COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 21 Jul 2011

Business of Committee

Chairman

The minutes of the meeting of 14 July have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

We will deal with correspondence received since our meeting on 14 July. On that date we received item No. 3.1, correspondence from P. A. Dorrian & Company Solicitors, Buncrana, County Donegal on behalf of Mr. Crumlish. The correspondence is to be noted. The previous correspondence was also noted and acknowledged. As this case is outside the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, we have no role in the matter.

Item No. 3.2 is correspondence received on 18 July from Mr. Kenneth Nolan, Government accounting section, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, re the minute of the Minister for Finance on the first interim report of the 30th Committee of Public Accounts on the loss of fiduciary taxes arising from the abuse of limited liability. This correspondence is to be noted and published.

Item No. 3.3 is correspondence we received on 20 July from Deputy Anne Ferris re Wicklow County Council. This correspondence is to be noted and published. While it is not primarily a matter for the committee, I propose that we forward the correspondence to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government for his observations, as it advocates a change in the law. Does the Deputy wish to comment?

Deputy Anne Ferris

That is fine and I appreciate the Chairman's proposal. The legislation dealing with compulsory purchase orders will need to be changed. Local authorities are not within our remit, but the Department is. It is a scandalous waste of taxpayers' money that local authorities are being forced to pay prices agreed during the boom. In particular, Wicklow County Council is being asked to pay €3 million - a conservative price at the time - for land that is now only worth approximately €300,000. That is the reason I have brought the matter to the committee's attention. The Housing Finance Agency must fund the loan. I understand the Department must inspect the land and confirm it is worth the money the council is to pay for it. If so, the Department's inspectors cannot claim that land now worth approximately €300,000 is worth €3 million. However, the council's hands are tied and, if the loan is not approved, it will need to find the money in its own budget. In this day and age when local authorities are strapped for cash, this is not an option. Therefore, the legislation dealing with CPOs must be changed in order that taxpayers' money is not wasted.

Deputy Simon Harris

I agree with the Deputy and thank her for bringing this matter to the committee's attention. Councillors in County Wicklow were forced to authorise this payment which the Deputy correctly described as a scandalous waste of taxpayers' money. The Department cannot sit idly by and not agree to meet councils to rectify the matter. It a waste of taxpayers' money at a time when local services are struggling. I thank the Chairman for proposing that the correspondence be forwarded.

Chairman

I ask for the committee's agreement to forward the correspondence to the Minister. Perhaps we might ask him to deal with the matter urgently in order that we might receive a response and, depending on the response receive, revisit the matter.

Mr. John Buckley

In the autumn the committee will have an opportunity to examine the land aggregation scheme which deals with landbanks purchased by local authorities and financed by the HFA to the tune of hundreds of millions of euro that are now falling back on the public purse under a subhead in the Vote for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The committee could place the Accounting Officer on notice that it will ask these questions in the autumn when she appears before it, as it will be examining the Department's overall role in managing assets surplus to requirements in the local authority system that are now falling to be funded by central government.

Deputy Anne Ferris

That is correct. The land in question was earmarked in 2004 for use in the construction of social housing. As we know, it will remain idle because there is no funding from the Department for the provision of social housing. If the council ever decides to dispose of the land, it will only receive a fraction of the price it has been forced to pay. I hope this matter will be raised in the autumn.

Chairman

As well as writing to the Minister, we will accept the Comptroller and Auditor General's suggestion that we put the Accounting Officer on notice.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman

Item No. 3.4 is correspondence dated 20 July from Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Secretary General, Department of Finance, re his opening statement. This correspondence is to be noted and published.

Item No. 4 is a report on statements and accounts received since our meeting on 14 July. Item No. 4.1 is correspondence received from the National Consumer Agency, while item No. 4.2 is from safefood and item No. 4.3 from the Health Insurance Authority. The correspondence is to be noted.

Item No. 5 is the work programme. The draft work programme has been circulated to members. As they can see, we have included a number of Departments up until October when the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 2010 will be published. We will have a work planning meeting at the end of September to fill additional dates to Christmas. Members of the same party may change speaking slots for the autumn if a particular day does not suit.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Unfortunately, I will not be here on 15 September, when I am the number two questioner. If that change can be facilitated, I would appreciate it.

Chairman

It can be.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Are representatives of NAMA due to appear before Christmas?

Chairman

We are awaiting the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General to see what he highlights or gives priority to and we will examine those agencies in the discussion on that.

Deputy Shane Ross

It looks as if the work programme is set in stone but I presume that is not the case. Is it just a guide?

Chairman

It is just a guide.

Deputy Shane Ross

Can we change it at any stage to introduce a new subject?

Chairman

Yes, we are trying to set a structure to inform the accounting officers and put them on notice of the dates they will be expected to appear before us. If something should happen or if the committee decides on a different priority, we can do that by agreement. If members such as Deputy Eoghan Murphy have an issue in respect of dates or times, they can make arrangements as they wish and inform the clerk to the committee. Is the draft work programme agreed? Agreed.

Item No. 6 is the 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General Appropriation Accounts, Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance: chapter 1, central government financial outturn 2009; chapter 5 - financial commitments under public private partnerships; chapter 6 - banking stabilisation measures (resumed); chapter 7 - central government: European Union - financial transactions 2009; and finance accounts 2009.

We are awaiting the arrival of the officials from the Department of Finance. Obviously, Deputy Ross, they are fine tuning their final statement. This is an opportunity to put the accounting officers on notice with regard to their submissions to the committee. We discussed this briefly yesterday with some members in the course of a briefing for this meeting. In future, we will ask for statements to the committee to be short and to the point, allowing members more time to raise issues and put questions. While we may reflect on 2009 in today's meeting, members have every intention of drawing issues of the day into the meeting to discuss what was happening in 2010 or 2011. Accounting officers should take note of this. One week before the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts, accounting officers should furnish members with an up-to-date brief of the issues raised in the accounts being examined in order that we can compare what was asked of them in 2009 arising from reports and so that we can see what progress has been made. It is fair to put accounting officers on notice. As the clerk to the committee agrees on the dates, each Department will appear before the committee, he can remind them of our intention to bring up-to-date matters into the debate and he will ask for that brief one week before the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 10.15 a.m and resumed at 10.20 a.m.