COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 11 May 2023

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; work programme; and any other business. In respect of minutes, those from the meeting of 4 May have been circulated. Do any members wish to raise any matters regarding the 4 May minutes? No. Are they agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee’s web page.

The second item is accounts and financial statements. No accounts or financial statements were laid before the Houses between 1 May and 5 May. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General wish to say anything generally on financial statements and accounts?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As I mentioned to the committee previously, in respect of accounts that we would have signed at the end of 2022 relating to 2021, most of those would have washed through the system at this stage. Typically, we would not be signing very many in the first quarter of the year. As I indicated, there may be a number of weeks where there will not be financial statements or accounts coming through.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. I thank Mr. McCarthy for that explanation.

Moving on to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page. The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is correspondence B from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers. The following items were held over from previous meetings. I propose we dispose of these today, one way or another, because we have held them over for a number of weeks.

The first item is No. R1824 B from Ms Sorcha Fitzpatrick, chief superintendent, An Garda Síochána, dated 25 March, and provides information requested by the committee regarding non-compliant procurement. We agreed to note and publish this correspondence. Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged it for discussion. The Deputy, who was not expected to come in, is here. I was going to just dispose of the item today. Now that she is here, however, she may address the matter.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Some of things on this jumped out to me as things that should be foreseen. For example, I can understand things such as towing or translations. It is difficult to judge what the requirement would be with translations. It may well be there could be issues in relation to various languages. However, there are things here such as cleaning, clothing and hiring barriers. Some of that should be foreseen, for events particularly. There is media services as well, which is another one that jumped out at me. I would have thought that was almost a staple that you do. This comes down to the issue of value for money. Even in terms of the translations, it appears to be the same company that pops up with a range of different Departments. Is there competition in this regard? There is not a great variety in terms of the companies Departments are using. We are then looking at whether it is good value for money. We should write to them and ask about things such as cleaning, clothing and media services in particular. Why would they be operational issues? Why would they be falling into non-procurement? Some of it I can completely accept but it would be worthwhile if we drew attention to some of them.

An Cathaoirleach

I disagree with the Deputy slightly on the towing and recovery. There are 14 companies listed there – 14 services providers. It caught my eye that they were for expired contracts. In other words, the contracts are being allowed to continue. I take it that is what that means. It said 14 new contracts are currently in place and the final 14 are to be completed by quarter 1 of 2023. I would like to know whether they were put out to tender. We do not know; it does not tell us that in the response. I fail to see why that would not be put out to tender. In any county, there would be a number of companies, garages and recovery firms with the capacity for towing, recovery and that kind of thing. Whichever one is selected by the Garda is the one that is used and those are obviously the ones being used. Regarding the service that operates in each county, has every one of them been put out to public tender? This does not tell us that. Not only does it not tell us whether the ones to replace these have been put out to public tender, but also, some counties are not mentioned. This covers some counties. One can see the geographic locations such as Gormanston, Donegal, etc. Across the country, is each one put out to tender?

How many that have been tendered out are in place? I wish to confirm that. Will those 14 be filled with tender providers? Those are the questions I have. Would anyone else like to come in on that point? Is everyone happy? We will look for clarification from the chief superintendent of the Garda on that matter.

No. R1880 B from Mr. Harry Lester, assistant secretary general of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, dated 9 May. He has contacted the committee regarding a proposed meeting with the Department. Last week, it was agreed to add a meeting with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, including representatives of the Workplace Relations Commission, to the work programme. The secretariat reached out to the Department with regard to scheduling a meeting for 15 June. The Department has requested that we defer the meeting to a later date as the current Secretary General is leaving at the end of May. A new Secretary General will be coming in. Perhaps "green" would be the wrong word to use, but the new Secretary General would be coming before the committee without the proper chance to familiarise himself or herself with the job and the brief. It is proposed to note and publish the statement of correspondence. Is that agreed? I propose that we agree to the deferral of the meeting to a later date. We can discuss the matter further when we get to the work programme. I think deferral is the sensible thing to do. Is everybody okay with that? The Department is not long-fingering the meeting. It is a practical problem.

No. R1881 B from Professor Kerstin Mey, president of the University of Limerick, UL and is dated 9 May. It is regarding the forthcoming meeting on 18 May, which is next week. Is it agreed to note and publish that item of correspondence? I propose that we discuss this item in private session. Is that agreed? Okay. That concludes consideration of the correspondence for this week.

Moving on to the work programme, at our next meeting on 18 May, we will engage with UL in respect of its financial statements for 2021. I will further discuss arrangements for the meeting in private session. We received permission from the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight to conduct the meeting with conditions.

On 25 May, we will engage with the Department of Justice to examine its appropriation accounts 2021. I propose that we add expenditure and governance of the international protection assessment process and the funding and governance of domestic violence refuge centres as areas of interest for that meeting. Is that agreed? If any other member has a pressing matter to suggest, I ask them to send it to the secretariat.

On 1 June, we will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to resume examination of its appropriation accounts. I propose that we flag the funding, governance and oversight of the cost-rental sector and the social and affordable housing budget spend and delivery as areas of special interest. Is that agreed?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would it also be possible to add a consideration of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS? The funding for the service has expanded considerably.

