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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Feb 2009

Chapter 8 — Marine Institute. Marine Institute Annual Report and Financial Statements 2006.

Mr. Tom Moran (Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) and Mr. Peter Heffernan (Chief Executive, Marine Institute) called and examined.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make written and oral submissions; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings, if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Moran, Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Will he, please, introduce his officials?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am accompanied by Mr. Cecil Beamish, assistant secretary in charge of fisheries, from our newly acquired fisheries division office in Clonakilty; Mr. John Fox, assistant secretary in charge of the single payment scheme and the rural environment protection scheme; Mr. Tony Burke, assistant secretary in charge of financial control and financial matters in the Department; Mr. Brendan Gleeson, principal officer in Mr. Burke's division, and Mr. Peter Heffernan and Ms Caroline Hepburn from the Marine Institute. Mr. Dermot Keane and Ms Gráinne McGuckin are from the Department of Finance.

They are all welcome. I invite Mr. Buckley to introduce the annual report. The full text of the chapters can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

Approximately €3.1 billion was spent in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in 2007, of which a total of €1.6 billion went through the Vote, of which €410 million represented resources sourced from the European Union. As services in the area of fisheries and the marine only transferred to the Department in 2007, a further €71 million is borne on the Vote for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The balance of €1.4 billion represents fully funded EU schemes administered by the Department.

Apart from delivering the schemes and programmes on which the €3.1 billion was spent, the Department pursues four other goals which could be briefly summarised as follows: promoting agri-food and related trade; ensuring food safety, consumer protection and animal welfare; promoting the development of the rural economy, sustainable production and structural change; and developing the Department's administrative capacity. The Accounting Officer has tabled a statement which sets out the Department's achievements under each of these goals.

The single payment scheme which was introduced in 2005 pays approximately €1.3 billion to 130,000 farmers each year. Chapter 9 of the report on the appropriation accounts dealt with an issue relating to implementation of the scheme. The net issue raised in the report was that there might be a liability on the State to refund some of the annual amounts paid. This could arise because payments in respect of land held under leases by farmers during the reference period for the establishment of single payment entitlements, that is, the years 2000 to 2002, included payments in respect of land where the leases had been terminated when single payments began.

In summary, despite the fact that these leases had ceased, the Department effectively maintains farmer entitlement for the underlying acreage by a process known as consolidation. The doubt that has arisen relates to whether consolidation could apply to these leases. The provisions of the Council regulation and the Commission implementation rules for consolidation of entitlements are open to interpretation. Currently, the European Court of Auditors and the Commission are taking a restrictive view in suggesting consolidation only applies to land which was taken out of the system due to compulsory purchase orders, afforestation and changes in the structure of farming enterprises. This view is taken despite the fact that the Commission's implementation rules acknowledged — admittedly, in a recital clause — that:

in certain circumstances farmers could end up with more entitlements than land to use them, for example, in the case of common use of a forage area, because of the expiry of a lease or the participation in an afforestation programme.

The Department stated that it discussed the interpretation with the Commission and that the Commission had agreed the Irish consolidation approach. Notwithstanding this, the European Court of Auditors' report represents the Commission as now taking a contrary view. Ultimately, while there is a contingent liability or potential financial exposure to the State as a result of the stance now being taken by the EU institutions, it can only crystallise, if at all, after the Department has been through all the relevant processes for clarifying or determining the issue.

On this score, the financial finalisation process can be quite slow on the part of the EU. For instance, by the end of 2006, claims had only been finalised for periods up to 1998 — a backlog of eight years. Overall, I thought it was important to draw attention to the matter because it is a contingency that needs to be managed since it could have a material and accumulating financial effect.

I will now turn to report No. 10, which deals with the Marine Institute. Following the purchase by the institute of the marine research vessel Celtic Explorer out of funding provided by the State, the institute recovered €5.14 million by way of a VAT refund in 2005.

The key message in the report, which reiterates existing public financial procedures, is that once a project has been completed with State funding any subsequent windfall gains, such as tax refunds, over and above the State funding agreed at the outset should be surrendered to the Exchequer. There are good reasons for this, which can be summarised as follows. First, it allows the Government to propose, and Dáil Éireann to determine, how the revenue of the State will be allocated taking account of overall public priorities at any point in time. Second, since much of the funding nowadays is allocated under programmes within the NDP, when full provision has been made for a particular measure, any balance should be available for other measures within that programme, and not applied for the general purposes of the organisation charged with implementing the measures. Third, surrender and reallocation gives much more leverage to the supervising Department to ensure that all funds appropriated by Dáil Éireann are applied under a viable business case.

In the event, while the expenditure has been fully accounted for in the Marine Institute's accounts, there was considerable confusion during this period about the source and use of the component parts of the funding provided, with some of the same costs being put forward as a basis for the grant-in-aid and also used to justify the application of the refund proceeds.

Partly due to the retention of the tax refund, the institute's cash resources during the year 2006 never fell below €6.6 million. Given the level of its cash balances, there was scope to adjust the timing of grant payments in the overall interest of economy. However, in current economic circumstances, matching grant issues to cash needs is something that will no doubt be monitored much more closely by funding Departments in an era of scarce Exchequer resources, which we are now experiencing. My office will also keep this under review generally in the course of its current audits.

I now call on the secretary-general to make his opening statement. There is a vote in the Dáil, so I would ask Mr. Moran to excuse some members who will have to rush away.

Mr. Tom Moran

No problem.

They already have a copy of Mr. Moran's statement, so we will keep the meeting going.

Mr. Moran

I fully appreciate that, Chairman. I am pleased to have this opportunity to address the committee. Thank you for being so accommodating. The last time we were due to appear before the committee was in December, which was in the middle of the pork crisis. I much appreciate the committee's flexibility in rescheduling that meeting.

The committee has asked me to comment on the operation of the internal audit function in the Department, and to include details of the number of reports undertaken in 2006 and 2007, and the areas covered. I would like to do this before I turn to the account itself.

The Department has always placed an extremely high value on good governance and strong internal systems of financial control. I have outlined these structures in the statement on internal financial controls that accompanied the appropriation account. They include: formalised procedures at all levels of the organisation; strong finance and accounts structures; an enterprise risk management system involving regular meetings of a high level risk management committee, which I chair; and an accreditation review group to review compliance with financial control requirements for EU co-funded and funded schemes. I also chair the latter group, which includes officials from all the paying and control divisions within the Department, as well as from the vote control section of the Department of Finance.

The Department is subject to an extremely high level of external audit not only by the Comptroller and Auditor General but also by the agriculture directorate of the EU Commission, OLAF — the Commission's anti-fraud directorate, the European Court of Auditors, and a private accountancy firm which acts as a certifying body for its EU accounts. In all, when the audits conducted by the internal audit unit are included, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was subject to more than 3,000 person days of audit in 2007, a slight increase on the 2006 level.

The internal audit unit is a critical part of the Department's governance framework. The unit is headed by a professionally qualified accountant and includes 20 appropriately trained staff. It operates to a formal charter and derives its authority directly from me as Accounting Officer. It is required to produce an annual work plan for all areas under its remit.

The internal audit unit reports to an independent audit committee, also with a formal charter. This committee, which was established in 1994, is chaired by an expert from the private sector and includes several external members, including representation from the Department of Finance.

The internal audit unit produced 14 internal audit reports in 2006 and 16 in 2007, concerning a variety of areas, including all the EU-funded and co-funded schemes, the research stimulus fund, the world food programme funding and a number of other areas, including IT-related areas such as the animal health computer system, the SAP accounts system, and the IT business continuity and disaster recovery systems. In addition, the unit carries out a substantial amount of audit work under the structural fund control and scrutiny regulations.

My Department was also requested to provide information separately on expenditure on consultancies to the committee, which we have done. To avoid any confusion or misunderstanding on this point, I want to explain the basis on which we have responded. The list of consultancies provided sets down those items which represent expenditure on independent advice which is not available within the Department. For this purpose, I have distinguished between consultancy and outsourcing or contractors. For example, the Department avails of contractors in the IT area to provide an essential service which is not available internally.

I now turn to the appropriation account for my Department in 2007, which is under review. My comments are on the outturn for 2007 and may seem out of context with developments in the meantime and with the economic and budgetary situation in which we now find ourselves. I should also explain at the outset that responsibility for fisheries functions was transferred to the newly constituted Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 20 October 2007. The Estimate and expenditure figures in the account include fisheries funding from that point until year end. Expenditure on fisheries matters prior to that date is included in the appropriation account for the Department of Communications, Energy and National Resources.

Because of the passage of time, I will give members of the Committee a quick reminder of the major developments in the environment within which the Department operated in 2007. It was the year in which the National Development Plan 2007-13 was launched, incorporating the €6 billion rural development plan. This provided for substantial support for the agri-food sector and the wider rural economy. In the markets for agriculture, 2007 was a good year overall with strong international milk prices. In our two main commodities — dairy and beef — the dairy sector performed well on EU and international markets due to increased demand and tight supplies. Beef markets were more challenging with recent annual trends in increasing prices easing somewhat. In overall terms, agri-food exports continued to expand.

Emerging concerns at international level on food security featured very much in 2007 and have since assumed an increasing importance for future policy on agriculture. In trade terms, the WTO negotiations were ongoing and, in June 2007, a serious but ultimately failed attempt was made to negotiate a new trade agreement under the Doha Round.

That year, 2007, was one in which the Department very much advanced its agenda in preparing the agrifood sector for the challenges of the decade ahead. We drove the simplification debate at EU level with considerable success, we remodelled the dairy quota system and provided for large-scale state investment in on-farm and industrial facilities and infrastructure.

Against that general background, the gross Vote for my Department for 2007 was €1.761 billion, including approximately €63 million for transferred fisheries functions. When appropriations-in-aid are taken into account, the net Estimate was €1.325 billion. Net expenditure was €1.155 billion, and €31 million of the consequential saving was rolled forward into the 2008 Estimate under the Department of Finance's multi-annual capital envelope arrangement. The net surplus for 2007, therefore, was €138 million.

These savings arose because of lower than anticipated expenditure on large demand-led schemes and additional EU receipts. Apart from the administrative budget, a substantial proportion of expenditure under the Department's Vote comprises schemes subject to external factors such as demand from beneficiaries, market and economic factors, animal disease incidence, and the pace at which capital investment and research projects are completed.

There is always some degree of uncertainty about the level of expenditure on such schemes and a difficulty in accurately forecasting expenditure. In 2007 this was exacerbated by the fact that implementation of enhanced rural development and other measures was contingent on our obtaining approval from the European Commission under the state aids regime and under the new rural development programme for the period 2007 to 2013. We had anticipated obtaining early Commission approval for the programme which was submitted in December 2006. As the programme was only formally approved in September 2007, there was some knock-on effect on expenditure during the year.

