COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 Jun 2023

Appropriation and Expenditure of Public Moneys by RTÉ: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting this afternoon. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that the witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

A number of witnesses today are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings. Those witnesses have been advised of this and may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.

Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State will have already been advised that they should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give. Their decision on whether they take legal advice on the evidence they propose to give should also be informed by this.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise to engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This afternoon we are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. Andrew Harkness, director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This afternoon we are engaging with RTÉ and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to examine matters relating to the appropriation of public moneys to RTÉ and the expenditure by RTÉ of such public moneys. Additionally the committee wishes to discuss commercial arrangements entered into by RTÉ and its presenters, including those underwritten by RTÉ which have impacted on and relate to the expenditure of public moneys. These matters for discussion have arisen in the context of recent and ongoing revelations regarding RTÉ's payment of presenters and how this was previously presented to the Oireachtas.

The terms of reference of the Committee of Public Accounts have been extended to give us increased powers to examine these issues. We have also been given powers of compatibility to invite people who are not here today. I want to put members and witnesses on notice that the committee has agreed to ask Ms Dee Forbes to attend when it is medically appropriate for her to do so. In the near future we will seek the go-ahead for this through the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight of the Houses of the Oireachtas. We wish Ms Forbes well and we wish her a speedy recovery.

RTÉ and the Department have been advised of the areas of focus for the committee. These are the appropriation of public moneys by the Department to RTÉ and the oversight of same by the Department; payment to RTÉ presenters, specifically from 2017 to date, and how these payments were accounted for in the RTÉ accounts; the oversight mechanisms for such payments, in particular but not limited to payments to Ryan Tubridy; the process relating to the cost-neutral nature of the Renault agreement, including the persons responsible for signing off on it; the specifics of what led to the agreement to underwrite the commercial arrangement with Renault and Ryan Tubridy, and the details of the RTÉ policy relating to such underwriting of these agreements, RTÉ's policy regarding the operation of barter accounts, why they are used and what oversight there is in RTÉ regarding such accounts; and the discrepancies between previous assurances given to the Committee of Public Accounts by RTÉ on matters which are now in the public domain.

We have a long list of witnesses. We are joined by Mr. Adrian Lynch, interim deputy director general; Ms Geraldine O'Leary, director of commercial; Ms Paula Mullooly, director of legal affairs; Mr. Rory Coveney, director of strategy; Mr. Richard Collins, chief financial officer; Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chairperson of the board; Ms Anne O'Leary, chair of the audit and risk committee; and Mr. Robert Shortt, member of the audit and risk committee and RTÉ staff representative on the board.

We are also joined by Dr. PJ Matthews, RTÉ board member, via Microsoft Teams. I understand that Dr. Matthews would have been on the board over the past five or six years. We are also joined by the following individuals from RTÉ: Ms Moya Doherty, the former chairperson of the RTÉ board; and Mr. Willie O'Reilly, former director of commercial at RTÉ, who is joining us via Microsoft Teams. We are joined by the following representatives from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media: Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General; and Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary, broadcasting and media. We are ready to start so I ask Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make her opening statement.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na baill as an deis labhairt leo. At the outset, I reiterate our profound regret regarding what has emerged in recent days. We know that RTÉ fell far short of the standards expected of us as an organisation. We know this represents an egregious breach of trust with the public, for which we apologise.

I am particularly aware of the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts in ensuring accountability and transparency in how public bodies like RTÉ allocate, spend and manage their finances. The committee is charged with ensuring that the taxpayer receives value for money for every euro spent by such bodies. Given the committee's mission of guardianship of the public purse, the failures that have come to light on RTÉ's part must be truly shocking to it, as they are to me. That was a breach of trust with the elected members of the Committee of Public Accounts, which has a central role in Irish public life, and this is something for which we sincerely apologise. We are completely committed to rebuilding trust with the committee and with other public representatives. This is the least we can do.

We also welcome the role that the Committee of Public Accounts has been afforded to examine expenditure by RTÉ and we will work closely with the committee in this regard. As a trained accountant and a former financial controller, I am appalled as to how payments were recorded and presented in the RTÉ accounts. What was the motivation here? It appears to me that this was an act designed to deceive. The forthcoming external Government review will look at matters of culture and governance, and this is welcome, but in the short term that is not enough. Every day that passes further erodes confidence in an institution that is a cornerstone of this State. The RTÉ board is the governing authority of RTÉ and the role of the board is to guide the corporate direction and strategy of RTÉ and represent the interests of viewers, listeners and staff, ensuring that RTÉ fulfils its statutory responsibilities in an efficient and effective manner.

We work independently of the executive board. As such the board of RTÉ is taking a lead in driving the following five objectives, supported by outside expertise as required. First is establishing the facts. From the moment the board was informed of a potential problem, we have worked to establish the facts. Within days of receiving the first Grant Thornton report, we published the details. We have since published the first Grant Thornton report and we commit to publishing the second Grant Thornton report as soon as possible. Accountants from Grant Thornton are currently on site in RTÉ. The board and I would also urge Dee Forbes to appear before this committee when she is able to do so.

Second is cultural transformation. Yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, I stated that in an organisation culture comes from the top down. The culture of an organisation permeates its leadership and decision-making processes. RTÉ produces excellent journalism and creative content but specific cultural issues around information silos and domineering hierarchies that shun transparency and foster bureaucracy are all too evident. The board will lead on addressing this.

Third is internal controls. This series of events has revealed grave failings in internal controls at RTÉ. Nothing less than an overhaul of such controls and work practices will suffice, and the board will oversee this process. Fourth is examining how RTÉ spends its money. We need to stand back and examine how RTÉ manages its money. This should start with a review of the highest-paid in the organisation. We will also look at those areas in which expenditure can be strengthened in pursuit of public service broadcasting, such as RTÉ’s digital capabilities. Fifth is the future strategy. The crisis has placed RTÉ in a dangerous place. The board, working with the organisation, will map out a future strategy to bring this organisation to a safer haven, an organisation that delivers the best in public service broadcasting, trusted by the public and employees alike. We need to strike that careful balance in achieving an organisation that can blend the agility needed to provide a public broadcasting service in an ever-changing market, while also having the controls and governance standards of an entity funded by the taxpayer.

I want to say something about the use of the word "talent". Words matter and the term, as it is currently used, reinforces a "them and us" culture in RTÉ. It implies some have greater worth than others. The first step in cultural change is to consign this term to the dustbin. I wish to restate the fact that more than 1,800 people work for RTÉ and I apologise to each and every one of them for the distress they are experiencing. Together we have a job of work to do to restore their confidence.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that Mr. Lynch wishes to make a brief statement.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

As interim deputy director general of RTÉ I concede that as an executive we failed in our collective responsibility around the events leading to the misstatement of payments to Ryan Tubridy. I wish to state again our deep regret for what has emerged in recent days. For this serious breach of trust with the public, we apologise. It is a fact that the application of Government procedures at an executive board level allowed for the partial and incomplete sharing of information so that individual members of the executive either did not have access to information or had information withheld from them. It is true that the executive board failed in its collective responsibility to act as a collective and failed to ensure good governance in this matter. Collectively, owing to the silent style of the procedures at the executive and an over-reliance on the prerogative asserted by the director general, we did not receive a comprehensive evaluation of Ryan Tubridy’s contract in full, including the way in which the payments were to be treated. We acknowledge and accept this failure, specifically by those members of the executive who were aware of the contract. I have spoken to Kevin Bakhurst last night and I understand from him that his first task when he begins on 10 July will be a complete reconstitution of the executive board of RTÉ.

Ms Katherine Licken

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le comhaltaí an choiste as an deis a thabhairt dom an ráiteas seo a dhéanamh. Public service broadcasting, as has been reiterated on numerous occasions in the last week, plays a critical role in informing, educating and entertaining the public. Critically also, it holds to account those in positions of responsibility and power. It is also frequently at the forefront in tackling misinformation. That is why, as the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and her colleagues in government have repeatedly emphasised over the past week, there is a need for RTÉ to show appropriate leadership and give a full account of all of the circumstances that led to the making of these payments and the understatement of earnings.

The Department is working intensively to support the Minister in ensuring that the governance structures and culture that enabled this issue to arise, are comprehensively addressed. In that regard, the Department and the Minister are engaging with RTÉ on the steps it is taking to deal with the matter in order to provide full clarification on all aspects of these transactions, including the timely completion of the Grant Thornton review into the payments between 2017 and 2019.

The Department is also working intensively with the Minister on the development of the terms of reference of the external review into governance and culture at RTÉ, which the Minister announced in recent days. This review will focus on whether RTÉ's governance framework is fit for purpose and in line with best governance practice in commercial Stater bodies, taking account of broadcasting legislation, the requirements of the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the findings from the various Grant Thornton reviews commissioned by RTÉ. The review will also consider RTÉ's organisational culture, the impact that culture has had on levels of trust, governance, transparency and communications, and what changes should be made. As part of this process, the Department is supporting the Minister in her engagement with key stakeholders, including representatives from the National Union of Journalists and Screen Producers Ireland, with whom we met yesterday. The details of the terms of reference are currently being finalised and will be published once they are approved by the Government.

