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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 9 Feb 2012

Report on County Cork Vocational Education Committee 2008

Ms Brigid McManus (Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills), Mr. Seán Ashe (Chief Executive Officer, County Kildare Vocational Education Committee), Mr. Ted Owens (Chief Executive Officer, City of Cork Vocational Education Committee), and Ms Joan Russell (Chief Executive Officer, County Cork Vocational Education Committee) called and examined.

We will deal with item No. 7, which pertains to Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills, as well as to the following section 7 reports: report on County Kildare VEC 2012, report on City of Cork VEC 2009 and report on County Cork VEC 2008.

I advise witnesses they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence with regard to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Brigid McManus, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, and invite her to introduce her officials.

Ms Brigid McManus

I thank the Chairman. I am accompanied by Ms Mary Cregg, principal officer, building unit, Mr. Matthew Ryan, principal officer dealing with VECs, and Ms Bláithín Dowling and Mr. Eamonn Moran from my finance unit. Seated behind me are two other officials, Mr. Philip Crosby and Mr. Seamus Hempenstall, who deal with general public service structure issues and with further education.

I also welcome Ms Joan Russell, chief executive officer, County Cork VEC, Mr. Ted Owens, chief executive officer, City of Cork VEC, and Mr. Seán Ashe, chief executive officer, County Kildare VEC.

I invite the representative of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to introduce himself.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

My name is Dermot Nolan.

Have I left anyone out? I note there is a range of officials in attendance.

I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. John Buckley, to introduce the Vote and section 7 reports.

Mr. John Buckley

I thank the Chairman.

In looking briefly at the Vote, in 2010 the Department of Education and Skills spent a net €8.7 billion. The appropriation account received a clear report. Most matters of a general reporting nature now are dealt with in special reports. Special reports 74 and 75 were issued in September 2010 and looked at a range of issues, including resource management and performance in Irish universities and payments from a strategic innovation fund. A further special report is currently in preparation.

Turning to the vocational education sector, the accounts of all VECs have been audited and certified for all years up to 31 December 2010. Currently, there are 33 vocational education committees with a plan to reduce that number to 16 education and training boards which will, in time, incorporate the functions currently carried out in FÁS training centres. In the case of VECs where accountability issues arise out of audits, they are reported in what are known as section 7(4) reports under the 1993 Act that governs my office.

Three such reports are before the committee today. They relate to the VECs in County Cork, the city of Cork and County Kildare. In the case of County Cork VEC, it became involved in an innovative project designed to develop computer-generated animation to be used in teaching in second level schools. The VEC committed to a set of lease payments to a financial institution that would cover the full costs. The project was not completed and full value was not got for the €162,000 in payments. However, equipment worth €99,000 was retained and recycled by the VEC and is used as part of its ongoing work.

We were concerned with a number of aspects of the deal including the following: the lack of ministerial approval for entering into the lease; the procurement of the related equipment being done by the company and therefore falling outside public procurement rules; the fact that the financial risk rested with the committee, although the copyright over all software and documentation would belong to the company; the fact that the contract was inadequate to identify the party with whom the business was being transacted and therefore apparently unenforceable; and the fact that the recipient of the onward payments from the financial institution ultimately could not be identified.

In the case of the City of Cork VEC, one of its further education colleges had overstated its student numbers over a five-year period, which resulted in an over-allocation of staffing and some additional funding as a result. In addition, staff involved in information and communications technology, ICT, procurement at that college also owned companies that were suppliers to the VEC. In this regard, €161,000 of purchasing was done with a company owned by a member of staff and that member had a role in procuring some of the supplies. In addition, €25,000 worth of goods and services was supplied by a further company that had connections with staff members. The procurement sampled by the internal audit in respect of one year found it was not competitive and involved the company being paid an administrative fee on top of prices sourced from catalogues and from online sources or, separately, getting the business based on price comparisons that were not valid because they did not relate to common specifications.

In the case of Kildare VEC there were also shortcomings in procurement. In the information, communications and technology, ICT, area, documentation could not be provided at the time of the audit to evidence whether certain procurement had been competitive. Separately, because of population developments in this VEC area, it is involved in a considerable construction programme. In attempting to sell its old school in Naas and to build a replacement, the VEC found that due to the downturn, the purchaser of the old school could not complete the transaction and the proceeds were not available to fund its new building. The Department has put in capital funds of €20 million and the old school now is being used as a gaelcholáiste.

The related procurement was not competitive in that the design team that managed the projects associated with the new school at a cost of €2.5 million was taken over from a developer who donated the site and paid for the design of the building. The project manager was paid €830,000 without being selected on the basis of competitive tendering and the auctioneers retained to sell the old school were paid €139,000 without competitive tendering for that service.

Overall, some lessons from all the instances that were noted on audit might be that all substantial procurement should be competitive and a tracking of non-competitive procurement on the lines of that done in Government Departments should be considered in the case of the VECs. In addition, while evolving new approaches to teaching and learning clearly is desirable, some processes to approve major related expenditure should be put in place and central mechanisms for advising on ICT should be employed in all cases. Furthermore, periodic internal audit reviews should be conducted of the grounding of returns that determine financial allocations. Ideally, national procurement frameworks should be used in purchasing ICT equipment and to the extent that they are not adequate for particular sectors, they should be reviewed

Given the scale of non-competitive procurement that was noted, especially in construction related services, it would be desirable to issue some guidance and periodic reminders to ensure that public business is allocated in an open and transparent way. Finally, all persons engaged in procurement should be covered by the requirements of the ethics legislation.

I thank Mr. Buckley and invite the Accounting Officer to give her opening statement.

Ms Brigid McManus

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make this statement concerning the examination of the 2010 appropriation accounts for Vote 26. As requested, I have forwarded some advance briefing to the committee and so will keep this opening statement short. The briefing note provided outlines the structure of the Vote for my Department and gives details regarding the main components of expenditure, together with information regarding expenditure on the Vote in 2010 and 2011. As the Comptroller and Auditor General already has indicated, there were no specific chapters on the Department in the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2010 report.

Vote 26 pays the salaries and expenses of the Department of Education and Skills to support a range of activities at all levels of the education sector. In 2010, gross expenditure from Vote 26 was €9.35 billion, while the provisional outturn for 2011 was €8.87 billion. This expenditure funds education and training across all sectors. In 2010-11, there were approximately 1,028,000 persons in full-time education in institutions aided by the Department. This included 510,000 students at first level, 356,000 students at second level and further education and 162,000 full-time students at third level. There also were approximately 172,000 participants in part-time education and 103,000 persons who completed FÁS-funded training and apprenticeship programmes.

Members of the committee will see that expenditure on pay and pensions accounts for a very significant portion of overall expenditure on the Vote. Out of total current expenditure in 2010 of €8.56 billion, pay expenditure accounted for €5.4 billion or 63%, while pensions expenditure accounted for €1 billion or 12%, an overall total of 75% on pay and pensions. The pay expenditure covered the cost of approximately 95,000 whole-time equivalents - there actually are more people as such - across the education sector in 2010, including slightly more than 60,000 teachers and 10,800 special needs assistants employed in 4,052 schools and 18,500 employees in 32 higher education institutions. This equates to approximately one third of overall public sector employment.

The 2010 Vote accounts under scrutiny today were subject to change arising from the transfer of functions between Departments, which took effect from 1 May 2010. This has an impact if one compares the 2010 figures with the 2011 figures included in our briefing. Certain functions regarding skills development and training, which previously had been vested in the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, were transferred to the renamed Department of Education and Skills. The new functions are shown under subheads G1 to G8 on the Vote. In addition, certain research functions were transferred in the other direction from our Vote to the office of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation.

The structure of the Vote was changed again during 2011 as a result of further transfers of functions. Responsibility for the school completion programme and the National Educational Welfare Board were transferred from this Department to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, while responsibility for FÁS employment programmes was transferred to the Department of Social Protection. They were actually resting, pending some legislation, with us because there always was a service level agreement with the Department of Social Protection. Funding responsibility for nursing education also was transferred to this Department from the Department of Health.

During 2010, capital expenditure of €786.5 million was incurred on the Vote, including €79 million of deferred surrender from 2009. Some of the key areas of capital expenditure included expenditure on the schools capital programme amounting to almost €526 million. The projects concerned delivered just under 8,900 new permanent school places, of which almost 5,700 were additional new places. Furthermore, there were more than 2,650 devolved smaller-scale projects completed under the additional accommodation, summer works and emergency works schemes. Under the additional accommodation scheme, a total of almost 5,800 additional permanent school places were delivered. A total of 37 sites were acquired during 2010 to facilitate the continued roll-out of the school building programme, while physical education equipment grants were issued to all schools and the minor works grant issued to primary schools. Almost €169 million was spent on capital projects in the higher education sector. This reduced amount of capital expenditure in 2011, at slightly more than €556 million, reflected the general reduction in funding available for overall public capital investment.

My officials and I will be happy to deal with any issues arising from the Vote.

I thank the Accounting Officer. May we publish that statement?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

I invite Ms Joan Russell, chief executive of County Cork VEC, to make her opening statement.

Ms Joan Russell

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present a statement. I acknowledge and accept the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Arising from such findings, I wish to inform the Committee of Public Accounts of the following points. Since 2004, when the information technology, IT, project was established, County Cork VEC has established finance and audit committees as per circular letter 11/05. County Cork VEC has worked in partnership in a pilot project with the Department of Education and Skills to prepare the annual financial statements, form V15, in a new format making it more transparent. County Cork VEC has had its 2010 accounts in this new format signed off by the Comptroller and Auditor General. County Cork VEC continues to work with the vocational support services unit, VSSU, to develop and enhance more efficient and transparent practices. The VEC has adopted and continues to implement procurement procedures as per circular letter 39/2011. These procedures obviously post-dated the subject of today's hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts. County Cork VEC continues to engage with the national procurement advice service, as set up by the Department of Finance. The chief executive officer, principal officer and assistant principal officer of finance attend briefings on procurement procedures and the chief executive officer and principal officer are due to attend further training at the end of February. Should County Cork VEC, with the permission of the Minister, enter leases or contracts or both, all such leases or contracts will be fully vetted by County Cork VEC's legal advisers. County Cork VEC no longer leases equipment as per the guidelines of the Department of Education and Skills. Finally, as per the Secretary General's letter dated February 2012, County Cork VEC will again review its procurement procedures to ensure they are fully compliant with best practice in the area of public procurement.

I now wish to outline briefly the purpose of the ICT project initiated at Glanmire community college through the education officer and principal of the day and supported by the chief executive officer of the day. It is my clear understanding that the project was initiated in the utmost good faith. It was an innovative project which focused entirely on the use of ICT in teaching and learning. It was in line with the Government's national development plan of the day and with the goals as set out in Schools IT 2000, which specifically aimed to enhance teaching and learning through the use of ICT. It also was in line with the recommendation of the then Department of Education and Science to incorporate the use of ICT in the classroom and to enhance the ICT skills of students, the requirement, under the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, to monitor, record and report on student attendance, and County Cork VEC's continuing track record in initiating creative teaching and learning opportunities for the learners it serves across all areas. I acknowledge the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, and wish to report also that the school has benefited by way of a server, a server PC, 70 laptops, 20 PDAs, Wi-Fi and licences.

The company in question reimbursed €53,996 to County Cork VEC, leaving a net cost of €161,990. In his report, the Comptroller and Auditor General found that of the net costs of €161,990 incurred by County Cork VEC on the project, value was achieved to the extent that equipment costing over €99,000 remains in use, albeit for a purpose different from that originally intended.

None the less, I acknowledge and accept the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make this presentation and will be happy to answer any queries that committee members may have.

Can we publish your statement?

Ms Joan Russell

Yes.

Thank you. I will now call on Mr. Ted Owens, chief executive of the City of Cork VEC, to make his statement.

Mr. Ted Owens

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the committee for this opportunity. I am not proud to be present here today. The City of Cork VEC takes pride in conducting its business to the highest ethical, reporting and accounting standards. It also takes pride in its compliance with the regulatory and statutory requirements applicable to a public body. In this instance the VEC failed to live up to these standards. However, I take particular solace from the concluding remark in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which stated:

A positive feature of the events is that once the matters came to light the governance organs took appropriate steps to investigate, and began a process to address the shortcomings.

I would also like to point out that the internal auditor concluded his report into the issues in question by stating: "I am aware that the City of Cork VEC has strong controls in place and is committed to best practice."

I will now deal with the enrolment issues. The misreporting of enrolment figures were identified following an investigation by the VEC executive. This was also acknowledged by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The VEC audit committee, the Department of Education and Skills, the internal auditor, and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General were all informed about the inaccurate returns by the VEC executive.

A file on the enrolment issues and the procurement issues was also submitted to the Garda Síochána. As CEO, I deeply regret that this situation occurred. I am fully aware that the allocation of teaching resources and funding is dependent on accurate and timely returns. The VEC has had a reduction in its teacher allocation imposed by the Department, and an attendant reduction in the financial allocation to the scheme that reflects the over-reporting identified by the VEC's investigation and the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit of the returns.

Steps have been taken to ensure the accuracy of the returns in future. Among other steps taken, the VEC has developed and implemented an online application and enrolment system for its three large post-leaving certificate, PLC, colleges. It has introduced spot checks to ensure the computerised return corresponds with roll-book entries and the reality on the ground.

As regards procurement issues, the procurement problem was highlighted by the internal auditor and investigated by him in conjunction with senior VEC staff. The City of Cork VEC places considerable emphasis on compliance with regulations and has always given the utmost co-operation to internal and Comptroller and Auditor General auditors to ensure it maintains high standards of financial propriety and regulation.

