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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2007

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Accounts 2005.

Mr. K. Coughlan (Secretary General of the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas and Clerk of the Dáil) called and examined.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Their attention and that of members is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses.

For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings, if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. They are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

Mr. Coughlan is very welcome. I ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Kieran Coughlan

My officials are Mr. Conan McKenna, assistant secretary for corporate and Members services; Mr. Derek Dignam, head of the Secretary General's office; Mr. Martin Groves, finance officer; and Ms Carmel Considine, accountant.

We do not have anybody present from the Department of Finance.

Mr. Coughlan

We are free from that perspective.

The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is independent.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

I invite Mr. Purcell to introduce the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission accounts for 2005.

Mr. Purcell

The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission came into being on 1 January 2004, in accordance with the provisions of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003. The Commission and its staff form the organisation which manages the administration of the Houses, although it has no function in the conduct of the business of both Houses.

Prior to the Commission's establishment, the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas was subject to the same conditions attaching to expenditure as Departments and Government offices. For example, the sanction of the Minister for Finance was required for significant expenditure proposals or increases in staffing. Similarly, its annual funding was allocated by way of a Vote introduced by the Minister and formed part of the annual Estimates process. All this changed with the passing of the 2003 Act which ensured the new arrangements clearly recognised the unique status and independence of the Houses vis-à-vis the Government. This was reflected in the change in the way the activities of the Houses were to be financed. Instead of the annual Estimate, a budget for the first three years was agreed with the Department of Finance. The amount in question, €295 million, was set down in the Act as the limit on expenditure for that period. In line with the legislation, moneys required by the Commission are issued directly from the Central Fund within that overall figure. Before the beginning of each year, a statement of estimated expenditure for the coming year is presented to the Dáil, where it is noted rather than voted on. When the first three-year period was coming to a close at the end of 2006, it was necessary to enact new legislation to provide for funding in the three-year period 2007-09. The amount provided was €393 million.

That is the context in which the committee is examining the 2005 account of the Commission today. The account is in a format familiar to the committee, as it is a mirror image of an appropriation account. That was the format favoured by the Commission and the Department of Finance which has statutory approval responsibility for it. Looking at the account one will see that although the estimated expenditure for the year was €106 million, actual expenditure came in at €97.4 million. The reasons for the underspend are set out on page 12 of the account. I am glad to report there are no issues arising from my audit which would merit public accountability.

I invite Mr. Coughlan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Coughlan

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to make a statement. We have come a long way since my last appearance before the committee. The biggest change has been the establishment of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission which has given the Houses financial independence through a multiannual budget drawn from the Central Fund. It has also given Members a significant input into the administration of the Houses. It is appropriate that, although the committee's examination ostensibly covers the 2005 accounts, it comes at the end of the Commission's first three-year financial cycle.

The first three years are seen to have been a success, as reflected in the recent debates in both Houses on the 2006 commission Act. When I was here last a number of years ago, we ranked among the least well resourced parliaments in Europe, whereas the Commission's most recent strategic plan for 2007 presents a future vision of a world-class parliament. This is down to the policies and decisions of the Commission, as implemented by the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas in the past three years, building on the landmark Deloitte & Touche international benchmarking and resource consultancy of 2002. The consultancy recommendations have been implemented by the Commission in a prudent manner by tailoring its recommendations to the needs of Members, identifying administrative priorities and sanctioning posts only on the basis of sound business cases. This prudent approach means the first Commission, despite having introduced much needed resource increases, has lived well within budget, delivering €13 million in savings in the first three years, representing 4% of the total budget.

Testament to the success of the first Commission, significant improvements in front-line services for Members have been delivered. These include the strand two resource package, uniquely tailored to Members' needs as a result of a significant Commission input to the design of the scheme, and the new library and research service which now has 29 staff organised into four research teams which can provide on-demand research in the fields of law, economics, social science and public administration and politics. The service is available to the committee secretariat for committee business.

A major ICT package for Members was designed and rolled out in close consultation with the Commission's ICT committee and delivered, for example, improved equipment and tailored applications for Members such as a client details database. The one-stop shop acts as a single point of contact for Members for all payments, allowances, travel and subsistence, secretarial and constituency allowances and pensions. Access to Leinster House has been improved as a result of increased opening hours, while printing facilities have been centralised under the supervision of a professional print manager to deliver service improvements and increased controls in response to a value-for-money review of the facility.

Much needed facilities improvements have been delivered such as the fitness room and crèche. Innovations in supporting and processing parliamentary business have been introduced such as an e-legislation system which includes translations, an e-Chamber pilot project and a highly effective EU scrutiny system in the committee secretariat, to name but a few. The Commission's new strategic plan to be published in two weeks builds on this success by advocating a Member-centred approach, whereby we will consult Members and act on feedback from them in the delivery of new and improved services.