In 2007, savings arose in areas such as the welfare scheme for suckler cows — €18 million — for which state aid approval was only obtained late in the year, in the animal disease control area — €10 million — owing to reducing BSE and brucellosis levels, in the technical and operational costs of market supports primarily because of dramatically improved world prices in the dairy and cereals, in the marketing and processing scheme primarily because of the later than anticipated launch of the dairy investment scheme, in various demand-led rural development schemes such as the early retirement scheme — 18.7 million, the installation aid scheme — €2.3 million, and REPS — €49 million. Savings also arose as a result of the late receipt of state aid approval for the new fisheries decommissioning scheme — €15.1 million — and because of the pace of completion of approved fish processing, harbours development and other projects in the fisheries sector which amounted to €11.8 million. We always endeavour to provide in our Estimates for anticipated demand for the various schemes we operate, but ultimately expenditure depends on the variables I have mentioned already.

I want to address briefly the issue raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the consolidation of single payment scheme entitlements. There has been discussion at official level and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report records the Department's official response. The report refers in its conclusion to a contingent liability of an undetermined amount arising from the findings of the 2006 annual report of the European Court of Auditors on the consolidation of the single farm payment. I have no difficulty with this summary statement.

The members of the committee may be aware that the first payments were made under the decoupled single payment scheme on 1 December 2005. Approximately €1.3 billion of EU funding is spent annually on the scheme in Ireland. Given the scale of the EU funding involved in Ireland and elsewhere, it is inevitable that the single payment scheme will be the subject of considerable audit attention across all member states for the foreseeable future.

In its annual report for 2006, the European Court of Auditors included a chapter on the establishment of entitlements under the single payment scheme. Among its observations was that a number of member states, including Ireland, had not applied the provisions relating to consolidation of entitlements correctly. The background is that to participate in the single payment scheme, farmers were required to establish a payment entitlement per hectare. In Ireland, these entitlements were established on the basis of averaging coupled direct payments to an individual over the area farmed in the years 2000, 2001 and 2002.

Article 7 of Council Regulation 795/2004, permitted farmers, in certain circumstances, to consolidate payment entitlements, initially established on a certain number of hectares, to a reduced number of hectares. The need to do this might arise, for example, if part of a farmer's holding was subject to a compulsory purchase order. The rules limited such consolidation to 50% of the original holding. The view of the Court of Auditors was that in Ireland and a number of other member states, the circumstances in which consolidation was permitted went beyond those envisaged in the regulation.

I have indicated in my reply the Comptroller and Auditor General that I do not agree with the view expressed by the court in its annual report. Ireland provided for the consolidation of entitlements in the case of loss of leased land and afforested lands in addition to land lost through compulsory purchase orders. Specific mention is made of these measures in the relevant recital clause of Commission Regulation 795/2004. In addition, in preparing a programme for the consolidation of entitlements in Ireland, the Department consulted closely with the Commission, including its legal experts, at all times and is satisfied that its procedures were fully in compliance with the relevant regulations.

The Department is still engaged with the Commission on this audit finding. The question of any liability arises in the context of the Commission's conformity clearance of accounts, and we have not reached the point where the Commission has made a final determination in the matter. If the Commission and Ireland fail to agree on an outcome, the mechanisms established by the financial regulations governing the Common Agricultural Policy provide recourse to a conciliation procedure and, ultimately, to the European Court of Justice if that proves necessary. This would be a last resort. I indicated in my reply to the Comptroller and Auditor General that I believe further discussion and speculation on the outcome is premature and could undermine the Department's position in further negotiations with the Commission and any appellate body in the event that the Department failed to reach agreement with the Commission.

I am happy to take any questions the members of the committee might have.

Before we do so, I ask Mr. Peter Heffernan, chief executive of the Marine Institute, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Peter Heffernan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it this morning. I am happy to discuss with the committee the general issues arising from the matters raised in chapter 8 of Special Report 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the VAT refund to the Marine Institute. The Marine Institute, MI, succeeded in obtaining a refund of VAT from the Revenue Commissioners in mid-2005. The refund was in respect of VAT paid on a research vessel purchased by the institute in 2002. At all times during the lengthy and difficult negotiations with the Revenue Commissioners, the institute was given to understand by the Department that, if successfully reimbursed, the institute would be permitted to apply the refund to the marine research measure of the National Development Plan 2000-2006.

In late 2005 the institute sought sanction from the Department to allocate the refund to a number of urgent areas likely to emerge in 2006. In the event a sanction, differing in some respects from that sought, only emerged in late 2006, a year after the initial request was made. The delay in approving the expenditure, coupled with significant pressures on the Marine Institute Vote for 2006, put the MI in an extremely invidious position. In the absence of sanction, the Marine Institute took an executive decision to commence a drawdown of €1.4 million of the €5.2 million VAT refund on the basis that it fully expected the Department to approve the institute's request. The institute regarded this course of action as the least objectionable given the consequences of the alternative in terms of cessation of research vessel operations and, potentially, the postponement of the commencement of the new Marine Institute headquarters at Oranmore. The institute accepts the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Department that this was entirely inappropriate, both in the sense of anticipating the sanction and exceeding its capital provision.

The institute regrets its actions in the above regard and assures the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General that such a situation will not arise again and, also, that all expenditures — albeit unsanctioned at the time of expenditure — were undertaken in accordance with full internal audit and accounting procedures. The institute wishes the Committee of Public Accounts and Comptroller and Auditor General to be aware that it is fully satisfied that all funds expended from the proceeds of the VAT refund were appropriate to the national development plan marine research measure 2000 to 2006. It also wishes the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General to note that no expenditures were undertaken nor commitments made that were not ultimately covered by the sanction received from the Department in December 2006.

The large cash surpluses held by the Marine Institute arose as a result of holding the VAT refund and NDP funds. In respect of the 2000 to 2006 NDP, the institute drew down funds as profiled. However, due to the necessary managing of these projects, payments were made to grantees only on foot of the appropriate progress reports, as well as audited cost statements. Many grant-aided institutions suffered delays in producing these reports and, therefore, the institute withheld payment. This, regrettably, led to the institute drawing down funds in line with our profile but, due to unforeseen delays on the part of grant–aid recipients, the institute was unable to discharge them in the same time frame.

For the National Development Plan 2007 to 2013, the institute has adopted a new and more conservative approach to scheduling payments. In the first instance, we have reduced the advance payment amount to ensure regular and more frequent submission of cost statements; we have scheduled payments evenly over the lifetime of projects; we have engaged significantly more expert monitors to monitor projects and advise of any delays or adjustments in early course in order that these may be factored into cash flow; and we are applying financial penalties to all contracts for delayed submission of cost statements. From 2007 onwards payments on contracts entered into have been scheduled for the first quarter of each fiscal year, thus reducing the risk of late project reports-milestone achievements causing delayed payments beyond that fiscal year. This will ensure funds are drawn down to meet contractual obligations only and are not held by the institute.

I thank the Chairman for permitting me to make this opening statement. I will be very happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

May I publish Mr. Heffernan's statement?

Mr. Peter Heffernan

Yes.

Mr. Moran referred to endeavouring to provide in the Department's Estimates for anticipated demand for schemes but stated the Department could not provide for a number of variables. There is a substantial under provision for the farm waste management scheme, which was the subject of parliamentary questions in the Dáil yesterday. Surely there were not many variables in that the average payment was €33,000 and it was payable to approximately 17,000 farmers. The Department should have calculated demand at approximately €500 million. Where did the financial planning go wrong in that instance?

Mr. Tom Moran

The origins of the scheme and the way in which it developed from its initiation to the closing date warrant a few comments. The scheme arose out of the requirement on the part of farmers to adhere to the nitrates directive. That set of regulations, which were overdue, caused great difficulty and there was an urgent need to address the gap in infrastructure at farm level. The scheme was set up after a good deal of deliberation and negotiation. It involved exceptional state aid from the Commission and it also involved an extension of the old programme. There were deadlines for applications and for the closure of the scheme.

It was an attractive scheme because of its grant levels. There was a strong pull based on the high levels of grant, which, in some cases, were 60% and 70%, but there was also a strong push into the scheme as a result of the requirement under the nitrates directive and the implications that might have for single payments and a person's ability to sustain farming. As the scheme progressed towards its closing date, there was significant pressure to extend that date, particularly last year. Many valid arguments were made at the time that the work could not be done because there was huge pressure on building contractors and so on. While people could understand the wish to extend the scheme, it was not possible to extend the date of the work completion beyond December 2008. It was impossible to say towards the end of the year precisely how much of the work would be done. Throughout 2008, money was provided and the committee will probably recall a Supplementary Estimate of €190 million was provided in the latter stages of the year to deal with demand.

Even in December 2008 when people were saying throughout the country that this could not be done, approximately 14,000 applications for completed works came in, which was difficult to foresee. During the period of the operation of the scheme, therefore, circumstances were changing regarding the perspective of agriculture. As I said in my opening contribution, 2007 was a good year for agriculture and, therefore, there was a great deal of positivity around investment and so on with the perspective of food producing countries to export. As we entered 2008, circumstances changed considerably. A range of factors contributed to doubt over what could be set as the amount to meet demand under the scheme and it was not apparent until late in December 2008 what precisely would be required.

What was the Department's Estimate?

Mr. Tom Moran

A total of €125 million.

However, it will cost €500 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Tom Moran

Based on the number of approvals of applications, it will come out at around that figure.

I will not stray into policy but surely the cut off date was the problem. There was a rush of applications, which placed a demand on contractors, resulting in costs going through the roof. Surely, the obvious action would have been to extend the scheme and roll it out over a number of years rather than creating all the pressure at the end of 2008.

Mr. Tom Moran

There are two issues. First, the end date was set in the state aid approval given to Ireland and an exceptional measure was accorded to us because we made a strong case that, as a result of the nitrates constraints, the delay in the scheme and our need to get the infrastructure in place, we needed an extension. That is why we received exceptional state aid approval to pay a high level of grant. One condition was that it would end in December 2008.

Second, the costs relating to the scheme were fixed on the basis of standard cost. As was evident in the building boom, the costs of inputs such as steel and concrete increased but the scheme provided for set standards costs beyond which the grant-aid would not be paid.

That makes the case that there was a gross miscalculation in the Department if costs were constant.

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not accept there was a gross miscalculation. A range of factors contributed to the final outturn of the scheme. When the Estimates were being set, the full amount of those factors was not evident. Even at the end of the year, it was being argued everywhere that the work would not be done and there was no way people could provide for it. However, it was being treated as an exceptional area of expenditure. That is why late in the year there was a substantial supplementary Vote accorded to it to cover the——

Perhaps there was but the taxpayer will look on it as a gross miscalculation if the cost increased from €125 million to €500 million. The taxpayer will think, reasonably, that financial planning within the Department was way off.

