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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 1 Dec 2022

Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes

Mr. John McKeon (Secretary General, Department of Social Protection) called and examined.

I welcome everyone to the meeting. No apologies have been received. If attending in the committee room, attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others against the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and is accompanied this morning by Mr. Mitchell McIntyre, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning, we will engage with officials from the Department of Social Protection to examine the following matters. From the 2021 appropriation accounts for Vote 37 - Social Protection, the Social Insurance Fund 2021, and from the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2021 report on the accounts of public services, chapter 10, regularity of social welfare payments, chapter 11, the recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards, and chapter 14, classification of workers for PRSI purposes.

This morning, we are joined by the following officials from the Department of Social Protection: Mr. John McKeon, Secretary General; Ms Teresa Leonard, deputy Secretary General; Mr. Ciarán Lawler, assistant secretary, finance; Mr. Liam Daly, assistant secretary, control policy; and Ms Philomena McShane, chief accountant. We are also joined by Ms Jenny Connors, principal officer, and Mr. Cathal McDermott, assistant principal, from the relevant Vote section at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The witnesses are all welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse that privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I may direct witnesses to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such directions.

Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As the members are aware, the Department of Social Protection operates a wide range of income support, welfare and labour activation schemes. The Department's overall expenditure on scheme payments in 2021 totalled nearly €29.6 billion. Of this, €8.6 billion or 29% was incurred in respect of two temporary Covid-19 related schemes - the pandemic unemployment payment scheme and the employment wage subsidy scheme.

The Department's expenditure on administration, including pay, amounted to €642 million. Expenditure on the schemes is divided between two accounts: the appropriation account for Vote 37 and the account of the Social Insurance Fund. The Vote account is funded mainly through direct Exchequer issues. In contrast, the Social Insurance Fund is financed mainly from pay-related social insurance contributions. However, in 2021, the fund received an Exchequer subvention from Vote 37 of €2.6 billion.

The audits concluded that the accounts of both the Vote and the Social Insurance Fund properly present the transactions for 2021, resulting in clear audit opinions in both cases. However, I drew attention in my report on both accounts to the likelihood of a material level of irregular payment on welfare schemes. This is a matter which arises each year, and the basis of the concern that I have is explained in chapter 10.

I also drew attention in my report on the Vote account to a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules as disclosed by the Department in the statement on internal financial control. When a person is awarded personal injury compensation, the Department can, in some cases, recover certain social welfare payments it paid to that person. From the introduction of this scheme in 2014 up to 2021, the Department was notified of an average of 6,250 cases per year where it could potentially recover social welfare payments. By March 2022, a total of €532 million had been identified as potentially recoverable. The actual amount that the Department can recover in each case depends on how the personal injury claim was settled and on whether the elements of the compensation award are itemised. For closed cases where compensation was paid to the claimant, the Department had recouped €160 million by March 2022. This represented about 58% of the estimated potentially recoverable benefits from those cases. The examination found that the Department had no basis upon which to recover the remaining 42% either because the compensation award had not indicated an amount in respect of loss of earnings or of profit, or because the amount of the loss indicated was less than the benefits and assistance received by the claimant. The Department now seeks periodic updates from the relevant compensators on the status of each case that commenced since 2020. For cases commenced prior to this, the Department did not routinely seek status updates but is now reviewing these cases.

The examination analysed results of the Department's review of open cases that commenced in 2014. It found that, in 25% of the cases, the compensators had not engaged with the Department's review and that the Department has sought legal advice in pursuing these cases. It also found that 9% of the cases were settled prior to review but the Department was unaware of this and had not recovered relevant amounts.

A key risk to the completeness of Social Insurance Fund contribution receipts is the misclassification of liable persons. Misclassification may arise, for example, where a worker is classified as self-employed and is assigned to class S for contribution purposes but has the characteristics of being an employee who should be assigned to class A.

This would have implications for the insurance contributions paid and for the benefits to which the worker might be entitled.

In July 2021, the Department, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, published a revised and updated code of practice on determining employment status. The code sets out the criteria used to determine whether a worker is employed or self-employed, based on five key factors. The examination considered there were opportunities for the Department to make the code more accessible and to evaluate the extent of use and understanding of the code by stakeholders.

The Department established the employment status investigation unit in 2019, to focus specifically on the misclassification of employment status. To date, staffing levels of the unit have not enabled significant progress to be made across a range of sectors. The Department approved a significant increase to the staffing level for the unit in June 2021. Those positions were expected to be filled starting from September 2022.

Of the targeted investigations completed by the unit in 2021, the classification of workers for PRSI purposes was confirmed in more than half the cases. There was a change in classification from class S to class A in 44% of cases. While the misclassification rate in those targeted investigations was significant, the results provide no indication of the scale of misclassification across the economy generally.

The examination found that while both the Department and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners conducted investigations targeting the misclassification of employment status, neither has quantified the incidence of misclassified workers in Ireland nor estimated the related potential loss of contributions to the Social Insurance Fund. Random sampling and testing of the PRSI classification of a sufficient number of individuals would be required to accurately estimate the prevalence of misclassification of employment.

Mr. McKeon has five minutes to make his opening statement. It is quite long with eight pages in it.

Mr. John McKeon

We will get there.

Mr. McKeon might summarise. I have certainly read it as I am sure the other members have.

Mr. John McKeon

I thank the committee for inviting us here today. I will skip the introduction part because the chairman has already said who is here. Before we turn to the matters tabled for discussion I will give an update in respect of 2022, given that it is December. It has been an exceptionally busy year for the Department. Just as the unprecedented pressures related to Covid-19 were abating we were faced, and continue to be faced, with the twin crises of the war in Ukraine and the, not unrelated, spike in inflation.

Since Russia invaded Ukraine on 24 February, the Department has supported over 65,000 people fleeing the war. Staff from the Department together with colleagues from the Department of Justice and Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth established a one-stop shop reception centre first in Dublin Airport and subsequently in Citywest, as well as Rosslare, with staff from all Departments working extraordinarily long hours to ensure that people arriving were granted international protection status, issued with personal public service numbers, PPSNs, provided with access to income supports and allocated and transferred to accommodation in an expeditious manner. The Department also established outreach hubs in Dublin, Cork, and Limerick cities where Ukrainian refugees who arrived at other ports could access our services. To date we have issued over 65,000 PPSNs, predominantly to women and children, processed over 42,000 claims for income supports and developed and implemented a new scheme - the accommodation recognition payment - which is now being availed of by over 3,500 families hosting Ukrainian refugees.

We have also offered employment supports and services to Ukrainian adults and about 12,000 of them have attended one-to-one engagements with our case officers. Revenue records indicate that about 11,200 of those are now in employment. Total expenditure to date on welfare supports and services to Ukrainian refugees is estimated at €196 million and we estimate that the equivalent of about 200 full-time staff are engaged in delivering and supporting these services. The Department and its staff take pride in this level of response and believe that it acts as testimony to Ireland’s willingness, even in the face of the constraints on our own services, to step up and help ensure that a humanitarian crisis does not translate into a humanitarian catastrophe.

The war in Ukraine and the measures taken by Russia to reduce fuel supplies exacerbated an underlying trend in price increases which had their roots in the monetary expansion implemented in response to Covid-19 and in supply-chain disruption coming out of the pandemic. The Government took steps earlier this year to mitigate this impact including through implementing some budget measures earlier than planned and providing additional payments to people in receipt of the fuel and back-to-school clothing and footwear allowances. More recently the Government agreed the largest ever welfare budget package of €2.2 billion, of which €1.2 billion comprised eight special payments which the Department developed and processed in very tight timeframes in the period since budget day. The total budget package of €2.2 billion is equivalent to about 10% of core social protection expenditure. Analysis by the ESRI indicates that it will be effective in cushioning lower income families from the effect of inflation.

Looking to the future, the Department will continue to argue the case for seeing expenditure on social protection as an investment in social cohesion and human capital vital to the welfare and development of society at all stages of the economic cycle.

While Ukraine and inflation understandably grab the headlines, the underlying core work programme of the Department has also been extremely busy. During the year the Department progressed work on the development of the auto-enrolment pension system; advised and received a Government decision on the approach to the implementation of reforms to the State pension system; prepared and published progress reports on the roadmap for social inclusion; completed a procurement programme for local and national employment services; implemented a new system for ensuring the redundancy payment rights of people affected by Covid-19 temporary lay-offs; migrated its staff to hybrid working; developed and implemented new working arrangements for jobseeker and community welfare services; and developed, and will very shortly open applications to, a new scheme for fuel allowance for people over 70 who are not on an underlying payment. In response to a suggestion made at this committee last year a change was also made to the treatment of rent-a-room income for means test purposes, with the first €14,000 of this income now being disregarded.

Throughout this time the level of demand for our core services has also increased. Applications across all of our main schemes are up on average by over 60% compared with last year and by over 20% compared with pre-Covid levels. Significantly the sting in the Covid-19 tail was evident in the fact that more than 50% of all Covid illness benefit claims received since the pandemic struck were received in 2022. Notwithstanding this level of increase, processing times have remained stable and improvements made during the 2015 to 2019 period have been maintained, as they were throughout the Covid-19 period. This is due in no small part to the dedication of our staff and their willingness to adapt to new ways of working including online service delivery. So far this year the Department has processed over 6.1 million transactions via our online platforms.

While the Department has successfully delivered on this very busy work agenda there are elements of our performance which faced challenges and can improve. For example, there were some delays in processing PPSN applications during the year and the community welfare service experienced service difficulties. The Department took steps to address these issues and performance is improving. Nevertheless, these functions will remain areas of focus in the year ahead.

Payments and services delivered by the Department fall into two broad categories - those based on social insurance contributions and those provided under Vote 37. So, for example, people who suffer from a long-term illness or disability may, if they have enough social insurance contributions, avail of an invalidity pension payment from the Social Insurance Fund, SIF. If they do not have enough contributions, or if they have never worked, they can apply for disability allowance from the Vote. The committee will note, from the 2021 accounts, that total expenditure on Vote 37 services and administration amounted to €18.2 billion. Some €2.75 billion of this amount is accounted for by a transfer to the SIF to fund its deficit and to charge for administration costs incurred on its behalf.

Adjusted for these transfers, expenditure on Vote schemes and administration at €15.4 billion was €959 million lower than in 2021. This is mainly due to all pandemic unemployment payment costs being borne by the SIF in 2021, with €1.3 billion of these costs carried by the Vote. If Covid-related expenditure is excluded from the comparisons, the expenditure for the year, adjusted for the transfer to cover SIF deficit and administration costs, amounted to €10.8 billion, a slight reduction of 1.3% on the equivalent figure for 2020 mainly attributable to reduced spend on working-age payments. Expenditure on social insurance schemes and administration amounted to €14.9 billion. This was an increase of €765 million on the 2020 outturn of €14.1 billion. Again, if Covid-related expenditure is excluded, the adjusted figure for 2021 shows expenditure of €10.75 billion, an increase of €359 million or 3.5% compared with €10.39 billion in 2020.

Combined expenditure, adjusted for the transfers between the Vote and the SIF, including Covid-related spend, of €30.3 billion is broadly the same as 2020 and represents approximately 13% of gross national income for the year. Looking across both the Vote and the fund, and excluding Covid-related payments, total expenditure increased from €21.34 billion in 2020 to €21.56 billion in 2021, an increase of €217 million or 1%.

While this may appear modest, the underlying numbers are very large and it is important to note that Covid-related expenditure would have substituted for some elements of normal expenditure. In addition, there continued to be notable increases in some line items of expenditure. For example, expenditure on pension payments increased by €450.7 million compared to 2021. As previously discussed at this committee, the demographic trends giving rise to this increase are likely to continue with significant implications for expenditure and funding of the social welfare system. In response to the recommendations of the Pensions Commission, the Government has decided to address this challenge primarily by moving to a total contributions approach to pension calculations over a ten-year period and by adjusting PRSI rates on a graduated basis informed by the results from the actuarial review completed every five years. The Government has also decided to introduce flexibility allowing people to defer accessing the State pension in return for an actuarially increased pension payment and to entitle long-duration carers to qualify for full PRSI contributions for pension purposes. The Department has commenced working on these changes with the intention of introducing them from 2024. A proposal with respect to changes to PRSI contribution rates will be prepared in quarter 1 of 2023. The Department will also submit results of the smoothed earnings benchmark for pension rates to the Government as part of the budget process for 2024.

Chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditors General’s report is concerned with control over welfare payments. It makes no recommendations but does note, as in previous years, that net overpayments are material. The Department accepts this finding but in doing so would point out that the overall level of overpayments is in line with that reported by equivalent organisations in other states and with levels of "revenue leakage" reported by private businesses. In addition, the Department would again emphasise that it has to strike a balance between on the one hand, designing and managing large-scale service processes that are reliable, efficient and effective for the overwhelming majority of people who use our services and on the other, implementing controls and checks to assure payment and service integrity to reduce fraud and error. However, we are mindful in doing this that our primary purpose is to support people who need support and that we cannot pursue the elimination of error or fraud at the cost of unreasonably denying entitlement to service or frustrating access to that entitlement. I also repeat what I have said before at this committee, which is that we are mindful that discussions on this topic can tend to focus on the few exceptions rather than on the general rule. In other words, it can focus on the small percentage of claims that give rise to overpayments, in particular the subset of those claims that are fraudulent in nature, rather than on the fact that the overwhelming majority of claims are validly made and legitimately paid. This can, unfortunately, feed ill-informed commentary that does a huge disservice to the honesty and dignity of people who benefit from the payments we make.

In accordance with sections 13 and 14 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2013, the Department is entitled to recover amounts paid out in illness benefit and other relevant scheme payments from compensation awards for loss of earnings subsequently made in respect of a personal injuries claim. Since its commencement in August 2014, the Department has recovered €188 million in payments under these provisions from a potentially recoverable sum of about €300 million. This potentially recoverable amount is the total value of payments made under the relevant schemes in cases where the Department has been notified of a personal injury claim. In practice, all of this amount is not recoverable as between 30% and 40% of awards will not specify an amount in respect of loss of earnings. Under the governing legislation, amounts can only be recovered if the compensation award specifically itemises an amount in respect of "loss of earnings". While the precise value of the realisable amount cannot be determined until cases are settled, the trend to date suggests that the realisable value of cases notified to date is just over €200 million.

Chapter 11 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report sets out the process followed by the Department to manage recoverable benefit cases and makes a number of recommendations, all of which have been accepted.

While Chapter 14 is titled "Classification of workers for PRSI purposes", it is important to note that PRSI classes do not classify workers per se but in fact classify sources of income for PRSI purposes. Different PRSI arrangements apply in respect of income obtained from different sources with these arrangements denoted through 11 different classes of PRSI. So employment income is generally charged at 4% to the employee with a corresponding charge of 11.05% to the employer. However, some incomes are exempt from PRSI or are charged at a lower rate. For example, income paid in respect of the duties performed by office holders is classified as class K. Some non-employment income, for example, income received under approved retirement funds, is charged as class S and the same class S as is used in respect of self-employment income in which case the classification denotes from a PRSI perspective that no employer contribution is due on this income but the standard "employee" rate of 4% is charged to the self-employed worker. A person may in fact pay different rates of PRSI on different sources of income received during the same period.

Reflecting the different rates of PRSI that are charged under different classes, the benefits available to a person also vary by class. For example, there are no benefits available to office holders and class S contributors do not have access to illness benefit unless they also have other classes of contributions paid, while contributions paid on public service or Army incomes may also entitle contributors to a reduced range of benefits.

Chapter 14 is concerned in particular with how the Department distinguishes between self-employment and employment for the purposes of PRSI classification. This is a topic addressed by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his 2017 report and has been a topic of discussion at both this committee and the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands. These discussions have tended to focus on a perceived increase in the incidence of disguised or false self-employment and the criteria used by the Department and others to distinguish between employment and self-employment income.

