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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 6 Jul 2006

Independent Report on “Certain Matters Affecting Bord na gCon”.

Mr. P. Furlong (Secretary General, Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism) and Mr. M. Foley (Acting Chief Executive, Bord na gCon) called and examined.

I advise witnesses that we have some relevant documentation, namely a letter the committee received from Deputy Rabbitte, item 3.9 on today's agenda, and the report carried out by PricewaterhouseCoopers on Shelbourne Park.

Witnesses should be aware they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce and send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. I remind members of their personal responsibility for what they say during the course of the meeting.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I remind members and witnesses of the remit of the committee, and specifically the purpose of today's meeting which is to examine the accounts of Bord na gCon for 2004 and to consider the report on "Certain Matters Affecting Bord na gCon".

I invite Mr. Furlong to introduce his officials.

Mr. Phil Furlong

Mr. Joe Timbs is finance officer in the Department and Ms Carol O'Reilly is desk officer on Bord na gCon.

Thank you. I invite Mr. Foley, as acting chief executive of Bord na gCon, to introduce the Bord na gCon delegation.

Mr. Michael Foley

Mr. Paschal Taggart is Chairman of Bord na gCon, Ms Deirdre Roche is the senior accountant, Mr. Owen O'Doherty is the health and safety manager and Mr. D. J. Histon is the racing operations and welfare manager.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Purcell, to introduce the Bord na gCon accounts 2004 and the report on "Certain Matters Affecting Bord na gCon".

Mr. John Purcell

I took over audit responsibility for the accounts of Bord na gCon on the passing of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. Consequently, the accounts for that year onwards come within the remit of this committee.

The committee exercised its powers of scrutiny in this regard on 1 April 2004 when it called in the then acting chief executive on the 2002 audited accounts. At that meeting I indicated that I had given a clear audit report on the 2001 and 2002 accounts. In layman's terms, that means that I was satisfied that proper books of account had been kept and that the annual accounts were in agreement with them and gave a true and fair view of the state of affairs of Bord na gCon at year end and its income and expenditure for the year in question.

Members will be well aware that in the conduct of my audit I am cognisant of the special considerations that attach to State bodies in relation to their management and operation. These include adherence to a code of corporate governance laid down by the Minister for Finance and matters such as proper procurement procedures and tax compliance. At that meeting I stated that the organisation had shortcomings in these areas which had been taken up with Bord na gCon in management letters and at meetings with senior management.

There has been a gradual improvement in the control environment in Bord na gCon since the committee's meeting in April 2004. The fieldwork on the audit of the 2005 accounts has been completed and I expect to be in a position to certify the accounts in the near future. However, I was reluctant to finalise my audit report on the 2005 accounts until publication of the report commissioned by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism on corporate governance and related matters affecting Bord na gCon in the wake of the circumstances surrounding the termination of the contract of employment of the chief executive earlier this year, namely, the Dalton report which is on the agenda for this meeting. In this connection, the Secretary General of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism wrote to me last May informing me that in the course of Mr. Dalton's investigation certain matters outside the scope of his inquiry had been brought to his attention. These included assertions regarding certain financial transactions that had taken place in the past and inferences relating to issues such as tendering for capital projects and sponsorship arrangements. It had been suggested by Mr. Dalton that some of these matters might merit examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I wrote to the Secretary General on 20 June stating I was already aware of the substance of some of the matters which had been brought to Mr. Dalton's attention by virtue of contacts by persons associated with Bord na gCon and others with my office over the years. There had also been some anonymous contacts in this regard. I also pointed out that we had raised issues in our management letters that touched on certain aspects of propriety. I indicated that it was my intention to examine the matters further but that I would await publication of Mr. Dalton's report before finalising the scope of the examination. In the light of Mr. Dalton's report, the continuing doubts being cast upon the organisation in matters of propriety and my office's audit findings up to and including the 2005 accounts, I have concluded that an examination is warranted into the procurement of certain capital works and services and related matters to try to establish the factual position once and for all on the principal issues having a significant financial dimension. My office had already notified Bord na gCon informally that I intended to carry out such an examination. Now that the Dalton report has been published, my office has written to Bord na gCon outlining the parameters of the examination. I will report the findings to Dáil Éireann in due course.

To inform the committee and help it in the conduct of the meeting, will Mr. Purcell outline in more precise terms the scope of the inquiry he intends to carry out?

Mr. Purcell

To a certain extent, the examination will be exploratory. However, there are certain areas at which we will look that I can outline for the benefit of the committee. One is the procurement of building and ancillary works at Shelbourne Park during the period 2000 to 2002. This will cover issues, some of which were included in the original terms of reference for the PricewaterhouseCoopers examination commissioned by the board's solicitors in August 2002 — that is dealt with in related correspondence for today's meeting. There will be an overlap in that respect.

In broad terms, we will also look at the general procurement of professional services, the awarding of certain catering contracts and advertising and publicity agreements. We will look at the latest refurbishment works at Shelbourne Park — these were to be undertaken last year — which involved the payment of a certain amount of money to a firm which it was intended would carry out work but which was then scrubbed.

Again in general terms, we will look at some of the settlements and severance payments made in the past five to six years. Finally, we will follow up on some of the issues arising from our 2005 audits, some of which have their origins in events of the past. That is as far as I am willing to go for now.

Mr. Furlong

Arising from the decision of the board of Bord na gCon on 26 January to terminate the employment contract with its chief executive, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism requested Mr. Tim Dalton, former Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to carry out an inquiry into the events leading up to this development. The terms of reference given to Mr. Dalton were to review the allegations of shortcomings in corporate governance practice at Bord na gCon made by the chief executive of the board in his letter of 18 January to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and the response dated 30 January 2006 of the chairman of Bord na gCon to these allegations; taking into account the possibility of legal proceedings, to examine the circumstances surrounding the decision of the board of Bord na gCon on 26 January to terminate the contract of employment of its chief executive with immediate effect and to report, if possible in the light of the said legal proceedings, his findings to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. In any event, the inquiry was to advise on any actions considered necessary to ensure adherence to best corporate governance practice. It was also to consider the way in which Bord na gCon procedures dealing with doping infringements were carried out, comment on the adequacy of existing procedures and advise whether any changes or modifications should be put into effect.

Mr. Dalton presented his findings to the Minister on 5 April. They addressed the following issues: the allegations of shortcomings in corporate governance practice at Bord na gCon and the actions necessary to ensure adherence to best corporate governance; the circumstances surrounding the decision to terminate the CEO's contract of employment and the adequacy of procedures for dealing with doping infringements and the required changes or modifications to these procedures. On the advice of the Attorney General, the persons referred to in the report were afforded an opportunity to view extracts relevant to themselves and make whatever observations they saw fit. All comments and observations received were reviewed by Mr. Dalton who amended the text of his report in the light of these submissions where he considered this was warranted.

The report, as amended, was submitted by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism for consideration at a Government meeting on 4 July at which the Government approved publication of the report and authorised the Minister to implement its main recommendations dealing, inter alia, with the establishment of a separate and independent regulatory body to oversee doping control procedures in the greyhound sector, a fundamental review of greyhound legislation with a view to bringing it into line with best current practice, including amendments to the tenure of the chairman and other board members, and an increase in the size of the board from seven to nine members. The Minister will involve the board in the delivery of the changed agenda, including the evaluation of options for putting in place independent doping control procedures.

The Dalton report was published last Tuesday, 4 July. Copies were made available that afternoon to the committee. Mr. Dalton noted that in the course of his work a number of matters outside the scope of his investigation had been drawn to his attention on the basis that they might merit investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General. He brought this to my attention in my capacity as Accounting Officer of the Department which provides funding for Bord na gCon. As suggested by him, I have referred these matters to the Comptroller and Auditor General who I understand has concluded that an examination by his office is warranted to establish the factual position on the issues having a significant financial dimension. He indicated to me it was his intention to await publication of the Dalton report before determining the scope of his examination.

On Monday, 3 July 2006 the chairman of Bord na gCon wrote to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism indicating his intention to resign as chairman with effect from tomorrow, 7 July 2006. In accepting the chairman's resignation, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism has paid tribute to Mr. Taggart's contribution to the greyhound industry. It would be remiss of me as Mr. Taggart steps down not to acknowledge his central contribution to the transformation of the greyhound sector over the past decade or so.

In conclusion I wish to make it clear that the role of the Department was to facilitate Mr. Dalton in the preparation of his report and in particular to ensure that due process was afforded to everyone involved. At all the times the Department acted strictly in accordance with advice from the Office of the Attorney General. The Department's task now is to support the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in the implementation of the various recommendations made by Mr. Dalton in order to ensure that the greyhound sector, the vibrancy of which was acknowledged by Mr. Dalton in his report, can continue to prosper in a stable policy environment.

Thank you, Mr. Furlong. May the committee publish your statement?

Mr. Furlong

It may.

I invite Mr. Taggart to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paschal Taggart

Chairman and members of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am delighted to come before you this morning to outline the position of Bord na gCon and to highlight the very strong financial position of the Irish greyhound industry. I do not, as suggested in recent media reports, come before you to defend myself or Bord na gCon. I see no necessity to do this as I believe the industry's practices and its success speaks for itself.

I fully appreciate that this committee is the watchdog over public expenditure and I will be happy to answer all and every question which members may have concerning any aspect of the administration of Bord na gCon. I believe that the committee and the board share a common goal, which is to ensure taxpayers get the best value for their money. The members of the committee and I as chairman of a semi-State company must ensure this happens at all times. It will be more appropriate that some issues concerning day-to-day matters are addressed by my colleague Mr. Michael Foley, who is a fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland and is a man of the highest integrity and dedication. He is the board's financial controller and for the past seven months has been acting chief executive officer. In my opinion the board is very lucky to have a man of Michael's superb ability among its senior executives.

By way of background I will give the committee a brief outline of my role and some detail of what we as a team have achieved during my time as chairman. In 1995 I was approached by then Tánaiste, Dick Spring and asked if I would accept the position of chairman of Bord Na gCon. Initially I refused. However, Dick Spring, Ivan Yates and Jimmy Deenihan eventually persuaded me to accept the position. When I took on the role of chairman, I more than most was fully aware of what lay ahead. I had been involved in the greyhound world since a child and I was fortunate enough to have won an Irish greyhound derby with Dipmac in 1984. I was also very fortunate to be a close friend of Kevin Heffernan, the former chairman.

When I became chairman in 1995 the greyhound industry was in a state of decline and despair. Attendances were at 580,000 and falling. The morale among staff, owners, trainers and indeed all involved in the industry was at an all-time low. Our stadiums were mostly in a bad state of repair and many of them were in a scandalous condition.

In 1995 there were four main countries in the world operating greyhound industries — Ireland, England, Australia and the United States. There is no doubt that at that time Ireland was at the bottom of the table and nearly off the Richter scale. Taking on the role of chair was akin to trying to make Carlow all-Ireland hurling champions or bringing Kilkenny to an all-Ireland football final in Croke Park. It should be noted that Carlow are on their way to a hurling final because they were in Croke Park playing hurling last Sunday but they did not take on Kilkenny. This shows that everything is possible.

As chairman I set about putting in place the various changes and structures which I felt would transform our industry. It was going to be a long hard road. However, I love the greyhound industry and because of this I believed I had the passion and commercial experience required for the job. My colleagues on the board shared this passion and this made our job much easier. We more than most wanted to succeed because we genuinely cared about our industry.

We did succeed. Ten years on it is acknowledged that we are no longer bottom of the table but are now well clear at the top of the table. We are like Chelsea in the premier division. The Irish greyhound industry is now the world leader with facilities and structures in place that are the envy of our colleagues and fellow greyhound owners in other countries. I refer to some of the figures. Attendances in 1995 were 580,000. Last year they were a staggering 1.4 million. This year attendances at greyhound meetings may well exceed for the first time the numbers attending horse racing in Ireland. I suggest this fact alone speaks volumes for what we have achieved.

Looking at betting, in 1995 the total amount bet was €28.9 million. In 2005 this has increased to €141.8 million. Bookmaker betting has increased from €22.2 million in 1995 to €90.5 million in 2005 while tote betting has increased from €6.7 million in 1995 to €51.3 million in 2005. That figure is probably the most remarkable in that we have passed out the horse-racing industry and we were well behind them when we started.

Owners and trainers are the bedrock of this business. They have also enjoyed and shared in our success. Prize money has increased from €1 million in 1995 to €12 million last year. We received €13.7 million in Government funds in 2005 and we had considerable capital expenditure and still paid out nearly €12 million in prize money to the owners and trainers who are the bedrock of the industry. I believe that it is a reasonable record by any standards.

These figures clearly illustrate that we have enjoyed unprecedented and unrivalled success in our industry. This did not happen on its own. It was achieved through a positive working relationship between Government and the board of Bord na gCon. At this stage I would like to record my appreciation to the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue and the various Ministers whom I have had the pleasure of serving with down the years. Mr. O'Donoghue has been extremely supportive of the greyhound industry over the years and his regular attendance at our various events has always been much appreciated.

Over the last seven months we have had a certain amount of controversy — from my side, it was a lot of controversy — concerning a number of matters and the manner in which these were dealt with. I wish to record my appreciation to the Minister for his continued support during this period which was important to both myself and my colleagues on the board.

To deal with the controversies, because that is what the committee is here to hear and what I am here to address. First, I would like to deal with the circumstances surrounding the dismissal of former chief executive Aidan Tynan. There is a belief by a few that the dismissal of Aidan Tynan was in some way related to his position regarding the EPO findings in November. This is absolutely and totally without foundation. While procedures and systems are matters on which people may have varying views, the integrity of the industry and the seven members of the board who unanimously dismissed Aidan Tynan must be beyond reproach and must be clearly seen to be such.

The difficulties with Aidan Tynan arose in the summer of 2005. The board had become aware of specific changes which were being enforced which was creating low morale among staff at the various locations around the country. The deteriorating financial position was of major concern to me. I and my fellow board members let it be known that changes should be made in the reporting structures which would have returned to a practice which was in place before Aidan Tynan took up his role with Bord na gCon and which had worked very successfully. There was unanimous agreement among the board members. I stress it was unanimous agreement at every stage, which is crucial in the successful running of any organisation. There has been innuendo as well as hearsay, which is nothing new when one is running the greyhound industry, about the facts surrounding this case but I believe, as chairman, I must disregard all of this and comment only on what is a matter of record. It is a matter of record in the various minutes and correspondence maintained by the board. In this regard, I will now refer members of the committee to when the concern and disappointment of Aidan Tynan's stewardship first came to be addressed by the board.

On 29 October 2005 a board meeting was held in the Kingsley Hotel in Cork. It lasted more than eight hours. At this meeting a number of very serious matters were raised by me and various members of the board and an honest and frank discussion took place. There was a lot of criticism of the CEO and certain members of his executive. I understand members of the committee already have copies of the various minutes which I believe clearly show the frustrations and concerns of the board. We had firmly believed these criticisms would be addressed by the CEO. Despite the concerns expressed by me and certain members of the board, no contact was made with me to seek advice or discuss how the changes which the board believed were necessary would be implemented. In fact, it appears that despite more than three hours of heated discussion in which it was obvious that the board was dissatisfied with the way matters were being handled, all of the views and comments made were effectively ignored by the CEO. There is no doubt that this did not augur well for the December meeting.

The December meeting which was held at Shelbourne Park on 9 December 2005 and lasted six hours clearly illustrated to members that their views were being ignored. However, it also showed how the board's yearly surplus was being eroded with a forecasted outturn of €4,044,681, some €950,000 less than in 2004. This resulted in the board instructing the executives to take a number of remedial steps to ensure the haemorrhaging of cash ceased. Morale, not only among staff and track personnel which previously had been very good but also among board members, was suffering.

It had become clear to members that the instructions being given to the CEO and certain executives were not being heeded and that this matter needed to be addressed. In our opinion, Mr. Tynan had not the desire, ability or people skills required to implement the instructions and he knew that his position had become untenable. He had been considering his position since September and in what I consider was no more than a smokescreen wrote to the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, on 18 January making totally unfounded and scurrilous allegations against the board to strengthen his exit position. This letter naturally caused huge anger and bewilderment among board members who were still awaiting answers to numerous important matters they had raised with Mr. Tynan some months earlier. In my opinion and that of my six fellow board members, the sequence of events, as properly recorded in the minutes and records of Bord na gCon, clearly illustrates that Mr. Tynan was unable to carry out the role of CEO effectively according to the board's strategy and that he knew that his position had become untenable.

The board meeting of 26 January was called on 17 January to address the serious issues that continued to arise and the CEO's failure to effect the requisite changes. The calling of the meeting predated both Mr. Tynan's letter of grievance and correspondence to the Minister. The CEO's failure to address issues which have undermined the entire industry could have ruined all that had been achieved in the preceding nine years. I believed, with my colleagues and a committed staff up and down the country, that the substantial success the industry achieved in those years would be threatened if these matters were not addressed as a matter of urgency.

The meeting took place on 26 January at Shelbourne Park. As members of the committee will see, we move meetings around from Limerick to Cork to Shelbourne Park, to give various board members less travelling time. Mr. Tynan maintained that he had no obligation to discuss this with the board as he had referred his grievance through the board's employee complaints and grievance procedure. This refusal to assist the board only made matters worse. In all my years in business I have never considered it right or appropriate for a CEO to behave like this and it was a further display of his unsuitability for the position.

It was clear to me and my fellow board members that there was a fundamental breakdown of the relationship between the CEO and the board. I had, in fact, formed this view after the meeting in December when I was made aware that he had discussed his possible resignation with his colleague and financial controller, Mr. Michael Foley, who can confirm these facts. This discussion resulted in Mr. Foley discussing possible packages available to him if he were to leave. However, I was prepared to work with Mr. Tynan if he duly effected the direction of the board, not simply his own. I believe his failure to effect the decisions of the board and take on board the views echoed in October and December resulted in his position becoming untenable. His failure to advise both me and the board of his grievances in order that they might be addressed effectively meant that there was a fundamental breakdown in our relationship, a breakdown which, if we had not acted immediately, would have further damaged the industry.

As chairman and director of many companies, both now and in the past 20 years, I am aware of the requirement for due process but I am equally cognisant of the need for decisive action. I believe the requirement for decisive action in the overall interests of the industry significantly outweighs the ongoing damage that would have continued to be inflicted if Mr. Tynan had remained in position any longer. I stress the costs incurred by the board in terminating his contract were not significant in the light of the damage and cash flow deficit that the board was likely to incur under his continued stewardship. My overriding concern was to effect these decisions which were right for the industry, even if it had to be at the expense of adopting an alternative procedure. The industry needed clear guidance and direction, something it would not achieve under Mr. Tynan's direction. If he had been left in position pending formal investigation, the process of change might have been significantly delayed and very costly if any element of the procedures were to be challenged through the legal process. Members of the committee are all aware of how long legal processes take and how expensive they are. I am also aware that the courts are less likely to interfere with the effective running of an organisation once decisions regarding its stewardship have actually been taken. I stress the board took a unanimous decision to dismiss Mr. Tynan after fully debating the issue. I advised Mr. Tynan of this decision.