Mr. Tom Moran

No, in fairness, it would have to be seen in the context mentioned. There were issues to do with the closing date, the builders and the weather. These are the issues that were raised with us. In demand-led schemes such as this it is very difficult to say whether those who apply for grants will actually go through with the work. The decision to go through with it depends on a range of factors, some at national level but others at micro-personal level. For example, in a year when agriculture prices and the perspective in the agricultural world are strong and positive there is a greater likelihood that people will go ahead with investment. If that changes, they have a reason to hold off. Some of the reasons people held off were related to the weather. There were many complaints and requests for the date to be extended because bad weather prevented work being done. That was the information coming through to us. For these reasons, there was a surge in the number of applications in December 2008. I assure the Chairman it was not a question of inflation in costs, as they are fixed. Each of the on-farm facilities is checked when the work is done and approved.

I know that, but if there was not an escalation of costs, the position is even more serious for the Department in that it should have known how much was required. There were 17,000 farmers applying and the average cost was approximately €33,000. Simple arithmetic, therefore, would have told the Department that €500 million was required. The Department would have known the rate of applications during the year. Will Mr. Moran give us a breakdown of the level of applicants on a month by month basis throughout the year?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not have the figures on a month by month basis to hand but can get them for the Chairman. There was a huge rush of applications — 14,000 — in December.

Were they not applications to complete?

Mr. Tom Moran

They were applications in respect of work that had been completed.

People obviously applied before they had the work done. Surely, therefore, the Department was aware during the year of the level of participation.

Mr. Tom Moran

One figure illustrates the difficulty. Some 8,000 applications approved were never acted on. People applied and joined the scheme but 8,000 did not proceed with the work. It is difficult to say precisely how many will go through with work under a demand-led scheme of that nature. I will get the figures the Chairman wants.

The Chairman has covered most of the questions I intended to ask. How many valid applications were received in total? There were 14,000 up to December last year, but what was the total outturn?

Mr. Tom Moran

About 17,000 applicants have been paid and approximately 17,600 applications are outstanding. Of the 17,000 paid, 14,000 submitted applications in respect of completed works in December 2008.

There was an announcement yesterday on the phasing of payments, but that is outside our remit. What checking and verification does the Department carry out on works in respect of which applications are made? Will Mr. Moran walk us through the process in place?

Mr. Tom Moran

When an application is sent to the Department and buildings are involved, inspectors visit to ensure pre-approval before work commences. Before any payment is made, a full on-the-spot inspection is carried out on the work done to ensure it complies with what was approved. The costs are tightly controlled by means of standard costing. If there is a difference between actual costs and standard costs, the lower figure is paid.

Therefore, there are two on-site inspections. What is the time lag between the lodging of an application, for example in December 2008, and the carrying out of an inspection?

Mr. Tom Moran

Does the Deputy mean from the time a person submits an application?

Mr. Tom Moran

Inspections are a major job of work, with 17,000 applications outstanding. We are doing all we can to speed up the process and hope that by the middle of the year we will have all applications approved ready for payment.

I have finished with my questions on the waste management scheme. If nobody else wants to come in on it, I will continue.

I have to go and vote but would like to make a few comments afterwards.

Taking a step back in time to 2007, the main issue, as mentioned in the opening statement, was that of contingent liability in the consolidation into the single farm payment. In the worst-case or doomsday scenario what would be the potential exposure of the State? If, for example, the process was exhausted and we were to come out at the wrong end, what would be our exposure?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is not possible to say. In my opening statement I said every member state was subject to EU audit on an ongoing basis, be it by the Court of Auditors or Commission auditors, etc. It is inevitable that the Commission or one or some of the auditors will have issues to raise on an ongoing basis with each member state on a range of schemes, from intervention to everything else, funded or co-funded by the European Union. Commission auditors raise issues which could, depending on how the process evolves, have financial implications. It is a long process, one whereby a view is expressed which is agreed or disagreed with or accepted. At the end of the process and in the event that money transfers are refused to the particular member state, the Commission makes a determination. We take the audit process extremely seriously, but it is an ongoing one. We are constantly subject to audit. In the case of the single payment, we disagree fundamentally with the positions being taken, as do other member states. The process is ongoing.

Do any other member states find themselves in the same position?

Mr. Tom Moran

On this issue, there are a number of member states concerned, ten as far as I recall——

The report shows there were four member states that did not comply with EU legislation.

Mr. Tom Moran

They were Austria, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. All member states are subject to ongoing audit procedures by the Commission. Following these audits, there is dialogue and issues are raised and dealt with. We had issues on a range of schemes. In those instances the Commission took a particular view on how a scheme was being operated in Ireland. We countered this by explaining we had operated it a particular way. The Commission might have said we should, perhaps, have done it another way. There is a process of dialogue and in many cases the Commission accepts the way we have operated schemes. However, there were cases where we had to push the matter to the next level — a conciliation process — or get back to the Commission and enter into serious dialogue with it until, ultimately, there was an outcome. Therefore, the short answer to the question is we cannot say what the outcome will be.

The report of the European Court of Auditors which I have before me states on page 91 that four member states were in default — Austria, Ireland, Wales and Scotland. It states that in 2005 more than 200,000 hectares were consolidated under the scheme. The estimated cost was €60 million a year. Wales and Scotland made a correction after the first year, which left Ireland and Austria in default. The report states Ireland had about 75% of the cost, approximately €45 million. Therefore, I cannot see how Mr. Moran cannot give an estimated cost and indicate the potential liability.

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I could not give an estimate of the liability because the value of the single payment is tied to that consolidation process and that is the figure that relates to that level of single payment. The point I am making is that we do not accept the approach being adopted by the Court of Auditors and we are in ——

The question was what would be the doomsday situation if Ireland were found to be in default? The question was to give an estimate of the cost. The estimate given in the report is €60 million, with Ireland having about 75% of that take-up. My calculation would be €45 million per year if things were lost. Would that be a reasonable figure?

Mr. Tom Moran

What I am trying to say is that I do not think it is helpful to estimate. In any area of dispute——

It is in black and white in this report.

Mr. Tom Moran

The estimated cost of the single payment involved in that consolidation process is what is in black and white.

That is all we are asking. What would be the estimated liability for Ireland? That was the reason for the question.

Mr. Tom Moran

Ultimately, something like this would depend on how the Commission would apply a disallowance, as it is called, to any particular scheme. It could take a view at any given time. Having listened to the cases being made, having taken on board some or all or none of the case, it could decide on a particular percentage of whatever. It does not follow that the amount of single payment that was consolidated in this case becomes then the liability. Any percentage could be taken. The Commission has all sorts of methodologies for applying penalties or disallowances across a whole range of schemes. We are in dispute on this aspect but that is part of the usual process and we are taking it very seriously. However, it would not be appropriate for us to go down the road of putting up what we think a liability might be because we are not even at that stage; we are still engaged in the very early stages of consultation and dispute with the Commission on this point. I would rather not speculate, for obvious reasons.

I will not press the Secretary General on the figures if he does not wish to speculate. What is the time line for the process? Has there been a similar process for other schemes where we have gone the distance and come out at the wrong end? Are we going down an avenue we have not travelled before?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, we have been down that road before, as has every other member states. Our record on this process of disallowing or withholding funds from the EU is the second best of all the 27 member states. Our track record in the past is excellent in that regard because we take it extremely seriously. We have had constant interaction with the Commission on threats to funding here, there and everywhere over issues. It is impossible to say precisely how long it will take as it depends on how the next phase responds. The Court of Auditors would make a view, the Commission auditors would make a view and we would respond. There is no saying when they would come back with a counter view. At a particular stage in that process, there is a formal bilateral which takes place with the Commission and where we argue the toss with them. We put forward our points. At that stage the Commission reflects again. After that it is open to the member state to go to this conciliation process which is a committee of so-called wise men who would look objectively look at the case being made by the Commission and the member state. The Commission is not obliged to take that view. We have gone that route before on some issues and have succeeded in making quite substantial adjustments to a particular point made by the Commission. After that, the Commission will then issue a formal statement in which the adjustment is made to the member state's money and it is then open to a member state to take it further if needs be. There is not a set time line and it can take as long or as short as needed.

Has the Secretary General an estimate of the time line?

Mr. Tom Moran

We are only at the stage where we are in serious exchange of information and we are vigorously standing by our view with a considerable amount of support from available data to both the Commission and ourselves. If I have a time line I will let the committee know.

I have a question about Teagasc. Is it true that part of the Department's strategy is to try and co-locate Teagasc and departmental offices around the country, either beside each other or within the same building? Is this departmental policy?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes. Like everyone else in the State, we are looking at efficiencies and value for money. Given the nature of our Department and given the nature of Teagasc we are by definition spread throughout the country. A total of 75% of the Department is spread across the country and after decentralisation a significant part of the Department will be located outside Dublin. Teagasc also has offices and operations throughout the country. We have made it clear before that in the current climate there is a lot of synergy and value to be obtained if it suited the business case for co-locating a Department and a Teagasc office in the same area. It would be more amenable to our clients but it also makes sense from a financial and a value for money point of view.

The Secretary General referred to REPS payments and they are a separate scheme to the single farm payment. I refer to an issue going back a number of months regarding the prepayment of REPS payments and the arrears. What is the up-to-date position as regards the Commission?

Mr. Tom Moran

REPS is one of our very big schemes. In 2008, a total of €313 million was spent and this year we will spend about €355 million. It is a very important scheme and it has been very successful. A total of 46,000 people are in REPS 2 and REPS 3 and another 12,000 in REPS 4. The Commission changed the arrangements for payment of REPS. We used to pay REPS up front. The Commission brought in new rules which required that REPS would be paid in two phases. The first 75% would be paid when all the administrative checks are completed and the final 25% would be paid after the inspection. That caused a certain amount of——

A cash flow difficulty.

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, cash flow difficulty. We would have liked to stay with the way we were doing it but we have to move with the Commission's change in rules. It will settle down and it will get over the difficulties. We have to keep in line with the Commission's rules.

Arising from that question, what percentage of applications are currently being rejected?

Mr. Tom Moran

About 12,000 applications have been received under REPS 4. About 2,000 of those applications have been paid. Some of the REPS plans coming to the Department need to go back because the Commission has focused in very strongly on that aspect of REPS and we have no option. I believe this will settle down. If REPS planners are sending in REPS plans which do not pass muster — they could be very small issues which can be dealt with very quickly or they could be more serious issues where options might be left out — they have to be returned to be amended. A total of 2,000 of the 12,000 REPS 4 payments have been made and we are making progress on speeding up that process. There was a bit of a delay last year.

Is it effectively down to the quality of the applications, that they are incomplete?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes. It is to do with the completeness of the REPS plan. Some of the shortcomings would be quite small or insignificant and could be put right fairly quickly. However, it is incumbent upon the applicant and the planner to do that rather than for the Department to be changing.