As I have said, public service broadcasting is critical to the proper functioning of our society. RTÉ plays a central role in that regard. It is in the interests of us all that the issues at RTÉ are addressed in a comprehensive and effective manner. As the Minister has stated, the organisation has been badly damaged by the revelations over the past week. It is vital that public confidence in RTÉ is restored. I thank the committee for allowing me to make this statement. I am happy to answer any questions members have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Licken. I will now take questions from members, starting with Deputy O'Connor. He has 15 minutes, with all other speakers having ten minutes each.

Deputy James O'Connor

We all stand in solidarity with the ordinary workers in RTÉ, recognising how disappointed and let down they all are. That has been acknowledged here today but, ultimately, this is about responsibility and accountability. That is what we need to get to the bottom of today.

There are a number of points in the opening statement by the chairperson that contradict what has gone on within the organisation over the past number of years. The chairperson is not alone in that. She is joined by the former chairperson. It is an inescapable fact that the issues have been going on for some years. We need to speak to the former director general when she is in a state to speak to us. We acknowledge that she is unwell and wish her well in her recovery. It is imperative that such engagement happens. In the engagement at yesterday's meeting of the joint committee, significant blame was laid at that particular door. We are unable at this time to get answers to the questions that have been raised but we will do so when the opportunity arises.

In terms of rebuilding public confidence, the first question I have for Ms Ní Raghallaigh relates to the pay of the executive board of RTÉ. Is that something she will look at? Can she furnish the committee with details of the earnings of each member of the board in time for next week's meeting?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I said, one of the first things we are looking at is the salaries of, and payments to, the top earners in RTÉ, which would include members of the executive board. In terms of publishing those figures, it certainly is something we are considering to be done. It was discussed yesterday at the joint Oireachtas committee.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is not enough to consider doing it. The figures need to be published in full. Nothing else, frankly, is going to rebuild the public's trust in Ms Ní Raghallaigh's organisation. We need to know precisely how much money each member of the board has earned. In addition, details of the top 100 earners within the organisation should be made public. That is absolutely imperative.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I undertake to do that.

Deputy James O'Connor

Ms Ní Raghallaigh intends to do that.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does she have a timeline for the implementation of such a decision and when the public and this committee will be made aware of it?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It will be done as soon as practically possible in terms of being able to extract the information and make it available to the committee.

Deputy James O'Connor

We welcome that decision. We have arrived at this position as a consequence of the €350,000 in additional non-declared payment made to Mr. Tubridy between 2017 and 2022. We need to get to the bottom of how those arrangements were negotiated. Who were the participants in those negotiations? I understand these decisions were taken by the director general. Are there other members of the executive committee who participated in such negotiations who are present here today?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is correct.

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Ms Ní Raghallaigh identify them?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

They would not necessarily have all the information. Mr. Lynch would have had some of the information. There are people who are not here who would have had the information. The director of content would have had some of the information. The chief financial officer, Mr. Collins, would have had some of the information. Ms O'Leary-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh not see even from her reply to my question, which is quite a simple question, just how much of a mess has been created from a governance perspective?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I agree. That is why we are here. It is because there is that mess.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is it correct that the Renault deal first came into being in 1998?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I defer to Ms O'Leary on that question.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Renault had an ongoing sponsorship arrangement with RTÉ's commercial division. The first connection with RTÉ and any talent contract or any commercial client with a talent contract was at the end of February 2020, when I was advised by the then CFO that the contract negotiations with Ryan Tubridy were finishing, were being put in place for the following four to five years - it changed but it was four at the time - that there was going to be a commercial element and that they would talk to me about it. I was not brought in when the contract was being done. I subsequently was advised by the director general that the idea behind the commercial deal was that I would talk to the sponsor about including some personal appearances by Ryan Tubridy as part of the overall Renault relationship with RTÉ.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is Mr. Tubridy the only presenter within RTÉ that was receiving money as a consequence of Renault's deals with the organisation?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

He was the only person?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

No previous presenters involved in any RTÉ shows were benefactors of that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

To repeat, I am in RTÉ since 1997 and I have never before been across any element of a talent contract.

Deputy James O'Connor

Let us proceed to the decision, when that deal come to a conclusion, whereby RTÉ subsequently stepped forward to supplement Mr. Tubridy's salary by way of a very confidential arrangement. That is probably the most politically correct phrase I could use. Does Ms O'Leary believe that was appropriate?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Just to be correct, I spoke to Renault about year one only. There is some suggestion that Renault did not renew. We only spoke to Renault about year one. In year two, there was-----

Deputy James O'Connor

For the public's knowledge, what was the amount of money in year one?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The amount of money in year one was €75,000 paid for three appearances by Ryan Tubridy, which subsequently happened in 2022 because of Covid.

Deputy James O'Connor

I am going to ask Ms O'Leary again the question I already asked. Does she think what happened following on from that, whereby RTÉ stepped in with a confidential arrangement involving figures that were not made public, was appropriate?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was not aware that the figures were not going to be made public.

Deputy James O'Connor

To be fair, I am not asking Ms O'Leary whether she was aware of that. I am asking whether she thinks this was an appropriate arrangement.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

In hindsight, no.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is good to know that. Going back to Ms Ní Raghallaigh, who was aware of the figures? She said there are people in this room who would have had some knowledge of what went on.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, that is what I said.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I can answer that. Typically, how talent contracts are negotiated is that they are led by the CFO, with input from legal. Then, regarding the hours and services provided, I would input into that. In terms of talent choices, the director of content would input into that. In terms of Ryan Tubridy's deal and who was aware of it, regarding the terms of the deal and how much he would be paid, the director of content, the CFO, legal, the director general and I would be the people who would be aware.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does Mr. Lynch feel he has misled the public in a very underhand way that has had massive repercussions for the reputation of the organisation and the individuals involved, including the fact the director general is now gone? What does he think of what has been achieved?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The information I was provided with was that there was going to be a sponsorship arrangement whereby Ryan Tubridy would be paid if it was enacted and then there was his standard contract. Things progressed and then, obviously, there was a further commercial undertaking given that if the sponsorship contract was not enacted, RTÉ would underwrite the contract. If the Deputy remembers, that was during the Covid period and it was very difficult to enact the sponsorships.

Deputy James O'Connor

Half the country's employment positions were potentially impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic. I do not need to lecture anybody here about how difficult that was for everybody, no matter what role in Irish society they occupied from an employment perspective. RTÉ saw fit, in the middle of a pandemic, to contrive some type of scheme in order to maintain the pay - privately, in unpublished figures - of someone who was already one of the biggest earners in the organisation.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

At the point at which RTÉ paid Ryan Tubridy, that should have been declared.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is all well and good to say that now, but why did RTÉ not do that originally?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

What occurred in this instance was that the sponsorship agreement involved three events, which would happen publicly, so there was nothing-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Obviously, they could not proceed on account of Covid-19. Is that correct?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct, so at that point in time-----

Deputy James O'Connor

So RTÉ came in with the public purse and filled in the gap. That is what happened.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct.

Deputy James O'Connor

That is appalling.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

It is absolutely appalling. I totally agree. I had no knowledge that RTÉ had directly paid Ryan Tubridy.

Deputy James O'Connor

Who had?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I have looked at the correspondence and spoken to each individual executive board member over the past seven days, since this blew up. From what I can see, there was a commercial decision made on 7 May 2020 between the director general and NK Management that this contract would be underwritten. That is the only evidence I can see of a commitment. That was given then, and that commitment-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I will ask the witnesses the question again. Who among the organisation and the employees of RTÉ was aware?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

From everything I have seen, the director general was aware because she had given this undertaking to NK Management that if the sponsorship deal did not happen, RTÉ would pay the bill.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does Mr. Coveney sit in on meetings with the director general when there are negotiations in relation to the pay of RTÉ's top stars?

Mr. Rory Coveney

No, I do not. I have no role to play at all in the negotiation of top talent contracts and never did. They are not part of my role.

Deputy James O'Connor

In terms of the commercial activity relating to RTÉ, Mr. Coveney would have had a significant lead on a number of projects undertaken by the organisation. Is that not correct?

Mr. Rory Coveney

That is true.

Deputy James O'Connor

Questions were put to RTÉ yesterday by the Chairperson of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, Deputy Niamh Smyth, about the figures around the profitability of a commercial undertaking by RTÉ, namely "Toy Show The Musical". Can the witnesses give us the figures as to how profitable that undertaking was?

Mr. Rory Coveney

We have already shared substantial information with the committee about the problems of the project, the rationale for the project-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I watched yesterday's proceedings. The witnesses did not share such information.

Mr. Rory Coveney

We have made a substantial submission to this committee about the project, the rationale for it, the gestation, the research that went into it-----

Deputy James O'Connor

What was the outcome of that?

Mr. Rory Coveney

Not great, to be honest, but I-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Are you in a position to inform us what the losses were?

Mr. Rory Coveney

Not at the moment. We-----

Deputy James O'Connor

When will you be able to do so?

Mr. Rory Coveney

We entered into a whole series of commercial relationships in relation to this project which are sensitive, with third parties involved. We are happy to look again to see what we can share and come back to the committee in due course.

Deputy James O'Connor

My understanding is that it was an unmitigated disaster. Is that accurate?

Mr. Rory Coveney

It was not successful, but it was always envisaged to be a multi-annual project. We have decided not to proceed with it this year. We are looking at other options for it into the future and we do not want to compromise our capacity to negotiate with third parties in relation to those arrangements in the future.