An Cathaoirleach

To which organisation is the Deputy referring?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I mentioned the NPWS, which comes under the heritage heading.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It falls under the heritage section. The NPWS has experienced a considerable expansion in its funding.

An Cathaoirleach

Under the previous Government, the NPWS was a matter for the Department with responsibility for sport.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It has moved.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We might put the representatives of the Department on notice that building inflation will be a matter we wish to talk to them about in the context of the budget spend on social and affordable housing so they are prepared when they attend.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps also the cost of apartments.

Deputy Verona Murphy

They would know a lot about it.

An Cathaoirleach

A draft work programme discussion document including proposals has been circulated to members. It sets out the proposed meetings for consideration by the committee. We have agreed to defer a meeting with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to a later date. I propose that we instead hold a meeting with Sport Ireland on 15 June, followed on 29 June by a meeting with Sport Ireland's parent Department, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and the Media. Is that agreed?

We have been raising an issue in respect of Irish Water. Its accounts are not audited and the organisation has only fallen under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General and become accountable to the Dáil through this committee since 1 January 2023. That has been long awaited. It was an issue I and other Deputies flagged 12 or more years ago when the organisation was being conceived. There were concerns about the lack of accountability in the legislation and how the organisation was structured. This has been long awaited. There are obviously no accounts to be audited. It will be 2024 before that happens. There are, however, a number of pressing matters regarding Irish Water. I ask that we have its representatives before the committee at the earliest possible opportunity. There are a number of pressing matters that need to be addressed with them. I do not know if people are open to this suggestion but I feel we should have them before the committee in advance of the summer recess. It would probably be too soon to schedule them for 15 June because that only gives a bare four weeks' notice. We try to give our guests the minimum of a month's notice and usually six weeks' notice. I suggest we offer them one of the slots in July. Is that agreed? Is everybody happy with that suggestion?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would we be able to get some sort of brief from them? We will not have a set of accounts.

An Cathaoirleach

I recall the Deputy raising the matter in the Dáil Chamber at the time of the establishment of Irish Water.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I did indeed, as did the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

I was spokesperson for our outfit at the time. It was one of things that bugged us. It was an issue for me, Deputy Murphy and one or two other Deputies.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There will be a set of financial statements for the organisation but they will not have been audited by me. There will be substance on which committee members can focus their inquiries.

An Cathaoirleach

The cost of connection fees is an area I have flagged. I have also flagged the delays in getting connections, the cost of taking estates in charge and the fact that some of that is being held up and local authorities are left to carry with the baby without any funding to do it. Those are issues.

Deputy Colm Burke

Another issue is the lack of co-ordination between the local authorities, Irish Water and the Department. It is crazy. A local authority wants to do one thing but cannot because Irish Water is not in on the overall plan. That is causing a problem.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a legitimate observation, particularly in light of the handover that is happening now. I told the then Minister, former Deputy Phil Hogan, that all this would happen. It is on the record.

Deputy Colm Burke

The problem was that there was no money being put in by local authorities to deal with the water services. We are 40 years behind in terms of upgrading. I got a note to my office in Blackpool in Cork the other day. The pipes were being flushed out because some of the steel pipes are more than 100 years old and all the water coming out of them was brown. No upgrade has been undertaken for a long time and that issue is now difficult to tackle.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

A Government selling point at the time was that this organisation was going to simplify things because there was going to be one organisation instead of a number of local authorities. When Irish Water is doing works, it requires a road opening licence. The contract is with Irish Water but it is the local authority that has to manage the traffic or ensure it is managed properly. Where a contractor fails to properly reinstate the road conditions, it is a matter for the local authority. If anything, Irish Water has complicated matters, including taking estates in charge. It has slowed down the commencement of some building projects.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are all sorts of accusations about what slows down building projects. That has not been smooth by any manner of means.

An Cathaoirleach

I could bring the Deputy to two projects that have been slowed down.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I could do likewise.

An Cathaoirleach

Those projects have not been taken in charge when local authority engineers say that could be done.

Deputy Colm Burke

There is also a problem that in the period around 2008, many people who were buying houses were saying they would not have estates taken in charge but would set up management companies to manage the estate and the effluent treatment. Many of those management companies were not set up.

An Cathaoirleach

I can only speak about my area but that is true with respect to less than a handful of estates. The expectation for the majority of estates for which bonds were paid was that they would be taken in charge. Irish Water is now putting new conditions on it. I do not want to open a big discussion on the matter. There is a problem with taking in charge.

Deputy Colm Burke

There is also an issue where they were sold at the time because local authorities did not want to get involved in developing new sewage treatment facilities and they allowed the contractors to do it. The contractors got purchasers to sign agreements that they would take responsibility for the management of the estates and of the sewage treatment, but those agreements were never followed through.

An Cathaoirleach

The opposite is the case for the ones I am talking about. They were all to be brought into public charge. It was in the conditions of planning permission.