There has been a lot of comment about staff morale, as outlined in Mr. Dalton's report. During my time as chairman I always set out to have high morale among the staff. In the many years I have been there I believe it has improved out of all proportion. This was the position when Mr. Tynan joined as chief executive officer. Morale was extremely high. It is ironic that the minutes of Mr. Tynan's first meeting in October 2004 show that he investigated morale and stated it was high and that there were only three minor HR issues to be resolved.

Subsequently, to the board's considerable disquiet, the letter from Mr. Tynan to the Minister of 18 January miraculously fell into the hands of Mr. Charlie Bird of RTE who I stress proceeded to erroneously link the dismissal of Aidan Tynan with his stance on the EPO decision. Fundamentally, that is why we are here today. I ask myself the question, if we had just sacked the CEO and there was not an EPO decision, whether we would be here today. I would not be and members of the committee would be talking to Mr. Foley. I believe Charlie Bird started all this but I intend to finish it. Because I am taking a legal action against Mr. Bird and RTE, I cannot comment further at this stage.

On the EPO issue, I wish to address the basis of the control committee's decision not to publish the world's first EPO positive results. I will set out the background to the board's testing procedure and deal with the respective cases of Barefoot Jenny and Westmead Rumble. The board's laboratory only commenced EPO testing in 1995. We are not aware of any other laboratory testing for EPO positive in greyhounds. That we have the capability to do so is indicative of the board's commitment to best practice. The committee heard the wonderful betting figures I illustrated earlier. Those figures would not be as wonderful if it were not for the absolute integrity that exists in the greyhound industry. Punters are not fools. They are not mugs. They want integrity. They have seen integrity. They have got integrity.

In 1999, 1,000 samples were taken at our greyhound tracks. In other words, 1,000 greyhounds were tested. In 2005, this figure had increased to 6,115. Despite the increase in the level of testing, the percentage of positive tests decreased from 2.3% in 2003 to 1.1 % in 2005. We have invested €318,000 in laboratory facilities over the past five years. We have doubled the laboratory resource since 1999. In other words, there are now twice as many laboratory employees and laboratory expenses have doubled. We consider that increase to be worthwhile. Punters will confirm that there is a great deal of integrity in the industry, by and large.

The decision not to publish the positive EPO test was taken by a four to one majority decision of the control committee. As I have been saying over recent months, the duration of Mr. Tynan's total contribution to the control committee meeting of 21 November 2005, which lasted approximately nine hours, was between 60 and 90 seconds. It baffles me that he decided he was in a position to send a letter to the Minister querying the board's testing procedures, etc. The then chief executive spoke for approximately one and a half minutes over the course of a nine-hour meeting. The decision that was taken at that meeting, after careful consideration, was deemed by the majority of those present to be in the best interests of the industry. In other words, four members of the board decided that the details of that particular case should not be published.

At all times, the committee acted within its legal entitlement not to publish those details. Section 43(8) of the Greyhound Industry Act 1958 clearly states that: "The Board may publish in any manner which it considers proper the result of any investigation made under this section." I repeat that a majority of the control committee — in other words, all the board members — decided at that time not to publish the results of the test in the best interests of the sport. Mr. Tynan's contribution of one and a half minutes was made after I asked him what he would do in the situation. It is debatable whether he even intended to contribute at all.

The first case the committee deliberated on was that of Barefoot Jenny. The committee members heard veterinary evidence from Mr. Maher, who is a well-known veterinary practitioner. He said that the substance was administered for medical reasons, in particular to address a low blood count. The board also considered the advice of Dr. Jim Healy, who is its head of laboratory function. He confirmed that an effect of EPO could be to raise the red blood cell count in greyhounds. After long and serious deliberation, the committee agreed, on a four to one majority. that the findings in question should not be published. It did not take that decision lightly. It was far too serious a decision to take lightly. It took into account the fact that owners and trainers had been administering EPO for medicinal purposes. It took the view that certain owners and trainers were unaware that EPO was a banned substance.

This was the first time a greyhound had tested positive for EPO. Given that no previous guidelines had been issued by the board in respect of EPO, and in light of the general lack of knowledge in this regard within the industry, the board decided it would be unfair to publish the details in question. In other words, nobody knew we had been testing and we had not published any guidelines. If a similar result emerged in a sport like athletics or cycling on foot of the first test to have been carried out and in the absence of published guidelines, one would be taken to the courts and cleaned out if one decided to publish the details. Dr. Comiskey, who was present at my press conference, is the foremost drug expert in Irish athletics. He said that Bord na gCon's procedures were exemplary and that the board was to be congratulated on them because they were way ahead of the testing procedures in athletics in certain regards.

The committee decided that a positive test for EPO was a serious offence. We took the necessary steps to ensure that the obstacles which prevented the publication of any information in this case were immediately reviewed. We did not just sit back and decide not to publish the results. Looking back, I cannot believe we were so good. I mean that. We decided that a full set of guidelines for all known illegal substances, including EPO, and the relevant penalties in each case should be highlighted and published in the two greyhound publications. This was subsequently done. We insisted that every licensed trainer in Ireland should be issued with a copy of the guidelines. This was also done. We agreed that the fine for the use of EPO should be increased to a minimum of €1,000 and that offenders should bear the cost of testing, which is estimated at €2,000. We also decided that details of such offences would be published.

At the meeting in question, we spent a great deal of time considering our past and future responsibilities. If people suggest that Bord na gCon acted in an irresponsible manner, all I can say is that they must be some geniuses. We did more than any other committee would have done. We took it very seriously. Perhaps I am talking on the basis of my way of looking at things. I insist that I think we dealt with the issue in a very serious manner.

The non-disclosure of the positive test in the case of Westmead Rumble followed from the decision not to disclose the positive information in the case of Barefoot Jenny. Mr. Kiely freely admitted his guilt when it was suggested that he had administered a prohibited substance. He admitted that he had used it on several other occasions for medicinal purposes. He pointed out that he did not know EPO was a banned substance, however. The committee imposed the maximum fine of €1,000 in each case. In Mr. Kiely's case, a forfeiture of €4,500 of prize money was also imposed. The sums of money in question are quite large in greyhound terms. We are not talking about the sport of kings. We are talking about greyhound racing. Mr. Kiely lost €5,500.

The committee's approach to publication in the Westmead Rumble case was consistent with its approach in the Barefoot Jenny case. Both trainers were told they would get a red card — they would be banned — if they came before the control committee at a future date. I hope the members of this committee agree that Bord na gCon took the EPO matter very seriously and that the fines and forfeits of prize money were substantial for the trainers concerned. I am firmly of the view that the board's approach shows that despite Mr. Aidan Tynan's allegations, the Irish greyhound industry takes the issue of drug abuse in the sport seriously.

The Irish industry is a world leader in this field. As Mr. Tynan admitted to the Minister, "the Board had previously allocated the necessary resources to give the laboratory this capability and it has become the first in the world to have been able to identify the presence of EPO in greyhounds". I draw attention to Mr. Tynan's use of the phrase "first in the world". We are world leaders in everything, including EPO detection.

I will read a statement that is not part of the document I submitted to the committee. It is quite a reactive statement. I hope the Chairman does not mind me reading it out.

Go ahead.

Mr. Taggart

It may cause some controversy, but it is something I have to say at this point. There is one further matter I wish to address. Over recent months, I and the greyhound industry have been the subject of a number of unfair and incorrect comments by Pat Rabbitte and certain members of the Labour Party.

I draw Mr. Taggart's attention to what I said at the start. While witnesses have some degree of privilege, they do not enjoy absolute privilege.

Mr. Taggart

The things I am saying are facts. If he wants to take them on, he can.

I am simply pointing out to Mr. Taggart that he and not the committee is taking the risk.

Mr. Taggart

We will debate it. If he wants to take it, he can take it. I will take a chance. I am astonished that the leader of a leading political party would behave in this way. We have tried. We have issued invitations on numerous occasions to Mr. Rabbitte to attend our derby event each year. Each time, he has refused. While the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, the Leader of the Opposition and leader of Fine Gael, Enda Kenny, and the president of Sinn Féin, Gerry Adams, have all seemed to support us, Mr. Rabbitte in my opinion has never set foot in Shelbourne Park. He made allegations which are damaging to our industry and he used the privilege afforded to him in the House to have snipes at me as chairman.

In my opinion, Mr. Rabbitte raises issues to score political points. This is the point I would make. If he were serious about the questions he asks, then surely he could write to Michael Foley or me. We are very engaging people. We would be delighted to answer any questions which arise. We would meet him at any time, on any date or in any place if he wanted to hear the facts on Shelbourne Park. He will hear some of them today but I would not have minded if he had come to see the progress we had made in recent years. Some members around this table, whom I recognise, will have seen and experienced racing at Shelbourne, Curraheen, Lifford, Dundalk, Galway and Mullingar parks. Anyone who has not seen the progress we have made is leaving himself or herself open to ridicule. I am making this point because there have been certain allegations and sniping, with which neither I nor he has been very happy. We will take our chances.

Bord na gCon is one of the real success stories among semi-State bodies. We took on a daunting and unenviable task in 1995. Under my chairmanship, with significant financial support from the Government, the industry has been turned around completely. We are now a world leader and can be proud of what we have achieved. I have served the industry well for ten years — in certain cases, that is probably a fact. Its future is very promising and there are exciting plans in place. The new chairman, after today, will have an enormous opportunity to further our success.

For my part, it has been an honour to serve as chairman for the past ten and a half years. I have made many friends throughout Ireland. I suppose I have also made a few enemies. I have taken great pleasure from achieving so much for an industry I love. My appearance today is my last act as chairman of Bord na gCon. In many ways it is a sad occasion for me but I am very proud of the legacy left behind for my successors. I will be more than happy to deal with every question members have for as long as they like because we have nothing to fear except fear itself.

Mr. Taggart stated the board's laboratory started testing for EPO in 1995.

Mr. Taggart

In 2005.

May we publish the script?

Mr. Taggart

Of course.

I thank Mr. Taggart.

Mr. Foley is aware that the committee has received correspondence from Deputy Rabbitte and that it constitutes part of today's proceedings. When he last gave evidence to the committee on 1 April 2004, he was acting CEO. When Deputy Higgins asked him about the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, he replied that an electricity generator was required at Shelbourne Park and that a tender had been requested. He stated the generator provided was 25 years old and second-hand. No issue arises from this. He also stated to the Deputy that that was the only specific item regarding which the board had any evidence to suggest there may have been impropriety and that it was the only item regarding which it had any significant concern in respect of its total capital expenditure programme. He said he knew of no other issue of concern. I suggest he either misled the committee inadvertently on that occasion or the flow of information in Bord na gCon is different from what one would normally expect.

It is clear from the original terms of reference for the PricewaterhouseCoopers report which the committee has received that there were other issues. For example, PricewaterhouseCoopers was asked to inquire into the authorisation, procurement and expenditure relating to the Shelbourne Park development, in addition to compliance with EU rules and State guidelines, the efficiency of corporate governance procedures and any unusual aspect arising from the review which might indicate irregularity. Arising from its report and Deputy Rabbitte's letter, an issue arises regarding the glazing of the screen in front of the stand, which matter the company investigated. An issue also arose regarding the provision of Mazda cars for two managers at Shelbourne Park by a company which enjoyed advertising facilities at the stadium free of charge. While individual employees benefited from the Mazda cars, Bord na gCon provided the facilities free of charge. Issues also arose regarding the provision of electrical appliances, the paint supply contract and the provision of carpets. Perhaps the company which provided the carpets also had advertising facilities provided free of charge by the board. Therefore, how could Mr. Foley have said to Deputy Higgins on 1 April 2004 that he knew of no other issue of concern, given that the committee has received information to the effect that all the issues I have outlined should certainly have concerned Bord na gCon?

Mr. Foley

I had no intention, in any shape or form, of making any misleading statement to the committee. At the time I was discussing matters that might have become the subject of litigation. I had no evidence at the time of any element of impropriety, other than that concerning the generator. The reason we asked PricewaterhouseCoopers to examine other matters dealt with at the time, including the paint supply contracts, was they fell outside the main contract. As there was significant concern over one item that fell outside the main contract, namely, the generator, we felt it would be better if PricewatershouseCoopers examined all the items that fell outside it.

I am not questioning Mr. Foley on the substantive issue of the inquiry. If he was aware of these concerns, why did he tell the committee that he was only concerned about the generator?

Mr. Foley

The only matter about which I was concerned regarding impropriety was that of the generator. The others were issues we wanted to have reviewed independently, simply because they fell outside the main contract. I did not know whether there was something wrong but, by virtue of the fact that they fell outside the main contract, I felt it appropriate to have them examined. However, I did not have any particular belief there were problems associated with them.

I am simply looking for an explanation. The committee has been put on notice through correspondence and there seems to be a contradiction between Mr. Foley's position on 1 April 2004 and what we now know. I will pursue the matter a little further. There is no suggestion of allegations being made; I am simply looking for explanations.

Mr. Foley

There was no reason I would not have made any of the matters mentioned in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report available because, when I was asked by the secretary of this committee to provide a copy of the report, I did so freely.

That was last week, at which time we had a copy of it in any case. We decided it would be better to seek it formally rather than rely on what was, in effect, a leaked document. Mr. Foley is financial controller and has been for some time. He has also acted as CEO on a number of occasions. Was he consulted by Holmes O'Malley Sexton when the terms of reference for the PricewaterhouseCoopers report were being drawn up?

Mr. Foley

I was.

Would he not have thought that the terms of reference which I read out to him pointed to issues of concern in that they pertained to the authorisation, procurement and expenditure relating to the Shelbourne Park development and compliance with EU rules and State guidelines? I remind Mr. Foley that Bord na gCon lost a case in the High Court and in the Supreme Court regarding a procurement issue relating to the firm to carry out the tote at the tracks.

Mr. Foley

We won in the High Court and lost in the Supreme Court.

I apologise, that is correct. Procurement, however, was an issue. There are also extraneous matters. The board was consulted in drawing up the terms of reference for PricewaterhouseCoopers but Mr. Foley informed the committee that the only item of concern about which he knew was the generator.

Mr. Foley

I spoke of that in terms of the only evidence I had at the time that there was any impropriety.

Mr. Kelly told Deputy Joe Higgins and the committee that it was the only specific item in respect of which the board had any evidence to suggest that there had been impropriety. He then said that he knew of no other issue of concern. He referred to the evidence available to the board but stated that, to his knowledge, there was no other area of concern.

As financial controller and a highly qualified person, Mr. Foley was aware of the Mazda car issue.

Mr. Foley

Yes.

As an accountant, would he not be concerned that a facility was being provided by the board free of charge and the beneficiary was not the board but an employee of the board?

Mr. Foley

The chief executive at the time dealt with that matter, so it had been addressed.

Mr. Foley did not inform the committee.

Mr. Foley

Inadvertently.

Mr. Foley stated that the chief executive at the time dealt with the issue. However, we are of the view that he may be incorrect and that it was not dealt with fully. One of the beneficiaries not only had a Mazda care provided but was also claiming travelling expenses from the board.

Mr. Foley

That is correct.

That matter was not settled in 2004.

Mr. Foley

We only became aware of that in October or November 2005.

It was never drawn to Mr. Foley's attention at any point?

Mr. Foley

The first time, at the end of 2005, the chief executive of the Dublin stadia wrote to the then chief executive, Aidan Tynan, advising him that his arrangements in respect of the Mazda car were ceasing and that he was requesting a company car from the board. Aidan Tynan showed me his copy of the correspondence of 17 October 2005 and I said to him that my understanding was that the former chief executive, when he became aware of the unauthorised company car in 2002, issued an instruction to the two executives at the time to cease the arrangement. I said that as far as I was concerned, the chief executive did not have a company car. He was told to cease the arrangement and we understood that he had done so.

Obviously, an issue then arose as to why the chief executive of Shelbourne Park still had the car. This gave rise to certain benefit-in-kind issues because the obligation in respect of benefit-in-kind came with the board from 2004 onwards. My expression to the chief executive was clear, he was told to cease the arrangement relating to the car by the former chief executive, he had not done it and he was claiming mileage expenses. That was completely inappropriate and, from a financial point of view, we would have been obliged to make a disclosure or deduct the taxes and pay them retrospectively to Revenue and seek back any mileage claim he made in the past. All of that was done. The internal auditor for the board would have been involved with the senior accountant, Deirdre Roche, in determining that calculation and a total figure of €11,333 was charged back to Paddy Ryan and it was effective.

Obviously, anything further to do with the individual concerned was a matter that rested with the chief executive at the time, Aidan Tynan. I have formal confirmation in writing from Mazda that the arrangement has ceased.

That is fair and I thank Mr. Foley for the detail. However, that is not the focus of my question. My question relates to 1 April 2004 when Mr. Foley informed the committee that the only item of concern of which he was aware was the generator. He must have known about the Mazda car at that stage.

Mr. Foley

I would have known about the Mazda car but it was something that was in the past and a matter with which the chief executive had dealt.

Yes. As an accountant, however, Mr. Foley must have known that benefit-in-kind issues would arise.

Mr. Foley

The benefit-in-kind issues in 2004 rested with the employee. The obligation to make deductions in respect of benefit-in-kind only fell to the board when the tax legislation changed on 1 January 2004. On that date, I was not aware that he still had the car.

Does Mr. Foley wish to say anything else before we proceed?

Mr. Foley

No.

Reading the transcript of the meeting at which the representatives of Bord na gCon last came before us, it is clear that Mr. Foley tried to give the distinct impression that the 20 year old generator with a one week old coat of paint was the only item of concern in respect of the refurbishment of Shelbourne Park. That impression was clearly given. The very first term of reference, however, given to PricewaterhouseCoopers was to discuss the factual position regarding authorisation, procurement and expenditure related to the development of the board's premises at Shelbourne Park, comprising the development of the stadium from April 2000 and new offices from October 2000. That should have been reported by Mr. Foley as a major item of concern in response to the question I posed at that meeting.

Furthermore, Mr. Foley misled the committee in that sense that I asked him how the issue of the fraudulent generator came to the attention of Bord na gCon and he stated that it came to its attention through an internal review by a manager within the organisation. It did not come to the board's intention through an internal review. It did so when the electricians wanted to power it up and, seeking directions on how to do so, they were obliged to consult the manufacturer who told them that the machine was 20 years old.

