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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 23 Oct 2008

Chapter 7 — Beaumont Hospital.

Mr. Liam Duffy (Chief Executive Officer, Beaumont Hospital) called and examined.

We are considering Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: General Matters Arising on Audits of Non-Commercial State Sponsored Bodies, chapter 7 — Beaumont Hospital, and chapter 5 — Irish Blood Transfusion Service: the consolidated financial statements for Beaumont Hospital board 2006 and Beaumont Hospital Car Park Company Limited, report and financial statements 2006, and the Irish Blood Transfusion Service board, financial statements 2006. We will commence with chapter 7 — Beaumont Hospital, consolidated financial statements for Beaumont Hospital board 2006 and Beaumont Hospital Car Park Company Limited.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members' and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; to produce or send documents to the committee; to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative; to make a written and oral submission; to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee.

Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Liam Duffy, chief executive officer, Beaumont Hospital. I invite Mr. Duffy to introduce his colleagues.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I am accompanied by Mr. James Rogan, head of internal audit, and Mr. Gus Mulligan, our financial controller. I am also accompanied by executives from the HSE and from the Department of Finance.

Will the HSE officials introduce themselves?

Mr. Fran Thompson

I am Fran Thompson, acting head of ICT in the HSE, and I am accompanied by Mr. Seamus Butler, ICT.

Thank you. Who is representing the Department of Finance?

Mr. Tim Duggan

I am Mr. Tim Duggan, principal officer, and I am accompanied by Mr. Billy Noone, assistant principal officer dealing with procurement, and Mr. Michael McCarthy, assistant principal officer dealing with IT sanction.

Thank you. I invite Mr. Buckley to introduce chapter 7 of Special Report No. 10.

Mr. John Buckley

Approximately 1,200 staff need to access computer services in the course of their work at Beaumont Hospital. The report deals with three main issues: shortcomings in the hospital's computer systems — in 2002 the hospital replaced its proprietary software with open source software, only to reverse the decision four years later; non-effective spending due to the abandonment of the development of a patient administration system; and the leasing of computer equipment without formal authority from the appropriate authorities within the hospital.

With regard to the first issue, a family of computer products using open source software was introduced in 2002. There was considerable user dissatisfaction with these systems. Some staff began to revert to using the older proprietary software and ultimately the hospital was forced to abandon its use of the systems and adopt an alternative solution. The financial controller has informed my office that the direct cost of moving back to the proprietary systems was between €80,000 and €100,000.

On the second issue, in 2006 a product designed to help the IT department to develop a new patient administration system was purchased. However, the plans to develop the system have been abandoned and the outlay on the product was €600,000 approximately. The hospital continues to use its old patient administration system.

On the third issue, in a further set of transactions lease contracts totalling €1.4 million were entered into. The contracts had not been approved by an IT steering committee which the hospital had set up in May 2006 to bring some order to the management of the IT function. On becoming aware of the lack of internal authorisation, the hospital sought to repudiate the contracts but it has informed me that it was not able to do so because the contract as signed contained a clause under which the hospital had waived any right to withhold payments. Notwithstanding its attempt to repudiate the contract, Beaumont Hospital maintains that it will get value from approximately €1 million of the leasing outlay.

From the financial viewpoint, taking all of the above transactions together, there was an outlay of just under €2 million. The hospital has informed me that the position in regard to this is as follows. No value has been received for €311,000 worth of purchases. The hospital has arranged to transfer material purchased for €137,000 to the HSE. Refunds of €295,000 have been received from the supplier. The hospital assures us that value will be secured for the remaining €1.25 million spend.

Turning to control and management of IT, a factor that contributed to the situation was that there were considerable deficiencies in the way that procurement of the IT function was overseen. First, there were no expenditure limits for procurement transactions by the function. There was only an overall annual budget which was approximately €3.6 million in 2006. Up to mid-2006, while plans for the work of the IT department were discussed from time to time, there was no mechanism to oversee the implementation of those plans. Within the hospital there was considerable disagreement around the IT strategy that should be followed. Ultimately, an agreed strategy only emerged in 2007.

The lack of budgetary control and the failure to set clear strategic direction for the IT service meant there was a lack of proper engagement within the hospital on how the business needs of the hospital could be supported by IT. This type of drift led de facto to decision making actually passing to the IT department.

Turning briefly to the accounts for 2006, the hospital received a spending envelope of €249.5 million from the HSE. It stayed within this allocation, recording a surplus of just under €1 million for the year. The chief executive officer will be able to update the committee on anything further.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I thank the Chairman for this opportunity to give an account of my stewardship of Beaumont Hospital as its chief executive and to address some of the issues in which I know the committee has a particular interest, including the references to Beaumont's IT department in chapter 7 of special report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

It important in terms of public confidence and staff morale that the excellent work done at this hospital be acknowledged. We are one of the largest acute teaching hospitals in the country, with more than 3,000 staff. In 2007, we admitted 38,000 day cases and 22,000 in-patients and we used 236,000 bed days. On top of this, we had approximately 27,000 new outpatient appointments and 109,000 return visits. We saw more than 46,000 people in our emergency department and provided 31,000 dialysis treatments.

It is noteworthy that there have been considerable improvements in a wide range of areas. As far as I am concerned, our task is to recognise where deficiencies or shortcomings exist and to put in place systems and processes to resolve them.

As a management team we are conscious of our obligation to ensure that scarce, expensive resources are used effectively and efficiently in the interests of patients. My aim, as chief executive, is to ensure that this is achieved, which is why two years ago I embarked with my team on a major hospital-wide transformation programme. We are half way through this programme now, which is breaking down traditional barriers between staff, eliminating bureaucracy and ensuring much greater accountability. Crucially, it is designed to ensure that decisions are taken where they should be — as close as possible to the point of service delivery to patients.

This is a radical programme of change and it is already making a difference for patients. For example, in our outpatients department, which is one of the busiest areas of the hospital, we have extended the working day. We now provide three sessions a day where we used to provide two, providing approximately a third more appointments using the same physical space, which is helping to reduce waiting times. These clinics have also been reorganised to improve co-ordination of services which may be required, such as x-rays or blood tests. We have also introduced an appointment system to support the work. The net effect of this approach is a reduction in the average waiting times for most appointments, significantly fewer delays for patients when they attend their clinics and better value for money for the taxpayer. In the first eight months of this year we have seen an additional 2,000 new patients, which is approximately a 20% increase over the previous year.

In our emergency department, we have successfully undertaken a range of initiatives and process improvements to shorten waiting times and have opened a 12-bed unit to provide greater comfort for patients awaiting admission to the wards. We recognise that there are still often problems of overcrowding and I am not trying to underplay these problems. It should also be recognised, however, that we are certainly doing what we can to address this issue. We have shortened waiting times for patients quite considerably. It is rare now for a patient to wait longer than 24 hours for admission and we are working hard to reduce this to a maximum wait of 12 hours within the next year and ultimately down to six hours.

Hygiene standards are also an area of the highest priority for the hospital. Following the first national hygiene audit we accepted that we had a great deal of work to do and we have done it. In the second audit, we were one of the top five hospitals audited in the country and were just two percentage points away from the highest award. Since then we have constantly improved hygiene, based on our regular internal audit assessments. The challenge for us is to ensure continual improvement.

Hygiene is an important aspect of the multifaceted problem of hospital infections. Other aspects include the appropriate use of antibiotics, moving people out of the hospital as soon as the acute phase of their treatment is completed, and the facility to isolate patients. We are actively addressing all these areas to the very best of our ability. It represents a challenge for us, but it is one that will be helped by the provision of a further 28 single rooms, which will come on stream next year.

One of the significant causes of delays in the hospital is waiting times for diagnostic services. A second MRI scanner has been installed and is coming on stream. A new CT scanner is being installed in St. Joseph's Hospital, a unit which has helped to increase our overall capacity. We took over the management of that about four years ago.

