COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 6 Oct 2011

Business of Committee

Chairman

Are the minutes of the meeting of 29 September agreed? Agreed.

We will proceed to deal with correspondence received since our meeting of Thursday, 29 September. Item No. 3.1 is correspondence dated 20 September 2011 from Mr. Stephen A. Lydon, Tuohy & Co. Solicitors, Ballina, County Mayo, regarding correspondence between Ms Nora Beattie and the Department of Education and Skills. This correspondence is to be noted. We have also received correspondence from the Accounting Officer of the Department of Education and Skills on the issue, including a response to Ms Beattie's solicitors. There are no ongoing issues for the committee to deal with.

Item No. 3.2 is correspondence received on 29 September from an anonymous source regarding Dún Laoghaire Golf Club. The correspondence is noted. As the availability of tax exemptions is a policy matter, we will forward the correspondence to the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance for appropriate action. There is ongoing correspondence, anonymous and without an address, on the issue. More arrived this week. I do not know whether members received it. If not, I will circulate it.

Item No. 3.3 is correspondence dated 21 September from Mr. Noel Wardick, former head of the international department of the Irish Red Cross, forwarding a letter sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding the Irish Red Cross in Chapter 32 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report for 2010. This correspondence is to be noted and published. We will be dealing with Chapter 32, Financial Control in the Irish Red Cross Society, at next week's meeting and can raise issues relating to it then. The correspondence will be forwarded to the Department of Defence. The Accounting Officer will be available next Thursday.

Item No. 3.4 is correspondence dated 31 August from Mr. Martin Nolan, chief executive of Bus Éireann, regarding the school transport scheme. This correspondence is to be noted and published. It arises in response to material received by the committee from the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland which alleged that the funding received for school transport was being used to subsidise other parts of the Bus Éireann service. We can take up the central funding issue with the Accounting Officers of the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport when the Votes for their Departments are examined by the committee. Last week, I mentioned to Mr. Buckley that we should examine that subsidy and the school transport system in terms of value for money, given the amount of complaints and queries we all receive as public representatives. Sometimes an imbalance occurs between the funding being granted and how it is then used with the operators who do not seem to get great benefit or profitability from the scheme.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The exchange of views from various bodies who have corresponded with us on this matter is interesting. Do the coach operators, whose organisation triggered all this, see this response as a matter of course? Is this shared with them or when it is published do they have to proactively look at it?

Chairman

We can send it to them. Normally it would be published and would not necessarily go back to them. In this case, however, we can send them a copy.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am interested because there is a bit of detail going on in terms of their response and the claims they made. If we are going to re-examine it - we all get contacted about this - it would be interesting to see what their perspective is and what Iarnród Éireann is saying. It is only a small point.

Chairman

No. In terms of procedure and the value for money reports that Mr. Buckley does, when we mention it here, is that something he will take up or is there a more formal way of approaching this by way of a request to him?

Mr. John Buckley

As I indicated, we are doing our scoping programme for this year to see what we will actually work on in the coming 12 months. I have pencilled it in as something we will look at. If it turns out that we do not think it is worth looking at, I will come back to the committee and explain.

Chairman

Okay. Item 3.5, correspondence dated 23 September 2011 from Mr. Tommy Moran, chairman, Concerned Irish Citizens, forwarding a submission concerning Quinn Insurance. This correspondence is to be noted. As members are aware we have received other correspondence from this individual regarding Quinn Insurance in the past few weeks. The matter is not one for the Committee of Public Accounts. I propose that we forward the correspondence to the Joint Committee on Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance for appropriate follow-up and direct reply.

Item 3.6, correspondence dated 29 September 2011 from the National Treasury Management Agency providing updated information on matters scheduled for examination at the meeting of 6 October 2011, as previously requested by the committee. This is to be noted and published.

Item 3.7, correspondence dated 30 September 2011 from Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection providing information requested at the meeting of 15 September 2011. This is to be noted and published.

Item 3.8, correspondence dated 4 October 2011 from Ms Brigid McManus, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, concerning correspondence with Ms Nora Beattie. This is to be noted and published. It is part of the matter that was raised earlier.

Item 3.9, correspondence from Mr. John Corrigan, chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency re his opening statement. That is to be noted and published.

Chapter 4 deals with reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 29 September 2011. They are as follows: Items 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 will be examined today. Do members wish to refer to any thing arising from the aforementioned items?

As regards correspondence, I have replied to the letter from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, which came back to us concerning the working of this committee and other matters we raised. The letter we received was heavily bureaucratic and did not even reflect his position. I have replied to that, reflecting on what previous committees had sought and where we now stand. What is particularly relevant to the letter sent back to him, is that out of 22 recommendations - which is the only thing we can do in terms of a minute to the Minister for Finance, as it was back then in 2010 - there was not a single reply. That reflects poorly on the workings of this committee. There is a need for all to take it more seriously.

Item 5 concerns the committee's work programme, which is to be noted. I am raising it here for better consideration because sometimes it appears at the end of the meeting. Last week, members suggested that we schedule Chapter 30 - Sports Campus Programme as soon as possible. We will examine this issue on 10 November and issues relating to Dublin Waterworld can be raised then. Deputy Donohoe is interested in that matter.

Polling in the presidential election is on Thursday, 27 October, so I propose we should hold our meeting on Wednesday that week. I am open to suggestions from members but I do not believe we should have it on polling day. Is Wednesday, 26 October agreed? Agreed. The following week, the Dáil is not sitting so we will not be meeting then.

With regard to any other business, I wish to determine whether members have any other issues they wish to raise before we call witnesses to appear before the committee. In addition, perhaps we can agree the agenda for Thursday, 13 October.

We will get a briefing on the proposed new powers for committees to hold inquiries at the start of next Thursday's meeting in private or in public, whichever way members want it. We sought this briefing on the legislation, which will be given by a senior official from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Do members want it in private or public session? It is agreed that we will continue with it in public session as it concerns everyone.

Deputy Anne Ferris

The reports and briefings we receive are excellent and I wish to thank the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for producing them. I do not think, however, that we are getting them in sufficient time to go through them with a fine toothcomb. It is possible to get the reports earlier? We got the briefing notes yesterday.

Chairman

Yes, we got them yesterday. When would the Deputy suggest that we should receive them - the previous week?

Deputy Anne Ferris

Perhaps on the Tuesday but if we got them the previous week that would be excellent. Given that we got them yesterday afternoon, there is a very limited time in which to prepare for the next day, particularly if one is a lead questioner.

Mr. John Buckley

We will do anything we can to facilitate members. In fact, we were pushing for Tuesday briefings to allow a day for ourselves. I have to brief myself as well. We were pushing for Tuesday briefings but it does not always suit members. We will do whatever we can to facilitate members of the committee.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Members have to be here after 2 p.m. on Tuesdays.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The information needs to be relatively fresh as well, because if it was too far back it would not be.

Chairman

We will check with members to see if Tuesday suits them.

Mr. John Buckley

The Chairman may want to consider whether the committee wants to divorce the physical file from the oral briefing and get the file earlier. If that would suit the committee, it could probably be put in train.

Chairman

Is Mr. Buckley suggesting that we would get the file the previous week and the briefing on Tuesday?

Mr. John Buckley

Yes. It might take me about a fortnight to put that into play.

Chairman

It is eminently sensible. Next week's business is the 2010 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts: Vote 36: Defence; Vote 24: Charitable Donations and Bequests; Vote 37: Army Pensions; and Chapter 32: Financial Control in the Irish Red Cross. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will now call the witnesses to appear before the committee.