Is Mr. Moran saying that of the 12,000 some 10,000 are being sent back?

Mr. Tom Moran

No.

How many of the 10,000 are currently being returned?

Mr. Tom Moran

We are still examining the 10,000. We have not said we have sent them back. However, of the 12,000 we have paid 2,000. We hope to speed up that and get it paid. There was, as I said, a bit of a delay last year for other reasons in paying REPS 4, although we did ensure that REPS 2 and REPS 3 were fully paid up. That is why we paid out €313 million. The €355 million we would be confident would be paid this year as well.

How long are applications delayed for further examination or clarification? What would be the longest period that an application might sit in the Department awaiting a decision?

Mr. Tom Moran

Some of them would have been submitted, for example, from last May and on into this year. Some of them would have been submitted on a new system we have installed — an e-REPS system — which is screening some of them. However, some of them are on hand a little longer, from last May. Those are the ones we would be trying to speed up.

Has the Department a target date for completing the processing? Has it set an in-house benchmark to deal with the outstanding applications?

Mr. Tom Moran

Obviously as soon as possible. We are pulling out all the stops to get REPS paid. Once a plan comes in and is passed and so on, then there is no problem with it. It has to be examined and then put into the system and worked through. Each REPS plan is different. The unique thing about REPS is that it is a kind of tailor-made menu of options for each different farm. Therefore it demands a certain examination in each case. It is a unique scheme in Europe. It is quite a successful scheme by those standards. However, that makes it that much more complex. It is not like just pressing a payment button on a scheme.

My final question concerns the Vote. There was an increase in the amount of overtime and extra attendance — an amount of €2.1 million — in 2007 compared with 2006. To what is that attributable? Was it related to farm inspections?

Mr. Tom Moran

On overtime, I am getting those details. To make a general point on overtime, and on farm inspections, the number of farm inspections under the single payment has halved. It came down from 20,000, which we used to have to process under the old headage schemes where it was necessary to do separate checks, to approximately 10,000. We are obliged to do 5% and 1% depending on the area. We have also telescoped those inspections so that we cover 18 different measures on one farm on one inspection. That has been seriously rationalised. The overtime does not arise on that.

The general point I would make on overtime is that it relates to issues that might arise on a one-off basis. For example in the year in question we would be talking about things like additional work on foot and mouth disease. That was the year in which the UK had its unfortunate outbreak in the south east of England. We had avian flu issues, which required work at ports. There are certain areas where overtime is then required where it is more advantageous from a financial point of view to pay overtime than it would be to employ somebody full time. By and large our policy on overtime is to keep it as low as possible. This year we are going very much further with that. There are legal requirements on a Department like ours to do various things, to be at places and control certain things. For example, we have inspectors at certain meat plants. Sometimes it is a better use of resources to pay overtime to a particular officer to do the extra couple of hours than to have an extra officer. Those are the reasons it increased. This year it will be substantially cut.

I have a question on on-farm inspections. I represent a rural constituency and from time to time I might get a complaint from a farmer about an inspection and the manner in which the particular inspector may have presented himself or herself and gone about the work. Perhaps I should already know the answer to this. Is there a mechanism to have something like that investigated? Is there a complaints procedure? What channel of inquiry should the citizen pursue?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a fair question. We have made the point very strongly before that when the State in the form of its inspectorate goes on to a person's farm — if I may put it this way — it is a sensitive issue because a person's farm is very close to his or her home and so on. It is a bit different, if one likes, from going into business premises and so on. We operate on the basis of customer charters and we make sure in so far as we can that every accommodation is given to the individuals involved.

When the single-payment inspections came in first and when we shifted over to the single payment from all the various headage schemes, there is no doubt that there was a good deal of nervousness and unease throughout the country on that. That was coupled with a point the Deputy made earlier that people were concerned that now they were drawing down a single payment without having to have the cattle, sheep and so on, they were subject to rigorous inspection under EU law. They were somewhat concerned that this would be done in a particular way. I am confident experience has shown since then that such unease has diminished substantially. As I said, the numbers have come down. People have got used to the fact and are not as concerned as they would have been about the effects this might have on people.

On the specifics of the Deputy's question about an individual, we would have a modus operandi on the approach to an inspection. If there was a breach of that and there were actions taken that were unacceptable would look into those, because it is not in our interest. Our interest is to carry out the inspections in line with our EU, national and our food safety requirements to ensure that those farmers can export and sell their product and contribute to the €8 billion export figure.

Our concern there would be that the system works well and that farmers feel they are being inspected because that is the law. They need to feel that in return for getting the single payment they need to adhere to particular requirements. In fairness to the farmers, they must get a reasonable inspection. In fairness to the Department, the Department must be able to carry out an inspection, show that it has done so and demonstrate it to the EU. The kind of conversation we had earlier would show that. I believe it is working and people have settled down with it. If there are individual issues we can investigate those. If the Deputy has any——

Has the Department an internal contact point or is the Ombudsman the best option for those concerned?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Department has a customer service charter. I would not suggest that there is any need for involvement. I would see the Ombudsman as being fairly far down the road. If an individual farmer has an issue with an inspection, that can be looked into.

Does the Department have many cases with the Ombudsman at the moment?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not know, off-hand, the number of cases we have. I do not think we do. The Ombudsman works well with the Department. When the Ombudsman takes up issues we deal with them. I do not think we have a huge number of cases with the Ombudsman relating to inspections.

Mr. Moran might let us know.

Mr. Tom Moran

We will let the Deputy know that.

I have a question on the compensation following the pork crisis. I read that it would cost the taxpayer €180 million.

Mr. Tom Moran

Did the Chairman say €180 million?

Yes, €180 million. Has the Department estimated how much of that will go to compensate for imported pork coming from Chile and other places?

Mr. Tom Moran

The figure of €180 million was negotiated as part of the measure we discussed earlier. That €180 million is a facility that was made available to deal with the recall. The products that were recalled were primary and secondary products. An arrangement has been made to look at the possibility of tertiary products, for example, if Irish pigmeat is in a product that is causing difficulty. We do not intend to pay compensation in respect of foreign pigmeat. The recall scheme relates to pigmeat that was produced in Ireland between 1 September and 6 December. Under the FSAI designation, that is the "at risk" period. It has been argued that, in certain circumstances, pigmeat products that contained some Irish pigmeat and some foreign pigmeat could not be sold. I refer to products containing Irish pigmeat that were produced during the period in question. People have made the case that such products should be eligible under the scheme. No decision has been made in that regard. That case is being made.

I am aware that certain pork products are legally labelled as Irish even though they are processed using substantially foreign pigmeat. Does the Department have figures to indicate the level of importation of foreign-produced pigmeat? Has it calculated how much foreign-produced pigmeat is used in transformed products? Surely the Department must have an estimate of the extent of the compensation that may be required in respect of products, legally labelled as Irish, that include foreign-produced pigmeat.

Mr. Tom Moran

If there are products in circulation——

I do not want to get into policy. I am talking about the reality as it is.

Mr. Tom Moran

If products that are in circulation are labelled as Irish but are not Irish, that is misleading labelling.

I refer to products that are labelled as "produce of Ireland". The label might be misleading, but it is legal. It is legally labelled even though the label is misleading.

Mr. Tom Moran

Is the Chairman suggesting that the label is misleading because the product in question contains non-Irish pigmeat?

I refer to pigmeat that is labelled as "produce of Ireland" even though it contains non-Irish pigmeat.

Mr. Tom Moran

If a product that is imported into the EU is processed or worked on in the EU, it is described as "substantially transformed". That product carries the stamp of the country in which the last piece of work on it was done. If a product is imported into the EU from Chile, for example, and worked on in a pigmeat factory in the Netherlands or Ireland, the stamp on it will read "IE" for Ireland or "NL" for the Netherlands. The purpose of the stamp is to enable the product to be traced back to the plant where it was worked on. It is important to have a line of traceability for the purposes of food safety. There is an issue. I appreciate that the Chair has asked a specific question. The EU needs to reflect on how its overall labelling system captures the reality of a product's country of origin. The Department's view is that EU consumers should be able to know where their pork products come from, as is the case in respect of beef products. We have made that view clearly known to the Commission. One should be able to tell when one looks at the label on a product that it was manufactured or produced in a certain country, processed in a certain country, such as the Netherlands, and finally packed in a certain country. If a product comprises third country pork that was worked on in the EU, that should be clear on its label so that consumers can make reasonable choices on that basis.

The recall compensation scheme is tightly controlled. Those who will potentially benefit from it have argued that it is too tightly controlled. We have not spent a huge amount. To the best of my recollection, we have spent approximately €35 million on the product recall so far. I stand to be corrected on that. From memory, that is the figure. We are making sure that every single element we are providing for fits the terms of the scheme. We have not yet estimated how much of the €180 million fund will be spent on the various categories. Every product that is returned and rendered is being rigorously checked. We are providing for some of it to be rendered abroad under controlled conditions. If it is cost-efficient to render pork products in countries to which they have already been exported, it makes more sense to do that then to bring it back here to be rendered.

In a letter it sent to me, the IFA, for which I am not an apologist, claims that the Department is fully aware that meat from third countries with lower production standards is being imported into Ireland. The IFA alleges that the meat in question is being substantially transformed here before being legally labelled as "produce of Ireland". What is Mr. Moran's response to that allegation, in the context of the €180 million scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

A considerable amount of pigmeat — I cannot put my finger on the exact figure, but it is approximately 187,000 tonnes — is imported into Ireland. A large amount of pigmeat is exported out of Ireland too. There is an imbalance in the demand for the various parts of each pig. Members of the committee will be aware that each pig produces two hams and a certain amount of loin. The demand for pigmeat of different quality and different type shifts from country to country. There is a mismatch between the market for different types of pigmeat and the amount of pigmeat of various types that can be produced from each pig.

A huge industry in Ireland is based on the further processing of food, particularly meat, including pigmeat. The companies in the industry, which employ many people, import certain lower-value cuts of pigmeat for use in further processing. That brings me back to the point that was made about labelling. The Department has made a strong case to the Commission that, in the case of pork, it should adopt the same approach that has been adopted in respect of beef. Ireland has gone much further than any other country in that regard. We now require restaurants, for example, to indicate where their beef comes from. No other member state, with the exception of France, does that. We have put a formal proposal——

With all due respect, that is a joke. In my experience, not many restaurants indicate the origin of their beef. The health and safety authorities are supposed to monitor it.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is right.

They are not doing their job.

Mr. Tom Moran

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland is responsible for implementing the labelling laws on the ground. We remain strongly of the view that consumers, particularly those who are paying high prices for beef products in restaurants, should know where the meat they are buying has come from. They have a right to know.

It is not happening. In nine restaurants out of ten, one will not see any certification of origin. The health and safety authorities are not doing their job. There is no point in passing laws if they are not implemented. I appreciate that Mr. Moran and his colleagues are not responsible for this. It is not happening. Mr. Moran has cited a beef regulation as an example of what is being done. I am using it as an example of a useless law that is not being implemented.

