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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 2 Oct 2008

FÁS Annual Report and Financial Statements 2007.

Mr. Rody Molloy (Director General, FÁS) called and examined.

I welcome our visitors. We are considering Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on general matters arising on audits of non-commercial State sponsored bodies, as well as the FÁS annual report and financial statements of 2007.

I make witnesses aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; to produce or send documents to the committee; to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative; to make a written and oral submission; to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee.

Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Having said that I welcome Mr. Rody Molloy, director general of FÁS, and I ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I thank the Chairman. With me are Mr. Christy Cooney, assistant director general, HR and organisation development, Mr. Donal Sands, assistant director, general finance and IT and Mr. Patrick Kivlehan, director of internal audit function.

We also have officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I ask them to introduce themselves.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I am head of the labour force development division in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I am accompanied by Mr. Niall Monks who is an assistant principal in that division.

At this stage I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce chapter 2, Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on general matters arising on audits of non-commercial State sponsored bodies, and the FÁS annual report and financial statements of 2007.

Mr. John Buckley

FÁS was set up in 1988 to provide services for the unemployed. In 2000 it got responsibility for training people with disability as well as a transfer of staff from the former National Rehabilitation Board. In 2004 the local enterprise service network, which was formerly under the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment was brought under the umbrella of FÁS. Historically it supplied services to the unemployed, but its focus in recent years has been moving increasingly to upskilling people in employment. It has an independent board that reports to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It spent just over €1 billion in 2007 and the accounts detail the programmes under which the bulk of the money was spent.

Turning to the special report, one of the matters dealt with in that report, which was published in May 2008, relates to the procurement engaged in by the corporate services division of FÁS. An audit on the function, which was carried out by the agency's own internal audit service, brought to light some concerns. These were in regard to procurement by the division. In one incidence a company seemed to be in situ and carrying out work in advance of completion of the tendering and contract award procedures. The work involved the review of the science challenge programme. The same company was subsequently awarded the contract some two weeks after it had begun submitting invoices for work and the value of the contract in this case was €30,000 plus VAT.

Another contract was awarded by the corporate affairs division for €53,000 plus VAT. This was despite the fact that a procurement process for the work was still in train in the agency's procurement division. The work involved organising an employers conference associated with the FÁS Opportunities 2003 exhibition. The contractor was not one of the parties that submitted tenders and it is unclear whether the procurement round was finalised in this instance.

Turning to payments, when payment was being claimed for advertising services, percentages were added on to the bills of subcontractors. Incorrect invoicing related to this cost approximately €160,000. In another incidence terms of payments were agreed in arrears. This involved incentive payments being provided for after the FÁS Opportunities 2005 exhibition had been run. This cost €27,000.

Overall in these incidences there was concern that work was being allocated in advance of completion of the contracting arrangements and that the payment terms for work was being determined in arrears. The internal audit report also raised concerns about the cost of a contract associated with the running of the FÁS Opportunities 2003 exhibition, which cost twice as much as was paid for the same services in years either before or after that exhibition. The service provided by the contractor was the selling of space at the exhibition and the outlay by FÁS on this service was €250,000.

It was also found that a website developed in 2000 for an internationally focused Jobs Ireland campaign substantially duplicated the functions of FÁS's existing databases. This cost €1.7 million. The campaign itself was abandoned in 2001 and limited value was achieved from this investment. Ineffective expenditure was incurred because the agency had entered into service contracts which extended over 36 months, but the campaign did not last that long.

When it came to the establishment and operation of specific advertising and related contracts, the corporate affairs division often bypassed the appointed advertising agency and dealt directly with newspapers, magazines and design consultants. Not using the appointed agency to manage these services meant that full value was not obtained for the amount paid to them.

Overall, the matters raised in the internal audit reports suggest there is a risk that the integrity of the procurement process was undermined in the case of the corporate affairs division's purchasing and that value for money was not achieved from the money spent. The CEO will be in a position to update the committee on any developments since the report was published.

I thank Mr. Buckley. I invite Mr. Molloy to make his statement.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to meet with you to discuss Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General and also the FÁS Annual Report and Financial Statements for last year.

Report No. 10, insofar as it dealt with FÁS, was a comment on an investigation prepared by the internal audit section of FÁS. The report was fair in that it outlined the findings of our internal audit section investigation and the management response. The report spelled out my response to the recommendations in the internal audit report and I can confirm to the committee that we took the recommendations in the report seriously and that we have put in place revised procedures and controls to ensure that there is no recurrence of the breaches outlined in the report. I should add that all our internal audit investigations are forwarded on completion to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Unfortunately the publication of Report No. 10 unleashed a frenzy of interest in the activity of our internal audit section whereby we had to release some 20 internal audit reports, a few directly to journalists and 19 to the Fine Gael spokesman on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Leo Varadkar.

I would like to make some general comments on the role of internal audit. Internal audit is a vital component of the governance of any organisation. By its nature it looks critically at the processes in an organisation. Internal audit reports, whether in the public or private sectors, are written, both in style and language, for an internal audience and not for general public consumption. As a consequence the language used can, at times, be robust. This is as it should be for the proper governance of any organisation. In this regard FÁS internal audit reports are no different from others. Unfortunately the internal reports released by us under the Freedom of Information Act have been sensationalised by the media and used by some with a destructive agenda towards FÁS.

It is important for the efficacy of the audit function that those who are charged with preparing the audit reports can continue to exercise their function without fear that anything written will be used by persons outside the organisation with a negative agenda. Otherwise the operation of internal audit could be undermined, not just in FÁS, but throughout the public service.

There is not an organisation, company, bank or institution that does not have critical comments from their internal audits sections. That is the function of internal audit. If these reports were released into the public domain they could be damaging to the organisation. All our internal audit reports are referred immediately on completion to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Like any organisation in the public or private sector, FÁS is not a perfect organisation. The vast majority of FÁS staff are decent hard working people doing their best to serve our clients any way we can. We have systems in place, which I believe are as good as those of any organisation, to identify weaknesses and to rectify them.

I welcome the fact that the Comptroller and Auditor General is going to look at our internal processes. I can assure the committee that any proposals that come from the Comptroller and Auditor General to improve our processes or procedures will be fully implemented. Our internal audit function is as vigorous as it should be in an organisation with an annual budget of €1 billion performing an important function in the economy. It is a tough watchdog. It bites from time to time but that is precisely what we want it to do. I would be more concerned if our internal audit did not identify weaknesses in our systems.

The importance of an agency working to train and upskill individuals and enterprise in general is particularly obvious at this time of economic uncertainty where unemployment is rising again. I would hope that today's meeting and the Comptroller and Auditor General's involvement will end the constant stream of negative commentary on FÁS. As the committee may know I already spoke and answered questions on this issue before the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Employment in July, so in this opening statement I will seek to keep repetition to a minimum.

I wish to outline the circumstances surrounding our internal audit report which led to the references to FÁS in Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. In late September 2004, the office of the then Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, received an anonymous letter which made various allegations of a criminal nature. This letter was ultimately passed to me. I then directed our internal auditors to conduct an investigation into these allegations and to submit a report. In doing so, I had the following priorities: I needed a full investigation of the allegations; I had to ensure these allegations were investigated in a timely manner; and I had to ensure that no individual was deprived of his or her right to natural justice.

The audit I ordered was very extensive, covering the period from 2000 to 2004, and it began in November 2004. Due to the seriousness of the allegations, the investigation was conducted by the head of internal audit and an audit manager, who initially investigated the list of allegations of criminal behaviour made in the anonymous letter. The audit found no evidence to substantiate any of those criminal allegations.

However, in the process of investigation, the auditors found possible breaches of procedure which warranted further investigation, so we asked the auditors to conduct that investigation. In June 2005, during the course of the audit, we passed certain information to the Garda for investigation which is still ongoing. The audit was completed in December 2005 and a draft report was issued to the assistant director general, corporate services, and me in January 2006. As a result of a legal issue raised by the assistant director general, FÁS was advised that individuals named in the report, both internally and externally, should be given an opportunity to comment on sections relevant to them. This process of consultation lasted until May 2006 and a final report was then issued.

In dealing with these allegations and deciding whether disciplinary action was warranted, we were conscious of the need to afford due process to the individual at the centre of the matter and to proceed in a legally correct manner. We underwent a number of internal procedures to ensure the matter was handled correctly. If we had not followed the correct procedure, we might have faced legal challenges. Following the receipt of legal and audit advice and after observing the usual internal procedures of presenting the report to the appropriate people, the final report was issued to the Comptroller and Auditor General in February 2007.

At that time, I directed the human resources director to conduct a disciplinary investigation into matters arising from the audit report. This investigation began in February 2007 and was completed in June 2007. Disciplinary action was taken against the individual involved. In accordance with normal practice, we cannot divulge the details of the disciplinary action.

The internal audit report deals with issues pertaining to the relationship between FÁS and various outside contractors. Once we became aware of the issues, we began to change management procedures around the operation of the procurement process within the organisation. We have implemented most of the recommendations of the internal audit report and those which we have not implemented are under active consideration. This has involved various management changes. All the units of the organisation have been instructed to follow best procurement procedures at all times and new financial controls have been developed.

In summary, FÁS management instigated an internal investigation as soon as these allegations were brought to our attention. We passed information to the Garda as it became available to us. We took disciplinary action against the individual at the centre of the issue and none of the contractors covered in this report currently has a contractual relationship with FÁS.

We have many internal audit reports, and these have given us valuable recommendations on how to improve how we operate. No doubt these internal audit reports, or indeed the internal audit reports of any large private or public sector organisation, could provide news stories for many months to come. To publish the internal reports of any organisation in this way would be to give a distorted impression of reality. It would also disrupt the smooth operation of companies and agencies who would have to divert substantial senior management resources to explaining the meaning and context of a whole series of matters.

There has been some comment recently suggesting that there is something odd about the fact that FÁS spends considerable sums on marketing services including media, public relations and advertising services. This is to fundamentally misunderstand what it is that this organisation does. All of our services can only succeed if they are promoted and marketed effectively and it is right that we have a substantial spend in this area.

As FÁS prepares for one of the most challenging periods for many years, I have heard commentators making comments such as: "Nobody knows what FÁS spends its €1 billion budget on". Let me enlighten these people. In 2007 we spent €216 million on training for employment. During that year just over 50,000 people who had reached three months on the live register were referred to us. By the end of the year 63% had left the live register. In addition, 20,300 people who were unemployed or seeking jobs underwent training programmes. This included 1,790 early school leavers who completed training in community training centres, 2,792 people from disadvantaged backgrounds who completed local training initiative programmes and 1,503 people with disabilities who received specialist training provider vocational training.

Another major aspect of our work was community employment. We spent €358 million on community employment schemes last year, the majority of which was accounted for by participants' wages. There were 24,500 participants on such employment programmes at the end of 2007, including 2,200 people with disabilities. We spent €129 million on the apprenticeship system, a core element of our strategy of equipping people with skills relevant to the labour market. A total of 17,919 people completed the three off-the-job phases of apprenticeship during 2007.

In addition to helping train the unemployed and apprentices, we also assist existing employees to upskill. The major element of employee training in 2007 was the competency development programme which trained more than 45,000 people. In addition, more than 2,000 employees with low skills participated in the workplace basic education programme. We initiated training programmes aimed specifically at small and medium enterprise management development and also developed in conjunction with strategic partners initiatives targeting persons with low skills or low qualifications.

Last year we also provided a major job matching service through our employment services and our website. A total of 142,000 vacancies were notified to us and about half of those were filled by candidates referred by FÁS.

We held two major careers fairs during the year — the annual Opportunities Exhibition in Croke Park where nearly 130 organisations exhibited, and the FÁS Jobs Ireland Munster Careers Exhibition in Cork.

To meet the growing demand for skilled workers in the pharmaceuticals sector, last year we opened a new centre of excellence training facility at Carrigaline, County Cork. That will provide practical skills training to process operators-technicians in the bio-pharmaceutical and pharmaceutical sector.

That is a brief outline of our activities and where our budget goes. Overheads comprised a very small proportion of our budget — just 4.6%. Fifty six per cent of our expenditure, or nearly €600 million, was for training allowances and payments to FÁS participants. A substantial proportion of that money is, in effect, a substitute for social welfare payments.

All of this information is available in our annual report and therefore I do not understand the commentary from some who said recently they do not know where our budget goes. What I do understand is that some of those who claim not to know where our budget goes have another agenda, which is to say there is no need for FÁS in the first place. Rather than hide behind the baseless claim that they do not know how we spend our budget, they should come out and clearly make their real case.

I am happy to debate the need for FÁS and for any of its individual programmes. Virtually all our programmes have been evaluated at one time or another by the European Union, Departments, the Economic and Social Research Institute, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and various consultants and all have come to largely positive conclusions.

As FÁS looks to play its role in dealing with the difficult economic circumstances, I hope we now can be allowed to do that. Our internal audit systems will continue to work to improve what we do. We have 2,200 employees who are all doing a good job throughout this country, often in difficult circumstances. I look forward to a full discussion of our report and accounts, and to a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General in due course.

Can we publish the report?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

I thank Mr. Molloy. Before I ask call our first questioner, our Vice Chairman, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, a number of issues arise from Mr. Molloy's statement. I do not want to do him any disservice but I detect a sense of paranoia on his part. The members who will ask questions have no agendas other than to protect the taxpayer, and we will attempt to do that in a fair way. I do not know to whom Mr. Molloy is referring when he mentions people who have a destructive agenda towards FÁS. I am not aware of anyone who has that. We are all here to serve the public and even in these difficult times, and taking into consideration the headlines this morning, there is a need for greater effectiveness in FÁS, and I know Mr. Molloy will address those challenges. We have to look back at what has happened and deal with some of those issues.

