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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 Jun 2006

Value for Money Report No. 52 — Provision of Disability Services by Non-Profit Organisations.

Mr. M. Scanlan (Secretary General, Department of Health and Children) and Professor B. Drumm (Chief Executive Officer, Health Service Executive) called and examined.

Witnesses should be aware they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce and send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Scanlan and invite him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Mr. Brendan McGrath is an engineering adviser in the Department and Mr. Fergal Lynch and Mr. Brendan Ingoldsby work in the Department in the area of services for people with disabilities.

I invite Professor Drumm to introduce his officials.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Dr. Mary Hynes is in the national hospitals office and Mr. Jim Curran is from the estates section. Mr. Aidan Browne is the director of the Health Service Executive's community services directorate and Mr. Pat O'Dowd is responsible for contracts with the community and voluntary organisations at large.

I invite the officials from the Department of Finance to introduce themselves.

Mr. Joe Mooney

I am an official from the Department's public expenditure division.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce value for money reports Nos. 49 and 52.

Mr. John Purcell

I will deal first with value for money report No. 49. In the past decade or so, we have all become increasingly aware that it is necessary to find better and more sustainable ways to deal with waste materials. Unless it is well managed, the disposal of waste damages the environment and creates risks to the health of individuals and the quality of life for communities. The costs of proper disposal of waste have also risen rapidly and are now generally linked to the volume of waste being disposed of. Good management practices are required to ensure that expenditure on the handling and disposal of waste is kept to the minimum achievable so that resources are not diverted unnecessarily from socially productive areas.

Hospitals by their very nature generate a large amount of waste. Much of what is produced is similar to normal household waste but hospitals also produce a substantial amount of hazardous waste material. If not properly handled and disposed of, such risk waste has the potential to cause infection or injury to those who come in contact with it and to lead to pollution.

When we commenced this examination, limited information was available about the amount of waste produced in hospitals or about the associated handling and disposal costs. We therefore carried out a survey of publicly funded hospitals to compile a more complete picture. Based on the returns received, we estimated that hospitals produced approximately 27,500 tonnes of waste in 2002, the base year used. Hospitals spent an estimated €13.2 million to handle and dispose of that waste. This does not include a fair amount of the administrative overheads but it is a rough figure. This is relatively small expenditure in the context of overall public provision for hospital services but it still represents a significant cost element for hospitals and one that may escalate rapidly if not managed. We are all conscious of the escalating cost of dealing with waste.

It was discovered that many small and medium-sized Irish hospitals had significantly higher waste output levels than their equivalents in other jurisdictions. Larger hospitals tended to perform better and were very much in line with those international comparisons made. A few hospitals have adopted policies designed to reduce the amount of waste being produced and some recycling of waste is occurring. In general, the level of recycling reported was low, despite evidence from an Environmental Protection Agency study that a high proportion of hospital non-risk waste could be recycled. Recycling is usually not cost-free but is generally cheaper than disposing of waste at landfill and so may offer potential for worthwhile savings in the future.

Approximately one fifth of the waste produced in hospitals was categorised as risk waste, which is much more costly to deal with than non-risk waste. We estimated it cost hospitals an average of €1,430 per tonne to contain and dispose of risk waste, compared with approximately €250 per tonne for non-risk waste. Hospitals need to ensure very effective segregation of waste to ensure risk waste does not get into the normal waste disposal stream and that only waste that needs to be treated as risk waste gets into that very expensive disposal process. Most publicly funded hospitals use the same private sector provider to remove and treat risk waste under a joint North-South arrangement. Almost all the risk waste collected from these hospitals is treated by disinfection at the service provider's plant and subsequently sent for landfill. Only approximately 2% of this type of waste produced in 2002 was considered to require incineration which is carried out in Belgium.

Individual hospitals reported paying prices ranging from approximately €140 to just over €450 per tonne to waste contractors for their non-risk waste. This variation in payments reflects many factors, including local landfill costs, distance to landfill and the degree of competition between contractors locally. Given the volumes of waste involved and the unit costs, ensuring competitive procurement of waste contractor services should be a priority for hospital managers and the HSE. Hospitals also need to do more to monitor the volume of waste they are sending for disposal. We found that none of the hospitals visited during this examination had adopted a clear set of relevant and comprehensive targets for waste management performance. We identified a set of approximately 12 key measures that could be used by large hospitals in assessing, monitoring and setting targets for waste management performance. Some good practice ideas already in use in individual hospitals are highlighted in the report to assist hospital managers in developing and improving their strategies for dealing with waste.

A hygiene audit of hospitals was commissioned by the HSE and a report published last November. The audit focused on those aspects of how acute hospitals were run that contribute to the problem of hospital-acquired infections. This included considering how waste management arrangements impacted on hygiene standards in hospitals. The audit found that many hospitals were deficient in that regard. In my report I make the point primarily that better management of waste in hospitals can help to deliver savings and better value for the taxpayer. I also refer to its importance in matters of health and safety. The hygiene audit report reinforces the point that hospital managers need to improve their performance in managing waste because it can help to protect patients and other hospital users from infection and injury.

Value for money report No. 52 covers the provision of disability services by non-profit organisations. I shall refer to the organisations as voluntary organisations rather than non-profit organisations. Voluntary bodies have a long and honourable association with the delivery of services to the disability sector. Some of the organisations involved date back to before the foundation of the State and operated for many years without State funding. Many had their roots in religious communities which enabled them to draw on their own resources to support their charitable activities. During the years the position gradually changed to one where the voluntary agencies became dependent on the State to finance the vast bulk of their services. This corresponded to a growing acknowledgement of the State's obligation to meet the needs of intellectually and physically disabled people. Recent legislative provisions have copperfastened the State's responsibilities in this regard.

The voluntary sector now provides an estimated 90% of all intellectual disability services and approximately 60% of physical and sensory disability services. Given that the sector now receives annual funding of approximately €1 billion, I was prompted to examine the appropriateness of the arrangements governing spending. The results of that examination are contained in the report before the committee. As the greater risks to public funds are in the area of higher spend, the examination mainly focused on the arrangements covering the funding of the larger organisations, typically those in receipt of €10 million or more annually from the State. In 2005 there were 25 such bodies, accounting for 69% of all funds disbursed to voluntary organisations in the health sector in that year.

At an early stage it became clear that although national databases had been developed to inform future needs and research, they were of limited value in assisting in the planning and managing of disability services. However, they showed that there were significant unmet needs and figures 2.1 and 2.2 of the report are illustrative in that regard. Tackling this need requires a more holistic approach to planning the provision of services and greater integration of services procured from the voluntary sector into national plans. To ensure services are being provided in the most economical way, it will be necessary to establish benchmark costs for the different services and compare them with the cost of direct and indirect provision with due regard to standards of care.

While arrangements with the voluntary bodies have become more formal in recent times, service agreements, etc. need to be further developed to give assurance that the money is properly spent and delivering what is intended. It is important to move away from the incremental basis for funding to an approach that more clearly links funding to dependency levels of service recipients. The cases cited in chapter 4 are examples of what can happen in the absence of such an approach. I do not suggest a one-size-fits-all approach. Arrangements should be cognisant of the scale of operation and the need to distinguish between grant assistance for local effort and the procurement of what are effectively mainline health services. At central level, management accounting and information systems in the HSE need improvement in order that there will be data relevant to managing its relationship with the voluntary agencies. Ultimately, performance management systems will need to be developed to facilitate evaluation of the achievement of the strategic aims and objectives of the service.

The new challenges facing the State in servicing the disability sector and the attendant additional cost of doing so will require a review of procurement methods, a specification of services that aligns with the assessed needs of clients and a mechanism to ensure compliance with standards. This, in turn, points to the need for greater accountability, transparency and corporate governance within the State-funded voluntary sector. All of this must be set in the context of the capacity of organisations to sustain themselves in an environment of increasing legislation, policy, regulation, fiscal frameworks and a reduction in volunteering. Long-term sustainability of the current delivery model may depend on developing strategic partnerships with the main players and effective monitoring of emerging trends and patterns in service provision. I am aware that the HSE has started to address these and other issues identified in the report and other studies undertaken that predate my report. I will leave it to the Accounting Officer to elaborate on these developments.

Before I call on the Accounting Officer, one of the conclusions in the report was that at least one organisation had adopted a kind of custodial rather than a caring culture. Did the Comptroller and Auditor General find that this was widespread? Was it confined to one organisation and was it a significant provider? With what area of disability did it deal? Were these tendencies found elsewhere and what were the root causes?

Mr. Purcell

We did not discover that in the course of the examination because that was not its purpose. At the time this case was widely reported in the media, in which the details were set out. While I refer to it, I do not identify the body by name in the report but I believe it is fairly well known. I cannot say whether it was typical of other similar institutions. I do not feel it is within my mandate to establish whether proper standards of care are being met. That is a matter for the HSE inspectorate. I stated in my report that the granting of funds to finance activities and the services voluntary organisations delivered did not convey an access right to the HSE or the health boards. However, in many specific instances access was granted particularly where consultancy work was being carried out.

Mr. Scanlan

I welcome the opportunity to address the committee on these two reports. I will try not to go over the same ground as Professor Drumm of the HSE.

The report, Waste Management in Hospitals, was completed in March 2005 and published in June last year. The findings on health care risk waste are generally positive. The report identifies areas where improvements can be made, particularly in the management of non-risk waste.

Under the Waste Management Act 1996, individual hospitals have primary responsibility for the waste they produce. The Department's involvement related to the more problematic and specialised area of health care risk waste. In the past the health board structure did not provide for the national co-ordination to manage this waste. The report confirms there is general acceptance by health service personnel of the principles outlined in the Department's 1994 health services waste policy, the aim of which was to bring about consistent and environmentally conscious practices and, at the same time, an improvement in health and safety conditions for those dealing with waste.