The investigations brought to light weaknesses in the systems, reinforcing the need for vigilance and strict compliance with procurement regulations. The committee has taken steps to ensure there will not be a recurrence. It has continued with the development of an online purchase order system and is insisting that all orders, invoices, payments and receipts are made using this electronic system.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General has recorded, the VEC took disciplinary action in respect of the matters in his report. It was one of the first times that disciplinary action was taken against the staff of any VEC under circular letter 59 of 2009.

The briefing statement addresses what steps have been taken since to ensure there is not a recurrence of these issues. I will now place myself and my officials at the committee's disposal to answer any questions that the committee members might have.

May we publish your statement, Mr. Owens?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

I will now ask Mr. Seán Ashe, chief executive of County Kildare VEC, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seán Ashe

I would like to express my thanks to the Chairman and other members for inviting me to attend the committee and for affording me the opportunity to provide both detail and context to the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It will also offer me the opportunity to confirm that the shortcomings identified have either been addressed through procedural changes or new practices.

It is important that I set out for the committee the context under which Kildare Vocational Education Committee has operated over the past ten years. County Kildare Vocational Education Committee has experienced rapid growth over that period due to significant demographic changes within the county. In 2002, County Kildare had a population of 163,944 and this has increased to 209,955 in the 2011 census - a population increase of over 28% in ten years.

This dramatic change, in terms of the growth in population in Kildare, resulted in the urgent need to provide for the additional educational needs of local children and to plan to meet their needs immediately. The imperative was to ensure every child in Kildare had access to education when required at the relevant level.

The table in appendix 1 which I have circulated gives some indication of that growth in terms of the scale of the business we manage and how it has impacted on our operations. The key metrics from that table are: a growth of 125% in student numbers; a growth of 32% in our teaching staff; a sanctioned increase of almost 1,500% in the size of our capital budget, which will treble to €30 million over the next two years; a growth of 120% in our annual expenditure; and a decrease of 28% in our head office administrative staff.

To provide for this growth in student numbers, our strategic plans in 2002 clearly identified the urgent need for new schools and facilities to educate the young people of Kildare. Having reviewed all options, County Kildare Vocational Education Committee developed an innovative and exciting campus model to deliver modern educational infrastructure for Naas. This approach was approved by the Minister for Education and Skills of the day and by subsequent Ministers. The campus structure that was ultimately developed in Naas is now the blueprint for the provision of new educational facilities nationally.

This campus at Piper's Hill, Naas, opened its doors in September 2008 and consists of a 1,000 pupil second level college with an enrolment of more than 800 students. In 2008, that college had fewer than 400 students. It opened on the new campus in 2009. A new community national school started in September 2010. A 16-classroom gaelscoil opened in 2008 under the patronage of An Foras Pátrúnachta. A national headquarters and training centre for the IVEA opened in September 2011 and a replacement six-classroom primary school for the Church of Ireland is currently at design stage. At a future date, there will be a permanent school for the community national school.

It should also be noted that during this period the VEC system underwent radical change due to the introduction of the 2001 Vocational Education (Amendment) Act, and there were a raft of changes to employment and procurement law. Under normal circumstances these changes would place a significant additional workload on administrators, but our office had to adjust to a 28% reduction in its staffing allocation.

The VEC governance structure also changed during this period. However, even though Kildare VEC is one of the larger VECs in the country, its staffing structure is that of a category 3 VEC, resulting in the lack of an IT pillar and senior management posts.

Valuable lessons have been learned during this period resulting in an increased commitment to good corporate governance and an increased awareness of risk assessment. At all times during this period the VEC and the Department of Education and Skills were kept informed of our strategic plans, and both sanctioned the key deliverables of that plan.

As CEO, I have a dual role as an education provider and the manager of a substantial organisation. To ensure these roles operate effectively, I report monthly to the VEC and in addition to finance and audit sub-committees, and acquire the relevant sanctions as appropriate.

There are two distinct issues addressed by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report and I am happy to deal with both. The first relates to the manner in which certain goods and services were procured by Kildare VEC during the period under review. Some of the issues relate to the procurement of ICT materials and support, while others concern the project support advisers engaged for the campus. I accept that there were deficiencies in respect of the procurement of goods and services, but I can confirm that we have taken strong action to address the shortcomings identified in the report's findings, which includes the following.

All purchases at school and centre level require additional documentation to accompany the official order form that will ensure verbal, written or e-tender procurements are associated with the relevant V11. At head office, new standard operating procedures are being developed to cope with the increased capital procurement being undertaken by the VEC, currently estimated at €30 million for the next two years. Also at head office, new tracking systems are being implemented to ensure compliance on a range of functions and to eliminate risk to the VEC. A risk assessment committee has been put in place since 2010.

We would like specifically to update the committee on the findings outlined in figure 1 of Mr. Buckley's report. I apologise to Mr. Buckley's officials in that, at the time of audit, we did not have some of the document required available to us. I had to source it and I have sourced it. At the time, I certified from my examination of the files that procurement rules were followed. However, all of the relevant back-up, which dates back to 2006, was not readily available at that time as the procurement exercised in each case was not conducted directly by Kildare VEC head office, but by schools and centres and by other agencies on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills. We have since sourced in the majority of cases the required back-up, which confirms that procurement rules were followed in respect of these purchases. In a small minority of cases the relevant back-up is not available, but I have no reason to believe that proper procurement rules and processes were not followed in these cases. An ex-post review has confirmed that the prices at which the goods and services were supplied were competitive and value for money, and I can give the committee examples if required.

On the procurement of advisory, project management and design services associated with the development of the campus in Naas, this was a factor of the manner in which the development project proceeded, with extensions at different levels beyond the initial scope. I accept that at each stage of contract extension there should have been a reassessment of the basis on which the services were procured but given the pace and manner in which the project proceeded, this did not happen. I regret this but have put systems in place to ensure that this will not happen again. Having reviewed the sums expended on such services after event, I believe that Kildare VEC and the taxpayer did receive value for money for such expenditure. Of course, I fully accept the point expressed by the Comptroller and Auditor General that the process must not just deliver value, but be demonstrably open and transparent. I can confirm that lessons have been learned across the VEC from this project and new guidance has been rolled out to strengthen the procurement processes involved.

The second aspect addressed in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General relates to property transactions undertaking by the VEC to support the funding of the new campus. Again, this needs to be understood in the context of the time. I will cite a letter we received in 2004 from the then Department of Education and Science. It asks me to conduct an assessment of all properties in the committee's ownership to establish if any are surplus to known requirements, and to provide an estimate of the value of any surplus assets in the event that they are disposed of on the open market, and in tandem, to identify and prioritise any capital projects to which any funds so released might be allocated, and states that the Minister is anxious to have my report within two months so that the outcome could be dealt with.

As is normal for capital development in education, the funding for major projects is centrally allocated by the Department of Education and Skills. In this case the Exchequer has provided funding for the new campus development of € 29.9 million. It had been intended that the Exchequer contribution in this case would have been largely offset by the proceeds of sale of a property that the VEC had owned in Naas and which Superquinn had agreed to purchase. Regrettably, having paid a deposit to the VEC, which we retain, Superquinn went into receivership and could not complete the contact. This was unforeseeable and unfortunate, but we did retain its deposit and still have control of the asset involved, which is now used as a school in Naas.

The bottom line on the Piper's Hill campus project is the total cost to the Exchequer is €29.9 million while the assets are valued at €56.9 million resulting in a net gain to the State of €27 million. What we were unable to deliver was an additional €20 million saving to the State as a result of events outside our control. Had we succeeded, it would have been the icing on the cake for this project.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's review identified a potential risk to the Exchequer in that an element of the funding for the campus project was reliant on the sale of an asset. I assure the committee that County Kildare Vocational Education Committee carried out due diligence on each element of the project to ensure that all risks were minimised and the Department of Education and Skills was kept appraised at all times.

I should also like to record that in the course of developing the Piper's Hill campus in Naas significant and valuable lessons were learned. These lessons have influenced the VEC and the Department of Education and Skills to develop the campus model for the future. I am pleased to report that Kildare vocational education committee has led the way in the development of the campus model of integrated educational provision. We have recently, together with the Department of Education and Skills, developed the new educational campus in Athy consisting of a second level VEC school and three national schools under different patronages.

We are currently developing a design brief for a new 2,000 pupil second level campus in Maynooth. This will bring together in the one location primary, secondary and tertiary education with the associated infrastructure for community and recreational use. I can confirm that, in respect of both the Athy and Maynooth projects, the lessons of the Piper's Hill project have been learned and applied.

County Kildare Vocational Education Committee is managing devolved projects valued €30 million on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills. It is managing these projects within its current staffing allocations, but with up-skilling and new work systems has the capacity to deliver. This is an example of the public sector delivering in keeping with the objectives of TPS.

I wish to state that County Kildare Vocational Education Committee continues to operate within its financial and staffing allocations as sanctioned by the Department of Education and Skills. I am happy to answer any questions the committee may have and thank it for inviting me here today.

I thank Mr. Ashe. Can we publish your statement?

Mr. Seán Ashe

You may.

There is a great deal in each of those presentations for which I thank the witnesses. I will be as precise as possible. I wish to start with Ms McManus. Unlike the HSE which has provided me with a breakdown of the positions and locations of the staff who will be availing of the grace period that will end at the end of February, Ms McManus's Department has been unable to provide its figures. Why is that the case? There will be a substantial exit from the Department of Education and Skills and I want to know why the Department at this juncture cannot give definitive numbers and the locations of those posts that will be vacated.

Ms Brigid McManus

I suppose there is a different position in each of the sub-sectors of the staffing of the Department. If one takes teachers, which is probably the biggest element of the retirements, schools are able to fill all those positions. In practice, that is what I might call normal business. It is transacting at a different time of the year but, as far as classroom positions are concerned, schools get an allocation of posts and they then employ the teachers they need for the allocation of posts. If a teacher leaves at any time during a year, whether because he or she just resigns or takes a pension, the school can fill up to its delegated piece and we would not get involved.

Does the Department take a hands-off approach in that regard?

Ms Brigid McManus

Where we get involved is at the redeployment stage. There is an annual allocation process for teachers which transacts in the next month or two, for example, for September next. There is a redeployment position that we manage at that point on an annual basis. In fact, we have been probably the most successful - if one looks at the numbers - redeployers of staff across the public service in the teaching area. That is done on an annual basis in primary. When a school gets its allocation, if it has permanent teachers over and above its allocation, it identifies those permanent teachers and then we manage a redeployment process. It is somewhat differently managed in primary and post-primary, but that is the fundamental piece.

What is happening at the end of February is a school, if it recruits a new teacher, because it will be getting different allocations, is just recruiting him or her on the basis of the period from February until the summer. On those teachers, depending on the deployment or redeployment position, the last in - it is basically last in, first out in primary and it is a bit different in second level - will be redeployed. Given that the schools are managing this, we do not need to know where they are at the end of February.

In terms of the accurate numbers at post-primary level secondary schools and community and comprehensive colleges, where we directly pay the teachers and manage the pensions, in the cases of each teacher who retires the school is given permission to put somebody else on the payroll. We are managing the payroll centrally. We have an estimate from the VECs on how many will be leaving that sector at the end of February but they are responsible for pay and pensions in their respective areas. The institutions under the Higher Education Authority manage their own staff numbers. The employment control framework sets out the targets they must reach and they manage that at institutional level. Most of these institutions are fairly large.

In respect of the Department and some of the smaller agencies we know where key people are leaving but of the 1,606 staff who will retire the end of February numbers, 729 are primary teachers, 507 are from the secondary comprehensive teachers, 25 are non-teaching primary level staff, such as special needs assistants and secretaries under old schemes, and five are non-teaching staff from the secondary comprehensive sector. We estimate from the information given by the VECs that 258 will retire from across that sector, including 79 from FÁS, three from departmental bodies and 34 from the Department.

At this stage we do not need to know the location of the schools concerned. That will be investigated in March or April when we receive information on surplus teachers in order to manage geographical redeployment.

I raise this issue because contingency plans are said to have been drawn up and the exits are supposedly being actively monitored and managed. Notwithstanding Ms McManus's explanation, I find it surprising that the Department does not have a handle on the precise details of who is proposing to leave. The response to a parliamentary question that I tabled suggests that the Department cannot even be exact about the numbers until the end of February. Does a similar vagueness apply in respect of the net savings the Exchequer will make from these exits? We put similar questions to the HSE and other agencies to ascertain the exact amount of the savings, in net terms, to the Exchequer from the incentivised retirement scheme. Can Ms McManus provide figures at this stage?

Ms Brigid McManus

This is not an incentivised retirement scheme. We excluded teachers from the incentivised retirement scheme when it was introduced last year because it did not make sense to open it to them when we were seeking to fill teaching posts.

How would Ms McManus describe it?

Ms Brigid McManus

Effectively it reflects the working through of the pay cut that applied to teaching pay whereby staff were allowed to retire within a certain period while keeping their old pensions. The Government of the day could have decided to apply the pension cut at the same time as the pay cut but it not do so. People are availing of a general provision that applies to all retiring public servants. It is not the same as the previous incentivised retirement scheme or career break scheme, which were not opened in areas in which posts were being filled, such as teachers or departmental psychologists.

Taking on board that semantic point, have the numbers been crunched on the savings to the Exchequer arising from those exits?