Arising from Mr. Molloy's statement this morning and his statement in June to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and before I ask a question arising from that, he referred to reports being a frenzy of activity by the media and internal audits. The internal audits were passed on to the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Buckley, and it was Mr. Buckley who, in his report on 8 May, was the first person to put into the public domain some of the contents of the internal audits, and he had every right to do so. To my knowledge it was only after that that the freedom of information request was made by people in the media and an individual whom Mr. Molloy named in his opening statement. If Mr. Molloy believes what I am saying is incorrect, I am open to contradiction but——

Mr. Rody Molloy

Chairman, can I make it clear that I was not referring to anyone on this committee or any public representative. I was talking about media commentators who have been making these comments in recent times, and one in particular, whom I will not name. I have no problem with the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. I said in my statement that it was a fair comment on an internal audit report. My problem is that, subsequently, the full internal audit report had to be released under the freedom of information legislation and it was selectively used against us. Subsequently, a number of our other internal audit reports received similar treatment. It was not a comment on the operation of this committee but it is a problem we have in the public at the moment.

My reading of the situation, and my information is factual, is that the media interest and interest from individuals only came about because of the excellent work done by the Comptroller and Auditor General's office in publishing his report on 8 May which arose, as Mr. Molloy said in his opening statement, from FÁS's internal audit reports. Is that not correct?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Absolutely, and we have no problem with that. If the media comment had been confined to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, it would have been a fair expression of the system, but it went beyond that.

We have a freedom of information law in this country and people are legitimately entitled to seek information from an organisation that is spending more than €1 billion of taxpayers' money. That should not be resented. The word "unfortunately" is used on a number of occasions and it is unfortunate that type of attitude prevails. Having said that——

There has been a consistent viewpoint among a certain ideological quarter in the past 20 years that FÁS should not exist. I recall that point being made strongly, especially from the early 1990s to the mid-1990s.

We will not——

For example, Senator Shane Ross——

Deputy, could I just——

——does not agree with having such an organisation or with labour market supports.

That is his opinion. Let us continue——

That is a reality of Irish political discourse in the past decade or 15 years.

I will give the Deputy an opportunity——

That is the reality.

In his opening statement Mr. Molloy said he ordered an extensive investigation in the process of which the auditors found possible breaches of procedure. In his evidence to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment meeting on 2 July Mr. Molloy stated: "However, in the process of investigation, the auditors found possible breaches of procedure which warranted further investigation, so we asked the auditors to conduct that investigation". However, in a letter dated 6 February 2007 to the head of the audit committee Mr. Molloy made it clear that senior management had no knowledge of the extended investigation and sharply criticised the internal auditors. Does Mr. Molloy believe the internal auditors did FÁS a disservice investigating issues raised in investigation 137? He seems to have sharply criticised them in the letter he sent to Mr. Niall Saul on 6 February 2007. There appears to be a contradiction in that Mr. Molloy ordered the investigation yet in the attachment to his letter he said he had no knowledge of the investigations.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am working from recollection but my letter to the chairman of the audit committee was as part of a management response to the report where I had some concerns about the way the report was being presented, which was a mixture of what I regarded as two separate issues, first, the criminal investigations around the criminal allegations originally made and, second, the procedural issues that arose from that investigation. I had had discussions with the chairman of the audit committee at the time purely in a presentational sense because I had made it clear in that letter that I did not question any findings of fact in the report.

My other criticism, from recollection of the report, was the use of loose language such as "it appears" or "it seems" or whatever rather than definitive conclusions one way or the other.

The only other issue I raised of which I can think offhand was that concerning splitting reports so that we would have a report clearing people of the criminal allegations and a second report dealing with the procedural issues. I ordered the report and I talked to the head of the internal audit after his initial findings. I questioned the way those involved pursued some aspects of that report in that they visited senior people in companies with which we had relations without informing us in advance that they were going to do that. In particular, the letter I mentioned refers to a visit to senior people in the Independent Newspaper group. That visit caused those in that group considerable upset because they were not forewarned of it. It is to that I was referring. I was not criticising the findings of the investigation but the presentation of them and some of the approaches to people outside the organisation without forewarning us of those approaches.

Mr. Molloy's memory is slightly defective on this matter. I refer him to a document dated 6 February 2007 which clearly states that senior management had no knowledge of the investigations by the internal audit. Perhaps Mr. Molloy would refer to his letter to Mr. Niall Saul. That document also can be made available to members of the committee.

Mr. Rody Molloy

All these actions took place in a context. The letter was a final closedown. It was sent at the end of a long process of interaction between me, the internal audit committee and the head of internal audit at the time. I am quite clear, in whatever way it is referred to here, that I had no issue with the investigation being continued but that I had a number of issues as to how it was being continued and the amount of time it was taking, which I also made very clear because there was an issue of natural justice involved. People were under suspicion and we needed to have it done more quickly than it was being done. In respect of some of the approaches made outside the organisation, I felt that at least we should have been afforded the knowledge that this was happening. That would be normal practice in any organisation. I never at any time — I made this clear in my letter to Mr. Saul — challenged any of the findings in the report.

I do not know the documents being discussed.

I will arrange for the documents to be circulated to the Deputy.

How were they made available?

Under a freedom of information request.

It would be helpful if the rest of us had those documents.

It did not come to the secretariat.

We need to have copies of those.

I will circulate them.

I thank Mr. Molloy for his robust presentation. I do not want to go back over media comment that has been made. We are all used to it as politicians. We have thick necks too, so I would not let it get to him too much. It is unfortunate, given much of the good work done by FÁS which Mr. Molloy outlined clearly in his statement, namely, the thousands of people who use its employment, retaining and reskilling services, which have been important in assisting the economy to get to the stage it is at and, in difficult economic times, ensuring the agency moves along with providing for the needs of the economy such as the opening of the centre in Carrigaline for pharmaceutical training which Mr. Molloy mentioned.

Some comments were made in isolation of the rest of the facts. I record that any of my questions are in no way, shape or form a criticism of FÁS as an employment and retraining agency, but we have a responsibility, as the Chairman mentioned, to ensure taxpayers get value for money. Furthermore and most importantly, in the areas where mistakes and breaches have been made, we have a responsibility to be satisfied, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, that the recommendations made not only have been taken on board but have been initiated and change effected within the organisation to ensure we will not be here in a year's time discussing the same issues with regard to procurement.

I wish to deal with a number of matters related to procurement policy. The Comptroller and Auditor General briefly dealt with a few examples mentioned in the report where, effectively, the awarding of a contract was made before the procurement and tender process were done and payments were made. Two or three examples are mentioned in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. How extensive are such procurement problems or the failure of people to follow the tendering procedures in force? How many instances of breaches of procurement rules did the internal auditors find during the period under discussion in the report?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The problem we have had has been in our public affairs department. We have had very few problems around procurement in the organisation. However, as in any organisation, especially one with a staff of 2,200, people will breach procedures from time to time. The important point is that we have processes in place to capture those breaches, particularly if they are serious, and to put new procedures in place to ensure there is not a recurrence.

I do not deny there were breaches of procedure in our public affairs department. The function of our internal audit was to identify those breaches of procedure. Where there were clear breaches, we have to hold up our hands and say that while there were breaches, we have put new procedures in place. We put those in place in our public affairs department during the course of and following completion of that audit to ensure there were no further breaches.

I understand that no organisation, be it private or public, is 100% perfect. I am trying to get a handle on the approximate number of instances of such breaches. Two or three are mentioned in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Without going back historically, can Mr. Molloy indicate if there were any identified breaches in 2007, for argument's sake? Have lessons been learnt from the mistakes of the past?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot think of any breaches other than those outlined by our public affairs department. We have a strong procurement section in-house. Part of the problem was that those in the public affairs department went around the procurement section. Following this and other internal audit reports, we went through a whole process last year of re-informing people of their obligations under the procurement procedures and we had sessions with managers, etc., spelling out the importance of following procedures.

In regard to the procedural change, Mr. Molloy mentioned in his opening statement that he had put in place many of the recommendations in the internal audit report, but others are under consideration. Which ones are under consideration? What recommendations were made in the internal audit that Mr. Molloy has not yet put in place?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There was to be an external review of our media spend. It is not in place yet because we tried last year to institute such an investigation but we could not get an expression of interest from the market for people to undertake the job and so we have restructured it. In the past month or so we have gone to the market again seeking an expression of interest for someone to undertake this work. I understand there is some interest in it this time round and we hope to be in a position to launch that in the fairly near future.

Is that the only recommendation that has not been put in place?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is an issue——

If any of Mr. Molloy's colleagues wish to intervene, there is no difficulty in their doing so.

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is another issue around timesheets and getting material back from the advertising agency, on which we are working but which has not yet been finalised.

Is it Mr. Molloy's intention to implement all the recommendations in the internal audit report?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It is in my interest and that of the organisation to be able to give assurances here and anywhere else that our systems stack up and that they are as perfect as they can be. The Deputy referred initially to media comments and politicians being used to the cut and thrust of them. I assure him I am fairly thick-skinned about media comments. However, the problem is that we have 2,000 people in the front line, working very hard, and a continuous stream of negative media comments affects their morale and how they do their jobs. That is my concern.

In relation to the acceptance of the recommendations, I listed three or four that were not accepted. Unfortunately, they are contained in that letter which is currently being printed. It is a letter from Mr. Molloy to Mr. Saul. I noted that Mr. Molloy did not accept fully the recommendation relating to the review of the relationship between FÁS and the advertising agent and the procurement procedures in that area. Mr. Molloy rejected the recommendation to split the corporate affairs department and to remove its procurement function to a central location. He also rejected the need for an independent evaluation of FÁS Opportunities and made no comment whatever on the recommendation relating to the review of the tendering process for advertising and related services.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I can deal with each of those individually but I was answering questions on issues highlighted in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. I was not aware this document was on the agenda. I was told that only the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was on the agenda. This document was released by us under freedom of information to a colleague of the Chairman's.

It is in the public domain.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was released to a colleague of the Chairman's and bits of it were selectively quoted in the public domain. I was not aware that this document was going to be examined in the detail in which it is being examined this morning.

It is relevant.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am not saying it is not relevant but in fairness, if I had known this document was going to be gone through line by line, I could have been prepared for that.

It is not being gone through line by line. I am highlighting what I believe are inconsistencies arising from that document and Mr. Molloy's opening statement.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not accept there are inconsistencies. Taking issue with recommendations is normal practice in any organisation. One does not necessarily accept 100% all the recommendations from one's internal audit if there are good reasons not to do so. Where I have taken issue with the recommendations in our internal audit report, which was a far more detailed report, I have spelled out reasons for doing so.

I am only quoting what Mr. Molloy said at the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment in July. He said: "We have implemented most of the recommendations of the internal audit report and those which we have not implemented are under active consideration." I have just itemised the ones which have been rejected by Mr. Molloy and the ones which were not referred to in his letter of February 2007.

Mr. Rody Molloy

None of them was rejected out of hand. What we said in regard to some of them was that there were issues for us around how we would proceed with them.

We will let members decide.

We are dealing with the implementation of the recommendations. I want to get back to procurement because there is no question in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that, in certain instances, moneys have been lost or at least badly spent. In regard to procurement, what controls are in place now? I am trying to get at the levels of authorisation. Who can award and pay a contract? Unlike what has been shown in the report before, I hope the same person cannot deal with the process all the way through. Perhaps Mr. Molloy could give members a little comfort that those controls are in place.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have put extra staff into the public affairs department with financial experience and a clear understanding of procurement procedures to ensure that everything is properly accounted for in that department. We have very detailed codes of performance or whatever for individual staff members in regard to who has authority to sign off on particular sums of money all the way to the board. They are enforced through our procurement section which is a separate one within the organisation.

As I said earlier, we actually went to the trouble of going to all our staff around the country to remind them of their responsibilities under the procurement procedures and of the authority limits, etc., in those procedures because of the issues thrown up in the report. We will continue to use internal audit to check aspects of that as time goes on. Even if I get everything perfect in procurement today, some spillage will have taken place in 12 months' time, so I will need internal audit to check those things again.

That is a given. I suppose I am talking about the broader financial controls in the organisation. We can leave procurement aside. What autonomy do senior executives in FÁS have? To be fair, this is not specific to FÁS. A number of State agencies have appeared before the committee in recent months and while there were checks and balances in place in terms of authorisation, payments were made above those levels. What level of payment must go to senior management to sanction?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is a long list. Up to certain amounts can be paid. This is in line with the normal practices in Departments and State agencies. Anything more than €500,000 must come to me. Anything up to €500,000 can be approved by an assistant director general. Anything up to €250,000 can be approved by a director. Anything up to €150,000 can be approved by a manager or financial accounting in head office or finance and administration managers in the regions. It goes all the way down.

Is Mr. Molloy satisfied with those levels of controls?

Mr. Rody Molloy

They are standard controls throughout the public sector. In some cases, they are even more stringent than they need to be. As I said, we have put extra people into the area where we have had difficulties and any substantial expenditure in that area must be approved by an assistant director general, even if it is within the authority of an individual. In terms of the authority people have to spend, one must bear in mind that there is an onus on them to go to public tender.