Financial independence brings with it additional responsibility, requires appropriate governance arrangements and, in general, a higher level of accountability. Effective use by the Commission of sub-committees has been a notable feature. The Commission's finance committee monitors ongoing expenditure on a quarterly basis and reports to the Commission. An independent audit committee has been appointed in line with best practice. These committees, together with Commission committees in specific policy areas, for example, ICT, communications, research and allowances, have worked extremely well. By providing the opportunity for regular dialogue with, and feedback from, Members, they are a valuable resource in guiding management in the development of Member-centred services and service delivery improvements. At the same time they ensure compliance with financial controls and public service governance requirements.

The Office participates in Civil Service-wide programmes such as those on modernisation and value for money reviews. We are also accountable for our performance, as are other Departments, to the Civil Service performance verification group, CSPVG, which will decide on the award of pay increases under Towards 2016. We have developed an efficiency action programme under which we internally examine our larger business cost areas.

The behind the scenes work of the Commission and the Office is increasingly transparent by virtue of the publication of strategic plans, corporate business plans, annual reports and Commission minutes, on the parliamentary website. Commission accountability mechanisms and communications with Members generally will be kept under constant review. To illustrate how these may develop in the future, the House of Commons Commission's annual report is the subject of a debate on the floor of the Commons and the Commons commission has a spokesperson who answers parliamentary questions on a quarterly basis.

While the general election this year will present a clear challenge for our operations, a number of major strategic issues are emerging for the Commission and one of these is to improve public understanding of the role and work of the Houses and Members. The Commission engaged consultants to undertake a major communications audit of the Houses which concluded that there is a communications deficit. As part of their work, the consultants commissioned a Taylor Nelson Sofres Market Research Bureau of Ireland, TNS-MRBI, poll on public attitudes to the Houses which made some interesting findings. For example, well over half of the population does not regard the work of the Houses of the Oireachtas as very important; however, over half the population feel that Members work hard. Just over half of the population does not feel they are well informed about the work of the Oireachtas and 20% of the population can make no attempt to describe the work of the Houses.

These findings have clearly left the Commission with a great deal of work to do and, in response, the Commission has agreed a comprehensive communications strategy, aimed at improving media relations, developing education and information programmes and fostering greater support for communications within the Houses of the Oireachtas. A Commission committee has been appointed to evaluate and monitor the implementation of the communications strategy over the next two to three years.

Another area of strategic priority is information and communications technology and, in particular, the increased role and influence of technology and the Internet in service delivery and in shaping public opinion and policy. Recently a senior member of the British Cabinet referred to politicians as being in the slow lane of the information superhighway. While there are exceptions to this rule here, it is probably fair to say that not only politicians but the whole political system is playing catch-up in this area.

In recognition of the growing strategic importance of this area, and in response to the communications deficit mentioned, we have recently restructured our electronic service provision into two distinct functions. These are e-Parliament, focusing inwardly on the needs of the Houses, and e-Democracy, focussing outwardly on communications and engagement with the public. Each area is headed by a member of the senior management team.

Over the past 18 months the Commission has been working, in a client capacity, in partnership with the Office of Public Works, on the development of a long-term, 20-year vision for our parliamentary buildings. At a high level, the plan involves expanding the footprint of the precinct on the existing location and the possible construction of new chambers, in time for the 100th anniversary of the first Dáil in 2019, and will complement initiatives under the communications strategy. However, the plan is very much at the conceptual stage and will be the subject of detailed consultations with all stakeholders, such as the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of both Houses, party leaders and the Government.

The establishment of the Commission has been overwhelmingly positive for the administration of the Houses and it has secured a budget of €393 million for the next three years. Part of this will provide for the forthcoming general election which is estimated to cost in the region of €24 million to €26 million.

While the Commission has worked extremely well, there are some areas where more clarity may be required, for example, the relationship between the statutory role of the Commission and the role of the administrative House domestic committees under Standing Orders. In addition, the Commission recognises that it operates in a complex framework of discretion and accountability, and must have regard to prevailing constitutional and legal constraints in exercising its statutory powers. The Commission's budget is not the only source of Exchequer funding for parties as more than €11.5 million is disbursed annually through the party leaders' allowances and party funding under the Electoral Acts.

The Commission's guiding principle is that of parity of treatment for all members. Commission members are acutely aware that they serve in a corporate capacity and not a party representative one and have not shied away from decisions in the wider interests of all members, present and future, for example, the implementation of the value for money, VFM, report on printing.