Deputy Colm Burke

It is now a mess.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I concur with Deputy Catherine Murphy that many of the engineers who are supposed to go to the site to confirm everything is done and connect the water are doing their own thing. They can hold up development or houses being handed over for months.

An Cathaoirleach

I will show the Deputy two schemes

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is especially the case in Cork. It is ridiculous.

An Cathaoirleach

I am told that process is okay in Kildare but the Deputy might tell me something different. I can tell the committee that in the most midland county, County Laois, it is difficult. There have been many complaints about it, including this week. We will try to slot Irish Water into one of the July slots. We need to start looking inside Irish Water, as it were. It is timely. It will soon be ten years since it was set up. If we are all still here in 2024, we can deal with the audited accounts. I look forward to that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has Irish Water been rebranded to Uisce Éireann now? It is officially Uisce Éireann. Is that correct?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, €100,000 is reported to have been spent on rebranding. That should be put on the invitation. It is one of the issues I would like to know about. I hope I am not told that all the vans, trucks, helmets and so on have to be sprayed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is the Chair worried he will be asked to do it?

An Cathaoirleach

No. Uisce Éireann is already on the logo. I welcome the fact that it is an Irish name. It has been there from the start. It could have been called that from the start. Now we are told that a company is being paid that kind of money to do the rebranding. That is absolutely bananas and nuts. Anyone in the corridor or in the street would say it should just be done. Uisce Éireann is already on the company stuff. We need to get to the bottom of that. It is symptomatic of the fact that these things happen. It has been reported. We need to check with Uisce Éireann if the reports are accurate when its representatives come before the committee. If the reports are accurate, we need an explanation. I certainly would like to know, as Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, if that happened, why it happened. I cannot confirm or deny it. It has been reported in the media. We will get to the bottom of it.

Meetings with Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, and with the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, were also proposed for July. A report has been published. I thought we were almost finished with NAMA but it has not gone away.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The life of it has been extended. This is a progress report to the end of 2021. I am required to produce a report of that kind every three years. It gives the committee an opportunity to have an overall look at NAMA's performance.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Dillon recently asked for Inland Fisheries Ireland to come before the committee. It is a somewhat depressing matter. I ask members to take that into consideration. If we invite Irish Water, that would mean putting either NAMA or Inland Fisheries Ireland off until the autumn. Perhaps the NAMA report could wait until one of the first sessions in September..

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It could.

An Cathaoirleach

It is in the hands of the committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is a real issue with IFI and governance. We had several discussions here about practices that were quite mind-boggling. There was to be follow-up. I cannot recall exactly but I think there was to be a report. It is important that we have that report or that it is completed before IFI comes before the committee in order for us to have some meat in the content of the meeting.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring in the Comptroller and Auditor General on that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The annual financial statements for 2021 were delayed because of some of the governance difficulties. They have been signed and I understand they will be presented in the near future. There were a number of reports. I think some material has already come to the committee and has been reported on in the public domain. I am not sure of the status of those. Some were focused on individuals and there might not be a capacity in which the committee can have those reports. I cannot give an update on that offhand. When the committee receives the financial statements, I will be able to say more and there will be more information in those.

An Cathaoirleach

When will the financial statements come?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I expect they will be presented to the Oireachtas relatively soon, in the next couple of weeks at the latest.

An Cathaoirleach

Do members wish to go ahead with IFI? There seems to be a little bit of doubt.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

As long as the financial statements are signed off - and they will be - and we see them before the meeting.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They have been signed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is one we must look at.

An Cathaoirleach

My sense would be that we should meet IFI before the summer and hold off on NAMA until the autumn. Are members happy with that? Agreed. I am mindful that Deputy Dillon raised it a few times.

Other suggestions include meeting the Department of Transport about chapter 18 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021 with respect to motor tax receipts, meeting the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, and meeting the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. Members should feel free to raise any other matter or flag areas of interest for those upcoming engagements.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I wonder about RTÉ and the debacle with the GAAGO. Is there anything of interest in that?

An Cathaoirleach

RTÉ is not directly accountable to us because it is a semi-State commercial company. However, we have asked. If it wants to refuse, it can refuse. In fairness it has not refused in the past. A new CEO is in place. I heard something this week about it, but I cannot remember the name.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is Kevin Bakhurst.

An Cathaoirleach

That is it. We wish him well in the job. We can certainly put a meeting with him on the work programme. There is an immediate issue. I have a view on it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is grand. I did not know as I missed last week's meeting.

An Cathaoirleach

We can put a meeting with him on the work programme. If the Deputy wants to address any issue with him through correspondence for clarification, that can also be done. It is the free-to-air argument around sports. Its parent Department is coming before the committee so we could invite a representative of RTÉ on the same day.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This issue is more for a sectoral committee. There is certainly a question mark about a conflict of interest with directors of both.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am happy with that.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is happy enough with that. We have met with them about finance, governance, self-employment and so on. Some headway has been made with all of that, but if we need to invite them again on those or related matters, I certainly would be up for it.

The last item on the agenda is any other business. Do any members wish to raise any other matter before we move briefly into private session? No.

The committee went into private session at 2 p.m. and adjourned at 2.39 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 May 2023.