Mr. Tom Moran

I hear what the Chairman is saying. It is an example of a measure that demands a good deal of consumer participation. However, it is a matter for the FSAI to answer the Chairman's particular question. Consumers should have the right to know where the products they purchase, particularly high-value products, come from. Many Irish consumers have a patriotic interest in the products under discussion. They know where meat products come from and are produced. Many of them know people who produce such products.

There is a view that consumers are happier with the quality of Irish products. I mentioned beef because the system of traceability and labelling of beef extends far beyond that of any other product. The system in question was developed on foot of the BSE crisis, to a large extent. The Department, in conjunction with the Department of Health and Children, has put formal proposals to the European Commission. We have asked the Commission to extend the beef traceability and labelling regime to other meat products, particularly pigmeat and lamb. We have a particular interest in pigmeat.

Poultry is another issue. Many poultry products undergo substantial transformation within the EU. They are perfectly safe and healthy. They must meet EU standards in order to come into the EU. That is a fact. We have made the point at EU level that consumers might like to know where such products come from. We are pleased that we are beginning to get a bit of support for that position. A month ago, we met the UK Minister, Hilary Benn, MP, who took the view, which was not usual, that the British will now press the idea of country of origin labelling. We were building alliances on the issue. We have not let go of country of origin labelling with the Commission and are still pressing for it because it is important.

Again, I do not propose to stray into policy matters. Is further legislation pending on country of origin labelling?

Mr. Tom Moran

We have submitted drafts to the Commission. If one was to implement legislation without Commission sanction, one would be in breach of European Union law. Italy has fallen foul of EU law on this. We have submitted a draft and we are getting a bit of traction at EU level. We are also pushing the issue with other member states.

I thank Mr. Moran.

Did Mr. Moran indicate the Food Safety Authority of Ireland was the responsible body? Which body is responsible for ensuring restaurants publicly indicate——

It is the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

Is it possible for the Department to communicate to the FSAI that concerns have been raised about this issue and to inquire as to what steps the authority, as the responsible body, is taking to ensure hotels, restaurants and other places where meat is consumed clearly display the country of origin of meat products?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, there is no difficulty in doing that. Procedurally, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland answers to the Department of Health and Children. The Department and the FSAI have a good working relationship and I would have no difficulty raising the issue with the authority.

I hope to have representatives of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland before the committee later in the year. Major questions arise about the attitude it showed when the issue of polluted bottled water arose earlier in the year. Consumers were sidelined and valid producers had to place large advertisements in newspapers indicating that their water products were not contaminated. Perhaps we will invite the FSAI to appear before the committee.

A large amount of meat will be consumed before legislation is introduced and representatives of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland appear before the committee. Mr. Moran does not appear to have a problem with my proposal that the Department would remind the FSAI of its duties in this respect.

On the €11.5 million in overtime payments, would it not be preferable, especially in the current climate where people are losing their jobs, unemployment is increasing and many qualified people do not have jobs, to recruit additional staff rather than paying out such a large sum in overtime? Would the Department not obtain greater value for money if it had extra staff? The figure of €11.5 million related to 2006. What is the current figure for overtime payments?

Mr. Tom Moran

The figure of €11.5 million was a substantial reduction on previous years. The overtime figure fluctuates but will definitely be lower this year. On the specific question as to whether employing more staff is better than overtime, if it were a symmetrical thing, whereby one could simply replace someone on high overtime, that would be the case. However, it does not work like that. Overtime is a flexibility function one has and does not incur long-term expenditure. The expenditure restrictions placed on the Department involve reducing staff numbers. The Department is reducing numbers substantially and will make further inroads into that as our work changes. Nobody would countenance having people where they are not needed because people are needed in other areas of the State. We know which Departments need staff at the moment.

Our approach is that overtime can be a tool that gives one flexibility with the greatest degree of efficiency in certain circumstances. I would have a difficulty if overtime were to become institutionalised, in which case the Deputy's question would be very relevant. However, I am happy that this is not the case. Overtime in the Department, which is decreasing, relates to particular work stresses in a particular area.

Expenditure under subhead A2, travel and subsistence, was 9% higher in 2007 than in 2006. What is the precise figure for expenditure on travel and subsistence in 2007?

Mr. Tom Moran

I will dig out the figure for the Deputy.

How does the figure break down between domestic travel and international travel?

Mr. Tom Moran

The 2007 figure for travel is €14.7 million. This is broken down between home travel of €13.2 million, EU travel of €870,000 and non-EU travel of €599,000.

To return to the issue of the farm waste management scheme, the figures show that the Estimate of €153 million was underspent by €13.9 million, giving total expenditure of €139 million. The crux of the issue is whether it would not have been better to extend the scheme to avoid the rush we experienced in December. Such a move would have allowed people to do the work next summer in an orderly manner and be paid from the 2010 Estimates? Did Mr. Moran state that 17,000 applicants had been paid? How many of those who completed the schemes before 31 December have not yet been paid?

Mr. Tom Moran

The figure was 17,600.

Would it have been better to extend the scheme to ensure it operates in an orderly fashion, as is the case with a similar scheme in Northern Ireland, which was introduced under the nitrates directive and has been extended? A vote taken in the Dáil to extend the scheme was ignored and the Department stuck to the line that the scheme had to close on 31 December 2008. Many of the 17,000 applicants who have not been paid completed works in September, October or November but did not send their files to the Department until late December. I understand those whose file was received in the Department after 19 December have not been paid, despite having completed the work. For various reasons, the files of these applicants were not received in the Department. What was the cut-off point? Applications received from a certain date have not been paid. Which date is it?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not have the precise figure but I will get it for the Deputy. We are fairly up to date as to approvals regarding work done before the end of the year. We are fairly happy that approvals sent for payment have been paid.

I am aware of some cases where they have not been paid.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will get the Deputy the precise figures on that. On the question of the closing date, as I stated, the scheme was a state aid approved scheme. A strict condition of this was that the work had to be done by the end of 2008. It was realised and I take the point——

I am familiar with the history of the scheme. Why would it not have been better to have an orderly extension of time? I will deal with the reason for my question in a moment.

Mr. Tom Moran

The main condition of state aid approval was that the work would be completed by December 2008.

Okay. I represent the Connemara area and a recent directive stipulated that hill sheep farmers must take their sheep off the hills for five months of the year. All those farmers who do not have low-lying land must provide sheds or other accommodation for the sheep they take off the hills. The situation was most difficult in Connemara. I am aware of some people who applied for the scheme in 2006 but they did not succeed in getting planning permission until almost the end of September or October 2008 due to the difficulty in getting planning permission for farm sheds in areas designated as scenic, natural heritage areas or special areas of conservation, and every other obstacle planning officials could find to stop them getting planning permission.

Eventually, when the horse had bolted, they got planning permission in September. They had to wait another month to get the C2 certificate and then they could not complete their work, or in some cases even start their work before the end of the year because they would have to make a major expenditure outlay but they might not get grant aid. What case do such people have? One end of the EU does not know what the other end is doing. They cannot comply with an EU directive stipulating they must take their sheep off the hills between October and January — for a short period in January they put the sheep back on the hills, which is ridiculous — but they must take them off again between February and March. Those people will lose their livelihood because they cannot comply, as they do not have any facilities to house the sheep they take off the hills and they did not qualify for the farm waste management grant because of planning and other matters. Where do they stand?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a condition that planning is required for construction.

I am aware of that.

Mr. Tom Moran

When the scheme closed for applications in December 2006 we extended the date for the receipt of planning documents to June 2007. We were conscious that people who were stuck in the planning queue had a difficulty in that regard. I understand the point the Deputy is making but the cut-off date must be strictly applied as part of EU state aid approval. That was not extended. When we got the permission to operate what was deemed to be an extremely attractive grant scheme the Commission made it a strict condition.

We were late in dealing with the nitrates issue. There had been a court case. The nitrates directive was introduced in the early 1990s. Essentially, we were trying to catch up with an infrastructural deficit. In getting state aid approval a serious negotiation took place with the Commission, including with the Commissioner, Madame Fischer Boel, and the date was a key part of it. All local authorities, for example, were urged to speed things up and do whatever they could in terms of planning.

They did not do that. I refer to a particular applicant in the Kylemore area who has several hundred ewes, perhaps up to 1,000, who has to get out of sheep farming. He made the case to the planners. I can give the planning numbers of three different applications he made. Every time he made an application a reason was given to refuse permission for him to build a slatted shed. He corrected the problem and the next reason for refusal was that he was in a natural heritage area. His application was refused a third time on the basis that his land was in an SAC area.

They might as well have told him he had to get out of farming because he cannot continue. He cannot comply with the requirement to take his sheep off the mountains for five months of the year because he does not have the facilities on the lowlands to deal with them. He does not have the sheds because he could not get planning permissions so he could not complete the work before the end of December. What will the Department do with him now? What will I tell my constituent who is concerned about his livelihood. This is one more family who will join the dole queue.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is a very difficult situation. From what has been said, apart from the issue of the sheep——

He was one of the first applicants for the scheme in 2006.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is a planning issue. A very attractive grant scheme was in place. Every effort was made to facilitate people in terms of getting planning documentation into the Department. We urged local authorities to expedite matters.

On that point, will Mr. Moran give me a copy of the direction to local authorities so I can take up the matter with the local authority?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, that is no problem. We will do that. Our concern was to make the scheme as workable and as attractive as possible. There was a push and a pull into that scheme. There were constraints. The constraint to which the Deputy refers is the parks and wildlife regulation to take the animals off the hills. I can fully understand that. A scheme was in place with an opening date and a closing date. A total of 42,000 applications were received and approximately 8,000 of those did not go ahead.

In view of the obvious difficulties that arose — the planning process is a classic example — given that 20% of applications did not get permission, did the Department look for an extension of the scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

It was made very clear to us on numerous occasions that the end date of the scheme was not up for negotiation and that there would not be an extension of it.

Why was a similar scheme in Northern Ireland extended?

Mr. Tom Moran

It was not a similar scheme. For a start the grant rates were not as attractive.

The scheme there was to comply with the nitrates directive.

Mr. Tom Moran

I cannot comment on how Northern Ireland managed to extend its scheme. The fact is that we were not in a position to extend the scheme. A significant amount has been achieved for the sheep sector. We have every sympathy for a farmer in that situation with such a number of sheep but who does not have facilities for them. Unfortunately, we could not extend the scheme but we did everything possible to make it attractive during its operation. The fact that we got so many people to participate in the scheme is a sign of its success. I do not know how many of the 8,000 applications that did not go ahead were due to the fact that they were blocked in the planning process. The Chairman will be aware that many people apply for a scheme and for a host of reasons decide they will not go ahead with it.

