COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 2022

Chapter 8 - Contract payments in respect of Convention Centre Dublin

Mr. Seamus McCarthy (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Mr. Maurice Buckley (Chairman, Office of Public Works) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everyone to the meeting. No apologies have been received. If attending in the committee room, attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others against the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and is accompanied this morning by Mr. Leonard McKeown, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning, we will engage with officials from the Office of Public Works to examine the following: from the 2021 Appropriation Account, Vote 13 - Office of Public Works, OPW; and from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services: Chapter 8 - Contract payments in respect of Convention Centre Dublin. Information was also requested from the OPW regarding its evaluation of its expenditure for value for money, and this is in the context of a related provision in the committee’s orders of reference.

We are joined by the following officials from the OPW: Mr. Maurice Buckley, chairman; Mr. Ciaran O'Connor, State architect; Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management; Mr. Martin Bourke, commissioner; Mr. Mick Long, director of corporate services; and Ms Rosemary Collier, assistant secretary. We are also joined by Ms Marie Mulvihill from the relevant Vote section at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They are all very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile telephones are on silent or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chairman to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I may direct witnesses to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such directions.

Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we move to opening statements, Mr. Buckley is welcome. As mentioned, the committee requested information from the OPW and from Mr. Buckley, as Accounting Officer for the OPW, in relation to value for money. This was so the committee could assess whether Mr. Buckley can demonstrate that value for money has been achieved in the accounts under his responsibility. Clarity was sought by his office as to what was required. The clerk contacted me in relation to this and, following that discussion, advised Mr. Buckley's office that answers were required to each of the eight questions set out in the document, and as the request was in addition to the usual material, the answers could be concise. Despite this, Mr. Buckley's response provided a short overview of his efforts to assess expenditure for value for money without any reference to the questions asked by the committee. I note that Mr. Buckley was advised of the committee’s intention to engage with him today on 13 November, the formal invitation issued on 21 November and the request for the value for money information issued on 28 November. We feel sufficient notice was given. I would be grateful if Mr. Buckley could set out why we have not received answers to those eight questions. It is a framework the committee has and we have put a lot of thought into putting it together. It is part of our obligations under standing orders. I ask Mr. Buckley to explain why we do not have that here this morning.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Thank you. The request is one that we have not dealt with before. I appreciate it is part of the new procedure but at a time when we were preparing a lot of information for the committee on the briefing, we were taken a little by surprise by the request. We should not have been and I appreciate the need to put the information together and that we are late coming back. I apologise for that.

Chairman

The reason we set it out within that framework of eight different sections was in order to make it easy for witnesses coming in. We understand there is a lot of preparation work for the Accounting Officer coming in but the fact is that we do not have it here this morning. The OPW has a large brief and a large budget, and there is no argument with that. We are anxious that when Accounting Officers come in, they comply with that. We would appreciate it if that could be followed up on. We accept this is the first time for Mr. Buckley to receive that particular request in that format. We ask that his office would respond to it within the next two weeks under those eight headings.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will come back on that.

Chairman

Thank you. I will move on. I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2021 appropriation account for Vote 13 records gross expenditure of €492.5 million. The account is presented under two programme headings: €99.6 million, or 20% of the total, was spent on the flood risk management programme; and just under €393 million was spent on the estate management programme.

The OPW provides office and other accommodation to Departments and offices using a combination of leased and State-owned property. The associated costs are a direct charge on the Vote. This includes rent payments totalling €103 million; expenditure on new works, alterations and additions costing €97 million; and property maintenance and supply payments totalling just over €64 million. The account records the value of State-owned land and buildings at the year end at just over €3.4 billion.

Apart from the activity accounted for under Vote 13, the OPW also acts on an agency basis on behalf of Departments and State agencies. This mainly relates to the carrying out of major capital works and the leasing of accommodation. The expenditure associated with this agency activity is reflected in the accounts of the client Departments and agencies. Total agency expenditure handled by the OPW amounted to almost €184 million in 2021. This brings the aggregate value of the expenditure handled by the OPW to €676 million in the year. The surplus on the Vote at the year end was €40.4 million. Of this, unspent capital allocations for flood risk management to the value of €20.7 million were carried over to 2022. The balance of €19.7 million was surrendered back to the Exchequer.

I issued a clear audit opinion with regard to the appropriation account but drew attention to two matters disclosed in the statement on internal financial control. First, the Accounting Officer discloses that there was a material level of procurement charged to the Vote that was not compliant with public procurement rules. Second, he sets out the level of expenditure on two measured-term maintenance contracts, where the amount actually spent was very significantly in excess of the original estimated value. Total expenditure to the end of 2021 was €103.3 million on a contract put in place in 2018 that had an anticipated value of €15 million.

Chapter 8 of my report on the accounts of the public services examined how the OPW has managed certain contract-related underperformance in the operation of the Convention Centre Dublin. The convention centre is operated by a private special purpose company under a public private partnership, PPP, agreement with the OPW. PPPs are agreements between the State and a private partner where the inherent risks of a project or enterprise are intended to be assigned to the party better positioned to manage them. The financial terms of the deal should fairly reflect the allocation of the risks. In the case of the convention centre, the State is committed to a stream of expenditure over 25 years, in the form of regular unitary payments. In 2021, these amounted to €23.8 million. The primary objective for the State in entering the PPP agreement is to increase Ireland’s share of the international conference market, thereby increasing incoming tourism revenues. Under the terms of the PPP agreement, there is provision for a modest reduction in the annual unitary charge amounts payable to the operator when the number of international delegates falls below specified minimum levels. Due to the impact of the Covid-related restrictions on travel and indoor gatherings, the operator did not reach the target minimum level of international conference delegates. Under the PPP arrangement, the State was obliged to pay the bulk of the annual unitary charge. Due to the shortfall in international delegate numbers, however, an estimated €1.32 million was due for withholding in the period August 2020 to July 2022, with a further estimated €190,000 due to be withheld in the period August 2022 to July 2023. Pending the outcome of negotiations with the operator, the OPW paid the full unitary payment amounts that were otherwise due for the periods under review, without the specified deduction. In my view, this represents an overpayment of the amount due under the contract.

Chairman

I thank Mr. McCarthy. As detailed in his letter of invitation, Mr. Buckley has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to attend this meeting. I am joined by a number of members of the OPW management board. Beside me are Mr. Mick Long, head of corporate services, and Mr. Martin Bourke, head of estate management. In front of me is Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management, Ms Rosemary Collier, head of heritage services and capital delivery, and Mr. Ciaran O’Connor, State and principal architect. Ms Marie Mulvihill also joins us from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I hope the advance brief and updates provided to the committee included sufficient information on the matters raised in recent correspondence. I apologise again for the late submission of the value-for-money papers. I just checked and three cases have been provided. However, I am very happy to answer any queries on the updates provided or any other matters the Chairman or members wish to raise with me and my management board colleagues today.

I will present some summary output information on the 2021 appropriation account for Vote 13 and comment further on matters raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in the chapter of his report entitled Contract payments in respect of Convention Centre Dublin. However, I will first outline to the committee the essential role the OPW plays in how Government and the State deliver on a wide variety of projects for the Irish people.

Our vision is to maintain "our built and natural environments in harmony" and our purpose is to provide the Government and the public with versatile, innovative and specialist services. I will refer to just some of those specialist services provided to Government. We are the State’s lead body on flood risk management. We provide office space for more than 40,000 public servants. We maintain and showcase national monuments and important historic buildings such as Leinster House, where we are today. We manage public parks and gardens. We oversee the State art collection and when called upon, we co-ordinate and organise State events.

The OPW's greatest strength is its people. They bring a focus and commitment to their roles and have a wide range of expertise and experience across the property and heritage estates and flood risk management. Projects and requirements of Governments frequently change. What is constant, however, is the need for the State to have the expertise and capability to deliver on its plans for our people. That need is highlighted in the OPW's recent role in the State's response to the Ukraine humanitarian crisis, our ongoing work on the response to Brexit and the continuing delivery of infrastructure projects under the national development plan.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, the 2021 gross expenditure of the OPW was €493 million. In addition to the information on expenditure presented to the committee today in respect of Vote 13, I must point out that the OPW acts as an important delivery agent, undertaking work on behalf of Departments and State agencies. Expenditure on this activity in 2021 amounted to an additional €184 million. This appears as a charge on the accounts of the client organisations.

Exchequer funding to the OPW supports two core programmes of work, that is, flood risk management and estate management, which includes heritage services. Almost €100 million was invested under the flood risk management programme in 2021, reflecting the significant growth in the number of schemes in the design and planning stage leading through to construction in recent years. As part of the OPW multifaceted approach to flood relief, we continue to implement a suite of infrastructural and other measures to mitigate the impact of flooding on people, homes, properties and businesses. More than 300 communities around the country, which are home to approximately 3 million citizens, will benefit from the current investment programme.

An amount of €393 million was invested in estate management in the past accounting year. We have one of the largest, most complex and wide-ranging property portfolios in the State. It includes 2,500 properties that are managed as a shared service for over 80 Government bodies within a very complex working environment.

This responsibility has become all the more essential for the State as the OPW supports the design and delivery of the workplace of the future for the Irish Civil Service.

In the aftermath of the pandemic, both our future and our workplaces will be different, and we are addressing the most urgent issues of climate change and sustainability. The OPW is at the coalface of these issues across its remit. In delivering the workplace of the future we are working with clients to develop more sustainable and innovative accommodation solutions, including a number of notable retrofit projects happening within the OPW portfolio.

In order to carry out its functions, the OPW uses a mix of in-house expertise and outsourced services, contracted through a wide variety of appropriate public procurement channels, including the measured term contract to which the Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers. The procurement of these services is cost-effective, compliant and conducted in a transparent manner and while developing these methods, I am conscious of the ongoing needs to meet the compliance and transparency requirements of the Government. Procuring works through framework contracts often represents the most efficient mechanism for the delivery of maintenance and small works services in particular.

While the demand on the Dublin-based measured term maintenance contract was underestimated when it was established, it nevertheless proved to be essential in delivering on the urgent critical infrastructure needed to prepare Departments and the State for the impact of Brexit. Brexit is an example of the OPW being called upon to carry out essential works for the Government at short notice. The initial request was for facilities at Dublin Airport, Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort. However, what started as nine projects eventually grew to become 28 projects for four Departments. This meant as a country we were prepared for the changes that ensued when the UK left the customs union. While it was not anticipated that the contract would be needed for projects of this scale, it nevertheless ensured essential infrastructure was delivered by more than 60 small and medium-sized subcontractors in labour-intensive works within the required deadlines, while controlling costs and ensuring value for money.

Separately, the appropriation account refers to a significant increase in the value of non-compliance within procurement rules. As referenced, the sum of €18 million refers to regional spend on regional building maintenance works. This procurement process was based on a list system of engaging multiple small and medium-sized enterprise contractors across the nationwide portfolio. Contracts in excess of the advertising threshold of €50,000 were awarded by way of competitive requests for tender. However, this system has since been proven not to be fully compliant with the current rules. In collaboration with the Office of Government Procurement and the local government operational procurement centre, the process of moving to a compliant system of procurement for these contracts is well under way. This will see the level of contracts awarded in this manner reduced by 50% in 2022 and they will continue to fall as contracts are closed out and new procurement frameworks are established.

From a wider perspective, an ongoing programme of procurement compliance improvements is being progressed across all sections of the OPW. A corporate procurement plan for the OPW is now in place and will be implemented under the auspices of a relatively newly-formed procurement advisory unit and an internal procurement network. The OPW, while initially seeing an increase in the non-compliant returns on procurement reported through greater transparency, is now much better placed to deliver procurement compliance into the future, while still achieving the flexibility needed for the work of the OPW. The Office of Government Procurement has engaged in detail with us on this matter and has been of tremendous assistance in our drive towards speedily reducing the level of non-compliance procurements while ensuring our continued ability to deliver for government.

I will update the committee on the latest position in relation to the performance at the convention centre in Dublin. This matter is a relatively complex one and I am still considering legal advice and the position of the parent Department, namely, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on this matter. I have also decided to seek further advice from EUROSTAT and from the Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform on the options available, before reverting to the Convention Centre Dublin and making a final decision on the matter. I will revert to the committee once a decision has been made by the OPW on this.

I thank my colleagues in the OPW for their work in delivering services as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic. I am honoured to work with such a dedicated team in the OPW and I am very proud of the long legacy that the OPW has in delivering services to the Irish people across the country.

I thank the Chairman and the committee members for their time, and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for its work and recommendations. I welcome any questions.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Buckley.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Buckley and his vast team are very welcome. It is appreciated. We appear to have the whole shooting gallery here, which is great.

I will start by touching first on the maintenance contracts, and particularly the measured term maintenance contracts. In the period from 2020 to date, were any works carried out that were in excess of the €500,000 with regard to those contracts?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. Most of the Brexit projects we refer to were well in excess of the €500,000 guideline.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Buckley said "well in excess". Perhaps he could just expand on that and the period.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Brexit works were in the period from 2019, with the very last works closing out this year, or having closed out. In total across that period, I am told by my colleague here that it was in the region of €71 million.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is that €71 million over and above, or is that just Brexit related?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

In that, as I just said in my statement, there were some 29 projects. I can check it exactly but I would say that every one of them was more than €500,000 in value.

Deputy Imelda Munster

When we last engaged on this, the criticism was from 2015 to 2018. The OPW was tendering contracts at €3 million but spending €10 million. Then the OPW was tendering contracts at €5 million but spending €25 million. There is a quare difference between €3 million and €10 million, and between €5 million and €25 million. Why is the OPW so unable to accurately forecast?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is very important to explain that what we are talking about there is a framework contract, which consists of lots of individual projects. Lest anybody listening would misunderstand, it is not that the work cost more than anticipated: it is that more projects were done than anticipated.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But this is the maintenance contract, so if the tender was for €3 million, surely one would have been able to forecast what needed doing and to issue the contract for €3 million. But then to pay €10 million-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Each individual project within that is very carefully monitored and comes in exactly on cost. That is the beauty of that framework. There is a whole schedule-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Why the overspend?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Because more projects were required and done.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right, but had the OPW not an idea of that in advance when it was issuing the tender?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Hindsight is golden and-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay, hindsight is golden but this happened repeatedly. This happened in 2018 and 2019. Does the OPW not learn from past mistakes? It actually happened in 2015 if we go back.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It comes really from the period of Ireland coming out of financial recession of 2010 and the-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is all the more reason to be prudent with taxpayers' money. It appears that the OPW does not seem to learn from its mistakes. Each year, it issues the contract and it goes to three times - more recently five times - above the original tender amount. Lessons do not appear to be learned.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

They have been learned certainly. I must state again-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Buckley said they have been learned; we have yet to see the proof of that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I am going to demonstrate how that-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Under the new framework I believe the contract is €10 million. Is that right? It commenced this year and the works were valued at €10 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is €10 million per annum.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How can we possibly have confidence that the OPW has accurately forecast that those works would come in under the tender amount? Going by its track record, that €10 million could end up being €50 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There are a number of points there. We have developed a number of parallel frameworks. At the time we are talking about, there was a single measured-term maintenance contract in place for all of greater Dublin. Now there are two - north Dublin and south Dublin approximately. There are a number of other specific framework contracts for works required. For example, there is a frequent requirement for office fit-outs at very short notice. We have learned from experience in the past that in order to meet the timelines required by the Department, we had to use the measured-term maintenance contract in order to get the transparency and control we needed. We have specific frameworks in place.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Therefore, Mr. Buckley could pretty much guarantee us that it will not go over that €10 million by a factor of multiples because he has just said the OPW has learned and put measures in place. How can he seriously expect us to have confidence? Is he telling us that we can have confidence that the OPW has learned from its mistakes, such as the blowing of taxpayers' money and not being able to adequately forecast, and that it has corrected all that and will not go over this framework of €10 million this year?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is very important that I repeat that this is not overspending of taxpayers' money.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What is required is to adequately forecast. We have gone through that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I just wanted to make sure it is understood-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

A hames was made of every contract the OPW issued because it has gone over by multiples each time, and it is getting worse. Mr. Buckley said there were additional works but the OPW was not able to forecast those works and yet that is the job it is tasked with. Regarding the €10 million and that the OPW has learned lessons and has put frameworks in place, can Mr Buckley guarantee the committee that it will not go over that €10 million and we will not see the constant mistakes of the past?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

With the range of frameworks we have in place now and our experience in anticipating the demands for the different types of work including maintenance and knowledge of the estate, which is improving all the time as we invest in IT systems and track the data on the different buildings. I am very confident that we have good systems in place that give us flexibility, that continue to give the cost control, which has been all the way through-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

It will not go over that €10 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----but that allows us to better forecast the total number of projects that are likely to come up under each of the framework contracts.

