COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 2013

Business of Committee

Chairman

Given that the meeting scheduled for tomorrow morning with Mr. Paul Maloney has been postponed, we will deal with the business of the committee now. I remind members that we have scheduled a private meeting this evening at 6.30 p.m. to take legal advice on the information we received from the Garda whistleblower. As agreed last week, we will publish our report on banking stabilisation as an interim report as soon as the clerk has finalised it, which will be in the next few days. We will then write to the former regulator, the Central Bank and officials in the Department of Finance requesting that they make themselves available for a hearing on the report.

Nos. 1 and 2 on the agenda relate to the minutes of our meeting of Thursday, 21 November. Are the minutes agreed to? Agreed.

We will now deal with correspondence received since the meeting of 21 November. No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 15 November 2013, from Ms Regina Gannon, chief financial officer of IDA Ireland, responding to issues raised at the meeting of 19 September 2013. The correspondence is be noted and published.

No. 3A.2 is correspondence, dated 21 November 2013, from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, setting out steps to provide protection for whistleblowers. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

I am going to ask that we respond to the letter by saying the whistleblower in the north east has expressed grave concerns about her safety at work owing to bullying and intimidation. We should also ask that the spirit of the legislation be applied in her case.

No. 3A.4 is correspondence, dated 26 November 2013, from Mr. Paul Maloney, former CEO of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA, regarding an invitation to our meeting on 28 November. As stated, that meeting has been postponed. However, Mr. Maloney is working abroad and has apologised to the committee for not being in possession of sufficient information to attend tomorrow. I suggest we arrange a further meeting with him and Ms Brennan, the current CEO of the DDDA, as soon as possible. Perhaps both of them might come before us on the same day - at separate hearings - in order that we might finalise our report on the matter.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

In his correspondence Mr. Maloney claims that the Comptroller and Auditor General is not providing him with information to assist him in appearing before the committee. Is there anything to that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Most of the information Mr. Maloney is seeking is in the form of records of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. It would be best, therefore, if he addressed his queries to the authority. If there is anything with which we can assist the authority in supplying him with information, we will deal directly with it. I want to avoid a situation where we would be giving information that was actually client documentation. There is also a request in respect of an internal working paper of ours which I would not be willing to disclose.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is it an internal working paper in respect of the report previously prepared?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Chairman

Is Mr. Maloney aware of that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Clerk to the Committee

I have so informed him. We have also briefed the DDDA on the matter.

Chairman

Does the DDDA understand the position?

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Mr. Maloney has not been in contact with me. All of the contact has been via the clerk to the Committee.

Chairman

When can we expect Mr. Maloney to come before us?

Clerk to the Committee

I suggest we make arrangements to have him in before Christmas. We might reschedule our workload and bring him in the week after next.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed. The next item is No. 3B, individual correspondence. We will take the first two items which were deferred from last week together. Nos. 3B.1 and 3B.2 are correspondence from Mr. William Treacy regarding Horse Racing Ireland and the Turf Club. It is proposed that both items of correspondence be noted. The issues raised by Mr. Treacy, where they relate to the governance and expenditure of Horse Racing Ireland and-or the Turf Club, will be dealt with in due course. Deputy Sean Fleming raised this matter previously. Does he wish to comment?

Deputy Sean Fleming

What progress has been made in getting representatives from Horse Racing Ireland and the Turf Club to come before us in order that we might address the issues involved? We agreed that they would be invited to come before us, but there is no mention of the matter in our work schedule.

Clerk to the Committee

We are awaiting the 2012 accounts. We will be scheduling a meeting with the two organisations as and when the accounts become available. They have not yet been presented.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They have been signed off on and are with either Horse Racing Ireland or the Department.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Will they be published shortly?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I understand the normal way of proceeding in respect of their accounts is for a memorandum to be prepared for the Government. That is the stage the matter is at and I presume once the accounts are presented to the Government, they will also be presented-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

Therefore, we can arrange a date to meet their representatives when that process has been completed.