Mr. Foley

My understanding is that Paddy Ryan went into the building where the generator was housed, looked at it and said that the item of equipment was not new. Paddy Ryan, the general manager of Shelbourne Park at the time, was the first person to bring it to the attention of the then chief executive.

It did not arise as a result of an internal review, although Mr. Ryan might have entered the generator shed. PricewaterhouseCoopers indicate how the fraud came to light and it was not through an internal review.

I welcome the delegation, particularly Mr. Taggart. In his opening statement, which he indicated was not about self-justification, Mr. Taggart made a rigorous defence of his term of office as chairman of Bord na gCon in a personalised way. Unfortunately, some of those to whom he referred are not here to corroborate or contradict what he said.

Outside of what he said, many of the concerns relating to Bord na gCon go beyond some of the issues mentioned. It has already been stated that the officers of Bord na gCon came before the committee in 2004 and that many questions were asked and concerns raised at that point. Some of those remain unresolved and problems in the organisation remain ongoing.

Mr. Taggart

When one has been running an organisation for ten and a half years with £18 million worth of expenditure, etc., these things should not happen, we do not want them to happen, we abhor that they happen but they do happen. This happened and we are very embarrassed about it. We did not do it and did not benefit from it. It was done by people over whom we had no control. If our procedures were deficient we would take the rap for that.

This should not have happened but this generator was a serious problem and the development somewhere at that point was a serious problem for us. We are not trying to hide anything. We called in the solicitors and PricewaterhouseCoopers. We got a report. Apart from paying out the money we could do no more. I suggest that we did everything right. It should not have happened but many things should not have happened.

The committee and any subsequent study by the Comptroller and Auditor General will examine those areas in greater detail.

Mr. Taggart

We welcome that.

I want to ask about three specific areas, a brief follow-through on the Shelbourne Park situation, regarding not the generator but corporate governance issues, and two matters raised in the recent Dalton report, namely, corporate governance and doping, and how Bord na gCon has tackled it.

We were told at our 2004 meeting that the PricewaterhouseCoopers report was imminent but we received a copy only last week. It does not appear to be signed or dated. When did Bord na gCon receive the report and how much did it cost?

Mr. Foley

The report cost €65,000 plus VAT which amounted to €23,500. The total cost was just shy of €80,000.

Mr. Taggart

One forgets that the VAT goes back to the Government so it was effectively €65,000.

When was the report received?

Mr. Foley

Some time in April 2004, after the meeting with this committee.

It was sent to the Committee of Public Accounts last week.

Mr. Foley

That was the only time it was requested.

This dealt with situations arising from tenders sought in 2001 on which Bord na gCon subsequently reneged. The report was delayed because PricewaterhouseCoopers said the terms of reference could not be applied as it had difficulty getting documentation. In regard to maintenance of records within Bord na gCon it states that all information requested to be supplied in the course of its investigation, such as original copies of important documents, were unavailable. Will Mr. Foley explain why such documentation is not and has not been available?

Mr. Foley

Most of the documentation relating to tenders for any major development would be dealt with by the quantity surveyor for that project because they would evaluate relative prices which we would not have the ability to do and we could not benchmark specific tenders. All the documentation relating to the tenders would be retained by the respective project managers and we would have expected that they would retain the original documents.

The committee will deal with this in greater detail at future meetings. The management in each of the greyhound stadia has a separate board structure that interacts with Bord na gCon. Is there, or has there been, common membership of the board of Shelbourne Park for instance and Bord na gCon? If so, can Mr. Taggart identify people who have shared that common membership?

Mr. Taggart

Yes, one does not want to get too carried away with the directors of the various stadia. It was a management structure I introduced because when I took over every facet of the industry was at loggerheads with the other. The bookmakers were kicking the door down, as were the trainers, the owners and so on.

I decided to bring a representative of each inside, for example, Waterford or Shelbourne Park, and then instead of kicking the door down from outside they could do so from inside. It worked extremely well because the guy who was a dissident on the outside, saying everything was wrong and a problem, came inside and became part of the furniture. He then proceeded to make life easy for us. At all times we would have board members who were either chairmen or directors of those companies and they would be the key people, the common denominators——

Mr. Taggart filled that positionat onetime.

Mr. Taggart

Yes, far too often.

Would Mr. Taggart have been a member of the Shelbourne Park board and Bord na gCon at the same time?

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. Traditionally the chairman of Bord na gCon would be the chairman of Shelbourne Park.

In regard to the Dalton report, Mr. Taggart said in his opening statement that staff morale was high before Mr. Tynan's appointment. Over the ten-year period and apart from Mr. Tynan, 15 people seem to have received settlements for leaving the organisation. Mr. Dalton identifies nine of those as redundancies yet all seem to have entailed costs, amounting to over €1 million, approximately 40% of which was legal costs. Why was there such a high turnover rate and such high legal costs for the organisation in respect of people employed who then ceased to be employed?

Mr. Taggart

I will be delighted to answer that question. I am amazed that Mr. Dalton and the Deputy regard 15 people over ten and a half years as a high turnover.

People come and go from organisations but not always by way of legal settlements.

Mr. Taggart

With respect, the redundancies were one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, so ten were redundancies.

Mr. Dalton stated that nine of the 15 were redundancies.

Mr. Taggart

It could be nine or ten.

They all involved legal costs.

Mr. Taggart

No they did not. That is wrong.

The ones that involve legal costs were very expensive and 40% of the cost is legal.

Mr. Taggart

Does Deputy Boyle want an answer to the question?

I am trying to phrase the question in the right way so that Mr. Taggart can answer it.

Mr. Taggart

I will give the Deputy an answer. I was only counting the list there. Nine of those were redundancies. The Deputy understands redundancies. The ESB as a semi-State organisation has made redundancies. Aer Lingus has made thousands of people redundant in recent years. We made nine. I am looking at this list, we had one, two, three, four, five — I must get these numbers right because the Deputy is very——

Mr. Taggart

Yes, five. Of those the first one was legal, the second was not legal, the third was legal, the fourth was not legal. Was this one legal?

Mr. Foley

It went to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

Mr. Taggart

We are now down to four legal cases in ten and a half years. Ger O'Callaghan was not, Colman Quinn, was he legal?

Mr. Foley

No.

Mr. Taggart

He was not. Two were not legal cases. This is important. I see one on this list which was legal.

I am not interested in the names, it is the general circumstances about which I am talking.

Mr. Taggart

I know of two other legal cases. Mr. Tynan's was the third legal case. There were three legal cases in ten and a half years.

This was in respect of employment.

Mr. Taggart should refer to people as past employees instead of naming names.

Mr. Taggart

I beg the Chairman's pardon. Those names are in the records. In other words, the court records would show that we had three cases, including the last one. We have had two legal cases in ten and a half years.

Those refer to employment situations within the organisation. Mr. Dalton also mentions a high degree of litigation to resolve disputes by the board without defining the cost. Will Mr. Taggart define that cost? A member of the board was involved in a defamation action, in Northern Ireland, in which the board was named as a co-respondent and a settlement was made.

Mr. Taggart

I am delighted Deputy Boyle raised that matter. I thought we would definitely win that case. Unfortunately, our insurance company did not want to take it any further and insisted that if we wanted to be insured and it was going to pick up the tab, it would pick it up in its entirety.

Why is Bord na gCon involved in a defamation action outside the jurisdiction?

Mr. Taggart

Concerning the greyhound industry, Ireland is considered a Thirty-two County operation. The ICC looks after the northern tracks, while we look after the southern tracks. We are privileged to have thousands of greyhound people coming from the North to the South. We have much contact with northern greyhound owners. More importantly, the greyhound industry in the North of Ireland is in a vacuum. The UK has the British Greyhound Racing Board, which receives £21 million from bookmakers for the support of UK racing. In Ireland in 2005, we received €13.5 million.

Proportionately, that is much more when one considers the size of population.

Mr. Taggart

The people in the North of Ireland get nothing. It is somewhat like closing swings on a Sunday.

What costs were incurred in litigation cases involving Bord na gCon in the past ten years?

Mr. Taggart

We do not want to be involved in litigation.

I refer to a finding contained in the Dalton report, which indicates that the board is needlessly involved in litigation

Mr. Taggart

Did the Deputy use the word "needlessly"?

There seems to be a high degree of litigation.

Mr. Taggart

If one is the administrator of a large industry, people will always be taking legal cases against one and one will be obliged to defend them. If one bows down to them, one does not get there. The North of Ireland greyhound board received no money from anyone and it blamed the Irish subsidy for its decline.

I will move on to another area because Mr. Taggart will not give me the answers in this particular case.

Mr. Taggart

Excuse me, Deputy.

I asked about the cost of litigation.

Mr. Taggart

How would I know the cost of all litigation? Every litigation case was brought upon us. We did not seek out such cases but we are obliged to defend them. We will continue to defend ourselves because we have no other choice.

Some of the litigation came about as a result of how decisions were made.

Mr. Taggart

I do not agree with that.

Mr. Tynan was chief executive for a 15-month period. It seems that decisions were made early on as to whether he was working well for the organisation. Was Mr. Tynan the first choice for chief executive?

Mr. Taggart

He was the first choice at that particular time.

What does that mean?

Mr. Taggart

It means that there was an interview process and he was the first choice.

There were no other interviews before that.

Mr. Taggart

The Deputy is getting confused again.

I am simply asking a question.

Mr. Taggart

The Deputy is confused and I am not surprised.

It is a simple question. Was there an interview process to pick the chief executive?

Mr. Taggart

To answer the Deputy's question, he was first choice.

I thank Mr. Taggart. When Mr. Tynan was chief executive officer, CEO, for the 15-month period, there does not seem to have been a formal evaluation of his role other than the questions that arose at board meetings. Is there a formal evaluation process for officers of that rank in the organisation?

Mr. Taggart

There is not a very good one. We will have one in the future. I am chairman of many companies. I do not believe that there are any evaluation processes for CEOs or managing directors. I believe they perform and engage in dialogue with the board and the chairman. They get their bonuses and are paid. It is a different matter with executives because they have an evaluation process. Mr. Michael Foley will have an evaluation process. The only evaluation process that applies to CEOs and managing directors relates to the bonus they will receive. If they do not receive a bonus, the board will ask if they are doing the job correctly. If the board believes that the CEO is not doing it correctly, then it is time to part company. There is no grievance procedure applicable to CEOs and managing directors.

That is Mr. Taggart's opinion.

Mr. Taggart

That is an opinion shared by everyone with whom I have spoken.

Within the organisation?

Mr. Taggart

No, outside the organisation by business people to whom I have spoken. I do not take these matters lightly. I ask people's views on this. They will say, unequivocally and categorically, that the chairman and the board represent the evaluation procedure for a CEO.

I want to move on to doping. The Dalton report has a glaring statement in its opening summary, questioning the effectiveness of whatever monitoring is being carried out. Mr. Taggart referred to the number of tests increasing and the percentage of positive results decreasing. One recommendation from the Dalton report is that the board's control committee should consider whether there are substances lawfully administered to greyhounds which should be classed as prohibited substances on the basis that they may enhance or retard performance. It should, for example, give early consideration to the classification of steroids as prohibited substances. To me, this means steroid use is common and a standard feature of the greyhound industry.

Mr. Taggart

It is a standard feature of the greyhound industry across the world over. It is only in recent years that the UK banned steroids.

It is not an area in which Ireland is a world leader.

Mr. Taggart

One must be practical as well as being a world leader. We put together a sub-committee some time ago to examine this matter. I am not an expert in steroids. If one has bitches coming into season, they are given steroids so they can race longer. That long-established routine has been in place for almost 80 years. The procedure still obtains in Australia and America. The Deputy may think that steroids are bad but in the greyhound industry, they are used differently. It is not the same as athletes using them to build up their strength. Steroids are used to effectively stop bitches coming into season. It is not an easy situation and I am not qualified to give answers on it. The board is examining it. I believe we will ban steroids but it will have to be a gradual process.

The main criticism is that the membership of the control committee stops each year and must subsequently be renewed at a board meeting. When the officers last appeared before the committee, it emerged that this process was not completed until March of the relevant year. As a result, a backlog of cases has built up. Is that still the situation?

Mr. Taggart

No, we have had another seven months of controversies. Every time we have a controversy, matters lapse. Up to 1 January 2006, we were way ahead of our targets. We were examining cases on a current basis. Seven months later, with no CEO, there is backlog of cases. My successor will have a big job to do.

How have the policy on doping and the approach of naming and shaming adopted during Mr. Taggart's tenure as chairman evolved? Was a meeting held in November 1996 at which an official from the then Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry was made aware of a decision that no naming and shaming should take place because of the effect on public confidence? That was the policy of Bord na gCon until 2004, following the board's reaching agreement on a new policy in March 2003.

Mr. Taggart

That was the situation that existed.

Since 2003, despite what Mr. O'Leary told us on that day, the naming and shaming policy has been quite selective.

Mr. Taggart

No, it is not selective. We have decided that every case is now published, so there is no problem of selectivity.

When was that decision made?

Mr. Taggart

It was immediately after the March meeting. We decided in our own interests that all cases should be published.

This committee asked that such action be taken in 2004.

Mr. Taggart

I was not aware of that. Is the member saying that the committee asked for all such cases to be made public?

We were assured by Mr. Foley that all positives would be published.

Mr. Taggart

I was not aware of that.

That was the decision of the board in March 2003, and Mr. Taggart chaired the board meeting.

Mr. Taggart

Let us consider a dangerous drug that slows down dogs as opposed to an ordinary fellow who simply administers a pain-killer or something very small. I was wrong, but I always had the view that there are degrees of wrongdoing. It is akin to doing 40 mph or 100 mph in a 30 mph zone. The same is true of greyhound racing, whose trainers are ordinary people who make mistakes. The worst job that I ever had at Bord na gCon was to be judge and jury over those lovely people, who do not have much money, love their dogs and made a mistake. I am glad that I no longer have to take that person, who is totally innocent and as pure as the driven snow, and put his name beside that of someone who knew what he or she was doing. That will be the case from now on, and I accept that the committee is entitled to wish it. However, I have a great deal of sympathy with smaller, ignorant owners.

I am delighted that Mr. Dalton is separating the control committee from the board. I hated being judge and jury. Innocent people before me were in tears, and I hated the thought even of ordering a fine. In certain cases, I said that if the person did not have the money, we would take it over three years or even that I would pay the fine myself. It was an extremely difficult job, and one must remember that there are thousands of greyhound-owners. The gullible and innocent ones fall foul of those procedures. Owing to the problem that we got into, we publish everything, but I am glad that I am not the person on the control committee taking someone from Knocknagoshel with one dog who has given him an aspirin or pain-killer. He will now be named in the newspaper and must read that he is in the same league as someone stopping a dog for betting purposes. It is not an easy industry.

I am sure it is not, but those named have been fairly small fry in the industry, while those who avoided being named were larger actors.

Mr. Taggart

That is absolute rubbish.

The names seem to imply that.

Mr. Taggart

At the risk of repeating myself, I have more sympathy for the little guy, and my predecessor Michael Field was the same. The little guy got a far better hearing from us than the big one with the lawyers.

That was not so in the two notorious cases. Those involved were very active trainers.

Mr. Taggart

One was big and one small.

I will put that question to Mr. Furlong regarding the Department's awareness of the existence of a policy.

I realise that the Department of Agriculture and Food had responsibility for this from 1995, but to what extent was the Department aware of the existence of a policy of refusing to name and shame and subsequently of partially naming and shaming? We have been informed today of a full policy of naming and shaming.

Mr. Furlong

I was certainly not aware of an arrangement made ten years ago. As Mr. Taggart has said, in the response to the issues that emerged in the Dalton investigation, we became aware that Bord na gCon had decided on blanket publication.

Thank you.

I am not terribly knowledgeable about the greyhound industry, but I try to make up for that by getting briefed and through the media, as we would with any topic. I emphasise that I have no bias against the industry, and what has been achieved in recent years is fantastic. I may have a few comments that sound negative in that regard, however.

As one of the two nominated examiners today, I received a very full briefing on everything on the agenda. There are five major topics. I also saw press cuttings with which I familiarised myself in full. It was with some concern that I read in one of the larger newspapers this morning that we would be investigating an office letting by Bord na gCon in Limerick. My worry is twofold, since I felt that if the subject was important enough to merit such coverage, it should have been referred to in my briefing material. I checked again with the staff involved today and was assured that it was not included. The alternative, if the matter was not important enough to merit a briefing, is that it was planted by someone as a smokescreen.

There is a great deal of intrigue, and a great deal has happened with those reports and various issues that have arisen. I certainly do not want this committee to become part of that. For any journalist or media person involved, it would have been impossible to get any comment on the issue from our briefing material or from any committee member. I express that concern, although I will not pursue it any further.

Perhaps I might briefly revert to the issue——

Mr. Taggart

Perhaps I might comment on that.

No, I would prefer not at this stage.

Mr. Taggart

Could I make a comment?

Mr. Taggart can come in later. Although the Chairman can overrule me, I would prefer to proceed in this manner.

I would like to refer to Mr. Foley's examination, held on 1 April 2004. I have a copy of the entire text. There were five pages of roasting by Deputy Joe Higgins. That was almost unprecedented, and the questions included whether there were issues, what was happening and so on. Assurances were given throughout those five pages that there was nothing about which the committee should know.

The PricewaterhouseCoopers report stated very clearly that three major matters had been removed from their examination. The last one, which was easy enough to handle, was left. Everyone will know an old machine when they see one. It was reduced to very minor issues. I am the longest-serving member on the committee now that Deputy Rabbitte has resigned, and that was the most misleading response that I have heard in my time here. I do not know whether it was deliberate. I know that Mr. Foley was not here previously, but it was the most misleading. Anyone can misunderstand a question, and one can receive an incorrect answer, but this covered five pages. Members asked repeatedly for information regarding where difficulties had arisen, but an assurance was given in each case that only one item had been generated. I want that recorded, since it relates to Mr. Foley, who gave the evidence, rather than Mr. Taggart.

Mr. Taggart

Could I make a comment?

I would prefer it otherwise.

Any witness answers for himself, and it is unprecedented to have the chairman of an organisation before us. We invited Mr. Taggart, and the Accounting Officer, the financial comptroller, is Mr. Foley. He very clearly misled this committee, deliberately or otherwise. I take Deputy Joe Higgins's point. We have a five-page transcript of very robust questioning, and Mr. Foley managed not to mention any of the four major matters. That is not a good way to conduct business or build up a good rapport between us and a semi-State body. It was not a good outcome, and had I not received that transcript, I would not have believed it. Twice Mr. Taggart has said that the members of the committee were very engaging people and that he had no intention of hiding anything. Those were his comments today. I would say the evidence is to the contrary. Forget the time and situation and all the rest. We are dealing of issues of expenditure and I am delighted that the Comptroller and Auditor General will take up these matters. We would genuinely feel that we were being conned or led astray, if he did not. The only items this committee deals with, however successful an organisation may be, are negative ones. In general, we never get to praise people. I am very disappointed.

