COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 25 May 2023

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 18 May which have been circulated to members. Do any members wish to raise any matters regarding the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. They will be published on the committee's web page.

We will move on to accounts and financial statements. We will return to this item at next week's meeting. Members will know we are in a period where we do not have to do any of these but we will revert to that next week.

The next item is correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion at this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee meetings and published on the committee's web page.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is category B. This is from Accounting Officers and their Ministers and follow up on our meetings. The first is No. R1904 B and it is from Mr. Phelim Devine, project director, National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and it is dated 19 May 2023. It provides information that we requested regarding the progress and the arrangements for the expected opening of the national children's hospital in 2024. It is proposed to note and publish that item of correspondence. I know some members will be interested in this. Deputy Murphy flagged it also.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are a number of issues. The longer the construction phase goes on, the more expensive this hospital will be. We know that it is substantially behind the original deadline. It was due to be substantially completed in January of next year, with a six month fit-out. The key paragraph in this correspondence is as follows:

Regarding the date of substantial completion, we reported to you in correspondence dated 27 February, S1193 PAC 33, that the main contractor was expected to submit an updated programme for substantial completion to the employer's representative at the end of February 2023, in accordance with the public works contract. The employer's representative is still awaiting the programme, as is required under the contract, and is engaging with the contractor on this matter. Once received, the programme will be reviewed and evaluated by the employer's representative. Once the building is substantially complete it will be handed over to Children's Health Ireland for the period of operational commissioning.

In July of last year we were told that the building was 71% complete and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, or, in other words, the employer, was to get the update in February. I am concerned about the substantial completion date not being met by virtue of the fact that it has not even been able to get the substantial completion programme from the builder. This is required by the contract. We will have to have the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board in before the committee. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General could tell us about where its accounts are, to know where that would be appropriate on our work schedule.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring him in at the end. I will see if other members want to come in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We should be very concerned about this.

I would like to acknowledge that the work in Children's Health Ireland, CHI, Tallaght and Connolly is completed. They are working very well and credit where it is due. One of the questions that was responded to in this piece of correspondence was in relation to the fit-out. It is at pains to point out that the fit-out has no bearing on the other delays. It would be very useful to see what the project for that fit-out is and if it has been future proofed. For example, the pandemic will have shown a value in remote working and remote engagement between consultants in Tallaght or Connolly or in other parts of the country, for example. It may well be that there is a different fit-out because there may be the kind of technology that provides better options for remote engagement between other facilities that care for children.

We should ask the board what that project looks like and whether it been reviewed at all in the context of the changes that might have happened during Covid and whether it is likely that there would be a budget overrun in relation to that. Those are the main points. I definitely want to hear about the accounts.

An Cathaoirleach

Let me outline the issue I have with it. I would actually go further. What caught my eye in the response from the project director is the expectation regarding the main contractor. It refers only to an expectation of an updated programme for substantial completion. That was to come to the employer representative and, obviously, the board as far back as February. That that has not happened despite the contract is an issue, as the Deputy mentioned. I want it clarified that there has been no response. I ask that we be informed of when there is a response. If the project is not completed, what will the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board do in terms of penalties under the clauses of the contract? Is this being considered? I am referring to the fact that a response has not even been received at this stage, with no indication as to when it is coming. The letter was dated 19 May, so it is very recent. We, as members of the committee, need to be informed, but not just about the delay. We know there has not been any response, not even a statement that it will be available to us at such a time. There has been no indication as to when it will come. If it still not available when the secretariat writes to the board, we should ask about what penalties can be imposed and whether they are being considered in the event of this matter continuing. We should ask what the cut-off point is. That is important.