The main emphasis was on health care risk waste but the principles outlined were considered applicable to all waste. As noted in the report, a separate detailed guidance document on the segregation, storage and packaging of risk waste was issued by the Department and has been updated twice. The latest version was issued in April 2004. As the report points out, there have been significant changes in practices and circumstances since the policy was issued. I agree, therefore, that it may now be timely to review the policy framework and principles guiding health care waste management. I am aware that Professor Drumm is to update the committee on what has taken place. We are happy to co-operate with the HSE in advancing that process in any way we can.

I am pleased there has been close co-operation with the authorities in Northern Ireland in respect of risk waste disposal. A joint waste management board was established to investigate available options for disposal and, if considered to be of mutual benefit, to pursue a single procurement process for a service on an all-Ireland basis. The board comprises personnel from the two Departments and the health services in each jurisdiction. As a result of the efforts of the joint waste management board, we now have in place a modern treatment system which complies with extremely high disinfection and environmental standards. Approximately 97% of the health care risk waste generated in all our hospitals has been successfully treated in this manner in the past six years. The remaining 3% continues to be sent abroad under licence for incineration in high temperature hazardous waste incinerators.

In the case of non-risk waste, it was considered that the most appropriate means of disposal was to follow the municipal or commercial disposal route, having due regard to the potential benefits of recycling, subject to the controls of the local waste authorities. The Department welcomes the focus in the report on areas where there is the potential for securing cost-efficiencies in disposing of non-risk waste.

Credit is due to health agencies and their staff for the work done to date in implementing the changes necessary to achieve better waste management. This has included extensive training and education of personnel directly involved in delivering health care services to patients. In general, staff conscientiously separate and segregate the different waste streams at ward level. This should provide a good foundation for further progress to be achieved in line with the potential identified in the report.

The report on the provision of disability services by non-profit organisations was completed in December 2005 and published in March this year. It examines the framework within which non-profit organisations deliver disability services and how these services are monitored and evaluated. It describes the funding relationships between the statutory and non-profit sectors. Historically, a number of agencies dealt directly with the Department as the funding authority but since publication of Enhancing the Partnership in 1996, the health boards, now the HSE, have been the main statutory partners in the relationship.

The report identifies a number of weaknesses in the current arrangements and proposes remedial action, including higher levels of monitoring and greater formality of contracting arrangements based on the nature and scale of services. It acknowledges the need for proportionality, as the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned, including, importantly, the need for different approaches depending on whether the State is procuring services or supporting good causes by way of grants. It recommends that any restructuring of the service should be based on clearly articulated agreements setting out the respective roles of the State, as funder, and the service provider. It also highlights requirements relating to the standardisation of services, good governance and greater accountability.

Historically, non-statutory agencies developed in the disability sector to meet specific identified needs which were not being met by the statutory services. These agencies have played a crucial role in the overall development of services during the years. However, because of the manner in which statutory and non-statutory services have developed, there are inconsistencies in access to services and the level of support available.

The report is particularly timely in the context of the overall health service reform programme and the national disability strategy. The development of a single, unified health and personal social service is a central element of the health reform programme. Another key element has to be greater transparency in the resources being invested in services and the outputs and outcomes being delivered in return.

The national disability strategy was launched by the Taoiseach in September 2004. It includes new legislation, the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004, the Disability Act 2005 and the Comhairle (Amendment) Bill 2004. It also includes the six outline sectoral plans published by Departments at the time and the multi-annual investment programme announced in budget 2005. The Disability Act 2005, in particular, puts the onus on the Department to redefine policy in accordance with the new law. The principle of equity is brought into sharp focus by the Act which, for the first time, provides a statutory right to an assessment of individual need, leading, in turn, to a service statement and, if required, access to an independent redress mechanism. Services identified in the assessment will be provided where practicable and subject to resources. Implementation of the Act will bring greater transparency in regard to needs, services and service gaps.

There are, therefore, a number of common elements to be found in the reform programme, the disability strategy and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. These include equity in access to services, consistency or standardisation, standards and quality, greater transparency, improved governance and accountability. I am pleased to inform the committee that the Department and HSE are taking steps to address these issues. The Department's sectoral plan for disability services is at a very advanced stage of preparation and will be published next month. In accordance with the Disability Act, it will describe the proposed arrangements for implementation of Part 2 of the Act, including the establishment of a statutory, independent assessment of needs process.

The Department has carried out a strategic review of existing specialist health service provision for people with disabilities. A document setting out the key findings will be finalised later this year. Considerable work has also been done by the Department in collaboration with the National Disability Authority on the preparation of draft national standards for disability services. These draft standards have been referred to the interim Health Information and Quality Authority.

Following consideration of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the Department has taken action on a number of other fronts, including engaging with the HSE on the protocols for monitoring expenditure; starting discussions with the Health Research Board on the practical implications of amalgamating existing databases; and asking the HSE to produce national guidelines for funding non-statutory agencies, including application processes, the decision-making process, governance requirements, monitoring and evaluation. In addition, the Department will participate in a cross-agency working group with the HSE and the major umbrella bodies in the sector to review the overall partnership framework. As part of this review, it will seek to achieve greater transparency in financial reporting; specific proposals to minimise administrative costs; scope for greater collaboration and the sharing of resources and facilities by various agencies; specification of desired outcomes and service agreements; an effective monitoring system; improvements in management, accounting and information systems; standardisation of care packages; introduction of cost bands; and an examination of the capacity of the non-profit sector to deliver an increased programme efficiently.

The Disability Act is based on individual assessments and service statements, implementation and monitoring of standards, and better use of information on needs and services in the form of enhanced client databases and improved service planning.

The Act will require the development of a different approach to service procurement and delivery. This will include service agreements between the HSE and service providers which are based on meeting an agreed number of clients' needs, as set out in their service statements, rather than the current system of block grants. The move to service statements will require greater specificity about the services to be provided to named people. It will also involve the HSE having a clear view of service needs and channelling funding for the delivery of the necessary services to those organisations which are able to demonstrate that they are already delivering effective and high quality services.

The Department is committed to working with the HSE to ensure the issues raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report are comprehensively addressed as part of the national disability strategy and the overall health service reform programme.

May we publish that statement?

Mr. Scanlan

Yes.

Professor Drumm

I commend the Comptroller and Auditor General for the preparation of both reports. The report on disability services by non-profit organisations will widely inform us on more than disability services because of our major involvement with the voluntary sector in other areas. The reports are fair and balanced and will serve as a very useful resource and guide for the HSE's substantial change agenda for the delivery of disability services and the development by the HSE of a robust strategy for improving waste management in hospitals.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on value for money examination of waste management in hospitals was the first national audit of health care waste within the health service. It was based on a survey carried out for the year 2002 and published in March 2005. This report is a timely reminder of the costs associated with the handling and disposal of waste and together with other public initiatives, such as the Race against Waste campaign, has helped to raise awareness about the importance of waste management in hospitals.

In 2002 the total quantity of waste produced by publicly-funded hospitals was estimated at 27,500 tonnes, which included 5,300 tonnes of risk waste. In 2005 these figures increased to 30,500 tonnes, which included 6,500 tonnes of risk waste. This increase in waste production reflects the increased activity in the hospitals, especially in terms of day cases, which causes a lot of risk waste. It also should be noted that all waste produced in the hospitals is now weighed prior to disposal. This was not the case in 2002.

In 2002 the cost of risk waste treatment and disposal was €870 per tonne. The present cost is €1,050 per tonne, which was agreed under an all-Ireland contract, although the Comptroller and Auditor General has estimated a higher figure. The average cost of non-risk waste disposal is approximately €270 per tonne. This cost includes contractor lift costs, compactor-bin rental, landfill costs and Government landfill tax.

Since the publication of the report, the HSE has addressed the good practice notes included in the report and is taking action. We are cutting down on the amount of waste produced. The HSE has adopted a procurement policy that encourages and persuades suppliers to investigate and introduce environmentally-friendly processes and products. It also requires suppliers to remove excess packaging before delivery or to take back packaging material after delivery. Visitors are encouraged not to leave waste behind on hospital wards and food waste reduction initiatives are being introduced in hospitals.

Since the publication of the report all hospitals have increased the amount of waste that is recycled and currently about 25% of non-risk waste is recycled. Recycling initiatives have taken place throughout the country including cooking oil, cardboard, metal, paper, glass, electronic waste and confidential paper. The composting of food waste is now being undertaken in most areas. This will result in a significant environmental benefit and cost saving, as composting results in a reduction of 25% to 30% of landfill waste disposal. All staff employed on wards and in clinical areas receive training on the segregation and handling of waste. They are also made aware of recycling programmes that operate in the hospital site.

As a result of the restructuring of the HSE opportunities will arise to obtain more advantageous pricing due to increased economies of scale. The cost of containing health care risk waste is monitored and variances from expected norms are examined.

Owing to the higher cost of excluded risk waste, which requires incineration, all hospitals are endeavouring to ensure only excluded risk waste is disposed of in the appropriate containers. Although there has been an increase in the quantities of excluded risk waste produced, this is due in part to the reclassification by the EPA of clinical by-products as excluded risk waste.

Funding has been made available in 2006 as a result of the national hygiene audit for the upgrading and securing of existing facilities in most acute hospitals. New hospital facilities include secure waste marshalling facilities as part of the development.

We are ensuring hospital staff are aware of the latest in good practice. All staff employed on wards and in clinical areas received training on the segregation and handling of waste. They are also made aware of recycling programmes that operate in the hospital site. We have also introduced the following initiatives: the introduction of environmental committees and green teams in a number of hospitals; waste awareness days and race against waste seminars have been carried out in various locations; staff induction training; development of a health care-specific waste training programme; designation of waste officers in acute hospitals; co-operation with local authority awareness officers; a national poster campaign on segregation and packaging of health care risk and non-risk waste; appointment of environmental services officers in three regions; national hygiene audits completed in 2005 and repeated in 2006, which had a substantial waste management component; and the acute hospitals cleaning manual, which is at final draft stage, contains a section on colour coding as this is currently not standardised across the system.

Waste management policies were in existence in the former health boards prior to the establishment of the HSE. A draft HSE waste management policy has now been prepared. Hospital-specific plans are being reviewed in accordance with this new policy and will also include key performance indicators working from the 2005 database.