Mr. Taggart

I am not allowed to comment on this.

No, not on this one.

Mr. Taggart may comment in due course, when the Chair calls on him.

I will ask Mr. Taggart about his comment that he placed the emphasis on always having high morale among the staff. How can this be reconciled with Mr. Dalton's comment that there is need to address the tensions and very poor state of morale within Bord na gCon?

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. Could I have the minute of October 2004, please? I am delighted Deputy Dennehy has asked me this question because it is very easily put to bed.

While Mr. Taggart is looking at the minute, the order is Deputy Dennehy to continue, then Deputy Joe Higgins, Deputy Burton, Deputy Hayes and Deputy Curran.

Mr. Taggart

I did not intend getting into this, but I have to answer the Deputy's question.

Whether Mr. Taggart intended it or not, there are two conflicting reports, namely, what he has given the committee and what is contained in Mr. Dalton's report, for which somebody is paying.

Mr. Taggart

I just wanted to cite Mr. Tynan's quotation.

I am referring to Mr. Dalton now. Does he take it from Mr. Tynan?

Mr. Taggart

No, I wrote to Mr. Dalton commenting on how he got the morale issue so wrong. I pointed out that this was a minute of the first meeting of Mr. Aidan Tynan in October 2004.

What was the time factor?

Mr. Taggart

He was only in the job a couple of weeks. Mr. Tynan said that three days into the job, he received a letter from SIPTU indicating there were long-standing issues to be dealt with. Bearing in mind the SIPTU letter, he had expected to get a significant number of staff raising issues with him but, in his own words, he "found the situation to be very different". He said that only three staff members raised issues, all of which were legitimate. These related to pensions, upgrade increase in salaries, and educational issues. He had asked the staff what they thought of morale and they had indicated that they were very happy with it.

These were his words, not mine. I would suggest that Mr. Dalton is getting confused with the fact that right now, after Mr. Tynan's period of stewardship, morale is very low, as one might expect. However, when Mr. Tynan came into the organisation, he said morale was very high, which it was.

After three days, in fairness to him, he could hardly——

Mr. Taggart

I am sorry, but this guy approached matters diligently. He got the query within three days. He took two weeks to assess the morale. He was unequivocal about the morale. I just want to put that on the record.

I asked Mr. Taggart how long Mr. Tynan was in place and he said three days.

Mr. Taggart

No, I did not.

Mr. Taggart

I did not. Mr. Tynan said that three days into the job he received a letter from SIPTU.

My apologies, Mr. Taggart is correct.

Mr. Taggart

That is all right.

Was there some other matter Mr. Taggart wanted to clarify?

Mr. Taggart

I just wanted to say morale was at an all-time high when he arrived, and it is at an all-time low 15 months later.

I presume Mr. Tynan did not play any part in the great success story over the past ten years, alluded to by Mr. Taggart.

Mr. Taggart

He was not there.

No, but over the ten years——

Mr. Taggart

He joined in September 2004, went to his first board meeting in October 2004, looked at the morale issue, said it was unbelievably good and from then on we had our problems and he had his problems. I would suggest that he contributed to the low morale. He had not been there in the previous nine years. I was there.

That is a judgement call, anyway, on whether he was right——

Mr. Taggart

I am sorry, no——

I will not interrupt Mr. Taggart when he is in possession. That is a judgment call, so we will deal with factual figures. Deputy Boyle referred to the termination and the redundancies issue. Is that right?

Mr. Taggart

That is correct.

I am not talking about the numbers that left, but I note that the payment given out was €658,000 and legal fees attached to it were €483,000, approximately 80% of the amount paid out. Why is that? We have all had experiences of companies, factories etc. and have worked with people. Why is the level of legal fees so high for just the 15 cases Mr. Taggart indicated that were involved? It comes to 80% of the total paid out.

Mr. Taggart

That is the legal system in Ireland. We had two cases that went before the courts, which meant senior and junior counsel, solicitors, travelling time etc. In effect, one is paying for the other counsel, too. This is the way these things work in Ireland, for every company, by the way. Let us say we take legal advice in a situation where a guy has been dismissed and he has a problem. Now, we are obviously going to have to pay up at some stage. There is never a situation where an employer walks away scot free. In 99.9% of situations the employer picks up his or her own legal expenses and those of the person taking the case. In effect, the employer pays double. In every company that I have been in, if an employee took us to court, except for fraud — and none of these was for fraud — we, the employer, ended up paying both lots of legal fees. That accounts for 99.9% of all such cases in Ireland.

I must confess that is new to me, and I have been involved with quite a few companies.

On the issue of doping — and I am not totally familiar with this area — there were 69 positive cases between the three years, 2003-05. Is that a high number of cases? I do not want to hear that there were 6,000 tests or anything like that. I know there is a problem in Italy about races being fixed and all that, but I presume the 69 positive cases cited are not just EPO matters where people might have administered a little tablet or something to keep a dog going.

Mr. Taggart

In fact somebody could be very innocent, where ointment is given that might go through the dog's pad and shows positive. In other words, there are two things to be said about it. The incidence is remarkably low — world class even — and there is a reason. It is like everything else, such as the problems with driving. When there is a big blitz in place, everybody obeys the law. When the blitz is over, the level of infringement returns to normal. However, we have a blitz in place all the time, which means that people know that with 6,000 tests, they will get caught. The greatest prevention for non-positives is to have these random tests. If the Deputy has a dog running and so do I, they have an equal opportunity of being tested.

We have an equal opportunity of being named, as Deputy Boyle indicated. I am sorry for interrupting Mr. Taggart.

Mr. Taggart

I would be named and the Deputy would probably get off.

On the same topic, why is Lifford double the national average?

Mr. Taggart

The answer is very simple. Northern Ireland, which has thousands of dogs, had no doping procedures in place. In other words, they go in and out and there are no testing procedures. Then we opened this magnificent stadium in Lifford, which is wonderful. They all started to come down there for the increased prize money. However, they had never heard of testing. When they came down the first year, the tests were all positive. Over the following four years, they have all gone away. Is that a reasonable explanation for the Deputy?

I have a good friend who began dabbling in gambling when he was a young clerical officer. Some 35 or 40 years ago, he read Ray Johnson's book, Beaten By A Nose. He never gambled afterwards. I am suggesting there are suspicions.

Mr. Taggart

I wish I had read that book.

On the corporate culture within Bord na gCon, to be fair, Mr. Taggart's personality is an issue, which is obvious even from today's confusion. He has a can-do attitude and is a fairly dynamic personality. However, does that help the corporate culture or help those who must work with Mr. Taggart, such as chief executives and others? Before he leaves tomorrow, will Mr. Taggart recommend any change which he believes is needed at the top so that a forceful person cannot dictate, to put it in layman's terms?

Mr. Taggart

The question is a slight on my character which the Deputy is entitled to make. I am a get-done fellow, so to speak. I am also a serious respecter of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. There has to be liability. We owe the State. It is not our money in many cases. We have an obligation to be right, and rightly so. Deputy Dennehy has centred in on probably the one discretion we were not on top of. We are embarrassed by that. However, I assure the Deputy that the two people on my right take every single facet of expenditure and everything else into account. Interestingly, I cannot comment on that business. I am not allowed to comment on Michael Foley's——

Yes, you are.

Mr. Taggart

Am I?

On that issue, was there a collective, unanimous decision to withdraw from PricewaterhouseCoopers an investigation on the position regarding the authorisation, procurement and expenditure related to the development of, for example, Shelbourne Park? Was it Mr. Taggart's decision to report on the compliance of the procedure with EU rules on state guidance? Whose decision was it to report on the efficiency of corporate governance procedures? Who decided to pull all those items?

Mr. Taggart

Obviously, they were board decisions. As there are many questions, I will begin by answering the first. The situation at Shelbourne Park is terribly embarrassing for us. We have an old generator instead of a new generator. It is small.

That is relatively minor compared with some of the issues. I thought €100,000 was involved.

Mr. Taggart

To what is the Deputy referring?

I am referring to what the Comptroller and Auditor General will be investigating, namely, the procedure of tendering, contracts and how it was built. He outlined that at the outset.

Mr. Taggart

What are we talking about? If we are still talking about Shelbourne Park, I want to talk about Shelbourne Park.

The point being made by the Deputy is that while the issue of the generator is interesting, it was substantially dealt with at the last meeting and by the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. The committee has no issue with the PricewaterhouseCoopers findings. However, in contrast with Bord na gCon's total budget, the amount of money lost was quite small——

Mr. Taggart

Yes.

——but the other issues reflected in the original terms of reference of the PricewaterhouseCoopers study were of far more significance than the relatively small amount of money lost on the generator. That is the point.

Mr. Taggart

That is fine. I would be delighted to answer that question. My interpretation of the issue is that we, as a board, discovered the generator problem at Shelbourne Park. We then became concerned that there might be other problems at Shelbourne Park. We consulted our legal advisers who recommended that we use the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. To be fair to Michael Foley, he made the point well that the one matter with which we knew we had a problem, in the context of stealing or fraud, was the generator. We wanted the other issues examined but we were not convinced or did not know that fraud was involved. Once we discovered a problem, we called in the solicitors and PricewaterhouseCoopers, and we did everything right.

I do not understand where the problem arises. Is the Deputy suggesting he did not know that PricewaterhouseCoopers would consider this issue?

I am suggesting that four major items were withdrawn and that when Deputy Joe Higgins asked Mr. Foley about this, he never mentioned these items in five pages of evidence to the committee. I am sure Mr. Taggart has read the transcript carefully. He is aware.

Mr. Taggart

I have not read it.

With all due respect, Mr. Taggart should read it before tomorrow to be sure he is fully up to date.

Mr. Taggart

Is the Deputy referring to the transcript of the Committee of Public Accounts?

Yes, five pages of it. Mr. Taggart will agree there were rigorous, robust questions, which I am sure Deputy Higgins would repeat.

Mr. Taggart

I have no doubt of that. I thought what Michael Foley was suggesting — I could be wrong, as I have not read the transcript — was that we were definitely of the view there was fraud with regard to the generator. We asked to look at the other issues, so we were not hiding them. However, we did not know and still do not know whether there was fraud with regard to those issues.

There is a subtle difference in this regard, although perhaps only I see that difference. I certainly see the subtle difference. I do not know if anybody else sees it.

Mr. Foley thought there might be fraud.

Mr. Foley

That matter was discussed at a board meeting on 3 September 2004. There was query from Helen Nugent to the board's legal advisers whether the board should hand the matter to the Garda Síochána for public prosecution. The board's legal adviser advised that, having compiled a review of the full file and correspondence in regard to the matter, he believed it would be futile to pursue Danny Lennon as he thought, on the basis of the evidence available, it would be difficult to prove fraud from a criminal prosecution perspective.

Is that not a matter for the Garda? If the board and the acting chief executive thought there could have been fraud, they would call to their local Garda station. That is the way the world works outside Bord na gCon.

My only up-close knowledge of greyhound racing comes through visiting Curraheen Park, which is an excellent facility, which I am sure is replicated throughout the country. However, we must still do our work in a proper fashion, no matter how successful.

I have some questions for Mr. Furlong. Mr. Dalton found that the board's relationship with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism tends at times to be characterised by tension and even hostility, and he refers to strong criticism of the Department by the chairman of Bord na gCon and, in essence, states that Bord na gCon needs to be mindful that a substantial amount of its funding comes from the taxpayer. Did the Department used to have a representative on the board of Bord na gCon?

Mr. Furlong

It had a representative on the board, Helen Nugent, to whom reference has been made by Michael Foley. Unfortunately, she resigned for personal reasons.

On the occasion of her resignation, did she discuss with Mr. Furlong the reasons for her resignation and her experience?

Mr. Furlong

They were personal. I do not want to go into them.

Did she discuss how the board conducted itself?

Mr. Furlong

She respected her collective responsibility as a member of the board for the activities of the board. She accepted it would be entirely inappropriate to report to me or any colleague on what might be happening at particular board meetings. That is the nature of the collective responsibility of boards of directors. If there are issues to be communicated formally between the Department and the board, two channels are used: Minister to chairman; and the Department — either myself or the assistant secretary — to the chief executive. These are the normal channels we use for pursuing issues with Bord na gCon.

So it would be normal for her to have discussions with Mr. Furlong.

Mr. Furlong

Not in her capacity as a member of the board. She had to respect the confidentiality of board proceedings. She was a member of the board.

We are not talking about a chapter of the Freemasons. We are talking about an organisation that is substantially funded by the taxpayer. In what way did she report to Mr. Furlong, if she could not discuss what went on at the board?

Mr. Furlong

She was not accountable to me for her activities as a member of the board of Bord na gCon. There were two separate channels for pursuing issues which concerned the Department. The first was through me or some of my senior management team who dealt directly with Bord na gCon issues. Incidentally, I should make it clear that Ms Nugent's line responsibilities did not include Bord na gCon. This formal channel of communication to deal with issues was between me, or members of the Department's senior management team, and senior management in Bord na gCon. In addition, there was a separate channel between the Minister and the chairman.

I see nothing improper with either channel. Ms Nugent was appointed to the board without having direct line responsibility for it within the Department because we considered that, in the context of decisions being taken by Bord na gCon, it would be appropriate that a member of the Department would at least be able to inform the board as to how issues which might ultimately come before the Department or the Minister would be viewed. In a sense, she would fill in the external environment for the board, inasmuch as it related to the Department and ultimately the Government.

Apparently, however, the information was not allowed to flow in the other direction to enable her to inform the Department of developments within Bord na gCon. Was anyone else appointed to represent the Department on the board in her place?

Mr. Furlong

No.

Mr. Furlong

That was a decision for the Minister.

Can Mr. Furlong provide the committee with a reason?

Mr. Furlong

No.

Mr. Furlong is unaware of a reason.

Mr. Furlong

The Minister has absolute discretion to make board appointments.

Does Mr. Furlong think there is a hostile relationship between Bord na gCon and the Department?

Mr. Furlong

I would describe it as robust. I would certainly not describe it as hostile. In my personal contacts with the chairman, the then chief executive and the current acting chief executive, we could and can talk freely to one another. Undoubtedly, at times a results-driven entity such as Bord na gCon might find it irritating or difficult to have issues raised with it by the Department. However, as I saw it, the Department's responsibilities had three components, the first of which was to ensure we provided an appropriate policy framework for Bord na gCon. The second was to ensure we had effective monitoring of financial information. We were obliged to be concerned about the capacity of Bord na gCon to continue as a viable organisation and had regular meetings with its management. While the meetings may not have been as regular as we would have preferred, our dealings with Bord na gCon did not differ in any way from the manner in which we dealt with any other State entity such as Horse Racing Ireland or the Irish Sports Council. Hence, regular policy meetings were held. My point is that at times the relationship was difficult. Ultimately, however, we were obliged to respect a number of factors. First, a board had been set up which had collective responsibility for the management of Bord na gCon. As the Comptroller and Auditor General has indicated, the accounts of Bord na gCon have been monitored since the introduction of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act.

I refer to the existence of issues of financial impropriety. While one might state, with 20:20 vision, that we ought to have been somewhat more curious in respect of one or two areas, frankly I do not think so. Accountability for financial transactions is discharged perfectly adequately with the Comptroller and Auditor General. Officials of my Department communicated on issues from time to time with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Let us move on to that very subject. Apart from the fraud pertaining to the generator, does Mr. Taggart suspect any other frauds took place during the redevelopment of Shelbourne Park?

Mr. Taggart

I do not know. I am not aware of any.

Has Mr. Taggart discussed with the acting chief executive the entire redevelopment from that perspective?

Mr. Taggart

Shelbourne Park is just one of the redevelopments. At this stage we have completed ten. Clearly, we have accountants, as well as the Comptroller and Auditor General, and try to carry out such redevelopments to the best of our ability. We do them exactly as they should be done.

Does Mr. Taggart agree that the level of governance was so pathetic in the development of Shelbourne Park that it would be unsurprising if other frauds were committed? Is it credible that a security man who was promoted to be a kind of project or operations supervisor was instrumental in supplying a new generator which was supposed to cost £114,000? It was supplied by a company called Bringtoft and it turns out that the operations supervisor was a director of the company. The board ended up with a 20 year old dud with a fresh coat of paint. What kind of internal governance procedure is that for a public body?

Mr. Taggart

That is totally unacceptable. As I understand it, like all frauds, the fraud was well done. This device arrived in a crate. I understand that as the same gentleman proceeded to back into it, it was a long time before we got around to opening it. However, there were extenuating circumstances at the time in that the managing director of Shelbourne Park, Mr. Noel Hynes, became seriously ill and nearly died, which put matters astray somewhat. Obviously, we are not proud of this fraud. In fact, we are completely embarrassed by it. However, we can do nothing about it. We investigated the matter and must bear the consequences.

However, I suggest the atmosphere or the context in which it happened was one of great laxity. For example, I refer to the casual manner in which contracts were entered into for reasonably serious amounts of money.

Mr. Taggart

We must take the criticism for this. Subsequently, we made sure everything was taken on board. The Deputy is correct to state we must take the criticism for laxity.

I was referring to the casualness regarding, for example, the contract for the glazing work and so on. However, I want to move on to——

Mr. Taggart

We did not intend it to be either lax or fraudulent. We took people at face value and were caught out, as with any fraud. We have put our hands up in this regard. We were and remain very embarrassed about it. It is totally unacceptable.

Is Mr. Foley aware of, or did he suspect or investigate any other aspects of fraud? Did he discuss the development of Shelbourne Park with anyone material to it?

Mr. Foley

No. At that time I only asked for the review of matters carried out outside the main contract such as painting and the provision of carpets. I did not do so because I had a particular concern. If one item is a source of concern, if other items have been purchased outside the main contract and if — as with the glazed screen — one becomes aware that the proper tender procedure has not been gone through, one becomes somewhat suspect about such items. I refer to the scenario, whereby there was something wrong with one item which was outside the main contract and another four items had been ordered outside it. However, I had no evidence or reason to believe there was anything else wrong.

Did the project managers report any concerns to Mr. Foley about the quality of carpets supplied?

