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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 20 Apr 2023

Business of Committee

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business.

The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 30 March 2023, which were circulated to members. Unless any members wish to raise any issue in the minutes, are they agreed? Agreed, and as usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

Moving on to financial statements, there are three sets of accounts and financial statements which were laid before the Houses between 27 March and 14 April. I will ask Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to address these.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The first set of accounts relate to the Legal Aid Board for 2021. That received a clear audit opinion. Second is the special EU programmes body, which is one of the North-South bodies. The accounting period is 2021, and it received a clear audit opinion. The third is Údarás na Gaeltachta, for 2021. It received a clear audit opinion. They were all submitted within the expected timeframe.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. Before members raise any issues with Mr. McCarthy, I take it that we can agree and note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published. It is good to see all four coming up with a clean-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, it is always nice to see.

We will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that are not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee meetings and published on the committee's webpage.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is B - correspondence with Accounting Officers and Ministers, and follow-up from committee meetings. The following items were held over from the last meeting. No. 1819 from Mr. Niall Cody, chair of the Revenue Commissioners, which is dated 23 March, provides information requested by the committee regarding vehicle registration tax and its relationship with EU law.

We agreed to hold over this item to consider it along with the following item, which is a related response from the Department of Finance.

No. R1822 B from Mr. John Hogan, Secretary General, Department of Finance, dated 24 March 2023, provides information requested by the committee regarding vehicle registration tax and its relationship with European Union law. It is proposed to note and publish both of these items of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Unless any members wish to discuss these items, we will move on.

No. R1824 B from Ms Sorcha Fitzpatrick, chief superintendent, An Garda Síochána, dated 25 March 2023, provides information requested by the committee regarding non-compliant procurement. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy has requested us to hold over this item for consideration at our next meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed. There is a substantial figure of €15 million for the year relating to non-compliant procurement. We can have a discussion around that at the next meeting.

No. R1825 B from Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin, chief executive, Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, dated 28 March 2023, provides a quarterly update requested by the committee regarding the installation of CCTV cameras. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I have flagged this item for discussion. Normally when we raise something, it is because sufficient progress has not been made or because we are looking for further information. This letter from the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, is positive in that it is advising the committee that the CCTV installation project is now largely complete. Systems in all 25 racecourse stable yards are now live and operational with CCTV, the last three stables having been done before St. Patrick's Day. Only minor snagging works remain to be completed at a small number of locations. The letter goes on to say that a small bit of building work is going on at some stables and there will be further CCTV upgrades where those additional buildings are added. The letter is fairly detailed. It tells us how many cameras were installed, which is in excess of 500, and it gives details on that. Helpfully, it says that, in his independent review of the IHRB equine anti-doping programme, Dr. Craig Suann concluded that the IHRB programme "does at least match international best practice in most respects and has made significant advances in recent years". It is a positive response which we have sought because this issue dragged on for four or five years and we have been consistently raising it. It is some progress that was pushed by the Committee on Public Accounts. I acknowledge Mr. O'Loughlin's response, as chief executive, and that he has ensured his staff and the IHRB have brought this to fruition. It will be good for horse racing. We note that and publish it. It is welcome and I am very happy with it.

No. R1830 B from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Health, dated 3 April 2023, provides information requested by the committee regarding the health repayment scheme and the application of additional charges by private nursing homes. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I have flagged this item for discussion. This relates to the questions around additional charges that we raised with the Secretary General of the Department of Health. He sets out the basis of how the nursing homes support scheme, NHSS, generally known as the fair deal scheme, works. This is the point of contention. He says costs not covered by NHSS include those individually incurred items such as social activities, newspapers and hairdressing. The letter says that a person's eligibility for other schemes such as the medical card scheme and drugs payment scheme is not affected by participation in the NHSS fair deal scheme. We would accept that the first sentence is fine in that any additional activities or services are not included in the contract and the person pays for them, but the issue, which I think was raised particularly by Deputy Munster, is that there are items that would generally be supplied and available under the medical card scheme which people are being charged for. While Mr. Watt says it is important to state that residents of nursing homes should enjoy the same level of support and access to services for which they were eligible when they lived in their homes, we know they are also being charged for them in some cases. Mr. Watt does say residents under the fair deal scheme should not be charged extra for services which come within the scope of the long-term residential scheme. The Department of Health is currently reviewing the available evidence - I think this committee asked it to do this - and considering the various policy options relating to additional nursing home charges, including services potentially available under the medical card scheme. That is useful. I propose we write to Mr. Watt and ask him to keep us informed of developments and the review being carried out.

