COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 23 Feb 2023

Business of Committee

Chairman

The business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; work programme; and any other business.

The first item of business is the minutes of the meeting of 16 February, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters on the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

There are 11 sets of accounts and financial statements which were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas between 13 and 17 February 2023. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before opening it to the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The first set of financial statements is for Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board for 2021. That received a clear audit opinion. No. 2 is Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board for 2021. That also received a clear audit opinion, but I draw attention to a disclosure of non-compliance with procurement rules. From memory I think the figure was something like €800,000 or €900,000. It is in the statement on internal control. No. 3 is financial statements of An Foras Teanga, The Language Body, which is one of the North-South bodies. This relates to 2020. It received a clear audit opinion, but the committee may wish to note that it was certified on 18 May 2022 and only presented on 16 February 2023. The committee may need to follow up with an explanation from the relevant Department. No. 4 is the Parole Board for 2021. It has received a clear audit opinion. No. 5 is the Aquaculture Licences Appeal Board for 2021. It also received a clear audit opinion.

The remaining accounts, Nos. 6 to 11, inclusive, all relate to Moorepark Technology Limited, which is a subsidiary of Teagasc. The accounts relate to six years, 2016 to 2021, inclusive. They were all signed at an earlier stage. At least, Nos. 7 to 11, inclusive, were signed at an earlier stage. However, they were not submitted to the Oireachtas through an oversight. When we were doing a sweep at the end of last year's business, we identified that these had not been presented. They have now been presented as a batch. The 2021 financial statements were signed off on 22 April 2022, but were only presented recently. As I said, they all have a clear audit opinion.

Chairman

I notice that the financial statements of the North-South bodies that come before us have all got clear audits. It is good to note that. Do any members wish to raise any other matter?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think we should write to Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board and ask for the reason for the non-compliance with procurement rules.

Chairman

There is a letter, but the Deputy may not have access to it as she is attending remotely. There is an explanation from it. There is a two-page letter outlining that. She should see it on her screen now.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do now. Sorry, I did not see the link. Excuse me.

Deputy Matt Carthy

The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned that Moorepark made an oversight. It is hard to accept that there would be oversights of that nature where the accounts are simply not filed. Where was the mistake made? Was it at Moorepark? Is there not an automatic system that would suggest when accounts are expected and do not arrive?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Up to 2015, inclusive, Teagasc and Moorepark had separate accounts. In 2016 they consolidated and presented group accounts. So, the results of Moorepark had been incorporated into the accounting of Teagasc. It felt that submitting the Teagasc group accounts satisfied the obligation, but in fact the law required it to present both sets of financial statements.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I do not believe representatives of Teagasc have appeared before the committee, certainly not during this Dáil. It has a very significant budget and a very important remit - arguably an increasingly important remit considering its advisory role on climate action measures. It might be useful to include it on the list of future bodies for hearing.

Chairman

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine is one of the ones that we would like to bring in.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I would suggest it would be worth having Teagasc on its own.

Chairman

That is fine. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

Moving to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee on correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s webpage.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is category B, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow up.

No. 1726 is from Ms Mary Hurley, Secretary General, Department of Rural and Community Development, dated 7 February 2023, providing an update on the scoping exercise for a system to replace the Benefacts database, a proposed centralised grantee database for national funding platforms. At our meeting on 26 January, we decided to reiterate our request to the Department for the business case for the project to develop a system to replace the Benefacts database and details of the scope of Pobal's proposed role in the project. That letter issued on 10 February and a response is awaited. In the meantime, this letter was received. At our meeting last week, we agreed to note and publish this item and to hold it over for consideration this week. Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged the item last week and requested that it be held over. She is not here again today. Does any other member wish to comment on it? Are members happy to hold it over for one more week?

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes.

Chairman

We need to deal with it then because it will have run for three weeks then.

No. 1733 is from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Health, dated 9 February 2023 providing information we requested regarding the new National Maternity Hospital and public spending code. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this item for discussion but she is not in attendance today. Is it agreed that we will hold it over until our next meeting? Agreed.