Mr. Foley

I felt the quality of the carpets was poor and raised the matter with the quantity surveyor when I inspected the job. Overall responsibility for the job rested with Mr. Hynes rather than with me. When I compared the relative quality of carpets in Shelbourne Park with those in Cork, they were not as good. However, I was assured by the quantity surveyor at the time that they were happy that the relative price paid for the carpet was appropriate to its standard. They expressed no concern to me in this regard. While the quality was different, so too was the price. Hence, on a relative quality price basis——

Would Mr. Foley agree that there was a laissez-faire attitude to governance in the redevelopment and operation of Shelbourne Park Stadium? Would he agree that this was the case given that managers travelled around in Mazda cars supplied to them free as a result of advertising by the providers, from which the board and taxpayer received no benefit; when an operations manager was able to pull this incredible fiddle; and when contracts for glazing and other matters were entered into casually and without a proper tendering process? Do these developments not place a large question mark over how the redevelopment of Shelbourne Park Stadium was managed?

Mr. Foley

I agree that the processes employed by the person with overall responsibility for this project, namely, the managing director of Shelbourne Park Stadium, were not appropriate nor would I stand over them.

Where does the buck stop? Does it not stop at the chief executive officer, the financial officer or the senior people at the headquarters in Limerick? Is this not where the buck must stop?

Mr. Foley

It depends. Shelbourne Park Stadium was its own unit with its own managing director who reported directly to the then CEO, Michael Field. From the perspective of the head of finance, we had an internal audit function which we continued to exercise. From time to time, this function will identify matters in terms of procurement and various processes relating to best practice that are not being complied with. These could include the question of whether all tax clearance certificates are in place. This is a routine review that will be carried out twice at every track every year. A number of points will be made out of this, which we take on board and try to implement.

A final question.

I have a question for Mr. Foley and Mr. Taggart. The Supreme Court decision was lost by Bord na gCon because of the inadequate way in which it outlined the criteria for tendering. However, Bord na gCon continued to use the company which was wrongly awarded the contract so it was taken to the High Court on this issue. Of what was the management of Bord na gCon thinking, that it would pursue such a course of action? I do not know whether to call it audacity or a lapse. How much do Mr. Foley and Mr. Taggart think this entire operation between the legal costs and possible contingent liabilities of damages and so on will cost the board and the taxpayer?

Mr. Foley

I will take the committee back to the processes and the two judgments. In 2003, the then tote manager for the board had responsibility for drafting a tender document for the provision of services for five tracks. He took on board this responsibility, which was duly advertised in accordance with EU guidelines. As part of this, he set out the various criteria on which the system would be marked and determined. There was a significant list of criteria. At the time and before we had gone to tender, two companies provided services to the board on an individual track basis so that each system stood in isolation.

I can only assume that when he did the tender, we knew that other tenders relating to big international players had probably considered outside hubs, which are centralised systems. Within the tender document at that time, the tote manager did not include a specific requirement for a system to be either a stand-alone or hub system. The reason he did not do this was probably because he wanted to keep the process as broad and open as possible and to receive the maximum number of bidders. If he said that he wanted an external hub, he might have precluded certain people who were already providing the board with a service from delivering. He listed the tender criteria and said that the approach taken should be forward looking and allow the board to develop its business.

The tenders came in and three tenders provided for hub solutions. Two provided for external hub solutions, which was going to be likely because one was providing to Horse Racing Ireland, which had already had an external hub, while another American-based company also had an external hub. One provided for an internal hub, which was a hub which the board would have to manage itself, while one provided for a standard stand-alone system.

When we carried out the evaluation, we took into account the various factors and criteria. In evaluating the merits of the internal hub as opposed to those of the external hub, we took account of the fact that an external hub would be managed externally and that an internal hub would bring about additional communications costs and require additional staff to manage. We took into account what we assumed was the relative cost of managing both an internal and external hub and applied a proportionate percentage in terms of the margin to that to make the bid on a pure like-for-like basis.

When the bids came in, we were dissatisfied with their competitive nature because all of them were higher than what we were currently paying our existing providers. We took legal advice. The preferred bidder at that time was a company called Amtote, a large American provider. This company was the subcommittee's preferred bidder but we felt its price was too high. We took advice from our legal advisers about whether we could negotiate with it. They advised us that it would be inappropriate to negotiate with Amtote but we could go to each of the respective parties and request revised bids on pricing alone. Martin Doolan, who was the tote manager at the time, did this and we have received the bids which dealt solely with revised pricing. We evaluated them and the various criteria in the documentation and concluded that Scientific Aims, which was the second preferred bidder of two members of the subcommittee and which had provided a hub to HRI, was the bid that was most economically advantageous, rather than that of Amtote.

This was the decision of the subcommittee. Scientific Aims' bid was the cheapest and provided for an external hub solution, which was far less risky from a risk management perspective. We advised the board of this recommendation, which was unanimously agreed by the subcommittee. The board then adopted that recommendation and we went ahead and issued a letter of intent to Scientific Aims in respect of the matter.

In December 2003, which I believe was the last day of the three months during which a person can object to a tender process, ATL, which was a current provider and had worked on a number of our tracks, sought the setting aside of the contract by the board. The board had already commenced and begun to implement the system around the five tracks because the contract with the existing provider was up. ATL, which had proposed an internal hub, sought to litigate against the board. The board was informed of the situation and the members of the subcommittee all believed that we had made the right decision for the right reasons and that the solution we had was the most economically advantageous one for the board.

The case was heard before Mr. Justice Roderick Murphy in the High Court in October 2004. It continued for four or five days in the High Court, during which Mr. Justice Murphy considered the evidence of all the parties. His finding was that the court believed that the respondent acted within its discretion in the manner in which it applied the stated criteria and that expert tenderers were in a position to interpret the criteria in the same way. He therefore refused the application by ATL to deny the award of the contract.

The members have received copies of the Supreme Court judgment and will be up to date on what subsequently occurred. Bord na gCon lost.

Mr. Foley

We lost in the Supreme Court on technical grounds. We carried out an evaluation and had a preference for the external hub, but we should have included that in the initial tender guidelines.

The court said that "the procedure was in this aspect seriously lacking in necessary transparency". What were the costs of this judgment and the subsequent action?

Mr. Foley

Regarding the subsequent action, immediately following the decision of the Supreme Court to overturn the High Court's judgment, we sought counsel's advice on what we should do with the existing system at the five tracks. Counsel's advice was that we should enter a short-term contract until we had an opportunity to retender, we would need to give a 52-day notice in the Easter journal and the short-term contract should be under the EU threshold limit of €211,000 and entered into with the existing provider to continue the service's provision until an opportunity arose to seek rebids. The senior counsel believed that this was the correct legal advice to effect what we needed do, otherwise we would not have had a tote operation in place.

What was the total cost? Has a provision been made in Bord na gCon's budget for it?

Mr. Foley

We expect the total legal fees to be approximately €500,000.

What about damages or compensation?

Mr. Foley

Damages are yet to be determined. ATL has indicated that it will take a case for damages, but it must prove that it would have got the award even if it had an external hub solution. We took into account a significant number of other criteria in determining why the other company's bid was better than ATL's.

The cost of €500,000 was expensive.

Mr. Foley

Absolutely. During the process, people acted in the best interests of the board and in accordance with legal advice.

Mr. Taggart

I was in consultation with senior barristers when something went wrong. We were given a 70:30 chance of winning and were surprised when we lost. However, that is the law.

I do not want to leave the committee with incorrect information. I have counted how many legal cases we had of that 15. There were three big ones and two small ones. There were six altogether. I do not want to return at a later date and have someone say that I stated there were four or two cases.

As Mr. Taggart is discussing legal issues and so on, has the financial settlement agreed with Mr. Tynan been paid?

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely.

Mr. Foley

No. The payment has not been physically made. The amount of money has been paid to the solicitors, but Mr. Tynan must provide us with certain tax clearance details before we could effect the payment.

Mr. Taggart

It is effectively paid.

When was it paid?

Mr. Foley

It has not been paid.

Is it lodged with Bord na gCon's solicitors?

Mr. Foley

No. We have the money and it will be paid in due course.

Is Mr. Tynan a person of independent means? I assume that he does not have a job as yet.

Mr. Taggart

He is a man of independent means.

Will Mr. Taggart indicate the total settlement and legal costs likely to arise from the proceedings in which Bord na gCon engaged with Mr. Tynan?

Mr. Taggart

There is a confidentiality agreement and we are not allowed to disclose that information. Otherwise, we would be in serious difficulties. I will provide the Deputy with the facts — Mr. Tynan had been with the board for one year of his three-year contract, which could potentially have been a rolling contract and the settlement would be no more exorbitant than the normal settlement in respect of a chief executive leaving any organisation. The numbers are confidential and must remain so.

The norm in such a settlement would be for a couple of years' pay plus a significant contribution to the departing chief executive's pension arrangements.

Mr. Taggart

While one cannot say, the Deputy is not wrong by much. We do not pay more than the normal, but we cannot disclose the numbers for reasons of confidentiality.

I should have begun by making a personal confession that might cheer Mr. Taggart. I was brought up with dogs, as everyone in my mother's family had them. I appreciate the work done in recent years in transforming a dilapidated industry that mainly attracted men in old raincoats. That said, does Mr. Taggart accept that the committee's members and the leader of an Opposition party have a duty to examine issues relating to the expenditure of public money regardless of what sports they enjoy or whether they have the time to attend racing meetings?

Mr. Taggart

There is no doubt about that.

It is not personal. Rather, it is part of the job of someone like Deputy Rabbitte, who was a member of this committee for a long period and, as leader of an Opposition party, one day hopes to hold ministerial office. It is his job to ask questions.

Mr. Taggart

He was not commenting on the finances of the situation. The Deputy's party was engaging in throw-away comments to the effect that I should stand down. Recently, someone said that I should be sacked before the report is published.

Mr. Taggart

I accept that every politician, particularly the members of this committee, have every right to determine whether finances are well spent, but the financial controller and I have an equal responsibility.

In light of the Deputy Joe Higgins's questions, what Mr. Foley has told the committee and what has emerged from the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, does Mr. Foley not consider that an apology is in order? Many of us would like to see the greyhound industry continuing to be successful, but everyone is in a bad place. There is an opportunity for Mr. Foley to indicate whether, on mature reflection, he should have told the committee more.

Mr. Foley

I certainly had no intention not to divulge all the information. The questions asked of me were in the context of fraud and irregularity. I had no evidence to suggest that anything else was wrong. The concerns articulated by the committee related to the fraud issue, but I had no concerns in respect of any other matter of fraud. If people believe that I was not frank in my answers, such was not my intention.

In Mr. Taggart's statement, he referred to the expansion of the industry and, on page 2, the great deal of money involved in gambling. He correctly spoke about people in the greyhound industry being ordinary who would not be in a position to own all or part of a horse but could own a couple of dogs. What about the increasing numbers of punters, young people having a night out in Shelbourne Park or Harold's Cross? I have not been to invited to major Bord na gCon events but I have attended ordinary events. I do not want an invitation.

Mr. Taggart

I cannot give the Deputy an invitation.

Does Mr. Taggart not agree that the two main issues are the welfare of the dogs and bitches, and the integrity of the betting process when there is major turnover? The punters deserve high levels of assurance. Why should people have confidence in this sport in light of what has emerged over the past six months?

Mr. Foley

In order to have confidence in the industry and the betting market, it is important to consider this in relative terms. The committee has not yet considered that today. Of the 6,113 tests in Ireland in 2005, 1.13% were positive. Most of these positive results were for therapeutic substances, a residue of a substance given to the dog for an injury. When non-therapeutic substances and caffeine are excluded, the level of positive results for substances we wish to eradicate, stoppers and drivers, is 0.31%. Caffeine should be excluded because the World Anti-Doping Agency has declared that it is no longer a banned substance because it is not believed to be performance enhancing. Comparing this to an international benchmark, the World Anti-Doping Agency has a positive rate of 2.13%. In relative terms that is significant.

Our level of testing can be compared with this sport internationally and with other sports. In the UK, 10,000 samples are taken each year. This seems high but as a percentage of dogs running it amounts to 2%. In Ireland 6,113 tests represent 4.6% of dogs running, twice the percentage of dogs running as the UK and more than most jurisdictions in Australia. The Irish Sports Council took 775 samples across all sports. With a relatively restricted budget over 6,000 samples have been taken. Will the percentage of positive results for non-therapeutic substances decrease if the total number of tests increase?

The Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, is frequently featured in Bord na gCon literature and newspaper coverage of Bord na gCon events. Did he and Bord na gCon discuss doping and how to create an independent structure as identified by Mr. Dalton? Has Mr. Taggart or the chief executive made any proposals to the Department or the Minister?

Mr. Taggart

The problem is that we are governed by the Greyhound Industry Act 1958. It takes a long time to amend legislation in the Oireachtas. We would like to see changes but one needs much time and energy to pass legislation. A new Act is needed.

Mr. Taggart stated that he was appointed by Mr. Dick Spring and given a difficult task. Are Limerick, north Kerry and north Tipperary the areas with the highest rates of dog ownership?

Mr. Taggart

Wexford, Kilkenny and Clonmel are also significant areas.

Did discussions with the Minister take place to discuss the most important issue, along with dog welfare, that affects the industry in the long term?

Mr. Taggart

We discussed all these matters. The Dalton report makes many recommendations and will be considered a watershed. Although I will no longer be the chairman, certain measures are not workable but others will work well. The new chief executive officer will undertake that task. However, legislation is difficult to pass as the Deputies are aware.

Was Mr. Taggart surprised at the Minister's comments about him? Did the Minister not value Mr. Taggart's contribution to the industry? As a businessman with much experience, was Mr. Taggart disappointed with the level of oversight provided by the Department and the Minister?

Mr. Taggart

I was delighted with the Minister's comments in his personal letter to me and in his press release. I did not expect him to go so far. I was overjoyed that he put his views in print. He has acknowledged my contribution, which I did not seek. I had to explain to the committee what I have achieved and this is not my style.

Mr. Taggart has contributed a considerable amount. Many people are satisfied with the expansion of the greyhound industry. Who appointed the chief executive?

Mr. Taggart

Three members of the board appointed the chief executive. I was not one of these three because I had problems with the previous selection process and a board member took legal action against me. I favoured another candidate rather than his preferred candidate and the matter went to the High Court. We had to pay high fees. Rather than exacerbate the problem, I excluded myself from the process.

Was the decision unanimous?

Mr. Taggart

Yes.

Consultants are often hired for appointments to major positions. Was that the case in this instance?

Mr. Taggart

We hired MERC Partners. Interviews took place and everything was done correctly.

The Department with responsibility for agriculture was previously in charge of Bord na gCon. Was it a good idea to transfer responsibility to the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism? Considering animal welfare issues, is the Department of Agriculture and Food in a better position to work with Bord na gCon than the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism?

Mr. Taggart

I have great admiration for the Secretary General of the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism. It was an extremely bad choice to move responsibility for the greyhound industry away from a Department which has dealt with animals since 1922. I absolutely agree with Deputy Hayes. It should not have been moved because the Department of Agriculture and Food understands animals. It deals with farmers and issues relating to animals all day every day.

Will Mr. Taggart expand on that point?

Mr. Taggart

I dealt with the Department with responsibility for agriculture for six years. It was accustomed to dissidents writing in about various issues such as people getting preferential treatment. More importantly, it is long established and accustomed to dealing with thoroughbred horses, cattle and greyhounds, which it did extremely effectively. Given that the Department with responsibility for agriculture had 50 or 60 years experience of the greyhound industry, it was unfair to land the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism with it.

The industry is not easy to deal with because everyone in it has an opinion. Some people think I do it right and others think I do it wrong. The Department with responsibility for agriculture was accustomed to these opinions and it was also used to the many dissidents who wrote in rubbish. It threw that rubbish in the bin whereas the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism never saw that rubbish before.

Does the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism employ vets?

Mr. Furlong

No. We use vets made available to us by the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Essentially, responsibility for Bord na gCon was given to a Department which does not employ a vet. It is a crazy situation. Deputy Deenihan brought a Bill on independent testing before the Dáil where it was rejected. Will Mr. Taggart comment on that Bill? Did he see it or was he aware of it?

Mr. Taggart

The greyhound business has great supporters, including Deputies O'Donoghue, Walsh and Deenihan and former Deputy Dick Spring. We speak with them all of the time. Deputy Deenihan talked Mr. Foley and I through his Bill and we liked it. As I stated previously to the committee, and I mean it most sincerely, I hated being chairman of the control committee. It was one of the worst jobs I had in my life and I would not like the next chairman to have to do it. An independent control committee is a must.

The larger issue is whether we hand over the regulation to new people who do not know what they are doing. We cover and police regulation well. The public, other than these couple of cases, has trust in the industry's integrity. I do not agree with the proposal to move the entire area. Costs will go up because it will be given to new people who are not as parsimonious as we are.

Deputy Deenihan's Bill was on a separate control committee. Deputy Deenihan is a great friend to the industry and would not do anything against it. He is a great guy and I admire his integrity. Deputy O'Donoghue has also been a great supporter, I would not go against that. We are getting into a political sphere where a Bill introduced by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats is all right but a Bill introduced by Fine Gael and Labour is not. Politicians must decide what is best for politics.

We will return to the matter of the policy.

Plans were in place for the various stadia throughout the country. I will mention the one in Clonmel where I recently met Mr. Taggart. What will happen to those plans? Will they be kept in place? The large stadium in south Tipperary has major potential.

Mr. Taggart

This is where combined party support would be extremely welcome. The Horse and Greyhound Racing Act is necessary for both industries. A large number of tourists attend horse and greyhound racing events. We do not want to see everyone working in the IFSC. We want to see people working in Knocknagoshel, Clonmel and Lifford. This is a political matter.

Development under Horse and Greyhound Racing Act must continue. If I approach the Secretary General with a budget for developing Clonmel or Kilkenny, which should be done as a matter of importance, the Department will tell me — as it has done in the past — that unless the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act is renewed, it cannot be paid for. It is a chicken and egg situation and it is the same for the horseracing industry which wants to develop the Curragh and other venues.

The accountants state funding is available until 2008 but it may not be available afterwards. Politicians of all parties should get together and realise this is the best thing ever to happen to horseracing in terms of facilities, community centres and tourists. It should be removed from the political arena and given certainty. We receive €13.5 million per year for 17 tracks. In the UK the industry receives £21 million for 31 tracks. However, we do a far better job than them. We do not waste it. We had the embarrassing matter about Shelbourne Park and I will be embarrassed about it until the end of my days.

Mr. Foley is an extremely conscientious man. We looked after that money well. We did smart things such as getting 81 houses in Harold's Cross with eight residents committees. We received €15 million and spent €10 million of that on Harold's Cross. We have been extremely smart. However the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act must be continued, otherwise Clonmel, Kilkenny, Youghal and Enniscorthy will be in jeopardy.

I welcome Mr. Taggart. We have not met before but I have seen him on television. I have questions for him, but I will address Mr. Foley first. He has been here before. At the start of the meeting he was asked about the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. When did he receive it?

Mr. Foley

Some time in April of 2004.