Ms Brigid McManus

In terms of the bulk of teaching staff, there will not be a saving in the immediate year. It depends on whether one thinks the people are going to retire or not retire. That is the basic issue. To the extent that a teacher retiring at the end of February would otherwise retire over the summer, one must assume that many of them simply brought forward their retirement given that we will be filling their posts. If one is taking the position that the individuals concerned would not otherwise have retired this year, there is not a saving because the lump sum and pension must be paid in addition to recruiting a new and cheaper teacher. If that new teacher was formerly in receipt of unemployment benefit there would be a net saving to the Exchequer but there would not be a net saving to the vast bulk of the Department's Vote, which pays for teachers. It will be difficult to identify the savings until we see the figures for the full year. In other words, when we determine our normal figure for retirements at the end of August we will have a good handle on the number leaving at the end of February who would have gone in August anyway. One is only looking at a timing position in respect of expenditure. In the first year of retirement a saving would not generally be made by replacing a senior teacher with a junior recruit because of the lump sum. There are savings in ongoing payroll costs, however, because of superannuation.

Like the higher education sector, we face challenging targets under the employment control framework in terms of VEC non-teaching staff and departmental and agency staff. Salary allocations in the Department and in agencies and third level institutions were reduced, with a 5% reduction in higher education. There were gross reductions to our salary bills and retirements allow us to live within our reduced budgets. If there are insufficient retirements from the Department to meet the targets, I will be putting staff on redeployment panels and the VECs will respond likewise.

Ms McManus indicated that the information will be analysed when it is made available to her Department. It would be beneficial to the committee's work if the data was also provided to members.

I understand she is leaving her own post in the not too distant future. I commend her on setting aside the special severance gratuity in her own case. Do I dare ask her view on the bumper pension packages that senior and, no doubt, capable civil servants receive? The issue has been subject to political controversy and disquiet. She may or may not answer that question in her own time.

It would be more important to ask the Minister.

The Chairman is possibly correct. I understand four separate applications have been made to European Globalisation Adjustment Fund in respect of Waterford Crystal, Dell, SR Technics and a large cohort of construction workers. Due to what has been described as maladministration by the Department, a substantial part of the fund is to be returned. How much of the €60 million allocated to the fund is to be returned and how does Ms McManus respond to the charge of maladministration?

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not accept there was maladministration. It is the Minister's word and I do not accept it. What he was referring to as maladministration was that he was concerned that at a stage national announcements, and in some cases EU announcements, were being made about availability and our system of communication with local FÁS and social welfare offices was not sufficiently efficient to ensure people on the ground knew what was happening. I would not accept this as maladministration. Maladministration is-----

Ms Brigid McManus

It depends; there were issues, as the EGF is a very complicated system at European level. It is not the easiest system to operate and many countries have had difficulties with it.

Ms Brigid McManus

I deal with the European social fund and I spent a considerable period of my career dealing with the ERDF and other EU funds. I managed the national development plan from 1994 to 1999 at the Department of Finance and the EGF is more complicated than most I have seen.

There is no doubt there were things we did not do. There was a learning curve, and there were things we did not do well. We have changed many of the processes, for example with regard to TalkTalk which we are working on now, and changed the way we engage and design programmes. It is complex to administer and we could have done things better in the first couple of cases but this is part of a normal learning curve in administration.

The Deputy asked about money. The way the EGF works is one makes an estimate of how much one thinks one will draw down under a particular set of design measures. Effectively, one is in a range of what one thinks one will achieve. In other words one takes the number of workers, makes an estimate of the number of interventions and the money, and one estimates the programme. If one does not come up to the full expenditure - this is how it differs from other EU funds - one then returns the money but if one makes a wrong estimate because one estimates a certain number of interventions and estimates the programme at the lower end of the range one has no capacity to ask for more. Naturally if one looks at a range of what one thinks one will use one will always go for the upper end of what one thinks one will use because there is no penalty from an EU point of view.

What exactly are you driving at? Was the estimate €60 million?

Ms Brigid McManus

With regard to the programme allocation for Dell, Waterford Crystal, SR Technics and three subsets in construction I have a table I can provide to the Deputy. A total of €22.8 million was allocated for Dell, €3.955 million for Waterford Crystal and €11.455 million for SR Technics. This is probably the €60 million. With the three construction subsets it amounts to €93 million as they amount to €19.5 million, €33.3 million and €2.1 million. This means the programme allocation is €93 million and the EGF receipts associated with this at a 65% rate are €60.589 million.

How do you account for the difference?

Ms Brigid McManus

Those figures are in respect of the EU aspect. Of the €60 million, to take Dell where the allocation was approximately €14.8 million, there was a spend estimate of €22.8 million, of which an EU receipt would have been €14.8 million. We spent €13.6 million rather than €20 million. Therefore with Dell we spent approximately 60% of what we estimated we would spend. With Waterford Crystal it was 78% and that is just about finalised now. We do not have estimates for the others because they are still ongoing.

If in the case of Dell 60% of the estimate was spent, what happened to the-----

Ms Brigid McManus

We will draw 60% of the EGF receipts allocated to it.

I understand, but what I am asking is why 100% of an allocation from the globalisation fund was not spent.

Ms Brigid McManus

We overestimated the amount of programmes that would be drawn on. In the Dell case we estimated more would take up higher education programmes so there was a significant underspend in this area. Further education and training was broadly drawn up but not as many people took up training and education on offer. The breakdown in the estimate of how much we used in higher education as opposed to further education was different to what we estimated.

So what you are saying, in plainer language, is that the spend returned to the European Union is as a consequence of workers in the respective sectors not taking up various opportunities. Is that the case?

Ms Brigid McManus

What I am saying is that in designing it, and this is probably where some of the lessons about this have been learned, there was not sufficient engagement to identify the interventions needed. There is very tight timeframe for making applications, so for example with TalkTalk, which is the latest case we have-----

I want to concentrate on the four-----

Ms Brigid McManus

What I am saying is that we are sitting down with people and asking what exactly they need and establishing how much it would cost. This will enable us to put in a more accurate application. The application put in was not as accurate as it should have been.

Ms McManus, if I understand the globalisation fund correctly, funds are sought in respect of identified individuals. Is this correct?

Ms Brigid McManus

That is right, yes.

Are you telling me that in making your calculation on Waterford Crystal, Dell, SR Technics and the three categories of construction workers, this type of consultation with those workers did not take place? Is this what you are saying?

Ms Brigid McManus

It probably did not. The timeframe of putting in something was such that there probably was not enough identification of needs. It is easier in a-----

I am asking a very direct question. Did consultation happen or did it not?

Ms Brigid McManus

There was some consultation but it probably was not specific and identified enough to develop a programme.

In the case of construction workers-----

Ms Brigid McManus

A sectoral application will always be somewhat different because it will be national so one will always be in the space of making more estimates. Particular issues arose with regard to the construction application because it was the first sectoral application we made. We put in a full application across the entire sector and the Commission wanted it broken down by specific NACE codes and we have trouble identifying some of the workers and employers by NACE codes because of how our redundancy system captures the material. The ability to engage on direct identification of need prior to submitting an application as opposed to engaging after an application has been approved will always be more difficult in a sector-wide application than if one is looking at a particular factory.

Despite the fact it was a sectoral application, there was still the same requirement to identify identifiable workers in respect of the fund draw-down. Am I correct to state this?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, that is right.

To summarise, an application was made to the tune of €93 million.

Ms Brigid McManus

Different applications were made.

I am giving the global figure. This was made with regard to identifiable sections of workers. A chunk of the money has been returned because according to Ms McManus there was not sufficient take up in respect of different initiatives.

Ms Brigid McManus

And we may not have designed initiatives.

I am summarising here Ms McManus. Ms McManus is also telling us the individual identification of workers for the purpose of consultation for a correct design did not happen. Ms McManus rejects the charge of maladministration. I must put it to her that this sounds to me like a case of maladministration in respect of a very valuable fund on which many people who lost their jobs were relying. I imagine that anyone in that position and who has just tuned in will be alarmed to hear that the State is returning moneys to the EU because the system was incorrectly designed at a time when people desperately needed retraining and upskilling. It sounds like maladministration. Ms McManus is the Accounting Officer and it occurred on her watch.

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not accept that it was maladministration. I accept that we did not manage it as well as we might have. It did not all occur on my watch, as it started in the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, but I will not resile from it. Whenever one starts a new scheme under a complex piece, one will get some elements right and others wrong. For example, had we as administrators taken the most risk-averse action, had I made a safer application of half of the actual one and had the spend proved greater, the committee would be asking me questions about why I did not make a higher application.

With respect, Ms McManus understands that is not my suggestion. This is a matter of public interest and a topic for the committee. I query how the scheme, instead of having its maximum use facilitated, fell short due to a form of maladministration, to use the Minister's term, leading to moneys being returned to the European level instead of being put to productive use in Ireland. To me, this is maladministration. Perhaps we will not agree on the term.

I am conscious of my time. To conclude on the issue, who within the Department other than the Secretary General is responsible for the European Globalisation Fund, EGF? What conversation did the Secretary General have with said person or persons about the fund and the return of moneys from this jurisdiction to Europe?

Ms Brigid McManus

A section that is part of the skills division manages the EGF. There is ongoing monitoring. As the Deputy is probably aware, we have submitted for public consultation a review document on how this matter has been handled in each of the measures that have been managed to date. The intention is to consider the further improvements that can be made. We are often benchmarked against other countries. It is fair to say that, in terms of our programmes and the percentage of spend thereon, we compare reasonably favourably with the percentage spend draw down of other countries.

What about the returns?

Ms Brigid McManus

Up to 97% of a few programmes in other countries have been returned to the Commission. The nature of the programme is such that one is in a position to make estimates. We are providing normal programmes with a top-up and using it to draw down EU money to help with the costs of those programmes, which we are providing for the unemployed out of scarce Exchequer resources.

The purpose of identifying in a systematic way the workers concerned is to make the best use of those resources. Failing to carry out consultation in the most thorough manner represents a failure in administration. I wish to ask a further question.

Before the Deputy does, I wish to raise a point of information. In terms of the figure of €93 million, the analysis was carried out by the skills division, which was located in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment at the time. Is this correct?

Ms Brigid McManus

Some of the applications were made when it was in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The last application in question, which was the full construction application, was made just as the division was transferring to my Department. We needed to resubmit it because the Commission subsequently stated that we could not make an aggregate construction application of that type. It was the first time that type of application had been made. The Commission preferred us to split it into three. The three formal applications into which the aggregate was divided were made under our Department, but the original Dell-Waterford Crystal-SR Technics application was made by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

The Secretary General's Department inherited it.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

For the sake of clarity, the skills division was transferred from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the Secretary General's Department.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes. Some of the people were then transferred onwards to the Department of Social Protection, as the responsibilities were split in two.

I have a final question on this issue. Are there workers, particularly construction workers, in respect of whom an application for funding was made in the absence of their knowledge?

Ms Brigid McManus

The application was made for named workers without any advance consultation with workers. Since one does not know to what extent people will be deemed eligible, one gives the Commission an estimate of the employees that fall within the period. There is a rather complex iterative process in which the Commission tells us it does not regard one type of employees as being covered in, for example, the construction NACE code, so we take those employees out of the application. Waterford Crystal, SR Technics and Dell represented a type of specific employment with specific companies and their named workers were aware that we were submitting applications.

It was more straightforward.

Ms Brigid McManus

Sector-wide applications are difficult. To be honest, one wonders whether one should make them at all, but we need the money.

I can understand the toing and froing. At the end of the iterative process, were there individuals in respect of whom applications were made who were unaware that they fell within a specific cohort?

Ms Brigid McManus

Following what was, for many reasons, a protracted process and the approval of the Commission, the managing authority issued letters of notification to the 8,779 eligible construction workers with home addresses in the State. These letters drew their attention to what was available to them.

Did they all participate?

Ms Brigid McManus

No. Some had moved on, given the delay. We set up a dedicated construction contact centre to provide telephone and online information and support facilities and to make referrals to other service providers. The Minister referred to the case of construction. We made leaflets and information available in every employment service and social welfare office. Our new website went live in December and provides information on the programmes. We have some money available in training grants for people who do not want to get into the main public service programmes. These can be applied for through the website. We have contracted WRC Social and Economic Consultants Limited, which did work for us in respect of Waterford Glass, to handle the management information end. We have a central helpline in FÁS.

While the Department managed it, we had steering committees for the Dell, Waterford Crystal and SR Technics cases. In Dell's case, the local steering committee was chaired by the FÁS regional manager. In the case of Waterford Glass, the city manager chaired the committee. Each steering committee manages some of the interaction, but there is a dedicated centre for construction. We have tried, in terms of website access and so on, to make it easier for people to access some of the information on construction.

I must ask Deputy McDonald to conclude.

I have one final question for each of the respective VECs. Having read the reports and listened to what witnesses had to say this morning, this is pretty hair-raising stuff, with all due respect to each witness. I note the expression of regret from at least some of the witnesses.

Given the slipshod and, in some cases, unethical approach to matters of procurement in particular, how can we have confidence, as VECs are merged and the system is trimmed down, there is appropriate and enforceable levels of transparency in our VECs, in particular County Cork VEC and County Kildare VEC? How can we be sure there is good management and leadership in respect of each witness's role? It is all very well to say mistakes were made and that they have been fixed but the fact remains that these were not minor occurrences. Falsification of enrolment numbers is a serious matter. Involvement of staff members in the supply of goods and services which are procured by the VEC is not alone unethical but corrupt. I cannot understand why no civil actions were taken in respect of some of these matters.

How can we as a committee and the public be reassured that the witnesses' appearance today is not simply a damage limitation exercise and that the correct systems are now in place? I found the material shocking in its brazenness. I understand in the case of County Cork VEC that there is controversy in respect of other issues which we are not at liberty to discuss at this meeting.