Deputy Imelda Munster

With the new €10 million framework, Mr. Buckley reckons that the OPW has got its act together, knows what work needs to be done and will not come in over the €10 million. Is that right?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Does Mr. Bourke want to comment on that?

Mr. Martin Bourke

A major effort has gone into the forecast in all of these frameworks and what might be drawn off them.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was this recently?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Over the years.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is Mr. Bourke serious?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Absolutely massive.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Bourke cannot expect this committee to accept the OPW has any credibility in this matter. Let us just start from the €10 million. It is clear to everyone that the OPW has not done that. With each tender issued, the amount went over by multiples. Has the OPW got its act together with the new €10 million framework? Can Mr. Bourke guarantee that it will not blow taxpayers' money in multiples because it has not been able to adequately forecast the amount of work that needs to be done and the cost?

Mr. Martin Bourke

With the new framework, the estimate of the value of that is based on what we know at the moment. Clearly with the previous framework the big unknown that could not have been predicted by anyone in this room or anywhere else was the onset of Brexit.

Deputy Imelda Munster

We know that to a certain amount but I am talking about from 2015 onwards. Year on year the OPW rolled over.

Mr. Martin Bourke

Yes, and-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does the OPW have a preventive maintenance plan in place?

Mr. Martin Bourke

We do.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Can that be furnished to us? Does Mr. Bourke have it here?

Mr. Martin Bourke

We do not have it here, but we can certainly give the Deputy of full breakdown of how we go about our maintenance-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is there any way we could get it during this meeting? Surely there are enough OPW staff here to furnish us with it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There are 2,500 buildings and it would be very detailed.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I imagine the OPW would have its preventive maintenance plan altogether somewhere.

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is done by district and by regions because of all the properties.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How quickly can it be got to us? Could somebody e-mail it? Could a message be sent out so that we might have it before the close?

Mr. Martin Bourke

We would have to get to the districts and the regions I presume.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If it is that cumbersome to pull together, it would not do if someone were looking for it in a hurry now, would it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We can certainly give the Deputy the maintenance spend by region.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I asked if the OPW had a maintenance plan in place and the answer was "Yes". When I asked if it could be furnished to us, it turned out to be convoluted, was done by district and could not be easily obtained.

Mr. Martin Bourke

All our preventive work is done through our districts.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is done in districts, but given the number of OPW staff, is there not one person who could actually say that he overseas that plan overall or is it just bits and pieces?

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is not bits in pieces; it is just done by districts and regions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Are they pulled together, the districts and divisions?

Mr. Martin Bourke

At financial level, it is.

Deputy Imelda Munster

However, it is not done in the OPW's preventive maintenance plan.

Mr. Martin Bourke

Not on the individual-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

That might be something the OPW might learn from.

Mr. Martin Bourke

That we would centralise it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, centralise it, but also if somebody was across all of it, supervising it, it might end up saving the taxpayer a hell of a lot more in the long run.

Mr. Martin Bourke

There would be a lot of scrutiny on it at regional level. All jobs that-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

It appears for all the good it does, when we look at-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Maybe I could come back in there. The Deputy is absolutely right to highlight the importance of preventive maintenance. That is the way we are moving as all modern maintenance organisations are doing - less reactive maintenance and more preventive maintenance.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The OPW has put a particular focus on it.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. Most of our buildings are occupied by people. There would be a dialogue with the occupants as to what time it suited the occupants, that we had the funding and capacity available to come in, replace a roof, upgrade windows and so on.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thank Mr. Buckley for that. I am actually a bit-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We are not in any way avoiding the questions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I know that. I am a bit embarrassed for the OPW saying that it has a preventive maintenance plan but that plan has not come together for districts, regions or whatever and that nobody in particular is overseeing that plan as a whole given the amount of money.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is being overseen and-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

However, Mr. Buckley cannot furnish us with that. Mr. Bourke has said it is in districts, it is here and everywhere, but not available.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Not at all. I am thinking of a short-form summary that might be of value to the Deputy.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could the OPW co-ordinate its preventive maintenance plan from the districts, regions, the whole lot and furnish us with that by the end of today?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No. It will not be possible today, but we can certainly do that. It is simply because of its complexity and the need to have it in a form that is readable and understandable.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Can Mr. Buckley give us a date when we might have it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I can check with my colleague and come back-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

How cumbersome is it to pull it together? Could we have it by mid-January?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Mid-January.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will Mr. Bourke give a commitment that we will have it and we will not need to chase him up on it?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Certainly, the Deputy will not need to chase me up on it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I want to touch on the convention centre farce and the shortfall. Was it the OPW or the Department that gave permission to not withdraw that money or not decrease the money because of the shortfall in international delegates? Who gave permission to spend more than the contract stipulated?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

As I explained, a decision has not been taken yet on what-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I ask Mr. Buckley to explain. Did the OPW deduct the money as per the contract?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Perhaps Mr. Bourke might take this.

Mr. Martin Bourke

We did not deduct but that was not done as a result of what was stipulated in the contract. There is a contracted amount that must be paid and then, under various circumstances-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

We know that. There was a shortfall in international delegations.

Mr. Martin Bourke

Yes but there were other things as well.

Deputy Imelda Munster

A sum of €1.32 million.

Mr. Martin Bourke

We did not deduct it because that issue has not been fully determined yet. It is extremely complex.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the contract not crystal clear?

Mr. Martin Bourke

No. It is not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What sort of legal advice is the OPW seeking?

Mr. Martin Bourke

We have our own legal advisers on this.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I do not understand. If a contract is drawn up and if it says if there is a shortfall in international delegates coming that the State pays less and that money can be taken back. We should bear in mind this is taxpayers' money.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I agree.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Bourke is saying that because the contract is so convoluted and complex the OPW did not take the money back.

Mr. Martin Bourke

No.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I wrote down what Mr. Buckley said. He said it is a complex matter and the OPW is seeking legal advice. If the contract and the stipulations are clear, why would the OPW need to seek further legal advice? I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General about this in a moment. Is it not the case that the OPW was found out for being happy enough to let even more taxpayers' money than it has already wasted go down the tube? Why the reluctance?

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is because there is a complexity around the issue.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What is the complexity?

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is that the Government, as a result of the Covid crisis that hit this country which stopped all travel, including international travel-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

We know that.

Mr. Martin Bourke

-----and the convention business died.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The contract is still the contract.

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is but it has to be interpreted and read in the context of the prevailing environment.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is there not an amount of money from 2022 to 2023 that should have been deducted?

Mr. Martin Bourke

That will be handled as per the contract next year. When the international conference delegate numbers are agreed then the deductions kick in next year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to come in on this briefly. Is it a complex matter? Is there a requirement to seek further legal advice or is it pretty much clear-cut that this money should have been deducted? Was this lackadaisical?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

My interpretation is that the money should have been deducted and that this specific matter is relatively clear. It goes back to the sharing of risks when you get into a contract and that is why it takes a long time to put a contract like this in place. You have to figure out who is carrying out what risk. Sometimes the risk goes against you and you pay the price. If the boot was on the other foot and the Convention Centre Dublin was entitled to a greater payment then it would demand to receive it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Without a doubt. The State's financial watchdog is telling the OPW that this contract was clear, that the OPW did not follow through and that it was lackadaisical with taxpayers' money. The OPW could not give a hoot or a damn. How dare they.

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to treat the witnesses with respect.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes but we have gone through the other tenders where there is wanton waste of taxpayers' money. Here was a contract that stipulated clearly that the money was to be handed back. The witnesses have come in with an attitude of "Who shot John" and have said that complex legal advice has been sought. We have asked the State's financial watchdog whether or not that contract was clear and we have been told it was. The OPW was lackadaisical with taxpayers' money.

Chairman

I invite Mr. Buckley to respond briefly to that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

That is incorrect as stated.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General incorrect?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

May I respond? It is important that I respond.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Respond to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Chairman

Let the witness respond.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If he responds to the Comptroller and Auditor General's comment.

Chairman

He will respond to both.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will respond to all the comments that were made in that protracted period. The most important thing to understand is that when you have a long 25 or 30-year contract like we have, if a dispute or issue arises along the way, that is clarified and agreed with the parties and it is addressed in the contract. While that is being done, the correct legal practice is that you do not stop the payments first. Rather, you continue to pay the contractual amounts and you deal with the dispute separately. It is a technicality - and I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General will agree with this - in any disputed contract you deal with the dispute but while that is being dealt with you are legally obliged to carry on servicing the contract as written. There are 14 years in this and there is no mad urgency to it. It is important to get this correct. We do not want to be in complex legal disputes that cost money and we will get this correct. It is not as simple as just applying the terms. The contract itself is simple but the circumstances are not, as Mr. Bourke explained. We will address this.

There is a balance here. In this committee we are looking at the financial terms of the contract and, as the Accounting Officer I also have to look at the overall project of the Convention Centre Dublin and its success in building delegate numbers so that when that comes back to the State in 14 years time it will be a healthy business that the State can then pick up and drive forward. That is the balance.

Chairman

Can we be kept up to date on that particular issue, that payment and what progress is being made with it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I welcome the witnesses. I want to focus on flooding and flood prevention. I ask the witnesses to outline for me what the OPW's value-for-money measures are regarding passing ongoing flood works. What would be standard? I only have ten minutes so I ask the witnesses to do that in a relatively succinct way.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will do my best to be succinct. As the Deputy knows, we have a large number of flood risk projects of different shapes and sizes running in parallel. There is a series of value-for-money controls in those projects. First, we go through the procurement system twice. We do so once to build a design team with all the expertise needed for the particular project, which is a competitive process. We do so the second time when the project comes to construction. We go to tender to get the best construction contractors, the best price and the best quality for the State. During both of those phases we have project teams of experts who are involved in regular project meetings, usually on a monthly basis. They are also engaged in project oversight, credit controls-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What about after construction?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Then there is maintenance in place that is either carried out by the OPW or often by the local authorities on our behalf.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am asking if, after the completion of a flood project, the OPW goes back to look at value-for-money measures and whether the project was effective, along with doing an assessment to ensure the risk of flooding has been dissipated in these areas and has not had an unforeseen impact somewhere else.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I ask Mr. Buckley to outline that for me relatively quickly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

They are important processes and I will take the last point first. At the design phase we rely on computer modelling to assess the hydrology of the river involved and what the impact of the works will be. We would immediately, on completion of a flood scheme, or continuously, monitor levels in rivers. We have a system of water monitoring.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What does "continuously" mean? Is that every 18 months or every three years, for example? The OPW is also tasked with collating flood maps or data; is that correct?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What is the timing of that? Let us say the OPW finishes a significant project-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is hourly and daily.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is hourly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We monitor the water levels in all of the main rivers in Ireland. We work closely with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, but we run a network of gauges, automatic and manual, across the country. That feeds into information on what river levels are and what the likelihood of flooding is. It also allows us to immediately monitor the performance of any completed scheme. On the point the Deputy made, we must ask if the problem is pushed down the river somewhere and make sure the design has been effective. If there are any tweaks-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What happens if the design has not been effective?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Thankfully that has not been the case. I am not aware of any such instances.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What about Skibbereen?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

What about Skibbereen?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I have a few examples but let us take Skibbereen. There was a significant flood there in 2009 when 120 homes were flooded. Then a major project was done in 2016. From what I can see the number quoted for the project was €18 million, although I notice in the numbers we have received today that it is €34.5 million. Then there was a significant flood in 2020. The original project was a 200-year flood prevention plan.

It was completed around 2018. That is two years before it flooded significantly again, so that is a 1% effectiveness. Judging from the OPW's own numbers today, we are talking about nearly double the cost now. I presume there are ongoing works. I am sure there is some kind of ratio calculation there about a 1% effectiveness versus a 200-year cost. In this case the flood project comprised 3 km of flood walls, 4 km of embankments and a number of storm water pumping stations. Obviously, most of that work was not effective in 2020. What happens in such cases?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will bring in my colleague Mr. Jim Casey, who might have more specifics on Skibbereen. I am not familiar with it myself.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We could take other examples, but it is useful to have a real-world example.

Mr. Jim Casey

The Skibbereen scheme is substantially complete, providing nearly 100% of the intended protection for which the scheme was deigned. However, flooding occurred at the N71 Cork road during the August 2020 event-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Would Mr. Casey describe that as fluvial-----

Mr. Jim Casey

-----due to the lack of capacity of the existing drainage network.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is fluvial flooding then, not coastal flooding.

Mr. Jim Casey

No, it is pluvial flooding and outside the scope of the flood relief schemes. The Deputy will appreciate that the OPW deals predominantly with flood relief schemes associated in the case of Skibbereen with river or fluvial flooding, so the flooding in Skibbereen-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Skibbereen experiences coastal and fluvial flooding, so it is like a lot of areas, particularly in Cork and Dublin, where those two impacts are at play.

Mr. Jim Casey

Correct, and the OPW designs schemes to address both fluvial or river flooding and coastal flooding in the case of Skibbereen but not to address pluvial flooding or flooding arising from inadequacies of the drainage system. That would be a matter for the local authority.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The scheme failed, though.

Mr. Jim Casey

No, the scheme did not fail. The source-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It met the terms of reference. Who sets the terms of reference for projects?

Mr. Jim Casey

If I may clarify, the scheme did not fail. The-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Skibbereen flooded.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes, but it did not flood from a river or coastal flooding source. It flooded-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am sure the businesses in Skibbereen are not really worried as to why.

Mr. Jim Casey

It is important to understand the mechanism of flooding. I have clarified that the OPW does not design flood relief schemes for pluvial flooding. That is within-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We are told that millions are being spent in Skibbereen, originally €18 million and now almost double that, on protecting the town. As I said, we could talk about areas in Cork or elsewhere. There are loads of towns where this is happening. The people of Skibbereen saw major works and a lot of concrete poured, yet the town flooded in 2020. My question to Mr. Casey is, regardless of whether Waterways Ireland, the ESB or whoever else it might be has some tangential issue here or whether there is a lack of drainage, the OPW, ultimately, is tasked as a body with flood prevention and has spent the money and the town flooded. Since that has happened, what is the plan now? What are the measures in place? The cost-benefit analysis here does not stand up. It does not matter whose fault it was. Also, just in bare terms, the risk does not stand up in respect of the houses that are there. The OPW is tasked with protecting people, so what is the plan going forward and what measures does it have in place to-----

Mr. Jim Casey

I understand the question.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I want to finish. We can talk about how the OPW works tangentially with local authorities, the ESB, Waterways Ireland or whoever it might be. That may be part of the answer, but what is being said is the flood scheme did not fail although Skibbereen was flooded.

Mr. Jim Casey

I am happy to answer the Deputy's question if she gives me an opportunity to do so. She has asked me what we are doing now after that event. We are engaging with Cork County Council to understand the nature of that particular event. We do that as a matter of course. In fact, we ask local authorities to report to us after every flood event to give an explanation of the nature of it. We assess that in conjunction with the local authorities and we are doing that in the case of Skibbereen. If further measures are required, we will ensure they are brought forward.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

At the moment, though, the OPW does not have a plan in that particular case.

