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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2023

Business of Committee

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, the work programme, and any other business.

The first item of business is the minutes of the meetings of 1 February and 9 February, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee’s web page.

Two sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses between 6 and 10 February 2023. I will now ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Go raibh maith agat. No. 1 is the 2021 accounts of Oifig Choimisinéir na dTeangacha Oifigiúla. That received a clear audit opinion. No. 2 is accounts for 2021 of the Food Safety Promotion Board, also called Safefood, and that received a clear audit opinion.

Do any members wish to comment on those? No. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

No. 3 is correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is: B - correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow up to committee meetings.

No. 1726 B from Ms Mary Hurley, Secretary General, Department of Rural and Community Development, dated 7 February 2023 provides an update on the scoping exercise for a system to replace the Benefacts database, which is the proposed centralised grantee database and national funding platform. At our meeting on 26 January we decided to reiterate our request to the Department for the business case for the project to develop a system to replace the Benefacts database, and for details of the scope of Pobal's proposed role in the project. That letter issued on 10 February and a response is awaited. In the meantime, this item was received. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Murphy is not here but she had flagged this item for discussion. We have two choices. We can hold this back until next week, but as there is a further piece of correspondence awaited I propose that we would hold the item back and wait for that to come in. Agreed.

No. 1730 B is from Mr. John Callinan, Secretary General, Department of the Taoiseach, dated 8 February 2023. It provides information requested by the committee regarding tribunals of inquiry and commissions of investigation. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I had flagged this item for discussion, and we had raised it with the Minister before, with regard to the overall cost of the tribunals. In this correspondence, Mr. Callinan outlines the various investigations and he says:

While these matters are kept under continuing review in the context of the work of particular Tribunals of Inquiry or Commissions of Investigation, there are currently no particular proposals being considered in this Department along the lines referenced in your letter. You will wish to note, however, that responsibility for policy and legislation in this general area rests with the Department of Justice.

The matter the committee had raised with the Department was the overall costs of the various tribunals of inquiry over the years. We asked if the Department of the Taoiseach was considering going in a different way for a more cost effective and a more timely process. I must say that I am disappointed with the response. The issue of costs, timelines and the time involved is not helpful in terms of the public trying to get to the truth, or what it costs to get to that truth. Does any other member wish to come in on this?

One of the issues about inquiries is that one may start off by thinking it will last a very short period of time, but the problem is that the costs go way up once the inquiries continue for any length of time at all. That is where the problem is.

In looking at this as the Committee of Public Accounts it triggered that letter to the Department of the Taoiseach. It is about the sheer cost and the length of time it takes to actually get to the truth. Is there anything else we can do in this regard?

If an inquiry is being conducted where there are individuals who could be adversely affected, then they have legal recourse and are entitled to have the protection of legal representation. This is where the problem then arises. Everyone looks for their own independent legal team. Then the costs start escalating.

Perhaps this is something we may come back to.

It might be worth looking to know what is done in other jurisdictions. Then again, part of the problem is because of the limited powers that we have as a Committee of Public Accounts. It means that we cannot do a huge level of investigation in real terms.

I do not think it is about us doing the investigation. It is more about us as the Committee of Public Accounts coming up with a better suggestion with regard to how tribunals are carried out and what mechanisms we have for investigating tribunals. I propose that we write back to the Department of the Taoiseach acknowledging the letter and asking what work has been done in looking at international examples of best practice, and to ask the Department to report back to the committee on that.

And how that can be implemented taking into account constitutional limitations.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That would be the Department of Justice.

Sorry, yes, that would be to the Department of Justice.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The policy space and the legislation in relation to this would be taken forward by the Department of Justice. Perhaps the committee would address the query to the Secretary General there.

Okay. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next category is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence.