With regard to the first issue, namely, the incidence of disguised or false self-employment, the available data do not indicate either that there is an increasing use of self-employment or that there is an increasing prevalence of falsely declared self-employment. A study published in 2018 and referenced in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report showed that self-employment as a share of total employment in the economy is reducing over time. I have enclosed as an attachment to this statement a table and chart updating this data showing that this trend continues.

Nevertheless, as each falsely declared case of self-employment represents a loss of income to the SIF and can impact negatively on a person’s social protection entitlements, and in response to concerns expressed at this committee and the social protection committee, the Department has invested in measures to detect and investigate potential cases of false self-employment. This includes the establishment of a special unit called the employment status investigation unit, which now comprises 12 social welfare inspectors and conducts targeted investigations. We have also increased the level of employer PRSI inspections undertaken by our general cohort of inspectors and undertaken large-scale advertising campaigns inviting people to report cases of false self-employment. The evidence from these efforts, in particular the unannounced inspections by our general inspectors and the advertising campaign, suggests that the incidence of false self-employment is not as prevalent as might have been feared. We will nevertheless continue to pursue this issue and build up the capacity of the employment status investigation unit.

With regard to the criteria used to classify employment income for social insurance purposes, the Comptroller and Auditor General sets out the criteria that were initially agreed with the social partners and recently updated and published in the code of practice on determining employment status. It confirms from its audit that these criteria were applied to each of the randomly selected 25 cases taken for review. This was also the case in its review and audit in 2017, which looked at 35 cases.

Based on his review of the data and the approach used by the Department, the Comptroller and Auditor General makes a number of recommendations relating to the accessibility of the code, a proposed programme of random surveys and the setting of targets for inspections by sector, all of which I have part-agreed subject to some reservations set out in the report.

Finally, I take this opportunity to acknowledge and pay tribute to the staff of the Department. Their response not just to the Covid and Ukraine crises but also to the ongoing development and operation of the social protection system is testimony to the value of public service and to what can be achieved, and is achieved every day, by people with a strong public service ethos. I am proud to serve with and be associated with them.

I conclude as I have before by saying that as a Department, while we try to do our best, we are not perfect, we make mistakes and we do not always get things right. We do, however, hope that the committee will agree that we are open to challenge, critique and suggestions for improvements. This process today plays an important role in reminding us of our purpose, helping us to identify areas for improvement and helping us to learn for the future. It is through such a process that we would hope to improve. My colleagues and I will be pleased to take any questions that members may have.

I acknowledge that the work of the Department over the past two and a half years has been extraordinarily good. Covid and the war in Ukraine have brought added pressures along with cost-of-living issues.

I also acknowledge the work of the Department. It must be almost proficient in crisis management because we have had several crises over the past few years. Can Mr. McKeon tell us how much it has cost to date to develop the public services card?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not have the up-to-date figures but I can get them for the Deputy. We published a report in 2021 on value for money and the returns of the public services card. I will send that on to the Deputy. At the time, the total cost of the investment was about €98 million.

Mr. John McKeon

However, it was estimated to have generated benefits of €218 million. I can get the Deputy the up-to-date figures, but those were the figures at the time.

Perhaps Mr. McKeon would do that. Can he tell us what the cost to the Department was in defending the case against the Data Protection Commissioner?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not have that figure. Those costs are borne, as the Deputy knows, by the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and the Office of the Attorney General. The costs are not charged to my Vote. I can make inquiries.

Perhaps Mr. McKeon would do that and come back to us.

Mr. John McKeon

As the Deputy knows, the matter did not end up in court. A settlement was reached. There was no defence, as such, because a settlement was reached.

Perhaps Mr. McKeon could come back to us on that point.

Mr. John McKeon

I will do my best. I do not know if I will be able to do that, so I will not commit. I do not know if the Office of the Attorney General breaks down its costs in that way, but I will ask.

Has the Department implemented all of the resolutions that were agreed?

Mr. John McKeon

As part of the agreement, we agreed to make a change to our privacy statement. We agreed to delete data that had been collected as part of the process which was no longer required. We have done all of that.

That involved something in the region of 3.2 million records.

Mr. John McKeon

Approximately 3.5 million individuals have had public service cards. The relevant data would not have been collected in all cases. When we issue a public service card, we scan evidence of identity and evidence of address, which may include a bill with the letterhead of an electricity supplier and bill information or a bank account and banking information. Where that information was visible on our scanning, it was deemed unnecessary. The agreement would not have applied to all of the records but any of the records that included that information have been deleted.

Next week is the deadline for compliance, but the Department has already complied.

Mr. John McKeon

We completed the process by the end of May.

The Data Protection Commissioner is due to complete a report in respect of the biometric aspect.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

Has the Department had sight of the interim report at this stage?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think we have an interim report at this stage. We have certainly co-operated fully with the Data Protection Commissioner. We have listed and our offices to help the process and provided all the information requested. We are still at this stage waiting for the interim report.

Did the Data Protection Commission give the Department a reason for its investigation into the biometric capability of the card?

Mr. John McKeon

That is a part of the investigation. The Data Protection Commission started its first investigation in 2017 or 2018. That investigation contained a number of elements, one of which was to investigate into the legal basis for having the card which is the case that was settled-----

Or the lack of a legal basis.

Mr. John McKeon

It is now established as part of the settlement that there is a legal basis. That has been agreed

It is more limited.

Mr. John McKeon

The investigation was into the legal basis of the card. It also went into the biometric aspect and the processing of data for the purposes of identity verification. That was in all cases an own volition report or investigation, based on concerns the Data Protection Commission might have picked up from the media or from people contacting it. As I understand the situation, there was no specific complaint that led to the investigation but it was instead an own volition investigation.

We are due to see the commissioner's report fairly soon.

Mr. John McKeon

It has been going on a while. We hope to receive it soon but as the Deputy knows, the Data Protection Commission is very busy on other cases.

I have noticed that and wish we were not adding to the workload. I will move on to the issue of the classification of workers for PRSI purposes. There are 12 inspectors in the relevant unit in the Department. Is it fully staffed?

Mr. John McKeon

It is not. We hope to increase that complement to 20. That was our original plan.

Since when have 12 inspectors been in place?

Mr. John McKeon

That has been the case since September 2022.

What was the total before that?

Mr. John McKeon

The previous total was eight.

There were eight all year.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

How does that unit go about its investigations? Is it evidence-led? Is it targeted at particular industries? What is the rationale for how the unit deals with its work?

Mr. John McKeon

It is targeted. There was an initial report, the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, which was a long time ago. There was also a subsequent review of the code of practice on the term of employment status. The trade union movement would have been concerned about a number of sectors in particular and we have targeted those sectors. Media, journalism and construction were the sectors we have tended to target to date. There are one or two others about which I have concerns and we will be moving on to those sectors after our other investigations are complete.

The Comptroller and Auditor General stated: "While the misclassifcation rate in those targeted investigations was significant, the results provide no indication of the scale of the misclassification across the economy generally." How would Mr. McKeon expect to deal with that situation? Is the Department dealing with it in a systematic way to allow it oversight on the actual level of misclassification?

Mr. John McKeon

There are two strings to our inspection bow, for want of a better term. Our general inspectorate has just under 300 inspectors, as well as the 12 who are specifically focused on employment status investigations. Those other inspectors conduct approximately 6,600 employer investigations per year. They keep an eye out for any cases of false self-employment.

Rather than the general inspections, is there a system or strategy in place intended to get an overview of the misclassification?

Mr. John McKeon

It is difficult, as the Comptroller and Auditor General referenced in suggesting that we might do a random survey. One of the recommendations was that we undertake surveys similar to those we carry out under our normal controls. We do at least two control surveys per year in respect of our normal payments. There was a suggestion that we could do something similar in respect of the issue of employment status. I do not think that would work for a couple of reasons. The investigations into employment status are, of their nature, intrusive to the lives and work of people and the business of employers.

Can I just stop-----

Mr. John McKeon

Perhaps I could quickly finish this point. There are 15 broad sectors of employment. Random surveys would require 1,000 surveys in each sector, which would mean 15,000 surveys. We would be going to an employer, seeking employment records and interviewing HR managers. It would be very intrusive.

I will stop Mr. McKeon there. There is no clear definition of "employed" or "self-employed" in Irish or EU law. The UK, for example, has a system that allows people to go in. It is not perfect in that it gives 80% of people an outline of their status. We have not introduced such an approach where it would be possible to do so. Why would the Department not look at examples such as that?

Mr. John McKeon

We have looked at the UK system. It is basically a self-completed questionnaire on a website which provides a calculation of the probability that a respondent is self-employed or is an employee. We have taken a different approach. That is not to say we will not move to the UK approach. The approach we have taken is to work with the social partners in developing the code of practice, publishing it, identifying the five factors that have emerged through case law and publishing that. We have also undertaken a media and advertising campaign encouraging people to come to us. We provide a service that is not provided in the UK, that is, the scope service. That service is not available in the UK. We provide that service. It allows people to come to us and ask for a determination.

The Department can make a determination. Revenue can make a determination as to whether somebody is employed or self-employed. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, can also make such a determination. Is there a pecking order involved? What happens if there are two or three different definitions? What is the pecking order? Which is the superior decision-maker?

Mr. John McKeon

There is no pecking order, as such. We each examine the issue for different purposes. The WRC will look at it from an employment rights perspective. We look at it-----

I am aware of a particular case where one determination was made by the WRC and another was made by the Revenue. How does the Department look at that?

Mr. John McKeon

We would examine such a case on its own merits. That is what our scope section and our employment status investigations unit do.

We examine it on its merits. The three agencies all use the same five factors in determining the position. Some of the confusion arises because, as already stated, class S does not always note self-employed and class S can include things other than class S. Revenue also charges some people tax on the Schedule E basis for convenience purposes. It is not a determination that they are self-employed or that they should not pay. It is for convenience purposes that they charge people on Schedule E. It is not a determination; there are differences. The WRC is entirely concerned just with employment rights.

The difficulty arises if somebody finds themselves in opposition. It is indeterminate and can be an impediment to that individual. I will leave that aspect there, but I will come back to it with someone else in the future.

On the recovery of welfare payments after compensation, is there a plan? Obviously, that it is not itemised in settlements appears to be one of the reasons. If someone gets a lower settlement than the amount of welfare paid, it is very understandable that there is not likely to be a liability if that is the case. Is that how Mr. McKeon reads it? Is the Department talking to the Department of Justice about the gap in how those settlements are described in order that there is not a situation where the Department finds that it cannot determine the amount?

Mr. John McKeon

We share the Deputy's view, if I can put it that way. When this was originally introduced, we followed the UK model. That was in 2014. In the UK at that time, as I understand it, the recoverable benefit was limited to loss of earnings. Having spoken to a colleague in recent months on this, I understand that they have moved away from that and that it is now not just linked to the loss of earnings - the entire claim that is open. They do not separate it out. I would need to confirm that, but it is what a colleague has described to me.

So the legislation has-----

Mr. John McKeon

The legislation has been changed. From the conversation to which I refer, I understand that they also looked at could they tell the judges "You have to do this". The view was that judges do not like being told by the Oireachtas how to develop judgments. As a result, it was easier to just say that the amount awarded under every compensation claim is recoverable, rather than just the loss of earnings. This means that the compensator of the settlement, whether it is a judge in a court case or the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, must take account of the fact that a certain amount of money will be repayable to the State. We are considering whether to follow this route.

I may come back to the Department in respect of this matter by means of parliamentary questions.

With regard to the cyberattack on the HSE, a small element of the data would have related to the Department in context of doctors and certificates. Were people or the Department impacted by that?

Mr. John McKeon

The Department was impacted on a number of fronts. The General Register Office was impacted because a lot of notifications come through the HSE system. The General Register Office is part of the Department but the general registration service is run by the HSE with the registrars around the country. That led to some delays, which was unfortunate. With reporting at the time, people were relying on RIP.ie for the numbers of deaths and so on. We could not get the numbers of deaths because they were not coming through that process. That was one element. The other element related to certificates. Rather than terminating somebody's payment when a certificate did not come in, we extended it.

I am not really asking about that, because I fully understand that as we all dealt with it at the time. I am asking about the risk aspects. When we were speaking to the HSE, we found that there was no identifiable person who had responsibility for oversight in that area. If this something the Department differs in? When we addressed some elements of the issue with data security last year, it was in the context of people working remotely. Where there had to be a virtual private network, VPN, there was an additional energy cost because machines had to be kept on in the Department. Is Mr. McKeon satisfied that the Department is properly protected in the area of data security?

Mr. John McKeon

We are as protected as we can be. We had already set up our own cybersecurity unit and we have a cybersecurity structure unit headed at principal officer level, which has 15 people in it. I do not want to say much about it because I do not want private sector people robbing my staff. They are an excellent group of people. We were the first public service organisation to secure an ISO 27001 certification for data and cybersecurity. Around the same time as the cyberattack on the HSE, there was an attempt on our Department and we were successful in repelling it. We work very closely with the National Cyber Security Centre as well. We have good people invested in it. They are under demand and we have lost some of them but we keep doing our best.

It is an obvious one because of the number of people's records the Department holds, and because of the budget the Department has.

On the cybersecurity attack initiated on the HSE, Mr. McKeon said there was an attempted attack on the Department at the same time. Did that give rise to a similar level of damage as the attack on the HSE?

Mr. John McKeon

Our case was in February 2021. It was similar to but different from the HSE attack. It is the usual: you get a call at 3 a.m. on a Saturday to say that we are being attacked and your heart sinks into your stomach. As I said, we have a good team in place. We immediately isolated the equipment when we identified the attack and deployed high-grade virus detection and deletion software. The latter slowed down our network but was successful in protecting it. It is hard to say how close we came, but somebody tried and the measures we had in place worked.

As a result of that attack, has the Department increased spending in that in that area?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes. Some of the software we deployed in response to the attack has been left in place. We had access to it previously, but we had not deployed it because of its impact on network speed and response times. We have left it in place, however,.

With the learnings from the HSE, for example, in the context of data recovery and the vulnerability of the network across multiple sites, has the Department examined these issues?

Mr. John McKeon

The people working in the HSE have been collegial. The head of our services and the head of HSE work closely together under the shared learning. The HSE has learned a lot from it and we have implemented some of the controls that the HSE has subsequently implemented as well.

It is the far greater threat from Putin than a few politicians not being able to travel to Russia. The far greater level of threat is cybercrime.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not rest easy, and I do not think anyone does. They get more and more sophisticated. I would hate to give the committee the view or assure members that it will never happen. There but for the grace of God is the space we are in.

I will move back to the issue of classification for PRSI. Based on Mr. McKeon's answer, is he saying it is possible, for employment rights purposes, that a person can be deemed to have a contract of service but for Revenue purposes to have a contract for service? In other words, a person could be self-employed for one set of rights but could be employed for a different set of obligations. A person could be treated entirely separately by those two different classifications.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not know if I would go that far. Revenue would have to comment on that particular example. Each of the agencies has the five factors and each of us apply the five factors. One would expect that we would come to the same conclusions when applying the same factors. Revenue are not so much classifying people as self-employed or employed and deciding whether to put them on the Schedule E system or the Schedule B system. In some they put people onto Schedule E for convenience purposes and, for example, office holders-----

I appreciate that Mr. McKeon can only speak for the Department. In both cases, one is not actually determining if a person is employed or self-employed, one is actually determining what are the implications of the nature of the employment or non-employment with regard to the functions the Department carries out.

Mr. John McKeon

That is exactly it.

There is some confusion about the word "test". Case law was mentioned. A number of tests - mixed tests, control tests and so on - have been referenced by various members of our Judiciary and the UK's. Those tests are derivatives of the Department's five categories. However, they are different from test cases. In test cases, one scenario is analysed and then automatically applied to an entire category of workers. Can someone in any type of employment ask the Department of Social Protection for a review of his or her individual circumstances and only those circumstances will be considered for the purpose of that person's claim?