Mr. Jim Casey

I have just outlined that we are engaging with Cork County Council on this-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I accept that the OPW is talking to the council, but my question is whether there is a document somewhere with a plan for that area that deals with what happened in 2020.

Mr. Jim Casey

I think that is being led by Cork County Council, so that question would be better put directly to those who are leading at Cork County Council. What I can say is we are engaging with the council on the matter and have steering committees in place with it to ensure appropriate solutions to those problems are brought forward in the most timely manner.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Coming back-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes, I want to come back to Mr. Buckley because I have only 40 seconds left and I have so many more questions. To be clear, where the OPW has an instance like this, of course responsibility is shared and it is a complex issue, but you could say that about every single area in the country. I remember the floods around the Shannon. There was a lake around my brother's house. The ESB was involved in that. Where huge amounts of money have been spent and an area has still flooded, even if it is outwith the terms of the OPW's own flood project, how does the OPW measure the effectiveness of the flood relief capital projects? If the OPW is simply washing its hands and saying that is outside its terms of reference, that does not really help the people in the 120 houses.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy raises a very good point and it just emphasises the huge complexity of the flooding issue in Ireland, even without the climate change dimension, which is escalating the whole problem even more. I reassure the Deputy, however, that we work very closely with Irish Water in particular because drainage is a huge factor and, as the Deputy will know, Irish Water has an enormous investment programme in place to upgrade the drainage system and to separate runoff water from the main sewer systems in many towns in Ireland, and they are very often the same towns where we do flood schemes. Bandon is another example.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes. A lot of concrete has been poured in Bandon as well.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We can come back to the design of the schemes, but on the Deputy's point, we link in with the local authorities, Irish Water and other agencies involved. I certainly do not want to say it is somebody else's responsibility and, therefore, we are not interested. That is not the case at all. My understanding of 2020, which I was just recalling while the Deputy was speaking, was that in August 2020 there was an incredible downpour of rain in the Skibbereen area. That cannot be predicted and will happen, I am afraid, more and more often. It can happen anywhere in the country. It happens all over Europe. It is almost impossible to design for that. I reassure the Deputy, however, that the flooding that occurred in Skibbereen was on the N71, the approach road, due to culverts on the road and, to the best of my understanding, properties were not flooded during that event, thankfully.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

No, they were not. To be clear, I never suggested they were. I was talking about the 2009 event. Chair, I want to come in for a second round-----

Chairman

Briefly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The 2009 event was before the flood scheme was completed.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I know. I want to be clear, though. My point was that the OPW nationally is tasked with flood prevention regardless of the terms of reference it sets on its own projects.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. We are the lead agency and we co-ordinate with everybody else.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for attending and dealing with the queries raised. I wish to continue on the flood relief issue. My understanding was ten flood relief capital projects were ongoing in 2021. There was accumulated expenditure of €173 million, but my understanding is those ten projects will now cost around €213 million. Where are we with those ten projects? Are they finished? What is the final outturn in respect of the total cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

While my colleague tries to check the data on specifically those ten, I will explain that we go through a five-stage process in developing all those schemes. In the first three phases we evaluate options and go through the planning process and the detailed design. Only at the end of that stage can the cost of the scheme be estimated with any real accuracy. Therefore, it is not that the cost has increased, that we are paying more for the same thing. It is that the scope of the works needed to give the protection required has been greater than was initially-----

Deputy Colm Burke

These are projects that were up and running in 2021. Are they now complete and is there a final outturn for the total cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We can certainly check that for the Deputy. As for recently completed projects, the Douglas-Togher scheme, for example. was opened recently and Bandon is now fully complete. Specifically on those ten, unless Mr. Casey has it to hand, we might have to come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes, I ask Mr. Buckley to get back to me. I will move on. I refer to the timescale of the projects. Two specific projects in my constituency are the Glashaboy flood relief scheme and the Blackpool flood relief scheme. The Glashaboy scheme went out for tender before the whole project was abandoned and we are now back to square one. What is the timeframe now? Glashaboy was affected by serious flooding more than ten years ago and here we are, ten years on, and still absolutely nothing has been done.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will ask Mr. Casey to comment on that one.

Mr. Jim Casey

I thank the Deputy for the question. There were particular issues in relation to Glashaboy. In fact, we issued a contract letter of award to the preferred tender-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I know all of that.

Mr. Jim Casey

I am answering-----

Deputy Colm Burke

We are ten years from the time this major event occurred and we still do not have a contract in place. What is the timescale now for having a contract in place?

Mr. Jim Casey

I am answering the Deputy’s question. The timescale is that we expect to be going to tender before the end of this year, possibly next week.

Deputy Colm Burke

Was it not the case that the OPW prepared the tender documents previously, sent them out and tenders were submitted to take on the contracts?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

It then turned out that the people who were to do the contract withdrew from it. Therefore, all the documentation was already prepared. Why not invite in tenders within the following two or four weeks? Why does it take another eight months to again invite tenders?

Mr. Jim Casey

The reason we took longer to prepare tenders than what the Deputy outlined is that we changed the scope of work with a view to completing the project earlier than we would otherwise have done. We took some of the works out of the main contract in order to do them ahead of this next main contract. We assessed that, overall, the completion date for the works would be accelerated and we would recover some of the otherwise lost time. Just to clarify, the reason for not being able to proceed with the contract was due to hyperinflation and unusual circumstances.

Deputy Colm Burke

I am aware of that. If the OPW decides to invite tenders this week or within the next ten days, what is the timescale for all the documentation to come in, that is, submissions received from those who are interested in carrying out the work, and the acceptance time period?

Mr. Jim Casey

That would be of the order of three to four months, I expect.

Deputy Colm Burke

The big complaint I have from contractors is the time it takes from when the tenders come in to when the office accepts and decides on who should be awarded the contract. What timescale are we normally talking about?

Mr. Jim Casey

We are normally talking about one to two months. That is assuming there are no complexities and complications with the tender process.

Deputy Colm Burke

That is not what is happening in contracts. My understanding is that with many contracts - I have come across them in relation to schools and other Departments - there is a huge delay from the time the submissions are received to the time the decision is taken. We had inflation in the intervening period and the contractors could not do the project at the price they submitted.

Mr. Jim Casey

I can only speak to the flood relief scheme tenders. Assuming there are no complications, they typically take up to two months. However, there are exceptions and there can be complications in tender processes. In fact, one may often need to seek clarifications in relation to tenders, etc. Depending on the degree of complication, it can take longer.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I might be able to assist. I will bring in Mr. O’Connor. Mr. Casey is talking about flood risk contracts, which are single stage. However, often for schools, which the OPW does not do-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I am aware of that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----there is a two-stage tender.

Deputy Colm Burke

I am saying that there is a huge delay.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes, and I am explaining why.

Deputy Colm Burke

Across Government Departments, there is a huge delay from the time contracts are submitted to acceptance by the Department, whether it is the OPW, the Department of Education or the Department of Health. I am just saying we are now in a different timescale because of inflation and there is a need to put in place contracts at an earlier time than what the current process seems to be.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. It would be great to take the opportunity explain the complexity of a two-stage contract in a period of high inflation. Mr. O’Connor will explain it.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The key bit here is the Government forms a contract and it does not allow us to sign the main contract until also the specialist subcontractor tenders are done. The way that is set up at the moment is one gets the main contract and then goes out for the mechanical, electrical and-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I will just pick up the issue of specialist subcontractors. In the past five days, I was approached by a subcontractor who was cheaper than other subcontractors for a particular project. The OPW instructed the main contractor not to accept this subcontractor even though it had done work previously on OPW projects. It was cheaper and cost-effective, yet the main contractor was instructed not to take it on. Why would that arise?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I do not know. The Deputy is telling me something in the abstract. If he wants to give me particular names, I will answer about particular names.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will do that. This subcontractor is absolutely gobsmacked that it is-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Is this with regard to the Ukrainian project?

Deputy Colm Burke

No. I will give Mr. O’Connor the details on it.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I would be very surprised. The Deputy may not have the full element. People tend to tell their own stories to suit themselves. We would be happy to look at it and give a factual account.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the timescale for agreeing subcontractors?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That is the problem. When the Government forms a contract, that needs to be adjusted. Deputy Murphy will know that from projects in Leinster House on which he has worked with us on. In the set-up that is there at the moment, one has to get the main contract and then the mechanical, electrical and other specialists. Until all of those are co-aligned, one cannot place the main contract.

Deputy Colm Burke

Let us compare it with what is happening in the private sector. We seem to have projects that will take the OPW six or seven years and the private sector will get them done in three years. Should we not be looking at how the private is able to deliver in a far shorter timeframe?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There are a number of issues. I think the OPW proved in Brexit and what we are doing with the Ukrainian project that we can move at great speed - faster than anybody else. However, we have to operate within the rules given to us. The rules given to us by Government are the Government form of contract. That is a flawed document in my clear view and it needs to be looked at. We have to work within that.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has the OPW requested that a review be carried out in order to assist it? I fully understand that it wants to get on with projects as well. As Mr. O’Connor said, it has to work within the rules. Has it asked for that issue to be reviewed and a more up-to-date procedure put in place?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes. Twelve months ago last June, we wrote a comprehensive report on our experiences and gave that to the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, and we await a response.

Deputy Colm Burke

In June of what year?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Last year.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has the OPW followed up on that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes, but we have not received a response.

Deputy Colm Burke

Which Department does that come in under? Is it the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That would be the OGP's parent Department.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will return to-----

Chairman

The Deputy has gone over time. He can ask one question.

Deputy Colm Burke

On the OPW flood relief projects in Cork, I believe €109 million has been spent in recent years. On projects currently in the pipeline, how many will have work commenced by this time next year? I am referring to the Glashaboy and Blackpool schemes and a number of other projects around the county. There are 150 projects scheduled to be done between now and 2030 across the entire country at an estimated cost of €1.3 billion. I am a little concerned about how long it is taking to get projects into place.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Mr. Casey will address that point.

Mr. Jim Casey

The Deputy will be aware that we have recently opened two flood relief schemes in Cork. The first, the Douglas flood relief scheme in Cork city, opened a few weeks ago and the second is the Bandon flood relief scheme.

In terms of the question about schemes that are likely to start soon in Cork, I estimate that we could make a start next year with the Glashaboy scheme, subject to a satisfactory tender process, as well as, Morrison's Island, subject to conclusion of the planning process, which we expect is imminent.

Chairman

Ms Mulvihill is an official who is here to represent the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Can Ms Mulvihill reply to the Deputy's question about Government contracts? I ask, as Mr. O'Connor has said that the issue was raised with her Department last June.

Ms Marie Mulvihill

I work on the OPW Vote. I understand, from Mr. O'Connor, that the matter has gone to the OGP. I am happy to follow up with the OGP and respond to the committee.

Chairman

Yes, I thank Ms Mulvihill..

Deputy Verona Murphy

Can Mr. Buckley tell me whom I should ask about the cost of the customs facility in Rosslare Europort?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy can start with me and we will see where we go from there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does the OPW own the facility?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Is the Deputy referring to the Kilrane facility outside of the port?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, I do not know of any other customs facility in Rosslare. Does the OPW own the Kilrane facility?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There is the existing small customs facility in the port and we are building a major project there at the moment, which is why I asked.

The Kilrane site and buildings are owned by the OPW. It is operated by the four Departments involved.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much did it cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Again, we can check the exact figure.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Someone is checking the figure; I have about ten minutes left.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The figure is in the region of between €10 million to €15 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is a big region. Can I have the figure?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I can either get the Deputy the exact figure or a quick figure to keep time short. Let us say it is €10 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What was the basis for the building in terms of size and the amount of ground?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I could ask Mr. O'Connor to come in on that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Briefly, because the clock is ticking. Mr. Bourke said that we could not prepare for Brexit, which seems unusual. Somebody prepared by building a vast facility in Rosslare.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

To put that in context, that was to provide facilities for Rosslare as an interim to the project that is now out to tender, which is the complete renewal Rosslare Europort. So it was an interim process. When the new port is built we will re-use and repurpose that site for other purposes and the buildings are designed as such. The buildings that are there can be converted to many other uses, immediately for storage and immediately for other elements.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I accept that. There has been a proposal by a lot of other stakeholders, such as Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Wexford County Council, that the current facility in Rosslare be divided and used for the parking of HGV vehicles under the Road Safety Act. Has the OPW been involved in that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We are aware of that but that decision rests with the Department of Transport, which controls the ports and that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

But the OPW has no difficulty with that. Has the OPW been asked, in any way, to construct the site to give effect to the parking of HGV vehicles?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Our only input there was a number of months ago, when we were asked to facilitate. We spoke to the different Departments and they did facilitate HGV parking.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did they?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They did, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They allowed HGVs to park on the site that were originally parking in the village.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is the first that I have heard about it. Trucks are parking on the side of the road. The facility has not been provided in the way that an undertaking was given here at this committee, as well as other meetings of the transport committee. That facility still has not been provided. I ask Mr. O'Connor to give the committee, for the benefit of road safety, the correspondence the OPW has had from TII and the other stakeholders on preparing the facility. This is not about me getting on to the OPW; this is about joining the dots and giving value for money if we spend €10 million. I was involved in the haulage sector for 25 years so I know that there is never more than four to five trucks at the facility but there is parking spaces for 54 trucks. We do not need another facility to park HGVs. We need to give value for money to the Exchequer to utilise that space. In particular, at this point in time, we should not have anybody parked on the side of the road where there is an extremely busy community. There is a school that has over 300 children located right beside the facility and we should not have trucks anywhere near the roadside when the facility is virtually idle. I do not consider the facility to be value for money at this point in time. Maybe it will be in the future but at this point in time the facility is underutilised. We can save the Exchequer a lot of money by utilising it to its full potential because it is going to be at least five years before we see infrastructural change in Rosslare port. I do not want to know, Mr. O'Connor. The bottom line is that the facility is underutilised. The committee is here to discuss value for money and public Exchequer funding. The facility needs to be prepared and I need to see the correspondence to get that work done.

I wish to discuss the flooding of Bridgetown. Last year, on Christmas Day, we had serious floods in Bridgetown and I suppose this is Mr. Casey's area. I heard Mr. Buckley mention certain monitoring stations. Can Mr. Casey tell me which monitoring station did not work, thus resulting in Bridgetown and surrounding areas being flooded on Christmas Day?

Mr. Jim Casey

The Bridgetown event last Christmas was the result of very intense and extreme rainfall. It was of a nature that is almost impossible to predict given its convective nature. High-intensity events of short duration can happen. Tragically, there was a loss of life there and our sympathies go out to the family of Billy Kinsella and his work colleagues at Wexford County Council.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is very important, Mr. Casey, and I appreciate that. What is being done differently so we do not see any loss of life or flooding for 2022? What has changed? What has been done?

Mr. Jim Casey

In June 2022, Wexford County Council made a submission to the OPW. It was an application for funding under our minor works scheme for floodgates and barriers to be installed at impacted properties. Funding of €157,000 was approved by the OPW in July 2022. Wexford County Council has advised that it expects delivery in December. However, delivery of some of the larger barriers may be delayed until the new year.

In September of this year, Wexford County Council submitted an additional minor works application to engage consultants to complete a feasibility study on flood impact on the village, to propose mitigation and prevention measures, and to provide preliminary costings and commence a planning strategy in relation to that. The OPW has been engaging with Wexford County Council on the scope of that study.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Casey, why was that not done in 2021?

Mr. Jim Casey

I would say that these very extreme events-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No.

Mr. Jim Casey

They were unprecedented in relation to Bridgetown, I would say.

Deputy Verona Murphy

My first question that I asked, which Mr. Casey did not answer, was on what monitoring station was used or do we use. Clearly, it is hourly, according to Mr. Buckley. What station do we look at to see what is happening for the Wexford Bridgetown area? What station tells us that there could be an issue?