This is not specific to FÁS. If one looks at a couple of the examples, such as the Jobs Ireland website, FÁS internal auditors found that there was an overspend of approximately €1 million. There was also a question whether the Jobs Ireland website was even required. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong. On the financial side, there was an overspend of €1 million. That is a substantial waste of public money. How can we ensure that does not happen again? Could the €250,000 contract awarded for the jobs fair still be awarded at local level?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No.

Will Mr. Molloy expand on that?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We specifically set up a group in-house to clear all expenditure on to FÁS Opportunities and other major events such as that in order that one individual will not be able to make a decision on expenditure in that area.

I refer to the expenditure on that website, although it was before my time. I understand the decision of management at the time was that it would have been putting too much pressure on the information technology section, given its workload, to put that website in place and that it was needed quickly. At the time, the organisation was under substantial pressure to deliver employees to many major companies which had located in Ireland, partly on the basis that skilled personnel would be available to meet their needs. Pressure was put on us to try to find some of those skilled people overseas. It sounds strange in the current climate to have to go overseas to get skilled people but that is what we had to do.

On the issue of the €1 million, people in internal audit took a broad view that €1 million was of the order of things. In any event, it is very difficult to determine how much, or whatever——

I appreciate——

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was an issue of concern to me when I came into the organisation, or shortly after, that there were two websites which, it could be argued, were doing similar activity. I ordered the closedown of the external website and ordered the people who had engaged in the contract on that to get us out of it.

Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can answer the following question. When there are issues of overexpenditure, such as the advertising contract, the Jobs Ireland website and the other examples mentioned, would they have been flagged to the Department of Finance or the parent Department? At what stage were the Departments informed? Was it simply on foot of the anonymous letter that the process started?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

Aspects like that, such as spending overruns or spending ahead of budget in lines of an agency's budget would be dealt with in the normal course by the agency itself over the course of a year. In any particular year there might be underspends on some things and overspends on others.

Of course the Department monitors the drawdown by the agency of funds over a period of time, but it would not come to the attention of the Department of Finance unless there was a need for something over and above what the allocation had been for the year in the Revised Estimates volume.

Was the Department informed by FÁS of the breach of official procedures and the loss of taxpayers' money?

Mr. Rody Molloy

In answer to that, first, both the Department of Finance and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are represented on the board of FÁS. The internal audit committee, in the normal course, reports back to the board of FÁS on any breaches that occur. It does so on a regular basis. With regard to the issue in this report, we informed the Department fairly quickly of the outcome because we were aware of the sensitive nature of the issues raised in the report.

To return to Deputy O'Brien's questions on approval procedures, we have our book of authorities on who can do what and where. I quoted from it to give a sense of the substantial amount of regulation and process we have in place around procurement.

In that regard, is the board of FÁS now satisfied that the breaches identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and in the internal audit report will not happen again? Can Mr. Molloy give the committee an assurance?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I can never give a guarantee, nor can anybody else, that nothing will ever happen again.

I am not asking for a guarantee. I am asking is Mr. Molloy satisfied.

Mr. Rody Molloy

What I can say is that I am satisfied that everybody in the organisation who does any purchasing is aware of these procedures and that we have a process in place where no one person makes a decision on his or her own and that there is a second sign-off.

Are they always implemented?

Mr. Rody Molloy

They were not in the past, which was our problem. As I say, we have processes in place now which we hope will ensure that they are. The chairman of internal audit came back to the board and reported that he was happy that we had put procedures in place to ensure that there would not be a recurrence.

Is the book to which Mr. Molloy refers totally in line with the 2006 Department of Finance guidelines?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Absolutely.

But Mr. Molloy, in the famous letter I circulated, wrote that the rigid application of contractual arrangements and public service procurement practices would not be appropriate in all circumstances in which the corporate affairs department has to work. How does that line up what you have said here?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It does, Chairman. That is a statement of fact. If we must do something quickly it is not possible to go through a tendering procedure at all times to do so. That is recognised in the Department of Finance 2006 document. The Department recognises that there are times when issues will arise where going to public procurement would not be possible to do the job that we are being asked to do. We have a process in place specifically in regard to public affairs, which is the area where this is most likely to happen, so that nobody can do that without coming to a very high level in the organisation.

Can the director general give us examples?

Mr. Rody Molloy

For example, as my colleague, Mr. Donal Sands, informs me, if there was storm damage somewhere on a roof and we had to get it immediately repaired, the notion of going to public tender and waiting three months is not feasible.

The website was not like a storm-damaged roof.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Nobody said it was. I have accepted that the issues raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report were ones that should not have happened in the organisation, but I am also saying that it was our own internal audit people who uncovered those issues and that it was in response to those that we have moved to address the breaches that took place.

Returning to the value for money issues, it seems that the advertising agency overcharged FÁS to the tune of €160,000, as identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Has FÁS sought the return of those moneys?

Mr. Rody Molloy

On any issue that identified where we were potentially overcharged, we have sought a refund.

Have you had any success?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No success. My statement mentioned having referred issues to the Garda. In a couple of instances, they are some of the issues that we have referred to the Garda authorities to see if they can establish that we were being defrauded by any of our contractors.

Specifically, at what stage are we on this €160,000 in errors or overcharging on the invoice? Have we sought the return of it? Has FÁS issued proceedings?

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

Currently, the €160,000 is an issue with the Garda authorities. It is the issue that was passed to them. There were two elements of their investigation, one of which the Garda has not been able to pursue because of lack of evidence. The Garda is continuing to work on the second issue, which is about additional mark-ups on invoices, and it is still its intention to continue with that investigation.

How does FÁS check, as and from today? Overcharging has been identified where payments have been made out. If an invoice is received for a substantial amount — I do not refer to one for stationery — how is that checked within FÁS to ensure that such occurrences do not happen again?

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

I shall deal with that in reverse. A normal reconciliation on any kind of supplier invoice to a supplier statement should show if there are any overcharges. The issue that was handed to the Garda was concerned with timesheets being manipulated, additional hours being put on and then invoices coming in with a higher number of hours than were actually worked on by the agency's staff. There is another level to that one. One will not find it on the contents of the invoice unless one can get back to the timesheets within the agency, and the Garda is looking at that matter.

The Garda is looking into it and FÁS is actively trying to get the return of those moneys.

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

When a criminal case is ongoing we must await its result.

My final question relates to bonuses. This is not specific to FÁS. The reason I raise this is because we have raised it at previous meetings with other agencies. With other State agencies there seems to have been a sense that performance-related bonuses are simply paid. I am not saying that is the case with FÁS.

What procedure has FÁS in place and what benchmarks does it uses to pay bonuses to staff, including senior management, and at what levels? Perhaps Mr. Molloy could explain the FÁS procedures for that. The committee has raised the matter with other agencies and we are most unhappy with how bonuses are paid. I want to ensure that FÁS is not in that boat.

Mr. Rody Molloy

First, my bonus has received some publicity recently.

I was not referring specifically to that, but Mr. Molloy may want to use it as an example.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It is the same process. I do not have any problem doing so.

Mr. Rody Molloy

At the beginning of every year I agree with the board a set of targets and outcomes expected for the year, both in terms of normal and excess to normal. A board sub-committee goes through my performance at the end of the year and determines what level of bonus I get. It does not automatically pay me the full bonus, unfortunately. I wish they did. It has paid me substantial bonuses, but not the maximum. In my seven or eight years in the organisation I got the maximum in one year.

I was not referring specifically about Mr. Molloy.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I understand that.

Bonuses can be a substantial part of the remuneration. Is the process Mr. Molloy explained the same one used for any member of staff?

Mr. Rody Molloy

For my assistant directors general, for example, I have an allocation of the staff budget that I can allocate to bonuses. I go through a process with each of the assistant directors general where they, as part of their business plan, spell out their priorities for the year and agree them with me in advance. If they achieve them they get the bonus but not if they do not.

Are records kept for each?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is a record kept each year. I go through a detailed process of filling out precise details that I agree in advance and then we come back at the end of the year and go through what they have achieved or not achieved.

How is a bonus sanctioned? I refer to levels of authority here, more to the middle management level or the staff level. How is it sanctioned and how does it get to payroll and get paid?

Mr. Rody Molloy

In terms of the assistant directors general, when I agree the figures I inform the assistant director general who is head of human resources and he arranges for payment through the finance section.

Do all bonuses sanctioned go to the director general?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

Before I call Deputy Shortall, I want to comment. We are looking at procurement practices and I find it strange that the Department of Finance representatives, who are here every week, are missing. I wonder why they are not present. It is essential that they should be here. They appear to be absent and I am not happy about that.

Is there always a Department of Finance representative on the audit committee?

Mr. Rody Molloy

During my time with the organisation there has always been a Department of Finance representative on our internal audit committee.

I welcome our guests and I thank Mr. Molloy for his presentation. The only point I would make with regard to the presentation is that the business before the committee is Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the FÁS Annual Report and Financial Statements 2007. It would have been preferable if Mr. Molloy had confined his remarks to matters relating to these documents. What people say outside of this room is not really a matter for the committee to deal with now. It would have been best if the issues in question had remained outside. If there is criticism of FÁS, our guests will be in a position to defend themselves at this meeting. However, they should not get in their defence before any attacks are made here.

I seek clarification on the period covered by Special Report No. 10. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that the period covered was 2002 to 2005. However, Mr. Molloy stated that the period in question was 2000 to 2004. Will he clarify the position?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was the period from 2000 to 2004. However, the process relating to the drafting of the report and the interaction and consultation which took place between ourselves and the internal audit committee took place during 2005. The events investigated occurred between 2000 and 2004. The investigation commenced in November 2004 and, essentially, took in everything from 2000 up to that date.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that the period was 2002 to 2005.

Mr. John Buckley

I agree that the report refers to the period 2002 to 2005. That is the period we covered.

So we are not discussing exactly the same period. Since 2000, how many internal audits have been carried out and what percentage of these identified inappropriate practices or procedures?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Something of the order of 40 to 50 internal audit reports are compiled each year. The nature of internal audit is that each of these would have highlighted issues relating to particular practices or whatever. The process that is employed provides management with an opportunity. In 99% of cases there is an acceptance by management that either the processes in place were adequate or, if not, that they would be improved. Lest people misunderstand the position, in respect of virtually all of our reports there has been no loss to the organisation. Most of the reports centre on the processes in use and the risk that losses might be accrued if procedures were not tightened up.

Is Mr. Molloy stating that since 2000, approximately 280 internal audit reports have been compiled?

Mr. Rody Molloy

At a rate of 40 to 50 a year, that would be the case.

Is Mr. Molloy in a position to indicate the number of such reports that identified serious problems with procedures and practices?

Mr. Rody Molloy

A small number would have highlighted serious problems. The report we are discussing today was the major one relating to the period in question.

Yes, but what does Mr. Molloy mean by a small number?

Mr. Molloy

I recall three or four in respect of which we were obliged to take precise action against individuals. I refer here to someone involved with a community employment scheme who did not account properly for money or to instances where money went missing. We had to suspend or dismiss people as a result of such occurrences.

When inappropriate practices are discovered within an organisation, it is not the fact that they have occurred that is important but rather it is the manner in which they are dealt with. Will Mr. Molloy outline the procedures used to handle internal audits? Reference is made to a number of different entities, namely, the head of internal audit, the audit committee, the director of audit and the board. What procedure is used to deal with internal audit reports?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have an internal audit sub-committee which is comprised of three members of the board. Our head of internal audit and director of internal audit is the same person. We have an internal audit section——

The head of internal audit is also the director of internal audit.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes. It is merely the case that there are two different job titles. He heads up an internal audit section which has a staff complement of something of the order of five or six and which works directly with the internal audit committee. The latter meets four to five times per year and agrees a programme of work. In the normal course of events, the committee examines various aspects of the organisation's expenditure and decides which of these are to be investigated by the internal audit section. Other organisations use similar procedures. In addition, if we become aware, through other means, of any particular activity that gives rise to concern, we would specifically ask the internal audit section to carry out an investigation.

When the internal audit section completes an investigation, it reports to the internal audit committee. There is also an iterative process between the internal audit section and the management in the area under examination. The purpose of this is to ensure that, for want of a better way to describe it, there is fair play. I apologise if the particular issue to which I referred earlier upset members. From my point of view, however, this is an opportunity to place information on record that would counter what is being said outside. I accept Deputy Shortall's comment to the effect that I should not perhaps have done so.

I would not say that we are upset, but the remarks were inappropriate.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The internal audit committee, when it receives a report, will determine whether the management response is adequate. The chairman of the committee will then report to the full board on the number of internal audit reports with which it has dealt in the preceding period.

He reports to the full board.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

Mr. Kivlehan is head or director of internal audit.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

Did he deal with the report in question?

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

When the report was finalised, I would have dealt with some issues arising from it such as, for example, dealing with the Garda. I was not in place when the report was being completed.

So Mr. Kivlehan took it over when it was at an advanced stage.

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

Yes.

Where is the person who initiated the investigation?

Mr. Rody Molloy

He retired in 2004. The head of internal audit who commenced the investigation in 2004 retired halfway through the process and was replaced by another individual who has subsequently been moved to another area within the organisation. Mr. Kivlehan then took over the function.

It is not very satisfactory to have three different people dealing with one internal audit.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Again, part of the difficulty with this report is that it took so long to complete. Internal audit reports are normally completed much more quickly.

Why did the second person involved in the investigation not see it through to the end?