Waste management, both at departmental level and hospital-wide, was included in the acute hospitals hygiene audit that was carried out in 2005. Since the publication of the results in November 2005, hospitals have given renewed focus to this area in preparation for the repeat audit which took place during February to April this year. A number of hospitals have reviewed staff responsibilities and designated a person with responsibility for waste management. Systems have been put into place to ensure documentation relating to the generation and final disposal of waste can be tracked. Hospitals have undertaken an audit of the waste contractor from the site to final disposal. The report of the second audit is not yet finalised but there are preliminary indications that the position on waste management in hospitals has improved in the past year.

The National Hospitals Office is also working closely with the Irish Health Services Accreditation Board, which has included waste management in draft hygiene services standards. Hospitals' compliance with the standards will be the subject of inspection and review. In addition, monitoring of key waste data is being undertaken at present in the larger hospitals. The designation of waste officers to all acute hospitals will facilitate the full implementation of monitoring key performance measures.

Risk managers, waste officers, health and safety officers and occupational health departments record and respond to waste related incidents, such as sharps injuries, exposure to risk waste etc. This has resulted in an increase in waste related incident awareness and a reduction in the number of injuries. The effective management of hospital waste is essential for the health and safety of patients, staff and the general public. The safe storage, transportation, treatment and disposal of hospital waste are important in ensuring that environment standards are met. It is the policy of the HSE to ensure that the production of waste is minimised and that the waste produced is segregated and removed in the most appropriate and cost effective manner. This report has been a major advantage as regards bringing focus fully to this issue within our organisation.

I will now deal with report No. 52 on the provision of disability services by non-profit organisations. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the value for money examination of the provision of disability services by non-profit organisations has proven to be an important exercise in highlighting public accountability requirements within HSE contracted service arrangements. The report deals with critical issues regarding arrangements between the voluntary statutory sectors and acknowledges the complexity of existing and historical relationships and the challenges now arising. In the context of the new restructuring of the health services, the HSE acknowledges the need for greater focus and engagement as regards regulations, evaluation and accountability and the need for further refinement of formal contractual arrangements and service agreements.

The current framework governing the voluntary statutory relationship has its roots in the 19th century and in the development of voluntary sector provision of welfare, education and health services. During the 1960s and early 1970s, an increasing number of agencies began to receive grant aid towards their costs and the health boards disbursed funds to the voluntary and community organisations principally through grants under section 65 of the Health Act 1953. These grants were aimed at supporting organisations that provided services to meet health and social needs that were ancillary and complementary to the health boards' services.

In the 1990s a working group was set up to look at arrangements for the transfer of direct funding of voluntary intellectual disability services to the health boards. The group submitted its report, Enhancing the Partnership in 1997. The report clearly articulated that the relationship between the voluntary sector and the health boards was one of partners in service provision. The key elements of the framework agreed included mental handicap services consultative committees, mental handicap services development committees and service agreements.

The roll-out of this process began in the late 1990s and was the first step towards formal service agreements with the voluntary agencies within the health services. Section 26 of the Health Act 1970 facilitated this contractual type of approach where an agency would provide services to eligible persons. Initially this process was intended to facilitate the 14 agencies directly funded by the Department but was extended to all 52 member agencies of the Federation of Voluntary Bodies under a new agreement, Widening the Partnership in 2000. This framework, however, has been one of developing a relationship of partnership in the delivery and planning of services in a rapidly changing social, health and legislative environment. The process of working out the details of contractual arrangements has been a developmental one and has required consultation over a protracted period.

As regards the wider context of funding for voluntary-community bodies, a White Paper was published in October 2001 that clearly sets out a framework for the State support of voluntary activity and for the development of the State-voluntary body relationship.

Sections 38 and 39 of the Health Act 2004 now form the basis for future HSE funding to the community-voluntary sector. The 2004 Act distinguishes between situations where the HSE is engaging service providers — section 38 — as opposed to supporting the general activities of agencies or groups — section 39. These new statutory provisions will facilitate the HSE to develop both policy and operational guidelines in its dealings with the entire voluntary and community sector.

Implementing the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is clearly extremely important. The establishment of the HSE as a unitary authority provides an opportunity to review and enhance the relationship with the non-statutory sector.

In this context the HSE has already taken the following actions: the individual cases highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General's report have been reviewed; a working group to standardise nationally the governance and policy approach and supporting processes for all funding for the non-statutory sector, including the voluntary-community sector, has been established and this we need to spread to cover our directions with voluntary hospitals; the HSE's obligations re service agreements and EU procurement law have been reviewed; a voluntary services unit is being established to support the overall funding process with the non-statutory sector; a review of the current disabilities database to enhance needs assessments and service frameworks for the future has commenced; discussions with the Department re the draft NDA standards of care have commenced; and the preliminary work required to initiate a review of Enhancing the Partnership has commenced with the disability bodies.

A new governance framework for the non-statutory sector is now necessary. The internal HSE working group is finalising a national policy, guidelines and procedures document for funding non-statutory agencies which include a policy context for funding, including working principles, as follows: clarity as regards the legal framework set out in the Health Act 2004 on the commissioning of services and the provision of grant aid; an overall governance framework regarding the engagement of external services providers; and the provision of funding to grant-aided bodies will be clarified.

A standard application process sets out qualifying criteria and standard templates for service agreements and grant aid will be established. A decision-making process sets out organisation requirements in each local health office area, the organisational and governance requirements of agencies, the decision criteria for managers and decision templates for signing off by managers. There will be standard national templates for service agreements and grant aid, including grants from the national lottery. The service agreement template includes provisions specifying the terms on which the services will be provided, templates to ensure the nature, extent and volume of services to be provided and importantly, requirements as regards monitoring progress of agreements.

The monitoring and evaluation policy will set out clearly: the documentation requirements — standard reports; the requirements and standards for review meetings to include financial reports, HR reports, activity performance indicators review; review of agreed outcomes; anticipated pressure points; compliance with standards, where applicable; and corporate governance. A review meeting template sheet must be signed by the manager responsible.

This documentation sets out different mechanisms and criteria to differentiate in instances where the State is purchasing services as opposed to where it is supporting voluntary bodies by way of grants.

As regards reviewing the partnership framework, discussions have been held with the key umbrella groups in the disability sector, that is, the Federation of Voluntary Bodies, the Not for Profit Business Association and the Disability Federation of Ireland. There is agreement to review the partnership framework. A cross-agency working group will be established to progress a new framework. This will require commitment from the HSE, the Department of Health and Children and the voluntary sector.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report recommended the establishment of a voluntary activity unit in the HSE to effectively plan and manage the relationship with this sector for the future. To assist the HSE management in meeting its governance requirements, I intend to set up a national unit to support the HSE in meeting its obligations. The overall aim of the unit will be to oversee the effective governance of the relationships and engagement with the community and voluntary sector and the increasing emergence of private sector providers. The role of the unit will be as follows: to develop frameworks and policies of engagement with the various sectors; to liaise with other State sectors with a view to developing more integrated approaches; to provide guidance on standard practices and procedures; to develop standard financial allocation models and standard cost bands to ensure the efficient and effective use of funding; to collate and analyse statistical data, including the maintenance of a national register; to develop a training framework for HSE staff working with the community voluntary sector; and to support the voluntary-community agencies.

In summary, clearly the HSE's legal obligations under the Health Act 2004, the public procurement law and the issues raised in this report require an increased emphasis on the relationship with the community-voluntary sector within a context of greater regulation, evaluation and accountability and the need for further development of formal contractual arrangements and process. These obligations must be seen against a background to date of a partnership approach with the community-voluntary sector at all levels, from the small community based organisation to the large voluntary providers.

The HSE has attached priority importance to the issues raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the related implications of EU legislation.

The concentration to date has been on clarifying the HSE's responsibility and developing policies and procedures that are consistent with accountability requirements. The HSE is beginning an active engagement with all major voluntary service providers to ensure that its obligations are being met.

I thank Professor Drumm. May we publish his statement?

Professor Drumm

Yes.

I welcome the witnesses.

I wish to deal with value for money report No. 52. My primary concern is for the people receiving care within these groups. The report states that the estimated number availing of intellectual services is 25,000, while 40,000 receive physical and sensory services. Approximately half of all persons with physical and sensory disabilities are not receiving the desired level of service. Given that the sector has approximately €1 billion available to it and that there seem to be some flaws with the database that provides this information, what steps is the Department taking to examine the costs involved relative to the level of service required by those in care and by those not availing of the services at all? How quickly are the Department and the HSE acting to ensure that they reach out to those who require care? It seems that the efforts made by the old health boards and the Department have simply failed. They have not fulfilled any sort of service obligation to the people who require services such as those to which I refer.

My second question relates to the management of the funds due to those in care. When representatives of the old health boards came before the committee, I inquired about benefits being paid into patients' accounts. What steps were taken in respect of the management of the benefits? What are the rights of those in care to spend and retain their benefits? Is there a protocol, as seems to be the case with regard to psychiatric services provided by the HSE, in place? This is also a service in respect of which the Department has an obligation to monitor that aspect of care.

Mr. Scanlan

The Deputy's first question relates to figure 2.1 on the database, to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. The report acknowledges that the database is not a complete database of all those in need or in receipt of care. In terms of the availability of data in the health service, this is one of the areas were we have better information. However, it is voluntary and one is not obliged to be registered on the database to receive a service. The Deputy stated that half of all persons are not receiving a service. If one looks at figure 2.1, however, one will see that 9% are without a major component of service. Others require service enhancement or change, which is a very large group of people, but it depends what one is trying to measure. I have seen figures for the database going back a couple of years and I thought this figure shows that quite a fair amount of service needs are being met. That is not to say that there are no further needs to be met.

The multi-annual funding package in the budget was additional to the existing resources being put into the service areas. One of the important features of that package announced in the budget was that it contained specific targets for the first time. There was a consciousness that, just as the report described the voluntary organisations, funding tended to be largely incremental. For the first time, the budget package set out specific targets on the nature and volume of services. We have engaged with the HSE regarding the 2005 package and we know what the targets were and what was achieved. We are doing the same in respect of the 2006 package. I do not accept that we have failed, but I am not saying we have succeeded either. We are about to embark on a major new approach to disability, underpinned by the legislation, by funding and by the sectoral plans.