Beaumont has significant specialist expertise in several areas. These include neurosurgery, renal transplantation and cochlear implantation — all national services provided by Beaumont. Our new symptomatic breast cancer service is developing rapidly, with the transfer of services from Connolly Hospital and Drogheda helping to ensure much faster access to this vital service. In fact, our expertise in the field of oncology has been acknowledged in our recent selection as one of the eight centres of excellence now being developed under the national cancer control programme.

I would also like the committee to be aware that we have a strong value-for-money programme under way in Beaumont, which harnesses the in-depth knowledge that staff have about where it is possible to achieve cost savings without adverse impact on patient services. This covers everything from staffing levels, overtime and consumables to increased use of generic drugs, where appropriate clinically.

In short, we have recognised in Beaumont that we have two options: we can be part of the problem in respect of Ireland's health care needs, or we can be part of the solution. We have chosen the latter. We have shown leadership and determination and when problems arise we address them. More and more, we are working as a unified team that puts patient needs at the centre of everything we do. That is one of the reasons I am disappointed to be here today to discuss with this committee the specific issues concerning IT commitments. This is an issue we brought to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It involved the unauthorised creation of financial leases by a member of our staff, which committed us to payments in respect of IT contracts for hardware and software. Our management systems identified the problem and we acted swiftly and decisively. I assure the committee that all the issues raised in chapter 7 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report have been appropriately and comprehensively addressed by the hospital.

Before I took responsibility as CEO, I was aware that there were concerns regarding the direction of the IT strategy in the hospital. When I took my position, I took steps to ensure that the hospital would have a robust IT system that would support the activities of all departments. I quickly formed the opinion that we needed to change course on our desktop software and we successfully moved to an industry-standard solution at minimal cost in relative terms.

As the report before the committee from the Comptroller and Auditor General shows, I initiated several reviews. I initiated an internal audit review of IT spending in 2005 and tightened controls on the discretionary authorisation powers of senior executives with budgets.

Having undertaken a root-and-branch review of IT and developed a strategy for its development, I am now confident that our services will meet our needs in a cost-effective and efficient manner. The problem that arose here will not happen again and we have put additional processes in place to strengthen controls and ensure much broader transparency and checks throughout the hospital, not just in IT.

In his report, the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the proposed development of a patient administration system. The vendor, Beaumont Hospital and the Health Service Executive are engaged in discussions with a view to ensuring that value for money is obtained by the public health service in respect of this expenditure. There is mutual intent to realise value for the public health service for this amount and I expect to be in a position to provide the Comptroller and Auditor General with further details of this agreement in the near future.

As regards the equipment and software finance leases, I confirm that negotiations between the hospital and the provider resulted in the recoupment by the hospital of €195,000 against software withdrawn, plus a goodwill payment of €100,000. This resulted in no loss to the hospital.

I will be more than happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

May we publish Mr. Duffy's statement?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

I invite Deputy Pádraic McCormack to open the questioning.

The net expenditure in 2006 was €288 million, 69% of which was pay costs. In other words, pay costs rose by 9.4% to €191 million — 69% of gross current expenditure for the year. How does that compare with other hospitals? It seems that an extraordinary percentage of the hospital's budget is going into pay. In continental hospitals, pay represents less than 40% of overall expenditure, yet Beaumont's is at almost 70%. How did that come about? I note in Mr. Duffy's report that the hospital has 3,000 staff, but what is the staff level now? Is 3,000 the current staff level or was it the level in 2006?

Mr. Liam Duffy

As regards the staff level in 2006, we had approved 3,069 posts. Since then, we have increased the staffing level by about 50 posts, which are consultants and nursing staff. As regards the figure of 70%, pay costs for most Irish hospitals are in the region of 70% of total spend.

That compares unfavourably with hospitals in other countries where staff costs amount to less than 40%. How many of the staff at Beaumont are administrative and how many are front line?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Of the 3,000 staff, we have 100 administrative staff in the finance, HR, IT and procurement areas. We have about 400 secretarial staff supporting clinicians in outpatients and at ward level. The balance is frontline staff.

It seems an extraordinarily high figure that 70% of the budget is for staff.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I am not sure with which jurisdictions the Deputy is comparing us but in the UK environment, our staffing levels are comparable.

I do not think so but we will check that.

In 2006, according to Chapter 7 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the hospital had IT expenditure of €1.5 million, which breached the hospital's controls. This expenditure was not authorised by the IT steering committee. How did that happen? Who was responsible for it? Was any action taken against whoever was responsible?

Mr. Liam Duffy

A senior member of staff engaged in negotiations with a company and purchased the software and hardware outside approval from the hospital management team or the IT steering group. When I discovered what had occurred, I put the official on administrative leave and undertook a disciplinary——

Will Mr. Duffy repeat that? What did he do?

Mr. Liam Duffy

I put the official involved on administrative leave.

Was that unpaid or paid leave?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It was paid leave. That is the process in place. One puts somebody on administrative leave pending investigation. We had the review and the employee no longer works in the organisation.

What was the outcome of the investigation?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The investigation was in two parts. One was in relation to the breach of hospital policy. The outcome was that the employee no longer works in the organisation.

It seems there was no control whatsoever. In 2006 people thought money would never run out but we now know it has. It seems there was little or no control over expenditure and decisions made about IT equipment. Was this decision taken by an individual or a committee?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It was taken by an individual.

It seems extraordinary that was allowed to happen and that the staff did not use the equipment and it had to be abandoned.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The software bought did not meet the needs of the organisation. I had to make a decision at that time. We tried to recoup the moneys from the company but contracts had been entered into on behalf of the hospital by——

Why was there not some discussion with the people who would be using this equipment to see if it was compatible with what they were using? When that stage was reached, the whole thing was abandoned.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The strategy undertaken by the executive was inappropriate.

No action has yet been taken?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Action has been taken.

Will Mr. Duffy spell out the action taken?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Is that in relation to the employee?

In relation to the person who made this decision which put €1.5 million at risk.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I can inform the committee that the employee no longer works in the hospital.

Does the employee work in the health service?

Mr. Liam Duffy

No.

What were the terms of the termination?

Mr. Liam Duffy

I am not in a position to disclose that to the committee. They are confidential.

I do not accept that. The committee is entitled to know the broad terms of the settlement.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The employee resigned their position at the hospital.

On a pension or——

Mr. Liam Duffy

No.

I wish to ask about the car parking situation. What is the hospital's tax liability? Beaumont Hospital transferred the site to Beaumont Car park Company in 1998 with the intention that when developed, the site would transfer back to the hospital. Due to an oversight, this will not happen for a further five years. There is now a claim from Revenue against the income there. If it was in the ownership of the hospital, it would not be liable. Will the hospital now be liable for the liabilities to the Revenue?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Mr. Gus Mulligan will deal with that question.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

With regard to the question of taxation, the liability to tax arose from the fact that the specific company which was set up to implement the car park earned the income, which was never intended. It had, in fact, been intended that the company would be liquidated and that any income earned would belong to the hospital. It has been exposed to a potential liability of €762,000. The assessment we received was €969,000 and if it was brought up to 2003 prices, it would probably be €1.2 million. However, the point at issue between ourselves and Revenue is that it is not allowing for fines imposed on the hospital amounting to €1.8 million. If the fines are allowed — we confidently expect that at least will happen — it would bring back the liability to €762,000.

However, we have put the solicitor, who gave an undertaking at the time to ensure the special purpose company was liquidated, on notice that he will be liable for the tax. We intend to pursue that against the solicitor should that arise. We intend to protect the hospital against that but we have made a provision in the accounts on the grounds that it would be prudent to do so.

I note from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that a further assessment is expected on 20 November 2008.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes. That is the additional assessment to which I referred that would bring it up to €1.2 million in total for the period.

What has the hospital incurred in legal fees in dealing with this matter so far? What further legal fees will it be liable for if it continues with its appeals against this?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

I do not have that figure with me but I can provide it to the Deputy.

Who will make the decision to proceed with legal proceedings rather than seek a settlement?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We have a general position on that which is that we will exhaust our rights under the appeal procedures. We would be extremely reluctant to incur legal fees going up against the Revenue. I think the Comptroller and Auditor General would look unfavourably on that. The reality is that we will exhaust our remedies in the appeal process which will not cost us very much money. At that stage, we will probably have exhausted all our remedies.