I invite each of the Accounting Officers to respond briefly.

Ms Joan Russell

I appear before the committee today in regard to a project initiated in 2004. As I said in my opening statement, as per CL 11/05 audit and finance committees have been put in place. We followed the procedures as set down for those audit and finance committee meetings. All relevant documentation and information goes before those committees.

As executive officer, I present all the documentation and information required to the committee. I also seek legal advice, where I am required to seek it and where I believe it is best practice to seek legal advice. I follow procedures. I can assure the committee that going forward I will, in my role as acting chief executive officer of County Cork VEC, follow all the procedures set out in the various Department circular letters and will ensure good corporate governance.

Will Ms Russell ensure that her colleagues and those she manages will do likewise?

Ms Joan Russell

I assure the Deputy and committee that I will do so. Issues have come to light. These issues have been reviewed by the executive and assistance was sought from internal auditors, following which procedures were changed and training was provided for all staff accordingly. New control systems are in place. They are continually monitored and training is continuing. I assure the Deputy and committee that I will work with the staff to ensure all procedures are followed.

Mr. Seán Ashe

I hear what the Deputy is saying. If I may, I would like to return to the period from 2002 to 2004 when I took up office. At that time, there was no monthly capital budget and very little money was travelling. I did have discussions with the Minister for Finance of the day on the possibility of sweating the asset. Hence, a letter issued from the Department requesting that we look at what assets we had available and to see how they could be converted into moneys that would allow the capital programme we had put forward to proceed.

We identified potential projects in Athy, Newbridge, Naas and Kildare. The net result has been a significant gain to the Exchequer. If I may, I would like to give an example.

Deputy McDonald is asking for an assurance that correct procedures are now in place.

Mr. Seán Ashe

Yes, I can guarantee that. I stated in my opening submission that we have changed our practices and our operating systems and are following a different strategic approach to procurement and delivery of these projects. I was trying to put matters in context.

Mr. Ted Owens

Deputy McDonald mentioned the word "shocking" in regard to two particular incidents at County Cork VEC. I will deal first with the enrolment issue. I, too, was shocked. What happened was totally and utterly unacceptable. I was principal of two schools. I took it for granted that the October return, which was supplied directly to the Department, was accurate and timely. That was not the case in this particular instance. We discovered the error, took disciplinary action and have tried to ensure, by putting in place tighter procedures in terms of on-line applications, spot-checks and so on, that this will not happen again. I put my hands up on this one. It should not have happened. I realise the implications of this, particularly at a time when schools throughout the country are losing teachers. What happened happened on my watch. However, it will not happen again on my watch. We have rectified the matter.

On the procurement issue, when I read the internal auditor's report this appeared to be a textbook case for what should not happen. I can give a convoluted explanation of what happened because there is context to everything over time but at the end of the day what happened was inexcusable. It should not have happened. We made 14,000 purchases last year. We are a relatively large VEC. What happened in the particular instance identified was a textbook case of how not to do business. I apologise to the committee for same.

I welcome the Secretary General and her officials to the meeting. I understand this is the Secretary General's final appearance before the Committee of Public Accounts. I am sure she will not miss us. I wish her the best on her retirement from the Department.

Having listened to the exchange between Deputy McDonald and the Secretary General, I would not regard what happened as maladministration. When a system is designed in such a way that the Department has to guess the numbers involved, in my view that system is imperfect. It is almost a lottery, which in some cases precludes the Department from maximising the funds available. I am not sure how anyone could level the charge of maladministration when it-----

I disagree with the Minister. It seems to me that the system is imperfect if the Department has to guess what the demand will be under the scheme for a particular company, which depends on the diversification of the employment involved and the levels of specialisation involved. One of the companies concerned is in my constituency. As such, whether money being drawn down is effective or not effective is of concern to me. The issue has been raised but I would not regard it as being maladministration when the Department must make that "guesstimate" with regard to the moneys. Perhaps we could raise it with the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation or the Minister for Education and Skills. Having listened to the exchange I would not consider it something that could be seen as maladministration.

I will turn to the amalgamation of VECs and rationalisation thereof. The Government made its decision to enter into this process in June 2011. The McCarthy report recommended that rationalisation should reduce the number of VECs from 33 to 22 and we ended up with a system where 16 headquarters of VECs were put in place. The savings identified by the McCarthy report were in the region of €3 million. Will the witnesses give an idea of the estimate within the Department now that there are to be 16 VECs? I have specifically raised the issue four or five times within this committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General has prepared a consultation document specifically about Waterford and Wexford, and the analysis done within the Department to make its decision and place the headquarters of the VEC in the south east in Wexford. My first question is to the Secretary General. Will she go through the kind of analysis conducted within the Department and how that decision ended up being made of Wexford being the headquarters for the south east?

Ms Brigid McManus

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. One of the benefits of coming before the Committee of Public Accounts is that one spends the weeks beforehand interrogating one's organisation about all sorts of matters. My finance officials may suffer as much of the pain, if not more, from appearances before the committee. On the EGF there are negotiations at EU level on doing the criteria again. There is not much openness to some of the concepts we are seeking but we can get a note to the committee if there is an interest in that process.

Is it fair to say the problem has been identified?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, although there is an issue from the Commission perspective. The Deputy might remember, for example, that there was no roll-over of the extension on the sectoral application, so a sectoral application cannot be made any more. There are probably ways of improving this but it is seen by the Commission as serving a particular purpose. We are trying to use it more widely than the Commission would see it. We can get a note to the committee on how that is going.

On the selection process, we would have identified in the VEC area a benefit in reducing numbers, even before the McCarthy report. That is both from the perspective of increasing the critical mass for good educational purposes and the benefit of savings achieved through amalgamation. We are working with the figure of approximately €3.2 million in additional savings. We will be dependent on the rationalisation to live within the employment control framework and some of the reductions happening otherwise. There is no assumption about property and there is no figure inserted for it. In due time there will be property savings. The €3.2 million saving is ongoing and annual but other savings will effectively just help us meet cuts we have already made.

With regard to the headquarters issue, in October 2010 the final decision was taken by the Government following a discussion on the revised configuration. Following this we sent a questionnaire to the chief executive officers of all the VECs seeking details of the headquarters, premises and administrative staff. We did not send this to entities which at the time were not to be amalgamated but the south east would have been included. Departmental officials examined the data, considering whether the area was a gateway or hub town under the national spatial strategy, if accommodation owned or leased, the length or terms of any lease, the size of the premises and capacity for expansion, geographical location in the region, distance limits under the Croke Park agreement and the required staff movements from other locations in the region.

In January 2011, in order to assist with these deliberations we wrote to stakeholders requesting suggestions regarding the rationalisation on four different issues, including the location of headquarters. We wrote about other matters as well. It is fair to say that all the VECs and local authorities, with one or two exceptions, replied by arguing that the headquarters should be where they were currently. It became apparent from considering the configuration of staff that in a number of entities, there would be more than one location - that is, an additional sub-office - for a while.

On 14 March 2011 the new Minister wrote to the Irish Vocational Education Association seeking alternative rationalisation proposals so nothing else was done about the headquarters until a reply was received. The response suggested 20 VECs with a different configuration. In June 2011 there was a decision on the revised configuration, which was 16 headquarters in a slightly different combination. At that point we made a recommendation to the Minister setting out the advantages and disadvantages of the existing locations for each of the two new entities. In that memo we set out potential for redeployment of staff and disruption, the question of whether buildings were owned or leased, centrality within the new location and our best call on the issue.

I do not have a problem with giving the committee a copy of the submission made as it has been released under the Freedom of Information Act. Effectively, there was a category with no change as there was no change to some VECs. Another set would have had a single location that was not viable; there would have been a call on what we thought, given the factors of an indicative location we recommended. It is fair to say there were a number of areas where we could have gone either way. With the location asked about - Waterford or Wexford - the indication reads, "In summary, the headquarters location of this entity is a finely balanced question and the choice would appear to be a headquarters in Wexford with one sub-office in Dungarvan or a headquarters in the environs of Waterford city with a sub-office in Wexford".

So there was no clear recommendation.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

The Minister made the decision.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Did the Minister give any reason Wexford was ultimately picked? Was there a compelling reason the decision was made?

Ms Brigid McManus

It is fair to say we felt one could make equal arguments for either location. The Minister went with Wexford on that one. I should say there was a discussion and a subsequent submission was made on 23 September, where some elements changed slightly because of extra information sent in by some VECs. The Deputy spoke about Wexford and Waterford.

I had many questions but the witness has cut to the chase. There is no need for me to ask questions as to whether these were gateway issues or related to the location of FÁS headquarters in the south east in Waterford or the distance issues under the Croke Park agreement. Effectively, the Department made no clear recommendation of one over the other and it was left to the Minister to make the decision. That is fair enough.

My take on this is very simple. The Department did its job. Its personnel were asked to conduct an exercise and they did so. This committee must ask the Minister to give his reasons for picking Wexford over Waterford because I cannot figure it out. I would give an opinion-----

Quota would come into it.

-----and the other members of the committee would know it. We are dealing with a political stitch-up which had nothing to do with the exercise carried out by the Department. At this point the committee should ask the Minister to give his reasons for picking Wexford over Waterford.

Ms Brigid McManus

Chairman, could I make just one point? I think it was clear from our analysis that on the criteria at which we were looking, one could have justified either choice. I would like not like there to be any suggestion that the factors we listed and the issues raised would have suggested one rather than the other and that a Minister overruled, which is actually a Minister's right, even if he had done that. There were staffing issues, which would have led one way, there were leasing issues, which might have led a different way, and there were distance issues. If the committee wishes to have a copy of the two submissions made by the Department to the Minister, we would be quite happy to give it a copy.

Okay. I am not going to dwell on this. It is of relevance to this committee, in the context of the public purse, why this process was initiated in the first place. It was to save the taxpayer money. The figure used here is €3.2 million. We need to give the Minister an opportunity to spell out the reasons he made that decision, if that is okay.

My final question concerns the process under way in regard to the creation, or possible creation, of technological universities. One newspaper put it that there was quite a bit of unfavourable comment about this process and the rolling out of this process over the past few months. In fact, there is a quite a bit of resistance within the existing universities to this process. I think that is fair to say.

Can I ask Ms McManus a general question, which I do not think strays into policy, about the value she believes these technological universities will have? We are going down the road of allowing these universities to make their applications, once the criteria have been made public. Does Ms McManus see some value, within the framework and the overall system of universities in this country, having technological universities and having these amalgamations take place? What benefit might arise from this process and the culmination of this process?

Ms Brigid McManus

I was a member of the higher education strategy group. This was over a very protracted period and I think the papers are picking up some of the same debate again as to which direction one goes in this area. I would have been fully behind and fully involved in this but the conclusion we came to was that there is a huge value if one can do it in a way that does not undermine the real strength, mission and benefit we have got from the institutes of technology. That was the reason we went for the technological university model as opposed to a classic university model.

We are very fortunate in Ireland that we have world class universities in the classic sense, which deliver very well, and institutes of technology, which have grown in terms of the level of provision they provide, which have really filled that niche in terms of links with industry and business and responsiveness and which have met a cohort of people, in particular in the sub-degree level, who were perhaps not met in other ways and have helped progression.

The conclusion of the group was not that there is not still a case in some regions to keep institutes of technology as they are classically known now but that in terms of the ambition and growth, there would be a big benefit to us having institutions which consolidated and built on the strength of the institutes of technology and which gave one a university model but of a sort that still kept the admission of being very close to industry in an area and still kept the sub-degree level provision - for example, levels 6 and 7 which are the classic certificates and diplomas - as well as degrees and had some level 10, which is PhD provision, but level 10 provision which was more focused on what I might call the applied and industrial base. The view was that nationally we had enough provision in what I might call the classic - the liberal arts range - university model but that there would be a very big benefit from having consolidated provision generally, given the size of the country, but consolidated provision in a technological university that would meet those kinds of higher terms.

It is important the Department spells that out, and Ms McManus has done so. It is important that it explains the utility and the benefit that accrues from technological universities. The debate in the media, in particular, has focused on funding and it seems to be the case that people are making the point that there is not enough funding to go around all of the universities or any new universities. It is important the Department makes the case and explains the benefit to the economy of allowing these institutes of technology to amalgamate and become technological universities. That is helpful. I thank Ms McManus.

Ms Brigid McManus

One of the really important things is that we do that without jeopardising the quality of what it is to be a university. We do not want to go down a route of saying that anything that wants to be a university can be one because it undermines the quality of a university. I am not suggesting that is what anybody else wants to do but there will be criteria which will have to be met and a journey to be travelled.

People will go into a certain process, be accepted and then will have to achieve certain things. They have now come to the Minister from the HEA and it is likely they will be published next Monday, so we will certainly let the Deputy have a copy.

I thank Ms McManus.

I welcome the witnesses and thank Ms McManus for her contribution and wish her the best. I would like to go back to the point on the scheme taking place throughout February affording people the opportunity to leave the public service and to the comments on the cost savings of it. In her commentary on it, Ms McManus said that across the first year - this year - the savings that would accrue from it would probably be quite minimal. Once lump sums have been paid and redeployment has taken place or people have been hired at lower salary levels, is that not the phase in which savings will begin to kick in for the Exchequer?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes. There clearly will be significant savings and, indeed, some of them have already been taken out of our multi-annual budget where posts are not being filled, so there will be areas in which people are leaving where we will not fill the posts. Clearly, there is a very big saving there.