Mr. Rody Molloy

That person saw it through virtually to the end. Mr. Kivlehan was appointed following the publication of the report, which had already been forwarded to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The report had actually been completed. Mr. Kivlehan has been involved since——

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

May last year. I was dealing with issues such as liaising with the Garda.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Essentially, Mr. Kivlehan has been dealing with the fallout from the report.

I accept that it is difficult when one comes late to dealing with something. Is the second person involved, who dealt with most of the investigation, still with FÁS?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The person who dealt with most of the investigation retired. We replaced him with an individual who worked through the initial drafts through to the final conclusion of the report.

Did the Comptroller and Auditor General meet the three people involved with the production of this report?

Mr. John Buckley

No. I just met the head of internal audit.

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General referring to the current head of internal audit?

Mr. John Buckley

Yes.

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

Our manager of IT audit, who conducted most of the basic investigation work, is still in place. There is continuity in the context of the department such that someone who was involved at the start of the investigation and saw it through to its completion is still there.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Our officials meet the Comptroller and Auditor General formally at least once a year. Officials from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office are with us during the early months of the year as part of the normal audit process.

On the handling of this matter by the board, I am taken aback by the letter that was circulated. It would have been of assistance if it had been supplied during the past couple of days in order that members might have had an opportunity to examine it properly. I am particularly concerned about point 22.

I apologise for it not being circulated sooner, but it was something that I came across in my personal research.

From a brief reading, the tone seems critical of the approach taken by the internal auditor, there seems to be an attempt to limit the scope of the investigation and there is frequent questioning of the need to carry out a thorough investigation. This is unusual to say the least.

Looking at the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and today's presentation, I feel we are only getting part of the picture. To what extent could the Comptroller and Auditor General get a full picture? I presume there are other documents and written responses from the audit committee, the director of audit and the board. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General been given access to all the documentation associated with the audit and the response of the different sections within the organisation?

Mr. John Buckley

My understanding is that we dealt with the final report and that we did not go back beyond that. This is part of the reason it has been mooted there should be a more in-depth investigation and examination.

In the Comptroller and Auditor General's audits year on year, for example from 2001 to 2005, did the office not see all the documents, statements and invoices, etc.? Did it not, as normal auditors would do, trawl through whatever it wanted in-house?

Mr. John Buckley

That is a separate question. As part of the audit we would test a sample of invoices and did so each year. Procurement featured in every audit we did and in some instances we dealt with issues arising by way of management letter. Management letters would have been issued in 2001, 2002 and so on and there would have been internal audit follow-ups as a result. There would have been normal activity arising from our audit, but most of it would have been procedural, for example, issues around the number of quotes obtained or the number of tenders.

What happened in this case goes much deeper. It involved a forensic investigation by the internal audit of an issue which dealt with relationships and similar issues. It went deeper than the normal audit would go.

The point is that the issues identified in the special report came to light purely by chance because of the letter and allegations made to the Minister. What review has FÁS conducted to discover why these issues were not identified in its regular audits?

Mr. Rody Molloy

First, when we submit an audited report to the Comptroller and Auditor General, all the correspondence around that audit is also submitted. We have nothing to hide in this regard. As we became aware of the issues in question, we began to change the management processes in the area, even before the final report was completed. We have had a complete overhaul of our procurement processes——

That is not what I asked. I asked why these issues did not come to light in the course of the normal audit.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot answer that. They did not come to light because they did not. When they did and we got the hint of them, we acted.

Mr. Molloy was very resentful of the manner in which the internal audit was conducted. In the famous letter and the attachment, Mr. Molloy spoke about the lack of clear terms of reference. For example, the anonymous allegations were investigated, then other allegations arose, these were investigated and then other allegations arose. He said: "The investigation was extended without the courtesy of advising senior management." I interpret that as a reprimand of the internal auditors for not advising senior management who had initiated the original investigation. Then Mr. Molloy went further and complained about the interviewing of external people without his consent or knowledge or that of senior management. In my view there is a reprimand inherent in paragraph 22.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I never made any secret of the fact I had concerns about the way this audit was conducted. That is why I had discussions with the internal audit committee and the head of internal audit at the time. However, I never at any time interfered with the findings of the report and wish to make that clear. I did have concerns and voiced those concerns.

As I said in my opening statement, as well as ensuring I had a full investigation of this process, I also had a responsibility to individual staff members and to their rights to natural justice. If allegations were being made about them, I had to ensure their rights were protected or I could find myself in the courts.

The issue is not the individual allegations made; it is that Mr. Molloy seemed to be trying to restrict the scope of the audit.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Let me explain. When we started this investigation and were told the nature of the allegations that were being made, we were advised legally that in starting the investigation, the internal audit people should spell out the nature of the allegations to the people about whom the allegations were made. That was done. The issue subsequently was that when that part of the investigation was done and some procedural issues were discovered, they went off investigating those issues without going through the same procedure and coming back to the people being investigated to inform them they had uncovered these issues and were now investigating them.

As I understand it, when serious allegations are made against individuals in an organisation, it is normal practice to inform those individuals of the nature of the allegations and give them an opportunity, in natural justice, to defend themselves.

At the meeting of the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment on 2 July 2008, Mr. Molloy said in reference to the initial investigation: "However, in the process of investigation, the auditors found possible breaches of procedure which warranted further investigation, so we asked the auditors to conduct that investigation." Having said that to the committee, on 6 February 2007, Mr. Molloy said to Mr. Saul that he had no knowledge at all of it.

Mr. Rody Molloy

What I said I had no knowledge of was how they went about going outside of the organisation and——

No, you said: "The investigation was extended without the courtesy of advising senior management."

Mr. Rody Molloy

What I was talking about there was that the investigation had started. Then I spoke to the head of the internal audit at the time — I recall the specific occasion — and told him he should have gone to the individual against whom the allegations were made, in the same way as he had done at the start of the investigation, before going down that road. I also told him to continue with the investigation and to carry out that part of the process.

Surely that call should be made by the auditors. They should decide at what point they will approach the person involved. Mr. Molloy says in point 22, which the Chairman cited, the anonymous allegations were investigated, then other allegations arose and were investigated and then other allegations arose, etc. Is it not correct that the head of audit was doing his job properly?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is another issue impinging on this, namely, the time it was taking. There were serious allegations concerning an individual. Every time a set of allegations was presented and no proof could be found, the investigators went down another road. All I was saying was that was unfair on the individual. It is unfair to be under investigation for a prolonged period without being given the opportunity to respond. All I was trying to do was to balance the need for a full internal audit investigation with the need to protect the rights of an individual within the organisation.

We knew from the start, when we got the anonymous letter, that the issue had the potential to become what it has become. I took legal advice and audit advice and even advice from a senior external private sector auditor on how to proceed. It was a very difficult process for us in-house.

What does Mr. Molloy mean by saying he knew it had the potential to become what it has become?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am referring to the nature of the allegations, which were serious criminal allegations made against the individual. Because of that, I took legal advice.

An extremely serious malpractice has been identified. Why was Mr. Molloy seeking to limit the scope of the audit?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was not. I made it clear in the covering letter that I was not limiting the scope of the audit. When I wrote this letter, the audit was already complete. All we were talking about at that stage was how the audit was to be presented and I raised issues about the way in which the audit had been conducted. It was not going to change the outcome of that audit because it was complete at that stage.

I would have thought that the director general of a major organisation would welcome a thorough investigation and certainly Mr. Molloy is not welcoming it in this document.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It is unfortunate that a document like this can be taken in isolation without the interaction that went on between the audit committee, myself and internal audit. This was just a formal closing of the event in terms of me informing the audit committee of my concerns. These were genuine concerns. It did not inhibit the investigation which was complete at this stage.

It is clear from what has emerged so far that there is a need for a review of all of that documentation and the committee will be considering that.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I have no difficulty with that.

Mr. Molloy, the reason this document came up was as a result of your own words at the meeting of the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment and your own words this morning where you repeated what you said there. You described it as "a robust investigation". In your letter of 6 February 2007, you did not describe it as robust but rather that objectivity and solid evidence should be the hallmark of an investigation report and that there should be no room for words such as, "appears", "believes", "it seemed" and "probably". Any fair-minded person reading that would say there was an attempt by you to rubbish to the chairman of the board the audit committee and the contents of the internal audit report.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about two different issues here. I never objected to a robust investigation——

But you described it as such.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was a robust investigation but the final report produced contained a lot of phrases like "it appears" and "it seems" in it.

Why did you describe it this morning as "robust"?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The investigation was robust. What I was questioning was the language used in describing the outcome of it, which I presume I am entitled to do.

I have a few more questions. Where do things stand now regarding the person at the centre of this, the director of corporate affairs?

Mr. Rody Molloy

As I said in my opening statement, subsequent to that report, the individual in question was subject to a disciplinary inquiry by our then head of human relations. He recommended a form of disciplinary action to me which I accepted and which was enforced. I would say now that the disciplinary action I imposed is very minor compared to what the man suffered following on from the comments when our full report was released.

We will not go into that.

Mr. Rody Molloy

He is currently on sick leave from the organisation.

I do not understand why the director general is saying he cannot disclose what disciplinary action has been taken. I would like if he could tell us more about that as I think the committee is entitled to know. Does that person continue to be employed by FÁS and what is his job title?

Mr. Rody Molloy

He continues to be employed by FÁS but he is out on sick leave. He does not currently have a job title because it is clear it would be inappropriate for him to come back into public affairs when, and if, he returns to the organisation. He does not have a job title.

He was there until June 2008.

Mr. Rody Molloy

He was there until June 2008 when this furore about——

Mr. Molloy should not refer to it as a furore; it was the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report was not the issue. After the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report we had——

I ask Mr. Molloy to just tell us the facts rather than giving us a commentary and his own views on them. We are asking for the facts. How long did he remain in employment?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Until June 2008.

And he went on sick leave at that time?

Mr. Rody Molloy

He went on sick leave when the full report on which the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was based was released to the media.

Was he director of corporate affairs up to June 2008?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

Is he still in that position?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No.

Has a new person been appointed as director of corporate affairs?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I have appointed a new person to that job.

With regard to AFA O'Meara, the organisation's advertising company, where do things stand now, in view of the fact that the internal audit report estimated the direct financial loss to the organisation arising from incorrect invoicing and overcharging was €160,000?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have no relationship with AFA O'Meara or with any other media company.

Since when has FÁS ceased using it?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not know exactly when we ceased using it but it would be within the past two years.

How many Garda investigations are under way at the moment in respect of people currently or previously employed in FÁS?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Two.

What do those investigations entail?

Mr. Rody Molloy

One of those investigations is dealing with issues raised in this report and there are two parts to it.

Will the director general explain the two parts?

Mr. Rody Molloy

One is to do with one particular contractor on posters and the other is to do with the issue we spoke about earlier, the €160,000 and the alleged overcharging from the advertising company.

Are they the two parts?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have initiated another investigation where we uncovered what appeared to us to be fraudulentsubmission of invoices. The internal audit on this has not been completed but because of what looked to us like a serious case to be answered we brought the Garda Síochána in on this one also and this is currently under way.

Is an individual being investigated?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes. The Deputy will understand that I cannot go into details.

That also relates to invoicing. This is an issue I raised at the start with regard to invoicing procedures in FÁS. We had a problem with AFA O'Meara and €160,000. I appreciate the director general cannot go into details, but is this another invoicing problem?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It is fundamentally different. There appears to be the submission of false invoices. Normal procedures were followed but the invoices were false.

Is it the case they did not relate to goods or a service?

Mr. Rody Molloy

This is what is being investigated. The invoices were falsely pertaining to be from a company and this is why we called in the Garda Síochána immediately.

How was this matter uncovered?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was uncovered because an individual from an external company feared its name may have been used and we were asked to check it and we found some of the invoices received were questionable. This led to a trawl of all our invoices to see had this individual been submitting other invoices.

Again it is something that came to the organisation's attention by chance rather than through its own internal control.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

The Comptroller and Auditor General signs off on the annual reports of the organisation. I note that in 2007 he stated: "I planned and performed my audit so as to obtain all the information and explanations that I considered necessary in order to provide me with sufficient evidence to give reasonable assurance that the financial statements are free from material misstatement, whether caused by fraud or other irregularity or error." I presume similar statements would be contained in the auditor's report going back to 2000, throughout the period of these events. Why was this not brought to the attention of the committee sooner by the Comptroller and Auditor General? Is it necessary for the Comptroller and Auditor General to review the auditing practices and standards it applies to State agencies?

Mr. John Buckley

We use the same standards as the private sector. We audit in accordance with international auditing standards. We set a materiality level on the financial audit and this is a monetary sum. Even if these figures had been found in the course of audit, they would not have breached that materiality and therefore we would have given a clear certification in any case.

My office follows up on matters that do not breach materiality levels but are material by context or nature, such as this, by way of reporting outputs. This report in front of the committee is the result of that kind of work.

We have a two-pronged approach in the semi-State and central government areas, a reporting type operation and a certification operation. The latter mirrors what is done in the private sector and is done to auditing standards — to the same materiality levels. It is based on risk and analytical review, compliance testing, substantive testing and so on.

The question the Deputy asked was why it did not uncover this issue. Simply put, we only became aware of it in February 2007 when we received the internal audit report. We did not know this investigation was going on because, as I understand it, it was not part of the internal audit plan of FÁS. We would normally share the internal audit plan with FÁS but in this case it was a special investigation and we were informed when it finished and after the audit committee had signed off on it. We would only have become aware at that point, which was February 2007, although I am speaking from memory. It is a material issue and a reporting issue and it was brought to light under the second prong of our audit approach in the public service, the reporting approach.