Why was there a lapse of five years?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

A problem arose. In the meantime, a charge had been granted to a bank in relation to the sinking fund which had been set up. Unwinding that took an enormous amount of work and finally a new set of agreements. Had the sinking fund charge not existed, we could have wound up the company because we knew after a couple of years that had to be done. We finally made arrangements which protected the company in 2003, so that no further liabilities would arise. There were a number of items, including the issuing of a charge to the bank on the sinking fund and the winding up of the company, on which it was not particularly well advised at the time. Fundamentally, that is what complicated the matter.

Who was supposed to be responsible for the transfer back to the hospital and neglected his or her duty in the period from 1998 to 2003?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The solicitor undertook to be responsible.

Has action been taken against anybody for this further unnecessary liability the hospital now faces?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes. The solicitor has been put on notice.

Is Mr. Mulligan free to tell me what that is?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We would hold the solicitor liable for all of the tax liability.

Will the hospital get that from him or her?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The solicitor is taking the matter seriously in the sense that the solicitor is helping to construct a defence against it, but ultimately, we have put the solicitor on notice. If the liability matures, we will set out to recover the amount from the solicitor because the solicitor gave an explicit undertaking to the Department of Health and Children at the time.

Is the solicitor still the hospital's solicitor?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Not in corporate legal matters. The solicitor still does some work for us on debt collection.

It is an extraordinary situation, from which I will move on.

Is the solicitor still acting on the hospital's behalf?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Not in relation to corporate advice. He does some work for us on debt collection.

Sending out standard letters and charging so much per letter——

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes.

That is easy money, is it not?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Probably.

It is strange.

How much of the 2006 software budget of €3.6 million was lost as a result of the ordering of the IT equipment which was not used?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

I am not sure what the reference is.

In 2006 the IT budget was €3.6 million. How much of that €3.6 million was lost as a result of the ordering of IT equipment which was subsequently not used?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

None of the €3.6 million was lost, but we ended up with an additional cost of €1.5 million.

For what was the sum of €3.6 million used?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It was used to meet standard IT costs in running the IT system in the hospital. It does not include any lost expenditure.

Therefore, expenditure on IT was approximately €5 million.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes. The charge to the accounts was €5.1 million in 2006.

Was that not an extraordinary amount? Did it not sound an alarm, lead to somebody to ask, "Where are we going with this expenditure?" The hospital already had a system which was working satisfactorily.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We review budgets with managers every one or two months. In this case we had had the discussion about the system and the budget with the IT manager and there was no indication that we would overspend. It was not until the contracts came to light that we found we had to make provision in the accounts.

Who signed the document to waive the right not to proceed with the contract?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The official who entered into the agreements.

Is that the same official?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes.

In June 2006 leases were entered into at a cost of €1.246 million to purchase hardware and software. Those contracts were not approved by the IT steering committee. The acquiring of IT equipment under finance lease arrangements is not permitted by the hospital. How did this happen?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

I am sorry; will the Deputy repeat the question, please?

In 2006 leases were entered into at a cost of €1.246 million to purchase hardware and software. I am asking about these contracts which were not approved by the IT steering committee. The acquiring of IT equipment under finance lease arrangements is not permitted by the hospital.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The acquisition of IT equipment under leases is forbidden, unless one has explicit approval from the Department of Finance under the account rules for voluntary hospitals. This is a rule by which we and the voluntary hospitals all live. In this case, the official did not reveal to the hospital that he was entering into the contracts. The hospital only became aware of them when they had been signed by the official.

It seems like a runaway train. There seems to be no control over anybody in ordering and acquiring IT equipment which has now landed this liability on the hospital. It seems extraordinary that these matters were allowed to proceed, given the large sums involved.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We had undertaken audits in the IT department and they were compliant with the hospital regulations in 2004 and 2005. In 2006 an official entered into arrangements with companies without management approval, but as he was an official of the hospital, the contracts had to be fulfilled — we had no choice in doing so. What I have done since is introduce limits to the amounts on which people can sign off. Only senior executives can sign off on costs up to €50,000. All IT expenditure over €5,000 is controlled by the director of finance. What happened was outside the management team and hospital processes. An executive made the decision to issue the contracts. The person's signature was the only one on the lease.

Surely this lone ranger had a boss on the management team.

Mr. Liam Duffy

He was on the management team.

I presume the hospital has a management team meeting every Monday or Tuesday morning.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

Surely there is a report from each member of the management team on his or her activities and how he or she is dealing with his or her budgets.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

Did he submit a report to the management team and were there any alarm bells ringing?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The first indication was when the invoices were submitted for payment and our finance department picked up on the fact that they were coming in from the company involved. At that stage we intervened.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

What IT system is now being used? Is it the pre-2006 system?

Mr. Liam Duffy

There are a number of systems in place. In terms of the desktop system, we went back to using a system we had used prior to 2002. We put the system out to tender.

That was what the hospital had used before.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We tested the market and at the time——

What I cannot understand is that if something was not broken, why did they have to fix it. Why did somebody have to go off and order new equipment without consulting the staff who were using it? It seems extraordinary. I will not ask any more questions. If something is not broken in my office, I do not replace it.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The system we were replacing was broken. When I took over as CEO, one of the big issues staff raised with me was the quality of IT, particularly the desktop strategy. I had a review undertaken and it found that 75% of staff were dissatisfied with the system in place, as it was not working. They could not communicate with each other within the hospital. Staff were using money to purchase compatible or similar products that were more efficient. As a result, we ended up with a two-tier system within the organisation. Some people had access to a more flexible system, while others were left with one that was less flexible. I could have lived with it and continued with the spend but we would not have obtained value for money. I made a decision to intervene in order to review what was happening and discover whether we had the best systems in place. The review indicated that such systems were not in place. From that point, we set about developing a hospital strategy. The management team made a decision to review what was happening. It is much easier to leave matters as they stand than it is to change them. However, I made a decision to change.

Is Mr. Rogan of the view that there was nothing wrong with what happened?

Mr. Liam Duffy

If I could come in there, I am appalled by what happened. Public moneys were used which could have been employed for other purposes, such as the delivery of health care to patients. In addition, we could have used them to improve the IT systems that were already in place. There is no way I could stand over what happened or over any misspending of public moneys. I am adamant that any expenditure should provide general value for money for the hospital, its staff and its patients.

Which did not happen.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Which did not happen in this case. I do not deny that.

This all happened prior to the establishment of the HSE when Beaumont was a constituent hospital of the then Eastern Health Board.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Beaumont is a voluntary hospital which has its own board. It is funded through the HSE and abides by the latter's policies.

Therefore, during the period in question it was directly funded by the Department of Health and Children.

Mr. Liam Duffy

By the Department of Health and Children through the HSE.

Was there ever an overall IT policy in respect of acute hospitals or did hospitals act individually in respect of procurement, designing IT systems, etc.? Did, for example, Beaumont Hospital and St. Vincent's Hospital in Dublin and Mercy University Hospital and South Infirmary Hospital in Cork do their own thing or was anyone in charge nationally?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The HSE was developing a national strategy around IT.

The period to which we are referring predates the establishment of the HSE.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The HSE was established in 2005 and this happened after that date. The HSE was developing a strategy but our strategy at Beaumont ran contrary to this.

What was Beaumont's strategy?

Mr. Liam Duffy

My view was that we should be part of a national strategy and that there should be shared systems. Why reinvent the wheel? The reason the HSE replaced the 11 health boards was in order that a standardised approach would be taken across the country. The position with the voluntary hospitals should be similar. Obviously, there are systems which could be bought which could then be modified. However, Ireland is small and IT systems in use throughout the country should be compatible. The HSE is developing the strategy such that if we buy a lab system it can be installed in Beaumont, Cork, Galway or wherever. The systems should be compatible and capable of communicating with each other. We should not have stand-alone IT systems that develop outside the national strategy.