There is another worrying matter. Sometimes these things come from good sources. It was reported at that weekend that it will be the end of 2025 before patients can go to the new national children's hospital at the St. James's site. We should ask for this to be confirmed and whether it is credible. I cannot stand over the accuracy of the information but I presume it is because it is from a journalist. If a journalist has a source and is getting fairly solid information, we would like to know whether it is the case that the project will not be completed until the end of 2025. As members of a public accounts committee, we need to know whether completion is likely to be even later than 2025, considering what is happening now. I will bring in the Comptroller and Auditor General on the question asked.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The last set of audited financial statements that the committee has received relates to 2020. The audit for the 2021 financial statements is not yet completed. We did complete the audit fieldwork and I reviewed it. It was reviewed by the director of audit as well. I cleared it in December but there were a number of issues that had to be dealt with. Those must be resolved before the financial statements are presented. One of them has been resolved and one remains to be resolved. I cannot say yet when I expect the financial statements to be available, but it will be some weeks. Then, obviously, some time will elapse before they are presented. That will relate to the end-of-2021 position, which is obviously unsatisfactory. We should be on the 2022 financial statements at this stage.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What other organisations are behind with audits? Would this be one of the big ones?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It certainly is. There are very few that would be as protracted. There is usually some kind of technical issue. Again, it is down to accounting issues and matters of disclosures, specifically in relation to the contractual commitments, the value of those, the value of claims and the level of information presented around claims.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We have all felt very frustrated over the lack of information and the non-availability of files. The most up-to-date account available to us is actually adding to that. It is very unsatisfactory. It was not just one source that Nicola Byrne from The Irish Mail on Sunday used; there were two. The Chair is absolutely right about that. If somebody has told senior paediatricians that the hospital will not open until 2025, we need to know that.

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask for confirmation whether it is the case that it will not open until the end of 2025 and, if it is not, the projected opening date. We will ask that question along with the others and see what happens.

Section C is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. R1893, from an individual, is dated 4 May 2023. It is further correspondence regarding a request to the committee concerning proposed emergency accommodation in Leixlip, County Kildare, for international protection applicants. It is proposed to note and publish this item. We previously considered similar correspondence at our meeting on 5 May and agreed to advise the correspondents to write to the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this matter.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know this one quite well. The building is a protected structure and the local authority has imposed an enforcement notice on it because it does not have the benefit of planning permission, yet there was a Department contract. There is no issue regarding who is occupying the building. There was a statutory instrument that allowed for commercial or industrial buildings to be used but that did not stretch to listed buildings. Buildings that are listed require planning permission because multi-occupancy could change the fabric of a building. I refer to everything within the curtilage of the site. A large number of mature trees have been felled without permission. There are a number of issues. There could be a scenario in which the local authority challenges the operator, but the contract is with the Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That means one side of the State against the other. From that point of view, there are financial issues that cannot be ignored. I have no problem with this being referred to the other committee because it is not an issue that would naturally fall within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts, until you start seeing-----

An Cathaoirleach

Based on the Deputy's local information on this issue, is there an unauthorised development file opened with the county council?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It has gone from a warning letter to an enforcement notice. It is a time-limited enforcement notice.

An Cathaoirleach

I know there is a time limit on unauthorised development files. It is with the county council and we have referred the matter to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Is the Deputy happy enough with that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. It may well be that it could also go to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage because there are compliance issues. It is really about the contract, what due diligence is done in advance of contracts, and compliance with other elements of the law.

An Cathaoirleach

With the agreement of the committee, we will refer that correspondence to the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

No. R1899, from Deputy McAuliffe, concerns an individual's experience regarding assessments for intellectual disabilities. It is proposed to note and publish this item and forward it to the Joint Committee on Health and the Joint Committee on Autism. Deputy McAuliffe flagged this item for consideration but is not in attendance. I propose to hold it over. I know we all bring in ten items of correspondence like this, but this one highlights an issue that has arisen. I want to give the Deputy an opportunity to address it.

I refer to one other item of correspondence. I do not want to deal with it today because I did not flag that there had been an update. The correspondence is from United Irish Racecourses, from which I have had further contact since the original communication arrived. With the agreement of the committee, I propose that we defer discussion of it until next week. I refer to No. R1888. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We move now to the work programme. Our next engagement, on 1 June, is with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, resuming our examination of its Appropriation Accounts. We decided to focus on funding, governance and oversight of the cost-rental housing sector and expenditure on social and affordable housing. The following meeting, on 15 June, will be with Sport Ireland. On 22 June, we engage with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. There is a gap then, to which I will return presently. On 6 July, we plan to engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland, subject to its 2021 financial statements being available. We have had conversations in the committee previously about this. We plan to engage with Uisce Éireann in our last meeting before the summer recess, on 13 July, pending a decision from the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, to which the matter has been referred. The secretariat has been following up on that and I spoke again to the clerk yesterday.