The second issue relates to the patient private property accounts. Professor Drumm may want to say something about practices, but the legislation enacted for the long-stay repayment scheme has specific legal provisions governing how those accounts are to be operated. I did not bring the details with me, but I can certainly obtain them for the Deputy.

I would like to respond to what has been said. Lengthy opening statements were made and I only have a specific period in which to ask questions, which I want to use efficiently.

The findings of the report state that no mechanism exists that captures the data for the service statements specifying the services provided for disabled persons. It states that there are deficiencies in the way data on disabilities is captured, resulting in the existing database being deficient. The Department's measurement is, therefore, not accurate. Mr. Scanlan was about to tell me that the glass is either half full or half empty. I am looking at the fact that 60% of persons with intellectual disabilities are awaiting new or enhanced services or will require services by 2010. Approximately half of all persons with physical or sensory disabilities are not receiving the desired level of service. These statements are contained in the report.

With regard to the patient private property accounts, I am not asking Mr. Scanlan what the Department is going to do. I am asking him what audit has been undertaken to ensure that, during the period in question, everything was done correctly. Was an audit carried out and were the balances from the old health board system transferred to the HSE? Had this been done, the protocols might be in place to protect the rights of people in care, the integrity of staff, etc. Can Mr. Scanlan comment on that? The report states that the HSE does not have any legislative power to enter the service organisations to check the delivery of services in terms of quality or quantity. Is that the position? Should it not have been corrected in the initial stages?

I am not pointing the finger at anyone. However, in light of the amount of money and the 42 organisations involved, it might be of assistance if the latter were all listed. Comments have been made about the organisations that delivered the services. I wish to put this issue to the witness from the Department of Finance and I will take two examples from the report which monitored the delivery of the services. For example, it refers to a case in which a particular organisation which had received a significant amount of money did not provide accounts for four years. Did this ring alarm bells within the Department? In another example the report states that although funding for a staff complement of 203 whole-time equivalents had been provided, the actual number employed was 197. Moreover, the number of staff required to meet residents' needs was estimated at 291. These are tangible examples, about which bean counters would have had suspicions. It appears there was no overall review of services during this period. As a result, it seems the organisation concerned only had a staff of 197, although it required a complement of 291 to meet the needs of those in its care. What opinions did the former health boards or the Departments of Health and Children and Finance hold about this state of affairs in respect of the cost — the committee is engaged in a value for money discussion — and services being delivered to people with disabilities?

Mr. Scanlan should respond first, followed by Mr. Mooney.

Mr. Scanlan

I will try to be brief. If the Deputy is asking me to accept that the data are deficient, the short answer is yes. I simply make the point that I found the intellectual disability database to be better than the data to be found elsewhere. However, the report is correct to state the data are insufficient but I will leave others to judge whether the glass is half full or half empty.

As for the patient private property accounts, if memory serves, a previous report by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the issue was dealt with by the committee. It outlined the position dating back over a number of years. The latest legislation places the manner in which such accounts are dealt to be with on a clear statutory footing. In other words, I am not aware of any audit, other than the work which was done at the time. While I understand there was a compendium of value for money reports, I cannot recall the numbers.

The report correctly states the power to enter premises is not available. There are draft proposals for legislation to establish the Health Information and Quality Authority. Some time ago the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children published outline proposals and invited comment on them. The closing date for so doing was the end of May and the Tánaiste intends to introduce legislation in the Oireachtas later this year. The proposed legislation will provide for the inspection of residential facilities for children, the elderly and the disabled by the chief inspector of the social services inspectorate within the health information and quality authority. Although the matter is being addressed, the report is correct to state such powers were not available at the time.

Mr. Mooney

This report by the Comptroller and Auditor General marks the first time the relationship pertaining to the funding arrangements between the State and voluntary bodies has been examined in detail. In that respect, it is very useful. As this is the first time the entire area has been examined in detail, naturally it throws up issues and deficiencies, of which we were unaware before the report's completion. The Department of Finance does not investigate the position in respect of individual bodies or groups of bodies. It arranges for the conduct of business between itself, the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive, HSE, through the Estimates, in which it tends to consider the allocation of resources for a particular service or care category at a macro level.

As Professor Drumm noted in response to the report, it clearly shows that a reconsideration of the block grant approach which tended to characterise the relationships heretofore is required. The report states funding should be linked to service need, rather than the provider's capabilities. From the perspective of the Department of Finance, this is the lesson to be learned in this regard. We support the conclusion that service agreements are the way forward. Such agreements tend to result in a win-win situation for all the bodies involved, namely, patients, service providers, service purchasers and ultimately, the taxpayer. They will clarify the roles and responsibilities of the funder and service providers and help to enforce standards of care. They will provide the basis for monitoring, evaluation and future planning of services.

Does Professor Drumm wish to comment?

Professor Drumm

Mr. Browne will comment on the issue of patient accounts.

Mr. Aidan Browne

In general, in reply to Deputy McGuinness, I accept the point that the data are always questionable from the perspective of the Health Service Executive. The intellectual disability database is a planning tool which is not fully populated with quality data. We face an issue in that it was set up in ten health boards, all of which took a different approach. However, we have moved rapidly to standardise the approach adopted. Moreover, one must be careful in any analysis one might make using the data. For example, while they may suggest there is an unmet need, sometimes this may be a reference to a need which will arise in ten years' time when someone in a school setting at present will have a care need. Hence, there are discrepancies in the data. However, the HSE accepts there is a significant level of unmet needs. Moreover, it accepts that needs are met in different ways, not in a standardised manner. The executive is working through the investment package for the current five year period to try to move towards a standardised approach.

As for the management of clients' resources, there is probably a slight difference between the approaches taken by the statutory and voluntary sectors. The statutory sector has and has had for some time a well defined approach to the use of clients' resources on their behalf. Within the voluntary sector, many rules are applied. The current legislation relating to patient private property accounts clarifies the matter, on which the executive has worked with the voluntary sector for the past six months and an agreed approach to the use of funds has been worked out.

As for case 1, to which the Deputy referred, with regard to whole-time equivalents and so forth, it may be important to note that this matter did not enter the public domain by accident. It was an exercise in which the health board had actively scrutinised a service and tried to identify where the deficiencies lay. As the Chairman noted, a series of issues were identified, including the culture of care, as well as the manner in which affairs had been managed. In this case, the significant issue was that mentioned by the Deputy regarding the powers to enter and move go beyond the presented data. At one level, it could be stated the executive had significant data but poor information. One can only assess the quality of one's data by gaining access and walking the ground. I hope we will be able to address this issue in the future.

I wish to return to the Department and review the figures presented to the committee in the report. For example, I refer to the risk of over-provision. The report cites another home which received an increase in public funding from €127,000 to €652,000 during the period 1994 to 2001, although, simultaneously, the number of residents fell from 45 to 23. At the end of 2004 the annual cost per resident was €80,000. Did the Department have a handle on this during this time?

I have mentioned another case, about which I want a reply, in which €228 million was allocated to a single organisation, for which no accounts or data were submitted for four years. Did this ring an alarm bell for the local health board or the Department? How was it accounted for? How does one surmount the failure to account for such an activity with the health board? How does the health board do so with the Department? How is it hidden?

Mr. Scanlan

The matter to which the Deputy refers is between the health board and the voluntary organisation, not the Department and the organisation. I have seen HSE material which answers that question.

There are two Accounting Officers present. Much of the material in the report comes from a time when only the Secretary General of the Department was the Accounting Officer. At that time, the health boards were under the scrutiny of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is why I am directing the questions towards Mr. Scanlan. A member of the HSE may also intervene.

Before the representatives of the HSE answer, the Chairman is correct in his description of the relationship between the health boards and the Department. However, the Department had an overriding responsibility for the health boards. The health boards also had a responsibility to provide a service agreement but in many cases they did not do so.

Mr. Pat O’Dowd

Concerning audit accounts from the agency in question, the audit report highlighted the accounts that had not been submitted. The HSE has now received audited accounts from the agency up to 2004 for each service unit. We expect to receive consolidated accounts up to 2005 by the end of the month.

Regarding the other matter to which the Deputy referred where resources had increased but numbers decreased, one must understand the historical context in which this occurred. It makes an interesting case study of the change in relationship that took place. The service was transferred from a religious agency receiving grant assistance as a contribution to the running costs. When the service was transferred to a new agency, the latter inherited a cost base, staffing ratios and a care environment where residents were accommodated in an unsuitable environment. Over a number of years, the health boards and the agency agreed to improve services and, for example, provide individual living units rather than three people living in one room, which was contrary to the modern ethos of supervision of services. This changed the funding relationship between the Department and the agency. It had received grant funding and then changed to direct funding to cover the cost of the service. As outlined previously, the quality of the service was significantly improved and the funding relationship changed. There must be a clear link between needs assessment, identification of cost of meeting needs and the provision of resources. The new governance and accountability arrangements in the HSE strive to connect these three elements.

Mr. Scanlan

I agree with the Chairman's comments that the Secretary General of the Department of Health was the Accounting Officer for much of the period in question. I suggested referring it to the HSE because I knew it had the answers to these two cases. I did not attempt to dodge the question.

The Department should have had a monitoring system to identify the matters raised in the report. It never dealt with individual bodies. The report examines this by today's standards but that was not the way these agencies developed and were funded.

Regarding the level of funding being provided and the funding that will be needed if service demands are to be met, what monitoring process exists to identify the correct amount of money for administration? The balance should then be used for frontline services. Is there a formula to determine the fraction of a particular sum that should be used in administration so that the remainder can be used in frontline services? What protection existed to ensure this happened in the past? Did the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Finance or the health boards monitor this? What steps are now being taken to ensure the division of money is fair?