Mr. Duffy stated that the HSE is developing the strategy. Is it not yet in place?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The HSE has a strategy and Beaumont's strategy is linked into that.

They are linked.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely.

This is not specific to Beaumont, but there is a trend emerging at our meetings. Every week representatives or officials from different agencies — such as the HSE — come before the committee and the main aspect that emerges relates to a trend towards breakdowns in procurement procedures that were already in place.

The individual who was suspended——

Mr. Liam Duffy

No longer works for the organisation.

Mr. Duffy indicated in his opening statement that an officer of the hospital was placed on administrative leave and that an investigation was proceeding.

Mr. Liam Duffy

He has since left the organisation.

Was there any connection between that person and the IT supplier?

Mr. Liam Duffy

We found none during our investigations.

It must be placed on record that those at Beaumont identified some of these issues and held their hands up in respect of them. Will Mr. Duffy briefly outline the changes in the hospital's IT management oversight procedures? Are there any new systems which the hospital is in the process of introducing? If so, what is the current position in respect of them? How have the hospitals processes been changed to ensure that there will not be a recurrence of what took place?

Mr. Liam Duffy

We appointed an interim IT manager when this occurred. We also reinforced the role of the hospital steering group. We have management structures in place around new projects. If a new project is being developed, there is a process which it must undergo and against which it must be validated. Information must be provided in respect of the business case, the costs involved, the impact on the service, etc. We must also identify whether it links in to our hospital strategy and that of the HSE. Many of our projects are now linked to national projects. For example, we are working with the HSE in respect of our lab systems in the context of the solution the executive is proposing nationally.

One of the biggest difficulties as regards what happened was due to a lack of staff buy-in. Mr. Duffy did not mention this aspect. I am aware that Irish hospitals are not properly benchmarked against each other. I understand Beaumont is benchmarked against some UK hospitals in the context of its accident and emergency data. Beaumont is my local hospital and I am quite familiar with it. Mr. Duffy indicated earlier the improvements that have been made at the hospital. However, we are here to ask questions about the issues that arise as opposed to throwing bouquets across the table at each other.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely.

How do the authorities at Beaumont ensure that they do not buy a system which 75% of its staff will refuse to operate because they are not happy with it?

Mr. Liam Duffy

At the pre-decision stage, staff are involved in the steering group. If we are purchasing a new lab system, staff from the labs are employed on the project team. We also involve people from the wards who are going to be using that system. We select a project manager from within that group of people. Instead of IT driving what is happening, the staff does so. IT becomes a support and enabling mechanism rather than a driver of the hospital's strategy. Responsibility is moved away from IT and the hospital drives the project. The department into which a system is due to be put will design it and decide what best meets its needs.

That is fair enough. Is Mr. Duffy confident in his management team?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely. The position has been transformed.

Is he satisfied that the situation identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's could not recur?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely. Our audit department is also scrutinising everything that happens within IT.

A limit for the signing of cheques of €5,000 has been set.

Mr. Liam Duffy

It is at approval level. Senior executives cannot purchase equipment or whatever with a value greater than €50,000. There are now only six people in this bracket.

The report refers to a figure of €5,000.

Mr. Liam Duffy

That limit relates to the IT department.

So the people in IT cannot order stock or hardware or software with a value greater than €5,000 without the approval of the financial controller.

Mr. James Rogan

There are people in the hospital who have been identified as having authorisation for expenditure by departments. These are the only individuals who can authorise expenditure of any kind. They all have certain limits — depending on their grades and positions — within which they must operate. As Mr. Duffy pointed out, senior executives can approve spending of €50,000. They can only delegate spending of €20,000 to those at the next level within their departments and so on down the line.

It is good that there are internal audit systems in place. How often are those systems checked?

Mr. James Rogan

I would check purchasing routinely, at least once a year. It would be part of the audit plan. Non-pay expenditure and pay expenditure are both examined. Some 60% of the budget is spent on pay.

This is an aspect with which I wish to deal. Our experience of dealing with agencies across different sectors is that issues of this nature arise on an annual basis. Good checks and balances may be in place but in certain instances they may fail. If such a failure is only detected by an annual review, it will be too late for action to be taken. I would like to get back to procurement, in particular, in light of what happened previously. Once a year is not good enough.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

There is only one order book for information technology and I have to co-sign 5,000 orders. In practice, I see and sign all IT orders. If there is something I do not understand or I am not happy about or I wonder why we are doing it, I go back to the interim IT manager and ask why we are doing this. We have tight controls on IT.

With regard to the general controls in the hospital, within the accounts payable department with whom the financial accountant works very closely, they are very aware of the sign off. Every day people look at invoices and ask whether they are within the limit. We have very active control over invoice approval. In particular, people are willing to come to us and ask what an invoice is about even when it is a perfectly legitimate one. They query invoices.

That is good. I refer to cross-checking. If the same people undertake the same functions and the same two people sign off various or relevant invoices, what are the day-to-day checks and balances, for instance, in the accounts payable department?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We have the limits. The accounts are reviewed in great detail every month by the financial accountant and me and this works very well. We go through the key spending areas and ask what certain things relate to. We do not look and say it is okay because it is only €20,000. We look beneath the €20,000 to see what it comprises. If there is something we do not understand or seems odd, we query it. Every month, we go through this process to look in great detail at the non-pay spend and it works very well.

I would like to be sure the board and senior management of Beaumont Hospital are confident the committee will not have to examine issues in two years similar to those identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report regarding IT procurement and general expenditure in 2006.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We have all the systems in place from the board down. The board has finance and audit sub-committees and our IT strategy involves reporting to the board. Many financial checks and corporate governance systems are in place as well.

I refer to drugs and medicines. Note 15 in the 2006 accounts states €944,000 worth of drugs and medicines were in stock. What is the carryover year on year? What percentage of drugs and medicines is not used or must be disposed of?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Very little. We use €20 million worth a year. What is in stock at the end of the year——

The sum of €944,000 is a portion of the €20 million.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes. That equates to almost €2 million a month. We held half a month's stock over. The system is rigid and the chief pharmacist is on top of that all the time. It would be extraordinarily rare for us to write off medicine.

I am glad, given the anecdotal evidence reported by the media of excessive purchasing of medicines. Mr. Mulligan is saying that is not an issue at Beaumont Hospital.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It is not and we are sensitive to purchasing on a monthly basis. For instance, if we noticed the purchase of a particular item had increased, we could ask the pharmacist what had happened. We do not have much of that. It is usually very steady. We have big drugs which come through and are used and we can always find explanations. I do not know of any cases.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It is possible with smaller items which are not drugs and which might not be rotated properly at ward level that there would be occasional write-offs, but even with those, we are making sure rotation works in such a way that we do not have write-offs. It is not a problem, although we are continually in charge of it.

Health Service Executive officials have appeared before the committee on a number of occasions and I have raised the issue of facilities for cystic fibrosis sufferers and, in particular, outpatient facilities. I was pleased about the increased funding of up to €3.6 million for the facility in the hospital. Is it on track to open in spring 2009?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The inpatient beds will open in March or April of next year.

Are those in isolation rooms?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes. We are moving the finance, human resources and IT departments out of the main building to make way for the cystic fibrosis facility. That should be in place by the latter part of the year when the new three-storey building for finance, HR and IT is complete.

Will there be 12 inpatient beds?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It depends on the number of patients. The number of beds will vary and it will be between two and 12. The single rooms will be used for CF and isolation purposes and there will be 27 or 28 beds.

What about the outpatient facilities?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Those will be later next year because we are decanting existing facilities to allow them into the building.

I am glad progress is being made but the outpatient CF facility will not open in spring 2009.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Not in spring. An interim building must be created for the departments that are moving and that should be ready in March or April. The area they are in must be refurbished and converted into facilities for CF patients. That will be towards the end of the summer.

What about the inpatient facilities?

Mr. Liam Duffy

They will open in March and the outpatient facility will open later in the year.

I was given incorrect information on that by the HSE. I am delighted progress is being made. Will Mr. Duffy provide the committee with a written update on the breakdown on the facilities and the dates?

