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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 13 Oct 2011

Business of Committee

Mr. John Buckley (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Are the minutes of the meeting of 6 October agreed? Agreed. We will proceed to deal with correspondence received since our meeting of Thursday, 6 October. Correspondence from Mr. Michael Howard, Secretary General of the Department of Defence, providing updated information on matters scheduled for examination today. This correspondence is to be noted and published. Correspondence received on 6 October from the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, forwarding documentation from Mr. Noel Wardick regarding alleged malpractice at the Irish Red Cross. This correspondence is to be noted and published. The committee will examine chapter 32, Financial Control of the Irish Red Cross Society today, giving members an opportunity to raise these matters, if they so wish.

Correspondence received on 5 October from Mr. Humphrey Deegan in regard to the audit committee, Youthreach, Macroom. This correspondence is to be noted and forwarded to the Accounting Officer of the Department of Education and Skills for detailed note on the issues raised and appropriate follow up. Correspondence received on 7 October from Mr. Seán Gorman, Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, in regard to investigations into allegations previously made to the committee by Mr. Paul Russell. This correspondence is to be noted.

Correspondence received on 6 October from Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Secretary General of the Department of Finance, in regard to the redaction of papers circulated to the committee, which were to be released under a freedom of information request. This correspondence is to be noted. Correspondence received on 11 October from Mr. Michael Howard, Secretary General of the Department of Defence, providing a note previously requested by the committee and correspondence from Mr. Myles Duffy, Glenageary, County Dublin, regarding Vote 36 on the Irish Red Cross Society. This correspondence is to be noted and a copy of this correspondence is to be forwarded to the original complainant and members may follow up this during the course of today's public session.

Correspondence received on 11 October from Mr. Michael Howard, Secretary General of the Department of Defence. His opening statement is to be noted and published. Correspondence received on 12 October from Mr. Noel Wardick, the former head of the International Department of the Irish Red Cross Society in regard to forwarding correspondence from Transparency International Ireland in relation to the Irish Red Cross Society. This is to be noted and published. Again members will have the opportunity to raise the issues relating to this correspondence at today's examination.

Correspondence dated 12 October from Ms Josephine Feehily, chairman of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, providing information requested at the meeting of 22 September 2011 to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 12 October from Mr. Paul O'Toole, director general of FÁS, forwarding correspondence from Mazars regarding inaccurate information given to the Public Accounts Committee. This correspondence is to be noted and published. Members will recall that we got legal advice from the parliamentary legal adviser at our meeting of 5 October and on foot of that advice the committee wrote to FÁS stating it should seek the reasons for the findings and incorrect information, which was given to the committee in 2008 and 2009. On Tuesday last the committee secretariat was informed that the High Court case between FÁS and one of its employees, Mr. Greg Craig, whose previous complaints had been investigated by Mazars, which made the finding that incorrect information had been given to the PAC had been settled. As members will have seen in newspapers, the terms of the settlement included a provision which would enable FÁS to deal with the concerns of this committee.

Late yesterday evening a letter was received from FÁS which enclosed Mazars letters, giving an outline of the findings of where incorrect information was given to the committee. If members want an opportunity to study that letter, we can defer it until next week or if we are happy with the explanation given, we can dispose of it today. In saying this, the 2010 accounts for FÁS will be examined by the committee at its meeting of 1 December and we can examine in more detail the issues raised in the Mazars report of the settlement reached with its former employee.

Are members satisfied that an adequate explanation has been received from FÁS or shall we defer it for further consideration? We can take it in the context of our meeting in December. On a related matter, it appears that extracts from legal advice given to the committee by the parliamentary legal adviser were quoted in news media of last Friday. The legal advice is generally given to the committee on a trust basis and all legal advices are confidential and deemed to be committee papers, which can only be released by a decision of the committee. I ask colleagues to bear this in mind when dealing with such work in terms of issues that might arise at this committee. I ask the clerk to circulate a memorandum to members on the issue, so that they are informed.

What newspaper carried this?

The Irish Daily Mail. It covered the FÁS issue and it had certain quotations that were directly from the legal advice we had received. We can circulate it to members. I am drawing attention to the fact that we received that legal advice in committee and it is important that we show respect to the legal adviser for the legal advice given.

With regard to item 4.3, has there been a follow up to that correspondence?

This relates to Youthreach, Macroom. The correspondence is to be forwarded to the Accounting Officer in the Department of Education and Skills for a detailed note on the issues raised and for an appropirate follow up. It will come back to us again.

Will it be dealt with when we discuss the VECs?

The issue of the VECs and the reports will be dealt with by the committee and that issue can be raised at that time also. We have not set a date for that meeting, but given our work programme, more than likely, it will be taken in the new year.

In relation to the request to the HSE for a breakdown of the absenteeism figures, did it ever get back to us with these figures? I wish to make the point that I saw these figures in a national newspaper. We requested this information, but I do not think we have received it. I certainly have not received it.

The Deputy is correct that we requested it at the last meeting and if Deputies remember, at previous meetings I asked the HSE to ensure that it got back to us in a timely fashion so that the information would come to us first and not to the media.

It appeared on the front page of a national newspaper. We still have not received it after requesting it. Could we follow up on that?

We should follow up on that. We could write to the reporter.

Have we received a response from the Revenue Commissioners who were to provide correspondence on an investigation that was carried out into the directors and executives of the banks? Did we receive the follow up correspondence?

Yes, item 4.9, correspondence dated 12 October from Ms Josephine Feehily, chairman of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, providing information requested at the meeting. We have asked for that to be noted and published. Item 5 is reports and statement of accounts received since the meeting of 6 October 2011, covered in item 4.1 to 4.3. All of these to be noted. The Deputy has a copy of the ongoing work programme to be noted.

Do members wish to raise anything under any other business? We brought this item forward to help us deal more efficiently with the witnesses.

Can we agree the agenda for our meeting of 20 October, which will be the 2010 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts: Vote 15 - Valuation Office, chapter 20, Financial Control and Governance. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will now call the witnesses to appear before the committee.

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