Mr. Browne

The HSE does not have a system to provide definitive analysis of the amount of money that should be spent on administration. This affects all services of the HSE, not just disability services. We must examine funding, most of which has grown on an ad hoc basis. As the Comptroller and Auditor General correctly stated, it has grown on an incremental basis. The HSE and the disability sector has worked on identifying unit costs of cases and has applied a certain percentage of administration costs to those. We have requested the voluntary sector to rationalise its administrative costs, perhaps through agreements across a number of voluntary bodies. As identified in the report, there are 42 organisations and each replicates the same administrative cost base. The HSE is examining the possibility of sharing services and resources to minimise the administrative cost.

In order to assist Mr. Browne in understanding the administrative costs that obtained previously, have the 42 organisations provided information on those costs? Can Mr. Browne base his expectations of future administrative cost on historical information? Would this be of assistance or is the HSE basing future costs on those which apply at present?

Mr. Browne

We are using current costs. Our historical data is not particularly accurate.

Does the HSE have data from the 42 organisations to which we have referred?

Mr. Browne

We have data from all 42 organisations but I cannot be sure that it is high quality in nature. We can receive information but we cannot be assured of its quality.

Professor Drumm

We must accept what the Deputy is stating. We do not have accurate data. We need a resource allocation model for services. This problem is not unique to disability services. We do not have a resource allocation system, whereby money is linked to the amount of work done, in our hospitals. Now that the HSE is a national organisation, it will begin to disburse all of its funds on the basis of clearer performance indicators. The resource allocation system will ensure that money follows work. This relates to the Chairman's comment regarding the identification of different models of care. What would clearly identify such models are the costs associated with a major focus on residential care as against community care. We see this as a critical development for the organisation at large. At this point, it will be difficult to refer to historical issues.

On the issue of waste management, it is amazing that the Department, which has overall responsibility for hospitals, is only now putting into effect comprehensive recycling programmes. For the past 15 or 20 years, householders — to the degree that they have been able to do so — have separated and recycled their waste. It is incredible that Departments have been among the worst in implementing Government policy.

I worked in a particular State institution — it was not under the aegis Mr. Scanlan's Department — and for a full month had the opportunity to closely monitor certain practices. Television advertisements relating to the race against waste campaign showed communities being covered by tonnes of waste. However, every piece of waste in the institution to which I refer was thrown into a skip and sent to landfill. That was only three years ago. Until recently, the position in the Department of Health and Children seems to have been similar. Has the Department gone beyond waste awareness briefings and are strict regulations on separation and recycling of waste in place for every institution and hospital under its control? It should not be difficult to implement and should be far less intractable than many of the more serious problems relating to the health services.

Mr. Scanlan

As explained earlier, it is not accurate to describe the Department as having overall responsibility for hospitals. In reality, individual health boards and hospitals that are not health board hospitals are the responsible authorities under the Waste Management Act. The Department became involved in the management and disposal of high-risk waste. I do not know whether the extent to which individual hospitals engage in recycling is as poor as suggested. The report suggests that some hospitals which tried it experienced problems. However, even householders who are committed to recycling experience problems. The report states that there is scope to do more. As I understand from what Professor Drumm stated, more has been done in the interim.

Is every hospital under strict regulation with regard to separation and recycling?

Professor Drumm

Mr. Curran from our engineering department will answer that question.

Mr. Jim Curran

It is policy to have recycling programmes in place in all hospitals, and materials that can be recycled are being recycled. Hospitals vary as to the degree to which that happens. It comes down to individual staff members on wards putting articles in the correct disposal bins. Programmes are in place and glass, paper, bottles, cardboard and vegetable oil from kitchens are all recycled.

Is it properly supervised? There is a suggestion that it is somewhat hit and miss in nature. A nurse cannot put a needle in the wrong place or serious consequences will follow. Perhaps this is not so serious an issue. It is simple to set out guidelines and make everybody aware of them, after which it becomes a matter of practice.

Mr. Curran

Guidelines are in existence in individual ward units in hospitals where recycling takes place. The degree of non-risk waste recycling has increased to approximately 25%. That is a considerable improvement from when the audit was conducted in 2002.

If all materials are considered, such as organic waste that can be composted, paper, glass, tins and other materials, that figure should be far higher than 25%.

Mr. Curran

The report states that the EPA suggests that up to 60% of waste can be recycled. We strive to achieve that target. However, we must use caution and ensure that waste is disposed of in a correct manner. It is important that waste is disposed of safely, as well as efficiently and effectively.

Increased awareness of recycling in general public households during the past four or five years has translated to the workplace, where individuals are more conscious of the importance of recycling. They recycle in their homes and bring the habit of doing so into the workplace. That has helped improve the amount of waste being recycled.

It seems that much more remains to be done. I will move on to another issue.

We heard that 25,000 people availed of intellectual disability services and that 40,000 availed of sensory and physical services. Has the total number of people with disabilities in society been established?

Mr. Scanlan

I am not sure. The CSO has a figure of 8.3% of the population, but it is measured through people completing the census form as opposed to data compiled by providers.

A figure of 8.3% of the population suggests approximately 300,000 people. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report suggests a figure of approximately 65,000. Does that mean a huge need is not being met?

Mr. Scanlan

The short answer is no. That figure is based on people filling in the census questionnaire. It does not state whether those people have a need. Clearly, some do but it does not suggest simpliciter that a huge need is not being met. It will not be met until a needs assessment for every individual entitled under the Act is put side by side with service statements that we will know clearly the service gap. The needs assessments will be processed over a period.

How long will it take to assess the real needs?

Mr. Scanlan

That will be outlined in the sectoral plan to be published next month.

The two reports are extremely incisive and useful. The obligation to provide these services for people with disabilities lies with the State. However, non-profit organisations account for 90% of intellectual disability services and 60% of physical disability services. It is well known that were it not for the tremendous dedication of these organisations and the enormous dedication and self-sacrifice of families, we would be faced with a dire crisis. Is it fair to say that the State has fallen well behind in comprehensively engaging with its responsibility to people with disabilities and has a long way to go to provide the type of comprehensive services to meet the needs that exist?

Mr. Scanlan

The Deputy has asked me to comment on a very sweeping statement. The Comptroller and Auditor General and I acknowledge the key role played by voluntary providers in this and other areas. The report describes the situation as having arisen historically. Today, we recognise the State's primary role in providing services but a completely different mind set prevailed in the 19th century. When the State was established, it was widely believed that the State should not interfere, for various reasons, with the services provided by voluntary organisations. The Deputy will understand the argument I am making and that somebody did not sit down to make a decision on the matter today.

While the report focuses on the need for greater transparency and specificity and for service agreements, it also notes that it is the Government's policy to support voluntary activity. If we go too far in the direction of pure commercial purchases of services, we will be in danger of losing something. We should also have regard for the strategic partnerships referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Significant expertise has been built up in recent decades by the families of people with disabilities. Given that voluntary organisations were of necessity involved in providing services, the issue of rationalisation and duplication arises. I do not suggest that the organisations should be crudely pushed aside but wonder what is being done to bring the organisations together to better use the money currently being spent.

Mr. Scanlan

That is a fair question. Mr. Browne may know more about the details but, for all the advantages that accrued from families and voluntary organisations, the drawbacks are a lack of consistency in how resources are invested, again for historical reasons, and services which are less cost effective than would be achieved through a planned approach. Rationalisation goes beyond the administrative overheads referred to by Deputy McGuinness to a sharing of front line service staff. I am aware that some agencies believe they suffer core under-funding and consider that to form part of the reason for the absence of service agreements. The HSE has been working with some of those agencies to understand the problem and to address some of the issues raised by Deputy Joe Higgins.

Mr. Browne

It is appropriate to acknowledge the Federation of Voluntary Bodies and the Disability Federation of Ireland, which have done an excellent job as umbrella bodies by co-ordinating a diverse group of service providers. We have actively engaged with them and they have been open to co-operating with us with regard to rationalising core aspects of services. The HSE has entered into a number of strategic partnerships with health service providers with a view to sharing front-end providers. Ultimately, we are trying to develop a population-based service delivery system rather than a system which is stratified into disability services, older people or child care. We will have to focus our efforts at the front end if we are to ensure the best value for the resources invested. Voluntary bodies acknowledge the value of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in highlighting these issues.

Unfortunately, as a code for cutbacks, the word "rationalisation" has sinister undertones and sends a chill down people's spines. Clearly, nobody here is using the word in that sense because we accept that far more core funding is needed.

The National Disability Authority was charged with devising national standards of care for disabled persons. The Minister was to determine the date for the introduction of these standards. What date has been set, what will change for people with disabilities and what independent body will assess the implementation of the standards?

Mr. Scanlan

We have worked with the NDA to produce a draft set of standards. The Health Information and Quality Authority, which we hope will be established by the end of this year, will be responsible for implementing the standards. HIQA is currently operating on an interim basis and has received a copy of the standards for its consideration.

We hope there will be no hiccup with HIQA.

I will address my question to Professor Drumm, who, as Accounting Officer, will probably have the information I seek. The report states that, in 2004, 25 organisations received funding of more than €10 million each, 75 received between €1 million and €10 million and 683 received less than €1 million, for a total expenditure by the State of €877 million. What are the top five organisations in terms of funds received and how much did each receive?

Mr. Browne

I am reluctant to make a statement on that at present but will revert to the Deputy with the information he requested

I am surprised that we cannot be given the figures in respect of cheques written in 2004.

Mr. Browne

The data has been collected but I do not have the information to hand.

Can Mr. Browne identify the five biggest recipients without quantifying the amounts they received?

Mr. Browne

Generally speaking, the bigger players are St. John of God, the Daughters of Charity, Rehab and the Brothers of Charity. I apologise but I have not got the necessary information to hand.

I ask Mr. Browne to supply written information on the 100 organisations that received in excess of €1 million in taxpayers' money. I thought the information would be available, as the topic is under discussion today. I look forward to receiving the information. The witnesses do not need to get down to the other 600 organisations, because it is small amount of money. The information will add to the big picture.