The Commission brings its own opportunities and challenges to the culture of the office, which has been predominately focussed on operations in running the Houses since the foundation of the State and now must embrace strategic issues. Parliaments throughout the world are faced with the same need to evolve in this way and to be able to demonstrate accountability to taxpayers in how services are administered.

Much has been achieved in the Office in the near seamless transition to our new governance arrangements under the Commission without impacting on the delivery of key services to run the business of Parliament. A major challenge for our management development and training programmes is to ensure that the Office culture is appropriate to our context under the Commission. We intend to meet this challenge using a multifaceted approach through the integrated work of our senior management committee, continued prudent financial management, our modernisation agenda, in particular the use of cross-functional teams, an enhanced focus on strategic thinking, improved service delivery to Members in response to feedback on our performance and risk and project management and evaluation processes.

We must also ensure that we have the optimum organisation structure and skills base in place and that we remain flexible and responsive in order to deliver on the Commission's priorities in its new strategic plan. We will do this through a comprehensive review of our founding legislation with a view to a consolidated parliamentary services Act in the near future.

I thank Mr. Coughlan and request that we may publish his statement.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

My first comment is that, in many senses, this is a case of Members of the Oireachtas examining their own financial affairs and this is not a satisfactory situation. Mr. Coughlan said an independent audit committee has been appointed in line with best practice. Who is on that committee and what is its role?

Mr. Coughlan

The audit committee was established by the Commission on 11 March 2004 and comprises two Commission members, two persons external to the organisation, both of whom are accountants, Mr. Tom O'Higgins, the chairman, and Mr. Greg Sparks, one other member and a member of management from the Office. The role is that of a fully-fledged audit committee in line with best practice. The work the committee does can be broken down into four principal areas of responsibility: it oversees the work of the internal audit; advises us on the exercise of the responsibilities of the accountable person; examines and monitors the implementation of the risk management strategy approved by the management committee of the Oireachtas; and reviews the format of the annual accounts of the Commission and recommends my changes to the Commission for onward submission.

Members of the Oireachtas sit on this committee including Deputy John Perry and Senators Joe O'Toole and Martin Mansergh.

There is a projected budget of €393 million for the next three years, which represents a substantial 33% increase on the period from 2004 to 2006. How did this increase arise and how is it accounted for?

Mr. Coughlan

The election will account for €26.4 million and pay inflation of 22% is included which comes to €24 million. Under strands one and two of the international benchmarking review, IBR, parliamentary assistants and so on, brought in during the first three years, are now part of the existing level of services. Some 22% of the figure goes on this because they are part of the framework. The appointment of staff not appointed in the first three years will come to €7 million.

Some €6.4 million has been dedicated to translation services because of obligations imposed under the new Act. Policy provision comes to €5.5 million and the research facility accounts for €3 million. There has not yet been a 100% take up of parliamentary assistant positions and if this occurred in the new Dáil a provision of €2.5 million would cover it. Some €1 million is set aside for contingency and Members of the European Parliament election costs of €1 million are borne under our old Vote. Information and communications technology projects and depreciation come to a further €1 million. This all adds up to the extra €111 million in question.

Mr. Coughlan stated, "the general election this year will present a clear challenge for our operations", and mentioned a cost of €24 million. Will he explain this further?

Mr. Coughlan

The challenge will be to operations such as induction programmes and it is not a cost factor. We calculate the number of vacancies and the amount of termination payments. This can only be a calculation, as one cannot predict what the electorate will do. A median figure of 80 was taken. In 1997 we had 64 new Members and in 2002, 83 — 47 in the Dáil and 36 in the Seanad. Termination payments of €4.7 million are calculated for next year. A figure of €1.5 million is calculated for 2008. Also in 2008 a pension figure of €12.8 million will kick in, with a figure of €3.4 million calculated for 2009. Payments to secretarial and parliamentary assistants which will amount to a further €4 million and voluntary early retirements will bring the grand total to €26.4 million.

Does this figure include redundancy payments to Members who will lose their seats?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes, as well as those who retire.

Let us consider the involuntary retirees.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

Does Mr. Coughlan work on a certain percentage long before the general election or does he know something we do not in terms of the numbers who will not return against their will?

Mr. Coughlan

We base it on previous figures. We took the figure of 80 Members as the turnover. That is the calculation. It was 83 the last time and 64 in 1997. From our point of view, it is prudent to take a higher number.

It is an estimate.

Mr. Coughlan

As the money comes directly from the Commission, we must allow for it.

The electorate will have the final say.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. No drawdown may be made on it.