The only meeting between now and the summer recess for which the agenda has not been agreed is the one scheduled for 29 June. There are several possibilities for this date. An engagement that has been proposed for a while is one with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, with a focus on the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. The Secretary General of the Department is stepping down at the end of May. Department officials have confirmed that they are available to attend on 29 June. Another option is a discussion on the special report by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the progress of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, in achieving its objectives. That report is due to be published soon, but we do not have a date for it. There is also the option of bringing in the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, to discuss its financial statements for 2021. There is an issue the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to regarding non-compliance with salary disclosure requirements and the terms of the early retirement package for the former CEO of the board. We have dealt with the IHRB previously but there is this particular issue around the CEO's retirement package.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will the Cathaoirleach clarify to what he is referring?

An Cathaoirleach

I refer to a possible engagement with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board to discuss its financial statements for 2021. The Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to an issue of non-compliance with salary disclosure requirements and the terms of the early retirement package for the former CEO. The question is what our agenda should be for the meeting of 29 June. As I indicated, officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment have confirmed their ability to attend on that date to discuss the Workplace Relations Commission. That engagement has been on the agenda for a while.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is a logic we have been following in a thread of our discussions, which can be seen to continue by way of an engagement with Sport Ireland and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. If we are going to do a report on the whole area of sports governance, it strikes me that it makes sense to have a meeting with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine should be involved in that, given the substantial amount of money that goes to both the horse and greyhound racing industries. The issues there fit into the overall category. There are governance issues to be discussed.

An Cathaoirleach

The meeting of 22 June is with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the parent Department for the horse racing industry.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May we have members of the IHRB in on 29 June?

An Cathaoirleach

We may, but there is a choice to be made. We have had a substantial number of guests in to discuss the broader issues and we have done a report, which was launched in recent months. There are a lot of related issues that come up at meetings of the committee. There is the option of doing as the Deputy proposes. When officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine were here on 5 May, the issue regarding the CEO's retirement package was raised with them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

An engagement with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine should be a subset of our consideration of the broader issue. We should be looking at the governance around the IHRB.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the position with the board? Is it not the case that quite a number of people resigned from it?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is Deputy Burke referring to the IHRB?.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not aware of resignations from the board.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I do not think there were such resignations.

Deputy Colm Burke

I may be mixing it up with some other board.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

From memory, the directors of the IHRB are nominated by the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee.

Deputy Colm Burke

I apologise. I was thinking of another board.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I do not think there have been changes at the IHRB. The Deputy might be thinking of Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, where there have been changes in board membership.

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes, that is what I had in mind.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This is an issue that has arisen previously. There is a real difficulty in figuring out who funds what and where the boundaries are. The last time we had a substantial engagement on this, we were quite shocked that there seemed to be a kind of blending of the two bodies, with some of the same people on both boards.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, there is some cross-membership. The bulk of the funding for the IHRB comes from HRI. While the matter of the severance package was raised with the Department, the latter was not consulted or involved in making any decision in that regard. The Department did not know until after the fact that the payment had been made.

An Cathaoirleach

We can bring the officials in for a full hearing on that issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The issue is governance as much as it is about the severance payment. The latter is part of the same, broader issue.

An Cathaoirleach

The decision on the agenda for the meeting of 29 June is in the committee's hands. We have had a report on the broader issues the Deputy referenced and we have had a number of engagements with the people involved. There is always a general governance issue when we bring in any Accounting Officer, but the question is whether there is enough in this particular matter to warrant a full hearing. I am mindful that there are only so many Thursdays in the year, and only a few between now and 13 July.

Deputy Colm Burke

What else is there that we might discuss instead?

An Cathaoirleach

There is the possibility of engagement with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the Workplace Relations Commission. There is the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report on NAMA's progress in achieving its objectives. That is due to be published soon but we do not have a date for it. Then there is the possibility to discuss the IHRB's financial statements and the non-compliance with the salary disclosure requirement and the terms of an early retirement package for the CEO.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Looking back at where there have been significant issues in the sports area, they have been very damaging to some of the sports involved. In the case of the Olympic Federation of Ireland and the FAI, there were significant governance failures in both instances. The horse racing industry is a very sizeable one. It weakens that industry if its governance is not properly organised, with proper boundaries. The issue regarding the IHRB is one of the big outstanding issues. I am arguing strongly for an engagement on it because it could form part of a report that covers the range of different issues, from those at Sport Ireland and right through to other organisations. I can see the committee being able to produce a reasonably good report, on the basis of which we could get some outcomes from the Department.