Over the past eight years or so, the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff would have seen all FÁS internal audit reports as a matter of course.

Mr. John Buckley

Yes, we try to avoid duplicating what the internal audit does to make sure we get maximum coverage from both services. We would know from normal FÁS audit plans what the organisation is doing, which training centres it was looking at and so on. For this reason, we tend to look at other areas that FÁS is not looking at in the particular year. I understand FÁS operates over a three to four year cycle. We try not to duplicate what it does.

Most of our work in the procurement area is based on random sampling so we could in some instances pick invoices from across a wide spectrum of the organisation. In most of that work breaches had not been showing up other than the stuff we found in 2002-03, which related to lack of proper tendering and requisite numbers of tenders, quotes and so on. As a result, the internal audit did an investigation. Sometimes it picks up on our management letters and does a more in-depth examination.

Was the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General aware of the serious irregularities identified in Special Report No. 10, including breaches of procurement and tendering rules, serious value for money issues, the cavalier approach to some aspects of advertising and conflicts of interest? If it had been aware of these matters, would the reports from 2000 to 2007 have been qualified in any way?

Mr. John Buckley

We have two types of output. In the second type, reporting output, the document is brought before Parliament. It is this document the Deputy has before him. I will continue the policy of my predecessor of having two prongs. The primary question is whether public accountability is discharged, whether we produce a report that brings before Parliament a material issue. These kinds of issues are material by nature and context and are obviously not substantial sums in absolute terms. However, from the point of view of financial audit, the audit of the accounts of a €1 billion operation, the materiality of the amounts lost would not cause one to qualify the accounts.

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General indicating that the existence of a special audit within FÁS was not made known to him when his auditors went into the organisation?

Mr. John Buckley

That is my understanding and the briefing I have from my staff.

Why was the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General not informed of the existence of a special audit?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am a little taken aback because I am quite sure we followed normal procedures in terms of this audit, as we do with all other audits. We do a plan of audit every year which is shown to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Occasionally, when issues arise we instigate a special investigation. The normal practice when we instigate a special investigation is that on completion of the investigation, the findings are sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Is Mr. Molloy stating that FÁS informed the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the special investigation?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We followed the normal procedure.

I am asking a simple question. Did FÁS inform the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the special audit? Mr. Molloy is saying it did.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We did so when the audit was completed, which is the normal practice.

Mr. John Buckley

Yes, that it is true. We were informed when it was completed. However, we were not aware of it while it was ongoing because it was a special investigation and not a normal internal audit. We only became aware of it when it was finished and the internal audit committee of FÁS signed off on it. That was the first we became aware of it.

Mr. Molloy should not become annoyed when I ask as simple question. I want to clarify matters in my mind on this issue.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am not getting annoyed.

The committee is getting an avalanche of information and must try to digest and understand it to be fair to everybody. All I asked was whether Mr. Molloy's organisation informed the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the existence of a special audit which, as Mr. Molloy stated, lasted for years.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The implication was that we were somehow hiding something from the Comptroller and Auditor General. That was not the case.

I asked a simple question. Did FÁS inform the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am giving a full answer to the question. We followed normal procedures.

FÁS did not inform the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We informed it in the normal manner, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has just confirmed.

It was done after the investigation was completed.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Comptroller and Auditor General has confirmed that is normal practice.

Given that the investigation dragged on for so long, should the matter not have been brought to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General at the earliest possible time?

Mr. Rody Molloy

In hindsight, that may well be the case but I am being criticised for raising concerns about the length of time the audit took. The audit dragged on for too long and should have been completed much more quickly.

Is that standard practice? If the Comptroller and Auditor General is responsible for the external audit, I presume organisations are required to notify his office if some kind of subterranean activity has been taking place in terms of concerns about practices and procedures.

Mr. John Buckley

I agree that is the position and that should be the standard practice. There is usually an opportunity to do that in the letter of representation which is issued by the CEO at the end of every audit. One of the things that arose in the clearance of the recent accounts was this issue of not finding out about these things until such time as the audit committee has signed off on them. I directed that we take up this issue with FÁS. We will have to iron out a way of getting earlier signals and information on such issues. That would be more the norm in every other organisation. Departments especially bring to our attention fraudulent or suspicious activity. That is a general rule within the service.

On the general auditing of the organisation, when I was last on this committee, which was in the 1990s, substantial funding was provided by the European Social Fund. I am not sure to what extent that is still the case. Are European Union auditing standards required with regard to how FÁS discharges its expenditure?

Mr. John Buckley

As I do not have that information with me, I will have to get back to the Deputy about specific requirements in the case of ESF funding.

My colleagues and I believe the Department of Finance should have a central role in the committee's investigation given its involvement in the audit committee. We must hear from the Department on these matters.

I am amazed officials from the Department are not present. The Department should be asked to appear before the committee to explain its oversight of the issue.

With regard to colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mr. Molloy, in reply to a question, stated that employees could not be dismissed willy-nilly. Clearly, issues arise such as natural justice. What kind of standards would apply if it was considered that an employee had either done the job very badly, misbehaved, or carried on in a cavalier way without regard to public service standards and obligations, as the employee at the centre of the investigation was alleged to have done? What are the criteria for dismissing somebody for misbehaviour?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not want to wish to discuss a specific individual. The usual grounds for dismissal are if somebody knowingly defrauds the organisation, in other words, walks away with money. After that, one must be on a very sound footing to dismiss an employee. I took legal advice before and after receipt of the internal audit report on the appropriate response in terms of the issues raised in the report and I followed that advice to the letter.

Can the director general make a judgment as to whether in this case the level of breaches of procedures was such that the person should be dismissed?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Deputy is putting me on very difficult territory. I do not have privilege before the committee so anything I say could leave me open to legal proceedings.

Are any other internal audit investigations ongoing?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The only one I can think of is the one I mentioned, the recent case with invoices. By their nature, special investigations are unusual. When events occur, we immediately get the internal audit unit to carry out an investigation.

How many special investigations have been carried out since 2000?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I would have to check that. The number would be very small. The vast majority of our internal audit reports are normal inquiries agreed with the internal audit committee and notified to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The director general told our colleagues in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment in regard to the board's supervisory role that given its expenditure of €1 billion, it is difficult for the board to be aware of smaller contracts expended. FÁS is one of our biggest State agencies. Is it the practice of the board to occasionally carry out a spot check of the different departments to examine whether value for money was being achieved? The new unit opened for the pharma-industry in Carrigaline, County Cork, is worthy of praise. Did best practice pertain in that case?

Mr. Rody Molloy

As I said, all of the internal audit reports are given to the board by the chairman of the board's internal audit committee, so board members are aware of all of the activities. In terms of major projects like the one in Carrigaline, the board would have specifically approved the expenditure in that case. From time to time the board would ask us for a review of particular activities. That unit is only up and running for 12 months, so we would not have had a major review of it yet, other than the positive response we are getting from the industry itself on how it is operating. From time to time the board would ask us to examine a specific area of activity or would question what we were doing in particular areas. One should bear in mind that the board is made up of representatives of unions, industry and Departments, all of whom are at the coalface of economic activity in the country. The board members are aware in a general way of things happening and they raise concerns with us from time to time. We always respond to the board on those issues.

I have a final question on the allegations at the centre of the investigation. Is the director general categorically stating he did not authorise the advertising programme with the Clondalkin Gazette and the Blanchardstown Gazette worth €100,000?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No, I think that was a defensive mechanism. The allegation was withdrawn in the subsequent disciplinary process. In fairness, that has attracted a lot of attention but it was not just one newspaper. The group in question owned a large number of publications across west Dublin where we have a substantial target client base. There is a statement somewhere in the documentation that we never advertise in local media. Given the target group we want to reach, of course we sometimes advertise in the local media if we want a response to a local activity.

The implication was that it was the start-up of a new local media chain and the contract was of significant assistance to it.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I think it was in the early stages of that group and the argument is that because the media chain was starting up one could get very good rates and advertising access to a large population area spreading from Blanchardstown to south Dublin. That was the argument put up in defence of the decision taken.

Arising from questions posed by Deputy Broughan, I wish to add a question on FÁS advertising. Does Mr. Molloy agree with the strategy of the Director of Corporate Affairs that using large media budgets was an effective way of controlling media coverage of FÁS? Mr. Molloy may laugh but that statement is on record.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, I understand that the argument was made. I also understand that people feel that perhaps by advertising with a media organisation one might get preferential treatment. I suggest that what has happened to us in recent months suggests that if one needs proof that it is not the case then we have it.

Were threats ever made to the media in any way?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I never made any threats to the media.

With regard to the advertising strategy in place with FÁS, what is the agency's position on brand building? Does it place advertisements in the media for mere name recognition? In his opening statement Mr. Molloy said it is important to invest heavily in advertising to get across information on FÁS programmes and activities. The evidence is that specific programmes are not advertised but rather the brand itself is promoted. For example, FÁS sponsors a mobile radio studio for a leading Dublin radio station and the only message is "FÁS". I expect the cost of that is considerable.

According to figures from the Institute of Advertising Practitioners in Ireland, FÁS spent €28 million on advertising promotions and conferences in a three-year period between 2005 and 2007. The budget increased by 40% in that time. FÁS outspends Ryanair, one of the most successful companies in the country, in advertising by a factor of 3:1 and it spent two thirds of the advertising budget of AIB, one of the country's biggest banks. How can Mr. Molloy justify the massive expenditure on advertising?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I have read those figures in a Sunday newspaper. I am not sure how accurate they are. All I can tell the Chairman is what we spend, and that is laid out in our annual report. As I understand it, the vast majority of our expenditure is geared around specific programmes where we are trying to generate interest. The Chairman will be aware that the radio station that was mentioned is especially popular with young people of a particular age who we are trying to target to get into our training activities and to make them aware of the services FÁS provide. It is a subjective call as to whether that is a worthwhile way of getting at that target group. A decision was made at the time that it would be a useful way to engage with a particular group of people with whom we find it difficult to engage.

In 2004-05 almost 30% of the advertising budget was spent on outdoor media advertising. Is this not part of the Garda investigation?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is one part which concerns the posters but the vast majority of the sum spent was directed specifically at the opportunities event in Croke Park that year. A smaller amount was spent on the event that took place in the Nemo Rangers complex in Cork.

It is part of the Garda investigation.

Mr. Rody Molloy

In that case there was an allegation that FÁS was being charged for posters that were not being put up or used for advertising. The Garda said to us it had examined this but had found it difficult. One cannot go back in time and prove whether a poster was erected on a particular site.

Did Mr. Rody Molloy check himself?

Mr. Rody Molloy

As a casual observer driving through the country at the time in question, I saw plenty of posters advertising the Opportunities event.

If I were putting up election posters during an election campaign, I would ensure the 500 to be put up were put up. The FÁS postering budget was considerable but Mr. Molloy is telling me he never checked.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I did not specifically go around and check, no.

I did not ask whether Mr. Molloy went around and checked. Did he have any method in place to check that the spend on posters reflected the number erected?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Not specifically. As Mr. Sands tells me, the poster agencies give us reports on where posters are in place. By way of casual observation, there were certainly plenty of posters advertising the Opportunities event each year because it is one of the ways we advertise it.

I welcome Mr. Molloy and the other witnesses. I will begin with a question on advertising, as mentioned by the Chairman. Mr. Molloy said in his opening statement that there was no mystery as to where FÁS spent its money.

The Chairman asked about the figures quoted in newspapers for the amount of money being spent on advertising and Mr. Molloy replied that the figures were set out clearly in FÁS's annual report. I have examined the report and cannot find the figure for advertising. Perhaps somebody could direct me to where it is mentioned. I do not know how much FÁS is spending on advertising.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am told that it is not specifically mentioned, for which I apologise.

Exactly, it is not specifically mentioned.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I can give the figures to the Deputy for 2007. The total figure is €7.5 million.

Where is it buried?

It is probably buried under a lot of different cost headings. How does the figure compare with that for 2006?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot state the figure for 2006 off the top of my head but can obtain it for the Deputy.

May we have the figures for the past five years?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, we can produce them for the Deputy.

Mr. Molloy will agree it is not in the annual report.

I was an auditor before becoming a Member of the Oireachtas. Mr. Molloy criticised his own internal audit department for going to an outside company in respect of its investigations without informing senior management. He has said this is not normal practice but it is. The people for whom I was working in the commercial sector did so when I was auditing. It was the only way one could secure independent verification of certain points. I am not suggesting for one minute that Mr. Molloy would have done anything untoward with any outside organisation but what occurred could lead somebody to believe that, if there were a certain relationship with an outside company, he could pre-warn those concerned and arrive at a certain position in answering questions with respect to his own internal audit department. Interference rubbishes the idea of undertaking an internal audit in the first place. It appears there was interference.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Again, I can only repeat what I said to Deputy Shortall. When I raised these issues, the audit was complete. The audit department had done its work and I did not interfere with the process of the audit. I raised issues about how the audit had been conducted after the event but I in no way interfered with the conclusions of the audit. I made this clear and the audit committee accepted it without any reservation.

Mr. Molloy put down a marker as to the way he wanted internal audits to be carried out in the future.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I put down a marker as to where I believed things might have been done a little better; that is all. One should bear in mind that the internal audit section is part of our organisation. It is managed by the organisation. One of the issues for me associated with internal auditing is that the internal audit must be of assistance to management to ensure we get our procedures right. In a situation where it is seen as otherwise by management, there is a problem in an organisation. I want a situation where our managers, if they have doubts, feel free to call in the internal auditors to ask for help in addressing a problem rather than fear an internal audit and react against it.