If that comment stood, many would sleep easier in their beds during the next three months.

I will move on to the library and research facility. The number of staff was increased and the new library and research service provides on-demand research in the fields of law, economics, social science and public administration and is available to the committee secretariat. Will Mr. Coughlan briefly outline this service and to whom within the Houses of the Oireachtas it is available?

Mr. Coughlan

This is one of the major improvements made by the commission. For some time it considered what would be the best model to use and went for a centralised service. It can be approached in various ways such as individual party support or the centralised model.

The service began last September and has already had a major impact. Four teams were set up; staff numbers have increased to 30 and four vacancies are held back, depending on the balance of the service. There has been a phenomenal increase in usage. The draw on the service by Members increased by 700%, compared with the period from November 2005 to January 2006, although the comparison is not exact. The breakdown of usage is Members, 60% and Members' staff, 20%. Administrative staff account for the rest.

Discussions are taking place between the committee secretariat and the library service on how the committees can best make use of it. Committees are seen as key players. However, they do not represent a major part of the demand for the service, accounting for only 1% of usage.

Apart from the extra facilities——

Mr. Coughlan

I can read out what is available, if that is what the Deputy wishes to know.

Mr. Coughlan

Facilities include the following: an on-demand information and research service; proactive research products and services; an on-line library catalogue via the Internet; the library's hard copy collections for reference and loan; electronic collections via the Internet; training and assistance with electronic information resources; training and research skills; documents laid before the Houses; and interlibrary loans and document services. An extremely proactive customer service programme is in place. The library service welcomes Members and is based on the fourth floor of Kildare House Annex. The level of use will be a good reflection of how well Parliament works and early indications are encouraging.

Mr. Coughlan mentioned initial discussions were taking place on expanding on the footprint of the precinct of the existing buildings of Leinster House and the possible construction of a new chamber. Will he explain what expanding the footprint means in terms of the physical structure? Why does anybody believe a new chamber is needed for either the Dáil or the Seanad when the existing Chambers seem to be adequate?

Mr. Coughlan

The emphasis of the existing Dáil Chamber being a debating chamber has changed. Committees have taken over a great deal of parliamentary activity. This involves the capacity of the Chamber to adapt to modernisation with ICT which will become an increasing demand in coming years. The professional view is that the Chamber is not amenable to modernisation in terms of personal computers. Also, an increase in population may mean an increase in the number of Members.

Part of the idea is that the Chamber will remain in existence for formal occasions but a smaller more workmanlike chamber with fully up-to-date, state-of-the-art ICT facilities will reflect more the trend of parliamentary proceedings. It is a major step. However, one must think ahead in strategic terms. Much attachment and historical significance are connected with the Chamber which is why these are matters for the CPP. I do not want to pre-empt what it will state. Members will hold extremely strong views on this issue which is on the agenda. I understand the need to deal with the matter one way or another.

Ministers might have teleprompters and look at us when they speak rather than have their heads stuck in scripts.

Mr. Coughlan

The Deputy could also have one. It is a balancing act.

We are discussing something that may happen a long way down the line. I am extremely doubtful about the justification for heavy expenditure on it.

Information technology is vital and perhaps is related to what Mr. Coughlan describes as a communications deficit. It is a political problem rather than a technological one. I take it information technology is accounted for by Office machinery, other office supplies and postal and telecommunication services.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

Obviously, a considerable expense has accrued.

Like many Members, I have to catch up with correspondence, including a heavy volume ofe-mails, at weekends. More weekends than not, I find I cannot access the database of the Houses of the Oireachtas from my remote location. Although we frequently direct our questions to ICT support, I acknowledge that unit is not to blame. Is the Commission aware of this problem?

Mr. Coughlan

I have been made aware of the issue. Part of the problem is a power failure which results from works carried out over recent weekends by the Office of Public Works on adjacent buildings. Our systems were not faulty but there was a cut in electricity. A number of complaints have been made in that regard and we are actively engaging with the OPW to ensure the problem does not recur.

The televising of the proceedings of the Dáil and Seanad in 2005 cost €1.79 million. Did that cost arise from cameras and control rooms?

Mr. Coughlan

That is correct. As a provider in public service broadcasting, the Joint Committee on Broadcasting has forgone fees since 2001 to promulgate the work of the Oireachtas. Charges by the operator, Windmill Lane Limited, which were €1.287 million last year, contributed to the bulk of the cost.

Despite the aspersions routinely cast on the Dáil, the take-up of footage by all media is significant. Is Mr. Coughlan saying that, because this is a public service, there is no question of levying fees on any media outlet for the material recorded in Dáil Éireann?