Several items have been held over from our meeting of 9 February. The first is No. 1699 from the clerk of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media and dated 23 January 2023. The joint committee requests the Committee of Public Accounts share with it any response received from RTÉ regarding the RTÉ production, Toy Show the Musical, so it may consider matters further. It is proposed to note this item and furnish the joint committee with previous and future correspondence received from RTÉ on the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 1723 from Deputy Carol Nolan and dated 30 January. It is a request for copies of the committee's correspondence as follows: No. 1574 from Deputy Hourigan, No. 1577 from former member of the committee Deputy Carroll MacNeill, now a Minister of State, and No. 1601 from Deputy Carthy dated 24 November 2022. Members will remember that batch of three that came. The items concern the alleged operation of a body as a charity that is not registered as such. We wrote to the Charities Regulator and received a response and we then requested further information. This further response is awaited. As the correspondence Deputy Nolan is requesting was received from the Deputies, who in turn received it from an individual, I propose the committee write to Deputy Nolan and advise her to request the correspondence directly from the Deputies concerned. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 1727 is from Deputy Carthy and dated 2 February 2023. It encloses an internal An Bord Pleanála report published in the media. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Carthy is not here but he asked me during this morning's session that we consider this as part of the work programme. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 1735 is further correspondence from an individual dated 30 January 2023 regarding expenditure by North Leinster Citizens Information Service. We have considered several items from the individual and previously decided to advise the correspondent the committee may consider the matter further when all proceedings elsewhere are concluded. North Leinster Citizens Information Service is an independent company that operates under an agreement with the Citizens Information Board. The company is a registered charity and is not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Therefore, we do not have powers to compel. It is proposed to inform the correspondent that it is not within this committee’s role to examine the accounts of the North Leinster Citizens Information Service and that the Charities Regulator is the appropriate body for this concern. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of correspondence this week.

May I raise an issue?

I raised an issue last week about one particular person who was on to me looking for us to consider correspondence he would send in. I understand there was correspondence received by the office but it is not on our list. In fairness to the office, it was explained to me why it was not on the list.

Is this on the matter of grants for startup businesses?

Yes. I asked the person to write in on the basis it would be put on the list.

I ask that the letter that was sent in be put on the list for next week.

It has been received but it came after the deadline for circulation to committee members-----

Okay, that is grand.

-----so the secretariat advised me it will be on for next week and we will deal with that important matter for the Deputy.

I thank the Chair.

We move to the work programme. Next week we will engage with the Central Bank and representatives from the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance on chapter 14 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2020, which is concerned with the assessment and collection of insurance compensation fund levies, and on a Comptroller and Auditor General section 2 report entitled Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer. The committee has invited the Governor of the Central Bank to attend but the secretariat has been informed he is unavailable. I propose we write to Mr. Makhlouf to reiterate the committee’s expectation that the Governor will attend the meeting of 23 February as the accountable person and ask him to reconsider his position on attending.

On 2 March, we will engage with the State Claims Agency on its financial statements for 2021 and chapter 20 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021 on the management of the clinical indemnity scheme.

On 9 March, we will engage with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, on its financial statements for 2021.

It is proposed to engage with Enterprise Ireland on 23 March on its financial statements for 2021 and to take funding for local enterprise offices as a specific area of interest. Is that agreed? Agreed.

It is proposed to engage with the Department of Rural and Community Development on 30 March on the appropriation accounts for 2021 and chapter 6 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021 on central government funding of local authorities. Is that agreed? Agreed. That is the other forms of funding that go to local authorities apart from what comes from the Department of Housing Local Government and Heritage. Both Pobal and the Charities Regulator are bodies under the aegis of the Department of Rural and Community Development and I ask members to flag any areas of interest for this or any other meeting.

It was previously agreed to postpone a meeting with An Bord Pleanála until such time as the 2021 financial statements were ready for consideration. It is my understanding these accounts are due to be laid by the end of March. Therefore, I propose we schedule this meeting for the first meeting after Easter, on 20 April. Members should bear in mind Deputy Carthy's correspondence and that a report has been published in the media. Is it agreed to schedule the board for 20 April? Agreed.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Just one thing for next week. If the committee were to list the accounts of the insurance compensation fund for 2021, that would give a more up-to-date financial position and it is relevant to the chapter.

Okay, we will include that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The accounts for An Bord Pleanála were signed on 23 December. As it is getting tight, maybe the committee could contact the Department that has responsibility for presenting the financial statements and ask it at this stage what its plan is.

It is the Department of Housing Local Government and Heritage. It is a three-month window.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. It is just to make sure everything is aligned for that meeting.

Okay. That concludes our consideration of the work programme. The last item is any other business. Nobody wants to raise anything. I thank everybody. Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir.

The committee adjourned at 2.58 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23 February 2023.
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