That was following the meeting with us. I can see from the way he answers the questions that Mr. Taggart is a hands-on man. I presume after the meeting with this committee the matter was discussed at the next board meeting he attended.

Mr. Foley

It was discussed at a subsequent meeting.

Was the PricewaterhouseCoopers report available at that subsequent board meeting?

Mr. Foley

Yes.

As the Accounting Officer of the day, Mr. Foley knew that issues and concerns were raised and that this committee had expressed an interest in the contents of that report. However, we received nothing from Mr. Foley for two years. Many of the issues we are addressing today are old. Had our committee received the report at the time we would be proceeding in a different direction today. In my view, Mr. Foley will be judged badly on that point. A couple of weeks after leaving a meeting with this committee he received the report which was then produced at the next board meeting but nothing came back to us. That is why we are addressing some of these issues today.

Mr. Foley

In retrospect I did not think to send it to the committee. The board probably considered it in September or October and I should have sent a copy of the final report to the committee.

I make the point because had we addressed these issues two years ago the situation might have been somewhat different.

I agree with Mr. Taggart that greyhound racing has changed significantly during his time. I had a dog for a short time. I bought it in a pub one night, but that is another day's work. I had thoroughly good fun. I can recall the facilities from when I went greyhound racing with my father and they have changed. Mr. Taggart went through the number of meetings, attendances and prize money, all of which have grown significantly. How many people are employed by Bord na gCon?

Mr. Foley

We have approximately 600 or 700 full-time and part-time employees. Approximately 500 of them are part-time. Having checked my documentation I can state the exact number is 686 people.

The numbers are quite substantial.

Mr. Foley

Another 500 or 600 people would work part-time, on an event, in the provision of a bar, catering services and so forth, who would not be directly employed by us but by franchisees.

I presume that number has grown in recent years, in line with turnover, events and so forth.

Mr. Taggart

That would not include our franchise catering operation. There are thousands of people——

Mr. Foley

There would be thousands——

And the numbers would grow over time.

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. There are thousands of people.

Mr. Taggart spoke to Deputy Boyle about 15 people. He then came back and referred to six people. I am not worried about the six but am intrigued at the nine who took redundancy. In a business that was growing, where were the redundancies coming from or what was happening?

Mr. Taggart

They were older people who wanted to move on and we felt their jobs were getting beyond them. Many people wanted to go. They were natural redundancies with no real aggravation or union——

Except for the six.

Mr. Taggart

Yes, except for the six, where obviously there were legal issues. The rest went of their own accord.

In regard to the six combined, what was the total settlement. I know there are confidentiality clauses——

Mr. Taggart

The situation is that one man, who was very senior, received €49,000. Another man who was also senior, received €90,000, as he had many years service. The others received sums of €7,000, €30,000, €15,000 and €44,441. A sum of €125,704 was a legal judgment, €28,800 for a short-time employee and €51,000 for another guy who was there for some time and €19,000. They are the figures. We will be very happy to supply the committee with the schedule.

Mr. Foley

We can supply the schedule without the names.

That would be good because it brings clarity to that question.

Mr. Taggart

It is not a large amount over ten and half years.

I am not disputing that but the issue has come up in the report and Mr. Taggart has the factual information.

Mr. Taggart

I am amazed at the way it has come up in the report.

Since the report process began, which was February, have there been any further severance payments?

Mr. Taggart

There were redundancies because Mr. Tynan took on many staff, which was bringing down our financials. The way the board looked at it, and the way Mr. Foley and I looked at it — Mr. Foley and I were the most financially-minded members of the board — was that we wanted to have a surplus of €5 million for capital expenditure each year. That was our figure, €5 million, and we were getting it. That dropped down to €4,900,000 and was going to get worse because he took on too many people. He took on people whom we believed would not add value. Therefore, when we had this problem with Mr. Tynan we started, in December of last year, to have redundancies but they were only people who had been there for three or four months, or six at most.

How many people did he take on?

Mr. Foley

Approximately 25 or 26 people, of which the board would have approved about four.

Were they at a level where it would it be normal for the board to approve their appointments?

Mr. Foley

The procedure was that the chief executive would have the authority to recruit people under a certain level. He would have approached the board with regard to the four main employees but had discretion with regard to the others. He certainly took on more than 24 or 25 people.

Mr. Foley need not go into too much detail, but of the 25 he took on, in what categories were they employed and what were they supposed to do? I seek only a broad outline.

Mr. Foley

There was a significant number of assistant racing managers to racing managers——

Mr. Taggart

IT was another one.

Mr. Foley

IT was beefed up considerably.

Mr. Taggart

We were trying to become number one in the world for inter-tote so that a person living in Honolulu, China, England or wherever——

Mr. Foley

IT, quality assurance, just a lot of administrators. IT was the only one that it was really necessary to beef up.

Of those 24 or 25 people, are they all being made redundant?

Mr. Taggart

No.

Mr. Foley

Not all, certainly.

What proportion is being made redundant?

Mr. Foley

Probably about 50% of them in the first phase, 50% or 60%, of which all have been affected now.

Were there any significant severance packages for any of them?

Mr. Foley

None, because they were all only there for up to 18 months, so the severance package was one or two month's salary. The figure would be in the thousands.

Mr. Taggart, I want to talk about the doping. I am interested in the figures. I was encouraged to see the scale of the sampling. It is purely random, is it not?

Mr. Taggart

It is totally random. If an animal is in a final, any final worth more than a certain amount, it will be tested. Every dog in every final worth more than a certain amount is tested. Does the Deputy want to know the figures?

No, that does not matter.

Mr. Taggart

The rest of the testing is random, purely random.

Of the 6,000 tests, approximately 60 were positive, or roughly 1%.

Mr. Taggart

Yes, just over 1%.

Between 60 and 70 of the tests were positive and of those, two-thirds did not count because the drugs were administered for therapeutic purposes or some other reason.

Mr. Taggart

The amounts were modest, yes.

One third of the positive tests did count, which means that 20 or 30 were problem cases. Did Mr. Taggart have to see all of those?

Mr. Taggart

Yes. I do not know whether the Deputy is impressed with that answer.

I am interested in the procedure. A report was given to Mr. Taggart on all of the positive tests, two thirds of which were deemed to be over the limit for therapeutic reasons. Was anything done in those cases? Was anyone fined?

Mr. Taggart

Yes. In every case, they would be fined.

Irrespective of the circumstances?

Mr. Taggart

Irrespective. They were fined and in every case they also lost the prize money.

Were they published?

Mr. Taggart

No. The therapeutic ones were not published and the serious ones were.

Did the likes of caffeine fall into the therapeutic category?

Mr. Foley

One or two years ago we changed our stance on caffeine. Use of caffeine was classified as publishable as a second offence but because it is a non performance-enhancing substance, the board has not published the details.

Would the new procedures as proposed in the Dalton report for the control of doping represent an improvement?

Mr. Taggart

No. On the issue of a separate control committee, that would definitely be an improvement. I also agree with the proposal that all results should be published because nobody has any excuse now. However, handing the regulatory services over to people on a contractual basis could result in them running away with the money. We are doing a very good job in terms of sampling and so forth. To place that outside the remit of Bord na gCon would be a big mistake. That takes a great deal of money and the board does not want somebody spending its money.

We have spoken about the cost of various court hearings, regarding employment, the tote and so forth. Over recent years, what has the total legal bill been to Bord na gCon? If Mr. Foley does not have the figure to hand, perhaps he will send it to the committee at a later date.

Mr. Foley

The profit and loss charge for 2002 was €440,000; 2003, €469,0000; 2004, €431,000; 2005——

Mr. Taggart

That could be for tenders, acquisitions on land, it is not all legal cases, but most of it is.

Mr. Foley

Most of those amounts are made up of three or four big cases. One was the Danny Reilly vs Bord na gCon case, another was related to the termination of employment of an individual employee, where the board had a part-time regulation manager.

Going through those figures, the board is just shy of €500,000 per year, running. That does not include, I presume, the contingent liability for the tote, going forward.

I would like to go back to the Dalton report. Mr. Dalton was invited to inquire into events at Bord na gCon, principally because of the dismissal of Mr. Tynan and the issues arising from, and surrounding, that dismissal. In Mr. Taggart's opening statement today, he gave a great deal of weight to the fact that the bottom line profitability of Bord na gCon seemed to be in decline, as illustrated by financial figures provided to the board in October of 2005.

Mr. Taggart

Only while these 25 people were being taken on because their costs had to be absorbed.

Mr. Taggart seems to be suggesting the cash turnover at the turnstiles was also declining.

Mr. Taggart

No; I do not know if I suggested that but it is not the case. I can supply the figures which reveal they were vibrant at the turnstiles.

I regarded Mr. Taggart's statement as being severely critical of Mr. Tynan.

Mr. Taggart

Correct.

As I understand the statement, Mr. Taggart attached significant weight to the fact that the bottom line profitability of the company seemed to be in decline when he was provided with the figures.

Mr. Taggart

No, that is not the case.

What weight would Mr. Taggart give to this?

Mr. Taggart

We can supply the exact figures but 25 extra people at head office, with 20 cars, cost a lot of money.

We will obtain the figures.

Mr. Taggart

Profitability has not declined but costs were going out the window.

Paragraph 4.6 of the Dalton report states:

The Chairman's concern about the apparent drop in bottom line profitability, as disclosed by the provisional October figures, was not surprising. The Financial Controller, Mr Foley, did explain to the Board at the 29 October Board meeting that the provisional figures, which had been prepared at speed and sent directly to the Chairman, had not been vetted either by himself or by the Chief Executive, in advance of the meeting, and that the figures appeared to be wrong in certain respects.

That struck me as flimsy ground on which to stand a case for the dismissal of a chief executive.

Mr. Taggart

One has to realise what was happening. It is not merely a matter of numbers. We had to consider the people he was bringing in, the tasks they were carrying out and how they were undermining morale. The 25 people concerned, with cars and pension rights, cost a lot of money. The board and I had to evaluate whether they would contribute to the future well-being of the industry and we took the view that they would not. In fact, they were getting in the way of proper procedures and the situation was deteriorating.

Before Mr. Taggart justifies the figures, I want to put a question to Mr. Foley. Mr. Dalton stated Mr. Foley had conceded the figures were incorrect in certain respects. In what respects were they incorrect? This was one of the planks on which the dismissal of the chief executive stood but it is a flimsy plank if the figures were incorrect.

Mr. Foley

The figures presented to the board by the executive in October were correct. They were reviewed by the chief executive and me prior to their release. The chairman had concerns about the significant number of people being employed by the board.

With respect, Mr. Foley's statement is the complete opposite of paragraph 4.6, which states: "The financial controller, Mr Foley, did explain to the Board at the 29 October Board meeting that the provisional figures, which had been prepared at speed and sent directly to the Chairman, had not been vetted either by himself or by the Chief Executive, in advance of the meeting, and that the figures appeared to be wrong in certain respects". Is Mr. Dalton wrong?

Mr. Foley

When we hold a board meeting, a board presentation pack is compiled which includes all the cash flows and projections. The chairman asked that a separate exercise be carried on a projection for 2006 based on labour increases which would only obtain for a certain period. This was carried out by one of the accountants on the board and released to the chairman before the board meeting. It was not a paper prepared for the board.

What was wrong with it?

Mr. Foley

The labour figure presented was, by and large, correct and showed a significantly increased level. The marketing expenditure had been overstated, as had the cost projection on prize money. When the chairman presented the figures at the meeting, I clearly saw that they did not reconcile with the 2005 projected outturns. I made the board and everybody else aware of that fact. The key concern of the board at the time was that the level of costs being absorbed would become unsustainable. That would not be fully reflected in the 2005 accounts because most of the new staff were hired in the latter half of that year.

In effect, Mr. Tynan was hiring too many additional staff and their salaries, PRSI payments and ancillary benefits represented a significant expense.

Mr. Foley

In addition, a significant increase in marketing spending——

This is a serious issue because it was given great weight as grounds for dismissing Mr. Tynan. However, Mr. Dalton noted that, of the additional annual staff costs, €300,000 was attributable to board approved staff appointments and that, in respect of the remaining €900,000, many of the appointments had been made at the board's behest, although not with its formal approval. If the board is responsible for between one third and one half of the expenditure, how is that grounds for Mr. Tynan's dismissal?

Mr. Taggart

It is very simple. When a new chief executive joins an organisation and makes requests for personnel, the board believes he knows what he is doing and that an improvement in the industry will result. We are keen to improve our cash flow. However, after looking at the people Mr. Tynan had brought in and the tasks he had assigned to them, it was clear to the board that a lot of them would never add one shilling to the bottom line. We had to give Mr. Tynan a chance to develop a strategy and to hire the people concerned but, when we examined what they were doing, we unanimously agreed that they would never generate income for the board and that the only direction would be downhill.

Mr. Taggart might well have been right but that is not the point.

Mr. Taggart

We were right.

However, that is not my argument. The bulk of this expenditure was authorised by the board when it agreed Mr. Tynan could hire the extra staff. That does not give the board grounds to fire him subsequently.

Mr. Taggart

It absolutely does. Mr. Tynan came to the board to seek staff.

To which the board agreed.

Mr. Taggart

We agreed because he had asked for them. We did not drill down to ask whether they were necessary. When we examined their performance and what they would do for the industry, we found that they were affecting morale, cash flow and that, if they were to continue in their jobs, we would run a deficit. We had considered the ideas suggested for Hard Rock Cafés, seven-day sports licences and crèches but never signed off on them because they did not feel right. We wanted to see what would happen. He took on all the people concerned to develop these projects. My board members criticised him from an early stage but I told them we had to give him a chance. However, when we investigated the performance of the people concerned and his plans, we said, "This will not work." We told him it would not work and that we did not want it. However, he did not listen. He wanted to go ahead with what he was doing. He was on television and radio yesterday and still thinks the future is sports bars and Hard Rock Cafés. The Secretary General has pointed out that if we get involved in such enterprises, we will be in direct competition with pubs, bars and restaurants in places such as Limerick and Kilkenny. Therefore, he had a double problem. However, he would not listen.

That is all reflected in the report.

Mr. Taggart

We had to give him a chance and allow him to bring the people concerned in but found they were going to harm our results.

I want to explain my position.

Mr. Taggart

I accept that.

Mr. Taggart's opening statement, in the way it focused on Mr. Tynan, was as tough a statement as this committee has heard. When one reads the Dalton report, there is balancing material.

Mr. Taggart

Mr. Dalton is a civil servant and not used to sacking people. He has probably never sacked anybody. That is factual.

I will let that pass.

Mr. Taggart

If the Chairman can prove otherwise, he may let me know.

We let many comments pass in the interests of pursuing a matter. Mr. Furlong probably believes the committee thinks the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism has extensive expertise in ballet dancing and violinists but would not know a dog from a donkey, if remarks about his Department and the Department of Agriculture and Food are to be believed. We did not pursue that issue either. However, I want to pursue this because Mr. Taggart made a hard statement at the beginning and gave grounds for Mr. Tynan's dismissal.

I ask Mr. Taggart to look at page 37, paragraph 3.21. In his opening statement he said a television programme had asserted that whatever the proximate cause of Mr. Tynan's dismissal, the actual cause, as presented by Mr. Charlie Bird, was that he had disagreed with the non-publication of the results on owners A and B in the Dalton report. Mr. Taggart strongly disagrees with this.

Mr. Taggart

I totally disagree.

Mr. Taggart has said that not only did he omit to put his objections forcefully at the relevant meeting, he probably would not have commented at all if Mr. Taggart had not asked him a direct question.

Mr. Taggart

I stand over that.

Then his contribution lasted approximately one minute.

Mr. Taggart

One and a half minutes.

He certainly dissented from the decision not to publish.

Mr. Taggart

He did not. I was generous to him. He said he thought they should be published. When we reached the end and started to make decisions, I assigned the figure of 4.1 to him without his making any further comments. I was more than generous.

I want to take Mr. Taggart to paragraph 3.21. When Mr. Dalton evaluated this issue, there was a written report on file. It was a controlled committee minute.

Mr. Taggart

Yes.

He based his evaluation on this. I will quote from the report: "The staff members present consider that the report by the head of regulation reflects in substance what tooks place whereas the chairman and three other committee members present are adamant that the report does not properly reflect what took place". It goes on to argue that the view of Mr. Taggart and three other members was that Mr. Tynan had dissented, as Mr. Taggart described. According to the report and the staff members present, there was significant dissent and, to put it at its mildest, the version of events Mr. Taggart has given to the committee is not agreed by everybody present. Although a significant number of those who were present could contend with Mr. Taggart's version of events, he and three other members fully agree with what he said.

Mr. Taggart

May I explain it?

Mr. Taggart

I am delighted the Chairman has brought this up. We never had minutes of controlled committee meetings since 2003-04. It did not occur. I am amazed at Mr. Dalton's view. Mr. Tony McKenna, one of our board members, spoke for three quarters of an hour on the subject. Mr. Frank O'Connell spoke for half an hour, while I spoke for ten minutes because I am not an expert in this field. I do not like controlled committee meetings and do not know about what should and should not be done. Mr. O'Leary who had not produced minutes in the four years because he had not been asked to do so, produced a minute for himself and Mr. Tynan. The committee never saw this minute which went straight to the Minister. Although Mr. McKenna had spoken for three quarters of an hour, he was not mentioned in Mr. O'Leary's minute. Therefore, that minute is a lie. Mr. Dalton must balance this. I will say this in court, if necessary. Although Mr. McKenna had spoken for three quarters of an hour and Mr. O'Connell for half an hour, they were not mentioned. Mr. Tynan had spoken for one and a half minutes and he was mentioned. This minute was not supposed to be available because nobody had taken minutes, yet it suddenly arrived with the Minister. There has been extensive correspondence with Mr. Dalton on this issue but he chose not to change it. Mr. McKenna and Mr. McConnell are livid because one cannot confuse three quarters of an hour and half an hour with not speaking. Would the Chairman agree?

It is not for me to agree or disagree. On page 38, Mr. Dalton——

Mr. Taggart

He did not deal with that very well. I am not critical but he told it badly.

He said: "In essence the view of these committee members is that the report does not reflect the contribution of one of their members, Mr. McKenna (who, on their recollection, did most of the questioning)".

Mr. Taggart

Correct. He spoke for three quarters of an hour.

Mr. Dalton added that it "tends to overstate the level of resistance (on the issue of non-publication) by Mr. Tynan (which the board describes as 'simply a comment in passing')".

Mr. Taggart

Is that not the fact?

He does not say this is factual, but only records what Mr. Taggart thinks.