I accept that the auditors must report to management but they must still be seen to be independent. What Mr. Molloy is doing cuts across this.

Mr. Molloy has accepted that the investigation that took place took far too long but I will not go over that issue again. He received the draft report in January 2006. It is fair enough to say it had to be brought to the attention of individuals named therein to give them an opportunity to respond. I do not have a problem with that but it still took another four months to have the report issued. Why did the process take so long? It could have been completed within a matter of weeks.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Unfortunately, it was not. We were taking legal advice all the way on this because of the nature of the findings in the audit report and the consequences they would have for individuals named in it. The process took longer to complete because the process of consultation took that length of time. I could not control this. I accept that the process dragged on and on for way too long but in the end, when the first draft report was produced, we had legal advice to follow a particular course of action. We followed that course of action.

Even following that course of action seemed to take an inordinately long time.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It may seem that way but the problem was that it was a process we had to go through because of the issues raised in the report.

I contend it still should not have taken that long to complete.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot undo that now, as the Deputy will appreciate.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Perhaps it did take longer than it should have but all I can say is that we were very careful to ensure we followed legal and audit advice all the way.

Are we saying it took from January to May 2006?

The draft report was issued in January 2006 and the final report came out in May that year. There was a period of four months when FÁS was just consulting one or two individuals named in the report. That seems too long a period.

Mr. Rody Molloy

One of the reasons for the delay was that some of the individuals involved took legal advice before they were prepared to engage in consultation.

In recent years the rate of unemployment in Ireland decreased dramatically to approximately 4%, which suggests there would have been less need for some of FÁS's services. However, despite the reduction in the number of people with whom FÁS had to deal, the budget allocations were increasing and the organisation was spending an increasing amount of money.

In 1999 FÁS had a throughput of 99,000 people over a range of different programmes. By 2007 the number of participants was reduced to 71,500 people, a dramatic fall. There was no matching fall in the amount of money spent by FÁS which means the unit costs were rising substantially. How is it that throughput fell by 12.5% but the amount spent increased by 35%?

Mr. Rody Molloy

In 1999, FÁS was seen solely as an organisation dealing with the unemployed. The full title of the organisation is the National Training and Employment Authority and it has a clearly defined training role. In 1999 this would have had a low priority in the organisation because of the need to address the high numbers of unemployed. When the unemployment rate fortunately started to go down, FÁS began to engage in training in a serious way. One way of getting out of the current economic difficulties is through upskilling. FÁS has diverted substantial resources into training, for both unemployed and employed people. While unemployment came down dramatically during this period, the community employment scheme programme was a major expenditure with 22,0000 participants which rose for a short period to 40,000. Notwithstanding that unemployment was at 4% during this time, there was still a substantial number who were long-term unemployed.

That is fair enough. One can see that from the number of apprenticeships which have increased from 1999 to 2007. The overall throughput, however, went down while expenditure went up. It does not add up.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It does. First, a substantial proportion of what FÁS pays out is allowances related to social welfare payments. Any increase in social welfare must be paid by FÁS in its corresponding programmes.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Equally, the nature of the training FÁS provided has changed over the time. The apprenticeships started with 2,000 and rose to 11,000. Two years ago it peaked at 29,000 but it now stands at 27,000 places. It is a demand programme and costs much more than running the community employment scheme. FÁS has to deliver phase 2 of the programme through its training centres. FÁS must also pay allowances for those who go on to phase 4 and phase 6 in the institutes of technology.

I accept that carrying out different types of training can be more expensive. Given the large fall in the throughput, that cannot make up such a substantial difference.

Mr. Rody Molloy

All programmes are assessed from time to time and have come through evaluations reasonably well. I will, if the Deputy wishes, take him through in detail the spend of each programme and our wide-ranging activities but I cannot do it here. A large increase in our expenditure on training is aimed at engaging low-skilled workers. It has proved to be difficult to get at that sector. There is a cost in setting up the programme and getting it running. I do not have the figures at the top of my head but they are contained in my opening statement.

During that period FÁS had an obligation to train people for the safe pass card programme and other construction skills certification scheme programmes on building sites. Again, these were expensive programmes to deliver.

We could go around in circles on this. It just does not add up for me.

Does the internal audit unit report to Mr. Molloy? Why was the senior executive in Independent newspapers annoyed by the audit? Mr. Molloy surely could have explained to him this was standard procedure.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not went to get into specifics around a conversation between myself and another individual who is not present. In my eight years in the organisation, this was the first type of such an internal audit report that I encountered. Internal audit reports go through normal processes with the internal audit committee and management of the section being audited. It only comes to my attention if there is a serious breach, a person must be dismissed or a particular programme needs to be closed down. The seriousness of the allegations in this case and the consequences for the individual concerned were the reason I became involved in this.

Why was the senior executive from the Independent newspaper group annoyed?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Again, the Deputy will understand that I am nervous——

Much money is spent on all media by the organisation.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It had nothing to do with Independent newspapers. It had to do with issues in the running of operations. The Independent group is a partner in running the opportunities event at Croke Park. The concern for the individual was that even the notion of an internal audit from another organisation could cast some doubt on his activities which was not the reason for the audit. He felt it would have been courteous on our part to have alerted him that this would happen.

When was disciplinary procedure against the former director of corporate affairs carried out? Has it been finalised?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It has been finalised. We got the report in February 2007 from the head of human resources recommending particular action. That action was taken. The disciplinary procedure has been mostly gone through but some of it may be ongoing.

Was he still director of corporate affairs until June 2007?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes but we had put in very strict reporting arrangements for him. We put a whole management process both beneath and above him to ensure——

Yet the organisation was prepared to leave him in his position, only that he went on sick leave.

Mr. Rody Molloy

He went on sick leave for other reasons into which I am not going to go. He had stayed in the job until that time.

He would still be there now except that he went on sick leave.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The organisation has a rotation process. After a certain number of years people are moved within the organisation.

He would still be at quite a senior level.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, he is at director level within the organisation, equivalent to the principal officer grade in the public service.

This is despite the fact that FÁS knew what he had done and it was in the public domain, with serious breaches of procurement guidelines.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Again, we are talking about an individual, and I am somewhat nervous about this. All I can say is that we took legal advice as regards what we could and should not do. We went through a disciplinary process, recommendations were made about the appropriate action to be taken and this was carried out.

Is it possible that the individual concerned could have gained financially from the activities, apart from his salary?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not know of any gain. If the audit report pointed to a clear gain that was inappropriate, we might be in a different situation, but it did not indicate any such outcome.

This individual also received bonus payments.

Mr. Rody Molloy

That is correct.

Did he receive these on an annual basis?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I believe it was in 2004-05, as a once-off payment for a particular activity, when be brought substantial income into the organisation.

That was prior to this——

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, that was prior to the outcome of this report.

When did the practice of awarding bonuses come into play?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There is a standard procedure, as set out in Department of Finance circulars concerning bonus payments in State bodies, which we follow. I gave some detail earlier in reply to Deputy O'Brien about the process.

I welcome the delegation led by Mr. Molloy and I have a few simple questions, to which I hope I can get answers. Mr. Molloy read the anonymous letter in 2004 and it was 2007 before the investigation took place.

Mr. Rody Molloy

No, it started in 2004 and was completed in 2006.

Has this committee had sight of that anonymous letter?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Not that I am aware. However, I do not have any problem as regards the committee seeing the anonymous letter.

I believe the committee should have a copy of the letter and that it should be made available. Does FÁS get many anonymous letters?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We get some, although not too many.

Why are some regarded as being more serious than others?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It is due to the nature of the allegations and in this case the fact that the letter had been passed to me by the then Tánaiste.

Was it addressed to the Tánaiste's office?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It was referred to the Tánaiste's office and referred to me, at the time.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We get all types of anonymous letters, making allegations. If the allegations are sufficiently serious we take a discreet look to see whether there is a possibility they might contain some truth. In this case, however, because the allegations were so serious and pointed, we believed it was appropriate to do a full investigation.

We, as politicians, often get anonymous letters from people with a chip on their shoulder, but that is a different matter.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Indeed.

When was this investigation completed?

Mr. Rody Molloy

In 2006.

It is with the Garda.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am sorry, no. I was referring to the internal audit investigation. My recollection is that towards the end of 2005 we referred the specific issue to the Garda Síochána, which is still with it.

Were the allegations of a political nature, or were they sincerely held?

Mr. Rody Molloy

They were allegations of a criminal nature.

My last question is as regards community employment. Does the director general foresee any expansion in community employment schemes in present circumstances? While they are very useful schemes in rural areas and in villages and towns, I understand that quite a number of people within a certain age cohort are coming on stream to avail of them. Is the policy going to change?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not envisage an immediate increase in community employment, but clearly we are in changed circumstances. As is the norm, I will be interacting with the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on issues as they evolve in the labour market. Ultimately, however, it will be a Government decision as to whether to increase community employment.

With regard to existing projects, many of the people involved are finishing their time and coming off these schemes and we shall have those in higher age levels seeking to avail of them, possibly because of the downturn in the construction industry, comprising mainly of male employment. Will there be an opportunity for such workers to avail of those schemes where people are retiring?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Again, clearly we have a fixed number of people on the schemes. We are always anxious to get people off them and into normal employment. The more we can get off at one end, the more scope there is to bring new people in. That is something we are constantly striving to do. The programme's advantage lies in getting people in for sufficient time to redevelop their skills, give them back their confidence or whatever, depending on the nature of the project, and get them back into the open market. That is the aim of the scheme, and that is what we try to do all the time.

With regard to apprenticeships and those who have partly completed their training, what is the up-to-date position? A substantial number of such people are now available, who effectively have no skills because of the demise of apprenticeships within the building industry, electrical companies and such like.

Mr. Rody Molloy

As I stated at the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, this is a matter of particular concern for FÁS as it covers the whole issue of people who lose their jobs during the course of their apprenticeships. We are putting whatever measures we can in place to try to keep people in the system, so that at least they may obtain craft certificates at the end of their time. We cannot guarantee them employment, but we shall do everything possible to ensure they reach that stage. We have a number of proposals under active discussion with the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding mechanisms that could be employed if the numbers grow substantially, to ensure that at least people can get their final qualifications.

Can FÁS give such people in-house training without their having to go through a contractor, for instance?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We cannot, because the nature of the apprenticeship is such that a substantial part of it involves training on-the-job. We cover academic and specific training in-house, but the on-the-job aspect is very important. I can demonstrate this for the Deputy in a manner that, perhaps, will make sense. We have been doing work with the community colleges in the United States in comparing the apprenticeship systems that are in place. They came here and did an analysis of our system and concluded that the skill levels of our apprentices were much higher than those held by the people emerging from the US system. The reason for this was the on-the-job part of the training.

We argue that the on-the-job part of the training should be an integral part of the apprenticeship system. We therefore must find a mechanism whereby when people lose their jobs they can get on-the-job training through some other employer or mechanism. If we are to protect the integrity of the system, on-the-job training is essential. That is not just my assessment. It is the assessment done by a reputable outside body which came to that conclusion while trying to improve its own system.

I am concerned about this because in the darker days of the 1980s we did not train people. There was an enormous explosion in development in the late 1980s and early 1990s and we did not have trained people. I hope we will not have a repeat of those dark days and that there is a brighter time ahead.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Exactly, and I have made precisely that point to the CIF at various meetings in recent months, essentially saying that if their members do not keep at least minimum numbers of apprentices in the various trades, they should not approach FÁS in three years' time complaining that they have no plumbers, carpenters or electricians. I cannot produce them overnight, as it takes three or four years to train them.

Can FÁS not introduce a programme to help alleviate this problem? I have no doubt that the construction industry, electrical contractors and other trades will not be able to take on those people.

Mr. Rody Molloy

As I have said, we are under active discussion with the Tánaiste on possible methods by which the issue raised by the Deputy might be addressed.

There are a number of supplementary questions. However, before I ask Deputy O'Brien to come in, can Mr Molloy give the committee a figure for the amount spent on the domain name, "Jobs Ireland"?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Chairman is referring to the website. There was a figure in the report of €1.3 million, I believe. That was the amount spent on developing that website.

What level of consultation took place with FÁS on the development of the external website?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not know, since there was no consultation with me, as I was not in place at the time.

I am referring to FÁS as an organisation.

Mr. Rody Molloy

As I understand it, the consultation was with the public affairs people who were under pressure to get a website up and running quickly. They were going to various parts of the world at the time, trying to attract skilled people to Ireland to meet what was a very pressing need.

Is the director general suggesting the FÁS website was ineffective?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The decision made at the time by management was that to do this in-house would have put undue pressure on them if they were to develop this at the pace that was needed.

What consultation took place in the development of the external website?

Mr. Rody Molloy

That was handled through our public affairs people.

I know that. What consultation took place?

Mr. Rody Molloy

They would have worked with the developers, I presume, spelling out what they needed, what requirements there were and how quickly they needed to respond. Let us be honest about it. We closed down the website very quickly because it was not delivering what we expected it to deliver.

Surely FÁS should have satisfied itself that it would have delivered what it expected it to deliver. I refer to a meeting held in mid-2000 between the advertising agency involved and the then director of information technology. Will Mr. Molloy elaborate on why that meeting took place? The director at that time is on record as claiming that the meeting was used as an opportunity to study the FÁS website as a template for the development of the separate jobs website.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not know to what precise meeting the Chairman is referring.