There is a problem, which I raised at the Joint Committee on Health this week, with hospitals getting people into nursing homes because nursing homes are saying they need a higher degree of care than the basic level of care a nursing home patient requires, if there is such a thing. There is a problem in nursing homes when a person is admitted and they are quite mobile, but then two years later they need a higher degree of care and there is no process available to the nursing home to review the funding it is getting under the fair deal scheme. This is causing a huge problem for nursing homes now. As a result, there is a stand-off between the nursing homes and the hospitals where the nursing homes are saying that if the hospitals want them to take the patients, the fair deal funding is not adequate. As a result, many people are being left in hospital, which should not be happening. That is one of the problems we now have.

Is the Deputy proposing we would raise this with Mr. Watt to ask if the Department is looking at this?

I propose having a review mechanism put in place where, after a period, which could be 12 months, where a patient requires a higher degree of care, some kind of review would be done to assess the level of support funding that should be provided to the nursing home.

Okay. I thank the Deputy. We will ask for that along with being kept apprised of the other matter of the review of the additional charges.

I thank the Chair.

The Deputy is right to raise that. It is a very valid issue. There is something I have come across that Deputy Burke may have encountered too.

Where the care required by a patient cannot be provided through the fair deal scheme, the patient is transferred to a nursing home or nursing unit belonging to the HSE.

That is happening.

The Deputy has raised in the past that there are higher costs per patient because the patients in general have far higher levels of need and dependency and need a great deal more support and care. We will look for that also in the correspondence. Is the Deputy happy with that?

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

That concludes consideration of correspondence this week. Moving on to the work programme, at our meeting on 27 April we will engage with An Bord Pleanála on its 2021 financial statements. I ask members to flag any items of interest for this meeting in order that they can be added to the agenda. Any items to be included should be sent in to the clerk, and the earlier the better.

On 4 May, we will engage with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to examine the appropriation accounts for 2021. The Secretary General of the Department is also the Accounting Officer for the financial statements of the fishery harbour centres. Do members wish to add the fishery harbour centres financial statements for 2021 to the agenda for this meeting? Deputy Burke lives in a coastal county whereas I do not, he probably knows more about these matters than I do. Does the Deputy wish to add that to the list of items for the meeting?

It is not an area I focus on. I do not have a huge knowledge of it even though I know Cork has a good deal of fishery activity. My constituency is at a remove from the coastline so we are not privileged to have the good beaches other constituencies in Cork have. However, I have no difficulty should the Cathaoirleach wish to add it in.

It may be an issue some of the other Deputies want to address. Issues have been arising around the harbour sector. On 11 May, we will engage with the HSE and the Department of Health on the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report on the emergency procurement of ventilators by the HSE and on the HSE’s financial statements for 2021.

On 18 May, we will engage with the University of Limerick on its financial statements for 2021.

On 25 May, we will engage with the Department of Justice to examine its appropriation accounts for 2021.

I also propose that we write to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in regard to the Department’s capital expenditure underspend for 2022, requesting information on its performance indicators and targets for expenditure and why they are not being met. The Oireachtas provided the money to the Government and the targets have not been met. Is it agreed we write to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in that regard? Agreed.

Does any member wish to raise any other matter in regard to the work programme? Deputy Carthy wanted the Department of Justice in at the last session. On 18 May, we will have the University of Limerick in, so 25 May would be the next date for the Department of Justice. The following week, 1 June, we will bring in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Is that agreed?

Will bringing in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage include dealing with local authorities and their accountability for the funding they receive? Will that come under the remit of the Department when it comes in?

We can put it on the agenda to address the funding that is allocated by the Department to the local authorities.

That would be important.

We cannot hold individual local authorities accountable, however, because that comes under the Local Government Audit Service.

I accept that.

We will bring in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on 1 June, and then there is a gap of a week. There are a further five weeks between that and the summer recess. We want to give the secretariat the opportunity to line up witnesses, give the witnesses plenty of time to prepare, and to allow committee members to consider what they want to have on the agenda. That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today.

The last item on the agenda is any other business. Is there any other issue members wish to raise? No. We will move into private session very briefly before adjourning.

The committee went into private session at 1.56 p.m. and adjourned at 2.11 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 April 2023.
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