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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 May 2014

Business of Committee

Vice Chairman Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Are the minutes of the meeting of 15 May 2014 agreed to? Agreed.

No. 3 is correspondence received since our last meeting on Thursday, 15 May. No. 3A is correspondence received from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers. No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 21 May 2014, from the Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, on the sale of lands by Coillte. The correspondence is to be noted and published. Deputy Robert Dowds raised this issue at our meeting on 3 October 2013.

No. 3A.2 is correspondence, dated 23 May 2014, from the Secretary General, Department of Social Protection. It is a follow-up with information requested at our meeting on 1 May. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

No. 3B is individual correspondence. No. 3B.1 is correspondence, dated 19 May 2014, from the chairperson of the Office of Public Works on further correspondence concerning Mr. Eugene Mitchell. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy to be forwarded to Mr. Mitchell.

No. 3B.2 is correspondence received on 15 May 2014 from an anonymous source concerning issues at Cork Institute of Technology. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills. The matter was raised at our last meeting with the Department and a response will issue.

No. 3C is correspondence relevant to today’s meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence received on 28 May 2014 from NAMA with briefing material. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

No. 3C.2 is correspondence received on 28 May 2014 from NAMA with the opening statement. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 15 May. The various items are listed in the table.

AUDIT OUTCOME

4.1

Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland

Annual Financial Statements for year ended 31 December 2012

Attention is drawn to disclosures about a number of cases of substantial irregular grant payments.

4.2

Special Account for the Purposes of the Health (Repayment Scheme) Act 2006

Annual Financial Statements for year ended 31 December 2011

Clear audit opinion

Annual Financial Statements for year ended 31 December 2012

Clear audit opinion

4.3

County Clare VEC

Annual Financial Statements for year ended 31 December 2012

Clear audit opinion

4.4

County Dublin VEC

Annual Financial Statements for year ended 31 December 2012

Attention is drawn to Note 3 which discloses the outcome of the investigation of irregularities that occurred at a Youthreach centre between 2004 and 2011. A former employee of the VEC was convicted of fraud and misappropriation of funds. The Committee received a sum of €202,000 from its insurers in settlement of a claim in relation to the irregularity.

These accounts are to be noted and published.

No. 5 is our work programme which is on screen. A meeting with the CRC has been provisionally booked for 3 July; however, the Health Service Executive has not given us a date on which it will submit the Cregan report. My understanding is that it now has the report. We will leave the date of 17 July free, pending a decision by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on our compellability applications. We are not meeting next week.

As far as we know, the Cregan report is in the possession of the HSE. I seek clarification that there is no resistance on its part to give it to us.

Clerk to the Committee

No. My understanding was that the HSE was anxious to do a legal check on it to make sure it could be published and sent to us. There is no issue of holding it back. It told us it was a process it would go through to proof it legally and so on.

I suggest we write to the HSE advising it that we are aware the report has been published and asking that it be furnished as quickly as possible to the members of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

I understand we are awaiting a decision on the compellability applications.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

The clerk might brief us on the position in that regard. On receipt of the Cregan report, is it the view that dealing with it is contingent on the decision of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges? I seek clarification on that point.

Clerk to the Committee

The Cregan report is a continuation of the CRC examination which is entirely separate from the examination of Rehab that is ongoing. My understanding is that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has the two items on its agenda and it is a matter for it to decide. Unfortunately, I cannot hurry it up. That is the position.

It would not be unreasonable to expect that on 3 July, for instance, we would be dealing with the Cregan report.

Clerk to the Committee

That would probably be reasonable-----

That should give more than sufficient time for a legal check.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes. I am anxious that we give potential witnesses an opportunity to prepare for meetings.

Clerk to the Committee

The proposal is that when we receive the Cregan report, I will issue it to potential witnesses. The HSE will give it to us. We will distribute it to members first and to potential witnesses as soon as possible thereafter.

Can we make the HSE aware that we want the CRC representatives to come before us on 3 July and that, in that context, we need the report?

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, they are aware of it.

In fairness to everyone involved.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, that is fine.

The committee is not meeting next week.

Clerk to the Committee

It had been booked in the calendar for some time. A number of members, myself included, probably did not realise that we would not be meeting last week. It was just that we did not have scheduled anything for it.

Why is the committee not meeting next week?

Clerk to the Committee

Because we have nobody lined up to appear.

The clerk is saying-----

Clerk to the Committee

In the original schedule, this was scheduled as a free week because it was a long bank holiday weekend. Consequently, we did not have anybody scheduled and on that basis, a number of us have made, I suppose, contingency arrangements. It probably will end up in divorce or there will be divorce proceedings if it does not come to pass.

Does the Deputy wish to step over the domestic threshold?

I do not think we should go into further detail.

Clerk to the Committee

That is correct. I thank the Deputy.

I commend the clerk on his diplomatic language. He is incredibly skilled.

I suspect the clerk would be more reverential towards his spouse than towards the members of the committee, as would we all.

No. 6 is other business. Do members have any other items of business? Can the committee agree on the agenda for Thursday, 12 June 2014, when it will deal with the 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Vote 38: Health, Vote 39: Health Service Executive and Chapter 21, Budget Management in the HSE?

To clarify, when does the clerk reckon the Cregan report will be before members? Will it be at that meeting?

Clerk to the Committee

While I would suggest to the HSE that it would have it for the committee before that meeting, that meeting is not to discuss the Central Remedial Clinic but to discuss the broader issues relating to a number of matters, including, obviously, the HSE's accounts.

The issue will come up.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, it probably will, so the HSE would be better off to have the report at that stage.

I wish to make a suggestion. Apart from the Cregan report, the committee should put the HSE on alert that the medical card issue in particular will form part of the discussion on 12 June.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes. It is a budget management issue and it has been discussed------

It will be extremely important in respect of the discussion.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think there was a hearing in respect of a chapter dealing with medical cards on which I do not believe the committee has reported yet, so-----

There is scope there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

-----the issues are still live before the committee.

No. 7 is Special Report 81 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency - Progress Report 2010-2012 and the NAMA Annual Report and Financial Statements 2013.

On the point the Vice Chairman made regarding medical cards, it is important that the committee relate to the HSE that it needs those who are dealing with the medical cards to be present at the meeting. The Comptroller and Auditor General has made it clear that there is a remit here and jurisdiction based on that, even though it has not been reported on. However, members need the presence of the senior officials who are directly responsible for the operation of the medical card system and there would be no harm in the Committee of Public Accounts making that absolutely clear.

We will now call in the witnesses.

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