It was a meeting that took place in the offices of the then advertising agency.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Right. It was with our head of——

I do not want to name him but he was then director of information technology.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Depending on the timing of that meeting, it could have been part of the process of extracting ourselves from that contract and closing down the website.

No, it was prior to the development. He claimed that at the meeting he was asked to describe in detail the elements and functionality of the Job Bank system which was formally launched in May 2000, before the development. He claimed this was used as a template for the development of the separate Jobs Ireland website.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes.

What does the director general mean by "Yes"?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was just responding.

That is fine.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The meeting took place and clearly the people who were going to develop the website were, as I understand it, trying to see what elements of our website they could put into their development. It was a separate development which, in hindsight, we should not have engaged in, but we did.

Did the board of FÁS sign off on that expenditure and the concept?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not believe so.

They never signed off?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not believe so.

What systems failure occurred? How could those in charge of expenditure control and oversight not realise the concept was ineffective, given that FÁS had so many experts in its organisation?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not suppose they set out to set up something that was ineffective. To be fair to them——

Is it not the fact that the company involved was set up just ten days prior to getting the contract?

Mr. Rody Molloy

That is in the report.

I know it is in the report. I want Mr. Molloy to explain it. How did it get the contract when it was only set up ten days before that?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The whole essence of the report is that there were breaches of procedures. This is one of the breaches of procedures referred to in the report. I will not defend a breach of procedure. On the contrary, that is why we went through this process and took disciplinary action against people. I cannot defend a breach of procedure.

I am just asking. I call Deputy O'Brien.

With regard to the pension fund within FÁS, the annual report states that FÁS contributed to a defined benefit pension scheme covering former AnCO staff. Is the pension scheme operational for all FÁS employees?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No, it is a closed pensions scheme, although it is still in existence. We have been in a process with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Finance, as have a number of State agencies, because there are issues around pension schemes and the FRS treatment in the accounts. The latest position is that the Government has decided in principle that it would take over the whole pension process for a number of State agencies, including ours. We are now in the process of negotiating how that will actually happen.

The pension details shown in the annual report relate only to former AnCO staff. Are there other pension costs?

Mr. Rody Molloy

There are other pension costs as well. There is a specific closed scheme for former AnCO staff.

I can see that on page 4.

Mr. Rody Molloy

In addition, we have the normal open pension schemes for other employees in the organisation.

So FÁS is in the process of moving the closed scheme.

Mr. Rody Molloy

A change process is happening with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Finance around how the pension schemes for non-commercial State bodies are handled.

I am looking at the returns for 2005 and 2006. If it is a closed scheme that is fair enough. However, from a reading of the figures for those years, the returns on the fund were very poor.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The problem with a closed scheme, as the Deputy knows, is that there is increasing liability and reduced inflows to it.

I am talking about the investment return.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have a pensions sub-committee that analyses the investment return from year to year. The last report we had from that sub-committee — Mr. Sands will correct me if I am wrong — is that relative to other pension funds we have been doing quite well.

Perhaps Mr. Sands can clarify whether the returns on page 44 are annualised returns or returns in that specific year. To take the example of 2005, a 5.94% return is very poor against any benchmark in that year.

Mr. Donal Sands

That is based on the rate of returns and the assumptions the actuaries would have made when trying to work out the funding shortfall on the closed scheme for the purposes of FRS17. They make assumptions based on the long term, both on the rate of return on assets and on the discount rate on cash and salary escalations, which would involve both promotion and ordinary pay agreements, for example. They have to make assumptions in projecting forward what the liability is likely to be in the future and then look at what is in the fund and, under FRS17, attempt to gauge what the shortfall would be.

In any case, FÁS is in the process and is engaged with the Department in this regard.

Mr. Donal Sands

Yes.

To follow on from Deputy Kenneally's point with regard to costs versus the number of clients using the services, we understand there have been substantial increases in welfare payments, which also apply to FÁS and clients on its schemes. It would be helpful to get a clearer picture of this. For example, I do not know how much FÁS invests year on year in capital investments, although I assume there were increases in these costs, for example, the investment in Carrigaline in County Cork may have added to those increases in costs. If possible, I would like to see a clearer breakdown of this. It is an issue the committee needs to address. We need to have a clearer picture as to why costs increased when unemployment was falling.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Obviously, these are not figures I carry around in my head.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We will prepare a schedule for the committee of our expenditure over the past five years under the headings we get from Government with some explanation of what has taken place within that activity.

That would be very helpful.

Mr. Rody Molloy

It would probably be more useful than the annual report and accounts. In any case, we can do that for the committee.

The Deputy referred to capital expenditure. In recent years, we have had substantial increases in capital expenditure because many of our premises, training centres and employment services offices have become quite rundown in what was a very bad period. Even from a health and safety perspective, we had to make a substantial investment to improve them, notwithstanding the investment in Carrigaline, which was a new project for us, and the construction industry centre which we will be opening shortly in Mount Lucas. In that time, we completely rebuilt Tallaght training centre, which had fallen into complete disrepair, and we undertook a major refurbishment of the Ballyfermot training centre.

That information is crucial. While I will not go back to the opening statement, people are saying that FÁS has a €1 billion budget but does not know what it is doing with it. The public is our main concern, as it is for FÁS as a State agency. The public is entitled to clarity in regard to investment over several years in capital projects from which it will hope to benefit in terms of improved training facilities, refurbishment of premises and so on. I ask the delegates to communicate these details to the committee, with a particular focus on the major projects to which Mr. Molloy referred. We are interested in the overall spend but also the top five or ten projects.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We will be glad to furnish such a schedule, including some explanatory material.

My final question relates to the role and composition of FÁS's advisory committees. The board comprises 17 members. I accept it is important to have a broad spectrum of expertise from across the market, both State and private. However, in addition to this number, some 80 individuals comprise the membership of the various advisory committees, including the apprenticeship advisory committee, the national advisory board on the construction industry, the committee for disabilities, the committee on employment services and the national advisory board for engineering. Does Mr. Molloy agree that this structure seems top-heavy? Are members of the various advisory committees paid for their services? Is it necessary to have this number of committees and members?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The advisory committees are extremely useful to us because they provide a means of engaging with the people who are essentially our stakeholders in a particular area. For example, in the area of disability, there are numerous groups with different views on how we and others should interact with persons with disabilities. It is important that we have a sense of how their needs are defined. If we are devising a new programme, we need to know the views of those with expertise in this area on how it will ultimately be delivered. It affords us an opportunity when launching a new programme, or reviewing an existing one, to adapt it to respond to specific needs as identified by the experts in that area. Members of the advisory committees provide their service voluntarily, with some devoting an inordinate amount of time to helping us define programmes in a way that makes them most useful to those at whom they are targeted.

In what year was the external website launched and when was it shut down?

Mr. Rody Molloy

If I recall correctly, the contract was signed in May 2000. Towards the end of 2001 I instructed that it be closed down and we then began the process of extracting ourselves from the contract.

On the position of the person involved in awarding the contract and dealing with the external experts, did any alarm bells ring at that stage? Given that approval for the project went through without the sanction of the board, was there any reprimand for the individual concerned?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was unaware at the time that there was any reason for a reprimand. My position was that I was not satisfied with the situation, where the two websites were running side by side. I joined the organisation in November 2000. As I said, this was a breach of procedure which should not have happened. I did not go into that detail when I concluded that it was unhelpful to have two websites running and moved to close down the external one. Perhaps I should have done so but I did not track back the process by which the website had been set up.

Mr. Molloy is saying no alarms bell rang and that it rolled on until June 2008.

Mr. Rody Molloy

No, the website was shut down in 2001.

Yes, but the individual concerned was not reprimanded.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We received the report at the end of 2006 and it was signed off on finally in early 2007, at which point disciplinary action was taken against the person concerned.

If an individual in a private company spent €1.7 million on a system or service that was shut down within months, he or she would be out the door. The individual in question was responsible for what happened and Mr. Molloy was ultimately responsible. The decision to proceed with the project never went to the board.

Mr. Rody Molloy

All I can say is I took legal advice every step of the way in respect of the appropriate action to be taken.

Did that legal advice preclude Mr. Molloy from doing anything at all?

Mr. Rody Molloy

No, but it set parameters in regard to what I could and could not do and set out the risks for the organisation in taking particular courses of action.

Was Mr. Molloy advised that he could do nothing about the fact that somebody had misspent some €1.7 million?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Chairman used the word "misspent". The fact is that nobody set out deliberately to waste money. People were under pressure to set up a website and deal with the situation. They did so in a way which we can now say was inappropriate. At the time, however, they were responding to particular needs.

The director of information at the time is on record as saying the information technology manager was never informed that the Jobs Ireland website was to be developed. Moreover, he maintains that at the interview to discuss the project which was attended by the director of corporate affairs it was made clear that it would be based on the FÁS website template.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was not in the organisation at the time. When I joined it shortly afterwards, the information technology manager to whom the Chairman referred expressed these concerns to me. That is what led to the decision to close down the website.

I understood Mr. Molloy to say it was shut down because it was ineffective.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I realised it was ineffective because the information technology manager brought it to my attention that two separate websites were running. That is how I was alerted to the issue and began asking whether two separate websites were needed and whether we could extract ourselves from the contract for the external one.

I can only conclude that the performance of senior management was ineffective in letting this issue roll on.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We did not let it roll on. We stopped it.

Yes, but the director of corporate affairs was allowed to roll on without any reprimand.

Mr. Rody Molloy

That is unfair. I did not know this was going on until I received the internal audit report.

Alarm bells should have rung when Mr. Molloy saw a company getting a contract that was set up only ten days before. It used the template of the FÁS website——

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was not involved in the process of agreeing that contract and did not know about it until I received the internal audit report. The head of information technology communicated to me his view that it did not make sense to run the two systems. After reviewing the matter, I came to the same conclusion and instructed that the external website be shut down.

We could argue all day on this point but I will draw my own conclusion.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Of course.

I note that FÁS has an employee code of ethics. Will Mr. Molloy provide us with a copy?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Certainly.

Is it compatible with the Civil Service code of standards and behaviour? Does it provide for declarations of interest and, if so, at what level do they apply?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It provides for a declaration of interest at all levels.

At what staff level is a declaration required?

Mr. Rody Molloy

My colleagues advise me that it applies to managers of key posts such as procurement, all directors and all board members, including myself.

Will Mr. Mulligan outline the procedures whereby FÁS reports to the Department?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

We have an extensive reporting relationship with FÁS which is one of the largest agencies under the aegis of the Department. As an official of the Department, I sit on the board of FÁS and the Department has a significant impact on the development of FÁS. Its senior management team meets management of the Department's labour force development division each quarter. In addition, this division monitors spending by FÁS in terms of the draw-down of funds from the Department on a weekly and monthly basis. Moreover, we monitor the performance of the organisation against the output statement on which the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment reports to the Oireachtas.

Obviously in the context of the annual Estimates process, there are discussions on what the money is to be spent on in advance of the Estimates and the budget allocation. Thereafter, as I have described, there is a process of monitoring that throughout the year.

It is a close relationship with close monitoring.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

Yes.

At what point was the Department notified about the breaches identified in this report?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

There was a report to the board, of which I am a member, in respect of the breaches in the report. While I am unsure of when the report to the board was made, I will get the date for the Deputy. It was in 2006.

What actions did the Department take on foot of those breaches?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

The arrangements in respect of internal audit are that from the perspective of the Department, the key thing to ensure is that a set of audit arrangements are in place within the organisation that is in line with the code of practice. That set of audit arrangements is in place with a sub-committee of the board on auditing, which reports to the board once a year on the activities that have taken place in the previous year and on the work plan for the following year. That is the structure in which the audit report was dealt with.

As for action in respect of this particular audit report and the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report last April, the Tánaiste met the director general and chairman of FÁS. The Secretary General of the Department wrote to the director general of FÁS seeking assurances that some of the practices and activities described in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report had stopped, that adequate systems and controls were in place to ensure they would not happen again and requesting details of the actions taken by the director general to ensure this. The director general responded along the lines the committee heard earlier today in respect of the changes that have been made. Since then, a quarterly reporting mechanism has been put in place regarding those remedial actions for the director general to report to the Department on this. The Deputy also will be aware that a couple of weeks ago, the Tánaiste requested that the Comptroller and Auditor General should consider looking at a number of the practices in the FÁS organisation and he is considering that request.

May I take it from Mr. Mulligan's response that as a board member, he is not satisfied that proper procedures now are in place?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

The Deputy may take it that the Tánaiste considered that it might be useful if the Comptroller and Auditor General were to look at what activities took place in the past to ascertain whether anything can or should be improved upon.

Was such a recommendation made to the Tánaiste or was it on foot of media reporting?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

The Tánaiste arrived at that decision after discussions with the chairman and director general of FÁS.

Briefly, I wish to raise a couple of issues on the accounts, if that is in order. I have some quick questions. First, I cannot see in the accounts what was the total figure for bonuses paid within FÁS. How many people received bonuses last year?

Mr. Christy Cooney

The bonuses figure is included in the payroll figure.

I cannot identify it.

Mr. Christy Cooney

It is not shown separately.

Can the witnesses get them for me?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Off the top of my head, I do not have the total figure but I can revert to the Deputy.

The witnesses should revert to the committee with the number of people who received bonuses.

Mr. Christy Cooney

Yes.