Mr. Taggart

A civil servant is doing a job in which two people disagree on the minute. He does not mention the person who spoke for at least three quarters of an hour or the person who spoke for at least half an hour. He then ascribes a great decision to a person who spoke for one and a half minutes in nine hours. This is not balanced; it is ridiculous, rubbish, lies. I am happy to put that on the record and go to court. It is a fact.

Once Mr. Taggart says something, it is on the record. He does not need to specify.

Mr. Taggart

I am saying I am delighted to put it on the record.

I want to take Mr. Taggart back to where I am coming from——

Mr. Taggart

I believe the other members of that committee were not asked the right question. Dr. Jim Healy knew Mr. McKenna had spoken for three quarters of an hour because it is not possible to speak for three quarters of an hour, as I am speaking today for two or three hours, and not be on the record. That minute is a lie and was done to help the case with the Minister.

We normally do not use the word "lie" around here.

Mr. Taggart

I use it because any court of law would recognise that the omission of the fact that someone had spoken for three quarters of an hour was not innocent. We went into this in great detail at the board meetings. The person being perverted by Mr. O'Leary was not able to answer, but just said they were the facts. They were not.

Mr. Taggart has given strong answers.

Mr. Taggart

The reason is that after speaking for three quarters of an hour, one should receive some mention.

I want to move slightly forward——

On that point, why is Mr. O'Leary not present? He is head of regulation and featured prominently two years ago. He said that the regulatory controls in Bord na gCon were excellent. Why is the head of regulation not at the meeting?

Mr. Taggart

It was my decision. Does the Deputy think I want a man present who stood over a minute which was a lie? Other colleagues spoke for up to 45 minutes in that meeting but were not mentioned. The committee can summon him on another occasion and he can answer for himself.

This man is the head of the excellent regulatory regime.

Mr. Taggart

He was and he does a very good job in that area. It went wrong when he sided with Mr. Tynan. He was prepared to produce a minute which was a lie. Does the Deputy want me to be in the same room as that man? I am leaving tomorrow and never want to be in the same room as him.

I will let the Deputy ask further questions shortly. I will return to Mr. Taggart's opening statement. He indicated that the television report filed by Charlie Bird, which put forward the principle case for Mr. Tynan's dismissal as his disagreement with the board policy not to publish in the cases of trainer A and trainer B, was a major issue. Mr. Taggart's statement is contested by people who were at the same meeting. It is contested not only by Mr. Tynan but by staff members who were present and it is contradicted in the minute, with which Mr. Taggart says he disagrees.

Mr. Taggart

May I repeat myself? Mr. Dalton was a civil servant trying to please everybody. The case would never have got as far as a judge or jury because three quarters of an hour cannot be considered an oversight, nor half an hour. Where does the committee think all the recommendations came from? Who made the recommendations regarding publication in the two newspapers? Who made the recommendations to visit all the trainers? Who made the recommendations about doubling the numbers? The control committee staff made them but there is no mention of them in the minute. It is clearly a lie.

Whatever Mr. Taggart says.

Mr. Taggart

If the Chairman asked Dr. Jim Healy he would remember that the staff to whom I referred spoke for three quarters of an hour. This is where the Dalton report is weak, because Mr. Dalton could not even come to a decision on that issue.

We have to deal with the people Mr. Taggart brought with him. He has already told Deputy Joe Higgins he picked the delegation.

Mr. Taggart

Correct

Could I be helpful to Mr. Taggart again by turning to page 64?

Mr. Taggart

I am sure the Chairman is not trying to be helpful.

Does Mr. Taggart see paragraph (4)? The last sentence reads: "Whatever the merits of this argument the board was not entitled, having taken that view, to adopt a dismissal procedure which lacked the basic requirements of natural justice". Mr. Taggart made the argument very forcefully that matters concerning the record of the chief executive should not really be the subject of a grievance procedure but should be dealt with directly by the board.

Mr. Taggart

I have no doubt I am correct in that.

Mr. Dalton writes that whatever the merits of that position, Mr. Taggart is in breach of natural justice in the manner in which he handled the issue.

Mr. Taggart

Mr. Dalton is a civil servant and a lovely man who, in 40 years of service to the country, including fantastic work on the peace process, never had to sack a chief executive or a managing director. It is the one area he is not equipped for.

There is a vote in the Dáil on Aer Lingus which I cannot miss. I must go to the Dáil to vote against the privatisation of our national airline. I wish to come back.

The question is very simple.

Mr. Taggart

Do I agree that he did not get natural justice? No.

That was not the question. Why did Mr. Taggart not seek legal advice? Why did he not telephone Holmes O'Malley Sexton and say he had a problem with his chief executive and wanted advice as to how to proceed?

Mr. Taggart

We had an ongoing problem with the chief executive for four or five months, during which time he would not communicate. We had already received a letter from his solicitors so we engaged Holmes O'Malley Sexton and solicitor started talking to solicitor. That continued for a long time and cost more money. I and the board were at the end of our tether so we were delighted to make our decision and stand over it. I have given the reasons for that. Mr. Tynan was considering leaving in September. He had spoken to Mr. Foley and a deal was discussed. He had produced a minute which was not a minute and had written to the Minister. He knew he was in trouble when he wrote that letter.

One second. Mr. Taggart said earlier that he had been on many boards.

Mr. Taggart

I still am.

He still is. We all have different life experiences but we have also been around the houses. If one is contemplating firing a chief executive one does not proceed without making at least one call to a solicitor to ensure the correct procedures are followed.

Mr. Taggart

I disagree totally. The procedures do not apply.

The dogs on the track may not know it but the dogs on the street do. Issues of natural justice are recited in the newspapers every day. If one gets the natural justice issues wrong in the process of dismissing somebody one will be in trouble.

Mr. Taggart

That is not true. Clearly if AIB Bank, Cement Roadstone Holdings or Bord na gCon dismiss a chief executive or managing director we all know what happens. That person approaches his legal team and we do the same. They talk and we talk. They put a figure forward and we put a figure forward, on which we agree. Then we deal with the confidentiality agreement and the reference. After that, everybody goes their separate way. That is the way managing directors and CEOs operate. If the Chairman can show me any commercial organisation where it is done otherwise I would be happy to take on board his or Mr. Dalton's experience.

I say to the Chairman, the committee and Mr. Dalton that I believe I was 100% correct. The board supported me by seven votes to nil. As for natural justice, Mr. Tynan received his money. He wanted his money because he was already leaving in September. He received the maximum amount and will probably receive more because of the exposure by Charlie Bird and the newspapers. He did very well and natural justice does not apply.

I wish to return to the issue.

Mr. Taggart

Can we agree to disagree?

Mr. Taggart is not disagreeing with me but with Mr. Dalton.

Mr. Taggart

I totally disagree with Mr. Dalton because he has never had to sack anybody in his life. How could he possibly make a judgment about sacking a CEO or managing director without that experience? I do not care what Mr. Dalton says about that. He could teach me about North-South relations and foreign affairs, because I would not know where to begin. I suggest I have superior knowledge and experience in this field to Mr. Dalton. He is way ahead of me intellectually, has done a great job for the country and is a lovely man. I repeat that he is out of his depth on this issue.

He is not talking about the decision to sack but the procedures Mr. Taggart pursued. He has plenty of expertise on that matter.

Mr. Taggart

Procedures applied in the case of Mr. Foley and others. There are HR procedures for staff below CEO level but those procedures do not apply to chief executives or managing directors. The committee members should go through the financial pages and read reports of CEOs and managing directors who have been sacked in the past two years. They will find that procedures were not relied on. The process involved the board and solicitors. Mr. Dalton has no experience and has come to an erroneous judgment.

A high court decision dating from the late 1970s refers to the lack of procedures in place for the sacking of a Garda Commissioner.

Mr. Taggart

A Garda Commissioner is not a CEO or a managing director. This is not the Civil Service.

That is the case of precedent.

Mr. Taggart

Chairman——

It is the case of precedent in both the public and private sectors on natural justice. The man won his case and received damages.

Mr. Taggart

I am surprised the Chairman brought up the case of a Garda superintendent, who would be a civil servant.

He was not a Garda superintendent, he was a Garda Commissioner.

Mr. Taggart

He was a Commissioner. I know the case. A Commissioner is a different animal to the managing director of a company.

First-year law students know that case. I am surprised a man of Mr. Taggart's experience in business does not know that a person being dismissed has a right to natural justice. There are procedures underpinning that, although the person can still be dismissed.

Mr. Taggart

We dismissed the person. We dismissed him and he maximised the amount of money he received.

That is fair enough.

Mr. Taggart

To be fair to him, he probably would have been happy to go into the sunset except that somebody leaked this letter to Charlie Bird. Charlie Bird stated the man was sacked because of EPO. Even according to the Dalton report, he was not sacked because of his stance on EPO. It was ongoing over months. Whoever leaked this letter has a lot to answer for. I do not know who leaked it.

The fun will be whenever we have a little confrontation with Charlie Bird and RTE. We might win or maybe we will lose, but we are taking it on.

May we take Mr. Taggart back to another issue?

Mr. Taggart

Certainly. We are not doing very well, as the committee is taking the Civil Service approach. The Chairman has quoted the example of the Garda Commissioner. I am taking a factual commercial approach.

It is entertaining though.

Mr. Taggart

It is good. It is also probably good television. We should look to the television cameras.

I wish to ask Mr. Taggart another easy question.

Mr. Taggart

An easy question?

Mr. Taggart is of the view that there was great urgency about the removal of Mr. Tynan from office because the situation was deteriorating. Words were said to that effect.

Mr. Taggart

That is correct.

Mr. Taggart indicated it had gone on for several months.

Mr. Taggart

It went on for months. That is well documented.

In the report, Mr. Dalton points out that sometime in that period of months, around October or November, Mr. Tynan approached Mr. Taggart, and Mr. Taggart agreed that he and the chief executive of Horse Racing Ireland should be allowed to put in a joint submission for a significant salary increase.

Mr. Taggart

That is correct.

The salary increase was because they were doing such a good job.

Mr. Taggart

No. I am clearly an enthusiast for the greyhound industry, and I am also an enthusiast for the horse racing industry. I would be delighted if Mr. Tynan and Mr. Kavanagh, who is very good, got more money in their jobs. I would know that the next time we look for a CEO, with an increased salary available, we will get a very good applicant.

This job is quite significant, and the corresponding job at the HRI is very significant. On a relative scale, there is not enough remuneration. It was not a case of me stating that we had the greatest CEO in the world and that he should get paid much more money. If we do not move with the times it will affect us the next time we look for a CEO. In September he spoke to Mr. Foley about going. We spoke about a deal.

Mr. Foley

That was following the December board meeting.

So the agreement that he could apply for an increased salary from the appropriate authority was a cunning plan to facilitate the reward of the next chief executive?

Mr. Taggart

No. I am not as sinister as that. The board set out certain areas it was not happy about in October. Mr. Tynan did not move to change anything the board wanted done. He wanted to continue doing his own thing. He could be right for all I know, but the board did not want to adopt the Hard Rock Cafés, the seven-day sports licence, the crèches etc. We do not want that as we do not believe that approach to be the way forward. He could be right but we do not know.

If Mr. Tynan had stated that he would scrap certain things and agreed that a person was not suitable for a job, for example, or that we had to cut back in certain matters, we could have gone ahead. He was prepared to do nothing. There was no communication. There was potentially an enormous problem.

I would like Mr. Taggart's comments on paragraph 4.11 on page 60. Mr. Taggart stated that the publicity suggested that he was dismissed because of the non-publication.

Mr. Taggart

Yes.

It has been stated very strongly that Mr. Taggart and the board lacked confidence in Mr. Tynan and the costs were escalating. There were no results for the extra cost. I would like to quote this as Mr. Tynan spoke to Mr. Dalton and Mr. Dalton felt he should put it in his report in paragraph 4.11. It states:

I should add that Mr Tynan's personal view is that while all of the differences referred to earlier were there, his dismissal can, to a quite significant extent, be put down to something that has not been highlighted in debate on the issue i.e. that he began to raise questions about matters that took place prior to his appointment as Chief Executive. This is referred to at par 5.8.

That goes back to Shelbourne Park.

Mr. Taggart

I am delighted the Chairman is asking these questions. I can put my comments on record. I was amazed at paragraph 4.11 when I first got the report. I asked myself if I was losing it. Why was this so? I can provide minutes of copious board meetings where Mr. Tynan never mentioned any of these irregularities. I then received the letter dated 18 January to the Minister, which is all about EPO, on which he spoke for one and a half minutes. It contains nothing about irregularities.

I asked myself what the hell was going on. He never mentioned this in board meetings or it would be in the minutes. He never mentioned it to me as a chairman. He did not mention it in his letter to the Minister.

My summation of this is that if Mr. Tynan or Mr. O'Leary speaks to Mr. Dalton, he must put it in. There was not one word of it at a meeting, in a minute or in this EPO letter. We can hypothesise that he was right, and that would be interesting. Taking my case with Charlie Bird, for example, this is now the main reason he was sacked. Therefore he was not sacked for the EPO issue. We can see that Mr. Dalton, a man whom I admire and like, has produced a civil servant report.

One might expect to see a minute on the issue in the paragraph. Am I allowed to put a question to the committee?

Yes, but it may not answer it.

Mr. Taggart

The Chairman has quoted the paragraph where it states:

I should add that Mr Tynan's personal view is that while all of the differences referred to earlier were there, his dismissal can, to a quite significant extent, be put down to something that has not been highlighted in debate on the issue i.e. that he began to raise questions about matters that took place prior to his appointment as Chief Executive.

I put it to the committee that if the board never had any conversation about any irregularities and the Minister was not told of the concern about irregularities, how could we sack him about investigation of irregularities? That does not make any sense.

I can tell the committee the issue was not mentioned in the minutes or the letter to the Minister, how are we supposed to understand how Mr. Tynan was investigating these irregularities?

I understand what Mr. Taggart is saying.

Mr. Taggart

If Mr. Tynan did not highlight or mention the issues——

I understand that.

Mr. Taggart

If that was the case, would the committee believe that the paragraph should be debated and almost ignored? There is no evidence.

I would not ignore it, and I will tell the witness the reason.

Mr. Taggart

Good. This will be an education.

Mr. Dalton inserted that paragraph because he stated elsewhere in the report that he was provided with material that would require an investigation. He could not investigate the matter because it was outside his terms of reference.

Mr. Taggart

Yes.

He stated that he would communicate that material to the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Furlong, and that he felt that the most appropriate person to make an inquiry was Mr. Purcell, the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely.

Mr. Dalton indicated that he had done that. At the start of the meeting, Mr. Purcell indicated that he would carry out a special inquiry. He indicated in general terms the scope of the inquiry he intends to conduct.

Mr. Taggart

I have a small question.

I am not speaking for Mr. Dalton, I am only reading from his report. In my view that paragraph was included because it gives linkage. I am asking Mr. Taggart's opinion on that paragraph and he is saying it is nonsense.

Mr. Taggart

I ask a very simple question. If he had problems or concerns should he not have brought them before the chairman and the board and at least ask the questions? Why would he choose to ignore his problems rather than communicate them, even to the Minister. If he had a problem he could, surely, have mentioned in that letter.

I just do not know.

Mr. Taggart

I do not think the Chairman of this committee is being very honest. Imagine if one was the new chief executive of Bord na gCon in October 2004 and discovered these things, what would be the first thing one would do?

I stated already to Mr. Foley, if it was an issue like the generator I would go to the Garda.

Mr. Taggart

Would one keep it secret, all to oneself? If he had highlighted these things, I would laud him. However, he is saving them up for some reason. Was it like a savings account one keeps in the bank to use all at once?

The committee does not have the documentation to which Mr. Dalton referred, which gave the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General a prima facie reason to conduct an inquiry which it announced today. So there must be material of significance that the committee does not have.

Mr. Taggart

I do not know what he has. All I know is if a chief executive in any company I was associated with had a problem regarding fraud or anything else I would expect him to present it to the board. That is the only place I would expect him to take it. I would not expect him to bring it to Mr. Dalton seven months later. That is absolute rubbish. It does not make sense. Does the Chairman think it is reasonable that a chief executive can accumulate all of this information, keep it to himself, not mention it to Mr. Foley, to me, to the board, to the Minister, store it up and then throw it into Mr. Dalton's report? If so we are on different planets.

I am giving Mr. Taggart an opportunity to comment.

Mr. Taggart

I appreciate that because the Chairman is bringing out the minutes, which are lies. We are now bringing out something nobody can understand. I thank the Chairman for bringing up these issues because they are nonsensical.

Can I take this discussion in another direction?

Mr. Taggart

Certainly, because if people cannot understand this argument then I should give up.

This is not in the report but it arises from something Mr. Taggart said. He suggested a man with a greyhound or two might rub a therapeutic substance on a dog that causes a drugs test to return positive. Mr. Taggart said he saw small-time trainers with tears in their eyes, that the fines they faced were excessive and that he was tempted to pay the fines on their behalf.

Could Mr. Taggart evaluate the financial damage that could be done to a trainer by the publication of a positive test?

Mr. Taggart

We have published many positive tests, by the way. Everything has been published, against big trainers and small. Everyone is treated the same before us. Does the Chairman want an example?

What sort of money is involved in a successful dog going to stud?

Mr. Taggart

That is a very good question and it is a complicated area. Around seven or eight years ago the winning prize money for the derby was £100,000. A derby winning dog could earn from zero to £1 million when put to stud. This has become more complicated in recent years. Irish people are importing Australian stud dogs that have become very successful. The first prize in the derby this year is €175,000. However, it will be hard for the dog that wins to become established at stud. Dogs such as Brett Lee, Top Honcho and Honcho Black are taking over, Australian breeding is taking over. Artificial insemination is also available now. The top dog for the past four years was Top Honcho, an Australian import. We are now importing semen from Australia and Irish owners and breeders are losing out badly because the success rate of Australian dogs is very high.

In terms of being put to stud, an Irish breeder would pay €5,000 for the likes of Brett Lee even though he is taking the chance that it might not have pups. He will not pay €750 for the new Irish derby winner. This is a complicated situation. A breeder who owns 50 bitches and buys an Irish derby winner has a chance of getting it right. He will take his chances by putting the stud dog on 20 of them and if it comes right he will get his €1 million.

I appreciate that, however, I am trying to link the value of a dog at stud with the issue of whether a positive result was published. The value of a dog in stud is the genetic imprint that the dog can pass on to his progeny.

Mr. Taggart

Correct.

If the genetic imprint of a dog causes it to be fast, win races and be a good stayer, owners with bitches might want to take the bitches to that dog, whatever the fee might be. That dog might earn the €1 million to which Mr. Taggart referred.

Mr. Taggart

Correct. It is a one in a million chance.

That would be very different if there were any suspicion that the staying power of the dog was in question, especially as EPO increases the oxygen level in the blood. I do not know if it makes dogs faster but it certainly gives them greater staying power.