Mr. Jim Casey

We do have an intensive network of rain gauges right across the country-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not in County Donegal.

Mr. Jim Casey

-----including in the vicinity of Bridgetown. I cannot give the Deputy the precise name of that station but we can get back to her on that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Mr. Buckley know? Does anybody else know? The officials will find the information, as there are 15 people from Mr. Casey's Department here. The fact that we cannot get answers when there are 15 people officials present is gross. If we cannot get an answer then why are 15 people here? Why, in the name of God? It is a farce that an entourage is brought to a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts to sit in the balcony. I mean no disrespect to them and I am sure that they are all here to assist but for what I have no idea. I know that everybody is getting paid today but what reason they are here is beyond me because I cannot get an answer to my simple question.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Chairman, this is a very pejorative way of behaving. We are here to answer questions.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is pejorative, Mr. O'Connor?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We are not here to be harangued.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Pardon?

Chairman

The Deputy asked where is the station that monitors the area. Can the officials answer that question?

Mr. Jim Casey

I am happy to answer that.

Chairman

Please hold the answer for a second.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Chairman

Can we have a reply to the question during the meeting?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Chairman

The Deputy can continue with her questioning.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will return to my question. When it comes to flooding, we seem all the time to be closing the stable door when the horse has bolted.

Why do we know what the issue is now? I have spoken to the locals and been there. I spent Christmas Day in Bridgetown and Enniscorthy and my Christmas holidays last year visiting people who were put out of their homes. They were not compensated or restored in any way to where they were before this event. Their criticism of the OPW is that it was all preventable. In most cases, prevention is better and cheaper than the cure. The point is that the sluice gates which are not working and no longer manned in Bridgetown are now the answer. That is what it seems. The locals, who were never engaged, were well aware that this was the issue and had warned of it on a number of occasions. It is now a year later and in that period, action has not been taken.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Deputy Murphy is highlighting the core issue, which is that every community in Ireland, all over the country, is at risk of flooding, whether river, rain or coastal flooding. It is a huge problem which will escalate enormously in the next while.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am asking the one question that Mr. Buckley cannot answer, which is why the OPW did not do this in 2021. Why is it being done after the horse has bolted? From everything I have read, that seems to be the trademark of the OPW. It has happened in Enniscorthy, Blackwater and now in Bridgetown, to a severe degree.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I would not accept that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Buckley would not accept it.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No, we have just reported-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

What would Mr. Buckley say about Enniscorthy if he does not accept that? Was he in Enniscorthy last St. Stephen's Day and for the week post Christmas?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I would be down in Enniscorthy-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Was Mr. Buckley there for the week after last Christmas? Was Mr. Buckley there at any stage?

Chairman

I ask Deputy Murphy to let the witness answer the question.

Mr. Jim Casey

Can I answer that?

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, I did not ask Mr. Casey. I asked Mr. Buckley if he was in Enniscorthy for the week after Christmas last year.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I was not there that week. I have been there before and since then. I am familiar with the details of that scheme. One can pick that scheme and that town or many other towns that have not been protected but one can also pick the Douglas-Togher scheme that Mr. Casey just mentioned.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

One can also pick Clonakilty-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am asking questions that I want answers to.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----where people can sleep easy in their beds this winter when the rain is bad.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The OPW criticised the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about the fact that it did not pass the OPW's scheme and give effect to what it prepared for the Enniscorthy flood relief.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We were certainly disappointed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Will Mr. Buckley explain why the OPW was disappointed?

Chairman

Allow the witness time to answer.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I thank the Chair. It will take a minute to explain the Enniscorthy situation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am familiar with it but Mr. Buckley can explain it for the benefit of the committee.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Enniscorthy is at severe risk of flooding. We have been working for a long time, as the Deputy knows, to the frustration of the community, the council and everybody else because of the challenges faced there. We had a scheme ready to go in 2009 but it involved high walls along the side of the river, which is understandably unacceptable to the community, because while there is a danger to human life and property, there is a community living in the town and it is part of the infrastructure of the town.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Maurice Buckley

If I may complete the question, we started from scratch and developed an alternative scheme. That involved removing the Séamus Rafter bridge and building a new bridge outside town. From an environmental perspective, which is difficult territory, it involved deepening the riverbed. That riverbed has trace amounts of fresh oyster pearl mussels, lamprey and vegetation. This is always a subjective matter of opinion. We and our experts felt that this could be compensated and would restore two or three years after the work was done on the river. The experts used by the Minister in making the consent assessment came to a different conclusion. That can happen. The world is changing. We are totally focused on human life, properties and risk.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I accept that. I have one more question.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy made points about protecting the communities in Bridgetown and elsewhere. We have to balance that-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much did it cost to put that proposal forward?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The total planned budget for the scheme is €50 million. Mr. Casey is raising his hand and may have an answer about the cost of the proposal.

Mr. Jim Casey

The expenditure for Enniscorthy to date in 2022 is just under €150,000.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not what I am asking. I am asking about the proposal the OPW put forward that was rejected by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. How much did that cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

That is what Mr. Casey is answering.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That proposal had nothing to do with the flooding or damage. The proposal cost €150,000.

Mr. Jim Casey

All of the work up until that time cost €150,000.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does that include all the environmental studies and everything else?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Our time is short so I would appreciate succinct replies. I refer to the Convention Centre Dublin. It is not a place I want to go back to. We are happy to be here. We were happy to be accommodated at the time but I do not have fond memories of it.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General's report states, the Covid-19 pandemic was an unforeseen event. It also states that under the terms of the public private partnership agreement, there is provision for a modest reduction in the unitary charge payments when the number of international delegates falls below a minimum standard. I have a particular interest in one area, which is the bonuses paid in 2017, 2018 and 2019. Quite a substantial amount, totalling several hundred thousand, was paid. Was that paid to all eight directors? Was it equally shared?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I have no idea. We manage the contract. We have no responsibility for the internal operation and financial controls of the company involved.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The Convention Centre Dublin really only exists because of the unitary payment. That is the reality. Who has oversight of something like bonus payments? I found it quite difficult to understand why a bonus payment would be made at all. Where is the oversight of that?

Mr. Martin Bourke

As it is a public private partnership, the business affairs of the other party, which actually runs the Convention Centre Dublin, are not something that we become involved in. We cannot become involved in them. We oversee the conduct of the project agreement, which is a 250-page legal document which places a certain onus on people to run it in a particular manner, to have international conference delegates, ICDs, to have it open, and so on. Outside that, the matter of individual personnel, how it hires people and how it remunerates people is not something we can become involved in. It goes back to what the Comptroller and Auditor General said earlier. When the State brings in private sector people, they do business in their own way. How much they pay their own people and who they hire or dismiss is not something we can become involved in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will have to pursue this in a different direction. I find it extraordinary that bonuses would be paid.

I have asked on a number of occasions about Military Road and the facility there. I pass it reasonably regularly and keep a close eye on it. I know people have moved there. The provision there is less than would have been available in Harcourt Square. Have people completely decanted from Harcourt Square at this stage?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes. All the gardaí are out as of a week and a half ago.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. What is going on with Clyde House in Blanchardstown? I am trying to get an overview of how much this is actually costing. We have a rough idea of what the budget for Military Road was but it does not accommodate all the personnel. I want to see what other buildings are being brought into use. Presumably Clyde House is one of those buildings.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I am glad the Deputy asked because it leads to a clarification. Two things have been mixed up. There is an increase in Garda numbers and the other matter is Military Road. Military Road replaced in full the facility in Harcourt Square with regard to the number of people and space.

What happened, following us getting planning permission for the project in 2017-18, was that the new Garda Commissioner brought in a set of new bureaus-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I really do not have the time for this kind of reply.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

-----and that is what led to the larger quantum. The number of people who were in the Harcourt Square building was 900.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to know how many people were in Harcourt Square and how many have not been accommodated at Military Road. This is just about how much this has cost. Is Clyde House part of that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Clyde House is one of six other elements that are going there. I will explain the number. Some 860 to 900 people were in Harcourt Square. That number is now at Military Road, but all these other units that were set up and brought in under the new Garda plan will bring it up to about 1,400 additional people.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There was no future-proofing. Even the Garda Commissioner has said that, at this point, the Garda are under strength. It could be anticipated that as the population grows, services grow with that, including Garda numbers. Future-proofing something like these kind of buildings would have been key. I am trying to get-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We did that. We did 10% proofing but, if you look at it, the numbers have gone up by more than 50%. What has happened in the past week is that 10% of Garda members have been moved into new facilities in three weeks. Some of them relate directly to Harcourt Square but the others are from completely different units.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Where are those who were formerly in Harcourt Square accommodated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They were in-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

All those who were in Harcourt Square have not gone to Military Road.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Harcourt Square had spread out. For instance, people were in the old Kevin Street Garda station, which they will now vacate to move to Military Road. Some are moving to block J in Garda headquarters, which is a historic building that has been fixed up. They will be going there.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How much did the OPW spend on Garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I will have to check that. Off the top of my head-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. O'Connor come back to us on that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. O'Connor tell me about Clyde Road?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We are unhappy about Clyde Road. The-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the OPW unhappy about in terms of the cost of it?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

A property developer is there. What happened is that we are renting space for two Garda units. Part of the deal the developer who owns that property had with us was that in order for us to pay him, he had to make certain changes to two floors in the building. He has been behind time in doing that but the contingency we planned for has dealt with that. We have put the gardaí who would have gone to Clyde Road at the back of the building at 52 St. Stephen's Green, which we vacated a few months ago.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can we have a note on all of this-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----and on where people are being dispersed to? Is there enough car parking on the Military Road site? If not, how is that being accommodated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There are more than 225 car parking spaces, which is very significant. There is no other part of Dublin where that amount of car parking would be allowed to be built for a building of that size under the normal rules for car parking. What has happened and what gave rise to it is the way official cars are being used. That is not a thing for the OPW to-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are cars being fully accommodated on that site?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

All the official cars can be.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The phrase "official cars" piques my interest. What are we talking about in respect of unofficial cars?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That means people's own cars.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there an arrangement anywhere else?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We have looked at additional parking that the Garda has asked for. We have looked at that both at the adjoining site, which can take about 50 to 60 car parking spaces-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there a cost associated with that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, not for that. It is a matter of just giving that space over to them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is not in public ownership.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is, yes. It is part of the same site. We are at one end of the triangle. It runs right down to Heuston Station so it is the lower part of it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will ask about the cost of the demolition of the data centre that would have been just beside where the Military Road premises are now. What was the cost of demolishing that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

What would be the cost-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What was the cost? The OPW would have had to-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, we have not demolished it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is still there.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

That is important infrastructure so it is still in place. It did not have to be moved to facilitate Military Road.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We will build a new data centre at Backweston in County Kildare, which will allow that to be removed in time.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How did the Intreo office in Dublin 7 come about? I understand that gardaí are to be accommodated in that building, which was formerly an Intreo centre and will now be used for some of the-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will bring in Mr. Bourke on that point, from a property management perspective.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How did that come about? Did the OPW or the Garda identify the Intreo site? How did it happen?

Mr. Martin Bourke

The Intreo office was closed in anticipation of refurbishment of the office. The Department of Social Protection was operating very successfully out of two other locations while it was getting ready to see the office being refurbished, when the issue of accommodation for the Garda arose urgently. We had to look right around the portfolio to see how the Garda could be facilitated. The Intreo office on Navan Road was there and available. It also took official cars and was well located.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It was due to reopen for the Department of Social Protection-----

Mr. Martin Bourke

That was the original-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How did it come about that it was decided to use it? What was the context? Did the Garda approach the OPW? Was it costed? Was it evaluated?

Mr. Martin Bourke

In the context of a particular unit of the Garda needing a home urgently, we had to look right across the estate and discuss the number of options with the Garda. The Garda confirmed that if that Intreo office was made available, it would suit the purposes-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How much was spent on it?

Mr. Martin Bourke

How much was spent to move the Garda in?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Martin Bourke

It was minimal.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Little or nothing.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I can get the Deputy a figure but it was very small.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The refurbishment did not happen.

Mr. Martin Bourke

No, it did not.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

All the IT that was there was reused.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will make a point for clarification. In 2015, in the region of 600 gardaí occupied the Harcourt Square building. Future planning at that time was for 880 gardaí. Some 880 are accommodated at Military Road, which was brought in by Mr. O'Connor, Ms Edel Collins and the team, on time and on budget. It was a very satisfactory project.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was it €86 million?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The total budget was €86 million, which included the building cost and the fit-out. Approximately 600 gardaí, which is a very good thing for these very important national units that were added to the force in the intervening years, have also been accommodated through various measures that Mr. O'Connor outlined.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, offered Harcourt Square - it had been leased - to the OPW for the Garda. Since the Military Road premises had to be built and other Garda units had to be accommodated, in retrospect, was it very poor decision-making not to buy the Harcourt Square building, given all that had to happen since as regards moving the Garda, when the offer to buy it would have been more favourable because it was being bought from NAMA?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The contractor and people who were developing the Harcourt Square building are going to flatten it at the beginning of January. The reason is that the building has many problems. It dates from the 1960s, its layout is not suitable for anyone in modern-day terms and, from our point of view, it would have required such a deep retrofit that it would have cost as much as the new building. The new building on Military Road is an A2-standard building, whereas the Harcourt Square building is a level E. In energy cost and carbon footprint tax terms, it would be a noose around our necks to have it. In addition, Harcourt Square does not have specialist facilities. For instance, the Military Road premises has very specific things in the double basement that are particular to the execution of high-security work - I cannot say more than that - and that were not available to gardaí in Harcourt Square.

Chairman

Did the Military Road project come in on budget?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Chairman

It is good to hear that. We will suspend for just short of ten minutes. I ask people to co-operate, because we have a lot to get through. We do not want the witnesses to be here all day.

Sitting suspended at 11.09 a.m. and resumed at 11.24 a.m.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome our guests and wish them a happy Christmas. I will touch on flood relief schemes first. I have raised previously raised the Crossmolina flood relief scheme at this committee. Could Mr. Buckley give me an update regarding its current status and the timeline for this vital project for the community of Crossmolina?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy is correct. I know he has raised this issue on many occasions representing the community's anxiety regarding getting this done because there has been severe flooding in Crossmolina in the past. It is a big and innovative scheme involving €35 million that is doing things we have done previously. It has met various obstacles working its way through the process but it is in a very good place at the moment. I will ask Mr. Casey to give the Deputy the current position on the scheme.

Mr. Jim Casey

The scheme is with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for a decision on confirmation of the scheme. As part of this process, in July, the Department completed a public consultation on additional information. The Department is assessing this information as part of its overall assessment of the application for confirmation and the Minister will revert with a decision to confirm, refuse or request additional information, which is expected shortly.

Deputy Alan Dillon

When was the confirmation process sent to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and how long did that process take with regard to the consent process? The Department engaged with consultants to review any submission that was part of the consultation process but it is a number of months on since July and that consultation process has been completed.

Ms Marie Mulvihill

The second public consultation was completed in the summer. The submissions from that were sent to our independent environmental consultants. We continuously engage with them and they have completed their assessment of the submissions and are formalising and finalising their assessment of the overall scheme to make a recommendation to the Minister. This has not yet come to us from the consultants. When it does, it will be submitted to the Minister to either confirm, refuse or alter. We have yet to receive the final overall recommendation from the environmental consultants on the scheme. They review the submissions, examine the overall scheme and the environmental impact assessment report, and then make that recommendation to the Minister encompassing both.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the reason for the delay in the consultants submitting this? That has been going on for months.

Ms Marie Mulvihill

Initially they were looking at the different aspects of the submissions received under the consultation to see whether they were in line with the requirements of the regulation as prescribed to the Minister and his role and responsibility. To provide some context-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Have they given an indication of when they expect this to be delivered to the Minister's desk?