An Cathaoirleach

I would imagine that if we are doing a report on Sport Ireland, because it is a different Department, it will be a report on that hearing. Does anyone else want to come in regarding the work programme? We have a vacancy on 29 June. Here are the options. We previously agreed to defer a meeting with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with a focus on the Workplace Relations Commission. The Department is available on 29 June. That is where the vacant slot is. A special report is due from the Comptroller and Auditor General on NAMA's progress in achieving its objectives. It is due to be published soon but we do not yet have a date. The other option is the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board's, IHRB, financial statements 2021 and the issue the Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention to regarding the retirement package for the former CEO. Those are the three options.

We did launch a report on the horse racing industry a number of months ago and the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board has appeared before us on a number of occasions. I am assured there is an issue there. The retirement package is the main issue but is there enough to justify bringing the board before the committee?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is the governance.

An Cathaoirleach

Those are the options.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Regarding the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I would also support a call for IDA Ireland to come before the committee to discuss its remit within the Department, possibly in a later work programme. IDA Ireland has a substantial budget and is rolling out its building programme. I think it has a four-year strategy and has over 19 buildings to complete by the end of 2024. We know how important this agency is. IDA Ireland is under the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Accounting Officer and chief executive was newly appointed so perhaps there is an opportunity to include it in the available slot at the end of June.

An Cathaoirleach

Do any other members wish to contribute? We can bring in NAMA but there is a bit of uncertainty around that because there is the question of when we will have the report from the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General might wish to comment on when that report is likely to appear.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is in the hands of the Minister for Finance. The report is with him. I understand that it will be brought to Cabinet. The financial statements for 2022 have been signed so my guess is that they may be brought together.

An Cathaoirleach

That leaves us with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding the Workplace Relations Commission with IDA Ireland attached to that, as raised by Deputy Dillon. Deputy Catherine Murphy has proposed the option of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. They are the options.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I would like to see IDA Ireland come before the committee as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Deputy Colm Burke have any preference?

Deputy Colm Burke

The issue regarding the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board is not a small one but it is very focused whereas Enterprise Ireland and what Deputy Dillon raised about IDA Ireland might be worth addressing at this stage. We could see if we can put the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board in with something else later on. Alternatively, we could put in two items at the same time. I do not know whether we can or not.

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest we do not long-finger it too much because-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I accept that.

An Cathaoirleach

-----there are governance issues that we need to keep on top of.

Deputy Colm Burke

The one thing that stands out with regard to both, if you look at the Olympic issue and the issue regarding the FAI, although it involves personalities, is that little kingdoms were built. That was one of the problems in both organisations and I presume the same thing applies in the horse racing industry.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Deputy saying this in a general way?

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I know members are anxious to bring in the IHRB, and I agree that it needs to be brought in, but it may need to be included with some other items. Are members happy to leave that and pencil in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If the majority wants to do that, that will be the decision.

An Cathaoirleach

I just note here that we are looking for IDA Ireland with representatives from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Could we bring in the Department and have somebody from IDA Ireland at the meeting? Is it a stand-alone set-up?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

IDA Ireland absolutely is. It has a separate Vote and is a State body with its own financial statements.

An Cathaoirleach

The budget is around €80 million.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think it is bigger than that. I cannot remember the figure offhand. Remember that at this stage, the committee will be dealing with the 2021 financial statements. The 2022 financial statements will not yet be available. At this time of the year, that is a factor to possibly take in account. The committee will have the 2022 financial statements for IDA Ireland in September.

An Cathaoirleach

Would there be anything to stop us from having both of them in at the same time?

Deputy Verona Murphy

In that case, it probably makes more sense to wait. I take Deputy Catherine Murphy's point about compiling a report based on governance of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, which I appreciate is probably something we could do before the recess as opposed to IDA Ireland, which we could invite in for September. At the end of the day, we have five full weeks and there is no point in rushing it if we want IDA Ireland back in. There have been developments since last week. The University of Limerick appeared before us and it was reported in the newspapers half an hour ago that governance issues have led to the provost resigning. I want to bring that up as well.

An Cathaoirleach

When will IDA Ireland's financial statements be ready?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 financial statements.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They will certainly be done in the next weeks but then there is the submission of them to the Minister and then the laying of them. Typically, they would arrive either before the recess in the middle of July or they would be included in September. We will know well ahead of September if the committee wanted to call IDA Ireland then. I am almost certain it would have its financial statements at that stage so the committee could programme a couple of weeks before my annual report appears.