Chairman

Okay. No. 3B.3 is correspondence, dated 18 November 2013, from Mr. Michael Barrett, Lakeside Marina, Athlone, County Westmeath. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy will be forwarded to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government for a further note on the issues raised.

No. 3B.4 is correspondence, dated 20 November 2013, from Deputy Mary Lou McDonald regarding public procurement contracts. The correspondence is to be noted and we will seek a report from the relevant Departments. We can follow up with a specific meeting on procurement, if such is required. We had already agreed that we would hold a specific meeting on procurement or we certainly discussed doing so. We did not have the opportunity to discuss the matter on the previous occasion on which the Secretary General of the Department and the new procurement officer came before us. If we could arrange an early meeting on procurement, we could also use the occasion to deal with other outstanding issues. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

On procurement, will the Chairman request that the Department place specific emphasis on the SME aspect?

Chairman

Yes. That is the issue raised by Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.

Clerk to the Committee

There is also the issue of educational supplies to schools.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

There must be a focus on smaller SMEs being able to compete for that work.

Chairman

Am I correct in stating there is now a specific officer who is charged with dealing with procurement?

Clerk to the Committee

That is correct.

Chairman

No. 3B.5 is correspondence, received on 21 November, from Mr. Edward Stevenson regarding the hepatitis C tribunal. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to the Department of Health. The Department confirmed that it was working on the response to Mr. Stevenson's previous correspondence. We will request that this be issued as soon as possible.

No. 3B.6 is correspondence, received on 26 November, from Mr. Brendan Logue, former Registrar of Credit Unions, regarding credit union affairs. The correspondence is to be noted. The committee should hear from Mr. Logue and it can do so in the context of its examination of the accounts of the Credit Institutions Resolution Fund. We are obtaining legal advice on this issue. This item of correspondence was referred to last week because it relates to the Central Bank. The matter of representatives from the bank coming before us was raised by Deputy Shane Ross. If Mr. Logue is prepared to come before us, I propose that we facilitate him in doing so. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is 3C, documents relating to today's meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence, received on 26 November, from Mr. Tony O’Brien, director general of the Health Service Executive, HSE, enclosing his opening statement. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 21 November. No. 4.1 is the Dublin Docklands Development Authority's 2012 accounts; No. 4.2 is the Environmental Protection Agency's annual report for 2012; and No. 4.3 is the St. Angela's College, Sligo, financial statement for the year ended 31 December 2012. The committee has scheduled a meeting to examine the accounts of the DDDA on 6 February 2014.

The next item is No. 5, the committee's work programme, details of which are on screen. After this meeting we will schedule a meeting with the Department of Health on this issue which we will be discussing later. I understand we must decide whether to bring before us the CEOs of the various hospitals, if that is possible. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Gerald Nash

Will we be bringing in the CEOs and the chairpersons of the boards of the hospitals? In some instances, CEOs are in receipt of top-up payments, but it is the chairpersons who sanctioned these payments.

Chairman

We will request that the CEOs and chairpersons of the boards in each case come before us. The hospitals involved do not submit their accounts to us and they are not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I do not know what issues might arise in that regard. As it stands, we will be discussing the matter with the Department of Health and then with the CEOs and chairpersons.

Deputy Simon Harris

That is a very logical way of proceeding. I am sure many of the CEOs and chairpersons will be eagerly following these proceedings. It is important that the committee send a clear message that it envisages asking the CEOs and chairpersons of section 38 institutions to come before it. Regardless of whether people want to be pedantic about to whom accounts are or are not submitted, these individuals make decisions about taxpayers' money. It would be helpful if a message to the effect that we would be inviting the chairpersons and CEOs to come before us were sent, particularly in the context of these individuals making themselves available to come before us.

Deputy Gerald Nash

There would be little point in discussing this matter with the CEOs unless the chairpersons were present. It is the chairpersons and the boards or remuneration sub-committees thereof that are responsible for setting the pay policies of their organisations. The chairpersons must take responsibility in this regard. In that context, it is critically important that we hear from the chairpersons of the section 38 agencies.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

For the record, there are four section 38 bodies which for various historical reasons I audit. They include St. James's Hospital, Beaumont Hospital and Leopardstown Park Hospital.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

What is the fourth institution?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Dublin Dental Hospital.