Mr. Liam Duffy

I will give the Deputy the timeline.

I have visited the hospital and I spoke to the professors in charge of the CF area. I am delighted the facility is being provided but I would like something definitive on paper in order that we know where we are at.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We are working with CF advocacy groups and consultants. They are all on board and they are involved in the design of the plan and the delivery of the service.

I refer to private and semi-private charges. The sum of €2.5 million in 2006 is unusually low. What monitoring takes place to ensure the public-private balance outlined in the HSE prevails? What is the hospital's case mix? Has Mr. Duffy figures on a consultant basis? Are they available?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes, individually. We meet consultants on a quarterly basis to discuss the activity by specialty. For example, we meet the seven neurosurgeons and examine activity by consultant, the number of patients treated, the number of outpatients seen and the case mix content. We do that on a quarterly basis with all consultant groups.

What are the figures for the public-private mix?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It is 70:30 on average.

That is in breach of the HSE guidelines, which is 20% private.

Mr. Liam Duffy

No. The difficulty is 50% of the population has VHI cover and 70% of patients come through the emergency room. People choose to use the VHI when they arrive. Therefore, out of the 20,000 patients that are admitted to Beaumont——

Is Mr. Duffysaying they are asked whether they are private or public patients when they come to the accident and emergency unit?

Mr. Liam Duffy

They can choose. They are asked if they want to go public or private, but it is a choice. They are not forced to go either way. People who have private insurance have a right to exercise that choice at the point of entry. It is difficult to control the emergency side, because people have accidents and turn up in the emergency room. However, on the elective side we operate mainly on an 80%-20% rule because patients are admitted electively, either through private rooms or through the public outpatients' clinic. We monitor that. We have had occasions where we have had to bring people back in on line.

The HSE has told us that because of legal issues with the common contract, it is unable to supply us with the data on a consultant-by-consultant basis. However, it appears from what Mr. Duffy has said he does not see any legal——

Mr. Liam Duffy

The Chairman asked if I had the data. I have the data. I do not know of any legal impediment to providing it, but perhaps there is. The data is available.

Could we have the data on a consultant-by-consultant basis for recent years?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes, unless there is some legal reason not to provide it.

When did Mr. Duffy take up his position as CEO?

Mr. Liam Duffy

In December 2004.

I wish to pick up where Deputy McCormack left off. When did the issues relating to the new software system come to the attention of senior management, Mr. Duffy himself in particular, and the board?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It was in October 2006.

Mr. Duffy said that the person responsible was put on administrative leave. When did that happen?

Mr. Liam Duffy

In December 2006.

For how long did that person remain on leave?

Mr. Liam Duffy

He remained on administrative leave until approximately one month ago.

What were the circumstances of his leaving?

Mr. Liam Duffy

I discussed that with the Chair earlier and gave a broad outline of the circumstances. The employee no longer works at the hospital.

Was that when I was out of the room?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

Will Mr. Duffy repeat what he told us for the Deputy.

Mr. Liam Duffy

The employee no longer works in the organisation. I was asked whether he was on pension and I said he was not.

Was there any payment involved?

Mr. Liam Duffy

There was a payment agreed and negotiated with an arbitrator, but there is a confidentiality agreement surrounding that.

It is public money that is involved.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I appreciate that, but I am bound by the confidentiality agreement.

We have a problem on an ongoing basis with witnesses coming before the committee and saying they are constrained by legal issues and cannot provide relevant information to the committee. That is unacceptable, even if the information is confidential. We have to make a judgment on whether——

Mr. Liam Duffy

I appreciate that. Perhaps I can take advice and come back to the committee and present the information within the next couple of days.

We got a similar response from FÁS and we are getting it——

Mr. Liam Duffy

We took action, put the employee on administrative leave and had an investigation and went through a disciplinary process. We managed the process, the employee no longer works in the organisation and we have moved our strategy forward.

I get nervous when I hear an employee just left a month before a hearing at an Oireachtas committee.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We only have a month's notice that this inquiry is happening. The timing is entirely coincidental. We have to go through a normal disciplinary process as part of any employee-employer scenario.

There is something strange in a situation where having gone through a disciplinary process, a person ends up getting a payment.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I will revert to the Chair on that, if that is all right.

I accept that Mr. Duffy needs to take advice on the issue, but we want the information, because it is public money we are discussing. Not only is it public money, there are also issues of accountability with regard to how senior management in Beaumont dealt with the situation. We have a right to know the detail of that. I would like Mr. Duffy to come back to us on that.

Mr. Liam Duffy

That is fine.

Did the Department of Finance or the Department of Health and Children sanction the arrangement made?

Mr. Liam Duffy

No, the arrangement was agreed with the hospital board.

Do we have anyone here from the finance side of the Department of Health and Children? No. I would like to hear their opinion of deals such as this.

Mr. Liam Duffy

In fairness, I think they would assume the deal has been done. I am conscious of the circumstances and that there are individuals involved. I must be sensitive to that, but I am conscious of the committee's need to know and will come back to the Chair on the matter.

It is somewhat disturbing that at a time when so many people were demonstrating on the road outside this House about relatively small amounts of money, we see this type of deal being done, but cannot get information on it.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I am not refusing to provide the information. I just need to——

We are uncomfortable with the fact that neither the Department of Health and Children nor the Department of Finance was made aware of it or consulted.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Rather than prolong the argument, I agree to come back to the Chair on the matter.

Can Mr. Duffy explain why it took two years to deal with the problem?

Mr. Liam Duffy

There was an examination of what went on and we had an external review. It took that length of time for due process to take place.

Did the person remain on full pay throughout the two years and then walk away with a payment?

Mr. Liam Duffy

That is the process. We went through due process, as we had to.

Was the Garda notified at any point?

Mr. Liam Duffy

No, because there was no evidence of fraud.

I was somewhat surprised to see at the end of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that the conclusions to the investigation were that the hospital has achieved compliance with tendering regulations, that the steering committee exercises close scrutiny over IT activities and spending and that there is a limit on the sign-off authority of senior managers. Why is it that an organisation established as long as Beaumont Hospital, with a massive public money budget, is only now putting in place standard controls on spending?

Mr. Liam Duffy

There were controls around tendering procedures in place, but there were not specific controls around the authority of individual executives. There was also a trust in the system that people would apply hospital procedures. In this scenario, somebody went outside that process. When we realised what was happening, I put the interventions in place.

Surely they should be standard practice in a big organisation. Why is it only in 2008 that those steps have been put in place?

Mr. Liam Duffy

We put those systems in place in 2006.

It is very hard to understand why they were not in place previously, as they should be standard practice.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We have always had controls and limits on expenditure, but at senior executive level the limit was the budget within which they had to operate. There was, therefore, a good deal of trust. We trusted the senior executives and they had to operate within their budget. Below that we had the standard controls and limits of expenditure. All we have done now is limit the authority of a senior executive member to €50,000, or to €100,000 if it is an associated series of transactions. As the Deputy quite rightly says, they are standard controls. In this case we had not set an upper limit for the senior executive members because they were the policemen of the system.

That seems extraordinary.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We have set those limits now.

After the event, unfortunately. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to a clause in the contract where the hospital waived its right to withhold payments. How did that come about?

Mr Gus Mulligan

There was a contract for software with the vendor and there was a contract for financing. In the finance contract, there was a clause which said that the client waives the right to withhold payment from the financing company on foot of any dispute with the vendor. Essentially, regardless of whether the software worked we did not have the right to withhold payments from the financing company. That was a problem we found ourselves facing. We attempted to withhold payments and we then tried to work through our solicitors to see if we could get some kind of negotiated position but we were unable to do so. Finally, we were threatened with bring sued and we asked a barrister to construct a defence for us. He said we had no defence.

What I am interested in is the oversight of the contract, including its drawing up that included such a clause.

Mr Gus Mulligan

We would not sign that kind of contract. That is the vendor's contract. There was no paperwork signed in Beaumont Hospital. The official signed the vendor's contract documentation. We would never sign that if we were signing it officially in the hospital.