Mr. Taggart

Even the trainers do not know.

Supposing owners of bitches learned that the ability of a highly renowned dog may have had nothing to do with its transferable genetic imprint but rather was due to EPO. Would not the stud value of that dog fall a great deal?

Mr. Taggart

Without question.

Would it not be a very serious issue for an eminent trainer if his use of EPO on dogs were publicised?

Mr. Taggart

I see the train of the Chairman's thought.

I am trying to establish whether these considerations were taken into account when this decision was made.

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. We made one decision when we tested for EPO for the first time. After that we decided to publish the results of every EPO test in the future. We did not take any chances. This was not a derby dog or anything like it. We found in the tests that dogs were receiving EPO for medicinal reasons. When the tests proved positive we took out advertisements in the two greyhound papers publicising the positive tests and announcing that the fine for such breaches of the rules had been doubled. It is very expensive to prove that a dog is positive for EPO.

What the Chairman is suggesting will never happen again because we have taken the correct decision to test dogs and expose all positive results, especially those involving EPO. The occasion I mentioned was the first time an Irish track dog tested positive for EPO.

The difficulty faced by the owner, is not the embarrassment of seeing his name published, nor the level of the fine, though it might be onerous nor the loss of prize money. The difficulty lies in the fact that a positive test will cast doubt on the genetic imprint of a dog that has the potential to go to stud. The value of a dog kept for breeding purposes will fall.

Mr. Taggart

That cannot happen.

It could have happened up until now.

Mr. Taggart

No, because we were not testing.

One of the trainers stated he was using it for a considerable length of time.

Mr. Taggart

We were only testing in 2005 for EPO. It could have happened up to now, but cannot happen in the future.

That is because of the decision to publish all positive results.

Mr. Taggart

That is correct. Mr. Foley tells me that dogs in Britain are not testing for EPO.

Mr. Foley

Much confirmatory work is needed with every new drug before one can establish threshold levels.

EPO is not new in athletics, it figured in one of the major scandals in the Tour de France years ago.

Mr. Taggart

That is why we had a serious problem with EPO. Everyone knows it should not be given to athletes or animals. We gave it due consideration but we did not publish the positive test results for the first offence. We did very well in making our decisions and not ignoring it. In retrospect, I cannot believe how good we were.

Does Mr. O'Doherty have health and safety issues at present in Shelbourne Park?

Mr. Owen O’Doherty

The issues highlighted in September 2004 were primarily electrical and fire safety issues. Some electrical problems were dealt with immediately in November 2004. I recommended that mechanical and engineering consultants be brought in to carry out a survey of Shelbourne Park. RPS Engineering Services were appointed to assist with the survey. We met RPS Engineering Services on 14 December 2004 at Shelbourne Park. RPS Engineering Services, along with a team of electricians from Rotary Electrical Company, would conduct a survey at Shelbourne Park. They were asked to deal with any issues of immediate concern and subsequently prepare a report on the electrical issues at the facility. In January 2005, RPS Engineering Services had completed its report. Some issues had been dealt with at this stage by Rotary Electrical Company.

It was decided to carry out renovations to the corporate suites shortly after that and the outstanding work was to be incorporated into that development. The outstanding work was left undone for a number of months pending the proposed development, which did not proceed. In October 2005, while carrying out a hazard audit, I met the managing director who believed the development was unlikely to proceed. Shelbourne Engineering Ltd. was then contacted in December 2005 to deal with the outstanding electrical issues. In May 2006 we received certification for all electrical defects found and corrected since. On 4 May I received the report from Shelbourne Engineering Ltd.

Is certification granted by the Health and Safety Authority?

Mr. O’Doherty

The certification is from Shelbourne Engineering Ltd because under the rules for electrical installations it can carry it out. I could provide a copy of the rules to the committee.

What is the position with the Health and Safety Authority at present?

Mr. O’Doherty

Shelbourne Engineering Ltd. carried out work from November 2005 to May 2006 and all issues have been addressed.

What is the state of the other tracks?

Mr. O’Doherty

Curraheen Park is a relatively new stadium, as is the stadium in Galway. My remit includes Bord na gCon stadia. There is much wear and tear in such facilities from the installation of plasma screens or tote equipment. We seek to obtain relevant certification from contractors. With such wear and tear there will always be minor issues of housekeeping and maintenance issues but no significant hazard.

Why were the terms of reference of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report narrowed significantly? Who made that decision? Was that the decision of Mr. Taggart?

Mr. Taggart

No. That was decided by the chief executive and the solicitor.

Was it not discussed by the board?

Mr. Taggart

It was discussed by the board. We had a problem. The headquarters of the board is in Limerick, as are the solicitors. The solicitors approached the board and gave advice. The board did not decide everything. It agreed with whatever is put before it if it was reasonable.

In essence, the capacity of PricewaterhouseCoopers to carry out the comprehensive analysis first mooted was emasculated by the change in terms of reference. This was a serious decision.

Mr. Taggart

Our solicitors had dialogue with the chief executive in Limerick and then made proposals to the board. We examined them to see if they were reasonable. The board did not bore into that decision. The chief executive and the solicitors are near each other. The solicitors were eloquent and respected. If the chief executive and the solicitors, in whom we have total faith, suggested something, we would not seek to change it.

The change was not made for legal reasons, it was a governance issue. The board should be responsible for that.

Mr. Taggart

The board is ultimately responsible for governance decisions. We had a problem. The chief executives and the solicitors discussed it at length and probably charged us plenty of money. The board does not drill into every decision when it has paid for expertise. We take recommendations and I do not see how I or another director could change it.

Mr. Taggart could because, as chairman, he has overall responsibility.

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely, but I thought it was a reasonable thing to do.

Consider the incredible situation in Limerick, where a former chief executive officer leased company offices to his daughter-in-law. Some €70,000 had to be paid to retrieve the offices. That this could have happened is breathtaking. In view of that, the efficiency of corporate governance was one of the terms of reference and was badly needed. Mr. Taggart knew that from such lapses.

Mr. Taggart

I will give my side of the story. I agree with Deputy Higgins that the incident to which he referred is horrendous. At the time, it was my view that we take legal proceedings on it. However, it was the view of the chief executive and the legal advisers that the procedures would take too long and that we may not even win against Ms O'Connor. I had to bow to their wishes. I do not get my way all the time in business. People seem to think I make every decision.

I took little part in the decision on EPO but I agree with the summation. I disagreed with the situation in Limerick, which I found abhorrent. However, I was told it was a Limerick problem, that we should concentrate on the laboratory, and that an investor would give us millions. The committee must bear in mind I already had a serious confrontation months earlier. Just because I think it is unacceptable does not mean I can tell everyone else to do what I want them to do.

The fact it can happen raises major governance issues on how serious decisions are taken.

Mr. Taggart

Not at all. I was amazed to see what happened in Limerick. I thought it was completely unacceptable. However, I was prevailed upon by others who stated we must move on, and our legal advisers stated it was best to pay the person. What more could I do in such a situation? I do not dictate all the time but people think I do. In many cases, I make my feelings known and the committee has seen the correspondence. I was taken to court and the dogs on the street know about it.

Peculiarly enough, only Deputy Joe Higgins and Shane Coleman from The Sunday Tribune seem to be interested in the matter. Perhaps Deputy Higgins and I are different because everybody else knew about it and thought it was alright. I cannot dictate on every issue. I thought it was completely unacceptable and that is my view.

I wish to ask Mr. Foley whether Bord na gCon purchased any land or was involved in the purchase of land earmarked for a new stadium in Lifford.

Mr. Foley

The board never purchased land in Lifford.

Was a financial commitment in any sense made——

Mr. Foley

The only commitment from Bord na gCon to Lifford was a €5.1 million or £4 million grant paid as part of a grant aid structure.

It is a private track.

Mr. Foley

Yes, it is a private track and we granted it €5.1 million.

I will not go over old ground but on the previous occasion Mr. Foley was before the committee I recall being amazed that such a grant would be given without taking part ownership at least.

Mr. Foley

We have a registered security charge on it.

Why should the board carry the costs of the defamation taken by Mr. Owens against Mr. Curley who was a member of the board?

Mr. Taggart

That question was asked earlier. Mr. Curley and I would never have settled that case because we believed Mr. Curley would have won. We were insured up to £20,000 and the insurance company did not want to take the case. Had we gone further and lost, we would not have been covered by insurance. It cost us nothing.

If the case was brought on by a member of the board, why is it the responsibility of the board or the taxpayer to pick up the tab?

Mr. Taggart

Mr. Curley was carrying out the functions of the board at a meeting. Mr. Owens took a defamation act which I believe he would never have won in 100 million years. The insurance company did not want to take the action. He was working for the board and surely he was covered for doing the business of the board. I would have thought it was a sensible approach.

I had to leave to attend votes and to speak in the House so hope I did not repeat what other committee members already stated. Who did Mr. Taggart consult on the legal aspects of Mr. Tynan's dismissal?

Mr. Taggart

We went through this at great length with the Chairman. We did not consult anyone. We thought this man would leave from September onwards. We had a deal. Suddenly, a situation arose where we sacked him. Had I taken the best legal advice in the world, we would still have had the same result, which was that we let him go, legal personnel got involved and we settled. That is how it happens every time. One knows what the result will be because one has been through it before.

Who gave the legal advice to Bord na gCon?

Mr. Taggart

We did not need legal advice because I knew the inevitability of what would happen. Once we sacked him, we knew his legal advisers would get in touch with our legal advisers and that we would progress from there. We would end up paying both legal teams, which is how it is done, and 99.9% of cases in Ireland for the past 20 years have ended the same way. One does not have a choice. One does not need legal advice for something as obvious as that.

Today is Mr. Taggart's last day. As he is a hands-on chairman, does he regard his job with Bord na gCon as a full-time job? Traditionally, chairpersons of State companies are part-time. It seems by his presentation that he is the main man. Is that his view?

Mr. Taggart

No, that is not my view. I am more upset than anybody that Mr. Tynan did not work out. I wanted to see a chief executive in place with an excellent team. I want to put on record that Mr. Michael Foley is one of the best. I understand he did not give the committee the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. I do not understand why he did not, and neither does he. We make mistakes every now and then. He is a brilliant accountant and strategist.

Many excellent people work for the organisation. If the next chairman has an excellent chief executive, he will not need to put in the same amount of time as I did. I took over in the middle of a bad situation. Deputy Joe Higgins referred to one of the problems that existed when I took over and the outcome was not acceptable. However, I had to deal with all these issues.

The industry now pays well, and includes bonuses. It is now acceptable both to go greyhound racing and to work for the industry. Previously, one did not tell people when one went greyhound racing as one might be looked at as if one had two heads. When we place an advertisement in the newspapers for employees, we receive a high standard of applicants. We now have a structure in place. It is a pity Mr. Tynan did not work out. He is a very good chief executive officer but he was not our CEO. Let us be honest about it. He wanted to go a different road, to spend money and get it back. We did not want to do that.

Does Mr. Taggart agree a difficult scenario now arises because Mr. Taggart is gone and somebody else will come in? On page 69 of his report, Mr. Dalton discusses tensions and a poor state of staff morale now evident in Bord na gCon. A great deal of material gives credence to that, especially his second comment on the page that the posting on the Internet of material which was highly critical of identifiable members of the board's headquarter staff, apart from the chief executive, was a scurrilous development and the board should take an early opportunity to address the serious concerns it generated.

Mr. Higgins referred to legal costs——

Mr. Taggart

I was subjected to the same scurrilous treatment for many years on a certain website. We took legal advice and tried to get it closed down. We went to the United States to try to get it closed down. I was the subject of that all of the time. We were not legally able to do it. The only way I could satisfy myself in that regard was to stop reading it. Today I am getting scurrilous, horrendous e-mails. That is the Internet for you. I am sure politicians suffer in that regard in certain situations, particularly with the fracas that took place in the last few weeks involving the Attorney General and so forth. The Internet is with us. We had nothing to do it. It is happening to me on a regular basis. On three chat shows——

The people who are employees of an organisation tend to be in a somewhat different situation to the chairman of a major public body, like Bord na gCon, or an elected Member of this House. Such people may be lower down the line and Mr. Dalton is correct to be concerned about that.

Mr. Taggart

What can one do about it?

It may have something to do with the atmosphere and Mr. Taggart was challenging the assertion that morale was poor. If staff members are regularly commented upon on Internet chat rooms, that can be very tough for some individuals. Not everybody is as robust as Mr. Taggart.

Mr. Taggart

No, and I feel for these people because it is very wrong. However, because the Internet and e-mail is so readily available to people at a distance, they can post anything. Even though I am supposedly robust, I did not like these things. They made me very angry but I could do nothing about it. I became frustrated. The fact of me leaving will not change that. This could happen to Mr. Foley or to Mr. D. J. Histon in the future. If the latter gets it wrong with two or three people who decide they do not like him, they will blather away on the Internet because people like doing that.

Mr. Taggart spoke earlier about the existence of dissidents and said staff at the Department of Agriculture and Science threw material from dissidents into the rubbish bin.

Mr. Taggart

That is right, yes.

The Dalton report suggests, very quietly, that it is rather odd that there are no women on this State board when, as Mr. Taggart probably knows, it is Government policy that at least 40% of any board must comprise either women or men, to provide for gender equality. The Department had a woman, Ms Nugent, as a member of the board but——

Mr. Taggart

At one stage we had three women on the board and they were excellent members. We have had superb women on the board. It just happens not to be so at this point in time. In political terms, at the end of the day, political parties engage in political patronage, do they not? That is the way they appoint all boards. If Deputy Burton's party is in power next week, and it could well be, it will do the same and——

Given Mr. Taggart's comments about the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism as against the Department of Agriculture and Food, whose staff threw material from dissidents into the bin and paid no attention to it, would the board have been open and welcoming of a representative from the current parent Department?

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. There is no question about that. We would love to have a representative of the Department on the board. The report recommends that the board increase from seven to nine members. That is a good recommendation and gives the Minister a chance to put two women on the board. We have had very good experiences with women because they bring a different perspective.

Is it true that Mr. Taggart wrote to the Minister suggesting the remuneration of the chief executive, Mr. Tynan, might merit being increased and that his remuneration level was somewhat lower than other chief executives of State boards?

Mr. Taggart

Absolutely. I dealt with that earlier.

What level did Mr. Taggart suggest it should rise to?

Mr. Taggart

I am all for the greyhound industry and therefore, the better the people we employ, the more the industry benefits. I would have thought that the remuneration should be €150,000 per year plus pension and bonuses. That is what I would suggest because one wants the best and wants board members like me not to be interfering. For example, Mr. Foley could get a job anywhere for €250,000 but he stays in Limerick because he wants to be there. I would give him a job at €250,000 with any of the companies I have but he is special and wants to stay in Limerick. One would have to pay €150,000 plus or €200,000, given the amounts that are available in the commercial sector. There are people in that sector earning €200,000 who would not be as good as the chief executives of State boards.

I look forward to the time when women and departmental representatives are on the board. I have to admit I think the latter should be from the Department of Agriculture and Food because it deals with animals, farmers and so forth, but that is not my decision. I have great time for Mr. Furlong and his expertise in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism but I do not think he particularly likes the greyhound industry because it is not a nice industry. There are too many people involved. There are 20,000 owners and one cannot keep them all happy. Perhaps 200 or 500 of them become unhappy and decide that I, Paschal Taggart, am manipulating the trap draw. Such accusations have been made against me on numerous occasions.

Given the comments Mr. Dalton made regarding the procedures used in the dismissal of the chief executive, does Mr. Taggart foresee it taking a long time to pay the compensation package to the former chief executive?

Mr. Taggart

We would normally pay within 24 hours of a package being agreed. I am amazed to hear that he has not been paid. It is out of our cash holdings and is with his solicitor. It is not our money any longer. Obviously, whatever tax issues there are will be dealt with. I do not know what is going on. I was surprised at that but we have effectively spent that money. We do not have access to it. It is not in our bank accounts.

Mr. Foley

No, we still actually have the money.

Mr Taggart

It is in escrow.

Mr. Foley

No it is not. Effectively we still have the money. We are just waiting for tax clearance with regard to the manner in which it is being paid.

Mr. Taggart

It just shows——

Would Mr. Taggart agree that unless that matter is cleared up within a reasonable period, it might appear to be somewhat vindictive?

Mr. Taggart

It is not our fault. We are not being vindictive. When we agree a package with a person, we expect him or her to be paid immediately. This is the first time I have ever heard of it taking this long to pay over the money. I cannot understand why it has not been paid over or why it is not in escrow. It is strange. It is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

Mr. Foley

First, we are waiting for the necessary tax clearance. Obviously as a semi-State body, we must have the necessary tax clearances to make the payment over to him. Second, the structure——

Mr. Taggart

That is normally very easy.

Mr. Foley

Yes, but we had to wait for him to be able to deal with those. The second issue was to determine, under the set up of the termination arrangement, exactly what were the tax deductions and what element of the package could be paid, with or without tax deducted from it——

Mr. Taggart

It is compensation for loss of office. The committee is probably aware that in practice, treatment for loss of office, for everyone, is more beneficial than just being paid.

So does that mean a decision is to be made as to whether he is getting a golden handshake or a golden——

Mr. Taggart

He has got that. As far as I am concerned, as chairman of Bord na gCon, he has got that award, of X amount of euro. We can never get that back. It is only a question of what tax will be deducted from it, judging from what Mr. Foley is saying. That money is gone. He cannot get more or less. That is agreed and signed off.

Mr. Purcell

There is much I could say but I think the Chairman will understand, in this instance, that I should say nothing because I do not want to pre-empt the conduct of the examination and ultimately, its findings. I will go against the grain and stay quiet and stay within the time limits of a typical Bord na gCon board meeting.

The committee notes the Bord na gCon accounts for 2004 and hereby disposes of them. There is no other business. Our agenda for the meeting on Tuesday, 25 July 2006 is as follows: the Comptroller and Auditor General value for money report No. 53, Department of Social and Family Affairs — rent supplements.

Mr. Taggart

I thank the Chairman and committee members. I appreciate the job the committee is doing, which is an important one. I am sorry that we fell down on our aspect of the Shelbourne Park project because it does not reflect well on us. We are more embarrassed about it than anybody would believe.

We look forward to the continuing support of both Houses for the greyhound industry, which is a very good industry. I thank the committee members for their time. Unfortunately we will not see them again but they will see somebody else.

I thank Mr. Taggart, Mr. Furlong and his officials, Mr. Foley and everybody else. All were very forthcoming in their replies. I wish Mr. Taggart well, now that he is standing down from Bord na gCon. I know he has lots of other interests that will keep him well occupied.

The committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until Tuesday, 25 July 2006 at 11.30 a.m.
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