Mr. John McKeon

That is the position. We do not use test cases for the purpose of the wholesale classification of workers in a particular sector, namely, saying that all workers are one way because one worker is. We examine each case on an individual basis and on its own merits. However, we have never ruled out treating every worker in a firm the same if they and their employer say they are prepared to accept that, for example, Ms Leonard and Mr. Lawler accepting the same treatment as me once I am assessed. We have not ruled it out, but we have never done it.

The type of employment they have or the area in which they work is not a limiter. Rather, the circumstances of their individual employment decides their treatment.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

I apologise for putting the Comptroller and Auditor General on the back foot, but we referenced correspondence a number of weeks ago regarding a sample analysis of classifications. He might elaborate on it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We were discussing the work that my team had done on examining cases that were determined by the scope section. We looked at a sample of 25 cases and found that the process as described by the Secretary General was the process that was applied. No off-the-shelf determinations were made. There was actual consideration of the criteria in individual cases.

That was a very small sample.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. We did not find-----

There were no cases where categorisations or off-the-shelf determinations were used.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not in the sample we examined.

I will move on to the issue of debt write-offs. I have dealt with many such cases in my constituency office. For one reason or another, people can accrue payments that it turns out they were not entitled to but in which respect there was no element of fraud. For example, a person might have received a set of payments unawares. The Department has the ability to write off debts. Will Mr. McKeon explain the reasons? A large number of people have had debts of more than €10,000 or €12,000 written off. Will Mr. McKeon explain the process?

Mr. John McKeon

I might ask my colleague, Mr. Daly, to comment, but I will say a few words first. Generally, decisions on debt are taken by deciding officers, who act independently in the exercise of their functions. They make the decisions in two circumstances, the first of which is at the point an overpayment becomes known. In such a case, the deciding officer has to decide whether to apply the correct rate of payment from the current date. For example, if I know that Deputy McAuliffe was overpaid, I will adjust his payment rate. This approach is forward looking only and does not raise a debt in respect of the historical payments.

There may be debts that are not applied above the €27 million that has been detailed.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes. The deciding officer will take a view on the circumstances of the individual and the circumstances in which the overpayment arose, for example, Department error, fraud or client error. The deciding officer has statutory independence to make that decision.

There is a separate process for debts that are raised, which we consider on an historical basis. With the agreement and sanction of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, we review the stock of debt every couple of years. Generally, we examine the age of the debt, whether there has been much engagement with the clients-----

It is difficult for Mr. McKeon to comment on individual cases, but what is the profile of the 715 people who had a debt of greater than €10,000? Is it where the Department believes that someone has engaged fraudulently?

Mr. John McKeon

No, not all of them. In fact, the amount of debt that we assign to fraud is quite low. I have the figures with me somewhere and I will dig them up for the committee. We attribute most of the debt to customer error. Debts that are written off are cases where we believe there is no prospect of recovering the money. Generally, they are cases where the person is deceased or has left the State. We examine what the value of the debt is and whether we have been able to make contact with the individual. If we cannot make contact with him or her and there is no prospect of recovering the money, it should not be recorded-----

It is more a judgment of the person's ability to repay than the circumstances in which the debt arose.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes. Perhaps Mr. Daly, who runs this area, wishes to say a few words. He is much more familiar with it than I am.

Mr. Liam Daly

There are two aspects, the first of which is recovery. Attempts to recover have to take account of the person's ability to repay. We cannot put people under undue hardship. An overpayment is written off or partially written off in circumstances where there is no prospect of future recovery.

The net value of write-offs in 2021 was just under €33 million. This included a one-off sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for €27 million in respect of debts of just under €10,000 where the debts had been raised before 2014, recovery actions had been suspended and no repayments had been received since 1 January 2016. They were not active cases. We also have delegated sanction to write off cases involving small-value overpayments of under €100 where their recovery is not economic; debts associated with deceased cases where the estate recovery actions have ceased; where the remaining balance of the debt is economically irrecoverable, that is, where the debt has been more than 80% recovered and the outstanding balance is under a certain amount; debts where recovery would impose demonstrable financial and-or social hardship on the person; debts where a person has been judged bankrupt; and where debts are so large that full recovery is unlikely over the life expectancy of the debtor.

There is sometimes an attempt to demonise people in these circumstances by alluding to fraud, but the witnesses have clarified two matters. First, fraud accounts for a small amount of the debt, with most of the debt being due to routine issues or people claiming inadvertently. Second, the Department takes a compassionate approach to repayments, one that reflects people's ability to pay instead of making any moral or value judgment. I appreciate those clarifications.

Mr. John McKeon

In any year, we generally have approximately €100 million in overpayments. For a Department that spends €20 billion, that is a small percentage. Of those cases, only 7% to 9% relate to fraud. I made this point in my opening statement. Previously, there have been discussions about social welfare fraud and a demonisation of everyone, but the vast majority of the people we pay are pensioners, child benefit recipients, lone parents and people with disabilities. They are not defrauding the system.

My comments were for my colleagues rather than Mr. McKeon.

To clarify, it is 7% of-----

Mr. John McKeon

Of the cases where we had an overpayment.

How much money is that?

Mr. John McKeon

The overall amount is €100 million. The number of cases is 7%, but their value is approximately 17%, or approximately €17 million.

That is the figure I wanted to know.

Out of a total budget of-----

Mr. John McKeon

Approximately €20 billion.

It is under €20 million per year.

Mr. John McKeon

It varies, but it is in the order of €17 million to €20 million per year.

Sometimes, the impression can be given that the amount is explosive.

Mr. John McKeon

There are cases of egregious fraud and we prosecute those. They are the cases that get into the newspapers and drive the debate.

They make the headlines.

I wish to discuss the bogus self-employment scandal, which is the best way of describing it. It is fair to say that the Department has no idea of the extent of the loss to the State and the loss of benefits to individual workers.

The Department cannot quantify the extent of it. Is that fair to say?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think so. We cannot be precise-----

Okay. Of the 90-----

Mr. John McKeon

-----but we have an idea.

The Department cannot be precise so it has no idea about the extent of it.

Mr. John McKeon

That is not the same as not having any idea. We know it is not very large relative to the size of the population.

All right. The Department is going with that on the basis of the 90 individual investigations in 2021.

Mr. John McKeon

No.

How many investigations has the Department carried out this year to date?

Mr. John McKeon

So far, we have done about 6,600 employer investigations. In the Comptroller and Auditor General's report-----

Were they investigations into misclassification?

Mr. John McKeon

Into employers. We go into an employer and look at whether they have registered all their workers, are paying the right level of PRSI-----

Specifically, into misclassification though.

Mr. John McKeon

Generally, in those cases, and I can give the Deputy an example which is in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report-----

I am sorry. Just for clarity, has the Department carried out 6,000-odd individual investigations this year into misclassification of workers specifically?

Mr. John McKeon

All of those investigations would have included looking at the-----

So it was not specific to that-----

Mr. John McKeon

-----whether the worker was paying under the correct status.

-----but it would have been in the mix, if you like.

Mr. John McKeon

It would have been in the mix.

Yes, so it was not specific.

Mr. John McKeon

Just to point out because this is an important-----

Can Mr. McKeon give a number of how many were specific to misclassification this year?

Mr. John McKeon

So far, our employment investigation unit, which is the targeted element, has done about 550 employers.

Mr. John McKeon

That is the number of employers. There would be more individual workers then employers.

Does Mr. McKeon have the figure for that?

Mr. John McKeon

I can get it for the Deputy but I want to go back to the point-----

Will the Department give us that today?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, I will get that to her before the day is out. The issue with the-----

Do the officials have it there?

Mr. John McKeon

I will get it for her now. The issue-----

That is what I am looking for.

Mr. John McKeon

I know that.

Yes, but can I have that figure?

Mr. John McKeon

In 2021, we did 6,600 investigations and reviewed over 550 employers. Of those employers, we have done 380 in depth. As a consequence of that, we have identified 380 cases of workers where we think there might be an issue. Of those 380 in-depth workers, that is where we then get to about 53% having been found to be-----

That was in 2021.

Mr. John McKeon

-----correctly classified and 47% incorrectly classified.

Therefore, it is fair to say almost half.

Mr. John McKeon

They are very targeted. We have separately done-----

Was that in 2022 or 2021?

Mr. John McKeon

It was 2021.

All right. I was looking for the 2022 figures.

Mr. John McKeon

I will have to come back to the Deputy with those figures.

Does Mr. McKeon not have them to hand?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not have them to hand but we will come back to her.

Why does Mr. McKeon not have them to hand?

Mr. John McKeon

We are here to talk about 2021. We have not come-----

Yes, but Mr. McKeon spoke about it in his opening statement and it is an important issue. As I said, the Department does not really have any idea of the extent of the loss to the State.

Mr. John McKeon

I disagree with the Deputy's statement.

Mr. McKeon's figures state otherwise. He has said-----

Mr. John McKeon

I will just give an example because the Deputy is challenging what I have said.

I am looking for the figures.

Mr. John McKeon

We have done 25,000 investigations into the food sector and the meat processing sector. We came up with fewer than 1% of cases where there was a question of false self-employment. In the construction industry, which is one that is in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, we have reviewed over 6,000 workers and, again, fewer than 1% were involved in false self-employment. They are very definitive figures and are very indicative in two sectors the trade unions tell us are of most concern to them. The level of false self-employment is less than 1% based on those analyses. It is fair to say that is a strong indication-----

That is based on the Department's level of investigation and the fact the Department is understaffed.

Mr. John McKeon

Those investigations were specifically about false self-employment.

When Mr. McKeon is talking about targeting sectors, there is the courier sector, meat processing, journalism and lots of different areas. There seems to be a reluctance on the part of the Department to go in. I think Mr. McKeon said employers would find it very intrusive. Surely the nature of any investigation is to be intrusive? Given that we do not know the extent of the loss to the State, why is this not a priority?

Mr. John McKeon

I think it is a priority. There are two different things getting conflated here. One is the investigations in the cases where we believe there is a probability or higher incidence of false self-employment in a sector. I mentioned the two sectors we focused on, namely, the food processing sector and the media-journalism sector.

That was a limited investigation, in fairness.

Mr. John McKeon

No. They are cases where we specifically identified those sectors and specifically went in, picked out cases and had a look at them. On the general situation - the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to this - to attempt to estimate for the entire economy what the level of false self-employment is, I estimate we would have to do about 15,000 inspections per year across all sectors. To do all those investigations and to go into an employer and tell them we want to open up all their books and go through this level of intrusive investigation, whereby we have to interview the employer and the individual worker and look at their employment record and their conditions of employment before we make a determination, is a very labour-intensive process. To do that across 15,000 employers when the indications from the data - I mentioned the 25,000 investigations in the meat processing sector and the numbers we looked at in the journalism sector - and the evidence from those investigations are that this is not as widespread as people think would be-----

Yes, but Mr. McKeon will accept the perception is that those investigations have been somewhat limited and maybe a more thorough investigation would give a broader picture. Mr. McKeon said it would result in 15,000 investigations per year. We could look at that from another angle and say if that 15,000 turned up 15,000 misclassifications and multiply that by the loss to the State and the loss of entitlements to those workers, we would be talking about some scandal. Is that not the case?

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy is making a big assumption there.

Yes, but the fact is Mr. McKeon does not know until the Department carries out those investigations.

Mr. John McKeon

I disagree.

I am going to move on because-----

Mr. John McKeon

Just to say, because the Deputy referred to 15,000 employers, that the evidence is it would be fewer than 1% of them.

That is based on the Department's limited investigations thus far.

Mr. John McKeon

No, there were 6,000 cases done on the construction industry and 25,000 investigations. That is not limited. They are very-----

They are limited to particular sectors but there are lots of other sectors the Department has not touched yet.

Mr. John McKeon

They are the sectors the trade union movement has identified.

I want to move on. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, gives a figure of 11.6% of the population, or over 500,000 people, as living below the poverty line. The Department of Social Protection is responsible for the social safety net, if you like. Does Mr. McKeon think those figures are acceptable?

Mr. John McKeon

Listen, Deputy, the-----

If we could get just a "Yes" or "No" answer. It is a straightforward question. Does Mr. McKeon think those figures are acceptable?

Mr. John McKeon

Any extent - 1% or 0.5% - of people living in deprivation or poverty is not acceptable at one level.

It is unacceptable, okay.

Mr. John McKeon

The question is what is-----

I just want to ask-----

Mr. John McKeon

-----a realistic level, given the construct in which we operate in a liberal economy. If we compare Ireland with other countries, we actually look reasonably well. We are above average in Europe. The poverty-----

Mr. McKeon is content enough with it when he compares with other EU countries.

Mr. John McKeon

What I am saying is we always need to take those figures in context. The other thing to say about them is-----

As the Department responsible for the social safety net, does Mr. McKeon think it acceptable that in a small country like ours there are over 500,000 people living below the poverty line?

Mr. John McKeon

That is not something I as a civil servant would comment on but what I would say-----

Okay, if Mr. McKeon is not going to answer, that is all right.

Mr. John McKeon

-----is there has to be a context to it. I will just say that.

Yes. I move to the additional needs payment. What target does the Department work to when it comes to processing the applications?

Mr. John McKeon

"Additional need payment" is a term that coves a wide range of payments, so it depends on the circumstances in each case. If somebody has an urgent requirement-----

Does the Department have a target?

Mr. John McKeon

Deputy, let me answer.

It does not, okay.

Mr. John McKeon

For example, on the additional needs payment, somebody can come in and look for help with paying an ESB bill that is not due for six weeks. Somebody can come in and say they have no money to put food on the table tomorrow. The question-----

I have never come across an electricity bill that was not due for six weeks.

Mr. John McKeon

The question from the person who says they do not have food to put on the table tomorrow would be done that day.

Okay, so what percentage-----

Mr. John McKeon

With the person who comes in with the ESB bill, we would ask to come back, bring us the evidence, the information and-----

Mr. McKeon will accept time is of the essence here. What percentage of payments are being processed in, say, a four-week period?

Mr. John McKeon

About 70% are within four weeks. It is up to 75% now within four weeks.

Do the officials have a breakdown of the remainder? Would they take six weeks or ten weeks?

Mr. John McKeon

We can get the Deputy the distribution. This is off the top of my head, and we will confirm it, but I think 90% would certainly be done within six or eight weeks.

Within six or eight weeks.

Mr. John McKeon

And most of those cases would be ones where we are waiting for the client to come back to us with their ESB bill or bank statement. We are waiting for them rather than the other way around.

Mr. McKeon is saying the Department might be waiting six to eight weeks for someone to come back with the ESB bill they are looking to be paid.

Mr. John McKeon

Maybe I will ask Ms Leonard to comment on this.

Ms Teresa Leonard

We send reminders and follow up with people. We are doing a lot of that at present.

We are working hard to bring all our community welfare cases up to date. That requires a lot of intervention with customers on older cases so we are clearing------

Of those processed within four weeks, what percentage was successful?

Ms Teresa Leonard

I do not have a percentage but, to take the week gone by, we processed 4,463 cases, of which 2,853 were successful. I do not have the calculator to do a percentage.

Mr. John McKeon

Over the past year there has been a significant increase in the volume of additional needs payments compared to last year. They have gone back to the pre-Covid level, which was about 90,000 per year. It fell significantly during Covid but we are back up to the 90,000 per year level. We have noticed that when they were low, about 10% to 15% of cases were being rejected, while it is now between 30% and 40%. That has gone back to pre-Covid levels as well. We have a responsibility when somebody comes in and says they need help to check if it is an essential payment and if they have the means to pay it themselves.