Mr. Coughlan

The copyright fees on the footage are waived but a charge is imposed for facilities such as cameras and outside broadcasting points. For example, 15 minutes on an outside broadcasting point costs €100.

However, the service is free to television and radio networks.

Mr. Coughlan

The fees forgone amount to approximately €250,000 per annum.

To charge the fees, the amount of footage used by every radio and television outlet would have to be calculated, which would represent an onerous and useless task. I am not suggesting that changes should be made but it should be noted that significant use is made of what transpires in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Comptroller and Auditor General indicated from an accounts point of view that everything was satisfactory. It was interesting to hear Mr. Coughlan's opening statement because, as a Member, I take the services I receive for granted. I only now realise how much falls under the remit of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.

While no specific areas of concern arise, it is important that best practice is seen to be followed throughout the Houses. Mr. Coughlan noted with regard to printing that new arrangements are in place directly as a result of a value for money report. Are similar VFM projects in place for any of the other services we purchase on a contractual basis, such as the broadcasting services to which Deputy Joe Higgins referred, and how do we evaluate their performance?

Mr. Coughlan

We have conducted two main VFM surveys, on the ICT service level agreement and on broadcasting. The report on printing was commissioned by the Oireachtas Commission and arose from the purchase of party printing machines which were inherited from the Whips. We also conduct internal VFM studies supported by efficiency audits. The VFM analysis of the Siemens contractor for ICT services was quite productive in terms of reducing the contract cost from €1.6 million to less than €1 million. The contract was reconfigured because the hourly cost for the take-up of individual calls was too high.

Did that involve an internal survey conducted by the Commission?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. We followed best practice in the sense that the old expenditure reviews are now part of the VFM network. The survey on broadcasting resulted in better pricing arrangements and contributed to a saving of 15%, or €200,000, in the new broadcasting contract.

We also introduced an internal efficiency programme because we realised when the Commission was established that there was a gap in analysing our own procedures. We made a comparison with other parliaments in the four highest spending units of the Houses, including the Debates Office, which has a large number of reporters, the translation section and the superintendent's section and have embarked on a process review to foster greater efficiency. In an environment of strong operational focus dating back 80 years, it is useful to make international comparisons.

The changes are driven from our corporate side and we have come up with some effective strategies. When applying the three E's of VFM, economy, efficiency and effectiveness, to a parliamentary environment, we see efficiency as doing the job correctly and effectiveness as doing the correct job. We have to provide a premium service which will not necessarily be used and political management is also important. In the Dáil, for example, contributions in Irish make up only 4% of speaking time but interpreters have to be on constant standby, only 4% of the 42,538 questions answered in 2006 were answered orally and 68% of amendments are not used when a Bill is guillotined. Overheads are incurred on such services, which have to be provided because it is the right of a parliament to legislate and hold the Government to account. The time will come when the political management of the Houses will have to dovetail better with the administration.

Mr. Coughlan has raised an interesting point. Is a debate taking place on the efficient operation of the Parliament in that context?

Mr. Coughlan

No, unfortunately. A weakness derives from the fact that the Whips are the business managers of the House and they do not have a long-term focus. It is probably a matter for another forum but I think Members themselves would be interested in making more efficient use of their time, especially with the increased role of backbenchers.

I acknowledge the savings which Mr. Coughlan pointed to, which indicate good practice. In his opening statement he spoke about the communications deficit, giving examples of where it arose. He also said the commission had agreed a comprehensive communications strategy. What specifically does that strategy involve? What is now being done differently?

Mr. Coughlan

It is only in its implementation phase, though the Commission has agreed on the principles. It aims to foster relations with the media. They have concerns too and we must move with the times. Good press relations are its main thrust but it also includes innovative proposals, such as having an Oireachtas week, a schools programme and education and information programmes. It is quite extensive and the first tranche of its implementation will involve the appointment of a head of communications at the equivalent of principal officer level. He or she will not be a civil servant but someone who can give the policy an initial impetus.

The projected cost is €1.2 million. There will be visitor facilities and PR assistance for committees to enhance media relations. A gap in the PR capability of committees is one of many that have been identified. The implementation is slightly behind schedule so the Commission will be anxious to sign off on it before the dissolution of this Dáil.

An e-consultation project recently took place. Did that fall under Mr. Coughlan's remit?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. That is ongoing under the joint committee dealing with the Broadcasting Bill 2006. It has been quite successful.

Has the public engaged with it?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. There have been over 73 submissions.

Is it the first time such a project has been carried out?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. It is very innovative. A special e-consultation website provides easy access and the 73 submissions contained 534 observations. The majority engage in the process by using the web facility. Webcasting of the evidence gathered for the meeting will also take place.