The next issue I wish to deal with is on page 24 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Paragraph 3.16 discusses the issue of core funding. The report states:

In respect of the core-funding element, nonprofit organisations provide aggregated estimates in respect of ongoing services. The examination found that, with a few exceptions, the level of supporting detail generally provided is minimal.

The Comptroller and Auditor General seems to be stating that there is minimal information provided with regard to cost of core funding. That is a theme running throughout this report.

Will the witness explain, with regard to the main organisations, which bodies have reported difficulties on the core funding issue? How is the matter being dealt with? Funding often goes up in some places, with demand falling off. The opposite would be the case in some other instances. I would like to hear a brief comment on the core funding matter, which some organisations see as an issue.

Mr. Browne

It is fair to state that almost all providers would argue that they have core funding deficits. We are currently engaged in a process with all of them, particularly the major ones, to validate core funding. In some cases we are quite satisfied there is not a core funding issue. In others there is a clear issue, and we are trying to pick these off on the basis of their significance.

What I find disturbing is that Mr. Browne is stating that some organisations have been indicating they have a core funding deficit. That has been examined and in some cases it is not true.

Mr. Browne

The assessment of some of these organisations of what constitutes core funding and our assessment is at variance.

Who is the arbitrator? Whose version will be correct if there are differences?

Mr. Browne

It will be ours, as we provide the funding.

I agree with that.

Mr. Browne

We make the decision.

Professor Drumm

I take Deputy Fleming back to the issue of a resource allocation model. Historically, all of our services have had little investigation of their core funding. There is no doubt that right across our health service we need to establish a more insightful approach to what core funding is, rather than placing a percentage on top of the budget every year. We are absolutely focused on our resource allocation model development. That is difficult to develop, as the organisations have large numbers of staff in place, which cannot be suddenly moved. The issue of core funding will be addressed in a resource allocation model system.

We seem to be dealing with this issue at the moment and it is part of our consideration of these types of report. This may be the first step, but the next step is to see the outcome or action taken as a result of a report produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

When will the witnesses be in a position to report back to us on the assessment of this issue? It seems to be a significant matter for some of these organisations.

Professor Drumm

The establishment of the resource allocation model is probably one of the most fundamental parts of this reform programme. It considers if we know what we pay for and what we get in return for the payment. We expect it will be at least 24 months before we have a resource allocation model that works. It will mean getting into every specific area of specialisation and indicating that we have put a cost to a service being provided. That is not just in a community, but in a hospital.

Professor Drumm is speaking broadly about the HSE, of which this is one part.

Professor Drumm

That is correct. This must be dealt with within the overall context of developing a resource allocation model. We cannot go out with an approach to the voluntary sector that is different for disability services than it is for a major voluntary hospital in Dublin. We must apply the same rules to our own. There is no point in telling the voluntary sector to reach this standard while we do not apply a resource allocation model to our own system, which is not exactly clear on its base funding and how it is applied.

With regard to the top 25 organisations, which receive over €10 million, there must be some conclusion regarding the core funding deficit, presumably before the current or next round of funding is agreed. At that level of achievement, all future plans may not be put in place. I expect a conclusion to be reached on whether a core deficit exists with those 25. If funding is being provided for the future, that is an essential ingredient. The committee may be provided with such information in due course.

Professor Drumm

Absolutely.

That is fine.

Mr. Scanlan

I agree with Professor Drumm's comments. I have mentioned before the particular sector we are dealing with. Extra money was provided this year, which was far more than a gesture. It was a fund to try to meet the most pressing core funding deficits to the extent that they were verified and established.

With regard to those organisations which received funding, how many people would be employed in the organisations which received €877 million? There are more than 100,000 in the health services. Are those people factored into the total employment one would normally speak of involving the HSE, or are they additional health services?

Professor Drumm

They are factored into the total. Perhaps Mr. O'Dowd knows the number.

Mr. O’Dowd

The ballpark figure would be in the order of 20,000.

Some 20,000 are involved with disability issues. How many people are served by or benefit from those organisations and their service?

Mr. Browne

We could only provide an estimate.

Staying with the same issue, how many people received residential care from these organisations during 2004? I am sure some would provide significant stretches of residential care for some clients.

Mr. Browne

The bigger providers are engaged in residential care. Over the past number of years, most have been trying to get a broader range of services going, moving away from core residential service delivery. The majority of the service would be residential.

I know the witnesses work at the coalface. For us on an Oireachtas committee and taxpayers to understand what we are talking about, will the witnesses give an approximate indication of how many people were in residential care being provided out of the €877 million fund? Do the witnesses know the figure? Is the figure in the tens or the thousands? Some people may have been in residential care for a month or two during the course of the year. It may not have been long-term residential care. Is the figure available?

Mr. O’Dowd

I think it can be made available. Residential care can vary from a person receiving five-day to seven-day care to an element of respite and long-term care. The figures can be ascertained and we can forward it to the committee.

Will the witnesses do so? They should use their own definitions but explain the figures provided.

I have been worried reading this report. The officials from the Department of Finance should listen to this point. I picked up several themes and strands, and I will read out some relevant sentences from different parts of the report, given that there is a significant element of residential care involved in the disability sector. The Department of Finance might comment on some of the quotes.

On page 18, the report states: "Although the major portion of disability services are delivered through nonprofit organisations, ultimately, the obligation to provide these services rests with the State". That is a direct quote with which nobody disagrees. On page 9, it states: "In regard to the monitoring of services provided the health service currently do not have any legislative power to enter nonprofit organisations to check delivery, either in terms of quantity or quality". The second sentence in paragraph 4.36 states that in one body a custodial culture had developed due to a deficiency in staff resources. The first two sentences on page 30 state:

There was a need to change the culture from one that is custodial to one that supports the residents in meeting their full potential in all aspects of life. Unqualified staff should be trained to deal with the needs of residents, with particular reference to activation programmes and activities of daily living.

Paragraph 2.21 on page 21 states:

The National Disability Authority, in collaboration with the Department, the HSE and the non-profit sector, had developed draft national standards for the disability services. The NDA recommended the standards to the Department in October 2004. The date for introduction of these standards will be determined by the Minister for Health and Children.

I get the impression that the draft agreed in 2004 is not yet implemented. Page 54, Appendix F, refers to the principles underlying any new agreements. The first sentence in Appendix F states: "The following principles should govern the content and agreements of non-profit organisations, whether contained in service agreements, provider plans or a combination of both". The third paragraph on page 55, the last page of the document, states: "These agreements should provide a right of access to the HSE to undertake inspections and evaluations".

I can summarise all of that by saying the State has an absolute duty to provide this service. The essence of what I have said is that no inspections took place in terms of what was happening in these residential institutions. Does that not echo what this committee dealt with over a long period under the Residential Institutions Redress Board issue? Are there any mechanisms in place and has any legal action been taken against any of these organisation for not providing a proper service? Are claims being taken against any of the non-profit organisations? The Comptroller and Auditor General said that even if those non-profit organisations are providing the service, the ultimate responsibility rests with the State. I am not suggesting there is a problem in that regard but there is a gaping hole in terms of the potential for issues to arise in the future. Can the Department of Finance representatives indicate whether that is possible? It is a finance issue first because the Department of Finance should examine the overall risk in terms of what is happening. Can the officials comment on the issue?

Mr. Mooney

Most of the specifics the Deputy mentioned are probably better answered by the Health Service Executive or the Department. The Deputy said that, ultimately, it is up to the State to provide services and financial services——

I did not say that. The Comptroller and Auditor General said that.

Mr. Mooney

That is what the report states.

Mr. Mooney

Where the Department of Finance comes in is in regard to the funding for meeting that responsibility. Mr. Scanlan referred already to the historical basis of how the services developed. It does not really matter whether the service provision is done directly by the HSE or by services purchased or procured by the HSE as long as the services are provided to those who need them. I commented earlier on the importance of service agreements in trying to link the money that was allocated to ensure it is spent where it should be spent and in a cost-efficient manner. When we deal with the Department of Health and Children, and any other Department, there is an over-arching understanding between both parties that the money we are giving should be spent in the way it is intended to be spent, that the people in receipt of the money should be able to account for it and that the systems and procedures should be in place to confirm that is happening. I said earlier that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was the first time this area has been looked at in any depth. It has identified key issues and, admittedly, deficiencies in the system that operated in the past. In the comments earlier from the Secretary General and Professor Drumm they talked about how moves are being made to address those to ensure a better system.

I understand what Mr. Mooney is saying about procedures in place but he knows that there was no legislative power to inspect these properties. He cannot say the Department of Health and Children can have procedures in place. The Department of Finance must know that there was no legislative provision to allow it have procedures in place. That is the reason I pose the question to the ultimate custodian of the taxpayers' finances. The buck stops with the Department of Finance.

The point being made by the Deputy is that a contingent liability may arise from the State's responsibility and the lack of inspection. That may or may not be the case but it was the case in other institutions and if that is so, it is the responsibility of the Department of Finance to ensure it can quantify the liability if there is such a liability and, if not, that it will take steps to ensure the inspection is in place. That is why he is addressing his question to the Department of Finance representatives. Is that right?

Yes. I am not suggesting there is such a liability but it is possible. I am not reassured that they can say there is not a liability.

Mr. Mooney

I cannot second guess or gainsay what the Deputy said. That could well be the case.

I am just making the point. I believe Professor Drumm wants to comment on it. That is the last topic on which I want to speak, although I may want to ask one or two supplementary questions.

The Deputy's time is up anyway.

I have highlighted various sentences in the report. This committee has been dealing with this issue for a long time and some of the sentences I highlighted echo previous situations and I would like clarity or reassurance on them.

Professor Drumm

As a new organisation we would like to see how this is moving forward. As a Vote holder we would be very uncomfortable in a situation where money was being handed out and we did not have any inspectorates. We are looking at establishing inspectorates across a range of areas, not just in regard to the voluntary bodies, but the question does arise. We need inspectorates, as a HSE, if we are to have any ability to not only monitor money but drive good behaviour. If people know we will not be in a position to inspect this area it will be very difficult to drive good behaviour. The question the Deputy left out is one that is a statutory issue, namely, whether we have the right to enforce that inspectorate. Currently we are not clear that we do and perhaps that is something we will need to discuss with Government because it represents a major problem for us.