Will the witnesses give an example of where they decline - in their view, legitimately - an application? Somebody who applies for an emergency or additional needs payment is in a precarious place, whether regarding food on the table, the heating bill, furniture for their house or whatever. Will the witnesses give an example of one they might decline or the reasons for which they might decline somebody?

Mr. John McKeon

There are two reasons: is it an essential expenditure and second, have they got income such that they could reasonably afford to pay it from their normal income. They are the two determining factors. I do not say this has happened, but if somebody came in and said they wanted money for gym membership, we would probably say no.

That goes without saying.

Mr. John McKeon

If somebody said they were earning €1,000 per week but had booked a big holiday, we would say they probably did not need that money.

I doubt you would be talking about those examples.

Mr. John McKeon

They are illustrations but we have community welfare officers who are higher executive officers in the Department and are very experienced. They know what they are doing.

I start, as others have, by thanking the staff. We seem to be rushing from crisis to crisis in this country and much of that has fallen on the witnesses' Department. I hope they will pass on our thanks to their staff.

I will focus on the compensation issue but have a couple of quick-fire questions before that. What is the waiting time for PPS numbers?

Mr. John McKeon

It is just under four weeks at the moment.

That is considerably longer than in previous years. I am talking pre-Covid and pre-crisis.

Mr. John McKeon

That is true. We have----

We were at one stage looking at ten days. I have been in contact with the Department before because it has a knock-on effect for women trying to access certain types of healthcare, particularly reproductive healthcare. To wait four weeks is quite serious for some people.

Mr. John McKeon

We have had over 200,000 PPSN applications this year, compared to about 130,000 in all of last year. Much of that is driven by the Ukraine experience. Those 65,000 people are 65,000 extra PPSNs. We have also had an increase from 2,000 to over 10,000 in international protection seekers, all of whom had to be issued PPSNs, so our PPSN processing has been under pressure. We have deployed extra staff and resources to it, including overtime. It was over six weeks and is back down to just under four weeks.

Does the Department have a target?

Mr. John McKeon

Ten days is where we want to be. We have to verify people's identity documentation. You do not just hand out a PPSN. We need to examine the identify documentation, confirm it, make sure they are who they say they are and so on. Where there are urgent cases, we deal with them. Employers can come to us, for example, if they have a worker who needs to get a PPSN for employment purposes. To any employer listening, as I understand it you can take somebody on and have them employed for 90 days before they need a PPSN.

Yes, and it is done retrospectively.

Mr. John McKeon

Many employers think they have to have the PPSN first. We will try to prioritise cases.

Okay, so employers can apply. What about an NGO? Can an NGO apply for an emergency case?

Mr. John McKeon

We will take representations.

So, for a healthcare issue or, for example, for children, the Department will take representations.

Ms Teresa Leonard

We use NGOs extensively in relation to international protection where there are children and adults involved. They help with prioritising people who need PPS numbers for whatever purpose. Irrespective of the purpose, we will accept that and work with them.

That is good to hear. Where there is an urgent request, what is the time?

Ms Teresa Leonard

As a Department, we take "urgent request" to mean we get it done immediately. I would expect-----

Is immediately three days or ten days?

Ms Teresa Leonard

For me it would be today. It depends on-----

Mr. John McKeon

It depends on whether the person has all the identity documentation and it stacks up. I have dealt with cases of people who do not have identity documentation who have come into the State. There is little we can do until they get their embassy or somebody to give them verification of identity. Where all the documentation is in order, we would do it that day.

Great, thank you very much. The witnesses mentioned pensions in their statement and some changes that will be in place by 2024.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, the Government's response to the Pension Commission recommendations.

This question comes, to some degree, from work on a different committee. There are huge demographic pressures in terms of pensions. In terms of pension planning and planning for what will happen in 2023 and 2024, for how many years out is a plan in place? Is it three years as with the rest of the Government in terms of other sectors, three to five years or five to ten years?

Mr. John McKeon

As officials, we look out 70 years on pensions.

The Department of Social Protection has a file somewhere with a pension plan for the next 70 years.

Mr. John McKeon

The actuarial review will look out to 2090.

Is that in the public sphere?

Mr. John McKeon

It is being finalised. It goes to Government and under legislation there is a six-month period for the Government to consider it before it is published.

It sits on someone's desk but it will be published.

Mr. John McKeon

It will not sit on the desk, to be fair. I might have been taught like that before I joined the Civil Service.

That was flippant of me. They are reading it but it will be published eventually.

Ms Teresa Leonard

Absolutely. It will be published. There is a commitment in the Government decision. There were arguments about whether the pension age should be increased and the Government has decided to try to resolve the issue through PRSI increases. The actuarial review we do every five years, in which we look forward another 50 to 70 years, will inform the pace at which those PRSI increases will be implemented.

I am not asking because of that political point about the pension age. It is more about demographic pressures on the budget, from a budgetary oversight point of view.

I will move back to the compensation issue. We were provided with a helpful graphic around how it works but I am trying to glean more information. The claimant contacts the compensator. The Department places responsibility for contacting it on the compensator or PIAB. Is there a reason the responsibility is not on the claimant?

Mr. John McKeon

The legislation sets out the way it is, so we do-----

Is there a practical reason for that?

Mr. John McKeon

The practical reason is the person paying out the money we are seeking to recover is the compensator. The compensator has to give us the money so they do not get to pass it on to the claimant. The claimant will not see it. The compensator gives us the money.

So it is not the case that the claimant pays it back. The Department directly accesses it from the compensator.

Mr. John McKeon

That is right.

That makes sense. I was wondering why it is not a self-declared situation like other revenues. What is the role of the Revenue in that process? Does it have any role?

Mr. John McKeon

Ms Leonard is the expert on recoverable benefits. I do not think it has any role.

Ms Teresa Leonard

Revenue has no role that I am aware in this. Revenue is told of all payments we make. Our social welfare payments are all made available to Revenue for Revenue purposes. I will have to check it out but, as far as I know, nothing specific applies in relation to Revenue. I will take note of it.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think there is a need for it to be involved. When we apprise Revenue every week of how much we pay them, Revenue knows their tax liability. When we recover that, I do not think that changes the tax liability they have already paid. We will check into it.

We have discussed compensators. How many bodies are we talking about?

Mr. John McKeon

It is all insurance companies in the State, basically.

Which is between ten and 12.

Ms Teresa Leonard

It is even those outside the State as well. There are some foreign companies involved in the Irish market as well, so it is quite a range, but it is a small number overall.

Is the State included in that, given it pays compensation?

Ms Teresa Leonard

Yes.

I want to follow up on Deputy Murphy's point about asking either the courts, PIAB or the compensators themselves to move to a position where they are more explicit about the payments and about whether they are classified as income forgone or just not classified at all. The witnesses mentioned the UK experience and it changing in 2014 to all compensation being up for recovery-----

Mr. John McKeon

I do not know the exact date it changed and I need to confirm that is the case. A colleague advised me on that and I want to check my sources, for want of a better term.

That is fine and Mr. McKeon might check that. My question was whether that resulted in a significant increase in compensation retrieved or moneys paid back. That is the material question.

Ms Teresa Leonard

If the UK has moved to that model the Secretary General just mentioned, that would necessitate higher compensation because it could be claimed back off every case we have on our books provided that compensation has been made. Some of the cases that are not recovered reflect cases where no compensation was made to the individual because he or she did not win the case. If we were to move to a situation where it was respective of loss of earnings, by default the amount recovered would have to be greater, mathematically speaking.

The witnesses talked about where that process has not worked according to the way it is set out. Will they expand on that a little? I am interested in particular in where there are legal interactions with compensators or PIAB and in what those legal costs are.

Ms Teresa Leonard

Simply put, if a loss of earnings is not specified in a compensation award, by default the Department cannot recover its payments that have been made to the individual while he or she has been pending the award. Simply put, that is what happens-----

I do not mean to cut across Ms Leonard, but is she saying that where the system does not work, it is because the compensator has not stated a loss of earnings and not because it has not reported?

Ms Teresa Leonard

There is an obligation on compensators to report to the Department or to check with the Department whether any of the people on behalf of whom they are making the claim or who made the claim to them have been claiming from the Department of Social Protection across a number of schemes we operate. On those schemes, they have to tell us they are-----

Ms Leonard is confident that is happening.

Ms Teresa Leonard

Yes, we are confident that is happening.

Mr. John McKeon

I think the issue the Deputy-----

Can I get an answer on legal costs?

Ms Teresa Leonard

There is a legal obligation on compensators to do this in legislation. It is defined that they must make this available to us. We record that and send out a notification telling them that when they settle the case, we want to be part of the compensation to recover our benefits from it, because "recovery of benefits" is the name of the scheme. With that in mind, when that point comes and they make a settlement, they are to notify us of the settlement, and if there is a loss of earnings in the settlement, we calculate how much benefit we have paid to the individual and give that amount to the compensation-----

I get all that, but is the Department accruing legal costs in this process?

Ms Teresa Leonard

No. I apologise but I had not got the Deputy's question.

Mr. John McKeon

On one point of clarification, I think part of the question the Deputy is raising relates to cases where the compensator does not engage with the Department. That is why we changed our process in 2020 to have ongoing communications because, up to then, we were kind of passively waiting whereby the compensator would notify us and it was its job to come back to us. We are now-----

Does the Department have a timeline for that review?

Mr. John McKeon

We have also gone back over the historical cases and we are contacting all of them proactively ourselves. We are still finding that some of them, even after the proactive engagement, are not communicating with us, so it is an open question. If this trend continues, should we look for legislative powers, such as penalties? That is something we will look at.

I thank Mr. McKeon and all his staff for all the work they have done in recent years, dealing with very difficult situations. My first question relates to the total number of PPS numbers issued this year to date. My understanding is that people coming in from abroad as refugees are given PPS numbers, as are children who are born and people who come in to work here.

Mr. John McKeon

Up to the end of October, it was 202,000.

Is there a breakdown of that?

Mr. John McKeon

Just over 60,000 were to Irish nationals. To clarify, the 202,000 were to non-Irish nationals.

The total is more than 250,000.

Mr. John McKeon

It is 260,000.

Is it possible to get a breakdown of the 202,000? Mr. McKeon may not be able to give it to me today.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, we have it and publish it in our annual statistics report. A total of 65,000 were from Ukraine and there were 212 countries in total.

If the Ukraine issue were taken out of it, would the number we are issuing be far higher than in previous years?

Mr. John McKeon

It is certainly higher than in the past two years, but part of that is due to the fact that during the Covid years, for want of a better term, the numbers would have fallen. We can get a timeline or trend for the Deputy before the end of the meeting.

One problem, which is not really in the remit of the Department, is arising with older people who worked here before 1980 and then went abroad to work. They were given PPS numbers before dates of birth began to be used as a mechanism for identifying people. If they went abroad and came back, their date of birth on the system might be, say, 1 January 1970. We are having problems when we apply for medical cards because the medical cards sector checks the PPS number with the Department, and if the correct date of birth that is submitted for the medical card does not correspond with social welfare, the process comes to a standstill. Has there been any communication with the medical card sector on that issue?

Mr. John McKeon

It is not one I have come across before, and if the Deputy has examples, we will certainly look at them. What we have on our system is the date on which the PPSN is allocated, and in many cases, for people who are born in the country, we allocate them pretty much immediately, at date of birth. Historically-----

These are people who historically had a PPS number, went abroad, came back and are now in Ireland, and the system was not amended when they came back to work in Ireland. I have come across it on a few occasions. I am dealing with one case where somebody has been in a nursing home for the past 18 months------

Mr. John McKeon

Will the Deputy send that case to me? We will follow it up.

I would appreciate that.

Ms Teresa Leonard

If somebody's date of birth on our systems is inaccurate in some way, we have a process for changing that to the correct date of birth.

The problem is not with the Department but with the medical cards department-----

Mr. John McKeon

It is the HSE.

I am not blaming the witnesses' Department at all. The failure is on the other side.

Turning to the level of support available in Ireland in respect of social welfare across the board, a recent study shows Ireland is 60% ahead of the UK in the level of support for people on social welfare schemes. Do we have a comparable with other countries, outside of the UK, on that issue?

Mr. John McKeon

We do. Generally speaking, our social welfare rates compare quite well with other countries. I do not have the data in front of me. They are difficult to compare. One problem with comparing rates of social welfare payments is that some countries deliver completely free services, such as free medical services at every part of life and completely free education. The level of welfare payments would reflect the other services available in that country. That is always a caveat when comparing what other services are available. Even in the UK, people with disabilities, who would be at a lower payments benchmark than in Ireland, have a personal independence payment and special housing payments. One has to take into account the whole to do a proper comparison. Generally speaking, we benchmark well.

I am raising this because, while I know Mr. McKeon said a person on social welfare here is 60% better than off than a person in the UK, there are glitches in the system too. Do we look at other systems to see where we can introduce improvements to provide support?

Mr. John McKeon

When we looked at pension reforms, we looked at exactly what happens in every other country. As the Deputy is aware, the Minister announced and we are progressing work on the pay-related benefit for people who become unemployed. We are looking at other countries and benchmarking a proposal, which we are developing for the Minister's consideration, against other countries. We are comparing the Irish system with the Dutch, German and French systems, and so on. We are taking lessons from all of that.

Does Mr. McKeon think we could make further improvements in the area of disabilities? Many people who have a disability are restricted in what they can work at. At the same time, many want to make a contribution and they find that, in certain cases, they are quite restricted in trying to make that contribution. Do we have an ongoing review of that in order that we can allow people to work for five or ten hours per week?

Mr. John McKeon

We are actively looking at that at the moment. Another commitment made by the Minister, which is in the roadmap for social inclusion, is to look at a new scheme for disability payments. Disability payments are currently somewhat binary in nature. A person is classified as either being able or unable to work. The Minister is looking at changing that binary classification and recognising different levels of disability, with different payments and work entitlements at each level of disability. That work is ongoing. We hope to be able to bring a proposal forward about it in the first quarter of next year.

I will move on to rent supplement. The figure for 2021 is €122 million. The estimated figure for this year seems to be reduced. Is there a particular reason for that?

Mr. John McKeon

It has been reducing on an ongoing basis for the last ten years. Many people who were previously rent supplement clients are now moving over to the household accommodation payment with local authorities. We pay rent supplement for short-term unemployed people. As the number of people on the live register falls, the number of short-term unemployed people falls and people who are long-term unemployed move on to the household accommodation payment.

There is a substantial drop from €122 million to the estimated outturn for this year of €74 million.

Mr. John McKeon

That reflects the fact that the labour market is improving and the number of people on the live register is falling. During the Covid period, people on the pandemic unemployment payment who had a rent requirement received rent supplement. As they go back to work, they do not require rent supplement, or if they are still unemployed, they move on to the housing accommodation payment.

Finally, I raise the issue of pensions. Mr. McKeon referred to over €450 million extra being paid out on pensions. I know the number of people aged over 66 is about 760,000. That will increase to over 1 million by 2030. For the next five years, even if the level of payment stayed static, what increase in expenditure do we expect per annum?

Mr. John McKeon

I will ask Mr. Lawler to deal with that.

Mr. Ciarán Lawler

Due to demographics alone, regardless of any rate increase in the budget, an additional 20,000 pensioners will receive payments each year at a cost of between €220 million and €250 million. That is purely due to demographics, with no rate increase.

Mr. John McKeon

The rate increase makes up the difference because it is not just paid to the new people but to everyone who is on the pension system.

There is a proposal about people delaying taking up their pension. Will that come in?

Mr. John McKeon

Our plan is to introduce that in 2024.

People can opt not to draw their pension until they are 70.

Mr. John McKeon

They can extend the period to any time between the ages of 66 and 70.

We will take a break for just over five minutes. There are potentially more speakers to get in. I ask people to come back for 11.10 a.m. We have other business to deal with after our meeting which we normally do in the afternoon, but we want to be in the Chamber when Dr. Ursula von der Leyen is there.

Sitting suspended at 11.06 a.m. and resumed at 11.13 a.m.