The discussion on this piece of legislation will be totally electronic.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. Some 12 discussion fora will also be initiated. The exercise will be reviewed by an expert group, which will report in March on its effectiveness. The exercise cost approximately €290,000, so it was quite expensive and involved an upfront payment of €150,000 for development. I hope that continues to be of use.

Can Mr. Coughlan clarify that? An amount of €290,000 for 73 observations seems a lot of money. Mr. Coughlan says the project was in the nature of a pilot scheme.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

Can much of it be repeated if the format will be used in the future?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. The evaluation exercise cost €57,000 but that will not be required in the future. Software development costing €150,000 will, I presume, continue to be used. The hardware cost €10,000 and advertising, in this case, €30,000, though that is excessive compared to the situation where a number of projects are ongoing at the same time and in which the costs can be shared. In that respect these are one-off costs.

My final question relates to legal fees paid by the commission. Can Mr. Coughlan give a breakdown of what they were?

Mr. Coughlan

In total €4 million was spent.

Is that in the year of review?

Mr. Coughlan

Much was for tribunals of inquiry, which have not all been finally paid off. I have figures for three years.

What was the total spend in the three years?

Mr. Coughlan

It was almost €4 million. Would the Deputy like me to go through them?

Mr. Coughlan

The Abbeylara inquiry cost €1.8 million. The mini-CTC inquiry cost €230,000. Costs of the Committee on Article 35.4.1 of the Constitution, relating to Judge Curtin, were just over €1 million. The Barron reports, Nos. 1-4, cost almost €500,000. The Morris tribunal cost €144,000 and others came to €297,000.

There are some interesting ones there. They involved outside legal experts engaged by various committees of the Houses.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes.

I thank Mr. Coughlan.

Mr. Coughlan

Many of the costs were for litigation. The Abbeylara case went to the Supreme Court, as did that of Judge Curtin, so the costs were not entirely internal.

I understand.

Mr. Coughlan

The case involving Judge Curtin cost €1 million but there were also court proceedings. We also incurred costs arising from the Howlin and Higgins case.

I thank Mr. Coughlan. In the normal course of events, as Secretary General of a Department, we would not have called him in today. The Vote is not qualified and no great issues arise from it. However, I thought it important, based on the principle that justice must not only be done but seen to be done. If we are to hold everybody else accountable, we should hold the Commission accountable as it affects our own professional careers. The two Deputies who asked the questions took Mr. Coughlan across a range of issues that are of concern to Members, to obtain information and pinpoint certain issues.

I will explore one issue with Mr. Coughlan. From my point of view as a Member, the Commission has improved. The lives of Members have improved, be that because of the one-stop shop or the extra facilities on offer, such as the research facilities in the Oireachtas Library. However, from the public's point of view, looking in, nothing has really changed. The public does not even know there is an Oireachtas Commission and does not even notice any difference from the time when the Houses of the Oireachtas were run effectively by the Department of Finance. That emerges from the TNS-MRBI report, in which the fact that 20% of the population have no idea whatsoever of what happens in the House is a very telling statistic.

Without asking him to reveal what is in the strategic plan which will come out in two weeks' time, has Mr. Coughlan any plans to change the public image of the Houses of the Oireachtas? For example, as the Comptroller and Auditor General remarked, the presentation of the accounts is exactly the same as that of the Department of Finance, although the Commission is now under a different regime. Did Mr. Coughlan consider presenting accounts in the manner of a private company?

Mr. Coughlan

As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, the Minister for Finance is the statutory authority to decide its format. It could be looked at in conjunction with the Department of Finance, as it has the final say on these matters. There may be a more imaginative way of presenting it. People looking in and seeing no difference is the nub of the communications strategy. We put great stock in the electronic age. This has been broken down under two senior managers in the e-Parliament and e-Democracy units. These will have an impact in the next few years, with other programmes I mentioned, taking in schools and educational and information programmes. I hope the findings from the consultants will be addressed in a more unified way. When people look at Parliament, they generally see adversarial politics. In some ways Parliament shoots itself in the foot in that regard. What has been mentioned is fundamental to the communications strategy. If half of it could be implemented in the short term, it would lead to an improvement in how Parliament and the work of its Members are regarded. It is interesting to note that the public regarded Members as being very hard-working, of which they see evidence on the ground.

When Mr. Purcell mentioned the presentation of the accounts, had he a change in mind?