Had the official the authority to sign the contract?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

He did not have the authority to sign it but he had the perceived authority from the point of view of the vendor, in that the vendor could rely on the fact that he was a senior manager of the hospital with the power and authority to enter into these contracts. Part of the legal advice was that we could not repudiate the contract by virtue of the fact that he had broken the internal procedures or had exceeded his authority internally. The vendor was entitled to rely on him as a representative of the hospital.

Mr. Mulligan said earlier that he did not notify the Garda Síochána because there was no fraud involved. How does he know there was no fraud involved?

Mr. Liam Duffy

We had our audit and we had an external forensic examination of activities within the IT department.

Was it therefore a case of incompetence if it was not fraud?

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes, incompetence.

It is very difficult to understand why somebody should be rewarded with a payment.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Without going into detail, it is not necessarily a payment. I am uncomfortable about the perception that we made a payment. Without going into detail I need to take advice because of the circumstances surrounding that, if that is fair. The perception would be that ——

As I said earlier we are meeting this every week.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I will do my best to be open and transparent for the committee.

There is now a perception that one can misbehave and be rewarded for it and we cannot get to the bottom of it because of legal constraints, or so we are told. This is unacceptable to the committee and we must deal with it. I ask Mr. Duffy to take advice and to come back.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I can take advice and I can assure the Chairman that I am not a person to support payments for bad behaviour or inappropriate behaviour.

We appreciate your situation.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I have no tolerance for it whatsoever. This is why I intervened at the outset to try and get a solution to this problem and not to be here in five years' time and still have a similar problem.

The Comptroller and Auditor General also informs us that the hospital's IT expenditure did not take due account of Department of Finance policies on the integration of IT systems in the health service. Could I ask the representatives of the Department of Finance how they police those guidelines and what role they had in the oversight of this issue?

Mr. Tim Duggan

The Department of Finance had no real oversight role with respect to Beaumont Hospital specifically for a number of reasons. First, the open source issue was in 2002 when the decision was made by the staff in Beaumont Hospital. In 2002, no element of the health service was subject to Department of Finance IT expenditure sanction. This only happened in 2005 when the HSE was established and was funded through a Vote. With regard to the other matters that happened in 2005 and 2006, they were never brought by the HSE to the Department of Finance for sanction and consequently we never had sight of them and were not aware of them. Therefore, there was no Department of Finance sanction for any of these things.

In terms of how we police the guidelines, the public service is incredibly large and therefore it is not possible for a small group of people in the Department of Finance to police in detail every single project or every single acquisition in IT or any other area and consequently we have to rely on the systems and levers that exist throughout the entire system. We have put in place a range of guidelines, processes, procedures with which all public bodies are required to comply. It is the function of local managements and maybe parent Departments to ensure that those processes and procedures are complied with and that the appropriate sanctioning arrangements that we have put in place are also complied with, including, if they are required, to bring specific matters to us for detailed sanction consideration.

I am asking about the specific policy on the integration of IT systems in the health service. When was that policy drawn up?

Mr. Tim Duggan

When the HSE was established towards the beginning of 2005, it took a little while for the HSE to put an arrangement in place for dealing with the management of IT. Once it did that we were able to liaise with that management arrangement. We entered into a series of discussions with them, essentially to educate them on how Department of Finance IT sanctioning processes operated because this was new to them. We explained the types of structures and processes they would need to put in place in order to deal with that sanctioning arrangement. In September 2005 a comprehensive letter was sent to the then acting national director of IT in the HSE setting out exactly how the sanctioning arrangement would work and exactly the types of arrangements which the HSE would have to put in place, including details on exactly the types of technical principles it would need to comply with. This included what one expects to be included, such as appropriate steering committees, project boards, a head of IT, appropriate sanctioning arrangements and limit arrangements and an amount of information on what we call technical architecture and how that should be structured in the HSE.

A key principle of this arrangement was the term, "singularity". We did not want multitudes of the same thing happening all over the place so one of the key principles outlined to the then acting national director of IT was that we wanted to see this move towards singularity in the HSE. This has been happening over time. There is a single patient administration system being rolled out on a phased basis by the HSE. I understand it is being rolled out in about 30 locations and this is continuing.

The Department outlined the new policy and discussed it in detail with the HSE which in turn dealt with the different agencies in the health sector.

Mr. Tim Duggan

That is the norm.

I invite the HSE to speak about that policy which is decided by the Department of Finance. What specific communication did the HSE have with Beaumont Hospital on that policy?

I ask Mr. Thompson, the acting head of ICT, to answer that question.

Mr. Fran Thompson

The HSE would have during 2006 written to all the voluntary hospitals informing them of our discussions with the Department of Health and Children, informing them of the letter that was there and would have engaged with those hospitals sometimes on a one-to-one basis and sometimes just through writing, advising them of our responsibilities in the HSE and through the Vote, their responsibilities to us.

When did the HSE first become aware of issues in Beaumont Hospital?

Mr. Fran Thompson

I cannot give the exact date, but I think it would have been late 2007 or very early 2008. I do not think we were aware before that. I ask Mr. Duffy to verify that. I am not aware that we were aware.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I would have met the previous acting director of IT and discussed the issues.

Mr. Fran Thompson

Was that in 2007?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It was in 2006. It was in relation to the open source strategy and later on then in 2007.

Was the meeting later in 2007 to address the patient administration system?

Mr. Liam Duffy

We have ongoing interaction with the HSE around the patient administration system — around the new systems. In relation to the events that happened in 2006, we would have made the HSE aware of it. I think the notification on the change in Department of Finance policy came to us towards the end of 2006 from the HSE to the voluntary hospitals.

May I ask Mr. Thompson his views on the level of compliance with that new policy across the health sector generally?

Mr. Fran Thompson

It has greatly improved. At the start there were difficulties. For the HSE and the voluntary hospitals there were difficulties in understanding what that was. It was new to us. We have now put in place rigorous processes in order to ensure the policy is rigorously applied in that we have an approval process right throughout the whole of the HSE and the voluntary hospitals. All new projects have to be approved by the business, by the ICT steering group within the HSE, prior to them going for approval under the 16/97 regulations of the Department of Health and Children, and the Department of Finance.

That covers all projects to what value?

Mr. Fran Thompson

All projects.

Is that all IT projects?

Mr. Fran Thompson

All IT projects. Yes.

Is Mr. Thompson aware of any other issues such as the one at Beaumont in any other acute public or voluntary hospitals? If so, what is the extent of the problem?

Mr. Fran Thompson

As of today, I am aware of none.

Mr. Thompson came here at short notice and I thank him for his presence.

I welcome Mr. Duffy and his colleagues. I agree with one comment in his opening statement. He said he was disappointed to be here today to discuss the specific IT issues. I sympathise with him and I understand his position. Based on the figures before us, in the year under review Beaumont Hospital had a current account of €288 million and a capital account of €16 million, which is considerably more than €300 million. How much money is at issue or potentially a problem regarding this IT project?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The gross amount was €448,000 and the potential to transfer some software, mentioned in the report, would have reduced it to €311,000. We have now got agreement from the vendor. We decided we would not pursue that option of transferring software to the HSE. We then got agreement from the vendor under which the vendor would seek to make value available to other parts of the health system. If it can be accomplished within the rules we could actually see the health service getting full value for all of the system.

Whether it is €300,000 or €400,000, it is very important and there are serious issues involved. We can all say they are matters of principle, which is true. However, regardless of how one considers the level of figure involved, I am criticising how we, as the Committee of Public Accounts, are going about our business rather than the witnesses' presence here today.

As a proportion of what Beaumont Hospital spent last year, the maximum amount involved here is 0.1%, which is €1 out of every €1,000. When inviting witnesses to appear before the committee in future, I would like to discuss the €999 out of €1,000 rather than having special reports with in-depth analysis about one staff member who is no longer here. Regardless of how the figures are added up, it is 0.1% of the hospital's budget. I know mistakes were made and I am not sliding over that. However, as Mr. Duffy said, Beaumont Hospital highlighted the issue to the Comptroller and Auditor General and put arrangements in place.