An Cathaoirleach

We could still go ahead with the Department and the Workplace Relations Commission, which is attached to it, if we wanted to.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am happy to have the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board come before us in June and for us to hold off getting IDA Ireland in - probably on its own. I think we need it on its own.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the Deputy suggesting we do on 29 June? We have one slot to fill.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am suggesting we hear from the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board.

An Cathaoirleach

What are the views of the other members?

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am okay with hearing from IDA Ireland in September to discuss the 2022 financial statements and support what other members suggest for that free slot.

An Cathaoirleach

In that case, it is the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. That is subject to availability because the clerk may invite it to appear before us and it may say it does not have availability for that date. If that happens, is the committee happy for us to go with plan B, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I would be happy to opt for the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board if we could have the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine as well.

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask for that. Deputy McAuliffe has some correspondence.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I ask the Chairman to indulge me. Unfortunately, I was in the House for Leaders' Questions. Like Deputy Verona Murphy, I would like to raise the issue of the University of Limerick.

An Cathaoirleach

Hold on for a second. I will let the Deputy in on this in a minute. We are not finished-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am just flagging it with the Chairman.

An Cathaoirleach

That is no bother.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Mark Darmody met with me and a number of representatives from the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party last week and the correspondence is from him.

He has also met representatives of other political groupings across the House and, obviously-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, but before the Deputy continues does any member wish to raise anything else regarding the work programme?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask that we bring in the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board in the autumn because of the accounts.

An Cathaoirleach

The board is on the list.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

We should have it in.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Whether they are presented or not.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. That is okay. Coming back to Deputy McAuliffe and the correspondence, we agreed to defer it because he was not here.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is it possible to address it here?

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Excellent. As I said, Mr. Darmody forwarded the correspondence to me, having met with a number of Fianna Fáil Deputies. I understand he met political groupings right across the House. This was last week. I forwarded the correspondence to the committee. Subsequently, it became a matter of debate at Leaders' Questions this week. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has also commented on the wider provision of services for children with autism and the use of independent contractors to help meet that need. I forwarded the correspondence to this committee because I had a concern about what happens with a child in need of autism care. It is with Mr. Darmody's permission I am making this case because I think he agrees with it.

A child who was not number one on the waiting list received the support of the HSE by way of the HSE making payment to an independent contractor. The key point here is a that child who was not ordinarily number one on the waiting list received what was an ad hoc solution. There is a clear correlation to be drawn from this, which is that the HSE was stepping in to, in one sense you might say assist, but the other suggestion might be to silence, a patient and their parent, who was being incredibly proactive and campaigning on an issue. In order to deal with that child's needs, a bespoke solution was put forward. Separately, you could also say that without the advocacy of herself and her father, she may not have received that. That is not a correct way for the HSE to assess the needs of a child. Dealing with parents who are advocating in a bespoke way is not a correct manner in which to spend State resources and is not a way in which there is an independent, transparent process. There are much bigger policy issues that the Government needs to deal with on this in the context of the provision of autism services and so on, but we should ask the HSE to comment specifically on why this particular solution was put in place and made available to Mr. Darmody and his daughter Cara, and why it was not made available to others. That is the first question.

The second question is why Cara was selected to be the appropriate recipient of this, and not others. I am not saying, nor is Mr. Darmody, that she did not need it or does not require it, or that it has not benefitted her. What we are here to do is ensure public money is being spent appropriately and also that there are transparent systems that benefit all the citizens of the State and not just those who are forced to advocate. There are many people who are not in a position to advocate. There are parents of children with autism who would not even be able to have the head space to deal with campaigning, meeting political parties and all that. The HSE should be asked to respond to the very clear sequence put forward by Mr. Darmody. As I said, I am not seeking to tread into the policy issues. I am asking for the HSE to comment on one patient who was given a bespoke solution and what the impact of that is.

The final point is that there is clear connection with the nursing home support scheme. If there is a service that is not available through the HSE and if somebody is entitled to that service and they do not receive it, the question that arises is whether they could be entitled to compensation further down the road. It is the same as the nursing home support scheme and the fact that it was subsequently ruled that some patients should have been entitled to access that scheme. At the moment, parents right are paying for this service out of their own pockets. They should not be obliged to do that. The correspondence before us is significant and the HSE should be asked to comment on it.