Mr. Purcell

It is a commonly held view that an overhaul of the format of the appropriation accounts is probably overdue in the manner in which information is presented. There has been some tweaking of the format during the years, speaking in general about the appropriation accounts. I can understand the logic followed by the Department of Finance in going for what is a mirror image of the appropriation account format for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. I would have thought, however, that the new legislative regime provided an opportunity both for the commission and the Department which has the last word on the matter to move to a different and more modern type of account. That may still happen. It is understandable that the safe option was taken in the initial stages but there may be scope to look at the matter again. As the Chairman stated, it would be illustrative of a change in the status of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.

When we report, we can always make a recommendation.

Mr. Coughlan

We are ready to move to accrual accounting. It would probably take one year to implement but we were conscious of the Comptroller and Auditor General's own views on accrual accounting. We are capable of producing it.

I wish to tease out the communications strategy. Individual Members and political parties would either have a strong or weak impact on the public. The profile of Parliament is synonymous with that of Members. There must be a role for an institutional image of the Houses of the Oireachtas also. That would be a function of the Commission. The Houses of the Oireachtas do not have a very strong institutional or corporate image. Will Mr. Coughlan tease out the communications strategy with us? We have a very effective press officer who helps us quite a bit when the committee launches reports, but are other staff dedicated to communications work?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. We will have more when the communications strategy is up and running and the implementation plan is made out. The first three years were spent trying to bed in the Commission in terms of infrastructure, etc. We will be more conscious in the next three years from a branding point of view and people will be more conscious of the Commission itself. Even internally, people will have a better of idea of where they work. People here a long time, such as myself, are conscious of the institution, but Members and political parties tend to have a shorter term view. A fundamental part of the communications strategy is to improve the image of the institution. This breaks down into strands, with the media being more Member-centred and the information and educational aspect being a very imaginative programme involved with schools, etc. A visitor centre would replicate best practice in other parliaments where there are drop-in visitor centres. This would be like the European Commission office on Molesworth Street. Information sources would be available on-screen and be user-friendly. One of the central points of the communications strategy is to build on the institutional view mentioned by the Chairman.

Mr. Coughlan, in replying to Deputy Higgins, indicated that he saw relationships with members of the media appointed to the Press Gallery, etc., as part of the Commission's communications strategy. How will that work?

Mr. Coughlan

It will be essentially through better networking and more open provision of information. The commission, as I stated, is much more transparent now. The minutes are placed on the website. This has led to much media reaction on occasion. It is an improvement to have this better briefing rather than have stories being written in a vacuum. We are more open in how we approach the media and when this is done generally, a more rounded story is produced.

Is the Commission responsible for the accreditation of journalists working in the Houses of the Oireachtas?

Mr. Coughlan

Strictly speaking, the Press Gallery comes under the wing of the Ceann Comhairle, but it is somewhat self-regulated, as it has its own board.

Does the Commission engage with RTE, for example, to have "Oireachtas Report" put on at a more user-friendly time on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays?

Mr. Coughlan

The broadcasting committee tends to swing the cudgel on that issue but we have pressed it at every opportunity. The issue of facilities was raised by RTE recently and we also used that opportunity. Everybody realises a person would have to be an insomniac to see the programme.

I am not sure if there is a solution to the problem of the image of Parliament. In every democracy there is always tension between the executive and the Parliament. With a strong whipping system, the executive has about 95% of the action, with the Parliament left with the remaining 5%. In other jurisdictions the Parliament is stronger and the executive, weaker. The stronger the parliamentary process and the looser the whipping system, the more effective Parliament can be. If the committees were stronger in terms of the resources on which they could draw, it might tilt the balance somewhat in the direction of the Parliament. Will Mr. Coughlan describe his thinking behind centralising research facilities in the Oireachtas Library rather than providing committees such as this with its own research officers?

Mr. Coughlan

I am aware of the committee's report compiled last year on the 11 researchers. The view was taken that a high level centralised facility would deliver the best service, although it would depend on the level of demand. If the committees create a demand, clearly there could be dedicated committee facilities. The case would sell itself in that sense. At this point the Commission took the view that one would have a better delivery from a centralised service and that there would be more frequent use on a 12-month basis. The centralised facility will be very responsive to committees. In this first quarter they are working out the modalities for committees. There would be dedicated facilities if the demand is there. The Commission would be very open and the policy suits the present circumstances. Committees would inevitably feel more comfortable with their own researchers but it is a question of establishing demand in business terms. I presume that if committees generate sufficient activity the level of demand will, in itself, make the relevant case. Nothing is cast in stone and the commission will be responsive to demand.

The work in the new research facilities attached to the Oireachtas Library has been generated by individual Members so far; the committees generate very little.

Mr. Coughlan

The committees could generate such work easily, if they so wished.