This is the third or fourth time I have sat here discussing what was paid to one staff member who made a mistake in an organisation. I do not know an organisation in either the public or private sector that has not run into a problem with an individual employee, which eventually had to put that person on leave while an investigation took place. I know my colleagues in the Labour Party would be horrified if people were put on administrative leave without full pay. They would claim there was a breach of natural justice or that there was an inference that the person would be found guilty. Such people must be kept on full pay until the matter is determined. I even find that level of debate disquieting.

Following an unsatisfactory situation with a staff member, most organisations eventually negotiate a settlement to bring the matter to a conclusion. The alternative is to let it go to court and let the solicitors and barristers earn three times more than the cost of the settlement, in order to be able to say it was adjudicated on by the court. I am happy with how Beaumont Hospital brought the problem to a conclusion and that it did not end up costing millions of euro in the court, which I presume could have happened. I must record that I am unhappy the problem arose in the first place. However, I have difficulty with the minutia of what we are discussing here relative to the reputation and importance of Beaumont Hospital.

I wish to talk to the witnesses in more general terms about the work they do in Beaumont Hospital rather than discussing this specific issue. I think the witnesses understand where I am coming from on this matter. There are far more important matters in Beaumont Hospital than this issue. I can understand the witnesses' disappointment at having to deal with this issue repeatedly and that that is all that the Committee of Public Accounts has to talk about this morning.

Moving on to the broader issue——

I remind the Deputy that the committee was presented with a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Yes, I understand that.

We discussed it at a business meeting and we all agreed we should pursue it. We had an obligation to pursue it. The Deputy was party to that decision.

I do not have an objection to any questions on that.

I wanted to put that on record in fairness to the committee.

I am a member of the committee and it is an item on our agenda. However, we should have some proportionality in the amount of time we devote to an issue compared with the €300 million Beaumont Hospital spends annually. It is rightly on our agenda and is rightly being discussed. However, I would like some proportionality in the time we spend discussing it. We will spend 80% of our time discussing 0.1% of the hospital's expenditure in the year and very little time discussing the other €999 it spends out of every €1,000.

I know the Deputy needed to take part in the Dáil division earlier. In his absence other issues were raised.

And rightly so. They are on the agenda.

It was not just the minor issue. Other very important issues of public-private mix in the hospital——

I intend talking on that. I heard the Chairman saying that and I want to follow up on the matter.

In his opening statement Mr. Duffy said: "It is rare now for a patient to be waiting longer than 24 hours for admission and we are working hard to reduce this to a maximum wait of 12 hours within the next year and ultimately down to six hours". I live in County Laois. Patients from my county are occasionally referred to Beaumont Hospital. While I accept people can be admitted within 24 hours, I am aware of cases of people in Portlaoise waiting for days. When does the 24-hour period kick in? From our perspective a person is waiting to get into Beaumont Hospital. Is that when the consultant agrees to accept the patient? That could be several days after the request for the person to be admitted.

I would like to comment on the cases I have been following at local level. I understand that some consultants do their rounds once a day. That is when patients are discharged. If somebody is discharged, a bed becomes available. Consultants would have to do four rounds a day to discharge enough people to free up the number of beds we require in this context. Can Mr. Duffy explain how he arrived at the figures in question? I would like to understand how it was done.

Mr. Liam Duffy

I am talking about how long it takes people to be admitted to hospital through the accident and emergency department. We see many headlines about people who have to wait on trolleys in accident and emergency units for two, three or four days. Under the target that has been set, people will have to wait in the accident and emergency department for a maximum of six hours. We have turned that around.

Deputy Fleming is probably talking about cases in which patients need specialist care in the neurosurgery department or some other specialty. Such cases are prioritised on a daily basis. On any given day, there may be six or seven patients around the country with head injuries or brain tumours who need to be transferred to Dublin. Such cases are prioritised by the consultant who is "on take". In such circumstances, the consultant in question has to depend on beds becoming available in the unit. That can happen when patients are transferred back to their referring hospitals or are discharged. In some cases, it can take two or three days for a bed to become available for a patient. When patients are waiting in such circumstances, they wait elsewhere in the hospital or another hospital rather than in the hospital's accident and emergency unit. That is the difference.

Okay. That is where I was coming from. I was referring to people who are waiting to be admitted to hospital, rather than people who are waiting to be transferred internally from a hospital's accident and emergency department to a ward.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Yes.

What is the principle constraint that prevents people from getting into Beaumont Hospital? Is it a lack of beds? Is it a lack of consultants or nursing staff?

Mr. Liam Duffy

It is caused by a lack of beds in the first instance.

The problem is that there are not enough physical beds.

Mr. Liam Duffy

We do not have enough physical beds to put patients in. We have over 800 beds. Part of our job is to ensure that the beds are operating effectively and efficiently. People should only be brought in when they need to come in. We have moved to day admission for surgery. We have reduced lengths of stay. We face challenges when patients need to be transferred back to their referring hospitals, discharged back into the community or referred to a body like Rehab. That puts an additional strain on an area like neurosurgery. There are 120 beds in the neurosurgery unit. We can use other beds in the hospital to accommodate patients. If intensive care beds are available, they can be used to move people up. A patient cannot be moved from an intensive care bed in some other hospital in some other part of the country to a standard bed in Beaumont Hospital. Many dynamics are at play as we try to manage the system. We face constant challenges, on a daily basis, to ensure that patients in units throughout the country which do not have the services which are available at Beaumont Hospital are transferred to Beaumont Hospital as quickly as possible.

Mr. Duffy can understand the fear and worry of the families of patients.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely. Families encounter a great deal of pressure and strain as they wait.

Mr. Duffy can understand where we are coming from in that regard.

Mr. Liam Duffy

Absolutely.

I would like to discuss a few specific aspects of Beaumont Hospital's 2006 accounts. It seems that there is an unresolved issue with the Revenue Commissioners. It has been suggested that the hospital may have a €792,000 corporation tax liability in respect of its car park. I will not get into the detail of the one and a half pages of notes on the matter in the accounts. If the Revenue Commissioners agree with the hospital that the moneys do not need to be paid, will that €792,000 ultimately be available for patient care? Is provision currently being made to pay the €792,000 if needs be? Can somebody ask the Revenue Commissioners to come to a definitive conclusion on the matter? This dispute has been going on for five years. It is a shame that €792,000 is sitting in an account as a result, possibly, of the behaviour of the Revenue Commissioners. I do not know what the outcome of the dispute will be. Can somebody make a decision on the matter? If the money can be spent on health services, that should be done as quickly as possible. How soon can the matter be resolved?

I understand that Beaumont Hospital has €4,263,955 sitting in some kind of Bank of Ireland investment trust account while it waits for a rent dispute to be resolved. When one adds the €792,000 sum I mentioned to that amount, it means that the hospital has €5 million in cash that could be used on health services. It seems that the hospital will not be allowed to draw on the €4,263,955 until 2013. Can cash-starved health providers, such as Beaumont Hospital, do something to get their hands on those moneys? At a time when the hospital authorities are under pressure as they try to run the facility, it must be frustrating to see €5 million sitting in a bank account. Can these matters not be concluded?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We have the use of the €792,000 that is due in tax. The longer the dispute goes on without being resolved, the better-off we are in cash terms. If it were to be resolved tomorrow, we would have to issue a cheque for €792,000. We have had the use of the moneys in question.

The amount of money in the sinking fund is a different matter. We are not paying that money into the sinking fund. It is being paid in by the developer. The only purpose of paying that money into the sinking fund is to build towards the final total of €8.8 million that needs to be in the sinking fund by 2013. The money is in the hospital's name, but it has no control over it.