Even in the case of teachers where we are filling the posts, new teachers will be recruited and there will be a short-term saving because there is a long incremental scale. There is a saving because many teachers retiring have certain posts of responsibility and we are suppressing posts of responsibility. There is a saving because the new pay scale which new teachers will be on, even in the long run, is a saving. However, that depends on the extent of retirements.

A turnover in one's workforce is a good thing. It happens normally in teaching. Teachers retire and one loses a certain expertise but one brings in young new teachers or principals or Secretaries General, dare I say it. It is actually good for an organisation. There is also a structural saving over a period of time. In my sector-----

Will it accrue from next year and in future years?

Ms Brigid McManus

There will be some savings. Clearly, I will not be replacing the people who are retiring in the Department because of the employment control framework this year, so there will be a full saving next year of their salary. There will be their pensions, depending on their service. There will be a full saving there. In the case of the people who will be replaced, the saving will be somewhat less. With the lump, that will begin to kick in next year.

Is Ms McManus in a position yet to identify even the approximate savings for future years resulting from the implementation of this scheme?

Ms Brigid McManus

We would not have identified what we would expect to be the saving from that factor alone, as opposed to other departures. When we look at the area at the end of the year, it depends on the numbers compared to the numbers in a normal year. We do not know the number who will go at the end of February or who will go in September. When I look at the whole year, because most teachers retire at the end of August, there will be savings under two headings, saving on payroll from younger teachers at a lower point of the scale teaching from February until September. That will be a full saving this year if the persons who retire get their lump sums in February instead of in September. It depends on the circumstances of those involved. I do not think it will be easy, even at the end of the year because we will be making an estimate of how many people would otherwise have retired. Disaggregating the factors arising from the savings from those leaving at the end of February from the other factors that give rise to savings will mean making assumptions about behaviour, if the grace period of end of February were not in place. We will be able to give a figure, but it will have caveats and be based on assumptions.

The main point on which I wanted to reach a conclusion is whether savings will accrue from it. There may be a low level of savings this year because of the cost of lump sum payments, but in future years, savings will be made and will become apparent once we know the number of people leaving at the end of February.

Ms Brigid McManus

I should add, that in a situation where pupil numbers are rising and other demographic factors apply to different areas, it will facilitate redeployment of teachers to the areas where they are needed and facilitate the reduction of surplus teachers in second level schools because the guidance provision will now come into the teacher allocation. If we could not redeploy all the teachers within a distance, they would be left in the schools. If there were more retirements in a particular year, one would have fewer surplus teachers, but that is difficult to quantify.

We have discussed the VECs. If people have read about this issue and are listening to the proceedings, it could be seen as a bad day for the VECs. With respect, people may ask is this is happening elsewhere?

Is the Secretary General satisfied that the structures are in place in these VECs to ensure this does not happen again? Are we confident the accounting procedures have been strengthened to ensure proper use of taxpayers' money everywhere?

Ms Brigid McManus

A range of things show up across the sector, the general governance, procurement procedures and other thematic systems, and there are different solutions.

We have a centralised internal audit for all of the sector, based in County Cavan, which has been operating since 2001. Some of the issues with which we are dealing today will have come to light through that work. That is a very important instrument. We have a code of governance with the VECs since 2005. There is no obligation under the legislation to have an audit committee in a VEC. We introduced that. We are in discussions with the IVEA and hope to finalise a revised code of governance that will take on better practice, for example dealing with whistleblowers, in the next two months.

We have been moving toward trying to centralise procurement in line with public service reform, creating procurement frameworks and using the Central Procurement Service. Procurement requires expertise and applying the rules is quite complex, but with more centralised systems and supports, we can save money. We have funded a person in the Irish Vocational Education Association to drive that better centralised procurement. Issues are being discovered within the VECs or by the internal audit and when they are discovered, action is being taken on them. Some of the issues that were discovered would have raised serious concerns for the Department and they have been raised with individual VECs. To be frank, it is difficult to understand how people did not know the arrangement in County Cork VEC had to be referred to the Department. The case arose in another VEC, where the CEO said it could not be done, it is borrowing. We would have reminded people of that rule. There was information coming from procurement which meant I would have personally written to the VECs about that. There are issues on which one has to keep working. Issues emerged in the second level school system, for example on the enrolment space, and we fund a centralised audit unit in the joint managerial body for secondary schools. We are putting in place the building blocks and I am happy with the governance procedures, which are making it better. If one operates a programme of internal audit and something shows up for a second time, it means that if the problem is systemic, it was not fixed and something was not done to ensure it would not happen again.

I wish to address my questions on the City of Cork VEC to Mr. Owens.

Mr. Owens articulated with passion his deep regret about the purchase of ICT equipment, which I welcome. I think it is appropriate that he did so. Before I entered the Oireachtas I worked in the private sector and I would have been sacked, nearly on the spot, if I was involved in something like this. Some people will be stunned by the scenario he described and that is the reason I welcome his reaction and what will be done about it. It is extraordinary that something like this happened, not to mention come to light in the way it did. Are the companies involved still supplying goods and services to the VEC?

Mr. Ted Owens

No.

How long has that been the case?

Mr. Ted Owens

Once we became aware, we terminated.

I welcome the fact that the VEC terminated the contract once the issue came to light. Will Mr. Owens outline the disciplinary action taken in respect of the persons involved?

Mr. Ted Owens

I would rather not go into the disciplinary action, save to say that we took strong disciplinary action. The reason I say that is that I am advised by legal advisers that, in terms of individuals, it is very easy for me to do it. I know I would get an easier ride - I do not want to use that expression - from the committee today but there are issues with respect to data protection. I think the committee is aware of that. It expressed disappointment after another public body came before it and it basically looked for more powers in that whole area. I have been advised that if I was to go into disciplinary action I could be compromising people. There is also some ongoing disciplinary action being taken. That is the advice I have been given.

Is legal action ongoing?

Mr. Ted Owens

Not with respect to procurement but with respect to the enrolment, there is ongoing disciplinary action. I wrote to the committee before my appearance and pointed out that there was some ongoing action. That is why I would rather not go into disciplinary action.

On the procurement matter on which I commented, are the individuals in question still working for the VEC?

Mr. Ted Owens

One of the individuals is still working with the VEC. As I said, action was taken. A person had increments withdrawn, there was a financial penalty and profits which it was estimated he would have made were recouped by the VEC. That is what happened in that regard.

It is important to place that matter on record because the individual in question was working for a State body. As I stated, I want to recognise the way in which Mr. Owens has responded to my questioning. Nonetheless, from what I understand, the individual was working for a State body and was involved in setting up a company that was winning contracts to supply the information technology equipment to the State body in question. The position could not be more serious.

Mr. Ted Owens

I agree. New disciplinary procedures were introduced in November 2009 and these issues came to light in 2010. Cork VEC was one of the first VECs to take disciplinary action against an individual and did so at the most serious stage. There are incremental steps for engagement in disciplinary action. Stage 4, the most serious step, is serious non-compliance. That is the level at which we acted. We took a course of action against a particular individual, there was a disciplinary hearing and disciplinary process and eventually sanctions at a serious level were levelled.

Can Mr. Owens identify what level of profit was made from the way in which the contracts were handled?

Mr. Ted Owens

There were two companies involved. In one particular instance, the internal auditor conducted an investigation and made an estimate.

Do we have the estimate?

Mr. Ted Owens

Of the profit?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was about €4,500. When we went through the disciplinary process the individual stated the profit was slightly more than the estimate. We then recouped his figure, rather than the internal auditor's estimate because the former was slightly higher. We were not able to estimate exactly what was the profit in the case of the other company, company A to which we referred. In terms of company A, as I said, I do not want to try to excuse the behaviour but in this particular instance, this was somebody who started working with the VEC back in 1997 and had a company which was supplying IT equipment. He worked a number of hours per week for the VEC as a part-time teacher. We were satisfied that back in 1997, when he was supplying equipment to the VEC, everything was done by competitive tender. Our investigations showed that. Over time, the person concerned became an IT technician. Basically, what he was doing in this instance - this is where context is important - related to a college which was in a transition phase from a secondary school into a large PLC college. The college decided it would do some computer maintenance courses and the person in question was supplying some computer parts. The school was then building computers and honestly believed at the time it was saving the VEC and State money. The computer maintenance class was building computers. It evolved over time, as I said, and we came to a situation where a second company was set up. Certainly, when a second company was set up and a second individual was involved, as far as I am concerned, that was crossing the Rubicon. What happened initially should not have happened either. The school honestly believed that in an era of scarce resources it was getting value for money.

Was the company serving anybody else apart from the school?

Mr. Ted Owens

As far as I am concerned, the second company was established basically with one purpose, namely, to serve the school. The school again believed it was getting value for money but I would not accept that.

Again, I acknowledge that action was taken promptly. I emphasise, however, the severity of the cases in question. In many other circumstances, people would have been sacked.

Mr. Ted Owens

That was a consideration.

I have a question for Ms Russell on the Norwegian company which was involved in the school. On the issue of approval from the vocational education committee and Department, why was formal approval not sought for a project such as this?

Ms Joan Russell

I am not sure. I am responding to questions today based on research from files that I have read and presented, having spoken to senior management. I cannot answer the Deputy's question as to why formal approval was not sought. However, I will say that in future and in my reign as acting chief executive officer, approval will be sought from the Department and committee. I note in the file I read in preparation for today's meeting that the committee was aware of the project because a presentation of the project was made to a committee meeting in the school in March 2005. However, I do not note in the minutes, or cannot find in them, information that formal approval was sought.

It would not only have been a case of reading documents. I presume Ms Russell spoke to the people who were involved in the decision.

Ms Joan Russell

I spoke to the members of the senior management team internally and their recollection is that approval was not sought.

Did Ms Russell ask them why they did not seek approval?

Ms Joan Russell

That would be the role of the chief executive officer and the chief executive officer has now retired. I would not have held the senior management team accountable in that instance.

Did anyone ask the chief executive officer?

Ms Joan Russell

I certainly did not, no.

Did anyone else?

Ms Joan Russell

Not that I am aware of and nobody in the office in County Cork VEC had asked him.

Ms Joan Russell

It is a question that did not come to light. We are focused on what we have learned from this issue as opposed to looking back on it. I am learning from the mistakes made. I have learned from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the Vocational Support Services Unit reports but I am looking at the current situation and to the future to ensure that it does not happen again.

I am looking to the future too but there are still matters of accountability in respect of the past. I find it baffling that the basic question, why this happened, has not been answered.

Ms Joan Russell

Through the Chair, I would-----

I address that comment on the matter of approval to the VEC more than anything else. I find it baffling why we do not know that.

Ms Joan Russell

If the Deputy wishes me to ask that question I can furnish an additional report to the committee. I can ask the former chief executive.

Does Ms Russell feel she should ask the question?

Ms Joan Russell

I honestly did not feel I needed to ask the question up to now. I am not sure whether I should ask the question. From the documentation I have gleaned that a good working relationship was established between the school and the CEO of the company before the contracts were signed. There was a technical examination of the equipment and comparisons were made between the market value of the equipment at the time and the cost at which the project was provided to the school. That examination was conducted by the school management which is competent and au fait with IT. So far as the executive of the day is concerned, it felt there was a sense of security in moving forward with the project. However, approval was not sought. I will ask the question should the committee wish me to do so.

I acknowledge the role Ms Russell is playing in trying to learn, in order to move to the future but it is appropriate that she furnish the committee with any explanation on why that approval was not sought. I thank Ms Russell for her answers.

I welcome Ms Brigid McManus and all the representatives. I join in the comments of members and wish her well. I met her at the Committee of Public Accounts and at joint committees on finance. She has worked very hard on behalf of the public service and the people in the various Departments where she served. I shall ask one question to finish off on the VEC amalgamations. Has the Secretary General an estimate of the annual savings to be made? Will she make a brief comment on some of the headquarters that will no longer be the headquarters but which have long-term leases, for example, Tullamore VEC has a 16 year lease to expire, Longford VEC has a 20 year lease to expire, Kilkenny VEC has a 16 year lease to expire? I accept what she said, which is very interesting, that the Department put forward the pros and cons and the final decision but is there any note by the Minister in the Department explaining why he chose one or the other, as there is reference to the Minister talking about maladministration. I would be concerned if there is no record of how a decision was ultimately made in a Department by a Minister, even if it is only a hand-written note to say, "I have chosen Wexford, Portlaoise or whatever" for whatever reason. Is there a record in the Department of how that decision was made or was it just verbal?

Ms Brigid McManus

We looked at it, and given the property market and the time it would have taken to reconfigure and move staff, we would have advised the Minister as the process went on that we would operate with a number of buildings in many of the locations for quite a while and to a certain extent until the new CEO of the amalgamated VECs got into it, and started to plan. At the same time we were moving staff because of the centralised student support which will save a good deal of staff. The more we looked at it the more we realised that we would just have to work our way through some of the lease and accommodation issues. The Office of Public Works is doing a major review of accommodation across all systems. We have it with the rationalisation of bodies. For example, in Dublin I am rationalising the qualifications authority bodies. The whole issue of how to make the best use of property is wider than just the VECs. We have not built anything in for any savings from property precisely because of that. There may be opportunities to use things for school accommodation as the population grows, but that it where we have got to in considering these issues. The implications of the Croke Park agreement and moving staff and what made sense geographically probably became heavier in terms of decision making.

To make sense of all of this, for example, in regard to Tipperary we would have said at one point, given the geography of it and the staff movements, it might make sense to put it in Thurles. However, there were no VEC offices in Thurles, but we said that in ten years' time one might consider going to Thurles. We still have to work through SOLAS issue. That property piece will change as social welfare and FÁS offices and so on are rationalised.