Are there plans for underground parking?

Mr. Coughlan

Yes, that was part of the 20 year plan of the Office of Public Works and a suggested public private partnership seeking to make such a project financially viable came up at the commission. The OPW is currently seeking suitable investors. The original idea was for an underground car park with 500 spaces, most of which could be used by the public at weekends, though this could raise security concerns. At the moment it is a question of finding the right level of investment because the State would not pay for the entire project.

Would it be under Leinster Lawn?

Mr. Coughlan

That is correct and that is why the lawn has not yet been restored — it would be foolhardy to dig it up repeatedly. There was a greater sense of urgency about creating the car park at that point that has since waned.

Is a PPP being considered?

Mr. Coughlan

The Office of Public Works was considering such a move.

How far has this progressed? Is it just a concept?

Mr. Coughlan

The OPW has entered negotiations with various interested parties seeking to make it an attractive private investment but I understand the matter has not progressed as quickly as one might have thought.

Not only is there pressure on Members, there are days when it is hard to find parking on either side of the House. I have arrived on the Kildare Street side, while bells are ringing for votes, and been unable to park because every spot is taken. On such occasions, on the instructions of the people at the gates, I have had to go around to the Merrion Square side and still try to make it in time for the vote. This is less than satisfactory.

We have all had delegations coming to visit and frequently they are late because they cannot get parking in the vicinity. This is a significant issue, however it is to be resolved. In advance of the new Dáil chamber discussed with Deputy Joe Higgins, the provision of adequate car parking facilities should be addressed.

This is a matter that affects members of the media and staff. Very few secretarial staff have car parking facilities and most must park outside the House, yet on fairly modest salaries they cannot afford parking charges in private garages.

Mr. Coughlan

Plans for the car park are not tied to the projects set to be completed by 2019 and will be dealt with at a far earlier stage. It is intended that the matter will be dealt with in the coming years.

Mr. Coughlan mentioned that the election will take up 24% of the budget for this year.

Mr. Coughlan

The election will take between €24 million and €26 million of the budget.

What is involved in these costs? Do returning officers and so on account for them?

Mr. Coughlan

No, they relate only to termination payments and pensions for former Members.

The running costs of the election are a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Mr. Coughlan

They are not our responsibility, we deal only with the returns.

I take it the Library does not draft speeches for Members.

Mr. Coughlan

It does not go that far.

It provides input for the draft.

Mr. Coughlan

Exactly.

Does it draft Private Members' Bills or amendments or is this function still vested in the Bills Office?

Mr. Coughlan

It is an informal function of the Bills Office.

Very informal.

Mr. Coughlan

Exactly. I always felt there was a need for a drafting service here.

Many a good idea from Members has been stopped by the fact that they do not have technical drafting skills. It would be helpful if Members could go to the Library with a well worked out concept, indicating the problem and how it could be dealt with, seeking it drafted.

Mr. Coughlan

This is something that could be considered.

Mr. Coughlan gave a breakdown to Deputy Curran of €4 million in legal costs. Have there been personal injury or public liability claims?

Mr. Coughlan

No, not in recent years.

No Deputies or Senators throwing themselves down flights of stairs.

Mr. Coughlan

Not just yet, they are waiting.

I am still stunned at the commission's prediction of a 50% casualty rate in the general election. In a conventional war that would be considered devastating.

Mr. Coughlan

The predicted level is actually 30% across the two Houses, which is not as bad.

That is not even counting those who will emerge badly bruised from the encounter.

I suggest that a good quality bus corridor from Mulhuddart and other points in the city would be a better investment than an underground car park.

The matter of communication is a political question and it is impossible for the commission to burnish what is quite dull. One need only enter the Dáil on a Thursday morning and try to raise an issue of major importance that arose overnight or that morning to see how far one gets. This is a question of Standing Orders which are entirely in the hands of the politicians who control the majority in Dáil Éireann. As the Cathaoirleach indicated, it is determined, to a large extent, by what comes out of the Dáil in terms of contribution and quality. As long as Deputies, regardless of political disposition, look at their feet while mumbling scripts prepared by someone else, proceedings will not be riveting for the public. I agree that communication is important but the raw material needs to be improved quite a bit.

Mr. Purcell

I have no further comment to make.

May we note the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission accounts 2005? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The agenda for our next meeting on Thursday, 15 February 2007 is as follows: 2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 1 — President's Establishment, Vote 6 — Office of the Minister for Finance, Vote 7 — superannuation and retired allowances, and Vote 12 — Secret Service; chapter 1.1 — financial outturn, contingency fund deposit account and finance accounts 2005.

The committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 15 February 2007.
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