An Cathaoirleach

To add to that, I read the correspondence. I also heard bits and pieces of the commentary around this matter over the past couple of days. We should ask the HSE about a proposal, as I understand it, to establish six regional assessment teams. Late last night or this morning, the HSE stated that is not possible because it cannot access the agency staff. I would like to know what period was spent trying to assess whether the HSE could get agency staff or to seek expressions of interest. We should ask the HSE that. It is a very imperfect solution. I would rather see those child and adolescent mental health teams being staffed out properly and professional psychologists in place within the public system we are pumping a lot of money into, and rightly so. What call was made on that and were expressions of interest sought from providers? I am concerned, given the timeline between the announcement from the Minister of State and the HSE's refusal overnight or very early this morning. Did it come back yesterday?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think it did.

An Cathaoirleach

I did not hear because I got home late last night. That is even quicker. In a matter of hours, the HSE said it could not do that because it cannot get the agency staff. We need to know what it did to try to find the agency staff to try to put in place a solution, albeit an imperfect one. Deputy Burke wishes to come in.

Deputy Colm Burke

One of the problems we have had with a whole lot of services, no matter what they are, is the demand for staff and the availability of staff. The person is on a waiting list to be assessed but the question is at what stage do we decide the waiting time is too long and we therefore need to get an independent agency to do the assessment.

Reference was made to the nursing homes. The issue with the nursing homes and entitlement to care was decided by the courts a number of years ago. We we are not that far away from where we might have a decision made by the courts about the right to have an assessment done within a reasonable period. The idea behind the treatment abroad fund set up within Europe was that if a person cannot get access to medical care or treatment, he or she has an entitlement to travel to another EU to get it. With this it is likewise only a matter of time. The Department needs to get a policy decision on this. At what stage does it decide what is a reasonable time for someone on a waiting list for an assessment to wait? We have already made a decision on that in relation to medical treatment regarding at what stage a person is allowed get treatment abroad.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I could not agree more. It would be especially unfortunate if we were accessing the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, for children. My understanding of Cara Darmody's case is her family paid for a private assessment. They did not locate or find the person to do it, they just paid for it. When the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth was before us, it was stated that there are 6,500 people waiting for assessments of need. We know if all those children were assessed in the morning the system would collapse and we know that is where the reluctance is. We clearly just cannot cater. It is clear to me what the HSE is trying to do is keep it at a pace where the services can cope if assessments are done and children are certified or given an assessment of need. Unfortunately, with the NTPF, when a child is assessed, he or she gets a date to be reassessed. We do not want to see it where we cannot go back for whatever reason and that they are going to Northern Ireland or wherever. We clearly have the capacity to do it here in the private sector. What we do not have is many parents with the money to pay for it, because it can cost anywhere from a couple of hundred euro to nearly €1,000 to get it done.

An Cathaoirleach

It can be more than €1,000. One figure I heard was €1,100.

Deputy Verona Murphy

And more. That is my point. What the Cathaoirleach was talking about this morning, and what the HSE said, is that the Minister's proposal to staff disability respite services with agency staff was a non-runner because they could not access. This is clearly not a non-runner. There are people who can do these assessments. It is the want for paying for it. We do not need it to go to the NTPF, but it is very unfair on the basis of what applied if one needed one's hip replaced, and it was not done inside six months. We know from the UN that basically, children should not have to go to court. Parents should not have to go to court to have these assessments carried out, but when they do, they are automatically assessed. That should not be the system. We need to categorically decide if we are going to pay for this. Clearly it is a deficit within the HSE and service providers.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It may well be that we may need to look at it at some point. Under the definition of value for money, it is not about what one spends, but the services one gets. Every one of us knows that some services are really threadbare. I have never met a parent with a child with special needs who was not an advocate with a big file under their arms. They are constantly just battering down doors to try to get services. Some people are better equipped to do that than others, and we know that. Sometimes it is not just about the financial resources; it is also about the wherewithal and the access to people. That is something we might look at.

When I met people in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 7, which is my own CHO area, they were talking about the assessment of needs as a priority, because there was a legal imperative to do that due to a court case.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, six months, I said.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Six months.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They said that they were actually spending all of the time doing the assessments of need, because there was a legal imperative. However, they were not getting to deliver the services as a consequence of that. That is really an alarm bell. If one has an assessment of need and then one does not have any follow-up regarding occupational, speech and language or behavioural therapy, or whatever it is that is required; if that does not flow from the assessment of needs; and if that time is taken up doing that, there is a huge underprovision. Essentially, there are consequences for that which get picked up with regard to the child themselves, and also the cost later on, because one will always have to come back and undo damage that is done by virtue of the fact that one has not intervened.