Deputy James O'Connor

When it comes to accountability for money that is squandered within RTÉ, do the witnesses accept, on foot of the information that has come to light, that the structures of payment within the organisation are nowhere near fit for purpose? Look at the number of agency staff being employed, the key stars, the highest earners and the power Mr. Kelly had over RTÉ as an organisation. What stopped RTÉ from saying to the individuals involved that this was probably not tenable to continue with and that it wanted to fill its prime slots with people who have full-time roles and are hired within RTÉ's structure itself rather than allowing these agents to have such bartering power?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not disagree with the Deputy there. I think - I know - that is the way we have to go.

Deputy James O'Connor

Did the board of RTÉ never have this conversation? How did we get to this position where, ultimately, a PR catastrophe is the cause of our now having this conversation? Did the executive board of RTÉ not recognise before now that one individual had pretty much godlike power when it came to the presenters who were being allowed airtime on our most significant broadcaster?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Correct, and that is what we are looking at as to whether we continue to deal with agents.

Deputy James O'Connor

What is RTÉ going to do going forward from here?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is what I am talking about. I called out the five pillars: reviewing the internal controls; establishing the facts, which we have done, and the audit and risk committee has a role in that regard; cultural transformation; examining how the money is spent, and under that one would be looking at items such as those that have been raised here today, and-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I must ask about the Grant Thornton report currently being prepared by the RTÉ board for the audit and risk committee. This is an ongoing mess, and more information is coming to light with each day that goes by. Does RTÉ have the scope to allow for the extension of that report to include information that may come to light in the coming weeks?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Just to clarify, is the Deputy talking about the report that is currently under way?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes. The second report.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will let Ms O'Leary take that, but just to point out this-----

Deputy James O'Connor

That is fine. The time is limited.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Just in order that members are all aware, they have to remember that this was all initiated when the auditor, Deloitte, came to me and said there was a problem. We had a look at the problem and came back. The auditor said he was unhappy and he advised me to get forensic accountants in. As a result we immediately went to Grant Thornton and started this process and then gave the report. This is an example of the board and the audit and risk committee actually doing their job. We have now extended the terms of reference, and when they finish this one we have another job of work for them to do. So the answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes". We will extend the terms of reference of the Grant Thornton team.

Deputy James O'Connor

In conclusion, I think that on foot of the-----

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly.

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes, very briefly, and it is a conclusion. On foot of what that Taoiseach has said this afternoon and what the Chairperson of the media committee, Deputy Niamh Smyth, said yesterday, it is important now, given all this information and the lack of information the witnesses are able to provide in answer to the questions, that Ryan Tubridy be invited to appear before this committee as well as Mr. Kelly.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Munster.

Deputy Imelda Munster

My first question is for Mr. Collins. He was asked yesterday if he was aware of the problem with the invoices and he said no. About an hour later into the meeting the committee got the truth from him that he was actually aware of the issue in early March. He had previously said he was not aware of it before 17 March. He said that Deloitte had spoken to him, had flagged up concerns and was seeking an explanation, and that he spoke to the director general following that and then was to get back to Deloitte. Can he tell us what the conversation with the director general was and what she actually told him about the invoices? What explanation did she give?

Mr. Richard Collins

Sure. On 7 March Deloitte approached me, which would be normal. I would not be involved in the detail of the audit, but at the end of the audit if there were issues outstanding, they would approach me. They raised the issue of these invoices there and they asked me what they were for. I undertook then to speak to the director general about them. I asked the director general what they were for. She told me they were consultancy invoices relating to Noel Kelly Management and I relayed that back to Deloitte.

Deputy Imelda Munster

When she said they were consultancy invoices relating to Noel Kelly-----

Mr. Richard Collins

Consultancy invoices relating to services during Covid that Noel Kelly had provided.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Collins asked what those services were.

Mr. Richard Collins

I did, at a high level.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What did she say?

Mr. Richard Collins

The services related to how RTÉ restructured its operations-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Noel Kelly-----

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, to help with-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----was giving RTÉ advice.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, he was.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In what capacity?

Mr. Richard Collins

He was giving advice to RTÉ as to how we dealt with sponsors.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Collins is being a bit vague.

Mr. Richard Collins

To be honest, I got a high-level response from the director general. Deloitte was not happy with the response I was given, and I cannot and will not go there because-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I just want Mr. Collins to explain that because Noel Kelly was advising RTÉ on how to deal with agents during Covid-----

Mr. Richard Collins

During Covid.

Deputy Imelda Munster

And he was getting a €75,000 fee for that. What advice did he give?

Mr. Richard Collins

I do not know exactly what advice-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Oh, right, so Mr. Collins did not ask-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I did ask-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Hold on, sorry.

Mr. Richard Collins

If the Deputy just lets me finish-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is not Mr. Collins but I who am confused.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, if the Deputy would just let me-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

No, it is myself who is confused. Mr. Collins is the chief finance officer and there are two payments of €75,000. Deloitte flagged concerns about these with him. He spoke to the director general and she said the payments related to Noel Kelly giving advice about agents during Covid. We will hear the detail on what exactly that entailed. Mr. Collins thought, "Okay, that is worth €150,000."

Mr. Richard Collins

I did not think, "That is worth €150,000."

Deputy Imelda Munster

So, what was the advice? What did Mr. Collins learn from the €150,000-worth that he thought-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I cannot remember exactly how she explained it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It was not value for money, then, if he cannot remember it.

Mr. Richard Collins

I cannot remember and I am not going to speculate on what that was. I can come back to the Deputy. I probably have notes from then on what it was-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

How did Mr. Collins relay that to Deloitte?

Mr. Richard Collins

I relayed it back to Deloitte-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

By email or-----

Mr. Richard Collins

No, verbally.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Verbally, right.

Mr. Richard Collins

Deloitte was not happy with the response I gave to it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I would say so.

Mr. Richard Collins

It followed up.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I would imagine so. Mr. Collins is saying that, at the beginning of March, he knew nothing about the fact that these were top-up payments. He knew Noel Kelly was involved in some way but did not question it enough. He took the story that the director general told him, namely that there were consultancy fees to Noel Kelly because he was giving RTÉ advice on how to manage agents during Covid. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes. Not agents-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

What was it, then?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was not agents. I cannot remember exactly what-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ah, come on. Mr. Collins gave the nod for €150,000 and he cannot remember it.

Mr. Richard Collins

I did not give the nod. Sorry, let me clarify that. I never gave the nod; finance was not-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

But he did not ask questions as finance officer about value for money or oversight. If it was not about agents, what was it about?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was to do with how RTÉ was structured during Covid.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could Mr. Collins give just one sentence about what that entails? Was it that the executive board did not have the knowledge or expertise about-----

Mr. Richard Collins

It was advice that the director general had received on how RTÉ structured itself and presented itself during Covid. I cannot say any more than that because I would have to consult my notes and see exactly what explanation was given but I relayed back exactly what I was told to Deloitte.

Deputy Imelda Munster

And then, obviously-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I was not involved in approving the transaction at that stage; the transaction had happened. I was relaying back an explanation-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

But the auditors had flagged up a concern about the payments.

Mr. Richard Collins

They had flagged up a concern on-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Collins raised it with the director general. He did not question her pretty much; he took on board what she said.

Mr. Richard Collins

I took her explanation.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes. As chief financial officer, Mr. Collins thought it was grand and that he would tell Deloitte what the story was and go from there. That is what he is saying.

Mr. Richard Collins

That is what it was, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes. Would Mr. Collins say he is not effectively doing his job?

Mr. Richard Collins

I think that, at that stage, she gave what appeared to be a plausible explanation-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

That Mr. Collins cannot remember.

Mr. Richard Collins

I cannot remember the exact details of it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is just so ridiculous I am going to move on.

The commercial director, Ms Geraldine O'Leary, told me yesterday that she could not remember the precise detail on the headings of the invoices she raised. She could not remember whether it related to consultancy fees. I imagine she is extremely diligent. Did she check between then and now? She could not remember the exact detail.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I did not say I did not remember the term "consultancy fees". What I said was that I did not remember who had advised to put the term "consultancy fees" on the invoices, which is very different.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But she checked that out.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I know. I knew yesterday that the term "consultancy fees" was on the invoices, which were also given to me once the issue arose.

Deputy Imelda Munster

So, who advised?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

What I said yesterday and what I will repeat today is that I had a number of conversations with both the director general and Noel Kelly about the raising of these invoices. I cannot remember whether it was Noel Kelly who suggested it or whether it was the director general. Rather than make an incorrect statement, I have consistently said that I do not remember because it is the truth.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Knowing she was coming in here today, Ms O'Leary did not check between yesterday and today to have the answer for us whether it was Noel Kelly or the director general. She knew she was coming in here. Has she notes? She had a meeting with Ryan Tubridy's agent. She had a conference call with him in March 2022 or prior to that when the raising of the invoices was suggested or discussed. Is she suggesting that, at that stage, the director general did not say why they wanted to raise the invoices and that it was a guarantee?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

There are a couple of things here, and terminology. I repeat that it was either Noel Kelly or the director general but I am not sure which one. In the absence of being 100% certain, I believe it is correct to say that I do not remember because I do not. It was-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

But Ms O'Leary did not seek to find the information between yesterday and today.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I have been trying to find that information since March of this year. I have been through the Grant Thornton forensic accountant material and I have been 100% honest all the way through. I told Grant Thornton that I would not make a statement that I could not be 100% certain of, and that remains the case.