I find it strange that the Department did not analyse the 8,000 applications that did not go ahead, and that if a substantial number of them were blocked in the planning process that the Department, as Deputy McCormack indicated, did not apply for an extension in a similar way to what happened in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Tom Moran

One would not have any indication why a person did not go ahead with an application. It would simply be the case that an application did not proceed.

The Department knew there were planning issues because it issued a circular to local authorities but there was no attempt to extend the scheme to accommodate people who were up against bureaucracy. Most of those people are struggling for survival but they did not get help from anybody.

Mr. Tom Moran

We were well aware that people were having difficulty getting through the planning system because of the nature of the buildings proposed. It was for that reason and because of the scale of the scheme, which was unprecedented in terms of the volume, that we took up the matter with local authorities and asked them to do their level best to expedite matters. I will make available the contacts that were made.

It is ironic that people on the Mourne mountains could get an extension of the scheme when they had difficulties but people in the mountains in Connemara were left high and dry.

Mr. Tom Moran

From what the Deputy said in the case to which he referred — I do not know the specifics — it would appear that planning difficulties arose. However, that is not my remit and I do not know anything about it.

There were also several cases of smaller farmers with up to 40 ewes who were considered sheep farmers and they applied for exempt developments on the basis that they were small in size but that no time limit applied to the local authority in dealing with such applications. I know of some cases in which applications for exempted development were not dealt with for a year and a half by the planning authority because there was no statutory obligation to do so. Applications for exempted development are unlike applications for planning permission in the sense that there is no statutory obligation on the planning authority and no deadline. The people affected are left hanging by the local authority. I have as much sympathy for the small person as I have for the bigger person. I accept the closing date of 31 December but there are genuine people who submitted applications as soon as the scheme came into operation who, through no fault of their own, were unable to have work done before the deadline because they were not allowed to start.

With regard to the 17,000 people, it was stated that payments have been made in respect of files received up to a certain date. I am not sure exactly what Mr. Moran is saying in this regard. I am aware of people, again in the Connemara area, who were due grants of €20,000 or €30,000, having spent €60,000 or €70,000 on their farm developments. They borrowed money pending the receipt of the grants but they have not received them despite the fact that their works were finished in October. The works were notified and inspected in November. When the people affected make inquiries, they are told their files did not arrive in the Department until 20 December and that, as a consequence, they will be included in the list of people who will not be paid until 2011. The bank is on to them every day. It would be great if the banks had the money so they could lend it to some other person who wants to build a house or slatted shed without the grant. It is a vicious circle.

The Department underestimated the uptake of the scheme so gravely, despite the fact that it knew the applications were submitted and that 8,000 applicants did not proceed with works. I do not know how many of the latter did not proceed due to planning issues but I would say there were many. What does Mr. Moran say to those people who cannot now be paid but who have done everything right and who had their planning permission, etc., in order? What am I to say to them?

Mr. Tom Moran

Payments have been made in respect of the completed applications up to December.

Up to what date in December?

Mr. Tom Moran

I think it was early December. I can get the details for the Deputy.

I have checked it myself and was told by the Department that it had, at the time of asking, sanctioned for payment all files that were in order and submitted prior to 19 December. The unfortunate person who had his work finished in October had his file inspected in November. It was received on 20 December and he cannot now be paid despite the fact that he did everything right.

There has been a slump in the economy.

Mr. Tom Moran

I very much take the point the Deputy has made on banks and so on. What was announced yesterday is that, in the current financial circumstances, the arrangements for payment will be based on a 40:40:20 basis. Forty per cent is to be paid in 2009, 40% in 2010 and 20% the following year. It was also made very clear that the Minister is to meet the banks today and take the issue up with them. The point being made is very fair. An issue arises over liquidity and cashflow and I fully realise farmers are in a difficult position vis-à-vis credit at any given time. At a time when prices may not be at the level they were at a year ago or so, the difficulty will be even more accentuated. In light of the current circumstances, that is the decision announced yesterday. The Minister is going to meet the banks to make sure——

Is the Secretary General telling me that if the person in question is lucky enough to receive 40% of his payment in 2009, 40% the following year and 20% in 2011, the bank will waive his interest charges on the amount outstanding over the three years?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

That is the crux of the matter.

Mr. Tom Moran

The payment will be made under the scheme on a 40:40:20 basis. The exact operational details are not yet completed and they are being examined currently.

When will the outcome be known?

Mr. Tom Moran

I would hope it will be within a matter of days.

The arrangement the Department will make with the banks will be known within a few days.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a question of how the 40:40:20 arrangement will be put into practice.

What negotiations is the Department having with the banks to ensure the burden will be eased for those people who were legitimately entitled to money — 40% in 2009, 40% in 2010 and 20% in 2011? They are paying high interest rates and are under extreme pressure from the banks. The banks have completely stopped offering any type of overdraft or credit to farmers who may need it to feed their stock or do other jobs. They are in desperate circumstances.

Mr. Tom Moran

The decision on the putting into practice of the 40:40:20 arrangement has only just recently been taken. It was only announced yesterday afternoon in the Dáil by the Minister. There were discussions late last night with farm organisations, and these are ongoing. The Minister is also engaged in discussions with the banks. I am not yet in a position to outline the final operational aspects of that decision.

Could the proportion for this year change from 40% to 50% or 60%?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying the putting into operation of the 40:40:20 arrangement, which has been decided, has not yet been concluded.

Perhaps since the discussions are ongoing with the farming organisations, we will await the developments.

On what is Mr. Moran to revert to me?

Mr. Tom Moran

On the communications with the local authority.

It is on the instructions, or otherwise, that were given to the local authority. These are vital in a number of cases of which I am aware.

It was stated the Marine Institute regrets the actions regarding the refund of the VAT in the order of €5.25 million. Has it been paid back to the Exchequer or will the grant to the institute be reduced by that sum? What will happen because €5.25 million was spent for the incorrect reasons?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Marine Institute money has since been taken into account in regard to the financial allocations thereto by the State.

Does that mean there was €5.25 million less allocated the following year because the institute spent €5.25 million?

Mr. Tom Moran

Subsequent to sanction being given, the money was spent on other approved areas within the operations of the Marine Institute in respect of its research programme, etc.

All politics is local. I note that more than €3 million was spent fitting out the new headquarters in Rinville, Oranmore. What kind of fitting out would cost €3 million?

To clarify, did the Department agree that the VAT refund could be spent?

Mr. Tom Moran

Subsequently sanction was given, as I understand it. The issue was that the initial VAT refund was given back to the Marine Institute. The issue involved the extent to which sanction was ultimately given for use of that sum in a certain way by the Marine Institute.

The institute at no stage acted irregularly. It was done with departmental sanction.

Mr. Tom Moran

We accepted that it was a breach of procedures. Money came back from the Revenue to the Marine Institute. That money should either have been sanctioned, returned to the Exchequer or offset against grant-in-aid. In the event, it was held within the Marine Institute and the sanction was given at the end of the process to use in programmes that were being carried out by the Marine Institute.

I note that no money was lost as a result. It was simply a question of the correct procedures not being followed. Is there any breakdown of the figures as regards the fit-out of €3.7 million?

Mr. Tom Moran

I suggest that might relate to an operational aspect of the Marine Institute.

Mr. Peter Heffernan

Would the Chairman like me to answer that?

Yes, if you please.

Mr. Peter Heffernan

It relates to the expenditure involved outside the building contract, which was managed by the Office of Public Works. It required scientific and IT equipment, telephone systems and storage systems that are not the responsibility of the OPW to provide. In order to effect a very rapid turnaround, moving into the facility and the delivery of services as required every week of the year from the institute, to allow food safety, for example, to be certified, we had to have the new pieces of equipment that could not be transferred and which were required by expanded services to be operational within three days of moving into the facility. That is the reason for the expenditure on scientific equipment such as SEMs, chemical machines, biotoxin equipment, freezers and PCR manicure machines associated with food safety services, as well as the whole IT infrastructure and telephone system that was required to operate the new facility. There was also the laboratory equipment fit-out that would not ordinarily be covered within the ambit of an OPW building.

I accept that 100%, and very much welcome the facilities in Oranmore. I just wanted to know for my own information, while accepting that moneys were not wasted or lost in the process, even though it was not done by the book.

What was the total cost of Oranmore and the Celtic Explorer?

Mr. Peter Heffernan

The Celtic Explorer is a 65 m research vessel. The total cost, including VAT, was €31.5 million at the time of the purchase.

As regards the Oranmore building project, I have not got the figures off the top of my head. However, in the context of the construction project, from memory, it was of the order of €40 million and was brought in on time and on budget by the OPW.

I welcome Mr. Moran and his team. He is working in one of the most publicised Departments in the land. As someone who spent some time in this area, I was always very impressed by the work being done and the dedication of the staff.

As regards the farm grant, the Department is paying 40% immediately, more or less, with another 40% to be paid next year. Why not make it two payments of 50% and defer the second payment to the later part of 2010? I know it might be Government policy to use the 40:40:20 formula, and it is important for people to be paid on time for their equipment, but why not make it two payments of 50%? Half now and half late next year would be more efficient and better for the farming community, and perhaps would satisfy the requirements of the bank. Some banks are coming the heavy on farmers, for some reason or another.

In his opening remarks, Mr. Moran made a statement about the dairy sector performing well in national markets and said that beef markets were more challenging. As we move from dairying this year into the beef markets, we are hearing prices of 18 cent and 19 cent a litre being quoted, which is well below the cost of production. I know the Minister has been successful in getting some intervention from Brussels for the dairy industry. Where does Mr. Moran see the dairy industry going in the next 12 months? I know he does not have a crystal ball but perhaps he might have a shot at it. I believe we shall see the bigger farmers leaving the industry and getting out of the business. They will not be able to compete because of the substantial labour costs. The smaller people again, will have to maintain the family farm.

I strongly believe that looking for additional quota was not in the best interests of Ireland. The greater the additional quota, the more the markets will be filled that we ourselves had been filling. Ireland has done very well under the existing quota regime. It saved the family farm and did well for Ireland. We in the farming sector have let ourselves be manipulated while listening to public opinion. People with grandiose ideas making big speeches have influenced the changeover towards additional quota, which is not in the best interests of Ireland and the family farm. I should like if Mr. Moran would address these issues and I have a few more questions for him.

Mr. Tom Moran

On the farm waste issue, in an ideal situation we would like to pay 100% in this year.

I understand that.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will pass the point made by the Deputy on to the Minister. The decision of 40:40:20 was adopted in the context that will be appreciated by everyone in this room, and it was a Government decision. However, I shall pass on the suggestion of 50:50 payment, with the second 50% delayed into 2010, and I understand the point the Deputy is making.