I welcome the witnesses. I acknowledge their extraordinary work in recent months and years, especially in the response to both Covid and the Ukrainian crisis. Their ongoing efforts and development are much appreciated.

I will start by focusing on non-compliant procurement. I refer to the €31 million allocated to 25 local employment services that were deemed non-compliant procurement. Of those, 24 were EmployAbility Services and there were also 40 job clubs services. Have the issues that gave rise to the cases of non-compliance in 2021 been rectified?

Mr. John McKeon

They have. We ran two procurements with respect to the local employment services and the job clubs, one at the end of 2021 and one earlier in 2022. We put those contracts on the proper procurement focus. We have not done the EmployAbility contracts yet, but the plan is to do those in 2023. They are community and voluntary organisations and they provide a valuable service. We have got to strike a balance between putting them on a proper procurement footing but doing it in a way that does not disrupt the service, as best as we can. We invested a lot of time and effort into the approach to the local employment services and job clubs. We will be looking to apply the learnings from that as we go into the EmployAbility space.

Could Mr. McKeon provide an update on what is entailed in the tendering process?

Mr. John McKeon

We did it over two phases. We started off looking at four areas of the country where there was not a local employment service. We ran a competition and, in three of the areas, they were won by community and voluntary groups, and in one area it was won by a commercial group. We got the feedback from that process, and we changed the tendering for the second round. There are issues about the value of reference contracts; the length of time people had to respond; the amount of money which was paid in upfront fees as opposed performance fees and so on. We took all that feedback on board and we changed the tendering process. As a consequence of that, we moved and we were able to award contracts. All of the contracts in the second phase went to community and voluntary groups. We went from 21 areas to 17, so there is some consolidation within the groups, and we went from having job clubs and local employment services to having an integrated service in each area. Overall, the feedback-----

The community and voluntary groups were not able to fund the service.

Mr. John McKeon

They have only just got going. So far, we have paid out about €12 million and referred about 4,000 clients to them. We are working with them. They always did a good job. Sometimes, they did not think we thought that because we were talking about procurement issues and they did not understand why we were going to procurement if we thought they were so good, but that was just a legal necessity. We are optimistic about the new contract, which is a multi-annual contract, and it gives them extra security. Previously, we renewed it every year.

How many years is it for?

Mr. John McKeon

Three years. It is a multi-annual contract for three years. We are paying a higher amount of money. Previously, the contracts were valued at €23 million a year. They are now about €37 million a year. We are putting more money into it for a longer duration and sending them more clients. We have changed the balance. JobPath was an issue discussed previously. Deputy Catherine Murphy in particular was concerned about it. We have changed the balance around. In fact, there are more people now with local employment services than with what we call the national employment services. The feedback I got so far is that it has been well received.

Does Mr. McKeon envisage that the Department has rectified the non-compliance with national procurement guidelines?

Mr. John McKeon

For the local employment services and the job club contracts, what we now call the Intreo partners employment services, yes we have. For the EmployAbility contracts, that is work for next year.

How advanced is the work to date?

Mr. John McKeon

We have just started to prepare the tender documentation, so I expect we will tender, probably towards the end of the first quarter or early in the second quarter next year. We do want to consult with the sector. It is easier for us in some ways to prepare a tender and just throw it out there, but we are concerned that there is proper consultation so that the sector has an opportunity to input into the design. We must be careful in doing that, as we cannot construct a tender for a particular outcome. We must do it in a way that it is open, but we certainly want to get the input from the providers into how that should be done.

I thank Mr. McKeon for his response. Following on from Deputy Colm Burke's question on the issuing of PPS numbers for 2022, Mr. McKeon referenced a figure of 260,000 to date. Could he give us a breakdown of the figure? Does he have the figure for 2019, pre-Covid? That would be very useful in terms of a comparison.

Mr. John McKeon

The actual figure is 260,000, with approximately 200,000 non-nationals and approximately 60,000 Irish nationals.

Irish nationals are predominantly people born in Ireland to whom a PPSN is issued based on registration at birth.

Is 260,000 a record number for the country?

Mr. John McKeon

The highest it had been over the past ten years was 180,000. That was for the entire year of 2017. The Ukrainian crisis is obviously-----

Absolutely. I am asking about the response of the Department. I read Mr. McKeon's opening statement regarding how resources and deployment planning had to be escalated and the Department's integration with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and other agencies. Will Mr. McKeon give us an understanding of the number of new staff to be deployed for one-stop shop receptions, such as Citywest and the other hubs in each of our ports in Rosslare, Cork and Dublin? I ask him to give us an estimation of the level of work to issue this number of PPSNs.

Mr. John McKeon

We predominantly use redeployment of our own staff. The estimate is that the equivalent of approximately 200 staff are full-time engaged. As part this, last year we committed to an in-depth review of the pandemic unemployment payment from a control perspective. In effect, what we have done is-----

What is the current level of employment in the Department dealing with this response? How many new hires has it made in 2022?

Mr. John McKeon

The estimate is that approximately 200 people in the Department are involved in this work. We have received sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to increase our staffing by approximately 280 for next year. This is partly in response to this work and the pressure it is putting on us. I hate to use the word "pressure" because it is valuable and important work. We are proud and pleased to do it. I am conscious of people making mischief with numbers such as this.

What is the estimated total expenditure on welfare income for the Ukrainian response?

Mr. John McKeon

It is approximately €176 million in the year to date.

This is related predominantly to the 62,000 PPSNs that have been issued.

Mr. John McKeon

That is right. The people-----

Outside of this, there is another 202,000 PPSNs that have been issued. Is there an estimate of the total expenditure related to welfare income?

Mr. John McKeon

We have not looked at them separately as a group. Most of the PPSNs have been issued for people coming to Ireland to work and for their immediate families, including children, spouses and partners. They are people coming to Ireland to work and their families. I suspect the number is quite low. We have not looked at the PPSNs separately to identify whether there is a social welfare spend associated with them.

I reiterate what has been said already about the Department's co-operation throughout Covid with the staff in my office and my constituency office. In general terms we have very good communication levels. There is one area where I am wondering whether the Department has lost staff or whether there is a breakdown in the level of staffing. This is pensions. It seems things have got a bit slower and it is taking longer to sort out issues regarding contributory pensions. Perhaps staff have been transferred to another area. There is probably a plausible explanation.

Mr. John McKeon

I will hand this one over to Ms Leonard who set up the pension system in the Department and ran it for a long number of years.

It is not a criticism. It is just an inquiry.

Mr. John McKeon

I will let the greatest living expert on pension operations in the Department answer this question.

Ms Teresa Leonard

I thank the Deputy. Pensions are still processed within the set processing times. They are just slightly higher because the numbers have increased quite considerably.

To clarify, I am not speaking about pensions that are straightforward. I am speaking about non-contributory pensions where there are queries and questions about the number of stamps. I know of one woman who has been waiting for two years. This is not the normal performance.

Ms Teresa Leonard

No, it is not. To be fair, it is not what we would expect either or what we-----

I will continue to engage.

Ms Teresa Leonard

If Deputy Murphy sends me the particular case, I will have it looked into.

That is okay but I have a couple of cases and they are all along the same lines.

Ms Teresa Leonard

I shall look into it. That is all I can say because it is not what we-----

The reason I bring it up is because I have a query. When it comes to non-contributory pensions my experience is that they are predominantly attributed to women.

Ms Teresa Leonard

They could be predominantly attributed to women.

Does Ms Leonard's office have statistics on the percentage of men and women?

Ms Teresa Leonard

Yes.

Would Ms Leonard mind forwarding them to the committee so we can see them? It is something that is affecting-----

Ms Teresa Leonard

The situation that would warrant more women getting non-contributory pension is because contributory pensioners can claim for a qualified adult but in many cases that qualified adult is better off applying for a non-contributory pension. On pensions, as with all other schemes, we look to see which is the best option for the individuals where they would be financially better off. We recommend to them to move towards a non-contributory pension if there is no other means in household bar the contributory pension to which they are both parties.

This brings me back to PRSI classifications. I have a number of queries in this regard where classifications have been clearly misapplied. Instead of being class S people are class A or whatever; I have it in my head that it is class A but I know it is not. People who should be classified as self-employed are not, perhaps for four years out of a period of 45 years. It is proving very difficult. If an accountant makes a mistake, is there any recourse for the person applying for the pension? I know there is the ordinary appeal but is there recourse where it is proved that an accountant has made a mistake and is long since gone or is no longer the accountant of the person?

Ms Teresa Leonard

We have recourse to scope for somebody like this. In fairness there is an internal process whereby we use the services of our investigators to assess the situation and speak to people who might have worked with the individual. There is a process that we have had since I was a child.

Will Ms Leonard send a note on this? It would be very helpful to me and to the committee. It is something I was not aware of.

Ms Teresa Leonard

I do have some information for the committee. Regarding the non-contributory State pension, female participation is 56,615 and male participation is 38,389.

It is almost double. It is a good 80%.

Ms Teresa Leonard

It is two thirds to one third.

That is grand. I assumed that. It is historical I suppose.

Ms Teresa Leonard

It is to ensure people get the best possible outcome.

I thank Ms Leonard.

Mr. John McKeon

If the Deputy knows of people who believe their insurance has been misclassified, they should apply to the scope section and they can get a review of the classification. As Ms Leonard said, inspectors can go out and speak to previous employers and workmates to clarify all of this.

This is important. One or two of the cases I am aware of will have to come to this scenario.

I have a question on domiciliary care allowance. This is very difficult to navigate for the simple reason that it is a subjective opinion of the Department as to whether a child is categorised as having a serious illness, apart from obvious illnesses. If an autism assessment is required, we have long waiting lists in most cases. Domiciliary care allowance is not being granted because the assessment has not been carried out. I have received a reply to a parliamentary question that states it is not a prerequisite but, to be fair, I find it to be a prerequisite. Much of the time the allowance is refused on the basis of an assessment of need not being carried out or the parent is waiting for the assessment of need. Is there is discretion in the Department?

Mr. John McKeon

With regard to processing times, at present the processing times for carer's allowance is that 90% are done within ten weeks and the average duration is under seven weeks.

This is specific to domiciliary care allowance.

Mr. John McKeon

I apologise.

Just so as Mr. McKeon understands what I am asking, I am speaking about an application being rejected on the basis of not having the necessary assessment of need carried out.

In some cases, people are waiting three to four years before an assessment is carried out. If a person gets a private assessment, which many people cannot afford anyway, it is often not recognised as a proper assessment. Does the Department have discretion in this regard? A reply to a parliamentary question I tabled indicated that it is not a prerequisite and it is not a reason to reject a domiciliary care allowance application.

Mr. John McKeon

It depends. Each case is examined on its own merits. We are required under legislation to ask the parent to submit evidence of the care needs of the child. That evidence can be based on the view of a general practitioner, consultant, psychologist or whoever. We cannot provide what is a significant payment without evidence.

I fully accept that. The members of this committee would be the people to ridicule the Department if it was granting the payment without evidence. However, many applications in respect of which there is no assessment of need but there is a level of medical explanation, for want of a better phrase, or doctor's certification that the child is on the spectrum are being returned. We can appeal such decisions, and we do, but 90% of them come back with an insistence on an assessment of need. In light of the fact that there is a three-year waiting list, it is not acceptable that people are being turned down. My experience and that of my office is that there is a genuine need. These applications are not being made by people who are flouting the system and coming into say they have a sick child. Ultimately, they would have to pay it back if they do not provide the requisite evidence.

Mr. John McKeon

I hear what the Deputy is saying. There are two issues. One is the extent to which there are delays in people getting access to-----

I am not concerned about the delays because we do move it on. That is where I am saying our engagement is quite good. I am not concerned about delay-----

Mr. John McKeon

No, I think the delay the Deputy is talking about is the delay in getting the health assessment.

Mr. John McKeon

Once the matter comes to us, we are quick enough, but getting the health assessment-----

Mr. McKeon is avoiding my question. I am asking about discretion and subjectiveness when it comes to the assessment by the Department.

Mr. John McKeon

If I may explain the process, we have a team of 33 medical assessors who are specialists in this type of work. They make the best assessment they can, based on the available information. If they do not have the information on which to make an assessment, they are not allowed to recommend the grant. There is a bit of a chicken and egg factor here.

I am asking about such decisions where the assessor is in receipt of a doctor's letter and literally everything except the assessment of need. That is where I am coming from. My appeal to Mr. McKeon is that these are people who are in dire need and already have inhibiting factors that do not allow them to work and the DCA is very important to them. They have those additional needs and are way above what the DCA would allow. I do not dispute that it is a generous payment. These people have very serious needs, however, and there is a need for a little more discretion and a little less subjectiveness. If all that is missing is the assessment of need, the allowance should be granted. The system is penalising these people because an assessment of need is not readily available. If more discretion is not forthcoming, we will have a series of people going to court in the context of the assessment of need because there is no defence for not providing it. It should be there. I will leave the matter with Mr. McKeon. We can take it up again.

Mr. John McKeon

We will consider what the Deputy is saying and take it back. So the committee is aware, domiciliary care allowance is in some ways our fastest growing scheme.

I understand that.

Mr. John McKeon

The numbers have more than doubled in a short number of years-----

Unfortunately, so has the level of autism, particularly-----

Mr. John McKeon

I make that point to highlight that we have not been slow in responding when claims come to us. We will consider the particular issue the Deputy is raising in respect of people not having the necessary information.

I understand that.

I will let the Deputy in for a second round. I have to bear in mind that there are potentially six or seven members yet to come in. Some of them may not show up but I have to work on the basis that they will. I will let the Deputy back in.

I have been following the exchange between Mr. McKeon and the Deputy. To clarify, it is not necessary for a person to have an assessment of need if there is substantial medical and psychological evidence.

Mr. John McKeon

The medical assessor will make that assessment as to whether the other information is sufficient. We will have a look at these cases and speak to the Chief Medical Officer about it to see what flexibility there might be.

I apologise for interjecting but, to be fair, the staff in my constituency offices are experienced enough that they almost know, based on previous grants of domiciliary care allowance, whether an application will pass. That is important too because we are only putting ourselves through hardship with appeals. It is doubling the work. I understand that an appeal may relate to the timeline in cases where the Department are getting it out there and then we appeal and it is granted. The process needs to be reviewed or otherwise considered, however.

Mr. John McKeon

As stated, we have worked closely with a group called DCA Warriors. We redesigned the form and did much other work to try to get information out there. As Ms Leonard stated, we deal with that group on an ongoing basis. We will engage with it on that issue.

I thank Mr. McKeon. That is helpful.

I join other members in commending the Department on all the work that was done during Covid-19. I find the Minister to be exceptionally helpful. She is certainly excelling in her role.

An issue that is coming up far more frequently now is that, with the rising cost of living and the pandemic, there was a lot of hardship for people who are over retirement age and would be classed as old age pensioners. What I have started to notice, as have other Deputies, I am sure, is that a significant proportion of the people who come into my office may have received bad financial advice. I class them as vulnerable in the sense that they were unaware of the significance and importance of making sure their stamps and contributions were in order so as to be entitled to receive a State pension. In other cases, they are people who have moved back to the country. I want to get an insight from the Department on this issue. How many people over the age of 66 are not in receipt of a State pension? If the witnesses do not have that information to hand, I ask them to revert to me with it. I am looking for a rough estimate. This partly relates to those who could be considered vulnerable as they may not have much savings, corresponding to what might be the case in Revenue. Do the witnesses have any indication in that regard? It is frightening for people in that position. In effect, such people have nowhere to turn if they do not have any savings. This issue is coming up repeatedly. It is a significant concern.