Deputy Imelda Munster

However, Ms O'Leary had that meeting with Noel Kelly.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I had a number of calls.

Deputy Imelda Munster

A conference call.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms O'Leary knows what I mean. A conference call is a meeting. She had that. She reckons it was either Noel Kelly or the director general who advised her to put "consultancy fees" down but she did not question that or say they were not consultancy fees. During the conversation with Noel Kelly, he would have said to Ms O'Leary what the invoices were for.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

And what did he say they were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was taking my instruction from the director general, who said-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

In the conversation Ms O'Leary had with Noel Kelly when he was seeking to have the invoices raised, what did he tell her the invoices were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Em-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Now, come on, be truthful.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I am------

Deputy Imelda Munster

What did he tell Ms O'Leary the invoices were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Just to be clear, I spoke to him about raising the invoices to send to the barter company, and in that-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms O'Leary was having a conversation with Noel Kelly about raising invoices but she did not know what the invoices were for.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I knew the invoices-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Seriously.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I knew the invoices were related to the €75,000 payment per year, which I had been across from year one-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

So Ms O'Leary knew-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

-----and I was not across in years two and three, but was asked to use the barter account to pay. I knew what they were for.

Deputy Imelda Munster

She knew they were for top-up payments for Ryan Tubridy.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But she still went ahead with them. She did not question anything. She was raising the invoices and putting them through accounts under the heading "consultancy fees", knowing full well they were top-up payments for Ryan Tubridy.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I had no idea whether there was a separate agreement. I knew in year one that Ryan Tubridy did a legitimate deal with Renault in respect of which three events happened. They happened in 2022. I knew there was nothing done through a commercial partner for these invoices but I did not know what other things Ryan Tubridy might be doing for RTÉ for that payment. That was not discussed with me.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could I ask just one very short question?

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is for Ms Mullooly in legal services. Does she have a view on any legal concerns raised owing to the creation of false invoices?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is it something that could be presented as a criminal offence?

Ms Paula Mullooly

No. We took specific advice on that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could there be company law or tax law breaches?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am not familiar with the specifics of that, but I would agree that it is highly inappropriate.

An Cathaoirleach

Could I ask Mr. Collins for clarification? He was aware that the €75,000 was for NK, Noel Kelly, in respect of consultancy.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

And he said it was it related to services for consultancy. In a vague way, he mentioned how RTÉ dealt with agents.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, how RTÉ structured itself during Covid.

An Cathaoirleach

No, he said it related to agents. Mr. Kelly is an agent.

Mr. Richard Collins

Sorry. If I said "agents", I wish to correct that.

An Cathaoirleach

Just so we are clear before we move on, was Noel Kelly getting payments of €75,000, supposedly under the heading of consultancy, as an agent to help RTÉ to understand how it should deal with agents? That is the picture that is being presented.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, it was not explained that this was to help Noel Kelly to-----

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Collins wrote the cheque and allowed the credit-----

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I did not allow the credit. I did not approve it and I did not write any cheque. I did not know who CMS Marketing were before this matter was queried by Deloitte. The explanation I was given by the director general was that the payment related to consultancy services that Noel Kelly had provided during Covid.

An Cathaoirleach

When Mr. Collins heard the name Noel Kelly and saw the reference to consultancy services to RTÉ, did alarm bells not ring in his head as the chief financial officer?

I fail to understand why. Did he not question that one bit?

Mr. Richard Collins

I was concerned but I knew the director general had a close relationship with Noel Kelly.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it okay because of that?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was not okay. The transaction had occurred at this stage. I was providing an explanation as part of the audit to Deloitte.

An Cathaoirleach

Your explanation here is ridiculous.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is an appalling vista we are facing. We have to acknowledge there has been huge damage done to public trust in a public broadcaster at a time when high-quality public broadcasting has arguably never been more important for countering the misinformation and disinformation that social media, in particular, tends to be awash with. There is huge damage done to the working relationships of people within RTÉ and to the morale of the many excellent people who are working within that organisation. That has all been acknowledged already.

I want to return briefly to Ms O'Leary on a detail she gave us. She said she only spoke to Renault about year one engagements, no hint at all of arrangements into year two. How many years was the original contract for? Was it a five- or three-year contract?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The Ryan Tubridy contract?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

My concern was the sponsored contract. We were coming to the end of year two of a three-year contract. This was in March 2020. We still had two months of that season to go and then there was a third year in the contract. The contract was due to end in May 2021.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

You only spoke about year one arrangements.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes. I did talk to the client about a potential extension of the contract beyond 2021 but obviously that was not pragmatic because he still had 15 months to run in his contract.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

My question then, and it may not be to Ms Geraldine O'Leary, is whether Renault was aware of the underwriting agreement.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was Renault aware that if it removed itself from this contract, RTÉ was left on the hook for the remainder of the payments?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Not only was Renault not aware of it, neither was I.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was there anybody who would demur from that position, who would suggest that Renault was aware of the underwriting? No. Were there any exit penalties for Renault, which was asked to enter into this contract? It would be fairly standard practice and procedure that if somebody exited a contract before end of time, there would be exit penalties attached.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Sorry, I am a bit confused.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It entered into a contract over a number of years.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

A broadcast sponsorship contract for the "Late Late Show" is what I am referring to, which is what my business is. It was in year two of a three-year broadcast sponsorship contract of the "Late Late Show".

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

And decided to end the relationship.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No, it did not. It was coming to the end of year two, season two, of a three-year broadcast sponsorship contract, which is standard practice in our business. I was asked to ask them if they would like to have an addendum to their contract which involved appearances by Ryan Tubridy. The broadcast sponsorship contract was up and running and in fact they renewed for the following year. The broadcast sponsorship contract was up and running. It was within the context of this contract I asked them if they were interested in three appearances by Ryan Tubridy, because it was connected to their sponsorship of the "Late Late Show", which he presented. Broadcast sponsorship ran its course and was renewed.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay, but without the additional element. It does not seem there was a great deal of protection for public funding on it. I want to take a look at the suspension of Ms Dee Forbes. The request for resignation happened first - we only found this out yesterday. It happened on Friday, 16 June if I am correct. Can Ms Anne O'Leary tell me whether I am correct in saying the recommendation that Ms Forbes be asked to resign came from the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct. As a result of the Grant Thornton report, I thought that what had occurred was significantly serious enough to ask her for her resignation. Subsequent to that, she decided not to reply to our letter on that so we then put her on suspension following a HR disciplinary approach.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was the recommendation to suspend also a recommendation that you brought?

Ms Anne O'Leary

It was a recommendation that the committee and I brought to the board and then the board approved that recommendation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Then it became a board decision both to ask for the resignation but also to initiate the suspension. Is that correct?

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct and then directly after that, the board created a smaller committee that was going to handle the HR and disciplinary issue.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I might be able to help with that as company secretary, just to set out the timeline. There was an audit and risk meeting on the Friday. There was a number of recommendations out of that, including the request to ask the director general to resign. I think the chair spoke to her in relation to that. There was a response by letter either on the Sunday or the Monday, I cannot recall. There was a board meeting on the Monday where the chair of the audit and risk committee brought the recommendations to the board of the audit and risk committee. The board agreed to set up a disciplinary sub-committee to look at the disciplinary matters surrounding the director general.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This is a decision with very significant implications. As a board member, when this was brought to the board, what was the rationale given for initiating these proceedings? The board must have been told, "We are recommending that we ask for her resignation and we are asking for that on these grounds." What were the grounds given?

Ms Anne O'Leary

The grounds were given of the Grant Thornton report that the members all have a copy of. I thought it was significantly serious.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That was it, it was as baldly stated as that, based on the findings of the Grant Thornton report.

Ms Anne O'Leary

One hundred per cent.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Very good. Thank you. I want to ask about the barter account, which has been much discussed. The value of transactions in and out is given to us in some of the details we have here. How many trading partners are represented within that barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

How many clients?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

In 2022 it was 56 campaigns, so probably about ten to 15 clients approximately.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would there be any credit or debit cards attached to the barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Not that I am aware of.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Not that you are aware of.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Not that I am aware of. It is something I would need to check but not that I am aware of.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

In terms of the type of expenditure that-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Sorry, can I ask the Deputy to ask me that question again? When he says a credit or debit card-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is about how it operates, whether there are credit cards. It is about transparency and having a good insight on how exactly this is being used. Is it also being used to fund things like travel? Is it being used to fund things like entertainment? What is the mechanism? What is the oversight mechanism in terms of making sure, if it is funding travel, for instance, or accommodation or entertainment, that those have a legitimate business purpose within the organisation?

