COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2007

Minutes of the Minister for Finance.

Mr. J. Purcell (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Chairman

The first matter is the minute of the Minister for Finance on the sixth interim report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the 2002 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. The first recommendation is that a greater effort should be made by the Department and implementing agencies in the orderly administrative processing of applications to minimise the delay in the receipt of available EU moneys. The Department of Finance accepts this recommendation.

The second recommendation is that there should be greater co-ordination among Departments and between central and local sectors to facilitate the spending of available departmental moneys for much needed projects without unnecessary delay. Again, this recommendation is accepted.

The next matter concerns Vote 35 — capital grants for sports and recreational facilities — and the 2002 Irish Sports Council accounts. The recommendation is that the council should consider the development of quantitative and qualitative performance indicators to support a rational performance evaluation of the investment of State money in sport. This recommendation is accepted by the Department of Finance.

Mr. John Purcell

The council has stated both quantitative and qualitative performance indicators are in place. It accepts the committee's recommendation that there is scope for further refinement and, in line with the committee's recommendation, to develop its indicators for a stronger evaluation framework for the State's investment in sport. It recognises more must be done and is committed to doing so.

Chairman

The checklist prepared by the secretariat is on screen. Members will see the first items are closed.

The Department and the Irish Sports Council should occasionally review their administrative procedures to simplify the process for small agencies and communities in accessing available funding. However, this should not be at the expense of proper administrative and financial controls in managing State funds. Committee members were greatly concerned that extremely small amounts of money required a great deal of clerical work and entailed unnecessary bureaucracy. The recommendation is accepted.

Mr. Purcell

As the Chairman states, the most significant change concerned the national governing bodies of sport scheme, to which a more proportionate approach has been taken. The Minister assures the committee that the Irish Sports Council will continue to ensure the correct balance is struck between the need for appropriate controls which safeguard the State's investment and delivering on the Government's policy objective of better regulation. The key word is "proportionate".

Deputy Ardagh

Is that equivalent to materiality, for example, the sums involved would be €500 for some bodies and €50,000 for others?

Mr. Purcell

It is closely related to materiality but an element of risk would also have to be considered. By taking both together the key word, "proportionality", would be reached.

Chairman

The matter is closed. The next recommendation concerns the Irish Sports Council presentation on the Genesis report. It has been accepted that the Irish Sports Council should encourage bodies to which it gives financial assistance to put in place satisfactory performance criteria.

Deputy Curran

After last night's game, I smile to myself when I hear the Chairman discuss satisfactory performance criteria.

Chairman

The Deputy is staying away from soccer after last night. If there are no further comments, the matter is closed.

The next recommendation concerns the 2002 accounts of Bord na gCon. It was accepted that the board should endeavour to enter into written agreements with all bodies involved in greyhound sports in these islands to ensure a common stand on all regulations across all organisations. That was an important recommendation.

Mr. Purcell

As the Chairman stated, because greyhound racing takes place in the North and the South and Bord na gCon also funds tracks in Northern Ireland, it is important that the same criteria and regulations apply and that the sport is, de facto, regulated on an all-island basis.

Chairman

One of the main concerns is the use of drugs as stoppers or to enhance performance. The same regime is needed in the North as in the South, particularly when Bord na gCon operates tracks in both jurisdictions. I think it is an important recommendation and am glad it was accepted by the Department of Finance.

Deputy J. Higgins

Where stand the issues concerning Bord na gCon which this committee asked to be examined?

Mr. Purcell

As Deputy Higgins indicated, I undertook to examine those matters. After a very slow start, perhaps some of the uppers are now kicking in and matters are progressing more speedily. We have reached the stage at which all the relevant documentation has been examined, although documentation is not available in certain cases, and we are moving to the point of interviewing relevant people in connection with the examination.

Deputy J. Higgins

Can Mr. Purcell give any indication of a timeframe?

Mr. Purcell

It will be April at best because it can be difficult to conduct interviews or retrieve information from people who are no longer with the organisation being audited. We have to depend on a range of factors, including the extent of co-operation, although I am not saying we have not received co-operation. The examination has to fit into a certain regime, which is not always necessary when we deal with people who are still part of the organisation. As is the case in other fora, it is difficult to put timeframes on such factors.

