COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 2007

2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Mr. J. Purcell (An tArd Reachtaire cuntas agus ciste) called and examined.

Chairman

We have to deal with a disposal motion. I propose that we dispose of the following Votes from the 2005 accounts which the committee did not note in the last session: Vote 2 — Department of the Taoiseach; Vote 3 — Office of the Attorney General; Vote 4 — Central Statistics Office; Vote 5 — Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote 11 — State Laboratory; Vote 13 — Office of the State Solicitor; Vote 14 — Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions; Vote 15 — Valuation Office; Vote 16 — Public Appointments Service; Vote 17 — Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments; Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman; Vote 22 — the Courts Service; Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds; Vote 24 — Charitable Donations and Bequests; Vote 33 — National Gallery; Vote 34 — Enterprise, Trade and Employment; Vote 35 — Arts, Sport and Tourism; Vote 36 — Department of Defence; Vote 37 — Army Pensions.

Is it agreed we note these Votes? Agreed.

Mr. John Purcell

These were Votes that were not considered by the previous committee because it did not feel there was any need to do so and because nothing of a critical nature arose in them. It seems perfectly in order to note them in the fashion suggested.

Chairman

In addition, I propose we dispose of the following chapters from the 2005 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which the committee did not dispose of in the last session: with regard to the Prison Service, Chapter 4.1 — Acquisition of Site for Prison Development; and with regard to the National Treasury Management Agency, Chapter 15.1 — National Debt, and Chapter 15. 2 — Savings Bank Fund. Is it agreed that these chapters now be disposed of?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Why are we doing this?

Chairman

The report was agreed last week. We did not get around to finalising Chapter 4.1 — Acquisition of Site for Prison Development — before the Dáil rose in April last. We are formally disposing of Chapters 15.1 and 15.2 having passed the report last week.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Does that mean we never discussed on the floor of the committee what was done in 2005 in regard to those three matters?

Chairman

I am advised that Chapter 4.1 — Acquisition of Site for Prison Development — was discussed but the other two were not.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

On a related matter, although I realise I am taking matters back a little, when did we decide the order of the work programme? How was it decided that we would first deal with health, then revenue and so on? How was the work divided given that some areas seem to be given more importance than others?

Chairman

We discussed the work programme last week and at the second last meeting.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

How did we decide the priority of certain Departments and decide to give lesser priority to other areas?

Chairman

Members can come forward with suggestions.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I remember that but—

Chairman

We signalled at the second last meeting we would have a draft programme to present to members. We presented that draft programme and members agreed it.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We agreed the first two issues last week. I am trying to figure out who suggested that we would deal with those other issues in the following three weeks. I want to understand the decision-making framework.

Chairman

In private session a number of weeks ago, I spoke with the secretariat and we presented a proposal for a number of weeks. The members then present agreed that draft programme. Then, due to a rejigging of arrangements caused by unfortunate circumstances, we had to reschedule some of the programme which we put forward in draft form in private session ten minutes ago. We formally agreed that draft programme up to 7 February.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I understand what we have just done, but out of curiosity, who suggested this draft programme? That is what I am asking. Did you do it as Chairman, or was it the clerk or the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Chairman

I did it as Chairman in conjunction with the clerk, and it was only a proposed draft programme.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I appreciate that.

Chairman

Members were empowered to change anything they wished. We now have a draft programme up to 14 February and it is open for proposals and suggestions from that date onwards. It will be on the agenda for the next meeting.

Deputy John Curran

The programme will be part of our ordinary business in the sense that we will get through every Government Department. This is just the first of them for the first few weeks. The only difference is a recognition from the clerk's viewpoint that we could not do the bigger Departments, such as the Department of Health and Children and the Revenue Commissioners, in one day. There is nothing additional at this point.

Chairman

The Deputy is right. It was obvious to me that one of the biggest spending Departments was the Department of Health and Children, as well as being one of the most controversial for a number of reasons.

Deputy John Curran

Traditionally, the Department of Health and Children Estimate was never concluded in one meeting.