Ms Marie Mulvihill

We engage with them regularly and they have indicated that they hope shortly but I do not have-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

"Shortly" is not enough for the people I represent in Crossmolina. They are looking for a definitive timeline. Is it going to be January or February? Can we get some understanding regarding "shortly" because this project has seen delay after delay and there is considerable frustration among businesses and people. Ms Mulvihill must appreciate where they are coming from. This flooding happened in 2015 and it is seven years on from Christmas 2015. Every time I come in here looking for information, we are given generic responses in replies to parliamentary questions. Today, again, Ms Mulvihill has indicated that it will be done shortly. Can we get a definitive timeline?

Ms Marie Mulvihill

I do not have a definitive timeline that I can give to the Deputy now but we have been engaging with them as recently as this week and we hope to see a submission from them with a formal recommendation to the Minister early in the new year. I do not have anything more definitive than that at this stage.

Chairman

Given its importance because the risk of flooding is a serious issue, could Ms Mulvihill come back to Deputy Dillon within a week with an indicative timescale if she does not have a definite one? Is the Deputy happy with that?

Deputy Alan Dillon

That would be very helpful.

Ms Marie Mulvihill

I am happy to do that. Again, early in the new year is our hope but I will revert to the Deputy within a week.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In relation to the current flood relief schemes, has the OPW assessed the inflationary pressures surrounding projects that have been already committed to? What is the expectation into 2023 in terms of cost control and pressures that will come upon these projects?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Inflation is a huge issue for us all, but in the construction industry, in particular, it is enormous. As the Deputy may know, the price of concrete and structural steel has gone up significantly in the last while. This has impacted on all of our work, buildings and flood relief schemes. Mr. Casey just discussed with Deputy Colm Burke a scheme in Glashaboy in County Cork, where in the period between issuing the tender and awarding the contract, the contractor said it could not do the job for the price it had tendered because the prices had risen so much in the meantime, and we had to issue the tender again.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has the OPW updated many costs for capital projects to date?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will be updating all the costs as they get to the different stages in the Public Spending Code. We do a cost estimation at stage 2, ahead of going to tender, and at stage 3 again before the contract is awarded.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the percentage increase in costs the OPW is seeing across some of the major projects?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is huge. Perhaps Mr. O'Connor can comment on the percentage increase in general.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is around 10% to 15% across the board, and on multinational enterprise, MNE, work it is around 15% to 18%.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On the OPW's committed spend for 2023-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It looks like it will slow.

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----how much will that impact the budget?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We do not know. It would be a guess.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does the OPW not have an estimate?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

For our major projects, we are putting in a percentage that is slightly higher than the current figure, as we know it, to allow for that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What has the OPW committed to for major capital projects for 2023?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

All of our costings are done by quantity surveyors who work closely with the market expectation for construction. All the costings done since the middle of last year have increased the level of inflation that is calculated into the price. If a project is going to take three years to complete, the inflation will be calculated for each of those three years. That figure may rise and will be adjusted.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is there an inflationary clause within the contracts that have been signed with the approved suppliers?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No. The feature of the public works contract is that it is a fixed-price contract. The contractor takes on board all of the risk at the time it agrees the contract. Arrangements have been made with the Office of Government Procurement to give an allowance for inflation for contracts being placed.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is that limiting the number of approved suppliers tendering for contracts then, if the contracts are fixed-price contracts?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is definitely causing issues at the moment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is it causing specific delays with projects that are being put out to tender?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Glashaboy project would be a good example. I might refer to Mr. Casey, who can comment on the flood works side.

Mr. Jim Casey

In summary, we are experiencing increasing costs in flood risk management projects of anywhere between 5% and 20% on most services and supply contracts. It has not affected us significantly this year, but we expect it will be more of an issue next year and the year after perhaps. On the Glashaboy contract, it was a hyperinflation issue that necessitated the collapse of that tender process. In that sense it did cause very significant delays on that particular project.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I think a large part of the Crossmollina project will be direct labour through the OPW manpower, which will give us some protection against the inflation issue there.

Chairman

I wish to ask a question on modular housing. How many modular units is the OPW providing for areas it is scheduled to provide in in the current period?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We have been asked by Government to provide 500 rapid-build units for Ukrainian migrants. Indeed, we are now being approached by Government to provide an additional 200 and increase that figure to 700. It may even rise further. At the moment the commitment is to provide 500 units.

Chairman

What is the projected expenditure on the 700 units?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I might defer to Mr. O'Connor on the detail of that programme.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It will be in the order of €150 million.

Chairman

What is the cost per unit, roughly?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Some of that is sensitive information.

Chairman

I do not understand that.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There are five contractors supplying and they vary in cost by-----

Chairman

Are we talking about two-bedroom units or three-bedroom units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They are two-bedroom units.

Chairman

What is the price range? I know Mr. O'Connor has to be careful in answering the question, but I ask for some indication of that.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The range in the individual units is from €135,000 up to €155,000.

Chairman

That is a fairly wide range.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is. It is down to how well people are set up. The obvious would be why we do not go for the person who is the cheapest.

Chairman

From €35,000 to €150,000?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The problem is that the person who is the cheapest cannot deliver on the quantity of units required all at once. We need five suppliers to provide the quantity required.

Chairman

From €35,000 to €150,000?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The range is from €135,000 to €155,000.

Chairman

Sorry; apologies.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There is a divergence of €20,000.

Chairman

What is the lifespan of those units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Structurally, 60 years, or probably more.

Chairman

Okay.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I should also mention that they are designed completely in compliance with all the building regulations. People may be getting confused about the site layouts. The sites are laid out according to social housing standards. All the infrastructure of roads, parking, water and all of that is there as complete infrastructure.

Chairman

We will come to that in a minute. What is the energy rating of the units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They are A-rated.

Chairman

They are all A-rated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Chairman

Okay. How are the locations for the modular housing units chosen?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We have been given a list of a number of sites by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth goes through that list and determines which sites are appropriate from a social point of view and given other considerations they must take into account, such as ensuring there is back-up support for the people moving to those sites. We become involved in the technical assessment. I will be discreet here and say that there was an issue with a number of the sites we were offered, which were not quite the calibre of site we would look for. Some of the sites were very poor quality.

Chairman

Is it safe to assume the sites were selected by local authorities for housing?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, none of the sites we have been offered to date was chosen by local authorities for housing.

Chairman

From where is the supply of information to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage coming? Local authorities?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Local authorities and other public agencies.

Chairman

Obviously, we are in a situation where we have to help people who are genuinely fleeing war. However, if the units are located on sites and the layout is as per local authority specification, design and all of that, have there been discussions with local authorities in respect of after use? There is a substantial cost involved in delivering each unit. It is close to the cost of a new build. I accept that Mr. O'Connor has said about there being a 60-year lifespan for each unit. Have there been discussions with local authorities on after use?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The OPW provides the units. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth runs and looks after the units. Then a Government decision is made on what use they are put to. For instance, the units could be lifted out and sent to Ukraine or they could be moved elsewhere. They are a lift-and-plug type of unit.

Chairman

With the housing crisis here, we are going to need housing units. I do not want anything lifted anywhere, but I take Mr. Buckley's point. I do not think it is that easy to load the units onto the back of a truck and take them away either.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It can be done.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The sites that we are using are not sites that are designated for social housing development. They are marginal sites, which is challenging for the team. However, it means that we are developing sites and we are getting connections-----

Chairman

I am asking a straightforward and specific question.

Have there been discussions with local authorities regarding the use of these buildings for social and affordable housing afterwards, because the Office of Public Works, OPW, is one of the parties involved? I would like a "Yes" or a "No". Is Mr. O'Connor aware of any such discussions?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There has been discussion but it would be a decision for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That Department could ask the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage whether it wants these houses. All of the options are there.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

A very important point is that the sites Mr. O'Connor and the team are working on for the rapid-build homes are being designed in such a way that, if it is decided to remove the rapid-build homes, houses for social housing, such as terraced housing or three-bedroom semi-detached houses in the traditional style, could be put on the same sites. That element of the work, which accounts for quite a substantial portion of the €150 million, will be reusable and expand our social housing capacity.

Chairman

The view being taken does consider the future.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. It also considers value for money.

Chairman

Does the OPW have a role in choosing the locations? Obviously, Mr. O'Connor would keep an eye on their suitability from a technical point of view.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We would. For instance, some of the sites did not have a water supply from Irish Water and so there was no point in looking at them. Other sites-----

Chairman

The OPW does not look at the social aspect. It does not consider whether there are medical facilities in the locality, whether there is capacity in the local schools or whether there is public transport locally. Obviously the OPW will look at the infrastructural criteria such as whether the storm sewers and foul sewers have capacity, what the road infrastructure is like and whether the site is on a flood plain. That is the kind of stuff the OPW would look at.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes. We have looked at all of those. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has looked at elements regarding the schools and support systems.

Chairman

Does the OPW have a role in local consultation?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes. We have been to a number of the meetings at the request of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Chairman

I got letters about the site in Rathdowney in south Laois. The first I heard about it was when I saw it in one of the local newspapers. As a local Deputy, as soon as I had bought the paper, questions were coming into my office about it. It puts us in an awful position. I had to say to people straight up that I had only just learned about it having read about it in the local paper. While the OPW is not the sole decision maker in this and I understand that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has a role, there has to be some consultation at local level. Let me be clear; we have to try to help people who are genuinely fleeing war. I hope this war will be over as soon as possible. That is the hope of every sane person on the planet. There is no argument about that. There is capacity in the schools in Rathdowney but there are issues with some of the locations that have been chosen to date. I understand that, in ensuring quick response, perfection can sometimes be the enemy of progress. However, while I will not get into particular areas, some of the locations that have been chosen to date completely lacked the capacity needed and were not suitable for a whole plethora of reasons, rather than just one. There are six councillors in that district and, as far as I know, none of them were consulted. As a local Deputy, I had no answer for people. Nobody thought to lift the phone to us to tell us that such a field was bought and that such a thing was going to be done and to tell us the plan. Nobody sought an opinion or anything. There is a Government Minister of State in the constituency. I do not know if he knew.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The way it works is that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is responsible for communication with the local groupings. At its request, we go along to those meetings. I personally have been at six. One of my staff is actually down at a meeting in Cork as we speak.

Chairman

Will Mr. O'Connor raise this with the Department at the next meeting he attends? I know it is not primarily the OPW's responsibility and I intend to raise it with the Department, as Deputies in the Dáil already have. It needs to be raised with the Department.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is a very good point. We are aware of this issue and will feed it back. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is also aware. Deputy Dillon will know the site at Claremorris, which is an OPW site. It is proving very difficult in the time we have available. Rathdowney came through the process relatively recently. We have evaluated something like 73 sites in total around the country at this stage. Three quarters are not suitable for some reason or other. We are conscious all of the time of people sleeping in tents and the numbers coming in every day. It is very hard to balance that but we will pass the Chair's comments on to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Chairman

I understand that, which is why I prefaced my remarks in the way I did. Could I have a briefing note within a week? I believe that is a fair timeline. The note should cover the size of the site in Rathdowney, what exactly is planned for it and the timeline for locating the first group there and should include any other information Mr. Buckley feels would be helpful. At least we will then be up to date, even if we were not consulted in the first instance. However, we need to be consulted. We live in a democracy. Whether people like us or not, the 160 of us are elected. I have family roots in that town. I have no answers for people. I cannot tell people anything. I have no information. It is totally unacceptable. I do not mean this in any disrespectful way but I have often said to council officials at public meetings that officials go home at 5 p.m. but that does not stop people ringing our phones or buttonholing us when they next see us, at mass or somewhere else, and asking what we have to say about something, why we did not raise a certain issue or whether we even know what is going on. A number of people rang the office and I had to say that I had no idea and had read about it in the local paper. That is not acceptable. I take on board what the witnesses have said. Speed is an issue here and the OPW has to react quickly. However, I am sure Dáil Deputies would make themselves available to be met with two or three days' notice. I do not want to speak for other Deputies but I would certainly be willing to accommodate that.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I thank the witnesses very much for coming in today. I will go back to the discussion my colleague, Deputy Munster, was having with regard to the convention centre, the deductions and so on. Will the witnesses again talk me through the potential deduction from unitary payments in respect of the tenth, 11th and 12th payment years? What were the reasons for not withholding funds or progressing that as far as possible under the agreement?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I will respond first. I may bring Mr. Bourke in on the detail. We explained at the beginning that no decision has been taken yet. We are in dialogue with the convention centre and are getting advice from the various parties involved. As I am sure the Deputy will understand, we have a 30-year contract with the group and, until the issue is resolved and a decision taken and implemented, the contract carries on and we work it. If it is decided to reduce the payment for the years in question, that will be applied as soon as the decision is taken. There will be no loss to the State. It is a question of timing.

The bigger question is what decision we are going to make and what is the correct approach. Should that €1.5 million be deducted from the payment? The payments are very large. We are talking about over €20 million a year over a 30-year contract. This is an enormous project which covers the building, the maintenance and the operation of the building. We have to look at this in its totality. As I said earlier, the objective of the State is to successfully build up a convention business that brings tourism, and particularly overseas tourism and delegates, to the centre. The company in place was doing well and meeting the targets for business development until Covid hit. We can talk about the extent to which the risks of Covid should be taken or shared. The company is obviously concerned and it is now obvious that people will travel less for conventions, business meetings and so on.

However, surprisingly, the initial feedback is that the company has done quite well in restoring activity to the convention centre in the first period. We also have to take into account that the centre accommodated Dáil Éireann during those periods at no charge to the group. There are different factors involved. Something that might be interesting for Deputies to know and which has not really been in the public domain is that, a few years ago, we supported the operators in putting through a refinancing package for the overall operation. I believe I am correct in saying there was a saving to the State because of that, which is a separate matter.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Okay. As Mr. Buckley says, that is a separate matter.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is more complex.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I appreciate the totality of the contractual arrangement as such but it is important as well that the State take a strong position within all of the contracts that it is engaged in. From our perspective - over the past number of months we have been looking at broadband, the children's hospital and the national lottery - it is apparent that on the private side the operators take the most robust position available to them within every contractual arrangement and it is of interest what the State's overall approach is too. We would take the view, or certainly I would take the view, that the State should be at least as robust in its approach to the different contractual arrangements that it is engaged in in the public private partnership, PPP. When Mr. Buckley says that the OPW will get it resolved, it will make a decision and it will be resolved financially then, would he give me a sense of how long it is taking to make this decision?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Does Mr. Bourke want to come in there?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Yes. The issue with this one is that we are in a very unique situation with the convention centre. It is a situation that has never arisen before.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Sorry, I do not mean to cut across Mr. Bourke but I have very little time. Would he mind only answering how long it is taking?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Yes, sorry. I would envisage that by the end of the first quarter of next year - February-March of next year - we should have all the information and that should allow us position and conclude a conversation with the convention centre.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Therefore, it will be February-March next year. Will the decision be back over a two to three year window?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Do we not know what the outcome will be for that period?

Mr. Martin Bourke

We do not because there are divergent views, not with ourselves. We heard the Comptroller and Auditor General speaking earlier. He has a clear view on a contract. There are people who have the exact opposite view on that. For instance, the Department, which sponsors the convention centre and the whole project, has a view that no deductions should be applied.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

That is where the OPW comes in in terms of the management of the State's assets-----

Mr. Martin Bourke

Exactly.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

-----and the management of the contracts of those things. That is why it is so important that the OPW is robust in to the management of these contracts.