An Cathaoirleach

That is right. Timely intervention.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If we are having the HSE in later in the year, we need to look at this as a unique piece. We maybe need to look at where there is a legal imperative to do something, if there is a follow-through on that, are there resources to do that, and how the money is spent.

An Cathaoirleach

They are not based on the figures with regard to staffing. I ask Deputy Verona Murphy to be brief, because we have to wrap this up.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The reality is that of course, it is not just about the money. The primary reason for the assessment is to get the child into the autism spectrum disorder, ASD unit of the school if required. No teacher can apply on the basis of not having the certificate for the child.

An Cathaoirleach

It is also on the basis of accessing CAMHS services as well.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I understand that, but in the school sphere, one cannot apply for the supports for the child if the child has not got a certificate. It is ridiculous, because the teachers are quite capable of assessing. That is the knock-on effect.

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask those questions. As it happens, this morning I was coming in very early. It was not long after 7 a.m. I took a call, and I heard the second half of what was coming over the RTÉ airwaves at the time. I heard the HSE saying that there are not enough staff in the private sector available to staff it. I did not hear all of what they were saying, so I thank the Deputy for being helpful with that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is what it was. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is very proactive-----

An Cathaoirleach

For the first half of it, my phone was going.

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----and I think it is a very difficult position for her to be in as the Minister of State.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to let Deputy McAuliffe come in and conclude that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I would like to clarify, in case I misspoke. In this case, it is about Mr. Darmody's son. Ms Cara Darmody was in advocating for him.

An Cathaoirleach

She was doing so as his sister.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Exactly, yes. I do not take from anything which any of the other Deputies have said. There might be a piece of work here for us in the whole area of disability services. However, in very discreet questioning to the HSE, we need to ask what happened in this case. Essentially, the HSE adopted the private appointment of an individual as their private appointment and paid the bill for that. The question is, where was the funding for that? Second, in how many other cases has the HSE paid for the private assessment of individual patients? Third, were there any criteria around why that was done, as Deputy Colm Burke said? Why was it done, and what were the criteria in terms of length of time, available service etc.?

An Cathaoirleach

I think there are implications here for children who may have an urgent need. I know this child had what might be deemed to be a more urgent need. What happened? Are they now in line, and if not, why not?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I may be creating a significant difficulty for the Government here, but what about all of the parents who have already paid these fees, now that we find out that one parent, because they were selected by the HSE, apparently without criteria, received payment?

I want to finish with one sentence from Mr. Darmody. He says he believes serious questions need to be asked regarding where the funding is coming from to pay his bill, or the HSE's bill as he puts it. It also appears that they are being treated differently from thousands of other families who are forced to pay for the same type of private autism assessment. I have to say that Mr. Darmody is very brave speaking up. There are many parents who would actually be grateful in the wrong sense of the word-----

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

-----and would shut up their mouths. Mr. Darmody is not doing that, and he has exposed something very significant.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think we will ask the question and then move on.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree. I thank Deputy Murphy. We have agreed that. Have we any other business?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, Chair.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, Chair. Deputy Verona Murphy indicated first.

An Cathaoirleach

We are in public session.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We are in public session, yes. I have just learned that one of our witnesses from last week has resigned, or at least it is alleged in a media report that he has resigned. What I am more concerned about is that I got a phone call as to why he may have resigned. I asked a specific question of Professor Kerstin Mey about why we had a different panel appearing before us - a panel of witnesses who had not appeared last year. There were a couple of changes. I would like the committee to come back with the blacks - the diktat - so that we can check what the response was. My recollection might be different from what was actually said, but it is significant for a reason I do not wish to divulge in public session. If we are not going to hear the full truth when we ask a question, we need to address it as a committee. What we are doing is pointless if people who are in command of moneys from the public purse are coming in here and not answering questions truthfully. Never mind the fact that half the time they do not answer them, but if they are not being answered truthfully that is a significant issue we need to address.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Deputy McAuliffe to be brief.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I was reflecting on last week's performance. The question is, what purpose is there in bringing people in here? What do we get from it? Ultimately, it is about ensuring that there is accountability with regard to public money, and that is done in an open way. Our first engagement with the University of Limerick, or its first engagement with this committee anyway and not previous iterations, was with the chancellor.