I take it that from now on Professor Drumm will be conscious of it and will put it right in time——

Professor Drumm

We can only put it right if we are challenged on it. We are putting the inspectorates in place. I am not certain if they will stand up if they are challenged.

Were any cases taken against any of these organisations that provided residential or other care? Is there a mechanism in place by which the HSE would know that and, if so, has it handled any possible cases? It is clear from this report that the liability will fall back 100% on the State.

Mr. Scanlan

I confirm, and I believe the Deputy said it also, that the statutory power to inspect will be in the HIQUA Bill. The Deputy is correct, and it is an interesting perspective. I am not aware of any cases but I take the point the Deputy makes.

When the Department is finalising the next round of funding it might consider whether there are any issues we need to know about on that topic.

Mr. Browne, Deputy Burton wants clarification on one of the replies given to Deputy Fleming. You suggested that all employees of these organisations were included in the overall 100,000 employed by the health service. I understand how the 100,000 would include, for example, the staff of voluntary hospitals but I was not aware the employees of non-profit organisations or charities were included in the 100,000.

Mr. Browne

The question the Deputy asked was in the context of the larger ones. The larger ones are included in our whole-time equivalent ceiling but there is a range of employees in the non-profit sector that are not in the——

Will you write to the committee giving us the demarcation on that?

Mr. Browne

Yes.

Mr. Scanlan

To confirm, Mr. Browne is broadly correct. There is a superannuation scheme and it is largely a question of whether they are in or outside that but we can provide the information.

To follow up on the last point made by Deputy Fleming, if my memory serves me correctly quite a number of organisations in this category have made regular visits to the redress board regarding abuse of children in institutions. I recall one prominent group of religious brothers based in the Cork area who provide a significant level of disability services. I also understand that many other orders have featured as well as a number of other institutions of which I have personal knowledge.

Does the Health Service Executive or the Department of Health and Children follow the proceedings of the redress board? Certainly, in terms of both constituents with whom I have had dealings and personal recollection, significant numbers of the organisations have been up before the board and there has also been a serious number of criminal prosecutions in the courts against persons associated with a number of the care giving organisations.

Mr. Scanlan

I am not sure to what extent we follow the residential redress board. I was with somebody from the Department at the Judge Ryan part of the tribunal a couple of weeks ago. The point is well made and we need to go away and think about it. It is important to stress that nobody is suggesting this exists but it is a valid question. I have no more details, frankly, at present.

I am making an additional point. Where an organisation which is providing services for vulnerable people has had a history which is the subject of a tribunal of inquiry, would it not be appropriate that the history might be taken into account in current service level agreements? The level of risk the State is exposed to, and I believe this was part of Deputy Fleming's point, is likely to be even higher if it has been a matter for tribunals and the public courts.

Mr. Scanlan

I did not understand the second part of the question. There are two points. If there is a history there, perhaps it also influences one's assessment of the contingent liability. I also understand the Deputy's point about that history in turn. That raises obvious difficulties as well.

The redress board legislation includes a schedule of institutions. Could you cross reference those against the organisations which are being funded and write to the committee?

My next question is for Mr. Scanlan and Professor Drumm. Currently, if parents have a baby who is born with special needs and is diagnosed early, three immediate difficulties arise. The first is the manner in which the diagnosis is delivered. I am not aware if any comprehensive work has been undertaken on this. Where a parent has a special needs child and this is discovered soon after birth, one often hears stories of the information being delivered in a casual way with no support system in place, other than ordinary human kindness on the part of the doctors and nurses involved in the delivery.

Two consistent queries arise. If parents have a special needs child such as a Down's syndrome child, are they entitled, even if both of them are working, to a medical card? The award of the domiciliary care allowance appears at times to be little better than a lottery. The stronger the case one puts forward and the better quality of medical evidence one can adduce for the purposes of granting the award, the higher the chance one has in the lottery of getting the domiciliary care allowance. This is the cause of enormous grief to parents who are new to having a special needs child. This is at the start of the special needs child's life.

Are there any plans to have more transparency and more support when dealing with parents in the early years who are starting on this road and are shocked? They are obviously shocked by the fact the child has special needs but then they enter into this minefield of provision and trying to access services.

Mr. Scanlan

I can deal with some of the questions. Our sectoral plan is due to be published next month and I am conscious that I must wait until it is published. I hope that when it is, people will see that there is a more integrated way of trying to address people's needs. I agree with what the Deputy says about what, as a parent, somebody requires when not just getting the news but then getting some real help. We have discussed this with the HSE. A key part of that is the integrated service delivery that Mr. Browne spoke about, whereby it is not a case of coming in a door to be told something and then just being left to one's own devices to find one's way around the health system. We all agree this is something we need to do.

With regard to medical cards and the domiciliary care allowance, I am not as familiar with the latter. I would recommend to the Minister a much more transparent and objective way of dealing with entitlement and eligibility. A great deal of work has been done on the question of eligibility and we are in the process of finalising it. My view is that, with regard to the medical card in particular, there still seems to be discretion. Discretion is usually seen as a good thing but, frankly, sometimes I have heard others say it is not and that they would much prefer an objective system where one can understand whether one is entitled to it and if somebody says they are not, they have an appeal system. We have to do something in that area.

Does Professor Drumm wish to comment?

Professor Drumm

Dr. Hynes might comment on the communication issue. She has done a lot of work on that.

Dr. Mary Hynes

There is a widespread acknowledgement in the system of exactly what the Deputy said about how badly the news can be broken and, perhaps, how that can colour the parents' relationship with the child. There has been an in-depth research project ongoing for some time. It is not yet finished. Research sounds very cold but it has involved the umbrella bodies for disability and parents' views have been sought as well as those of the health professionals. That research is not yet finished but it is at the point where it is clear that good practice guidelines can be compiled from it. In the last four months of this year a pilot project will start in the Cork area to put those good practice guidelines in place. The intention is then to roll that out to the rest of the country over the coming years. There is much work being done on that aspect. Professor Drumm can comment on the service aspect.

Professor Drumm

From my experience, the Deputy hit the nail on the head when she said often the news is imparted reasonably well but then one is left on one's own. That is, as Mr. Scanlan said, the real problem of our health service, that we do not have at primary and community care level a health service that is responsible for providing all the services the Deputy mentioned, in terms of connecting one into the system and deciding who looks after a person. That has happened, dare I say it, because issues such as disability services, care of the aged and mental health services have all grown up in silos. What if one does not fit into the silo tightly or if one's needs go slightly outside the silo?

If we are putting all this money into disability services, it should go in at population level. In other words, people with disabilities should use their primary care teams and they should have the flexibility to use physiotherapists, social workers and all the people who are appointed across the service.

One of the dangers is that organisations, such as the national disability umbrella groups, will see that as a threat. They may feel that if all this money is not tied specifically to physiotherapists who only deal with disability they will lose out in some way. In reality, however, they will lose out more by going that route because when somebody goes on holidays the service is often gone. What Deputy Burton has outlined is really the major criticism of the HSE as a service provider, which is that at community level we are not providing comprehensive access. I will ask Mr. Browne to comment on the issues of medical card access and domiciliary care.

Mr. Browne

I wish to comment on the domiciliary care allowance because the example cited by the Deputy, concerning Down's syndrome, is very good. The DCA is granted on the basis of a child having needs greater than a child of the same or a similar age. With Down's syndrome in particular, even though the diagnosis is made at birth, the needs of the child do not vary in terms of physical needs until a little bit later. What has happened is that a judgment is made that the child does not have greater needs until they are two or three, when the domiciliary care allowance is granted. I accept absolutely that across the country we have had a significant variation in the DCA.

There is a perception that it is much more difficult to get either the DCA or the medical card if one is in the Dublin area or in another large urban area, as opposed to being outside Dublin or other big cities. I do not know if that is just an urban myth but people genuinely believe it.

Mr. Browne

We have established national guidelines both for medical cards and the domiciliary care allowance. That must be audited now. We are aware that the number of those in receipt of the domiciliary care allowance has increased by approximately 60% in the last four years. That would seem to indicate it is being more uniformly applied. I accept that in urban areas there is probably a larger bureaucratic executive dealing with these maters, rather than something that is closer to the clients.

Has anybody ever done a cost-benefit analysis concerning children who are diagnosed at or soon after birth as having a serious long-term situation, such as Down's syndrome? Would it not be much cheaper to cut the administration and state that such a child is entitled to a medical card and the domiciliary care allowance? Once the child has been diagnosed there would still be a problem with conditions such as autism or Asperger's syndrome. However, as regards many of the definitive conditions that can be diagnosed early, would we not save a lot of money on administration given the declining numbers of children born with such conditions?

Mr. Scanlan

I would make one comment and I do not mean to sound harsh or cold. A neighbour of mine is in a similar position to that outlined by the Deputy. Current policy is that medical cards apply to a particular segment of the population and it seems to me that one should be trying to target those most in need. While it is absolutely correct to examine the condition — it could be a medical condition as much as a disability — and perhaps look at the resultant medical outgoings that one might be dealing with, one is still left asking whether one looks at income. One could, for example, have somebody on a lower income with fewer outgoings. I do not wish to sound harsh but the parents the Deputy mentioned could have a very high income. Therefore, I am not sure one would have an equitable system if one built the allocation of a card around particular conditions. Within current policy I do not think that would deliver equity.

On the issue of empowerment, the Comptroller and Auditor General has an interesting example of international regimes and models of care services. Table C sets out the position in various countries. I notice our system is described as liberal and favouring market solutions, individualised risks and minimised State intervention. Would the Department agree with that description of the Irish service? In the examples of countries with a social welfare type model, including Sweden and New Zealand, the personal empowerment of the disabled person and their right of access are notable. In the case of intellectual disability, the right of access of parents and siblings is significant. Would Mr. Scanlan agree that in Ireland many people with a disability feel disempowered?