Mr. John McKeon

We will get back to the Deputy with the numbers. There are just over 500,000 people who are direct recipients of the State pension. In addition, there is another group who are in receipt of a widow's pension, which bring the number up to more than 600,000. There are also people who are beneficiaries but not recipients in their own right. We will get those numbers for the Deputy. I did some other work previously in respect of a basic income analysis. The number of people who were not in receipt of payments but who would qualify on a basic income basis was somewhere north of 300,000, across the entire range of payments. That would have included payments other than pensions as well. We will revert to the Deputy on this. It is a simple sum; one subtracts the number of people who are in receipt of a pension from the number aged over 66. There are approximately 620,000 or 630,000 people in receipt of pensions. We will do the analysis for the Deputy.

It is not the fault of any of the witnesses and I am not going to give out about it but, in terms of being proactive and trying to find a solution for the future, it would be a good idea for the Department to engage in a national advertising on television and in newspapers to encourage people to ensure their affairs are in order, when they are in their 50s or early 60s, preparing for the next phase of life, and into retirement. The number of people affected by this issue is staggering. In particular, it may affect home makers who may have been in casual employment in the 1950s and 1960s and, in some cases, received poor financial advice along the road. Many of them had not consulted a pension specialist but then found out they are not entitled to the State pension. It is tragic to encounter those circumstances.

Mr. John McKeon

The total number, including people in receipt who are beneficiaries, is approximately 780,000.

Okay. That is interesting.

Mr. John McKeon

Approximately 780,000 people are beneficiaries of a pension. There is also the things the Government is doing on auto-enrolment, as the Deputy is aware. Many people who do not have a State pension may have an occupational pension. The Government is trying to increase the number of people with an occupational pension from 35% of private sector employees to close to 90%.

That will help. The State pension reforms which are being implemented, particularly in respect of carers and granting carers full contributions where they have been long-duration carers, will mean more people will qualify for State pension in the future because there are reforms coming that will address the kinds of issues the Deputy is talking about.

Obviously, in 2021 we were in the midst of dealing with the pandemic. I understand that the Department's gross expenditure in that year stood at €17.8 billion. Is that correct?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

I ask Mr. McKeon to give us a breakdown of the €17.8 billion between the PUP and other assistance that was paid.

Mr. John McKeon

So far, we have spent just under €20 billion - €19.1 billion in total - across all the schemes.

Is that for 2021?

Mr. John McKeon

It is from 2020 up to when the schemes were withdrawn. So, it is 2020, 2021 and 2022. On the temporary wage subsidy scheme, the amount is just under €2.8 billion. On the employment wage subsidy scheme, the amount is €5.8 billion. On PUP, the amount is €7.86 billion. On Covid illness benefit, the amount is about €350 million.

How many major employers, which would be classified as larger than SMEs in Mr. McKeon's eyes, were in receipt of the EWSS? Does he have those figures to hand? Does he have a concern about companies that were in receipt of EWSS paying dividends and paying bonuses to directors?

Mr. John McKeon

The EWSS was operated by the Revenue Commissioners. It was funded by our Vote but it was operated by the Revenue Commissioners. We operate on the basis of an undertaking from the Revenue Commissioners that they have run the scheme properly. I do not have the level of insight that the Deputy requires. In terms of the general position around dividends, it does grab the headlines and so on that firms got the benefit of the wage subsidy scheme and then paid a dividend. There is some context around that. Some firms would be obliged to pay dividends based on a memorandum and articles of association. They might even need to borrow to pay for them. It is not necessarily the case of payment of dividends themselves.

The other thing that needs to be borne in mind is that the purpose of the wage subsidy scheme was to help to keep people on the employer payroll. To the extent that it helped to keep people on the employer payroll and we have seen the recovery in employment since, I think that was a very positive thing. If firms had retained profits that they could then use to remunerate shareholders or to reinvest in their business, that was also useful in keeping the business viable. So, I think it is not a simple black-and-white situation. One would nearly need to look at each business and its own-----

I would broadly agree.

Mr. John McKeon

The other concern of having a pension, somebody who is involved in some kind of-----

I need to stop because of time. I apologise.

Mr. John McKeon

A lot of dividends and even to keep pension funds remunerated-----

I must cut across Mr. McKeon because my time is limited.

Following up on that point, I agree with some of the points Mr. McKeon is making, not all of them. We need to have a discussion now so that if we have another major pandemic in two or three decades' time, we can be prepared. Obviously, the qualifying criteria for receipt of EWSS deserves questioning. Some major firms that remained profitable were in receipt of it. They could stand on their own feet without needing to engage in restructuring of their companies and having to let staff go.

When it comes to potential future schemes in the event of a global disaster or emergency like Covid-19, does Mr. McKeon think we should look at having a cut-off point or having some degree of separation between an industrial-scale payment for large industry versus supporting small businesses? Effectively, both were in receipt of EWSS in varying amounts. I would argue that bigger firms which are larger employers were bigger beneficiaries of this scheme than smaller employers, as they only needed to have a drop in operating revenue of 20% and effectively that was the cut-off. That does not necessarily mean they were unprofitable. I do not believe there was enough support for small businesses. I want to get Mr. McKeon's perspective on that.

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy is right. There should be learnings. All of these things will be looked at and are being looked at. There is a learnings-from-Covid group that the Taoiseach has separately referred to. All of these things will be taken into account. They need to be questioned and challenged. What the outcome of that questioning and challenge will be, I do not know.

I would like to know Mr. McKeon's view on that. I am not trying to trap him into commenting on Government policy, but I want to get his insight as to what he feels would have been better.

Mr. John McKeon

I think there are issues. The question that has to be asked is: if the subsidy was not paid, would the company have temporarily laid the staff off and would they have ended up on PUP anyway? Would it have been right for the State to step in, particularly from a constitutional perspective and property rights perspective, and oblige an employer to keep workers on the payroll in a situation where the Government itself was closing down the ability of that company to generate revenue? There are complex issues here. It is not straightforward. I agree that these learnings and these things have to be looked at.

The work placement experience programme was announced and began, as I understand it, in July 2020 and the planned implementation date was November 2020. Obviously, that was in the middle of the Covid pandemic. It provided for 10,000 work experience places over its lifetime, which I think was two years. It was for jobseekers and obviously they had to get employers to sponsor or host that. There was an estimate of €136 million over the two years. The final outturn was less than €1 million, or 0.6%, which is a very low rate of uptake of the scheme. The Estimate for the revised scheme for 2022 was down to €63 million.

We have received an advanced briefing from Mr. McKeon for which I thank him. The latest figures available to the end of September show an expenditure of €2 million. I have been looking at this over the past day or so. There seems to be a complete mismatch with 10,000 places provided for. How much roughly were the payments to employers planned to be? Was it based on a headage payment of a certain amount per worker? How is that calculated?

Mr. John McKeon

The work placement experience programme was one of the measures the Government agreed to as part of the jobs stimulus. I think it was in June or July 2020. It was in the context at that stage where more than 600,000 people were in receipt of PUP and there was a concern that post the Covid pandemic there might not be an employment recovery. It was in that context of very high levels of unemployment. In fact, the experience has been since the end of the Covid pandemic that the numbers on live register have been lower.

It is the opposite, yes.

Mr. John McKeon

So, the need for the scheme, I suppose, has dissipated. It is a demand-led scheme. It is available to employers and to unemployed people.

How much does an employer get?

Mr. John McKeon

The employer does not get anything. There is a payment to the worker. The payment to the worker is a top-up to their social welfare payment to make sure that they at least get the minimum wage. I think it is €103 a week at the moment. That is to ensure they get at least the minimum wage for the hours worked.

Of those who have been on the scheme and have done the six months, how many have been taken on permanently by the company?

Mr. John McKeon

At this point in time, our figures are that 42% have moved on to employment with the host or another employment. We cannot separate between the host and another employer, but they are now in employment.

We do not know how many are with the host employer, who would have had the person working for free for six months. I ask Mr. McKeon to come back to us with the percentage employed by the host employer over that period of time.

Mr. John McKeon

We will certainly do that. The advantage of these programmes is the work experience the person gets so that when they apply for a job, they have experience on their CV. I would be less concerned about whether it is with the host or another employer. The advantage is the work experience, but we will get that information.

It would also be useful to know how many are employed by the host because obviously if an employer takes them on in the workplace, there would be an expectation that the employer might see it as a way of recruiting. How many employers signed up for this scheme up to the end of last year?

Mr. John McKeon

So far, we have had 456 people on it. I do not have the information on the page in front of me but I will get that for the Chairman.

Is that 456 the number currently on the scheme or is that the total on it to date?

Mr. John McKeon

That is the total number that were approved to be on it. There are 122 people on it at the moment.

Is it really the case that given the amount of employment out there now and the challenges in filling positions, there is not really a need for this scheme at the moment?

Mr. John McKeon

The data would suggest that is the evidence. There has always been some form of work experience programme going back into the mid- to late 1990s. There was a work experience programme and then there were other programmes that followed on from that. I would be loath to take this particular arrow out of our quiver for want of a better term. It is not one we would be relying on but there might be some jobseekers who will benefit from it. Therefore, I think-----

It is approximately 460 people and the planned spend on it over two years was €136 million.

Mr. John McKeon

That is right.

There does seem to be-----

Mr. John McKeon

I accept what the Chairman is saying. There is not a very high demand for it but it is probably very important for the people who need it. Not every jobseeker is the same. Something we certainly know from employment services is that there is a great range and mix of abilities, competencies, qualifications and attitudes. If schemes like this work for 20 people or 100 people, they are still worthwhile doing for those 20 people even if the numbers are low.

That is fair enough; Mr McKeon has made that point.

Mr. John McKeon

It is not something-----

I accept that it is worthwhile even if it is a small number. My other question is around the fact that the final outturn was less than €1 million. The spend on it in 2021 was €600,000. Then, moving into 2022, as I understand it, the budget for the scheme was €63 million, which would seem extraordinary given the low take-up the previous year. Why was €63 million budgeted for 2022?

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy will recall that there was a spike in Covid-19 towards the end of 2021. It was in that context around the time of the budget that it was thought that maybe it would be a little bit risky to risk reducing the budget when we did not know what the outcome of the particular spike would be. Therefore, it was a provision. It was never intended that would necessarily be spent but it was a provision in case. If we had not provided for it and then needed it-----

Some people had the view that because many people were on PUP, a huge cohort of people might not have wanted to go rushing back to work. It actually turned out that people did want to get back.

Mr. John McKeon

I absolutely agree.

What is the unemployment rate at the moment?

Mr. John McKeon

It is just over 4%.

It is just over 4%. That goes to show.

Mr. John McKeon

To be fair, I would never have shared that thought. We have argued this point at this committee and other committees. We always quote the evidence from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. When people have an opportunity to work, they overwhelmingly take the opportunity to work. The main concern we had really was whether there would be an opportunity of work because we did not know how employers would recover. Employers have recovered much more strongly than was anticipated.

Okay. I want to ask Mr. McKeon about the Spanish recruitment drive. Last month, the Department of Social Protection in conjunction with the Irish Hotels Federation and the Restaurants Association of Ireland held a recruitment drive in Spain. As I understand it, that was to attract 1,200 workers to the hospitality sector. Was Mr. McKeon's and his staff's role out there to recruit people for those two sectors or to recruit staff for the Department? Was any element to do with recruiting staff to his Department?

Mr. John McKeon

No. The context of this is that the European Employment Services, EURES, operates across all European countries. It is one of the way in which the European Commission ensures that one of the four freedoms of Europe, one of which is the free movement of labour, is recognised across Europe. Each country is required to participate in EURES. Sometimes, other countries come to Ireland and host job fairs and sometimes we go abroad and host them. It is about letting people in other parts of Europe know there are employment opportunities in Ireland.

Can Mr. McKeon clarify that so I understand it? I know it is one of the four pillars of the Single Market arising from the access referendum.

Mr. John McKeon

It is the freedom of the movement of labour.

Okay. That is fine. I accept that. Obviously, there would be a language barrier for people from Spain. Nearly 12,000 people who came here from Ukraine are working, which is good news. The number is 11,000 and heading now for 12,000. That is good. In some cases, obviously, there will be a language barrier. Was an element of that recruitment drive for Mr. McKeon's Department?

Mr. John McKeon

No.

Okay. Mr. McKeon has clarified that. We still have many children. There are women who are handling a difficult situation whereby they have a number of children with them and they might be in a precarious situation regarding accommodation for now. A huge effort is being made to try to help them. Certainly, that is as it should be; they are fleeing war and an awful conflict. A substantial number of people from Ukraine have skills that could perhaps be utilised in some of those sectors. Would it not be better to target our efforts at trying to recruit more of those people into some of those sectors such as hospitality, restaurant work etc. instead of going to Spain to bring in another cohort? We have an awful housing crisis. It is the other big challenge we are facing. Would it not be more sensible for us to try to get some of those people into employment and fill those gaps?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think it is one or the other to be honest. We have made a big effort with Ukrainian refugees as well. We have engaged with more than 20,000 of them. We have had one-to-one engagements with more than 12,000 of them. As the Chairman said, many of those people are now in employment. The employment rate of Ukrainian people in Ireland is actually higher than what the OECD or International Labour Organization would report for other countries in the European Union. They expect that the employment rate for Ukrainian-----

I am sorry; to clarify, it is higher in terms of the refugee population in other countries.

Mr. John McKeon

The Ukrainian refugees, in particular. As I understand it, they forecast that it would take two years to get to an employment rate of 25%. We are already in excess of that. Many of the Ukrainian refugees are children. Out of 65,000 people, there are approximately 20,000 children. There are approximately 10,000 pensioners. Then, we are down to 30,000-ish. We can then look at how many of those are women who have two children with them and are living four to a room in a hotel. They are not really in a position to take up employment.

I understand that.

Mr. John McKeon

The employment rate for people from Ukraine who can actually work is quite high.

I accept that and it is good news. However, the point I am making is that we have a huge accommodation crisis and we are talking about bringing another cohort on top of that without trying to max out the number that can be employed from people fleeing the war in Ukraine and other immigrants in the country.

Mr. John McKeon

I absolutely agree.

When the Department's staff were in Spain, did they inform people of the difficulties with accommodation? There have been many complaints around this.

Mr. John McKeon

A number of staff went to Spain. One of the presentations they gave was all about the accommodation situation in Ireland. They were very honest and open about the difficulty with getting accommodation. They said that workers who are coming to Ireland are having to rely on hostels and may have to get hostel accommodation. They recommended to anyone who was thinking of coming that they should sort out their accommodation before they arrived rather than coming and then hoping to sort it out afterwards. There was full transparency with regard to accommodation.

Nevertheless, we are in a bit of a chicken and egg situation. The vacancy rates in some sectors are quite high. Employers are finding it difficult to get workers. There are workers available in other countries. The question is whether an employer leaves the job vacant. It is a difficult one. There is no perfect or right answer.

It would just seem a bit reckless in terms of bringing people in and encouraging them to come for relatively low-paid employment without having housing solutions for them. A bad situation is getting worse. Their expectations may not be met. It is not fair. If people are coming from Spain and taking up relatively low-paid jobs, it is unfair for them to arrive and then maybe have to share a room with multiple other people. That is the point I am making. The emphasis should perhaps be on trying to utilise the skills and other experience of people from Ukraine who are here already.

Mr. John McKeon

To reassure the Chairman, we are absolutely on top of that as well. It is not just people from Ukraine. We are working very hard with Irish people who are unemployed. That is why we have the local employment services and so on that we tendered for this year. Therefore, I do not think it is one or the other. Given the employment situation and the tightness in the labour market, there is an obligation on us to try to make sure there are enough workers available for employers. I fully accept what the Chairman said about the accommodation issue. In doing that, there is also an obligation on us to make sure the people who are making a decision are aware of the accommodation challenges in Ireland, and that is what we do.

Mr. John McKeon

We do not take the decision for them.

They are made aware of all of the information----

It is important that full information is provided because it is a crisis.

Mr. John McKeon

They have that full information.

We have people sleeping in cars.