Deputy J. Higgins

I understand the challenges. It is probably unlikely, therefore, that we will receive a report before Deputies are transformed into greyhounds and go haring around the country after anything that moves during May. The Committee of Public Accounts appointed by the next Dáil will probably have ownership of the matter.

Mr. Purcell

I would like to present the report to this committee because the concerns arose from its proceedings, but I can only offer to do my best.

Chairman

The second minute received by the committee is the minute of the Minister for Finance on the seventh interim report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the 2003 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Foreign Affairs and Defence. The Minister for Finance has examined the committee's report and has taken account of its findings. He takes the recommendations seriatim in his minute.

The first recommendation, namely, that the performance of fixed charge processing systems should be monitored by reference to efficiency indicator targets, including spoilage rates, the timeliness of the issue of notices and the enforcement of non-payments has been accepted by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in a communication with the Minister for Finance. It seems that the general thrust of the advice from the Department is that everything is fine at present but I do not think everything is fine. That is not really an issue for the Department of Finance. I believe the spoilage rates remain significant and there are a significant number of instances of persons not being issued notices but I cannot quantify the matter.

Mr. Purcell

I think the Chairman is correct. The Minister is quite careful in his statement. The response states, for example:

The Minister is advised that as a result of these developments in the computerisation of the system [which are all positive] monitoring of the operation of the FCPS will be much improved enabling efficiency indicator targets including spoilage rates, the timeliness of the issue of notices and the enforcement of non-payment to be accurately measured. He is also advised that it will be possible to take urgent action on foot of this better monitoring and to further improve performance as necessary.

Clearly, the building blocks are almost in place to enable this to happen and, as the Chairman noted, the extent of improved performance in these areas should be kept under review. The information will now be available to enable management to conduct reviews and take corrective action, as necessary.

Chairman

When this matter was previously before the committee, we learned that in some 25,000 cases involving foreign drivers, fines were not paid because the drivers were not resident in this jurisdiction. However, many of us are of the view that some of the so-called foreign drivers were people who claimed their American resident sons were driving the cars when the offences were committed. I do not think that has been addressed.

A separate issue arose in respect of whether responsibility for company vehicles rests with the company or the driver at the time of the offence. I do not think that has been resolved either.

Mr. Purcell

Both issues may require amending legislation. In the case of what are claimed to be foreign drivers, reciprocal arrangements would have to be put in place between jurisdictions, which may require a legislative base. Similarly, where companies are the registered owners of cars, the legislation may have to be tweaked.

Chairman

In so far as the Department of Finance and its Minister are concerned, they have met our recommendations but they rely on the advice they received from the line Department, namely, the Department of Transport. That is closed.

The second recommendation is that further investment in equipment should have due regard to imminent changes in technology, such as the move from analogue to digital-based equipment. The Minister assures us that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has regard for such matters.

Mr. Purcell

Again, the Minister and this committee rely on the assurances given by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the most up-to-date technology, such as digital equipment, and emerging technology will be examined. He advises that the process of updating the camera technology currently in use has commenced. The equipment used in the six speed detection vans has been replaced with up-to-date digital technology. We can accept his assurances that the most up-to-date technology for this purpose such as cameras, etc., will be considered in the future. It makes sense to do so, although it has not always been the case.

Chairman

I have concerns on that point. Members will recall that when the Garda Commissioner came before the committee last week, I asked whether the Garda Síochána had equipment that would work in the hours of darkness. The answer was that it did not and there did not seem to be any intention of acquiring more up-to-date equipment for the purpose. This recommendation was made specifically to reduce the number of fatalities and injuries on the roads. Some of the more horrific traffic accidents, particularly those involving young people speeding, happen late at night. Sometimes the proposed solutions are not focused on the key problem.

Deputy Curran

Did the Garda Commissioner not say he had acquired some cameras that could work in the dark?

Chairman

No. He said cameras were being installed in vehicles to move from place to place. I am not familiar with the technology but assume that the cameras which work in the dark are infra-red, although that may now be old technology. I would be surprised if there were not cameras which work in the hours of darkness.