Mr. Martin Bourke

Absolutely.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

On a different matter, Mr. Buckley will be aware that I have tabled many parliamentary questions on the children's science museum, which is of ongoing interest to me. The OPW has gone through not one, but two mediations in relation to this. For the information of the committee, this was something that was agreed - I do not know by whom or how - over a decade ago. It was put on ice because of the financial crash. It was then essentially forced back on the agenda by the museum board. The OPW resisted it with mediation. It went away for a second reason I cannot recall. Then it came back on a second mediation, which was, I believe, concluded last year in a way that, it seemed to me, the OPW did not want to be concluded; it has now been forced to progress with a museum that was somebody's idea in 2007. I appreciate that the OPW has been forced to do this through the mediation. Can Mr. Buckley give me a sense of the legal costs involved in 2021 in relation to this mediation or over the two mediations, and how have we ended up in a situation where it appears the OPW is being forced to progress a science museum in the concert hall that does not appear to be necessary because there is a perfectly good functional one out in Sandyford that hundreds of thousands of children have visited over the past number of years? Hundreds of different schools have travelled there via the M50 from all over Ireland to visit. Could Mr. Buckley explain this to me?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Certainly. Starting with the point on costs, the costs for the recently concluded arbitration - there were two arbitrations involved - have not been finalised yet and I do not know what those costs will be.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Sometimes we ask if it is €1,000, €10,000 or €100,000. Approximately, what will it be?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I do not know. I imagine it will be expensive----

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Will it be somewhere between €1,000 and €100,000?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----but I do not know what the cost will be.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Can Mr. Buckley give any indication?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I cannot give the Deputy any indication. I am not a lawyer. I am not familiar with it. There were barristers aplenty-----

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

This is a cost for the OPW.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----in the room.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Sorry, there were barristers aplenty in the room who have not been setting fees and are not responsible for the paying of the fees. The OPW is responsible for paying its own legal fees. It must have some sense of the liability that it has incurred in legal fees through this process.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Our legal matters are managed by the Chief State Solicitor's Office, CSSO, and the Attorney General's, AG's office. They handle the appointment of barristers and are negotiating fees.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Are they paying the fees or is OPW paying the fees?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

They are paying fees.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Does it not come in to the OPW at all?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I am sure we will be involved but we have no part in managing the fees that are paid.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Okay.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Coming back on the general question, the Deputy made the point a moment ago of how important it is for the State bodies to be robust in dealing with contract partners. The Deputy is correct. Not a decade ago but two decades ago, the commitment was entered into to build a science museum by the OPW, on behalf of the then Government. The story went on from there, as the Deputy outlined. Quite simply, the OPW, in itself, taking a narrow view, has always recognised that we have a binding contract to build this facility. We also have a responsibility as a public body to try to ensure that it is successful, that all the outside circumstances are taken into account, and that we are supporting the broader Government policy and programme. We would certainly have attempted to make connections between the promoters of the Earlsfort Terrace project and the Sandyford science centre and, indeed, with the science gallery in Trinity - there are other developments there.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Indeed, there are.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The ultimate decision there is for the promoters. They have a contract and if they insist on that contract being fulfilled, that is their entitlement.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Who are the promoters?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is a charity company called the Irish children's museum limited, ICML. Initially, there were approximately 13 people involved. It is now down to five or six. Of the key people involved, the chairman is Mr. Michael Collins SC, a barrister. Dr. Danny O'Hare, the former president of DCU, has recently stepped down but he was very involved. He was the previous chairman. Ms Ali Hewson is involved. They were the main parties involved in the arbitration proceedings. There are three or four other people whose names I can supply to the Deputy, but it is on the public record.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I would be obliged if Mr. Buckley would.

The reason that this is so important is because when this was agreed initially there was no science museum in Ireland. There is an excellent science museum, which is not in my constituency. I have no connection to it. However, I have visited it, as have hundreds of thousands of other people. It received support all the way through Covid with the employment scheme and all of the different Covid schemes. Now there is a question about whether it reopens or not. I have no grá for any particular entity but I have a big difficulty with the State being obliged to build something that already exists. I do not understand the rationale for it. This is something that the Committee of Public Accounts, next year, they following year or the year after, will have to return to. This is something that the Comptroller and Auditor General will have to investigate thoroughly. I want it noted today that I do not understand how we can still be obliged to do something from 2007. I am glad to hear the OPW is approaching the matter with robustness. I was glad that it went through the two different arbitrations. I genuinely do not understand it. It will be a matter of note for the future, in particular, for the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Chairman

I am interested because I looked at this issue. Deputy Carroll MacNeill may know more about it than I do. From the information I got on it, what I am interested in is how we keep getting into these situations. The Deputy has mentioned the museum out in Sandyford. Was it located there ten years or so ago?

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Slightly less, but it is perfectly good.

Chairman

Who owns that building?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is privately owned.

Chairman

What is wrong with it? Why have we to move from there?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is a separate development. It is a science museum developed and operated by a private entity. It is nothing to do with the State, as far as I am aware.

Chairman

It is operated privately. In relation to this issue of why we are tied into the contract since 2007, when did the State become entangled in this that we could not reverse out of it? Can anybody shed light on that?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

At that time, around 2000, as the Chairman will recall, we were desperately trying to increase the profile of science and attract people into science and engineering education, and that is where the commitment stems from.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

A contract.

Chairman

No, we are tied up in a contract here. That is why I am anxious to find out at what point we got tied up. In what year did we get tied up in this contract that we could not go into reverse gear?

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

In 2007.

Chairman

Was it 2007?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The date of the original contract was 2003.

Chairman

Have we any control? Is the State tied in by contract to the location and price or price range at this stage?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes, as a result of various legal proceedings. Unfortunately, it went down the legal route. The project has many merits and so on but it would be beneficial to tie in other players and have an holistic view.

Chairman

What is the location?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The location is the north wing of Earlsfort Terrace. That is one aspect that is helpful. Earlsfort Terrace is a very important historic building. It was the exhibition building back in the 1800s. It is in a very bad state of repair. People will know the National Concert Hall on the south side of the building. The Government has just approved a major investment in that. However, the other half of the building will need major investment over the next decade in any case to repair it. That offsets to some extent but does not fully answer the questions and concerns raised. However, it is important.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

It is a matter of considerable concern at this point. We have now spent ten years on this. The OPW, in fairness, has tried to resist having to progress this, recognising the changing circumstances. There is a private entity that fulfils the function from the perspective of the State. Regarding the scale of the build-out and the fit-out costs, I have never seen a business case. I am not sure whether one exists within the OPW.

Chairman

We will get an answer to that. Does a business case exist?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Before the current arbitration, we were working with the promoters to develop a business case. This has to be financed. It is certainly to the benefit of the group, which will require further subsidy from the Government to operate the centre, develop a business case, carry out a cost–benefit analysis and go through the public spending code. That process was under way in 2018 and 2019, but was never brought forward. At a particular point in time, the promoters decided "No" and took the arbitration route.

Chairman

It is very unsatisfactory that they were tied into this.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I apologise for being late. I want clarification on the Convention Centre Dublin and the payment of €1.3 million. Is the OPW obliged to pay that money?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No.

Deputy Matt Carthy

So it is not obliged but is going to pay that money anyway.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The contract puts the risk on the operator, as all PPPs do. All around the world, including Europe, during the two years of the Covid period, there has been a debate on whether Covid and the restrictions on international travel are classed as a business risk or relate to force majeure circumstances, being outside the normal circumstances. We are cognisant of that. The operators will argue and have argued that Covid is something exceptional that they could not have been expected to anticipate. We are going through the process at the moment. A decision has not been taken. There are pros and cons. We are looking at the financial aspect of the contract and the reduction in sums. As Accounting Officer for the overall project, I have to look at its outcome, which entails a huge building, a huge facility and the potential, or otherwise, to raise tourism numbers related to international business delegate tourism in Dublin. That was the original idea. I know hotel space is chock-a-block at the moment, but, over a 30-year timeframe, the idea is that the convention business would add significantly to Dublin as a city and tourism in Dublin.

Ultimately, it is a question of whether the operators will deliver on a thriving business when it is handed back to the State in 13 years. That is an important consideration for the committee also. Right now, we are looking precisely at the contractual terms and the management of risk in a PPP contract. I know the process has taken a little time but we have 13 years and will resolve this. Whatever decision we reach will be applied to the contract within that period.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Buckley answered the question I asked in his first five seconds, which was that the OPW is not under obligation to pay €1.3 million. He subsequently answered my second question, which was whether the OPW is genuinely considering spending €1.3 million of public money when it does not have to. His answer is that the OPW is actively considering it.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We have not taken a decision not to, for sure.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Why not?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

First, we have to make sure we would not create a situation where the operators would have a valid claim against the contract, ending up with further arbitration and legal proceedings that cost money.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Buckley just acknowledged there is no obligation on the OPW to pay. How could it possibly be, therefore, that the contractor would have a case?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I think the basis would be that Covid-19 and restrictions on international travel were outside any possible control or anticipation by the operator. We will have to be cognisant of the circumstances. It is the only PPP project of this magnitude in Ireland. There would be other situations around Europe-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

We are aware of many cases in which there is an obligation on the State to hand over money. Sometimes there would be questions at this committee and elsewhere as to the rational basis for it. We would be told consistently that if there is a legal obligation to pay a sum of money, regardless of what it is, it has to be paid, almost aside from anything else.

Could the Comptroller and Auditor General give a view on whether Covid provides a context for State bodies to pay to private contractors money that they are not obliged to pay?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think there may be an element of policy in that, but, in terms of the contract, it seems to me that this is an overpayment. It is a non-contractual payment. The figure over the three years, for the record, would be €1.5 million. An analogy concerns when traffic collapsed as a result of Covid. At that time, additional payments had to be made by the State because tolls coming into the companies were not at the threshold level.

Deputy Matt Carthy

That is because the contract stipulated those levels.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Exactly. Therefore, there are these risks. In risk-sharing in PPPs and so on, a distinction is made between general risks, such as those associated with tax going up across the board, and a specific policy change or Government change directed at a specific project. This is a general risk and there is force majeure clause in the contract, but it does not refer to medical emergencies. It does not make an exclusion in relation to something like a pandemic. It was a general risk that was being carried by the company. The overall projected receipt by the company over the 35 years is currently over €760 million.

Deputy Matt Carthy

These guys are not scraping for a few bob.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I would have thought not. I draw attention to overpayments in social protection every year. It is incumbent on me in a situation like this, where there are companies that can fight well, to do as I do. There is nothing wrong with the company asking not to have to meet this deduction. It is perfectly entitled to ask but it seems to me that the State is perfectly entitled to say "No".

Deputy Matt Carthy

Will the State say "No"?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There is a process in train and we will make a decision on that. There are other options open to us. Perhaps the company could be incentivised to build up the business further in order to avoid this-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was the company in a position to avail of all the business supports that every other business availed of? I am referring to the temporary wage subsidy scheme and other supports that were in place during the Covid pandemic.

Mr. Martin Bourke

It could have availed of those but I understand it did not.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Regardless, it was open to it to do so. We are suggesting that the company, singularly, is in a position to have a payment made to it by the State simply because it had the benefit of being in a contract with the OPW.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No, the State has an opportunity not to make this performance payment for the years in question if it chooses to do so, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has outlined. We are listening to the case the operator is making. In fairness, it has not drawn down the supports.

Mr. Martin Bourke

There are a number of divergent views as to what should happen with regard to the deduction, and they have not bottomed out yet. The Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

I apologise for interrupting but are there divergent views within the OPW or the Department?

Mr. Martin Bourke

There are not.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Where are there divergent views?

Mr. Martin Bourke

As I said earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General has a particular view, to which he is absolutely entitled. However, for instance, the sponsors of this whole project, the convention centre, is the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. The Department is of the view-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Is it of the view that we should pay it?

Mr. Martin Bourke

-----that no deduction should be made.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Is the Department of the view that we should be handing over €1.5 million?

Mr. Martin Bourke

That is its view.

Deputy Matt Carthy

We are now being told that we are not obliged to do so.

Mr. Martin Bourke

There are divergent views in that respect. I can appreciate that the Comptroller and Auditor General has a particular view but there are legal advices involved. EUROSTAT will be asked for its views. The Department has a view. It is all very finely balanced. We are going to have to arbitrate on the issue and that is taking time. No final decision has been made.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Who will make the final decision?

Mr. Martin Bourke

It will be the OPW. However, if the deduction is not permitted or we suggest anything should be waived, sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will be required.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Is that Department represented at the meeting? Do the officials envisage any scenario whereby the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform would approve a State body spending €1.5 million it did not need to spend?

Ms Marie Mulvihill

We have not received any material or submission from the OPW on this issue. I would like to get the full material that has been referred to so we can ensure an informed decision will be made that reflects all the legal advice and the position of EUROSTAT.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I do not know how these things work but would it not be a good idea, when everybody is being asked their opinion, to go to the people who will be involved in the final sign-off and ask them whether we are wasting our time and whether there is any chance this will be signed off upon?

Mr. Martin Bourke

That is exactly the process in which we will engage. However, there is only a requirement to go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform if we are minded to waive the deduction. That is where the sanction comes in. If we are enforcing the deduction, it is then business as usual.

Deputy Matt Carthy

What timeline does Mr. Bourke envisage for the OPW to decide whether it is minded to-----

Mr. Martin Bourke

I suspect we will be in a position to have this bottomed out in February or March.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Surely the OPW considers this situation advantageous. This is one of few situations in which a State body can have the views of the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General before a financial transaction is made. The OPW will not have to risk the prospect of negative reports or comments on its audit. It will not have to take the risk that the committee will retrospectively state that it is crazy that the OPW would even contemplate paying €1.5 million when it does not need to. The OPW now has advance warning of that, which is advantageous for its decision-making process.

Mr. Martin Bourke

We always appreciate the input of the committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General on these matters. However, we also have to take other advice.

Chairman

The next move is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Mr. Martin Bourke

EUROSTAT has to give its views and then we will involve the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We will obviously brief the Department.

Chairman

It would fall to the Department to write the cheque.

Ms Marie Mulvihill

Sanction must be provided.

Chairman

Ms Mulvihill has not received the documentation.

Mr. Martin Bourke

She has not. We are happy to brief the Department but it would be premature at this stage. It depends on whether we have to get sanction.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Bourke to keep us up to date in that regard.

Mr. Martin Bourke

We absolutely will.

Chairman

I will allow members to come back in. We might have a latecomer to the meeting who will need to be provided for. Deputy Hourigan has four minutes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I have two questions to get through in that time.

Chairman

Does Deputy Verona Murphy need to go first because of her Dáil duties?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Deputy can go ahead.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will ask Ms Collier about Duncannon Fort. This week, €500,000 from the town and village renewal scheme was granted in the Vote. What is the proposal from the OPW? Strictly speaking, that €500,000 is to reinstate the building, which has experienced deterioration in recent years. We heard in March that the old Garda station in Wexford may be repurposed. I thought the site was being sold. In respect of how we spend our money, many of these things seem like closing the door when the horse has bolted. Everything we spend afterwards costs twice as much because of the deterioration in the interim. Where are those two projects at? I think the fort may fall under the remit of Ms Collier.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I thank the Deputy. Duncannon Fort is privately owned and in guardianship. It is, therefore, in the care of the OPW. We did not make the application to the rural scheme so I am not familiar with what the money has been granted for. I would be interested to find out more. I presume the local authority made the application.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is the case.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We will engage with the local authority to find out what was proposed as part of the scheme.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Will Ms Collier come back to me on her interaction in that regard?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I will.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Ms Collier said the fort is in private ownership.

Ms Rosemary Collier

The legal right to own a number of national monuments has been retained by their private owners but they were designated national monuments and given the protection of that status. They are, therefore, cared for by the OPW. There are number of such monuments nationwide and Duncannon Fort is one.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What does Ms Collier mean by "privately owned"? Is it owned by a private individual?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Yes. It is usually a private landowner and invariably a farmer.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Such a person owns the fort?

Ms Rosemary Collier

That is the case. There are a number of such arrangements. They are largely unmanned sites that are inaccessible to the public. They are usually in the centre of somebody's farm holding or private lands. They are sufficiently important from a national and international perspective as a piece of our national heritage and, under legislation, are afforded the protection of national monument status.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That €500,000 is a lot of money but it is still nothing in comparison with what is required if we are to give value for money. Perhaps Ms Collier would come back to me on that point. I also asked about the Garda station in Wexford.