Mr. Richard Collins

There were no credit or debit cards attached to it. Payments were made out of the barter account by giving an instruction to the barter company.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I want to be 100% clear that the barter company may use a credit card when they are paying for something. I cannot say, if that is what the Deputy is asking me. There is no credit card at our end but the barter company may use a credit card.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Just in terms of bare figures, €150,000 is what ends up being paid to Tuttle Productions Limited., which is the two tranches of €75,000. The transfer from the barter account, however, is €231,000. Correct me if I am wrong.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Correct.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Where is the €81,000?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The way the barter account works is that when the campaigns come through, 50% is cash and 50% is credits. Those credits are accumulated and reconciled monthly. We can use those credits for travel. Anything we have used them for has been client related up to now. At the end of the year, if there is money in the account we cash it out and the cash-out rate is 0.65. If there is €100,000 left in the account at the end of the year, it is cashed out at €65,000 and that is put into our revenue. The cash-out rate for the barter companies is 0.65.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This is all very opaque. In the end of the story here, has €150,000 in fact cost us €231,000?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

It has cost us €150,000 in cash.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am not sure I fully accept that answer.

I want to pick up on a statement by Mr. Lynch. At the very end of his opening statement, he said: "I have spoken to Kevin Bakhurst last night and I understand from him that his first task when he begins on 10 July will be a complete reconstitution of the executive board of RTÉ." That is a very significant statement. I want to give Mr. Lynch an opportunity to expand on it.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Thank you. I have been talking to Kevin over the last two weeks since I stepped up to be interim deputy director general.

We spoke this morning, particularly coming out of yesterday's meeting, about the register of interests. We are looking at immediately drawing up terms of reference for a register of interests for all senior editorial staff. In terms of the line here, though, it is up to the incoming director general to make all the necessary changes given what has happened.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

On that issue of a register of interests, will it be extended to presenters?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Absolutely.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Colm Burke.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank all the officials here today. I will open with the Grant Thornton report. Paragraph 2.2(g) states that "The Director General was not involved in the drafting, signing or implementation of this agreement (being the Tri-partite)". It would be set out and I am asking for a list of everyone involved in the drafting of that agreement and everyone involved in that agreement. It is important. The earlier statement said "No member of the RTÉ Executive Board, other than the Director General, had all the necessary information", yet the Grant Thornton report is stating what I just referred to. Can the witnesses reconcile these two statements?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Just-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

If I could possibly clarify that, the tripartite agreement referred to in the Grant Thornton report is the commercial agreement we did in year one between Renault, RTÉ and NK Management in relation to the three events.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can we have the names of all the people involved in that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

Okay. You might send that on to us in writing.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Certainly.

Deputy Colm Burke

I move onto the issue concerning the €75,000. I address this question to Mr. Collins regarding the invoice. If someone is acting as a consultant, are they not obliged to charge VAT on the fees they levy?

Mr. Richard Collins

It depends on where the invoice is invoiced to.

Deputy Colm Burke

No, the standard invoice would have a VAT component. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

A standard invoice would have a VAT-----

Deputy Colm Burke

When the invoice was received in RTÉ's accounts department, how come further clarification was not looked for on this aspect?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was because the invoice was being invoiced to a UK company and not an Irish one.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the scenario in relation to VAT in that case?

Mr. Richard Collins

No VAT is charged.

Deputy Colm Burke

Were you aware of the detail of the invoice, because these were described as "consultancy fees"? Surely any invoice would set that out. I have been involved in business for 30 years. Mr. Collins is a qualified financial adviser. Surely just having "consultancy fees" is not a sufficient description on an invoice? Would Mr. Collins accept this?

Mr. Richard Collins

I would say it is quite a sparse description on an invoice, I would agree with that.

Deputy Colm Burke

Was there not a duty then on Mr. Collins's part to raise a query regarding what these consultancy fees were for?

Mr. Richard Collins

I think, yes, in hindsight, there was. At the time, though, this invoice-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Okay. Let us go on.

Mr. Richard Collins

Right. Okay.

Deputy Colm Burke

How many more invoices went through like this where there were consultancy fees marked down?

Mr. Richard Collins

There were two consultancy fees. I did not see these-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Have you looked at other accounts where the description "consultancy fees" was used and those invoices went through the system without anyone raising questions?

Mr. Richard Collins

We have not done a detailed analysis of that yet.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is it not time to do such a detailed analysis if this is the-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I think it is and this was discussed yesterday. I believe the audit and risk committee, ARC, is going to look at this.

Deputy Colm Burke

Every other business in this country has its invoices robustly checked. I refer to any organisation. In a large organisation that is also a public service broadcaster, there is even more of an onus to cross-check everything that comes in.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes. If I can just explain what happened here, the barter account sat outside the normal system of controls in RTÉ.

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes. It is a slush fund. If we look at the definition of "slush fund", and I got this from Black's Law Dictionary, it is "A reserve of money held secretly by a company that [had] no accountability for its use". This is exactly what we are talking about. This is a slush fund, so let us stop talking about it being a barter account.

Mr. Richard Collins

Okay.

Deputy Colm Burke

There was very little accountability about the money going into it.

Mr. Richard Collins

There was. Had it sat within the internal controls system, for an expenditure of €75,000, there would probably have been-----

Deputy Colm Burke

You are in charge of the internal controls system. This is money going from RTÉ to a barter account where you do not even know what the money is for. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

The invoice was labelled "consultancy services". It was approved by the director general. From a control point of view-----

Deputy Colm Burke

You are the financial director. You have the opportunity to raise queries. You did not raise a query about this invoice. Have you raised queries concerning other invoices that were coming in during the last two to three years?

Mr. Richard Collins

I have not seen other invoices coming in just labelled "consultancy services".

Deputy Colm Burke

Is that not more reason for asking the question, if you have not?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, it is a reason now why we should go back and look at this.

Deputy Colm Burke

When you became aware of the query raised by the auditors, and they obviously were concerned, you still do not appear to have had the same concern, even after the explanation from the then director general.

Mr. Richard Collins

Look, the explanation that was given to me, again, was not a detailed one. I relayed this back to Deloitte and then it was in its hands to move with it. Things moved very quickly after that. It was not as though it was sat on.

Deputy Colm Burke

Did Deloitte raise queries in respect of any other item in the accounts at the time?

Mr. Richard Collins

On the accounts in general?

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins

No.

Deputy Colm Burke

This was the only issue?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, this was the only issue Deloitte raised.

Deputy Colm Burke

Was there not, therefore, an obligation on you to make sure the issue the company had raised was fully investigated?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was and that was what happened. When I spoke to Deloitte and gave the company the explanation, we concluded, Deloitte and I, that this was not a very detailed explanation. I suggested that Deloitte should speak directly to the director general, which representatives of the company then did.

Deputy Colm Burke

Turning to the barter account, we are talking about €115,380 being paid annually. This is an extra €40,380. Is this technically what we are talking about as a handling fee for the €75,000 or can we get a better explanation than what is being furnished to us?

Mr. Richard Collins

It is, effectively, as the Deputy said, a handling fee for the barter company.

Deputy Colm Burke

In other words, let us imagine a situation where I am in a legal practice and someone comes to me with a cheque for €75,000. That person says they do not want to send it on, asks me if I will put it through my account and says I will be given €40,380 for doing that.

Mr. Richard Collins

It is a fee to the barter company. It is accepting-----

Deputy Colm Burke

It is €40,380 for handling a cheque for €75,000.

Mr. Richard Collins

It is not for handling a cheque. Goods and services are received, and then it must find someone to sell those on. It is a transaction-----

Deputy Colm Burke

In this case, it was €75,000 that was forwarded to the agent for Ryan Tubridy and there was a charge of €40,380.

Mr. Richard Collins

The fee was-----

Deputy Colm Burke

-----35%.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is a handling fee of 35% being charged by any other organisation in the country? I have never heard of any other company charging a fee of 35% for one payment, and 35% each time. Would you not accept that you should have raised queries in relation to that barter account?

Mr. Richard Collins

Look, regarding the barter account, I brought it into the accounts, so everything was transparent there at the end of the year.

Deputy Colm Burke

Now-----

Mr. Richard Collins

In hindsight, yes, I should have gone a step further in early 2020. I should have just shut it down or brought it totally under finance's control. It was at that stage-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Is it under finance control now?

Mr. Richard Collins

It is under total control of finance now.

Deputy Colm Burke

Every item that goes through it can be clearly identified and, as a result, there is full accountability.

Mr. Richard Collins

Every item going through it will be budgeted first and then go through the internal controls system.

Deputy Colm Burke

In the last ten years, how much money has gone through the barter account?

Mr. Richard Collins

I will tell the Deputy now. I will do my maths on it. I would say it was probably between €1 million and €1,250,000.

Deputy Colm Burke

This was in ten years.

Mr. Richard Collins

In ten years.

Deputy Colm Burke

Why not use a normal payments system, rather than going through the barter account in this particular case? Why was there all the secrecy on this?

Mr. Richard Collins

I am not here to justify the barter account. I was not happy with it when I saw it first. I cannot speculate on why it was used. It looked like it was where expenses came up relating to the commercial division that had not been budgeted for. It was a way of absorbing those expenses without causing an overrun in the accounts.

Deputy Colm Burke

Having spoken about the commercial sector, regarding the raising of credit notes, who has the authority to do this?

Mr. Richard Collins

Divisional directors can raise credit notes.

Deputy Colm Burke

Any divisional director, therefore, can raise a credit note. Do they have to consult with the finance department?

Mr. Richard Collins

They would instruct the finance department.

Deputy Colm Burke

Would they set out the detail as to why a credit note is being issued?

Mr. Richard Collins

If the Deputy is asking if there is a form that is filled in, then the answer is "No", there is not.