Mr. John McKeon

There was certainly advice given that there are very difficult challenges in getting accommodation in Ireland and that workers were relying on hostel and other types of accommodation. People were certainly advised of that.

I am going to let members in now. We will start with five minutes per member. Deputy Catherine Murphy is first.

I will keep this short and ask Mr. McKeon to keep his replies short too.

On the public services card, is it the case that the Data Protection Commissioner, DPC, visited D'Olier Street in March of this year and looked at the biometric nature of the data and the Department then had to follow up with responses? I understand that was done a few months ago, in July or August. The Department had to make submissions to the DPC in response. The process is fairly far along at this point and the next stage is the publication of the report. Is that Mr. McKeon's understanding of the situation?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, that is my understanding of the situation.

Has there been any indication from the DPC of when the report will be ready? Are we likely to see it before Christmas?

Mr. John McKeon

I honestly do not know. The DPC will be aware that it is important that these issues are clarified and that if there are questions for us to answer, we have an opportunity to do so. As I said previously, I do not envy the DPC, which has a heavy workload-----

Neither do I. If the findings are adverse in relation to biometrics, is there a plan B with regard to the information contained on the public services card?

Mr. John McKeon

Just to clarify, there is no biometric information on the card. We do not capture biometric information. What we do is generate it from a photograph which is stored on the Department's systems-----

Why is the DPC conducting an investigation specifically around biometrics?

Mr. John McKeon

The DPC would have to answer that question but I think it wants to be satisfied that our processing-----

The DPC is not short of work. We can see that from the big fines it imposed this week. It is not short of work and is not looking for things to do. Why would it be doing this if it did not have a concern about biometrics?

Mr. John McKeon

The DPC would have to answer that question. I cannot answer it.

Yes, but Mr. McKeon knows the questions that the DPC has asked.

Mr. John McKeon

The DPC has looked at how we process, generate and store information, how secure it is, what staff have access to the information, and what it is used for. We have explained all of that to the DPC.

I will move on now to another issue which has become apparent to us through our constituency offices. Sometimes lots of similar cases are brought to us and we can see trends. That is currently the case with regard to domiciliary care allowance, DCA, payments. In the first instance, there seems to be a very high level of refusals. We have had people coming to our offices in tears and so on. We have to work with them to try to make sure they use the right wording in their applications. Often we are dealing with cases of children with very high levels of dependence who may be non-verbal or autistic. It is very difficult to see how they could be refused but I am seeing such cases being refused. We help the applicants with an appeal or a review. In many cases they are approved following a review but if not, they can submit an appeal. I ask Mr. McKeon to provide information on the profile of first-time rejections of domiciliary care allowance applications and those that are overturned on review. There is an administrative cost as well as a human cost in relation to this. I also ask him to provide information on the number of rejections that go to appeal and are overturned on appeal. I also ask him to provide follow-up information on refusals of claims that are related to illness or disability.

Mr. John McKeon

We will have to follow up afterwards with all of that detailed information. Even if I were to provide it now, I would use up the Deputy's five minutes. Deputy Verona Murphy asked similar questions earlier. What I would say as a general point is that we work very closely with Family Carers Ireland and with the DCA Warriors to review our application processes and make it as easy as possible for people to apply. Under legislation, however, we need evidence that persuades our medical assessors, who are qualified medical practitioners including doctors, psychologists-----

I have seen all of that information being included in an initial application and the application still being refused.

Mr. John McKeon

The people who are looking at that information are very highly qualified medical practitioners and they have to be persuaded that the evidence as set out-----

The same information was provided on the applications that were approved on review-----

Mr. John McKeon

We can have a look at specific cases but generally speaking, what we find with applications for disability payments, including domiciliary care allowance payments, is that those who are refused at the first stage include extra information at the second stage. There is something else I mentioned previously but because of work pressures, we did not get to it. At the moment people are paid their award from the date of their claim. We know it is the case that people submit claims early, even before they have obtained all of the medical evidence required because that establishes a date-----

I can only say-----

Mr. John McKeon

What we need to do is move away from that so that people can submit their claim later but have it backdated to the date of diagnosis. That would solve a lot of the problems.

I know of people with claims going way back. I regularly work with the DCA Warriors and deal with cases all of the time. I do not think my office is very different from other Deputies' offices and I see a very high level of refusal on first application.

Mr. John McKeon

I will come back to the Deputy with the data but what I would say is that she does not see the cases that are approved on first application. All of the cases she sees are difficult ones and it is dangerous to extrapolate that those specific experiences are indicative of the general experience. It would not be the general experience but we will come back to the committee with the data. Overall, 85% of claims, not specifically domiciliary care allowance claims, are awarded at the first stage.

Is Mr. McKeon saying that 85% of domiciliary care allowance claims are awarded-----

Mr. John McKeon

No, I am talking about overall claims. I will come back to the Deputy with the information on domiciliary care allowance-----

Will Mr. McKeon drill down into that data for me?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, and 1% of cases that are refused are appealed and then half of those are awarded subsequently. That is the overall picture but I will come back to the Deputy with specific information on domiciliary care allowance cases. I would ask her to bear in mind that she is dealing with the cases that are not approved and she is not hearing about the applications that are accepted. It would be wrong to think that those cases are reflective of the general experience.

I am quite shocked by the extent of the information that is given.

We would often help first-time applicants and would know from experience that their applications should pass. Our constituency offices are seeing an increase in these cases. One of our primary jobs is filling in forms for this allowance, over and above housing applications, or at least almost equal to same. I am shocked at the level of rejections and the number of cases that we have to appeal. There is an administrative cost-----

Mr. John McKeon

I would make one last point, if I may. We have a process and we do trust our medical assessors. There has to be a process of assessment and a process of -----

I understand that but Mr. McKeon just said that 50% are granted on appeal-----

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, and our experience in that regard is that generally additional medical information is provided on appeal. The point I am making is that people who submit a claim are told by medical professionals to do so as soon as possible because the payment will be awarded from the date of the claim. We need to have a look at that and see if we can-----

I ask Mr. McKeon to provide the relevant figures.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, we will come back with the data.

We want to know how many applications get through on first application-----

Mr. John McKeon

We will come back with that information.

I just want to comment on the fact that the level of engagement required is very high for people who are already in very difficult situations. These are people who constantly say that they are time poor. They do not have time to fight for this. They need it badly-----

I have had a similar experience-----

-----but they do not have the time or the energy. They are dealing with extremely difficult situations-----

Mr. John McKeon

I accept what the Deputies are saying. I actually have some information on the refusal rate here. So far this year, 27% of cases were refused on first application and 73% were awarded on first application.

How many of the 27% were granted on appeal?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not know how many of the 27% appealed the decision but generally, of the ones that appeal, about 40% get through on appeal.

Does that include reviews?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, reviews are included in that.

As I said in response to Deputy Catherine Murphy, the Department is not trying to frustrate anyone's entitlement. We had to get a balance between applying proper controls and granting entitlement, and that is always the balance. I made the point that the DCA is the fastest growing payment. It has more than doubled in a short few years. We are not frustrating anybody's entitlement. We are doing our best and-----

Equally, I would not endorse someone who walked into my office if I believed that he or she was not entitled to the payment. I would not rush to help such a person over and above the people I really do believe are in need.

Mr. John McKeon

I fully accept that. I know what the Deputy does in her clinics, and I fully accept the sincerity of what she is saying. I am not challenging it; I am just giving a slightly different view. We will certainly look at the case she is raising.

To clarify for members, applicants have the option of seeking a review, which keeps it in play without it going to D'Olier Street, and that is helpful.

I want to focus on the issue of community employment, CE. The principal purpose of CE is to provide training opportunities for job activation to ensure people come off the live register and are able to secure their way back into employment. Is that a fair assessment of the CE scheme?

Mr. John McKeon

It is twofold; it is about both activation and local service delivery. It is about providing occupational activity for people in providing local services they might not otherwise get because they are very distant from the labour market-----

Yes, but the Department’s scope within that is focused on the job activation side-----

Mr. John McKeon

It is both-----

They often do not receive funding from any other Department towards the very positive work they do. The funding comes from the Department of Social Protection and it is a job activation measure.

Mr. John McKeon

It is both. As I said, it is both community and job activation. The Department did a review of CE a number of years ago which clearly made that point.

I accept that that is what it is on the ground. From a funding perspective, however, the people on the scheme are employed at a rate slightly above the social welfare rate to encourage them to participate. The CE supervisor and the assistant supervisor are paid to manage those employees. There is no additional funding in respect of all the positive stuff they do.

Mr. John McKeon

They are all welfare recipients. We do provide payments in terms of training grants and so on-----

Again, that is training for people on the scheme.

Mr. John McKeon

That is right, and for materials and so on.

One of the flaws of the scheme is that all the funding relates to the employment or activation element and that there is not significant funding for those other measures Mr. McKeon just mentioned, which make a positive community contribution. With that in mind, people who are in charge of managing those schemes, of budgeting and so on are CE supervisors. They have not received an increase in pay since 2008. Does Mr. McKeon accept that?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

Is that acceptable?

Mr. John McKeon

There is a claim in and we are talking to our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about that. For context, prior to 2008, their pay moved with the public sector generally, even though they are not public sector employees. In 2008, at the time of the financial emergency measures in the public interest cuts, they made an argument that they should not be treated like others in the public sector and that their pay should not have been cut. When public servants had their pay cut, CE people did not. That separation happened.

Yes, but even if we take the case of a telephonist, a clerical officer or others on 2008 HSE-consolidated grades, for example, the pay of those public servants is now between 3% and 5% above where it was in 2008.

Mr. John McKeon

I agree-----

The minimum wage, for example, has increased by 30% since 2008.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not disagree with what the Deputy is saying. The point I was making is that, unfortunately, the reach that was created in 2008 has created a situation now where they need to make a separate claim to their employer.

Is there a reason the national wage agreement was not applied?

Mr. John McKeon

Because they chose to step out of it in 2008, so that is now the-----

Am I correct in saying that the Department could have included them in that agreement?

Mr. John McKeon

No. At that point, they made the argument clearly that they are not public servants but are, rather, private employees of-----

We know why they are not public servants,. It is because they do not have the pension entitlement that many public servants have. Is that fair?

Mr. John McKeon

They do not, but that is a different issue which we have addressed separately. I do not want to be difficult , but the main reason is they are now employed by, and treated as employees of, private limited companies. The public sector pay deal does not encompass those-----

Does Mr. McKeon accept that they are employed by private limited companies?

Mr. John McKeon

They are, and they need to make a pay claim to those companies-----

Is it not the case that those private limited companies were established specifically to absolve the Department of its responsibility to have them as employees?

Mr. John McKeon

These companies were set up a long time ago. I cannot talk about the genesis of them, but my understanding is they were partnership companies-----

They absolved the Department of any responsibility towards these people.

Mr. John McKeon

No. We will respond to a request from the companies for funding if they need funding to pay their staff. We are talking-----

The difficulty is that limited companies often have two, three or four volunteers on their boards. They have no mechanism to fund schemes other than by means of the provision of the CE scheme. If they paid their employees more, the Department would step in and stop them trading recklessly. The Department effectively acts as a shadow director for many CE schemes.

Mr. John McKeon

No, that is not the case. To be clear, it is a matter for the CE schemes to make a case for funding to the Department. If that funding is required to pay-----

The governance is so poor in many CE schemes that the CE supervisor is the one who largely runs the scheme, with the assistance of people who are willing to put their names to a board.

Mr. John McKeon

That is the difficulty with the governance of CE schemes that the Deputy spoke about. It is a problem. We would have concerns in some cases and we have had, for example, cases where we have had to get the Garda involved in issues on CE schemes. There is a context to this. The current situation is that there is a pay claim, as I understand it, in being. It is a matter for the CE sponsors to come to the Department and look for funding for that pay claim, and if that approach is made, we will consider it. We have also had discussions with-----

The problem is that the very people who are responsible for seeking that are the people who will receive it. The people who received the notification about the employer obligation and so on is the CE supervisor-----

Mr. John McKeon

It is the board, to be clear.

But boards in large numbers of CE schemes comprise a small number of people, and the Department knows this governance issue is there.

Mr. John McKeon

I am sorry but there is nothing I can do about the law. The law is that they are the employers.

The Department used the law to absolve itself of responsibility.

Mr. John McKeon

I disagree with that. I am obliged to apply the governance standards of the civil and public service. As Accounting Officer, I am obliged to follow those standards. If I did not apply them-----

I accept that, but for many schemes, such as meals on wheels, which is a very simple one, the Department should not provide the funding. It should be provided by the HSE. It is a resource for people that we often employ to keep them out of hospital. Why are we directly funding meals on wheels services through a job activation measure? Why is it not provided by the HSE? Why is Mr. McKeon not going to the Department and asking why it is not being funded by the HSE?

That is another matter.

It is to do with funding from this Department.

Mr. John McKeon

I will answer that quickly. The idea, as we said at the beginning, of the CE schemes is to give people who are very distant from the labour market occupational activity serving their local community. Meals on wheels is a service that serves the local community. It could be argued both ways. It could be argued it is a good thing for a CE scheme to be involved in. There are a lot of things CE-----

Catering staff in hospitals are not on CE schemes.

Mr. John McKeon

I accept that, but there are a lot of things CE schemes do that other service providers, in both the private and public sectors, do. If they were exclusively set up on a formal employment basis, there would be questions as to whether the people who are on CE schemes would satisfy the recruitment requirements because there are certain standards. What we are trying to do is give an opportunity to people who are very distant from the labour market to get occupational activity that, if they applied for a job in the HSE, they probably would not get.

That is accepted. Will Mr. McKeon come to the specific question about CE supervisors? I had intended to raise this. There is an argument over who should fund the scheme and I would agree with him on that in the context of meals and wheels and so on. Typically, they could be graveyard committees or sports clubs that have staff in various places. The estimation is that it is reflected throughout the country fairly well in terms of boards and so on. The context is that there is a pay claim coming, and the ask from this meeting is that the Department will need to consider this seriously. If people have not had a pay increase for 14 years, they are probably the only category of workers that has not had a pay increase over that 14-year period. It is not sustainable. There is now a greater volume of work, including more administrative work and paperwork. They are expected to fulfil a number of functions. It might not, in theory, be public services but, in practice, they are in contact with the Department's officials every day of the week. They have a huge responsibility to carry. They are a group who have been left out. There has been an ask from the Deputy, and I emphasise that the matter will come before the Department. As a result, it needs serious consideration.

I understand the legal position regarding whether it comes through the boards. I was on one of the boards, and, at one time, I was on a CE scheme. I have been on both sides of this. I understand how it works but CE supervisors cannot be ignored. We cannot let this drift on for another year without fixing it. It has to be fixed.

Mr. John McKeon

I hear the Deputies loud and clear. It is well known that our Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, are both very keenly interested in the CE space. That is no secret. They set up an operational forum with CE sponsors. There is a representative group of CE sponsors that the Minister and Minister of State meet three to four times a year. Many changes have been made to eligibility and duration on CE, specifically arising out of that operational forum and the interest of the Minister and Minister of State in it. The Deputies can take it that there is a strong interest in this issue. It is about the mechanism through which it is done that, I am afraid, is a legal mechanism. We fund the companies. They pay the wages.

Let us try to fix it and accelerate the solution to it.

There are different sides to the CE schemes. I appreciate that too. They do not all have those governance issue.

In our area, particularly in my constituency, we have wonderful groups that provide meals on wheels. I note that there are certainly many who cannot do without them. I do not want anyone to think the position is we do not want to fund the CE schemes. It is maybe that the wrong Department is funding them.

We have issues with filling positions on CE schemes. I am not sure how that works because there are always people but, seemingly, they do not want the positions. That is something which is increasing. We have more positions to fill. I understand that when it comes to schools and so on, it is a different scenario because we are looking at people having to be vetted. In the context of what we look for in CE schemes, such as cutting grass in public areas and so on, there just does not seem to be anyone, although there are people on the schemes. That is something that might be looked at as well.