If one is looking at the choice the Minister made, there is a record, in the September note back to the Minister with regard to Wexford, following his indication at a discussion. I cannot recall, but I think he wrote "Wexford" on the June submission.

Perhaps the Secretary General would forward a copy of that information to the committee.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, we can send a copy of that information to the committee. He was certainly a Minister who would always mark his views on notes and paperwork. All I would say on the judgment call - I will not comment on what political or local factors might influence any of the decisions - is that we were making a recommendation to a Minister. It was not as if we were saying "this is the lowest contract". We made a recommendation based on many factors and similarly, with the configuration, if one speaks to the IVEA or any group of people they might say that if they looked at the same factors they might call it this way or that way. I would not like it to be thought that our best judgment was overruled.

I did not suggest that. Essentially, the Secretary General is saying that because of the property we almost have to work it out as we go along and see how we can use it. It did not become a deciding factor. It was probably a smaller issue in the overall decision mix as time went on because the Secretary General said she is not factoring in any savings. In a way the buildings issue was almost neutral.

Ms Brigid McManus

They were places where the choice might have been influenced by the size of the building or the expansion capacity. Galway comes to mind. For example, there was much more capacity in the County Galway offices to expand and the leasing issue might have led marginally towards the city of Galway. However, when one factored in how to accommodate the staff as they were moved out, the County Galway offices appeared a much better bet. Property, and potential for expansion building would have been a factor.

That is all I want. I will go through a couple of different issues. How many computers are in the primary and second level schools, given that the Secretary General was able to tell the committee there are 510,000 students at first level and 356,000 at second level? I do not want to know if every child has access to a computer because there may be a computer in a room. Does she know the number, given that she would have paid for them, although I appreciate there would have been local purchasing? We are all aware of pupil-teacher ratios but how many children have access to a computer on which they can work in the classroom?

Ms Brigid McManus

We carry out a periodic survey, because of the private purchase of, and the age of, computers which is a factor if they are 20 years old and work out a ratio across different schools of the number of computers.

How many computers are out there?

Ms Brigid McManus

I cannot tell the Deputy. I will send on a note-----

Will the Secretary General please forward a detailed note to the committee?

Ms Brigid McManus

It may be a year or so out of date.

Last year's figure will do. I know that when a school extension is built, the Department often gives €5,000 per room for IT purposes.

Ms Brigid McManus

We had a major grant programme last year.

That could be for white boards and other equipment, and it may not transfer to hands-on computers and keyboards which young students can use. In this day and age it is as important as learning how to read and write when we were going to school.

What is the starting salary rate for a teacher under the new revised rates? What is the salary scale for the special needs assistants? Teachers have complained to me that special needs assistants are being paid more than them. Is that a valid comment in respect of the starting rate for a new teacher and the scale for an SNA?

Ms Brigid McManus

That is true when we get to a certain point of the SNA scale.

Is it a good idea? Should teachers not in principle be paid more than the SNA in the same classroom? My instinct is quite clear on that.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is an issue in respect of overlapping a scale. If we compare somebody on one scale for 20 years with another person who is starting, then we get overlapping in the public service. The minimum pay, or starting point, for new recruits to SNA posts after 1 November 2011 was €20,869. It was €23,188.

What about the starting salary for teachers?

Ms Brigid McManus

The maximum for the special needs assistant is €32,327. They have a long service increment which can bring them up to €33,605. Under the new scale, a special needs assistant can go from €20,869 to €33,605.

What about teachers with no qualifications, other than teaching qualifications?

Ms Brigid McManus

The basic starting salary is €27,814 and it goes up to €53,423, without any allowances. We are not currently giving any allowance to people, pending the review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That has meant that a starting teacher who comes in after 1 February will have no allowances. In practice before that date, or if the allowances were restored, we take into account that most teachers have an honours degree and a higher diploma in the second level, and they would have supervision and substitution allowances as well.

A significant amount of wages paid to a principal is paid by an allowance, and this is probably a live policy debate at the moment. There are qualification allowances built into the pay scale of teachers. If we look at the basic pay without any allowances, an SNA would have to reach the ninth point of the scale to reach the starting salary of a teacher. By the time a teacher got to the sixth point of the scale-----

How many years is that?

Ms Brigid McManus

It is every year. One of the impacts of the various budgetary changes we have made is to the starting pay of an SNA, which is being reduced by 10%. Due to the changes we have made in qualifications, the salary for teachers starting at the first point of the scale has been reduced by more than the standard 10% which applies to other grades.

Why has capital expenditure for primary and secondary level been merged for 2011? It was always good for public accountability and transparency to know the allocation for primary and secondary level. They have been merged this year and that cannot be helpful in respect of transparency.

Ms Brigid McManus

We ended up moving between them every year. We have published an annual programme for spending this year, which breaks down according to majors, minors, primary and post-primary schools. We found that as we went in and some projects fell behind or some did not, we ended up moving between the two sectors. It was a question of flexibility.

A total of €17 million was spent on the National Educational Psychological Service. This is a very important issue for many parents of children with special needs. I feel that the NEPS assessment system is being rationed. A school is informed that it can only carry out a certain amount of assessment, and if it has more children presenting who need a NEPS assessment, they cannot get it. How many children received a NEPS assessment last year? What ages were they? What were the waiting times?

So many parents come to TDs saying that they cannot wait any more. It is being suggested to them that they get a private assessment, but many of these parents cannot afford it. That is a regular feature of life for parents with such children. They are very conscious of their children starting school, and they feel that if they are starting with a disadvantage they would like to get their child assessed. What happens when they cannot even get that assessment? The principal has to make the call on which child he sends forward for the assessment, but there appears to be a serious rationing of the assessments. This is a major source of trauma for parents with children who need these assessments.

Ms Brigid McManus

This is an ongoing issue and I have had discussions with our own psychologists on it. I know exactly what the Deputy means. Many people have discussed this with us over the years. Effectively we do not keep the figures in the format the Deputy is asking. A NEPS psychologist is attached to a school and has a certain amount of schools. We keep them for the ones that we pay private psychologists to do.

I do not understand. Is McManus saying that the Department pays for the private psychologists?

Ms Brigid McManus

We have a system whereby the educational psychologists have a certain number of schools in a region. Each educational psychologists employed by us will service a number of schools in their region. However, we have gaps either because we have not enough staff or when somebody goes on maternity leave or whatever. We have a scheme for commissioning psychological assessments for private psychologists, so if a school is not being serviced by a NEPS psychologist, it is entitled to draw on the private scheme. We know how many are on the private scheme.

The NEPS psychologists have a certain amount of time to give a school and they will agree on how much of that time is used for group work, advising teachers and so on, and how much is used for the traditional assessment for resources. Assessments can be done for other purposes. If a kid is very bad and acting up, an assessment will be done for the purpose of a learning plan, as well as the assessment for resources.

In practice, we have been trying to get schools to do a staged system of learning. In other words, for certain kinds of behaviour, the class teacher will be supported and will deal with it in certain ways, and a full assessment will only be triggered when the student gets to a certain point.

One of the reasons we brought in a general allocation model for primary schools was so that a school did not have to get assessed for resources for what might be called the milder end of the spectrum. We are using many psychologists' resources to do assessments to get resources. There is now an issue at second level, because many of those students are moving up and we do not have a similar system at second level. We are looking at how we can provide resources to schools to deal with the more common needs that we would expect in schools. It is more difficult at second level than at primary. In this way, students will not have to go through psychological assessment to access resources unless they are at the more severe end.

In practice, most of the colleges work on what they regard professionally as the number of assessments that should be needed by schools. There is a process whereby if a school feels it is not getting sufficient assessments because it has a disproportionate number of such children, it can appeal to the regional manager of the psychologists. I am not saying I have unlimited money, but I have had this debate before about whether we need to put more money into the scheme of private psychological assessments. We do not cap that for money reasons. We are advised by our psychological service that the way we operate is the best way in terms of the interest of the child. I am not saying there are not people doing private assessments and that people are not going to the St. Vincent de Paul and looking for them. We try to put protocols in place with the St. Vincent de Paul so that if it becomes aware of an area with a lot of demand it will take a particular action.

We hear of cases anecdotally - I hear of them myself from friends and relatives - in which school principals suggest assessments outside the system. It is not as simple as saying we do not have enough people and there is a waiting list for assessments. I could obtain a note on this for the committee and if it wishes to have a discussion with the head of the psychological service, it could do so.

I will ask Ms McManus for that. I will be honest and say I am genuinely more disheartened after listening to her than I was before, because she is telling me we spend €17 million but we do not even count the number of NEPS assessments we do. I am amazed that we do not even know the number of assessments we are carrying out. I know Ms McManus will say the system is devolved to the regional psychological services and that people want to pay for it privately. I worry about the fact that parents can pay privately for an assessment. Can they jump the queue past the child whose parents do not have the money to get it done privately? On the general allocation, many principals say they are allowed to do only two assessments per year, and this is taken as the way things are in a particular school. I am very worried about what I am hearing. I know there is rationing because parents come to us and say they have gone to the school and the principal cannot get their child approved for an assessment because it is up to the principal to nominate the children who are assessed.

In the note Ms McManus will give us, can she tell us whether she has a role in NEPS assessment for children who are going through the early childhood care and education scheme? We are aware that problems which require an assessment become very apparent when children are three or four years old. One does not have to wait until the child is seven or eight. The problems are visible. The minute the child arrives in the child care facility for the ECCE year, it is patently obvious to the people there that this child may need assessment. There is a provision for children to spread their one year in the ECCE programme over two years if there is a reason for it, such as a psychological issue. Is it the Department of Education and Skills or the Department of Health that handles that?

On a related issue, the next question I was going to ask was about the school completion programme and the National Educational Welfare Board, which has now left the Department and gone to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. Common sense tells one that some of the children who have difficulties early on, and possibly did not get an assessment, will end up coming to the notice of the National Educational Welfare Board because they cannot go to school due to the difficulties they are experiencing. They are the children who drop out and end up in the school completion programme. There is a definite link between the children coming in at one end and those who are trying to get out early and not going to school at all by the time they get to their early teens. Have the staff - and therefore the expertise - associated with the school completion programme and the National Educational Welfare Board moved to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs? Is there now a lack of linkage because there is a different Department dealing with schools? How does this tie in with home-school liaison officers? It is a great move to have such issues dealt with by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, because some children have wider issues that go beyond education, but Ms McManus can see the point I am making. I would like a note on this, because we could talk about this for the day, but I do not think people want to listen to it. I will ask her for a quick observation now, but the best way is a comprehensive note on the issues I am raising.

Ms Brigid McManus

I will certainly let the Deputy have a note. I have obviously been very unclear if the Deputy felt we were not measuring the effectiveness of the €17 million. The National Educational Psychological Service is part of the Civil Service Department, although it is obviously a specialist area. A good quality educational psychological service for schools is not about carrying out assessment for resources. It is about supporting schools in dealing with students with various needs. What is needed in different students' cases will be very different. It is an area we measure, but it is measured in terms of interventions per child, case load and so on - the classic measurements. It is measured to even up case loads, but actually the measurements are much wider than just the psychological assessment. I will certainly provide a note about the number of assessments and the way we are trying to do it.

When we talk about assessments for resources, we are usually talking about what I might call special educational needs due to diagnosed disabilities, as opposed to students who, for home factors or whatever other reason, have problems in school and perhaps drop out early. There is an overlap, and there can be issues for schools in this regard. This is one of the reasons DEIS schools are always the priority for NEPS if there is a shortage, so that 97% of them are covered. There is an overlap, but the assessment of need is more for students from any background who may be dyslexic or have autism or Down's syndrome. There may be a bit of overlap behaviourally between that and the disadvantage and home factors.

The early childhood scheme is under the remit of the health services. Under the Disability Act, an assessment is triggered by the health services, for health purposes and everything else, for students of a certain age. We have a lot of groups with health and local connections who make sure those diagnoses and assessments are done in a way that facilitates the transition to school, so that another assessment for resources is not required. Having managed NEWB and the school completion programme, I can tell the Deputy there is a considerable link, but there had been a disconnect with what I might call the social work side, which many of the students are in. The school completion programme deals with a wider group than families in difficulty. Wherever in the continuum one puts the divide - it is a bit like FÁS, which is relevant to the Departments of Education and Skills, Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, and Social Protection - one must make sure the links work well. There is a major connection with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs on many things, not just this.

At local level in the NEWB, we are trying to get good groups that work and good protocols between psychologists, those in the NEWB, social workers and whoever else is interacting with a particular child. That was an issue even before it moved. There is a lot of logic in moving the NEWB to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, because non-attendance at school has a close connection to family interventions and social worker issues, but I am not saying it does not overlap with us or that we do not need to be aware of it. There is a considerable connection with the operation of schools, because the NEWB has a lot of functions that relate to giving advice to schools about disciplinary issues and so on. In that area, we disentangle some of those functions back to ourselves. There will continue to be quite a close connection between us on that.

I have one last question on public private partnerships. Ms McManus might be able to tell us offhand how many schools have been completed. We know there are excellent projects in Laois-Offaly. How many are in progress? What is the estimated cost of these for each year in the future?