Deputy Colm Burke

We are talking about a credit note here of €75,000.

Surely there must be a system in place. If giving a credit note to somebody for €75,000, surely Mr. Collins as the financial controller should understand what that credit note is for.

Mr. Richard Collins

Well the-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Any other organisation in the country: €75,000, no problem, just sign on the dotted line and we will give you the credit note.

Mr. Richard Collins

The credit note was approved by the director general. From a control point of view I was happy that - from a control point of view - the director general had signed it off. That gave me comfort.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses to Leinster House again today. On the opening statements, I welcome the change in tone from RTÉ today and the emphasis, obviously, on the deceptive nature of the transaction. I hope it is a company with greater transparency, not only here today but in the forthcoming weeks and months. The impact of this, as we have seen ourselves with journalists and other staff members who have been out protesting highlighting their concerns, is that morale in RTÉ is through the floor. For me, all of the staff and the tax-paying public, the trust has also been eroded. The mission statement of RTÉ says: "To enrich [which may be a poor choice of words given the discussion today] Irish life with content that challenges, educates and entertains". I suggest we would also look at that mission statement in the next little while.

I can also say it is unsatisfactory with regard to the director general, whatever her status. Yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, there was uncertainty about contracts. As I look at all the witnesses here, I wonder if all of their contracts are in order because there was really head scratching as to who had a contract, what was in order and what was not. It is unsatisfactory that we have an acting interim deputy director general who does not have the knowledge that we need. We also have other board members who are new and who cannot give us satisfactory answers. I am aware that an independent report is happening in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully within four weeks it will be reporting and that we as a committee can engage with the witnesses on that.

I will start off with Mr Collins. How long has he worked with RTÉ?

Mr. Richard Collins

I joined RTÉ in January 2020.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

From that point, Mr. Collins has said that he was concerned with the barter account. Yet he proceeded with it. Are there any other invoices or accounts that Mr. Collins has made payments to, substantial payments such as the €75,000, about which he has had concerns but that have been paid out, and which to this day he is not certain as to the origin or the necessity of those payments?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, there is nothing else.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is Mr. Collins certain, as the chief financial officer for the organisation, that there are no other similar payments, or payments to contractors, to employees, payments to subordinates within RTÉ or to those who supply services to RTÉ? Are there any such similar payments being made or arrangements having been made? Obviously, payments are being made in all sorts of other ways.

Mr. Richard Collins

You can never be 100% certain.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

You are not 100% certain.

Mr. Richard Collins

You can never be 100% certain. All I can say is-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Given the-----

Mr. Richard Collins

If I could just answer that. We have very good control systems within RTÉ, outside of this-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

From now?

Mr. Richard Collins

Aside from this barter account, the control systems are generally good in RTÉ. There is a requisitioning system and credit notes have to be done, there are levels of approval-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

But for credit notes it was just signed off, right? It is not a great system, as one can appreciate.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes but the commercial department is a fluid department and things happen in there where they need to give credits. They manage the revenue-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It comes back to finance though does it not?

Mr. Richard Collins

Ultimately, yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

With regard to the auditors, how long have they served as auditors for the organisation? How often would the organisation change auditors?

Mr. Richard Collins

They were changed and they took over with the 2018 audit.

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct. It was KPMG prior to that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How long had they served?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Much longer. It was 11 years.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome Ms O'Leary. I will ask Ms O'Leary about the information we gained yesterday on when people found out about what, when and who. Ms O'Leary is head of the audit and risk committee. The revelation yesterday was that the information was found on 16 March. Is that right?

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct. I spoke to the partner of Deloitte on 17 March. Originally he spoke to Mr. Richard Collins on 7 March and 9 March. I think that Richard spoke to Dee some time on 8 March. He had reported that there was an issue he was unhappy with.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

When did it come before the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary

On 17 March when he called me.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

So you had a meeting on St. Patrick's Day did you?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I had a call with him. I work full time. I work Saturdays and Sundays to do my RTÉ-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I understand. How come it took those three months for the Grant Thornton report to be completed?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I got on to Grant Thornton on the 21st, and on the 23rd, we had a board meeting. I explained to them the issues that had been highlighted. On the 29th, I got additional information-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is this March?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Sorry, yes, 29 March. Then we started on the terms of reference for Arthur Cox and for Grant Thornton, which were issued to them on 4 April. I was on with them, almost on a weekly basis, to try to see how they were doing. They had an awful lot of work to do. As they called it, it was their forensic accounting department, and they had a number of emails to go through to find out what kinds of conversations that people had.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is why it took the three months.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Absolutely.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How often had the audit and risk committee been meeting then, up to this issue?

Ms Anne O'Leary

We were meeting every second week.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Was that ordinarily every second week?

Ms Anne O'Leary

No. We would usually meet once a month but because of this, we-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Because of this there were these meetings. I understand

Ms Anne O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Has Ms O'Leary been on the board since 2014? Is that right?

Ms Anne O'Leary

November 2014.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Has Ms O'Leary always been the head of the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I have.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Ms O'Leary got the short straw then. With regard to the change in culture, which was referred to in the opening statements, given the length of time she served on the board, in Ms O'Leary's time has she seen a change in culture in RTÉ in that period?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I am afraid Deputy that I probably concentrated on the job that I was given by Moya Doherty, which was to look after audit and risk. Within audit and risk one has audit, finance-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I know what is in it.

Ms Anne O'Leary

-----business continuity planning; they did not have a risk register. I got all of those things in place, including very much strengthening the internal audit. Procurement had some difficulties and even security had difficulties, and I made sure we made huge changes in that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

From 2014, and Ms O'Leary's time on the board, up to 2016, 2017, 2018, was there a change in culture? Obviously, Ms O'Leary was having meetings every couple of weeks on the audit and risk committee. Were there things that were being flagged more often or more regularly or had things changed?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I thought the internal audit procedure had really improved things. We were getting information that we did not have before and we were able to make changes. Peadar Faherty is the lead internal auditor and he is extraordinary. He is really good and he made sure that new procedures were put in place and that people were trained. I thought there was a much better feeling that we were all working together.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

So this has come as a complete shock to Ms O'Leary.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Completely.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay and I thank Ms O'Leary for that.

At yesterday's Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, evidence was given that some RTÉ staff were given cars as brand ambassadors. Can Mr. Lynch speak to that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

RTÉ staff were given cars, so-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How many staff are we talking about?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

My understanding is I think they are contractors.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

You think or you know?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I know of one.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is that one staff member?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How does a contractor, who does not have the same terms and conditions, get the bonus of a car?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That would be a contractor. It would be a contractor who does some work for RTÉ and who then would have a set of other commercial relationships themselves.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is a pretty lucrative contract, would Mr. Lynch not think?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Absolutely but they might be doing a short-term contract in terms of presenting and so on. They would also have a set of other things they do for income.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What were the criteria by which a car was given to a contractor?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

With the criteria, anything like that needs to be approved by the line manager.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who is that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In this case It would be director of content.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Would they then relay to the director general, DG, or is there a head of human resources? How is that done or is it all done through the DG's office?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In terms of that process, I am not sure what happens after that, whether it is just approved locally or not.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

On the condition for a car to be given as part of the contract, is that organised by RTÉ?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No, that is not part. I am saying the RTÉ contract has nothing to do with the car. That could be presented-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

As a bonus, is it?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No. I am just saying there are some people who may have an arrangement with a car company but that has nothing to do with our contract. That is just to be totally transparent about it. I made inquiries inside and I believe there is one person who has been given a car.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who is that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

It is a staff member in RTÉ. That was disclosed to me last night.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. I presume that person is not here today.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy, very briefly now.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

On the risk register and what was said earlier, which was very welcome, does Mr. Lynch or Mr. Collins know whether RTÉ routinely pays appearance fees for guests?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes, it would.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What is the criterion?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Typically, a programme like "The Late Late Show” would not pay for guests. Then, maybe a comedy panel show would pay for guests.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is there control around that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who is in charge of that control?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In terms of commission programming, there is the IPU, the independent production unit. Within that, there is a finance function which does all the contracting with independent companies that are commissioned to make programming for RTÉ. All those fees would be agreed. There is a fees committee that would look at all the fees comparatively, look at the hours and the cost.

Deputy John Brady

In the opening statement of the Chair of the RTÉ board, Ms Ní Raghallaigh stated it appeared to her that this was an act designed to deceive. That is the core point. Is that view shared by the entire board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

Is that view shared by the executive?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In the evidence I have seen, yes. Payments were concealed to Ryan Tubridy.

Deputy John Brady

That view is shared by the executive.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

The crux of the matter is who set out to deceive and whether it was an individual, as some would like to portray it, or whether it was a number of people who came together to deceive. I am not sure if we will get to the bottom of that at this meeting but it is the crux of the question.

Returning to a point that was raised when the director of finance was asked when he was first approached by Deloitte, am I right in saying it was 7 March? At that stage Deloitte expressed concern about two of the invoices, each for €75,000. At that point, the finance director approached Dee Forbes and set out a narrative in which Dee Forbes stated that these consultancy invoices were for NK Management and related to how RTÉ restructured itself during Covid. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Richard Collins

Broadly, yes. I cannot remember the exact detail but broadly that is what it was.