As regards milk, the Deputy has touched on an enormously important area. In relation to the market, this year will be a rough one for milk, no question. There are many reasons milk prices have come off the peak, but one is the clear demand response to an extremely high priced situation throughout the world. Then there are issues of climate and drought that led to the high prices. Slackening demand due to worldwide recession is having a definite effect on the market, including China, which was also hit by a food safety issue. There is a whole range of reasons the milk price has fallen from its very high point. It is a matter for the dairy industry to communicate at what level those prices are at, but we are aware that they are under serious pressure.

As the Deputy has said, in the context of the health check we managed to retain some key market support areas on butter intervention, skim milk powder and private storage. That was very important to us and we have already impressed upon the Commission the need to implement those supports at an early stage during this year. Whether they will be sufficient is difficult to answer. It will be very difficult to support a market, given the fall in prices we have seen this year. It will be particularly difficult.

I do not believe the question of the dip in the market this year is related to the long-term policy on quotas. In the health check it was clear that milk quotas will go in 2014, and we are working on that assumption. If milk quotas are going at that time, then it is in Ireland's interest to avoid falling off a step, so that it is better to maintain a low level of production until the time when quotas go, to avoid a rapid crash. Our policy has been to have a soft landing by the time we reach the end of the quotas. One way to do this is to build up the quota output bit by bit. Overall, we stand to increase quotas by 9.3% over the next four or five years. Some of that relates to an adjustment in the fat content of milk, which has always been a bone of contention in Ireland. Because we had a low level of fat in milk, we were penalised when that fat level increased, as though it were additional milk output. We have obtained an adjustment in that regard, which in effect means increased output.

In the long-term interests of Ireland, we should maximise and increase our milk output.

I take the point made by the Deputy about family farms. Small family dairy farms have always been a key element of the policy on how we manage the milk sector in Ireland. A great number of milk farmers will have benefitted under the farm waste scheme, so they are set up to farm sustainably in the future. The quota regime has been liberalised to a great extent to allow people prepare themselves for the future by way of partnerships and other flexibilities within the system. We have also provided grant aid to the industry to make sure that it is up to international standard. It is a very important sector for exports and jobs, and is the backbone of the family farm system in Ireland. We have put in place the infrastructure, the rules and regulations, and we have also made sure that there is flexibility and increased output so that we can be the major exporting country that we are.

This year will be a difficult one for the milk sector, but the prognosis is it will continue on its upward trajectory. Demand is increasing worldwide, even though the current recession has caused a blip. However, we have the potential to supply milk in the long term and to export much more than we produce. We are between 80% and 100% self-sufficient in milk and meat. We are big exporters of those products, so it is in our interests to get the infrastructure and volume to do this. That does not take away from the difficulties that are there this year, and we will be keeping a close watch with our colleagues in the EU to make sure that this year's supports are properly tailored to meet whatever stresses are in the market.

I do not disagree with the Secretary General, but there will be a massive movement out of the milk sector, because it will not be economical to produce it. I can see this happening already.

We have heard much talk about the rationalisation of the dairy industry, and we have learned much from the pork crisis. Just like New Zealand, one operation processes all the milk in Ireland, which is currently about 5 to 6 million tonnes. If there was a salmonella-like scare in the dairy industry, the whole operation would be closed down. We want a number of processing outlets across the country. The processing structure is not a bad one, but we could still have a dioxin crisis like that which occurred in the pig industry, and in which the Department did a very good job. We must have a number of plants across the country, rather than one large plant.

Bord Bia gets a grant of €27 million, which is not a very generous amount of money for an agency that does an excellent job in promoting Ireland. In my experience, it is Ireland's best ambassador. The beef industry is the major part of the food industry in Ireland. We are the biggest exporters in Europe. It is a depressed area that needs much work and time. Why is there such a small amount of money in grant aid for Bord Bia? I think €27 million is a very small amount of money for an industry that is worth about €10 billion.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is all relative. Bord Bia does an excellent job, and an example of that is how pork was back on the shelves within three of four days of the withdrawal of pork products during the dioxin crisis. The products contained a label indicating that the pork was acceptable, and it is indicative of the efficiency of Bord Bia in working with the system.

We export 90% of our beef, and about 50% of those exports were to non-EU countries nine years ago. The beef that was going outside the EU depended on export refunds and depended upon the will of countries to take the product. That is why we had issues with Egypt, Iran and others. That pattern has shifted completely, and 90% of our exports go into the high value EU markets, and the contribution of Bord Bia to that has been phenomenal. The fact that Bord Bia does this with the money it receives is a testament to its excellence. We increased the amount of money from time to time for a particular product. For example, if there was a food safety scare and a dip in a product and Bord Bia needed to step into the breach, then that was done in the past. Things are very difficult in the current climate, but the organisation does an excellent job with current funds.

Bord Bia has also taken on issues as they arise, be it issues to do with beef, pigmeat, poultry and so on, and it has implemented quality assurance schemes across the board. I cannot answer the question on why Bord Bia does not get more money, other than to state that it does an excellent job with the money it receives.

There is an agency under investigation by this committee which spent a lot of money on travel around the world without any justification, whereas Bord Bia should be travelling more, identifying markets and doing more promotion, for which a cost is involved. Ireland is an international player in the food industry.

The Chairman asked some questions about the pork industry and pork imports. I am not a whistleblower, but I am aware of secondary processors who changed labelling to get compensation, so the Chairman is right in what he said. That is the nature of Irish people, and I cannot blame the Department for that. There are 60,000 tonnes of bacon and thousands of tonnes of poultry meat imported into the country, which is more than a third of the total production here. This is being encouraged by Enterprise Ireland, as it provides jobs, but we are destroying our own native industry. Secondary processing has destroyed the bacon industry and possibly the pork industry as well. There is no slaughtering and packing carried out on the same site any more in Ireland, as it is all done through secondary processing. Nobody knows the country of origin, so that is why the battle goes on.

My colleagues and I are nearly choked from making our voices heard in this House about the country of origin issue for pigmeat. The poultry industry is a huge employer in rural Ireland, in places such as Cavan and Monaghan, and possibly west Limerick in the past, while the pig industry is a big employer across the country. We have destroyed the industry. We had famous brands like Denny, Galtee and so on, upon which people could rely. However, slaughtering and packing on the same site occurs in the US, and there are no abuses in that system. If we do not go back to that system here, nobody will trust the product. Many of the multiples also contain their own brands, so people are looking for genuine products.

Mr. Moran made the point that Bord Bia did a good job in getting the pork products back on the shelves within a few days, but it was guaranteeing it. The secondary processors were asked to bar code their products for identification purposes, but they did not do that. There is wholesale abuse going on. I can import chicken from Thailand or Fiji, put bread stuffing into it and sell it in the shop as an Irish product. We have a conflict between the shamrock and the Bord Bia emblem. This may be a policy for the Government, but the Department regulates the food industry. Action must be taken sooner rather than later, because Ireland depends very much on the food and agriculture industries for jobs.

I am highly critical of Enterprise Ireland. I see what it has done. It has destroyed the poultry industry and particularly the pigmeat industry. We have no slaughtering or packing of pigmeat today, only secondary processing. This is the only country in the world which is doing this, and one can go to the Denmark, which I visited, Holland or anywhere else to see what happens there.

I agree with the Chairman that there was a racket, which is well known. That is the nature of the business.

There was or there is?

There was a racket but it is finished now. The Chairman is spot on because he knows the business. I do not know what we can do about it, however, because it is hard to identify.

Teagasc is an agency that does great work in rural Ireland. However, there is a huge backlog of inspections for REPS. I understand applications were made as late as October and, while people were depending on Teagasc, no inspections will be carried out until July of this year for REPS 4. Can anything be done to speed up this process?

Teagasc is a genuine, State-run, independent organisation. People do not like to go to private agencies in the agricultural area and prefer to be looked after by a State agency which has independence and no commitment to any side. I am aware from complaints that a number of people who applied for REPS 4 are still waiting for Teagasc to carry out inspections but they have been told it will not happen until July, although they applied in October.

What is the policy on Teagasc given the new situation regarding the grant? Will there be massive changes? Will there be fewer advisers in the field? Will we see a change of offices? I have no difficulty with the current offices and, while I believe there is a need for change, I do not want Teagasc to have fewer advisers. Teagasc has become a very specialist organisation in the areas of dairy, beef, REPS and all the rest. It does wonderful work and farmers are now adjusting to paying consultancy fees or a membership fee. I want to know what the new policy is given that the Department is the regulator of Teagasc.

Mr. Tom Moran

I agree with the broader points made by Deputy O'Keeffe with regard to pigmeat, food safety and so on. The point that is highlighted is the importance of food safety and the integrity of the system. In a food sector like ours, which is based on primary raw material to a very large extent, the demands worldwide are becoming considerably more rigorous. All the way through from primary production to processing, third countries and EU countries are demanding integrity of the product.

It is not that we need to learn that much, as we have been through many of these types of offences before. However, when one comes across an event like dioxins in pork, or BSE in beef, and when one is dealing with a biosector, one will always have to deal with the eventuality of having an issue where one does not know what is coming down the tracks. For example, when avian flu came, people had to start thinking of poultry. What one learns is that one's systems will be rigorously put under the microscope and scrutinised in the event of there being an issue.

It is not the fact we had the dioxin issue which is the key point; the point is how we dealt with it as a country. This means a country like Japan can turn around and say it will still take our product. This is important because, when one is out of the market in such countries, it is very difficult to get back in. However, we managed to keep that market open on the basis of the systems we have in place. I agree with much of the Deputy's point in this regard.

With regard to Teagasc and REPS planning and so on, if somebody is submitting a REPS plan, that person can engage Teagasc to do it or there is a system of private planners. If the——

They do not want to employ a planner. They want Teagasc to do it.

Mr. Tom Moran

I accept that. However, Teagasc operates in the same domain as private planners. It is actually obliged to do that under competition——

I am sorry to interrupt. People see Teagasc as an independent agency with no agenda whereas private agencies have agendas.

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand the point. This signals that the individual farmer likes to have a choice and does have a choice. He may have reasons for choosing Teagasc, in which case there is probably a great demand on its planning.

What it indicates is the popularity of REPS and the fact people want to get into the scheme, particularly at a time when there is pressure on other aspects of income because they are looking, rightly so, at every single stream of income that is available. If they can farm in a more environmentally friendly fashion and be paid for it, and if the public, as they do, get a further benefit from that in terms of greater biodiversity, higher quality water and so on, it is a win-win situation because it is sustainable farming.

It is good that there is a demand. We can discuss with Teagasc how it can best respond to the demand.

I compliment the Department on the very efficient handling of the dioxins in pork issue, where it showed great leadership. However, the number of agencies involved was too great. There should be such one single agency dealing with health matters. For example, the Department had the lead role but the HSE, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the local authorities, the Department of Health and Children and perhaps another agency were also involved. When this story broke——

There was also the EPA.