Chairman

Is it agreed that we will send a clear indication to the CEOs and chairpersons of the boards that, following the appearance of officials from the Department of Health at today's meeting, they will be invited to come before us to discuss this matter? Agreed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I have not had the opportunity to read what the Comptroller and Auditor General has had to say on Vote 39. Did he consider the position of section 38 organisations and agencies in the context of pay policies, etc? Did this matter register on his radar?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Deputy may recall that at a meeting of the committee last year the assistant director of internal audit of the HSE flagged that it was carrying out this work and that it was specifically focused on the section 38 bodies. We were aware that this work was ongoing and that it had put a lot of resources into it. We did not take it any further pending sight of the results of the work. What we did in regard to the bodies we audit ourselves was that we examined the issue of additional allowances. We have issued audit queries to three of the four I mentioned. We have had replies from some but one is still to be completed. Obviously, in light of the hearings here, I will consider whether it would be useful to produce an additional report, but it may be that matters will have been adequately dealt with.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Why do those four hospitals or agencies come within the Comptroller and Auditor General's ambit and the others do not?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is historical more than anything else.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is there a logic to it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am sure there was a logic to it. I cannot off the top of my head say exactly why that is the case, I would need to go back and research it. It may be for different reasons. Agencies spin out from other agencies that are created under legislation under statutory orders of the Minister. In regard to Beaumont Hospital and St. James's Hospital, we were specified as the statutory auditor in those cases. It is a bit anomalous but that is where it is at.

Deputy John Deasy

The Comptroller and Auditor General is saying that depending on what is said and dealt with today, he could issue a further report with regard to those alternative-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, if I thought there was anything further useful to add. There is no point in producing an additional report if it involved just a rehash of the same information and perhaps making the same recommendations. I will consider that when I see the findings from the hospital.

Chairman

No. 6 is any other business.

Deputy Áine Collins

I have a concern in regard to NAMA. I have got some information from people who are supplying some services to NAMA and they have advised that NAMA is very slow to pay the SME sector for any business those in the sector have done on finishing off properties and so on. Also, it is very hard to get information from NAMA. The people who are dealing with NAMA versus Ulster Bank, ACC or the other banks which are managing out a book say it is far quicker to deal with those than it is to deal with NAMA and that its commerce decisions are not the best that could be done for Ireland, especially as we are coming out of the recovery programme and NAMA is the largest asset holder in the State.

I also have a concern about the fact that NAMA is receiving VAT payments in respect of rent on behalf of people and that money is not being paid over to the Revenue Commissioners, rather it is being kept as a liability personally for the individual concerned. I was not here on the day NAMA appeared before the committee but this has only come to light to me in the past two weeks. Should NAMA be brought back in before the committee or should we talk to people who are in NAMA or bring them in and ask them some questions because this is big concern?

Chairman

We can send the agency a transcript of the meeting and if the Deputy wants to provide further information to the clerk to the committee, she can do so. We will alert the agency to the issues the Deputy has raised, ask it for its comment on them and then, if necessary, bring it in. Deputy Eoghan Murphy has asked for a sub-committee to be set up and perhaps this could be part of its work. We could bring it in at any earlier date than what we had arranged previously. If Deputy Áine Collins wants to provides further information to the clerk to the committee, we could send that information to NAMA when we send it a transcript of the meeting.

Deputy Áine Collins

It is just a matter of concern. I thank the Chairman for that.

Chairman

Have other members any issues to raise under any other business? I have two matters. In regard to the school transport system, which was discussed by the committee on a number of occasions, allegations were made about how contracts were awarded. I propose we write to the Department asking it if it is aware of this and asking, for the information of committee members, for a copy of the report into the allegations in order that we would have it when its officials come before us again.

The second matter relates to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine. I propose we raise with it the cost of the court cases it lost relative to the special investigations unit and the general costs related to that unit in order that we can have that information in terms of possibly inviting officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to discuss the matter.