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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2011

Business of Committee

Are the minutes of the meeting on 17 November agreed? Agreed. There are no matters arising.

Last week, during a discussion on the Pensions Board, a question was raised about the suitability of a third party, Tiernan O'Mahony. His name was mentioned and out of good practice, we should write to him, give him a transcript of the meeting and give him a right to reply. The commentary on him was extensive. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item deals with correspondence received since the meeting on 17 November 2011. No. 4.1 is correspondence received on 17 November from Ms Clare Ryan, CEO of the National Educational Welfare Board. It is a briefing paper on chapter 2 of the special report No. 74 by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is to be noted and published. No. 4.2 is correspondence received on 16 November 2011 from Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. This was a briefing paper on Vote 41 of the appropriation accounts and Chapter 49, dealing with child care facilities, of the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is to be noted and published.

No. 4.3 is correspondence dated 16 November 2011 from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, who is the Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, forwarding additional documentation regarding CSID and Dublin Waterworld. This is to be noted. Members can see from the covering letters that some of the information provided is confidential, so therefore we will not publish it. I ask committee members not to distribute it to third parties. No. 4.4 is correspondence received on 16 November 2011 from Mr. John Moriarty of Dublin Waterworld Limited, in reference to the PAC meeting on 10 November 2011, which is to be noted. This correspondence is to be forwarded to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for a note on the issues raised. We will return to Campus Stadium Ireland in 2012.

In fairness to the officials in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, they sent a wealth of material to us about No. 4.3 in response to our questioning. I would like to acknowledge that because I was persistent in asking for it. The eighth letter in that correspondence provides advice about the VAT claim which came up. It is the most important letter and it makes for very interesting reading. When we come back to this in the new year, we should certainly use it.

At that meeting, we agreed that we would invite the VAT expert from the Revenue Commissioners to the meeting as we were not able to get replies at the last meeting. That official will be able to deal with the issues. I think the official from the CSO will be there as well. This will take place in early 2012.

It is in connection with Waterworld and the Valuation Office. Issues were raised and the questions were not answered because the witnesses had to refer to somebody else. We are bringing them all in the next day.

No. 4.5 is correspondence received from Mr. Michael O'Shea on 15 November 2011, CEO of the Irish Heart Foundation, in respect of tobacco tax. This is to be noted and published. Correspondence is to be forwarded to the Department of Finance for a note on the issues raised.

No. 4.6 is correspondence received from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on 15 November 2011 in respect of public service reform. This is to be noted and published. Members can see from the correspondence that the Minister will make himself available to brief the committee and I propose that we arrange to meet with him on this matter. We have issues relating to his Department that are to be examined on 8 December, so it may be appropriate if the Minister briefed us that morning. We could then have a separate examination on departmental issues after the account with the Accounting Officer. We will have a briefing with the Minister and then the meeting. We will check if that is a suitable date for him.

No. 4.7 is correspondence received from Mr. Eoin O'Shea of the European Court of Auditors on 10 November 2011, forwarding a copy of the European Court of Auditors' annual report, covering the EU budget for 2010. This is to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 9 November 2011 is from Mr. David Aylward in respect of the appointment of a director of Citibank Europe PLC. This is to be noted. The letter raises a concern about an appointment by Citibank. While this appointment may have had to be approved by the Financial Regulator, my understanding is that the regulator is not answerable to this committee in respect of such decisions. We will reply to Mr. Aylward, pointing out our position.

No. 4.9 is correspondence received from Mr. Thomas Woodbyrne of Woodbyrne Estates on 3 November 2011 in respect of the Private Residential Tenancies Board. This is to be noted and the correspondence forwarded to the PRTB for a note on the issue raised.

No. 4.10 is correspondence received from Ms Brigid McManus, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, on 18 November 2011, providing a note on correspondence previously forwarded by the committee from Mr. Gerry Mullins of the Coach Tourism and Transport Council regarding the alleged misuse of school transport funds. This is to be noted and published. A copy of the note is to be forwarded, with the original complaint, to Mr. Mullins.

No. 4.11 is correspondence received from Ms Clare Ryan, CEO of the National Education Welfare Board, on 22 November, which contains her opening statement. This is to be noted and published. No .4.12 is correspondence received from Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, in respect of the opening statement. This is to be noted and published. No. 4.12 is correspondence received from Mr. Kenneth Nolan of the government accounting unit of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, forwarding the minute of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in response to the Committee of Public Accounts' second interim report on procurement in the prison service and public procurement matters generally. This is to be noted and published. No. 5 is reports on statements and accounts received since the meeting of 7 November 2011. Everything from 5.1 down to 5.22 is to be noted; is that agreed? Agreed. The draft spring work programme was circulated at last week's meeting. Is it agreed to adopt the draft? Agreed. Departments will now be notified and the programme can be amended by the committee, taking into account our decisions today with regard to the inquiry into the financial collapse.

I do not want to delay the meeting, but may I suggest something the committee could consider in the future? An issue that comes up about this time in the budget cycle every year is the failure of Departments to talk to each other. We have had an opportunity to talk to the Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection and the Secretary General of the Department of Finance, but what would be interesting - I do not know whether this is something the Comptroller and Auditor General might consider - would be to consider the sharing of information and IT systems between, specifically, the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners to deal with issues such as children's allowance. There are obviously policy issues that are not within our remit, but there is also the potential for loss of funds and fraud, which has an impact on the Government. It would be a useful piece of work either to have a meeting with the relevant individuals from the Departments or for the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the issue so that we may consider it.

It is an ongoing issue that every time the question "Why can this not be done?" is asked, one is told it cannot be done because the computer systems do not talk to each other. It is grating on the nerves of the public. This is an issue for us, as the Committee of Public Accounts, to consider.

Mr. John Buckley

I will certainly have a look at it. Clearly, those matters are touched on in the individual reports. There are issues both within Departments and between Departments.

Yes. It is the issue between Departments that I would like to see dealt with.

Are there any other issues that members want to raise?

There is one brief point that I mentioned to the Clerk. I would be interested in doing some work, with the support of the Comptroller and Auditor General, on the use of rent supplement and issues arising in this regard. There is a great opportunity to integrate the payment of rent supplement into other things that the State is trying to achieve. I have concerns that much of the money is being used in a way that is not beneficial either to tenants or to the wider society. If we could schedule either some work or a report on this during the coming term, it would be useful.

Mr. John Buckley

I did not actually mention it to members before, but we are doing some work for next year's report on the supplementary welfare allowance. As rent supplement constitutes about 54% of this, it will be unavoidable for us to touch on it during the course of the examination. In addition, we examined this matter in 2006, and the same issues still pertain, such as whether it would be warranted to bring down the rent allowance ceiling in view of the rent levels in the market. By this, I mean bringing the ceilings down more quickly in response to the market. There is much work to be done there. I will consider this and reply to Deputy Donohoe on the specifics of the scope of any such examination.

Can we now agree the agenda for our meeting on 1 December? We will be discussing the FÁS annual report 2010. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will now call the witnesses.

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