That is correct. It was an environmental matter. Even the Taoiseach was involved, which is fair enough. It is similar to the position in the UK when finance is being discussed and Mr. Darling is regularly involved. Six Ministers, including the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, were at the top table, which is a very prestigious place to be.

People are beginning to ask questions, however. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food does an excellent job on behalf of farming and the food industry. If all of this was left to the Department, we might have a different agriculture and a different health status in farming. Everyone is trying to score points in such a situation and to be one better than the other. A little of this perhaps came across in the early days, although it died away when things got tough.

I compliment the Department in this regard, although there is no need to reply on the point. We must consider an agency to deal with a number of areas.

I have a question for Mr. Heffernan. Has the Marine Institute any other sites throughout the country, apart from the one we hear about in the west? I understand the institute has been decentralised to the west.

Mr. Peter Heffernan

The Marine Institute headquarters and the primary laboratory facilities are located in Oranmore, outside Galway city. There is one other significant location in Newport, County Mayo, which is the world indicator site for the management of salmon. A hugely valuable international database has been maintained by Ireland for over 50 years which is crucial to the management of that resource. Moreover, it is an open door laboratory and has been significantly involved in water quality work with regard to forestry practices and rural practices. I commend a very recent report undertaken with the forest services and Coillte — the red areas project — which examines forestry practices through that open door laboratory. Historically, that facility was established and owned by the Guinness family. It was deeded to the State a number of years ago and became part of the Marine Institute in the late 1990s.

We maintain very small operations in the five main fishing ports, where we have fisheries officers who work in close collaboration with the fishing industry in those ports.

What are those ports?

Mr. Peter Heffernan

They are Rossaveal, Killybegs linked with Greencastle, Castletownbere, Dunmore East and Howth. They provide an invaluable immediate access to the fishing industry on the ground. We facilitate very active participation by the fishing industry in research surveys conducted on the national research vessels and we also have scientists who accompany fishermen on their fishing expeditions, which is hugely important in the context of strengthening the understanding and dialogue between fishermen and the scientists. This is a hugely important relationship.

Does the institute employ many staff? Does it have any income other than the grant-in-aid from the State?

Mr. Peter Heffernan

Our established number is 147, which is supported by the Exchequer. As part of our business plan and under our statute, we are encouraged and enabled to participate, through competitive processes, in a significant number of internationally-funded research activities. We punch way above our weight in this regard. We typically generate income of the order of €2 million to €3 million per annum from research earnings, which is the equivalent of a small business employing 60 graduates. We typically maintain a rotating workforce supported through competitively won — primarily European Union — research funding. Our activity in this area is significantly targeted to complement and strengthen the core service we deliver to the State in the areas of fisheries management, environmental issues relating to the seafood area and so on. That is an extremely important aspect of our ability to continue to deliver a high standard of service.

What is the Marine Institute's budget for this year?

Mr. Peter Heffernan

Between Exchequer support and external income, our budget for this year is approximately €40 million.

I have a final question for the departmental officials. Will the Department be in a position in the future to continue donating to the World Food Programme? Some €10 million was allocated for this purpose in recent years. What is the allocation for this year?

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand that allocation has increased. This is a question we are constantly asked. We have a long-standing relationship with the Food and Agriculture Organisation, FAO, and the World Food Programme. One could ask why it is our Department as opposed to Irish Aid that contributes to the scheme. However, as a food exporting country, we have a long-standing tradition of making food aid donations of this type. It has been a targeted and successful programme.

I do not mean to be critical. That level of donation was fine in times of economic buoyancy. However, charity begins at home and there will be great demands on our charity if the present crisis continues. Reports in the newspapers today refer to slumps and recall what happened in the past. I do not see how we can maintain that level of funding if we are to be generous to our own citizens. These figures must be readjusted. While we may be influential people internationally in our own minds, the citizens of this State must be our main priority. I am concerned at this level of funding. As I said, charity begins at home.

That is a policy issue,

I have given my view. The Chairman is not obliged to agree with it.

Mr. Tom Moran

Deputy O'Keeffe asked about agencies doing similar work to the Department. I understand his point. The role of a body such as the Food Safety Authority of Ireland makes a good deal of sense in that it reports to the Department of Health and Children and ultimately to the Minister in that Department. This means there is a certain amount of objectivity about the food safety operations undertaken by us. While our Department manages food safety issues in various areas, it is useful to have another body monitoring these issues and reporting to the Department of Health and Children. Given the importance of food safety issues for this State, this double lock is vital. It has proven effective in the past, particularly in the case of the pork crisis.

We heard much about intervention in the past. Is there any beef currently in intervention and, if so, how much and for how long?

Mr. Tom Moran

There is currently no beef in intervention.

That is good. I have some questions on office machinery, supplies and related services. What was the reason for the overspend of some €3.47 million under this subhead in 2007? There was an underspend of €18.7 million under the forestry and bioenergy subhead. I understand a lower than expected number of hectares were afforested in 2007 and there was a lower than expected uptake of the bioenergy scheme. What are the consequences for the Department of these shortfalls?

Mr. Tom Moran

I will deal first with the Chairman's questions on office machinery, supplies and related services. This expenditure relates largely to information technology. Expenditure was greater than estimated because of the need to employ contractors and provide for the outsourcing of information systems. Essentially, there is a requirement constantly to upgrade our information technology system. It is an enormous system. Apart from the single payment system, which is operated on a very sophisticated computer system, all our animal health control processes, including the cattle movement systems and so on, are computerised and require continuous upgrading and amendment. There are peaks and valleys in that type of expenditure.

The bioenergy scheme is a new scheme whereby we provide a national grant and also top up the European Union grant for growers of willow and miscanthus crops. These projects saw an increase in popularity at the time oil prices began to rocket and there was an increased focus on energy and climate change. They are essentially demand-led schemes. While they have been promoted in a range of ways, it is sometimes the case that the estimated hectarage is not reached. However, we are making some progress in promoting them.

In the past we have grant aided forestry machinery for use in harvesting bioenergy crops and so on. Ultimately, however, it is a niche area which received a significant but apparently temporary boost at the time energy costs peaked. Incidentally, this boost in production contributed to high cereal prices in the United States, where the price of maize and so on rocketed because fuel rather than food was the mantra in terms of land usage. It is an important area and we continue to promote it. However, as I said, it is essentially a demand-led scheme. Although it provides an attractive level of grant aid, it does not have the reach one might expect.

In other words, complacency has set in once again as a result of the temporary dip in oil prices.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is one way of looking at it. I agree completely with the Chairman regarding the importance of land usage for alternative energy crops. In the longer term, there must be greater activity in that regard. Equally, however, when cereal prices increase as they did due largely to energy usage in the United States, people begin to look differently at what they do with their land.

Are landowners always notified in advance of farm visits relating to the REP scheme or the single farm payment?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, it depends on the type of inspection. There are 18 separate statutory management instruments which must be controlled in a farm visit. In order to facilitate everybody and to undertake this work as efficiently as possible, we have telescoped all of them into one. On the other hand, some member states have different agencies managing different aspects of inspections, with some in charge of environmental issues, others looking after food safety and so on. We are responsible for all of them. Some elements of the inspections allow us to give 14 days' notice, some allow for 48 hours' notice, and others allow no notice. These stipulations are set at European level. The elements allowing for no notice include those relating to food safety, feed safety and animal welfare.

I asked specifically about inspections relating to the REP scheme and the single farm payment.

Mr. Tom Moran

I referred in my response to inspections for the single farm payment.

Must REP scheme inspections always be notified in advance?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, REP scheme inspectors give approximately 48 hours' notice.

When someone complains to the Department's customer service body, is the officer who visited made aware of the complaint? Is there a consequential danger of subsequent victimisation?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am unsure whether the Deputy has a particular case in mind.

No, I was speaking generally.

Mr. Tom Moran

It would be useless, were the end result of a complaint being made against anyone in the Department to be that it led to victimisation or fear of victimisation. I would hazard to say no, absolutely not. It would be looked into. A complaint made to our customer services will be followed up with the people involved.

Is a person against whom a complaint is made notified as to the complainant and asked to answer the charge, if a charge has been made?

Mr. Tom Moran

The specifics of a complaint must be given to such a person. A person who makes a complaint to the customer services section of the Department would be obliged to give the details of what was involved and of the circumstances. Thereafter, the person against whom the complaint was made would be obliged to give his or her version of the same events and that version would be examined. I am absolutely convinced that there would be no follow-on from that in terms of the victimisation of a complainant. However, there would be investigation of a complaint.

While I do not suggest that, there certainly would be fear of victimisation, which would be natural.

Mr. Tom Moran

I could not comment. I wish to assure the Deputy that there would not be victimisation.

To put everything into context, how many full-time farmers are there in Ireland? What is the average level of support from the European Union?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Chairman's final question is difficult. There are 132,000 farmers and while I do not recall the percentage who are full time, a high percentage of them are part time. I believe that approximately 50% or 60% of farmers are part time.

That figure will rise as many part-time farmers will lose their occupations. In the future, they will be obliged to become full-time farmers, regardless of whether they are able to live on it. My personal experience suggests that this figure will rise considerably. Many small farmers in the Connemara area worked in construction in Galway city and farmed in their spare time. They are now full-time farmers, whether they like it or not, because no construction jobs are available.

Mr. Tom Moran

I agree with Deputy McCormack's point. In recent years, part-time farming has fit in with rural development, in that unused labour, because of the smallness of the farm or whatever, was able to go into the building trade. We will be monitoring this issue.

As for the level of support, the average single payment is approximately €11,000. The average disadvantaged area payment is approximately €2,400 and the average REP scheme payment is approximately €7,000.

If there are no further questions, I invite Mr. Buckley to say a few words.

Mr. John Buckley

I have very little to add to what I said in my opening statement. On a point of clarification, mention was made of intervention trading. Trading only took place during the year on sugar and butter. No trading on beef took place and intervention stocks at year end were almost negligible, having fallen to a value of €3.5 million. From my office's point of view, we have listened to the debate and will factor into our future audits anything that is of relevance, especially pertaining to the areas of scheme design and so on.

I thank Mr. Moran and Mr. Heffernan for their clear and straight responses to all the questions put, which were appreciated by members. I ask the committee to note Vote 31 — Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and to dispose of chapter 9.1 on the consolidation of single payment entitlements, and chapter 8 of Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General dealing with the Marine Institute. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee will meet again next Thursday, 19 February, when it will consider Vote 9 — Office of the Revenue Commissioners, as well as Chapters 3.1 to 3.7 of the 2007 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The witnesses withdrew.

The next public meeting will be held on Thursday, 19 February 2008. There will be a special meeting next Wednesday at 5.30 p.m. with our counterparts from Northern Ireland We will resume on Thursday at 10 a.m. for the meeting with the Revenue Commissioners.

The committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 19 February 2009.
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