I want to know about the models the Department is developing. I have been involved for a long time with the centres for independent living. Many such people are intellectually able but may often be severely physically disabled with long-term conditions. Whether one is talking about personal care assistants or other forms of care, "Does he take sugar?" still seems to be the attitude. I do not know if Mr. Scanlan is aware of a famous BBC programme, "Does he take sugar?" The question was asked of the person with a disability. Are we moving away from that model towards one of personal empowerment of those with an intellectual, sensory or physical disability?

According to table C in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, it would seem the liberal model has the least level of personal empowerment. As regards intellectual disability, that empowerment has to be for the family, including parents and siblings who often have the closest connection to the person with an intellectual disability.

Mr. Scanlan

I neither agree nor disagree with the definitions used in appendix C. I am not trying to dodge the issue but, frankly, they are labels. I was the Department of Finance's representative on the National Economic and Social Council when it produced that report on social services some time ago. Basically, it said the Irish system has a unique hybrid approach to social provision. I am not sure that being labelled one way or another really matters. I accept the thrust of the Deputy's question, that if one comes at social service provision in a particular way it may have the sort of connotations she mentioned — a kind of dependency rather than a philosophy or ethos of independence. Our health services are supposed to be person-centred. I use the word "supposed" because——

They are not.

Mr. Scanlan

I am saying that in terms of the philosophy; I am not saying they are. I am acknowledging that straight away. My understanding of the Disability Act and the sectoral plans that are to be put in place and implemented, is that they are supposed to help people with a disability to live as independent a life as possible. I am not sufficiently expert——

The logical question arising from this report is whether, in future, money for disability will follow the person or the voluntary organisations, good, bad or in-between

Mr. Scanlan

I absolutely agree and I was signalling that in my opening statement, although it is not intended in any sense to go against the work the voluntary organisations have done. The Disability Act inevitably takes us towards an assessment of the individual person's needs. We have a given level of funding which will never be enough to meet all needs, so one must prioritise those needs. One must also decide how best to provide for them.

I wish follow through on the report on provision for disabilities by non-profit organisations, before dealing briefly with the waste management report. The comparison point — appendix C in the report — talks in general terms about the different systems and approaches. Is there any information on how the cost of disability is borne by different systems? Does Mr. Scanlon have that information? How much is borne by the State, voluntary organisations and by families? Is that data available?

The short answer is no. Some work has been done on the issue, the feasibility of what is called a cost of disability allowance. I am not aware that we have such information but I will check for the Deputy.

I refer to the organisations talked about in this report, the large allocations, the lack of systems to look at how money is spent and the overuse of money in terms of administration and under use in respect of front line services. At the other end of the scale, would it be fair to say that for organisations with smaller allocations, the way money is given by the Department of Health and Children is causing mirror-type problems in terms of how they deliver their services in that the level of funding may be too low or barely adequate and that the uncertainty about the funding on a year to year basis is causing difficulties and that it might be resulting in cost ineffectiveness?

I am not dodging the question but the money does not come from us but from the HSE. It came from the health boards in the past.

It comes from us first of all.

Absolutely, it comes from the taxpayer. That is a fair point.

I am not sure I follow the question because my sense of it with the smaller organisations is that one might be more into grant aiding than into service provision. I do not know if one can ever draw the line neatly. If one is into grant aiding, it would seem one is into a different business where one is acknowledging up front that one is giving an organisation help and not buying a service and paying a correct cost for it. Somewhere on the margin I have no doubt the Deputy probably has a point in that we are funding people to provide services but the economies of scale are perhaps not there. My understanding of what we are trying to do with organisations such as that is to bring them into shared services and partnerships so that one tries to develop the economies in a different way.

The Irish system, however it has evolved, is a combination of social and health services which have, to great extent, been provided through voluntary organisations which can be found in other comparable systems. This report talks about how that is perhaps becoming cost ineffective because of the lack of proper systems and the like. Perhaps it is a matter for Professor Drumm to address in terms of where the Health Service Executive stands. What decisions are being made on whether we continue with this system? Will we move to the model more prevalent in other European countries where the state provides more and more of these systems? Where does that debate stand?

The Deputy is getting into a much bigger issue which is a fair one but one which I do not believe I can answer, namely, the choices we make as a society, a country or politically in terms of how we want to provide services, be they disability services or otherwise. For instance, if individuals carry a higher proportion of the cost, it may — I stress the word "may" because someone makes a judgment about this — be offset by the fact that one pursues an approach to managing the economy and society which allows people to have more money in their pockets. I honestly do not know. It seems it is a political and a policy choice in terms of how one manages services. My understanding of what the Comptroller and Auditor General's report said is that there is definitely a need for better governance, more transparency and more specificity about what we are getting without losing — I keep coming back to this — the voluntary piece of it. We have a system. Do we try to improve it or completely change it?

I was not even going that far. The argument I make is in regard to cost effectiveness. A certain amount of money is spent and a certain number of services must be provided. What is the best mechanism to ensure that is done? Is that debate taking place in the Department of Health and Children or in the Health Service Executive?

Does Professor Drumm have anything to add to his opening statement on the way he sees it going forward?

Professor Drumm

If one looks at the other models and systems, many of them are provided through municipal authorities and not through health services. What makes our system different from many of the others is that we provide it through a health service system. Our mandate is to continue to do that. There is no doubt we will be in a position where we will have to use private providers and give them access. One will see that, from comparisons with the other systems in terms of the problems they have which are very similar to ours. European Union law will mean we will have to give them access to the contracts and the provision of services. One of the challenges is — this operates in the Canadian model, which is socialised — that if the vast majority of the employees of the large organisations are essentially part of our superannuation structure, then it is not exactly a voluntary versus private provider. What will happen all those people and salaries? I suspect they will remain, in some way, part of the Government pay bill. Mr. Browne would have much experience of this and might want to comment.

Mr. Browne

We are actively exploring better ways to provide the service. We have to take account of the voluntary sector in which there are many very positive things. Its ethos is often different from the public sector one and often appears to be more committed, although whether it is, is perhaps debatable. There is certainly greater flexibility in the voluntary sector and there is often a greater capacity to recruit which is particularly evident around what we refer to as the "scarce grades".

Our approach to delivering health services is moving towards a population base. It is only when we reinforce that message will we get different models of service delivery which are built up around the population base and not around major providers perhaps searching for business. We have a significant amount of work to do. We have perhaps had a rather paternalistic approach to delivering disability services. Disability is a social service and should have a social care ethos and not a health care one. There are many challenges there which are not easily met.

Professor Drumm mentioned procurement policy. Does the existing procurement policy focus on acquiring goods and materials which produce the least amount of waste or is such a policy being developed?

Professor Drumm

We have created a procurement division in the HSE because we procure up to €4 billion per year. We are one of the largest procurers in Europe and we need to develop this in a very co-ordinated way in terms of value for money. As we speak, this is moving to a separate division in the organisation. I cannot answer the question on whether procurement is focused on avoiding waste but Mr. Curran might be able to do so.

Mr. Curran

Our procurement policy in terms of packaging and delivery of products to the health service is that excess packaging is removed and taken back. Is the Deputy asking how the goods we procure are produced in the factory?

How much of the goods the HSE receives is needed and retained and how much does it have to get rid of? Those are the types of questions it should ask before it even addresses the question of waste disposal. Is the HSE doing that?

Mr. Curran

Our policy would be to reduce or minimise the amount of waste we produce. Obviously, that would be taken into account in terms of what we procure in the first instance, and how it is procured.

The report outlined the difficulties of different standards in hospitals, and particularly between smaller and larger hospitals. Does the establishment of the Health Service Executive allow the opportunity to deal with recycling on a collective basis and could economies of scale be achieved that way?

Mr. Curran

Recycling is a site specific issue in that items are recycled on site. Achieving the best value from our recyclable material can be done on an organisational basis.

Does Mr. Purcell care to comment?

Mr. Purcell

Perhaps there are some contextual comments. That is all at this stage, certainly in regard to the disability services provided by the non-profit or voluntary sector. It is a vast area. The scale and scope of today's discussion points highlights the difficulty of trying to address the matter. The experts in doing that are those before the committee and the people behind them. I am not an expert in that respect.

In producing this report and deciding to address this difficult issue I certainly saw the difficulties in the health board regime of attempting to get some kind of unified approach to address this entire area. Also, in auditing the health boards we came across specific problems on service agreements and on control over the funding disbursed. The advent of the legislation, which, as Mr. Scanlon stated, was very much centred on the needs of the individual, brought us into an entirely new regime. In addition, there is a great deal more money going into the area. That is the context of the report.

The report was produced to be helpful to the HSE, to the Department and to the voluntary sector. I received a good response to it from the voluntary sector, who were co-operative in giving access to my office's people in preparing this report.

The other report is slight by comparison. The basis for that report was the survey carried out. In terms of responses to the survey, we had a 99% response from hospitals, not only the State hospitals but also the voluntary hospitals, which did not have to bother co-operating and which have a great deal to be getting on with. It helped us to come up with the kind of base-line data which could be used for the future.

Both reports focus on trying to look forward and add value more than on accountability issues. To take what Deputy Boyle stated on the hospital waste management report, the report tries to identify good practice and in a sense help ensure that such good practice would be disseminated. Deputy Boyle spoke of cutting down on the amount of waste produced. The report, in good practice note one, refers to ensuring that all purchasing contracts include clauses covering how packaging will be dealt with, asking suppliers to cut down on the amount of packaging they use when delivering goods and requiring suppliers to take back bulky packaging. This is to address waste at its origin and to reduce the amount involved.

There is so much one could say about the reports but I would be repeating much of what has gone before. I hope both reports, but particularly the one on provision of disability services, act in some way as a catalyst, when taken with the other studies that have been carried out, to help identify the problems and to suggest in so far as we can, how they might be addressed.

Is it agreed that we dispose of Value for Money Report No. 49 and the Value for Money Report No. 52? Agreed.

There is no other business. Our agenda for Thursday, 6 July 2006 is the Bord na gCon accounts 2004.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.45 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 6 July 2006.

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