The next category of correspondence is labelled C, which is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. The first item is No. R1744C from the clerk of the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, dated 14 February 2023, relating to that committee’s decision regarding our proposal to issue a compellability direction in respect of a report on the University of Limerick’s purchase of a site in Limerick city centre, the former Dunnes Stores site with which members will be familiar. The committee’s request has been granted and we will be writing to the University of Limerick, UL, in this regard. I propose that we note this item and consider it further in private session but if members want to make a comment on it now, they are free to do so. Members should note that we sought documentation from UL and have been chasing it for a while. UL representatives were before us on a number of occasions and they indicated that if we compelled them to issue the documentation, they would do so. Obviously, we had to go through the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight and it has given us permission to go ahead, which is good news. The transaction related to the purchase by UL of the former Dunnes Stores site is important. Are members happy to go ahead as outlined?

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes, I think we should do that.

Chairman

That concludes our consideration of correspondence for this week. I will now move on to the work programme.

Deputy Colm Burke

There are a number of items of concern here. My apologies but I should have flagged them for discussion.

Chairman

We will discuss them in private session.

Deputy Colm Burke

Okay, my apologies.

Chairman

There are elements that we need to discuss in private.

Moving on to the work programme, next week we will engage with the State Claims Agency in relation to its financial statements for 2021 and Chapter 20 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme. On 9 March we will engage with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, on its financial statements for 2021. On 23 March we will engage with Enterprise Ireland on its financial statements for 2021, with funding for Local Enterprise Offices, LEOs, as a specific area of interest. On 30 March we will engage with the Department of Rural and Community Development in relation to its appropriation accounts for 2021 and Chapter 6 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities. We are planning to engage with An Bord Pleanála on 20 April in relation to its 2021 financial statements which are expected to be laid by the end of March. I would remind Members to flag any areas of special interest for any of our forthcoming meetings with the clerk to the committee well in advance of said meetings.

Does any Member wish to raise any matters in relation to the work programme? Deputy Carthy mentioned Teagasc earlier.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes, it is one area to include on our work programme but I am eager that the committee would prioritise work in respect of the immigrant investor programme and would engage with the Department of Justice in the first instance. This will require quite an amount of deliberation. A number of the people and companies that availed of that programme have left a trail of questions that need to be answered. I am not sure if there is another committee in the House that would have the wherewithal to seek those answers and to give the issue the type of examination that is required. I would urge that we include that in our work programme at the earliest opportunity.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I would like to get an update on Inland Fisheries Ireland and find out where that would fit into our work programme. I would also ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on the appointment of two interim board officials and on how he would foresee the sign off for the 2021 appropriation accounts occurring.

Chairman

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to respond to that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I have no specific update on that matter. Obviously the two persons appointed will need to become involved with the process of finalisation of the financial statements. We will certainly move pretty quickly to sign off on our side but they will have to, presumably, take time to understand the issues because they have got to set out a comprehensive statement on internal control and the implications of some of the issues that have arisen. They do need a bit of time to sort through that. The accountable person, of course, in all of this is the chief executive and not the board. That said, the financial statements really need to be completed before the committee would be in a position to meaningfully examine what is going on there.

Chairman

Okay. I should also say that the Central Bank and the Department of Finance will be before us again. Contact is being made today to try to arrange that because it is important that we follow up issues and that we have a more successful and more productive meeting than the one we had this morning.

On the UL issue, we have been waiting a long time for permission to get that report. We are now in a position to send for it and I would suggest that as soon as we have that report, or an indication of when we will have it, we should bring in representatives of the university to deal with it. It is a long-running issue and we need to close it off. We have spent a lot of time trying to get to the point where we would be able to get sight of the report. If the committee is agreeable, we will try to prioritise that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We should probably wait to see the report before issuing invitations because there may be others that we want to include.

Chairman

Yes. Hopefully we will have it very soon. It is my hope that we will have it in a matter of weeks and we can come to a conclusion on it very quickly. We are looking at a meeting in approximately two months anyway, given the work programme that is already agreed.

That concludes our consideration of the work programme. The last item on our agenda is any other business. Does any member wish to raise any other matter? As nobody wishes to raise anything else now, we will go into private session before adjourning.

The committee went into private session at 1.48 p.m. and adjourned at 2.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 March 2023.