Deputy John Brady

Was that in writing?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, verbally, and I communicated with Deloitte pretty much immediately afterwards, verbally.

Deputy John Brady

At that point, Mr. Collins expressed that he did not have any concerns around Noel Kelly being given this type of consultancy work. That did not set off any alarm bells or raise any flags of concern for Mr. Collins.

Mr. Richard Collins

At that stage, the expenditure had been committed so I was relaying what happened at that stage. The purpose of speaking to the director general was to find out what the background was to this. The payments were to a company controlled by Noel Kelly so it is obvious that they went to Noel Kelly.

Deputy John Brady

If he does not mind, for the record, how much is Mr. Collins paid as chief finance officer?

Mr. Richard Collins

I think that is a private matter. I think we are going to disclose our earnings.

An Cathaoirleach

The chair of the board said all those figures were to be published. Given that Mr. Collins is working for a public organisation, I would expect to hear that answer here today. The Deputy has asked Mr. Collins what his salary is. I would expect him to answer that question.

Mr. Richard Collins

I do not know what my exact salary is off the top of my head but I can give-----

Deputy James O'Connor

This is absolutely outrageous. The chief financial officer of RTÉ cannot tell us what he is paid. Are we supposed to buy that?

An Cathaoirleach

The chief financial officer has been asked a question by Deputy Brady who has the floor. Mr. Collins, what is your salary?

Deputy John Brady

This is extraordinary. It has taken over a minute to get a very basic answer.

An Cathaoirleach

We have senior staff from public bodies before the committee every week and we can get the figures for their salaries. RTÉ is supposed to be about truth, transparency and trust.

Mr. Richard Collins

I have no problem being transparent.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a very basic question and I expect the answer to it for the members.

Mr. Richard Collins

I believe my salary is around €200,000 base salary, plus a car allowance of €25,000. It is in and around that.

Deputy John Brady

I thank Mr. Collins for that. He has wound down a lot of my time and I hope the Chair will note that. Mr. Collins is paid an extraordinary amount of money. Essentially he became a message boy for Dee Forbes, the director general. Rather than doing his specific role, he took a message directly from the director general, did not question it and brought it back to Deloitte. Is that what Mr. Collins is telling us?

Mr. Richard Collins

I was asked to get an explanation. What more could I have done at that stage? I was asked to get an explanation - a more detailed explanation - of what these invoices related to.

Deputy John Brady

Is it not Mr. Collins's role to discover untruths and get proper, truthful answers in relation to all financial matters?

Mr. Richard Collins

If the issue had come on my radar earlier, then absolutely, yes. That is when it came on my radar. Deloitte was looking for an answer quickly on that because we had an audit and risk meeting shortly afterwards.

Deputy John Brady

On the meeting on 7 March, Mr. Collins went back to Deloitte and Deloitte went back to the director general at that point with his understanding and Deloitte was unhappy with the response given at that point. Yesterday, Adrian Lynch, when asked a specific question about Ryan Tubridy's announcement on 16 March that he was stepping down from his role presenting "The Late Late Show", said there was absolutely no way he would have known this was going on in the background when that decision was taken. Does he stand over those comments?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

To give context, because I knew it would come up, what I had actually done was I was trying to work out the day the director of content told me Ryan Tubridy had come into his office to tell him he was stepping down, so I went back and checked my email because I had sent him an email with a list of potential presenters. That was on 13 March. In my mind, I did not realise that the CFO had had contact from the auditors on 10 March or whatever. That is to clarify that.

Deputy John Brady

Ryan Tubridy could well have been informed by somebody that these concerns had been raised.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Based on the information from yesterday, it is possible.

Deputy John Brady

Did Mr. Collins have any conversations with Noel Kelly or Mr. Tubridy about this process?

Mr. Richard Collins

I had no conversations.

Deputy John Brady

Is anyone aware of any conversations or discussions that the director general may have had with the agent representing Mr. Tubridy or Mr. Tubridy himself?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The only conversations I was aware of were between the director of content and Ryan Tubridy.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. It would be reasonable to say that the process of uncovering these payments could well have influenced Ryan Tubridy’s decision to step down from his role presenting “The Late Late Show”.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I would say it is possible, looking at the information.

Deputy John Brady

It is possible. I want to focus on the first year of the tripartite deal and the payments. Ms O’Leary already stated that she negotiated and was responsible for that part.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes, I was asked to represent that proposal to Renault in March 2020.

Deputy John Brady

On the credit note issued by Renault, who issued-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

To Renault.

Deputy John Brady

To Renault.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

My initial meeting with the client, Renault, was on 9 March. The client said he would consider it and he would run it through his finance department. The week afterwards, Covid broke out so it was not a priority for him. By the time we reconnected on it and got to see how we could work through it, it was July 2020.

Deputy John Brady

Had they sought that credit note?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The client was very clear from the beginning that it would have to be cost neutral and that he did not have any incremental money. By the time it came to July, when we were raising the credit note, a large part of the value of what Renault should have gotten through its "Late Late Show" sponsorship had not happened because a key part of its broadcast sponsorship, which is the three-year contract I referred to earlier, included 20 tickets per week and hospitality at RTÉ. That value did not happen from 20 March through to September because of Covid.

Deputy John Brady

Where did the request for the credit note go from there?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I sent the request for the credit note to my finance manager in commercial and CFO.

Deputy John Brady

Did Mr. Collins see that request at that stage?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

What was the nature of the request? What was explicitly stated on it that the credit note was for?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was for a credit note to Renault in relation to the sponsorship. I was not aware of the terms of this tripartite or commercial agreement. I was not involved in negotiating that. To be honest, I did not cop what this was related to.

Deputy John Brady

Did not cop? Did Mr. Collins ask?

Mr. Richard Collins

I did not ask because I was not aware of the terms of the Renault relationship or the commercial relationship.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Collins was asked to sign off on-----

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not asked to sign off on it. It was processed and I was copied on an email then-----

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Collins was copied on an email.

Mr. Richard Collins

I was aware that-----

Deputy John Brady

Was Mr. Collins asleep at the wheel?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not. I was aware-----

Deputy John Brady

It appears Mr. Collins was asleep at the wheel on several fronts.

Mr. Richard Collins

The director general was involved in this. I took comfort, from a control point of view, that the director general was looking at this. At the time, the Deputy must remember, I was dealing with a number of major issues in the organisation. It was early on in Covid, it looked like RTÉ could run out of cash, we had an accounting system implementation that was not going well and could have caused major problems for the business and we had two big tax audits which put us under pressure on. My focus-----

Deputy John Brady

A final point.

An Cathaoirleach

Ten seconds.

Deputy John Brady

It is very clear that the guarantee kicked in from year one of the contract, not, as we were told, only in years two and three. In year one, RTÉ paid €75,000. RTÉ was propping up; essentially the guarantee was there from year one, contrary to what was stated by Ms O'Leary, that she was not aware of any guarantee to underpin-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I reiterate that I was not aware it was underwritten because I did not have sight of Ryan Tubridy's contract.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to suspend the meeting for five minutes. The next speaker will be Deputy Verona Murphy

Sitting suspended at 3.04 p.m. and resumed at 3.12 p.m.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank the witnesses for their appearance. At a time when we have the greatest housing catastrophe in the history of our State, we have overspending in our Department of Health and there are no checks and balances, billions have been wasted annually. We have a Government that displays complete incompetence in the management of the public finances. This story comes out of a clear blue sky – manna from heaven to distract from the issues that really impact ordinary daily lives. The Government is delighted with this story because it has taken the spotlight from it on the run-up to the Dáil recess.

I have watched the rolling media brawl for nearly the last week and a half. I must admit that I have some experience with media brawl. It is clear that this media circus can be reduced to the following facts. Certain people within RTÉ conceived a scheme of deceit for a number of reasons: first, to retain the services of Ryan Tubridy; and second, to portray to the general public and to the staff of RTÉ that Tubridy had taken a pay cut. The public, certain staff at RTÉ and this committee were lied to.

No checks and balances in any system will prevent deceit and that is just a fact of life. With a large organisation such as RTÉ, people run for cover and they immediately look for a scapegoat, or scapegoats, as the case may be. In what would appear to me generally is the case, those who identified the scapegoats were quite often themselves the cause of the controversy. The act of deceit is only surpassed by the more despicable act of scapegoating. Never have I seen more obvious scapegoating than in this debacle. RTÉ conceived the scheme of the deceit and induced Ryan Tubridy, whom I do not know personally, nor do I know his family nor any of the other people who have been mentioned in relation to Ryan Tubridy, with a pay package to stay. A number of members have confirmed this week that there was no wrongdoing on Ryan Tubridy's part. The people in front of us effectively dismissed Dee Forbes and then issued a lengthy press release scapegoating her. The quality of management should be judged by the way they deal with the situations they find themselves in. I can assure those present that what I have heard today and yesterday and for the last week would indicate to me that this management does not have the skill set to deal with what is before them. All they have done is look for scapegoats.

While RTÉ says Ryan Tubridy did nothing wrong, its actions do not support that position. Tubridy no longer presents his programme. In my view, the act of taking Ryan Tubridy off air was wrong. It has compounded the controversy, while at the same time it destroyed his reputation, in the scapegoating. It was ill advised and should only have been done with the approval of the board. It is as plain as a pikestaff to any person with a modicum of common sense that this act will cost RTÉ, and of course the taxpayer, far more in compensation to Tubridy than the €150,000 we are talking about that was legally due anyway. The bill for the action will have to be delivered at some point in the future.