Ms McManus might clarify the figures that were provided earlier. Under capital expenditure for this year, there is a figure of €54 million for public private partnerships, but in her briefing notes there is a figure of €37 million under current expenditure. Are the public private partnership projects costing €91 million in the current year? Is the €37 million part of the €54 million, or is it additional? If the capital budget for schools is of the order €500 million, are we meeting the commitments in respect of the public private partnership schemes in place and those due to come on stream? Will those still in the system end up having first call each year on 20% or an increasing share of the capital budget just to service the contractual agreements that will run for the next 20 or 30 years? The Department must have figures in this regard. How much will it cost? We have seen a reduction in the capital expenditure budget across all Departments this year and I imagine this will also take place next year. If there are contractual commitments, PPP contracts will consume a greater amount of capital to meet old contractual commitments, even though there will be no new capital spend.

Ms Brigid McManus

I will give a quick answer and my colleague can correct me if I am wrong.

Will Ms McManus send a note to the committee?

Ms Brigid McManus

Let us consider the pile of bundles in place. If I recall correctly, we must charge against the capital budget in the Estimate when we take on certain costs. That is the capital figure to which the Deputy referred. I will outline the costs in 2012 for pilot bundles one, two, three and four. Pilot bundles one and two are already operational. Bundles three and four are under way but have not yet been completed. From all of these we rise from a payment of €32 million in 2012 to unitary payments of €60 million by 2018.

There are current payments also.

Ms Brigid McManus

If I recall correctly, they are made from our current budget. A new arrangement has been introduced. However, the question is still the same. Where unitary payment bundles arise, it can sometimes be harder to find current figures. If the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform puts it to me that I must live within the current budget, it exerts pressure on me whether the money comes from the current or capital budget. The arrangement with the newer bundles is that we must charge them against the capital spend. This is one of the reasons we pulled out of some of the projects following reductions in expenditure. The announcement in the budget related to some of the projects in bundle three. We took the view that we could not deliver some of them. Considering the ongoing cost, we took the view that we would not be able to deliver what we needed to deliver within the capital allocation.

On the schools side, the schools in the bundles were building. Schools had to be built because if we did not build them, there would be no places for children. They would have been the first choice in respect of our capital moneys. A different argument arises in that respect. One must build schools if children have no place to go otherwise. We will send the committee a note on the actual figures involved.

I wish to ask some questions. Will Ms McManus tell us how many are employed within the Department to oversee the spend of the VEC sector? Is there a special section?

Ms Brigid McManus

Mr. Matthew Ryan deals with the governance of VECs and VEC budget accounts. He also deals with all payments and funding to all first and second level schools. This relates to the non-pay area. Staffing allocations and capital budgets are dealt with by other areas. However, the oversight of the VECs forms part of Mr. Ryan's work. He will outline the number of staff involved.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

I have one assistant principal officer, two higher executive officers, one executive officer and two clerical officers.

What is the total?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

There are six staff.

As part of their job they oversee the VEC sector. It is part of the work they do, but they have other work to do. Is that the case?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

I deal with the VECs part of the time. I also deal with the funding allocated to all first and second level schools.

There are six staff. Is that correct?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

Six staff work under me full time on the VEC sector.

When Mr. Ryan uses the word "governance", does he mean he polices whether the VECs generally comply with the letters from his Department setting down the regulations? Do the six staff examine the accounts of the VECs?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

We do not examine the accounts on a day-to-day basis. VECs seek funding from the Department on a monthly basis to meet their pay and non-pay commitments. We control this, examine the returns and monitor their spending.

What about the end of year returns?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

When the accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, they come to my section and we examine them.

Has the section been in place for years, say, since 2004 onwards, or is it a new one?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

Essentially, the section has been in place, perhaps not in its current format, since before I joined in 2001.

Let us consider the three VECs. During all of these years the Department did not spot any of the issues under discussion. Is that the case? I am keen to get an idea of how this works.

Ms Brigid McManus

Let us consider some of the things we issued during the period. We would have had concerns. We established five new governance arrangements that led to audit committees being put in place. We also established the vocational support services unit, VSSU. We were involved when the Youthreach issue came up. We asked the VSSU to examine all of the Youthreach issues involved and carry out a sample audit. We do not micromanage or examine the detail of what they do to the extent that we could spot these issues, unless someone reports them to us or an auditor picks up on them.

There are people who receive the accounts every year and are responsible for the spending of almost €1 billion of taxpayers' money, yet they did not spot any of the issues in examining the accounts or engaging with the VECs. Does the Department do spot-checks on VECs? In the course of a given year would it decide to examine three VECs or one, for example? Does it work in this way?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a governance structure in a given VEC which is accountable to a VEC committee under law. There are certain executive and reserved functions. Then there are issues on which we interact with them on a day-to day-basis. We rely on audits to ensure there are procedures in place to deal with matters, whether it be internal audit, the Comptroller and Auditor General or the normal reporting mechanisms. There are certain arrangements for doing spot-checks as part of the normal capital programme.

Although it did not pick up the enrolment problem, there are enrolment checks. For example, when we receive the returns from all second level schools, including VECs, they give us PPS numbers; therefore, there are certain checks to determine two people are not enrolled in different schools. We carry out such checks, but we rely on internal audit and the Comptroller and Auditor General, as we do with any of the bodies which have separate legal status, to do spot-checks as part of what they do from day to day.

Mr. Ashe, do you have an audit committee?

Mr. Seán Ashe

Yes.

When was it established?

Mr. Seán Ashe

I believe it was in 2006 after F5 of 2005.

Ms Russell, are you on the committee?

Ms Joan Russell

We have an audit committee.

Since when?

Ms Joan Russell

Since late 2005 after F11 of 2005.

Prior to that date there was no audit committee. Is that correct? Prior to the establishment of the audit committees, the six staff in the Department did not pick up on any of this stuff because of the legal status of the VECs. Is that correct?

I will give a flavour of what happened while that was going on. For example, in the case of Mr. Ashe, the auctioneer received €140,000 in 2008. How was the auctioneer selected? Was he found in the Golden Pages? Was there a random selection or did he have a history of giving great value for money?

Mr. Seán Ashe

The issue was of value for money. The going rate at the time was 1.5% to 2% and we got a rate of 0.5%. We carried out due diligence on him. There was an element of trust and independence. We got an impartial service.

What cost €140,000?

Mr. Seán Ashe

The complete disposal of the site in Naas. It was valued, marketed and he ensured the contracts were unconditional. He brought closure to the sale.

I asked Mr. Owens to discuss company A, which bought laptops.

Mr. Ted Owens

Company B bought laptops.

What was the profit on them? The company simply bought laptops, gave them to the school and made a profit. The school did not decide to do a comparison in the marketplace of the cost of a laptop versus the cost when purchasing it through company A or B. That never happened. How much was spent on laptops as a result?

Mr. Ted Owens

The laptops cost about €12,000. The internal auditor found they could have been purchased by the VEC for €10,000.

Did it not occur to anybody within the VEC to look at outside costs?

Mr. Ted Owens

We have procurement procedures which meant that in this instance three quotations should have been sought. The principal in the school was in charge and had the job of ensuring three quotations we sought. The quotations were valid in this instance. The principal was shown catalogues and Internet prices, and made the comparison. However, the comparisons were not valid.

Mr. Owens was asked if he questioned the person concerned. I suggest you do that and give us the information. All of this went on under the watch of the Department. It, without going to the Comptroller and Auditor General, does not check on this property and its €1 billion spend. I will not say it was allowed to happen, but it happened without any alarm bells going off.

The question of whether this might be happening in other VECs was asked. There are three VECs before the committee today. I compliment them on what they said and how they have conveyed the information requested in terms of the questions asked. It is appalling that this went on within the VECs. The question of what happened is always asked in this committee. One finds out what happened and none of the stuff about good practice or good governance ever happens until after the event.

The response of Accounting Officers or Departments is that they introduced different procedures after something happened which now makes them the best in the class. If that happened in private businesses, someone would have been sacked or a business would have closed. It is as simple as that. They would have monitored best practice and applied it at every single turn. The Department does not seem to do that.

I have looked at other VECs. It would be unfair to name them. The purchase of legal services was the subject of a parliamentary question, therefore I can name the VEC concerned, Wexford VEC. It bought services willy-nilly. I do not think there was any tendering process. It would appear that the practice of identifying some VECs and questioning how they do their business does not happen even now. The VECs before the committee have learned and put in place different governance practices. That does not excuse what happened. The Department needs to learn a lesson, namely, that it too should select at random different VECs and check what is going on.

People listening to this hearing would be shocked and horrified at what the VECs and people who work within them got away with. Someone said it was a bad day at the VEC sector. Not all of them are bad but we also need to make sure the €1 billion of taxpayers' money is protected from the Department down to the people who spend it.

Ms Brigid McManus

Of course I agree these kinds of practices and the litany of stuff that came out at other times are things people would be rightly very concerned about. We have done things in advance, in terms of putting processes in place. We have put audit committees in place and required VECs to do that. It was not in the 2001 legislation. We did not do that because anything emerged but because of the emerging good practice. The current governance policy is to try to take on board stuff like whistleblowers and other developments.

In terms of laying down the framework in which VECs operate, we try to anticipate issues. The question concerns the relationship between a Department and the bodies it funds, and what it relies on for verification and to check what is there. In terms of my staff, if those who are inspectors, in the psychological service or running the building unit are taken out of the equation, we run a very light administrative structure in education.

There are 4,200 schools, other than the VEC sector of 300 schools, for which we provide funding and staffing allocations. In the case of VECs, which are separate structures, we do not do independent checks of the individual detail of how they operate. We will ask questions if something is up with the accounts. Some of the losses should have come to our attention because they should have shown up in the accounts. We can change the format of accounts to raise issues that we can deal with.

We would not see it as our function within something that has an independent and separate legal basis. It is our function to make sure there is an internal audit function, for example, the VSSU. If something comes to our attention it is our function to try to make sure we put more robust processes and instruments in place. At the end of the day, if a Minister is of the view that a VEC which has an independent legal structure is not operating correctly a full investigation could be mounted. That situation is somewhat different.

While we can try to introduce procedures, such as that CEOs have to personally sign off on enrolment to make sure we do not have issues to bring to people's attention, the kinds of things we are talking about would only show up if somebody was looking at individual documentation in individual schools and practices. We would see that as the function of the internal audit unit, which we are on the steering committee of. We asked it to look at things but we do not see that as a function of a section of the Department.

If we were to get into that relationship space, there would be issues about governance structure that was set up under the legislation and the capacity of the Department and the number of people required to do that kind of verification. Perhaps we should have more people in the internal audit unit doing more of these checks and perhaps we should be doing a bigger programme of audit. There may be lessons we can learn as regards some of the centralised procurement. I do not think I can envisage a situation where the Department itself would be out doing checks on the operation of units underneath VEC control, in other words, VEC schools.

I am simply asking that we would have some degree of respect for the taxpayer who funds us all. The €1 billion which goes to funding the VECs should be monitored somewhat better. This does not mean that the Department has to inspect every VEC school. For instance, Revenue does not inspect but they will randomly select people for a VAT audit or income tax or a deeper audit. Because of the amount of money involved, I would have thought the Department would carry out a random check on different VECs, if for nothing else but to keep them on their toes. It is obvious they were not on their toes that much and people got away with what they got away with. I am asking that lessons be learned. We have heard from the VEC delegations this morning that lessons have been learned and I ask that the Department would learn a similar lesson. If a change in legislation is required then I suggest the Department makes that recommendation to the Minister to allow the Department to randomly select some VECs and to carry out an audit. There are too many complaints coming from different VECs as to how they spend money. I gave the Secretary General an instance just now. I could have asked about the cost of the report into Kilkenny VEC, for instance, the length of time it has taken and the outcome of the report. I could ask what is the negative impact or otherwise on that particular VEC. I could take a step further and in line with the question asked by other Deputies ask about the headquarters and the recommendations being made about the locations of headquarters. We will come back to the governance issue in a moment.

I understand that the annual charge for rent on the property in Longford was in the region of €20 and the new lease to move the headquarters onwards is costing €120,000. I understand land was purchased around the location in Longford for other educational uses and that a considerable amount of taxpayers' money was spent in upgrading the property, only for the decision then to be made to move the headquarters elsewhere. What was the logic behind that decision? This is not a local issue as far as I am concerned but rather a concern about how these decisions are made versus the costs involved. When I asked a parliamentary question on this issue, I have to say I was shocked at the difference in the cost of the lease and other costs involved and the expenditure relative to the property in Longford. I ask the Secretary General to say what was the cost of the property in Longford versus the property in Mullingar in order to clarify that figure.

Ms Brigid McManus

The annual rent in Mullingar is €118,300 and in Longford it is a peppercorn rent because it is a State property, a rent of €13.33 a year. It is what we would regard as a peppercorn rent and it is situated in what is effectively a State-owned property.

The rent is €13 a year versus €118,000.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a long lease going with the €118,000 but the decision in the Longford-Mullingar case to choose Mullingar was taken both because of the spatial strategy centre and its location in the county being the best long-term strategic central location.

How much was spent on upgrading the Longford property?

Ms Brigid McManus

We envisage that those two offices will be operating for quite a while, given the distances involved in Longford-Westmeath. I do not know if we have a figure here but I can check it out.

Would it have been €2 million?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

Certainly not on the lease due.

On the different property that was there?

Ms Brigid McManus

We can get that figure for the committee.

The property in Longford was upgraded to an appropriate standard. A considerable amount of taxpayers' money was spent on it prior to this decision having to be made as to Longford or Mullingar. A lot of money had been spent on this office which was then perfectly good. This money was sanctioned by the Department. The rent is €13 a year. A decision was then made to move to a property at a cost of €118,000 a year.