Deputy Curran

To be fair to the Garda Síochána, it would argue there were means of speed detection other than cameras such as the radar gun.

Chairman

I do not think they work in the dark either. Do they?

Deputy Curran

I do not know.

Chairman

Even if they did, identifying the number plate is another issue, unless a driver is stopped.

Deputy Curran

In the traditional way a driver is flagged in after being caught by a radar gun.

Chairman

We will accept that the Department of Finance has accepted our recommendation. We will write to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to raise the issue and ascertain what is happening.

Another recommendation was that there be a single unit with overall responsibility for implementation and performance of the FCPS. The advice is that this will happen. Therefore, the matter is closed.

The report also recommended that a comprehensive scientific analysis of patterns and causes of road accidents be carried out by a single authority so as to allow for a more focused approach to enforcement. The Minister takes us over the arguments and generally accepts the recommendation but there is no commitment to take the steps to put it in place. When there is a road traffic accident in which somebody is killed, there are two inquiries — a Garda inquiry and the post mortem inquiry by the coroner. The data collected in both are confidential. In his response to our recommendation the Minister says responsibility for the issue is being given to the Road Safety Authority but I do not think the authority can access the data. It seems a reasonable approach to road safety to identify the causes of accidents in order that solutions can be more focused. Otherwise there is a serious gap in the system.

Deputy Curran

Does the Chairman refer to the Garda report or the coroner's report?

Chairman

The Garda report can be accessed.

Deputy Curran

He specifically refers to it in the last paragraph on page 3. He says Garda reports on investigations previously forwarded to the National Roads Authority are now being forwarded to the newly-established Road Safety Authority. A coroner's report may have a bearing on this but I do not know.

Chairman

As there are privacy considerations, it is not simply a matter of making a decision. However, the material could be given to the Road Safety Authority on a completely confidential basis. The recommendation was that an academic study be carried out to determine whether the causes of fatalities could be better identified, not to go after anybody, in order that that level of information could be given. I ask the clerk to the committee to make inquiries. As the Minister has met it fairly, we will close the issue but seek additional information from the Department.

The report recommended that data relating to the level of alcohol and other drugs in the systems of those killed or injured in road accidents should be available to gardaí and departmental officials. This is almost a subset of the other recommendation. The reports in question would not be coroner's reports but ones from, say, a hospital, following the carrying out of tests on a victim. Again, there are issues of privacy and confidentiality but the data would yield important information that could help prevent accidents. We do not propose that they be made public but that the appropriate agency should have access to them.

On Votes 38 and 39 relating to the Department of Foreign Affairs, the recommendation was the Department should strengthen auditing and oversight mechanisms in view of increasing expenditure, particularly in budgetary support given to certain countries.

Mr. Purcell

This emanated from a chapter in the report. Members will see there is a commitment on the part of the Department of Foreign Affairs to improve its oversight function. Staffing has been increased to this end. The Department of Finance, under a recent agreement, is working with the Department of Foreign Affairs to review its official development assistance systems and structures. It is wise to do so, particularly in view of the huge increase in overseas development assistance, which will amount to €814 million this year.

Deputy Curran

I agree fully with the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Chairman

That matter is closed.

The report recommended that the Department continue its efforts to persuade the US authorities to bring about a solution which would benefit Irish citizens seeking to become legal in the United States. According to the Minister for Finance, the recommendation accords with established Government policy. That is accepted.

On Votes 36 and 37 relating to the Department of Defence, the report recommended that the Department endeavour to update periodically the value of the defence property portfolio so as to facilitate medium and long-term asset planning. The recommendation is accepted. We have debated this issue at length and I think the reply is satisfactory.

The report proposed that consideration be given to rationalising the pension scheme rules in respect of entitlements. Persons on disability pension should not be worse off on reaching eligibility for old age pension. This relates to Army pensions and concerns the argument that the officer classes were covered by more beneficial schemes than the ranks. It meant a person could have many years of service but receive no pension credits. The minute reasonably meets the recommendation and the matter is closed.

That concludes our consideration of the minutes of the Minister for Finance on the seventh interim report for 2003.

Sitting suspended at 12.19 p.m. and resumed at 12.21 p.m.