Who is the beneficial owner of that money?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The hospital is the beneficial owner of the money. There are restrictions on its use. We cannot make withdrawals from the fund. It can only be used by the hospital to pay for the transfer of the car park, if it decides to exercise its option in that regard. It could have been agreed that the developer would put in €1 rather than €8.8 million. For some reason, it was decided to put in €8.8 million to build up the fund. I think it probably has something to do with the developer's tax status. When the developer pays that money into the sinking fund, it is deemed to be a business expense. The developer will ultimately get that money back when the car park is transferred to the hospital. If we had a choice, we would have put nothing into the fund. We would have exercised a put and call option to allow us to get the car park.

I ask Mr. Mulligan to explain a figure on page 17 of the hospital's annual accounts. It seems that the hospital has paid out "gratuities" in the form of a lump sum of €1,166,000. What did that involve?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

When a member of staff retires, he or she is entitled to a lump sum equivalent to one and a half years' salary as part of his or her pension. There is a reference to "gratuities" at the beginning, but it is actually a reference to pension lump sums.

Who gets a gratuity? Why are gratuities awarded?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

I honestly cannot think of any gratuities.

It is not significant.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It is a description that has been used by the Department of Health and Children for a long time.

Mr. Mulligan can understand why I was curious when I saw the reference to "gratuities".

I wish to move on to the question of public mix. I compliment the Chairman for raising it earlier. This is the last topic I will talk about. Page 20 of the accounts states that the hospital received €2,511,000 in statutory inpatient charges in 2006. I do not know how much the statutory charge was at the time. It was probably approximately €60. If that is the case, approximately 40,000 people would have paid the inpatient charge in that year. The second paragraph of the opening statement states that the hospital had 236,000 bed days. The number of people paying the inpatient charge seems to be approximately 10% of the number of bed days. Given that everybody who does not have a medical card is obliged to make a statutory payment, I would have thought that such a payment would be made in respect of far more than 10% of bed days. I will speak separately about outpatients. Can Mr. Mulligan discuss that issue? We need some clarification on it.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The Deputy is right to say that everybody who does not have a medical card makes a statutory payment of €60 for each day of his or her hospital stay, up to a limit of ten days per annum. The maximum that anybody can pay in a year is €600. Everybody pays it.

What is the hospital's collection rate? What system does it use?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

There is a 97% collection rate for private patients.

Is that through the VHI and the other private companies?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes. There is a collection rate of approximately 80% for public patients. We send out letters, including solicitors' letters, to people.

The hospital refers such cases to a debt collector.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

We do. The problem is that it is not worth suing somebody for €60. When such cases arise, we try everything we can up to the point where the next step would be to go to court as that would not make sense.

Mr. Duffy indicated that when people present at accident and emergency, they can elect to use their private health insurance. Obviously, some people with private health insurance may not elect to use it.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes.

Are they captured in the figure for public patients of 80%?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

All those without a medical card pay the €60. If one elects to be a private patient and we have a private bed, one pays the private bed rate plus the——

Are patients in that category included in the 80% collection rate?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

No, private patients are paid for.

The collection rate for private patients is 100% because the fee is paid by the health insurance company.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It is paid for by the VHI or other insurance company and we collect it.

I have a similar question on outpatients. The hospital has collected statutory accident and emergency charges of €650,000. I estimate this figure equates to about 14,000 outpatients having paid. Given that Mr. Duffy indicated there were 27,000 new outpatients during the course of the year, it appears charges were collected from only half of these patients. Do medical cards account for the other half?

Mr. Liam Duffy

The outpatient charge applies to the accident and emergency department, not the outpatient clinic. The figure of 27,000 relates to the outpatient figure.

Where is the figure for the accident and emergency department?

Mr. Liam Duffy

There are 50,000 attendances in the accident and emergency department. If those who attend have visited their general practitioner in the first instance, the charge is not due. One then has a high level of medical card attendances. Then one has those who have to pay the charge.

Where, on page 20, is the figure for accident and emergency charges? Is it shown separately?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

It is shown in outpatient statutory charges.

That is the heading to which I referred.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

The Deputy is correct. The collection rate in 2006 was slightly over 50% and in 2007 it was about 61%.

I suspect the figures are low.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

They vary from 50% to 60%.

The collection rate for patients who are allocated a bed is 80%, whereas it is only 50% for those attending the accident and emergency department.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Absolutely.

That is what I have understood.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Persons who come into accident and emergency are only liable to pay €60, whereas persons who are in a bed could be in the hospital for a couple of days and will have a bigger sum to pay. In those cases, one can enforce all the remedies to collect this sum. The unwillingness of people to pay accident and emergency charges is an issue right across the hospital system.

When the committee compiles a report on the health service, I will suggest that a mechanism be introduced to obtain the PPS number of those arriving in accident and emergency and, if possible, deduct the charge from earnings in cases of non-payment. Considerable administration work is required to collect the charges. A staff member must type up and post out an invoice and possibly send out reminders. Hospitals probably spend about €200 every time they fail to collect the €66 charge. A mechanism should be available to collect charges through PPS numbers, whether through the social welfare system — I accept that most people in receipt of social welfare payments have medical cards — or the payroll system. I will make this suggestion later.

We all talk about administration in the Health Service Executive but chasing bills amounts to dead administration. The committee should try to find helpful ways to enable the system to be administered much more simply. Beaumont Hospital has a good reputation and I would like the committee to send out a message that it is a good hospital with an important job to do. We must discuss an issue today but it is a minor matter given the important work the hospital does.

I thank the Deputy. We will try to conclude because a delegation from the Irish Blood Transfusion Service is due to attend at the meeting.

A firm of solicitors was mentioned in connection with the debt collection system operated in the hospital. What is the annual cost of debt collection?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

I do not have the figure with me but I can send it to the committee.

Will Mr. Mulligan give an estimate?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Some of the figures on legal fees relate to debt collection. I defer to the internal auditor who has indicated the figure is €30,000.

Mr. James Rogan

The figure is quite small.

Are services such as MRI scans owned and controlled by the hospital or are companies working in the hospital on a contractual basis?

Mr. Gus Mulligan

They are all owned by the hospital.

The position in Beaumont Hospital differs from that pertaining in some other hospitals.

Mr. Gus Mulligan

Yes.

We have had an open and frank discussion and I thank all the witnesses for their responses. I ask Mr. Buckley to respond to the discussion.

Mr. John Buckley

The fundamental question is one of how business was done at the hospital in regard to information technology. Obviously, up to 2007 there were many shortcomings in how this was managed. The adoption of a strategy paves the way for an improvement in that regard.

What may be missed here is that €2 million was spent which could have been spent otherwise if the hospital had had the choice. A situation arose where the decision making of the hospital was constrained in regard to a substantial sum of money. This brings us back to the question of the lessons the hospital obviously has learned and other organisations need to learn, namely, that one must align the IT strategy with business needs and one must get IT governance right.

To touch on a matter referred to by Deputy Shortall, the issue of who should be involved in producing the strategy in IT projects is a very important one. Obviously, there are three communities of people involved. There is senior management who have to specify their information needs. There is also the day-to-day users of the equipment which has to be usable and suitable for their purposes. In this case we had people voting with their feet and walking away from the equipment the IT department was supplying. There needs to be some way of pulling together the three communities, namely, the IT professionals, users and senior management, in order that everybody is having their needs looked after.

It is also necessary to have some sort of external view, whether in the form of a project manager when one is doing a major project or some expertise to allow one to structure these projects properly and get an external view. The reason for this is that sometimes management is not capable of challenging the views it gets from very technically minded IT professionals. There is a need to build this in somehow, either within the organisations or at the wider systems level, perhaps through some sort of gateway reviews and possibly using expertise from the wider Civil Service on a panel. We will hear more about this is in the next session but it is a recurring problem throughout the service. It happened with PPARS and it happens with many IT developments.

The lessons that need to be and are being learned at the level of the hospital are that one must have a strategy and proper IT governance and within that, one has to bring together the various communities of interest which have to work and use the IT systems.

I thank Mr. Buckley and all those who attended the session. Is it agreed that the committee disposes of chapter 7 of Special Report No. 10, Beaumont Hospital, and note the consolidated financial statements for Beaumont Hospital board 2006 and Beaumont Hospital Car Park Company Limited, report and financial statements 2006? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.10 p.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.
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