A question was asked earlier about three or four VECs moving headquarters and the question of a lease on the properties. Deputy Fleming asked the question. It seems the Department has not decided how it will put those vacant buildings to use but it has decided to retain them. What is the cost of these vacant buildings in each of those locations? I presume that staff will now be moved from Longford to Mullingar, therefore, some part of the building will be vacant and we know the rent is €13 a year. In the case of Kilkenny and Tullamore, where 16 years remain on the lease, how much will it cost the State per year?

Ms Brigid McManus

I can provide the actual detailed figures for each of the properties but I do not have them immediately to hand. In some cases we maintain more than one location for a period and in some cases we would be re-organising functions and some functions will stay in two locations for quite a considerable period of time. Certainly in most of the cases I do not envisage in the immediate next few years that we would have vacant buildings with leases we are unable to dispose of. It may happen in some cases but I will provide the figures for the committee.

This is an even worse scenario. A headquarters has been relocated and I presume this was done with a view to saving costs but it now has emerged that in spite of this, and for a number of years to come, we will be paying for the new headquarters - which will need to be brought to a certain standard - while we will also be paying for the former headquarters. In each such case I ask for a costing for the old location versus the new location, the period of time which may have to elapse before the move is complete from the old headquarters and where leases or buildings are now vacant. Also, how much will it cost in cases where the Department wishes to retain such buildings for a period of time such as to the end of the lease period? These are significant figures. I would have presumed the Department would have had those figures because decisions have been made about these properties.

Ms Brigid McManus

We have the figures. I can provide a tabular statement of the leases in each area.

Please provide that statement.

Ms Brigid McManus

As regards costs, savings emerge immediately in cases where we have 16 chief executive officers rather than 33 chief executive officers. If we have 16 committees with a smaller number of members and therefore fewer meetings, there is a lower cost for meetings. The immediate upfront costs were always envisaged to be the chief executive officer, the reduced number of committees, the costs. Savings can be achieved in terms of the other staff by reconfiguring functions which will not necessarily mean that staff have to move. In other words, certain functions that might have been undertaken by two people can now be done more efficiently by one person across the totality of the VEC. We will certainly supply the committee with the information on the rents for each of the VEC headquarters.

The explanation of how the savings can be made is no excuse for poor arrangements with regard to property.

Ms Brigid McManus

I fully accept that. However, in examining the structure of VECs into the future, one of the arguments for the VECs being larger was in order to secure entities that could give us better functionality in terms of such issues as managing schools, dealing with underperforming schools and ensuring an education officer is accessible to all schools. An issue on which we will have to make a judgment is where the headquarters would best be situated in the long run, taking account of transport links and the geographic configuration of the new entity. If one compares Longford and Mullingar, for example, the latter is a much more central location in terms of servicing that entity in the longer term.

I accept that. However, I would also be comparing costs before making a decision on that move. When one is looking at a cost of €118,000 versus €13, there would have to be a substantial argument to persuade me towards the former. Neither Mullingar nor Longford is in my constituency, so I can easily speak about this issue. The figure of €118,000 shocked me and I have seen no analysis that would change my view on it being poor value for the taxpayer.

In regard to Wexford VEC, I raised the matter of the payment of a colossal amount of money in legal fees in respect of a very minor incident. I am not convinced by this morning's exchange that the Department understands the importance of controlling the expenditure of €1 billion by the VECs. I do not expect the Department to manage every VEC; I understand the legalities around their position. However, this committee's remit is about ensuring value for money for the taxpayer and maintaining some confidence in the system. The Department has a way to go before it restores confidence that all the VECs are working within regulations and that they understand the audit requirements. There must be no doubt about the determination of the Department to control this money.

I encourage the Department to take further steps in organising the unit in order to ensure careful oversight of the expenditure of VECs and clarity as to what the Department expects them to do. Setting aside the question of whether or not the number of VECs is reduced, the system certainly has not delivered value for money to the taxpayer or comfort that the system is under control. The matter of the location of headquarters, as raised by Deputy Deasy and others, leads me to believe that very little work went into convincing the political masters that a particular course of action should be taken in areas where - again, I refer to the case of Longford and Mullingar - better value for money could have been achieved. Will Mr. Derek Nolan comment on that?

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform does not get involved in the detailed running of the VECs. However, we hope and expect that the value for money arguments are put on the table when any expenditure decisions are being made. The Chairman spoke about ensuring we get better value for money in future in terms of where money is being spent and how effectively programmes are managed. We are trying to overhaul the governance structure of the public service as a whole and to ensure all public servants are aware of their obligation to provide value for money. That is a major priority for the Minister and a central aspect of our work. One can have systems of governance and frameworks for procurement and so on, but at the end of the day one is dependent on individual civil and public servants to live up to their responsibilities in ensuring those systems and frameworks function in the public interest.

The Revenue Commissioners are dependent on collecting money from businesses in this State. Therefore, they use audits to ensure businesses pay their taxes promptly. As such, the Revenue is a hard-centred operation, in contrast to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which seems to be a soft-centred operation. I do not expect the Department to micro-manage the VECs, but I would have expected Mr. Nolan to indicate that he was a little concerned about what he has heard this morning. I expected that he might insist that procedures be put in place within the Department of Education and Skills to ensure that some of the issues that have arisen do not recur and that we understand how they occurred in the first place. Instead, Mr. Nolan seems to be displaying the same hands-off approach we have had from the Department of Education and Skills. I would have expected a great deal more in terms of action to ensure we get value for money.

Will Mr. Nolan re-examine his Department's oversight of the Department of Education and Skills in order to ensure there is greater accuracy in the future? We are talking about the VEC sector, but I imagine the same line of thought could be applied to other sectors such as the institutes of technology, universities and so on. If I got the same replies from the delegates relative to those sectors as I have received in respect of the VEC sector, I would be extremely concerned. The Department of Education and Skills is a big-spending Department and I would expect it to control its budgets with the same diligence with which the Revenue manages ordinary taxpayers.

I have looked through the accounts for Sligo Institute of Technology and identified several issues of concern. I have no reason to suspect anything untoward in respect of this institution; I simply chose one of the sets of accounts that came in to the committee. Some of the figures are questionable. For example, under the analysis of expenditure heading, a sum of €384,000 is indicated under "other expenditure", up from €352,000 last year. The Department should be asking what that is about. That is how small companies do their business; they take the headline figure and see whether they can cut back on it. In the case of Sligo Institute of Technology, there is a substantial figure in regard to marketing. I would want to know whether that could be cut back. It is the type of figure that might lead one to perform a random audit. A sum of €353,000 is indicated for advertising of courses. There may be a perfectly good reason for that, but I would want to know what it is. I am surprised that neither Department has a mechanism in place to clarify such issues. We are all here to learn lessons and to ensure we have best practice, or better than best practice, systems in place. Will Ms McManus comment on that?

Ms Brigid McManus

For our part, there were certainly issues that arose in this case. We will examine whether there are actions we can take to ensure better oversight at the appropriate level. It may be a case of how we operate such mechanisms as the vocational support services unit, VSSU, and whether we should be doing more at the macro level. It is something we will undertake to examine.

I asked Ms Brigid McManus about the costs of the Kilkenny VEC inquiry.

Ms Brigid McManus

The Chairman referred to the proposal in regard to the education and training boards that sworn inquiries be removed as a method of dealing with issues of staff underperformance and so on. That arises precisely because of some of the problems we ran into in the Kilkenny inquiry. That inquiry cost €326,000 in the period 2006-2011, with the bulk of the costs, €212,000, being legal costs, and some €100,000 going to the inquiry officer.

Did that process lead to the problem being resolved?

Ms Brigid McManus

The person concerned has obtained a temporary High Court injunction preventing her dismissal. The case is currently before that court.

So there will be even more costs involved.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes. The difficulty is that the process of actually being obliged to have a sworn inquiry to deal with issues relating to performance, under-performance or dismissal does not apply in other sectors or in the more general area of education. They are dealt with through normal labour law and in the courts. That is where we want to get to in the future in the context of the VECs.

Does Mr. Buckley wish to comment?

Mr. John Buckley

I wish to mention two matters. Clearly, the issue that is surfacing here relates to how we prevent and detect these matters. It might be useful to attack them at two levels. If we could lever more assurance from the statements of internal financial control which are produced within the VECs, it could be a very good practice for the CEO to seek assurances from the principals about the things to which he is committing when signing the statement of internal financial control. It would be good if principals and various others with devolved functions could provide him with assurances in respect of matters such as procurement and with regard to the returns that are made independently to the Department. A range of procedures of that nature would at least alert people to the fact that the CEO is monitoring an issue and demanding that they be accountable in respect of it.

The other matter relates to the fact that the VSSU, which is a national body, clearly operates as an internal audit function and reports to audit committees within the VECs. It might be useful to have something approaching a national audit committee.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a committee which is chaired by one of the VECs and on which we are represented. This committee prepares reports for the Department regarding broader issues that arise and in respect of which we need to make changes in the context of procedures. I am not necessarily stating that there is not more we could be doing. The committee in question is slightly different to an internal audit committee of a VEC in that it has a function whereby it produces reports for the Department regarding systemic changes which need to be made or actions which need to be taken. The audit committee is responsible for drafting the audit plan, the financial plan and the annual report. It comprises the CEOs of five VECs, two representatives from VEC administrative staff, one from the IVEA and two from the Department. As a result of the fact that the City of Dublin VEC has a slightly different audit system, it has its own unit. The CEO from the City of Dublin VEC, therefore, also attends the committee in order to make a link across that. Perhaps we could discuss with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General whether that procedure could be enhanced. It does operate to some extent in that way nationally as well.

Mr. John Buckley

What I was leading up to is the need to distinguish between risk-based audit work and random audits which would reveal certain things about the system and provide feedback. These might also surface issues such as those in the area of Youthreach, which we have not discussed today but which might require to be considered on a national basis. The national committee to which I refer could function as a directing mechanism in some respect for the VSSU activity. A combination of greater assurance at local level on the part of the CEOs and more focused audit activity at national level could be part of the solution. While things will always go wrong, what we have to do is take the governance changes have been put in place and ensure that we lever the maximum amount of assurance or feedback from them going forward.

I reiterate the need for people to become involved in controlling the spend. Again, I am unhappy with regard to the position of the Departments of Education and Skills and Public Expenditure and Reform. We have now discovered that there is a national audit committee of sorts but this does not function in the way we believe it should. I hope our guests will take on board the different suggestions that have been put forward at this meeting. Is it agreed that the committee should note the section 7 reports: Report of County Kildare VEC 2010; Report of City of Cork VEC 2009 and Report of County Cork VEC 2008; and Vote 26? Agreed.

I again thank the witnesses for attending and for their frank explanations with regard to what occurred. I wish Ms McManus a happy retirement. I thank her for all of her contributions before the committee over the years. Those contributions have been of great benefit to us. I wish Ms McManus well.

Ms Brigid McManus

I thank the Chairman. I wish to take this opportunity to thank the committee and the two secretaries and support staff with whom we have worked over the years. On occasion Secretaries General might feel uncomfortable appearing before the committee. However, it is a major balance in the system and a great way of making progress. In the seven years in which I have been coming before the committee, I have found that the engagement has always been constructive. There might have been occasional matters about which we might have felt a little bruised but, by and large, what we have done here has led to huge improvements. The committee's work is very important. I have been very privileged to have worked with great people in various areas of the public service. The concept of accountability is extremely important both to us and to the public, as is the notion of using it in order to improve matters. On a personal level, I have found that the engagement I have had with the committee, even when robust, has always been fair. I wish to acknowledge that fact and thank members for it.

I thank Ms McManus very much. The representatives from the VECs have seen how the Committee of Public Accounts works. Their appearance here has given us the opportunity to say to the VEC sector in general - and to those who run county enterprise boards and local authorities - that we are keenly interested in how they operate and also how they spend the substantial amounts of taxpayers' money at their disposal. During the course of this Dáil term we will, perhaps, invite representatives from other VECs and from county enterprise boards, local authorities, etc., to come before us to explain how they operate. The process in which we are currently engaged highlights the need for the committee to be reformed and strengthened. We look forward to working closely with those many local organisations which may not have been asked to come before the committee previously. I wish to send out a message, with our guests, that we are intent on using the powers at our disposal to discuss the spending of taxpayers' money by many of the agencies and bodies which may not have had the opportunity to come before us in the past in order to outline the way in which they operate.

Mr. Ted Owens

Common sense would dictate that I should keep my mouth shut and walk out of the meeting.

That is probably true.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

This is when the real trouble starts.

Mr. Ted Owens

I would like to thank the committee. This is not a proud day for the VECs. It has certainly not been a proud day for me and I am somewhat embarrassed that I find myself in this position. However, I wish to state that it is not just as a result of things that have happened that we have put procedures in place. Some of the staff who accompanied me to this meeting have worked in the VEC system for 20 or 30 years. We have always had purchasing procedures in place. We are proud of the way in which we do our business but I am not a bit proud with regard to the huge lapses we discovered in this particular instance. I can only speak for the City of Cork VEC - I previously worked for County Cork VEC - and I am aware that we have tried to uphold the highest ethical standards over the years. We feel a major responsibility in that regard.

The committee has made some good points regarding the Department of Education and Skills. Perhaps the VSSU could be strengthened, etc., and there is also the matter of whether that department is understaffed. There is a huge responsibility on me, as a high paid public servant who has staff, to make sure that things are right in my own backyard. That is a responsibility that we take seriously. We regret that in this particular instance we slipped up. I would not like the message to go out that we are some kind of a carefree crowd. We slipped up badly and put our hands up. We have always had procedures and we need more procedures. We apologise for the mess we found ourselves in on this occasion.

I thank Mr. Owens for that. We appreciate his frankness. The meeting is now adjourned.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 16 February 2012.
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