Mr. John McKeon

We acknowledge that. We are having difficulties ourselves.

The supervisors have quite a difficult job. I have endorsed their pay claims. It is ridiculous that any sector would go for 14 years without a pay increase but I know that is not up to Mr. McKeon.

I will go back to the recovery of benefits and assistance. As outlined in Chapter 11, paragraph 11.15, of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, I do not understand why in 25% of cases the potential compensator has not engaged and the Department is seeking legal advice. When did it seek legal advice? Has it got it? What is happening?

Mr. John McKeon

This relates to the historical cases we started to recover. The number is now down to under 20%. Since that time, some of the compensators have started to engage and we have reached out in a proactive manner. As I said, we were quite passive. The legal obligation is on compensators to engage with us but we have started to engage with them. We are pushing them as hard as we can to engage with us. The legal issue we are looking at, as I mentioned, is whether there is scope, on a legislative basis, to potentially introduce penalties for those who do not engage.

There is very much scope for that. What kind of money is the Exchequer at the loss of here?

Mr. John McKeon

We are probably not hugely at the loss of a lot of money but-----

If we go to the report for the period between 2014 and 2021, €532 million is outstanding as potentially recoverable. Some €160 million has been received, which is less than a third. The Department is at approximately €300 million, which is a vast amount of money, particularly in view of the Department we are dealing with. I know it has huge budgets but that is a lot of money. Is there any circumstance whereby the compensator may actually be taking the money from the claimant and not passing it back to the Department?

Mr. John McKeon

No. The issue here is that-----

They are not engaging.

Mr. John McKeon

They are not engaging. The issue is that the compensator has nothing to gain by not giving us the money because the compensator is obliged by a settlement or court order, for example, to pay Verona Murphy €10,000. The compensator is at the loss of that €10,000 and is giving, say, €3,000 to us. It does not increase the compensator's liability so-----

However, the Department is depending on compensators' goodwill to engage because if there is no penalty, it is only taking up their time.

Mr. John McKeon

They have a legal obligation to do it and we are looking at a penalty but-----

When Mr. McKeon says compensators have a legal obligation, if they do not do it, what happens?

Mr. John McKeon

They are outside the law. Under the Social Welfare Act, if people do not engage, we can go to civil-----

Okay. I will make it simple.

Mr. John McKeon

In a situation where somebody persistently refuses, we could invoke social welfare law-----

For a value to the Exchequer of €350 million-----

Mr. John McKeon

-----but we are then into criminal proceedings.

-----has the Department invoked?

Mr. John McKeon

To be clear, that €300-odd million is the potentially realisable amount. Actually-----

Let us be clear. I know it is the potential amount. We have very detailed figures. Mr. McKeon said the Department is now at 20%. He must have a value for that 20% he can give us. Maybe not right now, but it is mentioned in the report. I assume it will be very easy to establish. The compensators have an obligation but I believe Mr. McKeon has an obligation as the Secretary General to follow that money on behalf of the Exchequer.

Mr. John McKeon

We do.

Where Mr. McKeon believes there is no really enforceable legislation that puts compensators to the pin of their collars to comply with their legal obligations, it is up to him to provide a note to us that we need to do something about it as legislators. I do not see that in the report.

Mr. John McKeon

That is what I said today. To give the Deputy some comfort-----

Where did the Department get the legal advice? Was it from the Attorney General?

Mr. John McKeon

No. To go back, and I will come to that question-----

That is a question.

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy spoke about the potentially realisable amount. To give her comfort, the potentially realisable amount in respect of 2014 was originally estimated at €98 million.

What is it today?

Mr. John McKeon

The amount we recovered is €50 million. The amount that is not recoverable because there was no settlement that specifically identified loss of earnings is €39 million. Out of the €98 million, there is €8 million in open cases-----

That was in 2014.

Mr. John McKeon

-----and we are continuing to pursue those. What happens is these cases go on for five years and, sometimes, six years.

I am well used to the courts system.

Mr. John McKeon

The amount of money that-----

The awards have grown-----

Mr. John McKeon

We will continue to follow up.

-----exponentially since 2014.

Mr. John McKeon

We have noticed they have started to come down in the past year or two. We will pursue the money. It takes time to resolve. The Deputy talked about €300 million. Our estimate is that, roughly speaking, probably about half of that will not be recoverable because-----

Even if it is only €1 million, the point is Mr. McKeon is responsible for recovering it.

Mr. John McKeon

I accept that.

I am asking what Mr. McKeon has provided to the Government that he wants to see brought in as policy and legislation. Where did he get his legal advice? What is from the Attorney General?

Mr. John McKeon

No. We have internal legal advisers. I said two things earlier. We are having a look at whether it is appropriate to look for recovery from the entire claim rather than just from that bit. The second thing we are doing is looking to see whether there are penalty provisions for non-engagement. That is really about improving the process. I do not think it will-----

I know. I agree.

Mr. John McKeon

-----improve the returns.

I am not getting a sense of urgency about this. I consider this matter to be urgent. These are insurance companies that have gouged virtually every citizen in the country for years. We are letting them off here by not actually-----

Mr. John McKeon

I-----

Mr. John McKeon

I disagree. We have recovered €188 million out of the roughly €300 million to €400 million that we could have gone for-----

It is €532 million that is potentially recoverable and €160 million recovered. They are varying.

Mr. John McKeon

The issue is we have to wait for cases to be settled before we can recover. If we go back to 2014, where the cases have been settled, we have actually recovered-----

Did the Department only start doing that in 2014?

Mr. John McKeon

-----well over 90%. It only started in 2014.

All right. Will we see progress this time next year? I will ask the same question then.

Mr. John McKeon

We will continue to see progress. The Deputy will see a declining part and that the amount recovered-----

I know but I will be looking for the policy changes that see progress being made. I will look for that next year.

Mr. John McKeon

I mentioned two policy changes. The most important is probably the first, which is about the portion of the award that is available for recovery. That is the most important one.

And how we get it.

Are the cases actively pursued as soon as they are settled?

Mr. John McKeon

We started actively pursuing as opposed to waiting in 2021. I know the numbers are big but we are on top of it.

I have a couple of questions. On the categorisation of workers, out of the 90 investigated in 2021, there was a 44% level of miscalculation. I understand that those investigations are not blanket but are targeted. The point is that where the Department conducts targeted investigations, the level of miscalculation is quite high.

Presumably, they are classified as self-employed, where it should actually be as employees. I do not want to spend too much time on it. At previous meetings, Mr. McKeon told me that test cases have not been used to categorise for self-employment or employees in different sectors to differentiate. Is that still the case? Does he stand over that?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, it is still the case.

Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.

Briefly, I want to raise the issue of community welfare officers-----

Mr. John McKeon

Just on the targeted cases, there is a high rate in the targeted cases, but I would emphasise that they are targeted. There is one sector, in particular, that the committee is aware of and has written to me about. We have to go through the investigation and we will do so. However, the particular employers already acknowledged that many of them are self-employed through a separate process. Therefore, one would expect the rate to be quite high in those cases.

I wish to just mention briefly in that context that I read the Comptroller and Attorney General’s chapter and I read Mr. McKeon’s response. On targeted versus random, I see targeted as having a benefit, but I also see random as having some benefit. I would like to see the Department perhaps not ruling it out completely.

Mr. John McKeon

We have not ruled it out completely. We heard what was said here today. We will have a look at it. My genuine concern is these cases, which the Chair can see from the numbers that are done, take quite a lot of time. There are two sides - the employer and the employee. Very often they bring lawyers into the room with them and so on.

I understand.

Mr. John McKeon

Therefore, doing many of these is-----

In relation to the special investigation unit, on the categorisation of workers, whether it is bogus self-employment, self-employed in reality or employees, Mr. McKeon mentioned he has 12 staff but he needs 20. Is that correct?

Mr. John McKeon

Our target is to get it at 20.

When does McKeon hope to have it up to 20?

Mr. John McKeon

By the end of next year.

By the end of next year. Okay.

Mr. John McKeon

There is a training effort involved. This is not-----

I understand that. However, it is obviously important that is done because it has brought benefits already.

On the supplementary welfare allowance, generally that is taken to mean payments, such as special needs payments, we sent out before the cost of living issues kicked in. There are then urgent need payments and the additional needs payments. There is sometimes what is termed an interim payment, where somebody is waiting for a social welfare claim perhaps. I think it is normally referred to as an interim payment. There are about five under the heading. I do not want to get to get caught up with the language of it.

That service is very important. However, there is problem and I want Mr. McKeon to hear it. The Minister stands up and reads out in the Dáil what is given to her and says there is no problem. I want to be fair to the Minister. Generally, that is what she is saying. Others and I have put it to her that there is problem. There were local clinics in different towns. Take County Laois, for example. There would have been a clinic perhaps one morning a week for two hours in Mountrath, Abbeyleix, Rathdowney, Mountmellick, Portarlington and places such as that. In fact, in Portarlington and Rathdowney, there would have been a service because they have small social welfare offices. However, that service has deteriorated.

The community welfare officers, CWOs, are under pressure and I understand that. Obviously, there is more pressure on the Department and we acknowledge that. However, there is a huge issue in that many people who are going for those payments are vulnerable. If it is an interim payment, often they have no other payment for weeks. They are caught in an awful situation. Sometimes they are sent to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. That is not a good place to be. That is not fair to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul either - to try to get it to fill the gap. Basically, they are being told, in some cases, to send emails. Trying to get in contact with the community welfare officer can be difficult. Mr. McKeon said arrangements can be made through the Intreo offices. However, some of the offices in counties are not Intreo offices because it is not the Department's employees running them. They are not the Department's offices; they are contractors. I do not think the one in Portlaoise is an Intreo office, is it?

Mr. John McKeon

We have what we call a control office in Portlaoise, so there are employment service officers and-----

Is that an Intreo office?

Mr. John McKeon

No, it is not a full Intreo office.

It is not a full one. The staff there are brilliant. They are my next-door neighbours and they are very good. They are super-efficient. However, there is a problem in relation to that outreach and the absence of face-to-face meetings. Sometimes the people who are applying need help filling out the forms. They are very straightforward forms. However, there is a problem in terms of service delivery. I outlined the kind of payments - the special needs payment, the urgent needs payment and interim payments for people who are waiting for a social welfare claim for illness benefit or something like that. They are out of work perhaps for the first time. There is then the additional needs payment, which is related to cost of living.

I am asking Mr. McKeon to re-examine this. I do not want his staff tied up, sitting and waiting for people to come in the door in clinics at every crossroads or anything like that. However, if there could be a network of four or five clinics run in counties, where there would be a CWO, who generally do good work, as any of them I have been in contact with does, to process it. If they have to appeal, it can be very slow once it goes over to D'Olier Street. That system is already on overload. Sometimes much of this can be solved at a face-to-face meeting without it getting to that point. Perhaps Mr. McKeon-----

Mr. John McKeon

I take the point the Chair made. We have community welfare officers in permanent locations around the country. There are 58 locations where they are permanently located – actually it is 59 now. They are there from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., five days a week in 59 locations around the country.

What locations are in County Laois?

Mr. John McKeon

I will have to get the Chair that information. I will come back to him with that. Certainly, Rathdowney is one. We also have other locations-----

I think Rathdowney is gone.

Mr. John McKeon

No. That is the point I was going to make. The Chair mentioned Rathdowney, and I know that Rathdowney is one that is open on a part-time basis. However, as well as the 59 around the country that are open on a permanent basis, there are about 59 as well - I need to confirm that number - that are open on a part-time basis for two to three hours a week. Overall, we basically have an in-person CWO service in about 100 locations around the country. About half are permanently staffed and about half are satellites. In addition, there about another 50 locations that a CWO will travel to within an hour's notice.

I am asking the Department to re-examine that.

Mr. John McKeon

We definitely will.

In towns such as Mountmellick, Mountrath, Rathdowney, Graiguecullen and places like that, the service being pulled has caused a problem among the most vulnerable. If it can be done, I have no problem with it being part time and one morning a week or whatever. However, we need to reinstate that service.

Mr. John McKeon

We are trying to get a balance. I will not talk about Laois in particular because I do not have the details in front of me. We are trying to get to a balance of having a permanent CWO presence in a location that is accessible to most people. I will pick an area other than Laois. For example, if I know that there is a CWO in Kells one week for one morning, in Trim another morning and in Newcastle a different morning, I need to know that schedule to get to them. However, if I know they are always in Navan, I know I can get to Navan. We then try to support the other clinics. We are trying to get a permanent presence. The other thing we have done is set up a telephone service as well, which is actually the model they use in the North. Just to give the Chair comfort-----

There are problems with that though. There are complaints of trying to get through and chasing lines. There is a problem with that service. People sending emails-----

Mr. John McKeon

Can the Chair give me examples of that? I will ask Ms Leonard to comment as well. Certainly, that telephone line is permanently staffed. The data we get from the telephone system management are that calls are answered very quickly. We know that three quarters of the calls that come into that line are resolved on the phone with the claim being dealt with. About a quarter then get referred to a personal CWO. However, if there are examples of where there are problems, I ask the Chair to please give them to me. That is not something we would stand over, to be honest, if that is the situation.

Ms Teresa Leonard

There are two lines. One is for the Intreo centre. In fairness, we are working on the service of that line. It has to be improved. However, we have a dedicated line for community welfare service - unless people are mixing those two up. We will do a bit more publicity on our site as to which number is for the actual community service. We have ten clerical officers on that line at all times ready to take calls. The figures for the last period show that 93% of calls have been answered. Therefore, answering is at a very high level on that line. In addition to that, we watch the numbers coming to that number and whether there are calls pending. If the numbers go up, we expand the numbers of officers. We are taking that particular line very seriously. It will be answered.

In addition to that, from that line, seven community welfare officers are attached to that whom the clerical officer on that particular line can call on and who will even make a payment directly or arrange for the person to pick up a payment wherever he or she is. We have taken that line and are focusing on those queries. It can tell someone the status of his or her claim and where to go to meet someone or make an appointment with the local community welfare officer for a person. It does all of that. We are building-----

That sounds like the way Ms Leonard is saying it works. What I am saying is that there are problems. Ms Leonard mentioned 93%. That means it is not working for 7%. It is not an easy system to work. Issues like no Intreo office-----

Mr. John McKeon

The Minister has already said this and we are aware of the service as I referenced in my opening statement. Part of the sanction we received from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for extra staff this year is for extra community welfare service staff. Between 70 and 80 staff will be allocated to the community welfare service next year. In the past month, we put in an extra 30 staff in the community welfare service.

I am conscious of time as an important visitor is due to address the Dáil today. We have another meeting after this one.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

Could Mr. McKeon send a note to the meeting about where community welfare officers are available for face-to-face meetings in Laois-Offaly?

Mr. John McKeon

We can do it for the whole country.

That would be great.

Ukrainians are all over the country yet there is no Intreo office open on a full-time basis in Enniscorthy. We do not have an Intreo office or a Local Link service from Enniscorthy to Wexford, which makes it difficult for the volunteers on the ground. Volunteers are getting tired. They have been working really hard so I ask the Department to have a look at that-----

Mr. John McKeon

We are aware of that issue. That was a branch office so it was in the contracted offices. The staff in that branch office are moving to join the Department and we will open that office again.

Is that on a full-time basis?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes.

That is good news.

I apologise for rushing things at the end. I thank the witnesses and the staff from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for appearing before us this morning. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for assisting the committee. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings for today's meeting? Agreed.

I know a lot of information was sought and imparted today and there is a bit of follow-up. I thank the witnesses for that. It is a big Department.

Mr. John McKeon

We will have our own list of questions but just in case we miss any, could the committee secretariat let us know?

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.43 p.m. and resumed at 12.49 p.m.
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