Chairman

We put forward the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive for discussion today. However, due to unfortunate circumstances we must defer that meeting. Next week we are examining the Office of the Revenue Commissioners which will take two sessions — on 13 December and the first meeting in the new year. We will have the Department of Transport and the integrated ticketing scheme and other relevant chapters on 31 January. It is now scheduled to have the Health Service Executive and the Department of Health and Children in for the first meeting in February.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It would have been useful if we had an overview of the 2006 accounts with the Comptroller and Auditor General's views on areas that might require further investigation through teasing them out with officials. On the spending side, we could have the Department of Social and Family Affairs also. I was here for all the sittings and I recall the sessions with the Department of Health and Children and the Revenue Commissioners. I just wondered about the process.

Chairman

The Deputy is aware that we had a meeting in private session and we had almost an open forum with the Comptroller and Auditor General. He gave us an overview of the workings of his area and we suggested areas we would examine. The proposed draft programme evolved from that almost two-hour discussion with the Comptroller and Auditor General. It was put before members and was agreed by them. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we have had to rejig today's schedule. Members now have before them an extended draft programme up to early February, which was agreed in private session just 20 minutes ago. The proposed draft programme evolved from the discussions we had in private, when we received a thorough briefing, for new members especially, on the workings of the committee, the workings of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and some of the relevant areas we felt we should examine. Our priority, however, was to examine the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2006 report, which is what we are starting with now. We are now dealing with the disposal of the outstanding chapters, which were read out. Is that agreed?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

On a point of clarification, the questions concern the procedures to be followed. The question was who decided that we should take matters in this order. Whose suggestion was that?

Chairman

The draft programme was put to members in private session and was agreed by them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I know, we were here, but that is not my question. I am asking who suggested that these were the priority areas we should take over the next three or four meetings?

Chairman

I do not understand.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What Deputy Broughan had suggested was that it might have been a good idea for the comptroller to give us an overview of the 2006 accounts, drawing our attention to the areas he believes are important. Are these the areas he believes are important or, are these the areas the Chairman believes are important?

Chairman

These are the areas the committee believes are important because we agreed them earlier.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

On whose recommendation?

Chairman

It was not a recommendation. All we put forward was a draft programme for consideration by the members for a short number of weeks to get the committee rolling. We put that forward and it was agreed.

Deputy John Curran

While these have been agreed the problem for some people is that it is a draft programme. Virtually all the Departments in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report will be dealt with in this committee. This just happens to be the first of them. The Department of Social and Family Affairs and all other Departments will come before the committee. We have three selected for the moment, and there are logistical issues for the clerk to organise with the relevant staff and the Departments. While only a couple have been listed, we will get through every Department. That is the normal procedure.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

I presume any member can read the 2006 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and if he or she considers there is any issue it can be brought to the Chairman's attention and we can agree to include it in the programme.

Chairman

That is correct. Nobody did so. All I would say—

Deputy Deirdre Clune

It is still open to members.

Chairman

—is that it is still open to members. There is a blank sheet of paper from 14 February onwards.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

So there is a lot of flexibility.

Chairman

If any member believes he or she has a priority concern we will work on it. I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to say a few words.

Mr. John Purcell

I do not assign any priority to any of the matters in the report. As far as I am concerned they are all matters which require public accountability. That is the reason I would have put them in my report in the first place. There is no implied priority.

As Deputy Curran said, all of the matters in the report will be dealt with before the summer recess. I hope all of the outstanding value for money reports that have to be examined by the committee will be examined and I have no doubt they will. It has been a combination of unfortunate circumstances that the committee has not got off the ground in a public sense. It would have happened today but these are things that are just unfortunate, as the Chairman said.

Chairman

Is it agreed that the chapters I have read out be disposed of? Agreed.

No. 7 on the agenda is any other business. As the committee is aware we were to have the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive with us today. Unfortunately, due to the recent passing of Professor Drumm's mother we were forced to defer the examination of these Votes to a later date. Members have before them the agreed date of 7 February 2008. On behalf of the committee I offer our sincere condolences to Professor Drumm and his family on their loss.

Are there any other matters that members wish to raise?

Can we agree the agenda for the meeting of Thursday, 13 December 2007, as follows: 2006 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 9 — Office of the Revenue Commissioners; Chapter 3.1 — Revenue Account; Chapter 3.2 — Tax Written Off; Chapter 3.3 — Outstanding Taxes and PRSI; Chapter 3.4 — Revenue Audit Programme; Chapter 3.5 — Prosecutions; and Chapter 3.6 — Special Investigations. We welcome any proposals for the February sittings. We will have a second session with the Revenue Commissioners on 17 January 2008. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 13 December 2007.