Mr. Martin Bourke

Our plan is to sell the Garda station site at a public auction at the start of next year. We had been planning that but were asked generally to hold off on any disposals in the context of the Ukraine situation to see if anything would need to be repurposed. That was the right approach to take. The Garda station, however, was deemed unsuitable.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That said, the Garda station has been empty since 2018.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I appreciate that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

While appreciating it, Mr. Bourke must also appreciate the deterioration in the building structure, inside and outside, and its current value compared with when it might have been sold. How does it arise that we have a newly built, state-of-the-art Garda station that is not big enough, three years after its completion? How did that happen? It is being reported in Wexford that an extension is required to a building that is approximately four times as big as the building that was previously in use. Three years later, an extension is required.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I am sure that is a part of overall Garda planning that will come to us in due course if a project is designated. I am not aware of one at the moment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Mr. Buckley mean a project for a new Garda station? Does Mr. O'Connor wish to come in?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

What the Deputy has said is news to us. I deal with the Garda on a monthly basis and have heard no such comments about the station in Wexford.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is what has been reported in the newspapers incorrect?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I do not know. I have not seen the coverage.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Nobody in Wexford Garda station has asked for an extension.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That has not formally been requested.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will have to set that record straight. It has been widely reported that less than three years after the Garda station has been built, it is not big enough.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We work for the Garda and with the Garda Commissioner, and with the estate unit centrally.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Perhaps for the benefit of the committee, the officials could submit in the next week or so how many buildings we have on the books that should be sold, how long they have been on the books and an assessment as to whether they can be repurposed. It is always better to reuse than to build, particularly in this day and age. Perhaps they could make that submission to the committee. It might also include the energy ratings of the buildings.

Chairman

The rating would be very low in respect of some of those buildings.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We established during a previous interaction that the OPW is responsible for flood prevention in the State. Is the organisation telling State bodies to stop building and buying in flood-endangered areas? Is it actively advising the HSE and local authorities to stop doing that?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is national policy. We provide all the information-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is not what I asked. Mr. Buckley said earlier that the OPW's interactions with local authorities are ongoing and regular. Is the OPW actively telling local authorities not to do that?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We contribute to development plans and provide advice.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Where advice is ignored, what is the OPW doing?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Has the Deputy something particular in mind? I am not aware of such a situation.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

At a recent committee meeting, we discussed the HSE buying an existing home for long-term residential care that flooded in the past 18 months.

I am aware of a development of 2,500 units just outside Midleton. Midleton has flooded significantly on ten occasions since 1993 and, yet, 2,500 units are being built at Water Rock. There is irony to the name. I am trying to get to the bottom of whether the OPW is actively engaged. Every person in this room who represents a constituency could point to the construction or purchase of buildings that have been flooded. I am trying to understand the interaction of the OPW - the agency responsible - in this regard.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There have been guidelines in place since 2009, namely, The Planning System and Flood Risk Management. These guidelines set out how all planning authorities and public bodies need to interact with planning and take flooding considerations into account. The guidelines are in place, and we work with the various bodies in the context of them.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Are the bodies involved working on the basis of information and numbers from 2009?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No. We work on the basis of our continually updated flood mapping and flood modelling.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The sea level in Cork is rising at twice the global rate. When it comes to Cork in particular-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy is preaching to the converted. We are extremely concerned about the impacts of climate-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We are still seeing buildings being zoned and developed in areas that we know will flood.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy would have to refer to particular instances. Perhaps Mr. Casey wants to come in here on how it is managed. I am not aware of particular instances.

Mr. Jim Casey

In the context of the Deputy's point on the updating of risk levels since 2009, the OPW publishes updated flood risk maps. Last year, we published an updated set of national coastal and fluvial risk maps, taking account of more recent information.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can I stop Mr. Casey there because I am running out of time. Let us take the example of the HSE. I am not talking about a specific building, but about public money that is being used to purchase sites that we know will definitely be flooded. There may be a modern building, but it will be flooded. Is the OPW reaching out to groups or organisations, such as the HSE, that are funded directly by the State to tell them to please not purchase properties, whether they are needed or not, in areas where we know there will be flooding?

Mr. Jim Casey

It is not the role of the OPW to get in that space of planning.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Why is it not the OPW's role?

Mr. Jim Casey

We engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on this. The OPW will use forward planning documents, including the national planning framework, the regional spatial and economic strategies and local areas plans and give advice on that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I take Mr. Casey's point, but I want to get in one final question before the end of my time. I am very sorry to cut across-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is important to point out that the OPW has no responsibility to police the activities of other public bodies.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am not suggesting it should police them. I did not use the word "police". I am asking if the OPW is reaching out and informing people on what is the correct thing to do.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes, we are.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I know I am out of time, but I want to ask for an updated figure. We talked about this when the OPW was before the committee previously. We are aware that €560 million has been spent on flood works since 2016. I am just looking for an updated figure for the next ten years.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The overall expenditure over the next ten years will be €1.3 billion, apart from the national development-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is a similar figure to the one we had the last time the OPW was here. Obviously, there have been massive levels of construction inflation. Considering the cost of concrete, I am of the view that 20% is going to be a conservative figure in the long term. Are we building 20% fewer flood defences or will we increase the €1.3 billion figure by 20%?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Deputy will find that the national development plan for everything, including flood relief, will have to be reviewed. At that stage, the impact of inflation will be taken into account. For the moment-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

When will that be happening?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I am not sure of the position in that regard. I am not sure if a date has been set for the review of the plan. For the moment, we are working within that envelope. It is not having an impact; we are drawing down earlier from that envelope because of inflation and as schemes go forward. That will have to be taken into account, and not that alone as the much bigger issue for us is the whole wider issue of adapting to climate change and what additional investment will be needed due to sea level rise.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I know I am over time, but I have a final question. What percentage of that current figure is coastal flood defence?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Perhaps Mr. Casey will have an estimate of that.

Mr. Jim Casey

I do not have a breakdown of that but-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is it possible to get that?

Mr. Jim Casey

To come back to the Deputy's earlier question, we are targeting €100 million per annum over the next seven or so years. There is provision for that in the national development plan to the end of the decade.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have a couple of comments on the Convention Centre Dublin. I get the impression, not just from the witnesses but also from others who have been before us, that there is a culture of fear in the public service, and that this is known by people who do business. It is almost like a reverse socialism. There is a fearlessness among those people. We see it, for example, in the context of the children's hospital with the number of claims being made. We are also seeing it with regard to the Convention Centre Dublin. The convention centre paid more out than €40 million in dividends in 2020 and 2021. The figures were €31 million in 2020 and €8 million in 2021. There was an impairment with regard to the accounts in 2021, and yet bonuses were paid. The OPW has stated it does not have a direct involvement in that. Why is that not all considered in a very robust way when the OPW is dealing with matters such as this?

Because I have so little time, I want to return to the issue of Military Road and An Garda Síochána. Mr. Buckley made reference to 600 personnel. That is a very different figure to the one we were given previously. In 2016, the OPW was informed that the capacity was greater than 1,000. The actual figure was 1,090. The number of gardaí we are talking about matters in the context of the accommodation requirements. There are arguments that the open-plan design at Military Road is not ideal for some of the very sensitive matters with which gardaí will be dealing in that building. I will leave that aside, however. In addition to the Military Road build, there are also: Clyde House; the traffic centre at Heuston Station; the annual lease on the Phoenix House at Conyngham Road; the capital costs of the Phoenix Park building; and the Navan Road. Even though there is no building at the Navan Road site, we cannot bring people from a divisional station to somewhere else without a cost. It seems that by reducing the number to 600, which is a different number from the one we were dealing with, it minimises the cost of the move from the Harcourt Square building.

It does not improve our carbon footprint to be levelling a building and replacing it. In fact, it is the reverse. I would be concerned about the culture of seeing this as a positive. I want a list of the actual costs of all of these buildings. I want go back to the figure given in 2016 of 1,090 gardaí and I want to know how they will be accommodated.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I am happy to do that. To clarify again, the figure of 600 staff was the number actively using Harcourt Square in 2015.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On the basis of the OPW's figures and as Mr. Buckley stated previously, that was 800 in 2015.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I explained to the committee that this was the planned figure, taking account of future growth, which the committee had asked me about. I explained that the Military Road premises, now Walter Scott House, was designed for 880 staff, which was the projection at that time for what was needed. A budget of €86 million was allocated to the Department of Justice and the project was initiated. The project has now been delivered, on time and on budget. The number of gardaí has grown in the meantime, which is a positive thing, to something in the region of 1,400 as opposed to 800.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It was a lack of future-proofing.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The numbers of gardaí we have is a matter for the State. We are responding to the fact that extra gardaí were recruited, and I believe that we found a solution.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It will obviously cost more for locations that are occupied, but, as Mr. O'Connor explained earlier, there are two distinct things to consider. First, there is the Military Road project to replace the planned figures given to us at the project brief, and which has been done, and, second, there is the expansion in Garda numbers. We have had to accommodate the latter at very short notice, and we have done that. Crime has developed and there are new forms of economic crime are involved.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Do we know what is the cost of the lease on Clyde House?

Do we know what the lease is on Phoenix House on Conyngham Road? These are all part of the same group.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

They are all part of the same group. The best thing to do, and we would be happy to do it, is to provide a table setting out the different projects and the numbers.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did Mr. Buckley bring those figures with him today?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We could probably give them to the Deputy individually but, as she said, there are so many different moving parts in this, it is probably better to set it out properly. If there is any particular point she wants to check, I am sure we can get the figure for her very quickly.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Buckley also needs to talk to us about the numbers and how those have changed since 2015. The figures given previously need to be checked when that table is being given because in the case of Military Road the figure keeps moving and reducing. It is causing confusion more than anything else. I want to know the totality of the cost of accommodation and whether the building is deemed to be absolutely safe. Some security modifications were also made to the building. I presume that cost was included in the final cost.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will provide all that information to the Deputy.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

On that issue, there were no modifications made to the security. The building is built as it was signed off by the Garda Síochána three years ago.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

Chairman

We will have a final round of questions and see how we go. I will ask about the value-for-money report, which dealt with a number of properties and the issue of whether to buy or lease. It was an interesting report which came out about eight weeks ago. I read it at the time. It made the point that leasing makes sense in the short and medium term. We cannot go out and buy hundreds of buildings tomorrow morning because the pounds, shillings and pence are not there. The upfront cost is an issue. However, where a Department or Government body needs a building for more than 20 years, the option of building or buying needs to be seriously considered. Will Mr. Buckley respond to that? The report found that the savings in some cases could be as much as 39%. The review found that a saving of €216 million for the State could potentially be achieved across just five buildings if they were built or bought as opposed to being leased. The OPW has obviously studied the report. Does it have plans to try to incrementally increase the number of buildings which are bought or owned as opposed to long-term leasing?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We were a major party to the writing of that report so it is very important information, which we are following through on in every way we can. I will bring in Mr. Bourke who, along with Mr. Pat Fitzsimons, was very central to this work.

Mr. Martin Bourke

We were the main authors of the report with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It probably came as no surprise, as the Chair has said, that once a period of 20 years has passed, there is profit in an owned building whereas in a leased building, if you were to cut and run after 20 years, there is no asset left and the holder is just walking away from a lease. What we always try to do in the estate and the overall portfolio is have an appropriate balance between owned and leased buildings. Commentators sometimes say that everything should be owned but we would not hold with that and nor would most jurisdictions would. A balance is needed so that you can scale up or down depending on what is happening at the time. For instance, at the time of the rationalisation in 2008 and 2009, we rationalised out of many leased properties.

Chairman

I understand that and saw it in the briefing note but what I am referring to here is that across five buildings, the potential saving could have been €216 million. I know Mr. Bourke was involved in writing the report with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The report stated that in just one of those buildings, we will spend €102 million more to rent it than if we purchased a similar sized building for €63 million, which is a saving of 38%. I understand contracts are signed and the OPW cannot walk away from them at the drop of a hat. It is grand having reports and this is a wonderful country altogether for doing reports - we could fill Leinster House with them - but in terms of action on the back of these reports, what is now being done?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Very specifically, when funding is available and there is a demand for accommodation, we will actively consider either building or building if the timescale allows for it. Building is the preference. At the moment, we have two major building projects ongoing. One is Tom Johnson House, which is a major retrofit refurbishment, and the second is a complete new build in Leeson Lane. Both of those will take pressure off the leased buildings.

Chairman

Has this been discussed with Mr. Buckley's line Minister, the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, Deputy O'Donovan?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes, it is a point of policy that the Minister of State would regularly run past us and how we can go about getting to a situation where we are in a position to build more often. Buying is very difficult in the public sector because of the large lump sum expenditure involved in a single purchase and it is not profiled. Much of it has to do with forecasting numbers and demand. This report is going to sharpen this debate, as the Chair correctly said.

Chairman

From the point of view of the Committee of Public Accounts, if we can buy, as Mr. Buckley correctly pointed out, we have an asset. It is the same with housing. I know we cannot go out and do it tomorrow morning at the drop of a hat. I understand that but we can see that most of these Departments and bodies are not going away. They will be needed long after we are no longer around.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

No, and we can interleave that with the current work of the office of the future and the impact remote working will have on the estate. We have asked all Departments to come back with advice on what they can do to reduce their space requirement. We may have the opportunity of releasing some leased buildings or of disposing of some energy inefficient owned buildings. We will have the opportunity in the next while to readdress that balance somewhat.

Chairman

I do not want to take up more time but I have a few questions I want to ask Mr. O'Connor about the Garda station in Portlaoise and the UN veterans' part of that. I thank the OPW for getting back to me on the issue. I will ask my questions after the meeting.

On parklands and so forth, we are lucky in County Laois to have Heywood Gardens and Emo Court. The staff and management deserve top marks for looking after those. They are great facilities. I have an interest in the biodiversity in these sites. Deputy Hourigan has left has an interest in this too. Money is being spent clearing out the forest floors and much of the natural vegetation in these sites, which butchers habitats and causes a loss of biodiversity and wildlife. These are hugely important amenities and carbon sinks. Who is giving the directions to bulldoze the forest floors in some of those sites? Is the person responsible present? I am saying this as somebody who uses these sites. This is not sought by members of the public who enjoy the wildlife. This was not getting in the way of anyone walking around. There was no safety issues because these are areas on which people do not walk. For some reason, people see that whole areas have been cleared out. Can any of the witnesses or those present in the Public Gallery tell me who is giving the direction to do this or making the decision?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I can probably answer that. The bulk of the woodlands around Emo Court are in the ownership of Coillte. We have no ownership over the bulk of the walking ground on the outer rim of the estate.

Chairman

I am talking about the OPW's part of the land, including in Heywood Gardens.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I just wanted to clarify that. We have an expert parks team who specialise in looking after historic design landscapes. There is a scheme for managing those sites throughout the seasons. Grasslands are allowed to grow very long during the summertime and we have a whole approach to managing biodiversity at those sites. I assure the Chair of that.

There is a practice in the autumn to deal with cases of fallen debris and doing clear-ups in the woodlands during the winter. That allows for type of regrowth and habitat management in the spring and summer seasons. That is a kind of cycle at work.

Chairman

We are in a biodiversity crisis. It has been declared. There is also a cost involved. I preface this by complimenting the staff for managing both of those facilities. They are wonderful. We are blessed with them. I do not want to go into a whole debate on this but I ask the witnesses to go back and look at this again because one part of the Government does not seem to be telling the other part what it is doing. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is saying this has to be sorted out. Most people have accepted that we have to address the biodiversity crisis. These are carbon sinks. They are huge habitats and they manage themselves. We do not need to be going in with machinery and ploughing up the whole place.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I reassure the Chairman that we have a biodiversity strategy, which was launched this year. We are undertaking a very detailed biodiversity audit at Emo Court in particular this year, which should be completed-----

Chairman

We cannot manage it if we bulldoze it out of the way.