What were the directors' fees last year?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The chairman gets a fee of €24,000 per annum and each member of the board receives a fee of €14,000, which I understand is standard for non-commercial State bodies.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, they get travel expenses when that is appropriate.

There is a figure in the accounts of €54 million for training of people in employment in industry. That appears to be an enormous amount. It has risen steadily in recent years and I believe it doubled between 2005 and 2006. It started off at €24 million, increased to €42 million and then rose to €54 million, which constitute substantial increases at a time when business was booming. What is the justification for a State training agency essentially subsidising the training needs of industry? I ask this as many members are aware of considerable numbers of people in their constituencies who have had great difficulty in accessing employment even when full employment obtained. Such people had glaring training needs. What is the justification for such a subsidy and what are the criteria for spending that funding? How does FÁS select the companies it subsidises?

Mr. Rody Molloy

A real need was identified among low-skill people in employment who were the ones most likely to lose their jobs even in good times. The national skills strategy identified a real weakness in the economy in respect of the number of low-skill people, even if they were in employment. Part of this problem relates to the good times in the sense that many children were sucked out of the education system and onto construction sites or whatever without qualifications. We knew the day would come when they would begin to lose their jobs. We were asked to develop a programme that would try to engage with low-skill people in employment in a way that could upskill them without interfering with their employment. We worked through virtually all of our major stakeholders, such as IBEC, the Small Firms Association, ISME, the chambers of commerce and the trade union movement, to find mechanisms by which we could deliver training to those people.

It has been a tough task on which to engage because as I have stated repeatedly, we know from research that companies which invest in training or further education tend to invest in those who already are well qualified. They tend not to invest in low-skill people. Equally, low-skill people tend to be those who are least motivated to look for upskilling. It comprised building a series of programmes around that with all the aforementioned people and there has been a substantial increase in funding for that particular activity in the past two to three years.

Perhaps Mr. Molloy will provide members with details of the companies with which FÁS was working last year.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I will provide full details of that programme.

Did those companies or any of the employer associations contribute to the cost of that training?

Mr. Rody Molloy

They contributed to the costs. The maximum payment we would make is in the order of 70% of the cost.

Very well. It would be appreciated were Mr. Molloy to provide members with a breakdown of the companies and the costs involved.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I will provide full details of that programme and how it has evolved in the past two to three years.

I wish to ask a final question on a completely separate issue. I refer to the question of the spare capacity that exists in the institutes of technology sector and the universities. I am thinking in particular of the computing faculties in universities, which have experienced a major drop-off in the number of students applying for undergraduate courses. To what extent is there potential for FÁS to develop training courses in the institutes of technology and the universities?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have a substantial number of information technology courses which we developed in-house to respond to demand. At a general level, we have been pushing for and trying to promote the notion of kids opting more for science and engineering-based programmes in the institutes of technology and universities because of what we perceive to be a need coming down the tracks, notwithstanding the present state of the economy, for high-skilled people. We have often stated the concern that unless such people come through the system, we will end up in a position in which we have numbers of unemployed people here who do not have such skills and we will be obliged to go abroad to attract in those who have the skills. We are trying to avoid that situation.

I am asking about the universities, where there is spare capacity. Has FÁS explored with the universities what training they could provide?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have a close relationship with the institutes of technology. We work with them frequently to ensure a flow between us. If they identified somewhere in them to which we can steer people, we will do so. Equally——

I am not discussing directing people into degree courses. I am referring to spare capacity in universities, particularly in the information technology area where staff may not be fully employed given the decrease in student numbers. Is there potential for universities to provide some training?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Probably more for the——

Not to degree level.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I am unsure regarding universities. In terms of institutes of technology, there may be spare capacity. It is not a matter that we have specifically explored with either. If there is, I suspect that the potential lies with the institutes rather than the universities.

I wish to ask about internal audits. How many have established that procurement policies or guidelines, such as those in the document on the Department of Finance's procurement rules——

Mr. Rody Molloy

They were all procurement rules.

Mr. Molloy stated that the procurement rules of FÁS and the Department matched closely. How many internal reports have established that FÁS has not followed the Department's procurement rules and in respect of which projects?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The only project of which I am immediately aware is the one in which our internal audit reverted to our procurement people on technical breaches. Mr. Kivlehan can supply the details. It was not as serious a breach as the Chairman mentioned. Rather, it was a departure in terms of the nature of a sign-off, a technical breach that has been corrected recently. Am I correct?

Mr. Patrick Kivlehan

Yes.

Is Mr. Molloy aware of other breaches?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Not off the top of my head.

It is a pity that personnel from the Department of Finance are not present. Is Mr. Buckley aware of other breaches?

Mr. John Buckley

We review these in the course of audits. In a range of reports, there are issues concerning tendering. Generally, the internal audit service goes to the training centres and certain head office areas, during which time matters such as unsatisfactory controls of tendering arise. In one instance, 23% of projects did not have the requisite number of quotes. The list continues like this — out-of-date contracts and so on.

The situation is similar to the findings that we brought to light in management letters. The breaches are procedural and indicate a lack of total compliance. By way of mitigation, it is important to state that findings of, for example, a single quote may exaggerate the situation in the sense that there may be only a single potential supplier in the area. In general, breaches arise and procurement features in approximately seven or eight internal audit reports every year.

It is a significant difference between Mr. Molloy's figure of one and——

Mr. Rody Molloy

I stated that I was immediately aware of one. The Chairman should please try to stop——

Mr. Molloy is the director general of the organisation.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Yes, but every one of our internal audit reports will question or challenge some procedure. In the majority of cases, the management's response deals with the concern and there is no issue. There was an issue in the example to which I referred, namely, a technical breach in our procurement division.

Will Mr. Molloy supply the committee with the full details?

Mr. Rody Molloy

The committee can have the whole lot. There is no problem in that respect.

That is what I am asking for.

Of the two Garda investigations under way, does Mr. Molloy know when the one under discussion today is likely to reach a conclusion?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I have no idea.

How were both investigations brought to the attention of the Garda?

Mr. Rody Molloy

We went directly to the Garda, with which we have contacts. We telephoned and asked gardaí to meet us, at which time we explained the background.

Was that a legal requirement under auditing rules?

Mr. Christy Cooney

Initially, we wrote to the Garda formally through Mr. Kivlehan as the director of internal audits. Subsequently, the Garda met us to discuss the case.

As a result of the audit and legal requirements?

Mr. Christy Cooney

Yes.

I will look back and forward. Looking back, I am familiar with the Safe Pass programme through my community work. There seemed to be ongoing problems. We no longer have 300,000 construction workers. While the training of Polish, Lithuanian and other workers in my area was an issue, there always seemed to be a fundamental problem in the supply of skilled tutors. Perhaps it was a blockage and the Comptroller and Auditor General or our guests might refer to it in future reports. Was this the case? Safe Pass was a necessary programme for a large construction industry, but ours will become smaller. Was the programme kosher and will we not need to examine it in future?

If the worst comes to pass in 2009, some 300,000 people may be unemployed within a number of months. Is the organisation on full alert and bringing forward issues, such as the matter of apprentices? We are all plagued with the question of what an apprentice is to do when he or she loses a sponsor. Previously, the Government introduced programmes. If the situation turns out to be as bad as possible and we must address circumstances in which more than 300,000 people are unemployed, is FÁS on red alert and ready with new programmes or approaches to try to keep our people working? In particular, young people who have never been unemployed and are well educated, partly due to FÁS, believe they are in dire straits. My questions are on Safe Pass and the unemployment disaster into which we might be facing.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We developed the Safe Pass programme in-house, but we decided not to deliver all of it ourselves because we did not have the necessary resources. A number of private providers entered the scene. By and large, they delivered well, but there were some instances in which the performance was less than expected. When we could do something about it, we took the provider off the register. The programme ran reasonably well and we put——

Did FÁS believe there was a cartel?

Mr. Rody Molloy

I was not aware of one. Companies could deliver the programme themselves or via external providers. Given that we also provided Safe Pass training, there were a substantial number of options.

Did it run well?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It ran reasonably well.

What did Mr. Spollen say in his report?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Mr. Spollen's report was on a specific company with which we had issues and that was subsequently removed from our register of trainers. In his final analysis, he complimented the way in which we handled the issue after it was brought to our attention.

Could the committee be supplied with a copy of the report?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Certainly.

It showed 30 irregularities.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot remember the figure, but Mr. Spollen complimented the organisation on our handling of the issue.

He found 30 irregularities.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The Chairman is more familiar with it than I am.

Mr. Molloy should not be dismissive. I am asking a question.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I do not know the answer. I cannot remember. It was four or five years ago.

In 2003.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I cannot remember the details.

Mr. Molloy was the director general, but he cannot remember the 30 irregularities identified by Mr. Spollen.

Mr. Rody Molloy

They were corrected and he complimented us on our handling of the matter.

Could Mr. Molloy supply the committee with copies?

Mr. Rody Molloy

It would not be a problem.

Can our guests break down the €5.7 million in the accounts for travel and subsistence?

Mr. Rody Molloy

Not off the top of my head, but I can supply a full breakdown of expenditure and produce it for the committee. It would not be an issue.

Mr. Donal Sands

We capture travel and subsistence as one entity. It refers to staff travel and subsistence in the discharge of their duties in the organisation, employment service, training service, community services and so on.

Mr. Rody Molloy

Deputy Broughan raised the issue of the organisation's readiness in the context of what is happening. We have been working extremely hard in recent months to try to anticipate what would happen not only with regard to apprentices but also with regard to the entire issue. We had a series of direct interactions with the Department and the Tánaiste on appropriate responses.

I have also had meetings with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs on issues with regard to the live register. We have agreed with the Department of Social and Family Affairs that people will be referred to us after three months on the live register rather than six months. We have a specific pilot programme for early school leavers or young people between 18 and 21 years of age so they are not left on the live register if we can avoid it. This raises resource issues which must be addressed. However, we are doing everything we can to have ready responses for the people who may suffer unemployment in the coming months.

We feel we have a specific responsibility for apprentices who have not come through the system. We will do everything we can to ensure they obtain their card to state they are a qualified plumber or carpenter.

We shall wrap up at this stage. I thank Mr. Molloy and his staff and the departmental officials for their attendance and their efforts to answer difficult questions. We have a job to do and they have a job to do. Unfortunately, the absence of officials from the Department of Finance has hindered us in our efforts to obtain real answers on procurement issues. The committee will review the evidence given and we may require another session to deal with unfinished business such as the Spollen report, skills programme, procurement policies and other issues raised by Deputies. If the witnesses provide us with answers to the questions which have been left unanswered we will assess the situation. I would like the witnesses to make themselves available to meet us again soon.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to be here. Given the nature of what we discussed it was inevitable that it got a little heated at times. We are conscious of what went wrong and of the need to ensure it does not happen again. We will go through the transcript of the proceedings, identify where we have made commitments to make further material available and do so as soon as possible. Needless to say, we are at the committee's disposal.

We are anxious to proceed with this as quickly as possible and not let the matter drag on indefinitely. We hope to receive answers from Mr. Molloy as quickly as possible. We would like to set a target of meeting again in two or three weeks.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We shall do our best to meet the committee at a time that suits it.

I am also conscious of the fact that the Tánaiste made a request to Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out his examination and matters will be in limbo until such time as our proceedings have been completed and we issue a report. We should get on with the business as quickly as possible.

Mr. Rody Molloy

The worst place for us is limbo.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We have a serious job to do and too much of our time has been diverted into media questions.

I am not interested in media questions.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I understand that but it is a reality for us.

We are interested in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Rody Molloy

I understand that and the quicker we get out of this limbo the better for all of us and the sooner we can return to doing our full-time job.

I thank Mr. Molloy. I forgot to ask Mr. Buckley for his reaction to what he observed during the meeting.

Mr. John Buckley

I shall reserve my comments until after the next meeting when we consider the lessons to be learned at division level in the organisation and the system in general with regard to this episode.

Deputy Shortall asked whether the report extended back to 2000. It does because the segment on Jobs Ireland goes back to 2000. This confirms what the Director General stated. I wish to clarify this point and ensure we get it right.

I know members will have views on what avenues we should explore. I wish to put everyone on notice that we will deal with the matter of general procurement and compliance with Department of Finance guidelines. I have an interest in speaking about the services to business section, the Spollen report and we will also require information on travel and subsistence. I am sure members will raise other issues.

The capital expenditure aspect.

Mr. Rody Molloy

We will go through the transcript to identify all of the issues. If members wishes to raise other issues they should let us know and we will try to include them.

We will not note the Comptroller and Auditor General's report until such time as we meet again. I thank the witnesses for their attendance and responses and the members for the great effort that went into preparing for this session.

The agenda for next week's meeting is the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report No. 10 covering the Arts Council accounts 2006, the Abbey Theatre and the National Library and the meeting will be attended by appropriate representation from the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism. Do members wish to raise any other matters?

Unfortunately, I missed the early part of the meeting because of the late night sitting of the Dáil. Is the Comptroller and Auditor General in a position to examine the deal between the French company JC Decaux and Dublin City Council with regard to advertising boards in Dublin city? It seems an extraordinary deal and I intended to write to the Chairman and the Comptroller and Auditor General with regard to it but I will take this opportunity to raise it.

My first instinct is that it is outside our terms of reference.

Mr. John Buckley

The Chairman is right. Local government does not come within our remit, so I do not think we can examine any contract engaged in by local government.

Even though the value is hundreds of millions of euro?

Perhaps we can discuss the pros and cons next week.

I shall write to the Chairman and the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for their input.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 9 October 2008.
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