An Cathaoirleach

There was one prior to that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, but it appeared to me that the University of Limerick was unhappy with the way information was presented to them, and it had a process to try to discover that. I would have thought that what we were doing was helpful to them in exposing what had happened. I thought what happened last week was incredibly unsatisfactory from our side, but it was also incredibly unsatisfactory from the University of Limerick's side. If it is correct that they may have been misled regarding how a decision may have been made, it should have been much more forthcoming in response to the very simple and direct questions which were asked.

There is one point I want to focus on. Regardless of what happens with the University of Limerick, the KPMG report and all of that, it is very clear that it is a governance review.

An Cathaoirleach

By way of being helpful, I note that I have discussed this matter with the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office will be doing further work on it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is the point I was going to make. From last week's meeting, it is clear to me that the review is a governance review and does not deal with value for money or the financial elements, including whether the university paid the correct rate.

Deputy Verona Murphy

While I do not want to hold everyone up, I have one more point to make.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As a committee, we need to reflect on what happened last week and decide on what areas we think are important. I agree that we should ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to bring forward proposals as to how the committee might deal with the issue and to suggest what additional information or format might prove useful.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If I can add to what Deputy McAuliffe has said, last week, we had the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science before us and we learned that it was withdrawing €3.5 million in funding from the University of Limerick and telling it to get its house in order with regard to governance. We then learned that the university had received €750,000 in funding from the urban renewal and regeneration programme. It is beyond a joke. The committee needs to address the matter from the perspective of value for money.

An Cathaoirleach

This will be reported on.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is correct, we need to-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I would like to hear whether the Comptroller and Auditor General has anything to add in that regard because-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We are still not clear on whether the university paid the correct value or whether it paid below or above the market value. That is the problem.

An Cathaoirleach

I will try to be helpful. I ask the Deputies to bear with me on this. I saw all of the exchanges and the back and forth last week and I certainly felt it was very unsatisfactory. That is the mildest thing I can say about it. There is further work to be done. I ask the Deputies to hold fire. There is a conversation that we need to have around this. I ask that the Deputies hold fire on this. That is all.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not understand why. That is why I am asking the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I do not understand what "hold fire" means.

An Cathaoirleach

I can ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment in public or I could ask him to respond in private. If he feels okay about commenting in public, I am happy enough with that but I am also happy enough to leave it to private session.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It may be better to deal with some of it in private session but, reflecting on the evidence presented last week, it seems to me that there is information that would be useful to the committee. As Deputy McAuliffe has said, there were a number of issues that need to be addressed, particularly with regard to the value for money achieved in the transaction. It may be valuable for me to do a value-for-money examination, which might touch on some of the governance issues. Obviously, I would need to look at the information separately. It is something that I was minded to do when the concerns first came to light but I held off because the KPMG report was under way. However, it now seems that even that is some way off and there may be a question mark as to whether it can ever be put into the public domain.

An Cathaoirleach

We also have a substantial draft report to go through today. Does Deputy Verona Murphy want to come in briefly?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am happy with that as long as we do not let these issues go. I just do not agree with one Government entity withholding funds while another provides them.

An Cathaoirleach

The nature of the conversation was in that vein. I just ask that the Deputy be patient.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is a compounding of reputational damage here. We saw that last week. I do not think it is in our interests to let that go.

An Cathaoirleach

We should not let it go and we will not.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is another issue with regard to the unacceptable engagement with this committee. If we tolerate that, it will invite others to treat the committee with the same kind of disrespect and evasiveness we saw last week. This is not the first time the University of Limerick has been in. In fact, the university sector was the most prominent sector in the work of the previous Committee of Public Accounts. It is the one area you would expect leadership to come from. There is an ongoing issue here and we cannot just turn a blind eye to it.

Deputy Colm Burke

The same issue arose with the Central Bank with regard to Quinn Insurance. We had one meeting where we could not get information. While I am not saying there was anyone involved, that information got out to the media the day before the Central Bank came in for a second meeting. That is also totally unacceptable. To go back to the issue of the University of Limerick, I am not defending anyone but one of the problems is that litigation is under way. Everyone has been careful about what can and cannot be said. Perhaps one of the problems is that people were given too much advice about what they could and could not say. That is one of the problems that arises once litigation is involved. It is very frustrating from our point of view.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Some of the questions had no bearing on litigation.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going to revert back.

Deputy Colm Burke

A problem can arise whereby people are overcautious when they do not need to be and then give the wrong impression in the process.

An Cathaoirleach

They can be overcautious with a capital "C". That completes the public business. We will now move into private session.

The committee went into private session at 2.36 p.m. and adjourned at 2.56 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 June 2023.