Ms Rosemary Collier

No but we are taking very specific actions that are biodiversity-related. We have won all Ireland pollinator awards in the Phoenix Park and in Castletown-----

Chairman

That is fine but wiping out hundreds of acres of natural vegetation and woodland floors does not make sense. Where is the wildlife gone? The wildlife has gone in places.

Ms Rosemary Collier

There would not be hundreds of acres in our care at Emo Court. The bulk of that would be in the care of Coillte.

Chairman

There is a nice bit in Heywood. I ask that the OPW-----

Ms Rosemary Collier

Again, that is Coillte.

Chairman

-----start being more cognisant of this. We do not seem to have joined-up thinking on this. We have gone in and just levelled all of this. There is no demand for it.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I am not aware of that kind of practice in the areas that we manage. I suspect it is in-----

Chairman

There are huge patches gone out of it.

Ms Rosemary Collier

-----the areas that are not under our control.

Chairman

It is totally unnecessary.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will get the detail on that. It does sound completely inconsistent with the whole policy we have here.

Chairman

I also ask the OPW to address what it is doing to join up the dots. I do not want to be hard on the witnesses over this but we are moving into a new space.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We will send the committee a note.

Chairman

There is a biodiversity crisis. There is a cost involved. The environmental cost is the biggest cost. These are important habitats and important carbon sinks. It is important that we preserve them. I would give the OPW ten out of ten for all the good work that has been done there. I do not want to just focus on that. I acknowledge that these sites are kept spectacularly. That is the only word I can use. I will allow Deputies back in if they have a final question.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I have one question for the Accounting Officer. How much capital has the OPW surrendered to the Exchequer in 2021 and 2022?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The Comptroller and Auditor General outlined this at the beginning and I referenced our appropriation account as well. In 2021, we surrendered €19.7 million back to the Exchequer. We will have a small surrender again in 2022.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Buckley have that figure for 2022?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will get it now while we are talking. That primarily reflects the issues we spoke about before on the flood risk side with the immense challenge of driving through large environmentally sensitive projects in river basins in different areas.

Deputy Alan Dillon

That relates to my second question. Was that €20 million reappropriated? If not, why?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

With the permission of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Government, we would have moved as much of the shortfall as possible between our subheads, between the flood risk side and the estate side, in both 2021 and in 2022. With regard to any money we surrendered back to the Exchequer, it is not something any Accounting Officer does-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

The OPW is committing to €100 million a year for flood management and surrendered €20 million in 2020, 2021 and now 2022. For the last three years it has had a trend of an underspend of €20 million per year. It that not concerning in terms of its budgetary estimates?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Absolutely. How we are responding to that is by ramping up, in a major way, the number of schemes we are putting into the system, designing and getting started. A couple of years ago there would have been 30 schemes running in parallel.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What measures will the OPW put in place in 2023 so it will not have a surplus or surrender? Have any control measures been put in place to alleviate this?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There are a couple of things. As I said, we have greatly increased and are running at capacity internally. More of a constraint is the capacity in the market in Ireland of expert environmentalists and designers to develop these schemes. We have ramped up, to the greatest extent possible, with a view to recovering in later years the shortfall in these years so we will get the total spent back on track. We are also-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

That is €60 million over the past three years that the OPW has had to surrender back to the Exchequer.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I appreciate that that is a significant amount. We will increase capacity to get up that level and beyond. Some factors are outside of our control and the Deputy is aware of them. The Chairman will be aware of the issues in Mountmellick and other places and the level of difficulty involved. We spoke about Enniscorthy earlier-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

There should be reappropriation measures put in place in order for that money to be spent, either in estate management, heritage or other areas of prioritisation. It has been allocated to the Department and not been spent. That is concerning.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

It is one of the issues with annual accounting. It is very hard to budget for large capital projects like this with five or six years' duration except in a multi-annual accounting environment. In fairness, the Government is trying to move more and more to that model. As it is at the moment, we must manage as best we can within that programme. We are very concerned about the underspend. We are trying to address the issues involved. We are engaging more and earlier with environmental groups to try to stave off judicial reviews and other issues that cause us huge delays. Getting past the planning stage is the single biggest challenge for us at the moment. We take some of that on our own shoulders. We believe we are very environmentally conscious in how we approach flood risk management. We need to increase that. We need to improve our communication. We need to get involved earlier. We are doing all of these things. To answer the Deputy's earlier question, in 2022 we have applied for a carry-forward of 10% into 2023. There may be a small return over and above that but we will not know until the final account is done at the end of the month.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

To go back to the convention centre, there were dividends to shareholders of €40 million between 2020 and 2021. Bonuses were paid, although I am not sure if that was to all eight or only some of the directors. Presumably the witnesses were aware of the impairment in the 2021 statements in relation to the PPP contract. What will their approach be when looking at the dividends and the bonuses in the context of that scenario?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

As we explained, the PPP is a contract between the State, through the OPW, and the private partner. Once the contract has been fulfilled we have no influence, say or oversight role in the affairs of the private partner. That is the same everywhere. We built the station on Military Road with the contractor-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What about the impairment?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

-----and the contractor may well have a different financial arrangements in the background. We can only control what is in the gift of the OPW.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What about the impairment in 2021? Mr. Buckley was aware of that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is actually called a provision for non-receipt, effectively, of the amount that could have been discounted.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that something that is part of the consideration?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Absolutely. It also shows on the other side of the table, if we can call the convention centre that. It shows that it is also considering that it may have to pay this money. It actually confirms that no final decision has been taken on this. It is about prudence in accounting. I understand people need to make such provisions.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The OPW has taken a view, the company has taken a view and then the Department has taken a view. Is the Department's view an undermining of the OPW's?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Maybe I misspoke on it. The OPW has not taken a view. The OPW is going through a due diligence process that is warranted in this case. I know it is warranted in this case and so we have not taken a view. What we are doing is listening to other views. We will have to take an overall decision on this because at the end of the day the contract has been-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will the OPW's view be coloured by the Department's view?

Mr. Martin Bourke

All of the views that are taken will help in making an holistic and well-rounded decision that will be fair to everybody, but most particularly to the taxpayer.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I just get the impression - it is not just the OPW - that if this related to somebody who made an error with overpayment of a social welfare payment, there would be an entirely different culture in dealing with that than there is when dealing with forceful entities that have legal people to advise them. There is a different culture with that treatment.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I do not believe that there is. In a previous career I worked in the social welfare environment. Even though it is a much lesser scale of money, there must be very considerable due diligence before something is called an overpayment and somebody is hauled to court or had deductions as a result.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the OPW err on the side of caution when considering the risk of being challenged, for example?

Mr. Martin Bourke

I have been in practically every court in the country up to the Supreme Court, and I have no difficulty going there if that is what has to happen. There is no question of that arising, I understand, in this case. There is actually a dispute resolution clause in the contract if we formally go into dispute. As commercial operators on their side and as commercially minded people on my side, we have to give it due diligence, particularly in the context of a Government policy that stopped international travel, etc. In the history of the world, this has never happened. It deserves a month or two to consider it.

Chairman

However, we need to bear in mind that the contract stipulates nothing about a health emergency.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I understand that. I would take different views on that.

Chairman

When are the civil works due to start on the Mountmellick flood relief scheme?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

On the Mountmellick flood relief scheme, Mr. Casey might be able to check that.

Chairman

I have a couple of quick questions on it.

Mr. Jim Casey

The construction is due to start in July 2025. Planning submission is due in quarter 1 or quarter 2 of 2024. There have been significant delays and programme slippage on the Mountmellick project as the Chairman may be aware.

Chairman

Why?

Mr. Jim Casey

The storm of 2017 and the impact of that event produced new information about the hydrology of the catchments there - the Owenass and Pound catchments. That had to be investigated and it necessitated the design of a new bridge there as well. It completely changed the design from what had been proposed under CFRAM. It is predominantly down to those issues of the complex hydrology.

Chairman

I understand that what was originally planned could have led to putting another location in the town at risk.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Chairman

If it is due to commence in July 2025, what is the approximate duration of that construction? Is it years or months?

Mr. Jim Casey

The scheduled completion is January 2027. It will be a year and a half approximately.

Chairman

There is an urgency because the town is a flat surface - as flat as a pool table, unfortunately. It is at the foot of the Slieve Bloom Mountains. The council has done good work each year. I ask Mr Casey to keep in contact with the council and keep all the channels open in terms of the Pound river, the Owenass and all the other tributaries there. It is a fine balance regarding what can happen. In particular, the houses on Manor Road have been close to flooding on a number of occasions. It is important that the work be done. The last big flood was in 2017 and work is not due to be complete until January 2027, which is ten years later. It is a long time. I know that some of the different stages cannot be overlapped. I ask Mr. Casey to come back to me if there is anything else that can be done to accelerate that.

The cost for the Mountmellick project was just over €3 million.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Chairman

Given the length of time and inflation-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

There is also the extension of the scheme.

Mr. Jim Casey

Our current budget is still just over €3.1 million at present.

Chairman

However, there are new works because of the redesign.

Mr. Jim Casey

We will have to do an update of that estimate at the appropriate time. When we finalise the design and get out to tender, that would probably be the best time to do that.

Chairman

Mr. Casey might come back to me with an update and a briefing note on that.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

Chairman

We had a conversation about buying and renting offices. The site at Mountrath Road, Portlaoise was bought for €1 million. It started off in the 2000s, we are now going into the third decade and we are still within the same situation where the best part of €1 million a year is being spent on renting offices in various places. Some of them are over pubs and in different unsuitable places. I accept that they are consolidated a bit more now. What is the status of the Mountrath Road site? We have a site that is owned and yet we are renting all these different locations around the town for the decentralisation. I accept this was not Mr Buckley's fault, but this was written on the back of an envelope or a cigarette box. It should have been planned better. We heard about this before the 2004 local elections and everybody thought it was wonderful but there seemed to have been no preparation for it. Where are we at now nearly 20 years later with the Mountrath Road site?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

I think we might have some development there. I ask Mr. Bourke to deal with it.

Mr. Martin Bourke

The site is there. There is not a specific plan for it. We are in discussions with all Departments, but particularly the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine in terms of its need for space. Does it require what it has at the moment? Is it going to-----

Chairman

Of course, it needs it. It is renting places such as Grattan House opposite Portlaoise Prison and Kilminchy.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I appreciate we are renting. The amount that would be paid on rent for those buildings as opposed to what we would pay in Dublin is considerably less. In actual fact, it is very good value.

Chairman

That was the argument for locating Departments there. As a public representative for the area and as Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am looking at this site that I drive past twice a day coming here and going home on the orbital route and there it is lying empty with bushes growing up around it. Meanwhile we are paying nearly €1 million a year renting various office complexes around the town to facilitate these buildings. I raised this with Brian Hayes back when he was Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. This has been going on and on but nobody seems to have a handle on it. I have raised it frequently when representatives of the OPW have appeared before the committee. I accept that the OPW does not have full control over this. However, it is not a satisfactory situation. The OPW is charged with the government estate and here we are renting and leasing while this site is vacant. It is totally unsatisfactory. People are scratching their heads wondering why we cannot make better use of this site. In the years since 2002 or 2003, €15 million or €16 million may have been spent on rent. That €15 million or €16 million could have been spent on a greenfield site that is on an orbital route. It is not like the children's hospital and it is not necessary to get in and out by helicopter.

It is an easy place to get into and out of. It is a good site. Okay, there are cables running over it and there is a relocation issue there with the ESB - I am aware of that - but surely, in terms of value for money, this should have been sorted out before now. Heads need to be knocked together. There is the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as well. I know that Ms Mulvihill will not be able to answer the question, but perhaps she could take it back to the Department. Where are we going that we continuously spend money on leases and rents when we have a site standing there? We did not even think of leasing it out to somebody for grazing and now there are bushes growing up around it. It is almost overgrown now.

Mr. Martin Bourke

I hear everything you say, Chairman. What I can say to you is that, in conjunction with the works Mr. O'Connor explained about the new Garda station and the extension to the Garda station, there is an interim proposal being examined at the moment regarding using that site or part of it as part of the decant phase when there is work being done on the Garda station.

Chairman

For temporary location.

Mr. Martin Bourke

It would be temporary, but we have to face the fact that we are at a real crossroads with regard to accommodation for civil servants and public servants at the moment. It would not be a responsible thing to push a button on spending maybe €70 million or €80 million on office space for clients to turn around and say they do not need it because of blended working. We are at that analysis stage. All Departments are working with us on this and we just have to tread carefully in order that we do not commit to something-----

Chairman

I understand that, but you said it would not be a good use of money to press a button to spend money automatically, whereas we have spent money over the years on renting and leasing. It is not satisfactory that a site could be bought and just left standing there with no use made of it in the intervening nearly 20 years now. Can Mr. Buckley see where I am coming from?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes. We take on board everything you have said, Chairman.

Chairman

This comes up at local level regularly. I ask the OPW to come back with some definite information. As for that site, the OPW would want to use it or lose it. It will have to do something. It is not satisfactory that it is just left there vacant like that. I ask that the OPW come back within the next couple of weeks with a report on what exactly is happening with the site and whether it will be used. I did hear some information about the Garda-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes, and I think that might be important because, as Mr. Bourke said, it is temporary but triggers a use of the site. There will be some development at least to get-----

Chairman

Could the OPW come back to the committee with a full answer on that?

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Yes.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Buckley.

I thank the committee and the staff of the OPW and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for the work involved in today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting. Is it agreed that the clerk seek any follow-up information and that we carry out any actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.

I know there were a lot of questions. You wanted to come in briefly, Mr. Buckley.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

If I may, and if you will indulge me, Chairman. I am conscious of the fact that this is the last Committee of Public Accounts debate of the year and it is just before Christmas. I am also very conscious of the fact that one of the main audiences for this will be the OPW staff. We have 2,500 staff and many of them will look back at this video and debate. The work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts is fabulous and a very important part of our constitutional democracy. They certainly keep people like me, Accounting Officers, on our toes. There is not one of us who is not uncomfortable coming in here knowing that each Deputy, in his or her own inimitable way, will question, query and probe. We are really dragged over the coals. That is fine and correct at my level and the level of other Accounting Officers. Of course, the media will then pick up on anything that is a bad headline.

Chairman

I am conscious of that and I acknowledge the work of the OPW.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman

I suppose there is the fact of the wide brief and the amount of property involved. The Deputies reflect the public. We are elected by our peers. The public place huge value on some of the sites we mentioned, not only heritage sites but also public offices and so on. We are lucky in this State that we have an OPW that looks after all these facilities for us. On top of that, now it is landed with having to deal with the Ukrainian modular housing situation and the emerging flood risk situation. I know that is a challenging situation to deal with. I acknowledge that and I think it is acknowledged-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley

The point is that there is a risk in this that good civil servants could become hesitant or maybe overcautious because they worry about their managers being brought in here like this. I wish to take this opportunity to ask OPW staff to please do the reverse. You have just kindly referred to the work that has been done, Chairman. We need to redouble our work and nothing else. The consistent message all morning long has been the speed of delivery. The OPW has a reputation for tackling projects that others do not and addressing them, and we should continue that.

Chairman

And value for money. I know that giving the OPW that framework is a new departure. We did not just write down eight questions on a sheet of paper. Value for money is a hard thing to nail down. We went through a process of doing that. We had some external advice as well. I want the OPW to come back to the committee using that template of eight questions. I know it is new.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We will go through the three projects we submitted but we will put them in that framework-----

Chairman

And tell us why the OPW selected them.

Mr. Maurice Buckley

We can work together on that.

Chairman

You see the questions. That is great.

I thank the witnesses for their work. I wish their staff a happy Christmas. We will agree to note and publish the statements from today and to follow up. We look forward to the OPW coming back with that information.

I will now suspend this meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts until 1.45 p.m. We have important business to attend to in the afternoon.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 1.07 p.m. and resumed at 1.55 p.m.