I have one question for this delegation. Who made the decision to take Ryan Tubridy off air, bearing in mind the continuous statements that he did nothing wrong? I assume that one of two people can answer that question, because it certainly was not anyone who is not here.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That is ultimately my decision as editor-in-chief because I am the interim deputy director general. Why he is off air is because RTÉ has an obligation to be independent and impartial-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry but I cannot hear Mr. Lynch for some reason.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

As deputy director general it is my decision to take Ryan Tubridy off air, in consultation with the director of content.

Deputy Verona Murphy

And the director of content is not here.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Was that decision put before the board?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Mr. Lynch telling me that in his capacity with someone who is not here – the director of content – he made a decision, which in effect has exposed RTÉ and the taxpayer to hundreds of thousands if not millions in compensation? That is the decision made by him.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am the editor-in-chief. Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So Mr. Lynch made that decision. What was his rationale? He made the statement also that he has done nothing wrong.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

As I understand it, from legal advice-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Mr. Lynch saying now that he did something wrong?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So Mr. Lynch continues with the statement that Ryan Tubridy has done nothing wrong.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

It is not wrong. He has done nothing illegal. The contract that Ryan Tubridy engaged with is legal.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is there a difference? Is Mr. Lynch inferring a difference?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

There is a difference between the editorial-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Mr. Lynch think when it comes to compensation there will be a difference? Because they will only be interested in the legal element of it. We are back with the question I put to Mr. Lynch. Will he resign over the compensation that will be paid to Ryan Tubridy?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

As I said in my opening statement-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is a binary question. The answer would be "Yes" or "No". Will he resign and make himself accountable for a decision that he can be sure has ruined Ryan Tubridy? He has been taken off the air under the assertion by RTÉ that he has done nothing wrong. Mr. Lynch did not say that he did not do anything illegal. He said he had done nothing wrong. I am sure that will be brought up a number of times to Mr. Lynch. Will he resign: "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That would be a matter for the incoming director general.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The decision was made by Mr. Lynch with just one other. I will turn to Ms Ní Raghallaigh. Is she happy that, without a shadow of a doubt, she has been exposed now, as the chair of RTÉ, to compensation?

We are all of a frame of mind here commercially that we know the realm of these types of things will run into hundreds of thousands, if not millions. He is not the only person who has been mentioned. It has been the assertion of RTÉ, from both Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Mr. Lynch, that he did nothing wrong yet we are faced with a big bill. How does Ms Ní Raghallaigh feel about that decision being made, in which she seemingly had no act or part?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

To clarify---

Deputy Verona Murphy

No-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

This pertains to the Deputy's question. It is not the role of the board to get involved in editorial decision-making.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Excuse me for one second-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The role that the editor-in-chief-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

This refers to editorial decision-making. Who is the editorial decision made by? Are we back to Mr. Lynch?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The editor-in-chief.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Who is?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Mr. Lynch.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is Mr. Lynch at this point in time. Therefore, really, all the bluster that Ms Ní Raghallaigh has come in here with about what she is going to do is only bluster, is it not? The witnesses have exposed RTÉ among them with a massive bill for compensation to someone they assert as having done nothing wrong. They have not just thrown them all under the bus, they have backed over them and reversed at speed. Can Mr. Lynch tell me whether he is going to be accountable in the future for when the compensation is paid? If Ryan Tubridy did nothing wrong, what was the basis and rationale for taking him off the air and paying him while he is off the air and paying another presenter to do his radio programme? Is Mr. Lynch going to be accountable?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes, I will be completely accountable for it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So, Mr. Lynch will resign. He is going to confirm today that he will resign when that happens because as sure as night follows day, that is going to happen.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No, I am just saying I am taking full responsibility for the decision for Ryan Tubridy not to be on air.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry, Chair, we need to clarify that. Is Mr. Lynch saying he will resign and be accountable?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

For that decision, no.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well, then, talk is cheap.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We accept the witnesses' appearance here before us today and appreciate their co-operation. Back in September 2020, RTÉ campaigned on "Truth Matters". I have to assume today that all of the witnesses in front of us at the Committee of Public Accounts are here to tell the truth. However, I still cannot find where the truth is or how we can determine the real sequence of events that occurred. Certainly, that reminds me of a famous line from Theodore Roosevelt in 1912, who said that looking for the truth is like nailing jelly to the wall.

After yesterday's committee meeting and what we have heard again today - we have been in public session for nearly two hours - many facts are still unknown. We want even further detail with regard to the sequence of events. I will direct this question to the chief financial officer, CFO, Mr. Collins. With regard to RTÉ's payment to Mr. Noel Kelly for services provided during Covid-19, these were really payments for Ryan Tubridy and Renault. Is that correct, yes or no?

Mr. Richard Collins

According to the Grant Thornton report, yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I will clarify that they had nothing to do with Renault.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am sorry, Ms O'Leary. My questions are directed to the CFO. Mr. Collins said earlier that he needed to consult his notes. What is contained within his notes that would have led him to previously state that?

Mr. Richard Collins

I am sorry; I did not get the Deputy's question.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Collins said previously that he needed to consult his notes in relation to the questions that we asked previously.

Mr. Richard Collins

In relation to the explanation I gave-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins

-----to Deloitte.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Would Mr. Collins determine these types of payments in a serious manner with regard to their intent, as Deputy Burke discussed, around consultancy fees and the obligations around VAT exemptions that were put through a barter?

Mr. Richard Collins

RTÉ was not making the payment there so VAT was not an issue for RTÉ. It was the barter company. The invoice was to the barter company, not to RTÉ.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The chair of the board outlined in her initial statement that there were deceitful practices in play here. Would Mr. Collins agree with that?

Mr. Richard Collins

I would, yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Would "Prime Time Investigates" call it fraud? Would Mr. Collins agree?

Mr. Richard Collins

We have had legal advice to say that it is not fraud.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In what context?

Mr. Richard Collins

It has been looked at as part of the Grant Thornton review. Arthur Cox has looked at this and given advice, or given an opinion, and there is not fraud involved here.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Raising invoices for something knowing that it is not what it is-----

Mr. Richard Collins

It is concealment and deception.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Would Mr. Collins not determine that - wrongfully knowing - to be fraud ?

Mr. Richard Collins

It depends on who the fraud is against and whether anyone has lost out. My own opinion is that maybe the taxpayer was defrauded, but-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

What other external contractors did RTÉ pay for advice during Covid-19?

Mr. Richard Collins

Off the top of my head, I am not aware of any other contractors that were paid for advice. On the IT side, we would have taken advice on setting up and structuring ourselves to work remotely and that, but-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Would RTÉ have issued any credit notes during Covid similar to this?

Mr. Richard Collins

Not similar to this, no.

Deputy Alan Dillon

This is, therefore, a once-off.

Mr. Richard Collins

It looks like it, yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Was Ms O'Leary consulted around 7 March, or before 17 March, about the Deloitte query?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No.

Deputy Alan Dillon

No one communicated to her that these issues were being flagged.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No, I was advised by the head of legal and the head of HR that I was going to be contacted by Grant Thornton to engage in a process.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why did the CFO, Mr. Collins, not raise that with the person who was in a position to authorise these invoices?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Raise which?

Mr. Richard Collins

I am sorry; is that question to me? I had raised the issue with the person who had approved the invoices and Deloitte was then put in contact with them to get an explanation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Did RTÉ pay for the three Renault events? How much did that cost?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes. I will clarify before I say that and go straight back to it. It is very important to say that Renault was not involved in years two and three. When the Deputy referred to the invoices that went through the barter company, they had no connection with Renault. I want to be very clear about that. In year one, yes, Renault paid Noel Kelly Management for the three events but, ultimately, it got a credit note, so it was cost-neutral.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How much was the credit note?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

It was €75,000.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How much were the events that RTÉ subsequently paid for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

They were €25,000 each for the appearances.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How much was it to actually host the events?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Hosting the event was €30,586.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Are these events accounted for in RTÉ's annual audited accounts?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The transactions are certainly recorded in the barter account, which is now completed and final, so yes.

Mr. Richard Collins

They are recorded, yes, I can clarify that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In 2022.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to other events that RTÉ would host, be it hospitality or events through the barter account, can Ms O'Leary give us some recent events that RTÉ would have paid for through a barter account and the types of events?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

For example, there was an agency event in a venue in town.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In Dublin.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

In Dublin; sorry, apologies. That was approved on 28 January.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Collins referenced €1.25 million over the last ten years through barter accounts.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes, I-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Ms Collins give us the top three?

Mr. Richard Collins

Maybe I can do that because I have the details here in front of me.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Is the Deputy looking back historically now?

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am looking at the period 2017 to 2020.

Mr. Richard Collins

In 2019, there was €111,000 for travel and hotels to bring clients to the Rugby World Cup.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can the witness identify those clients?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I cannot.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why not?

Mr. Richard Collins

They are not on this report I have here.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Ms O'Leary do so?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I can but I would have to get their permission, but of course I knew who they were.

Deputy Alan Dillon

This was taxpayers' money.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I will get their permission.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can you give us one more example from the top range?

Mr. Richard Collins

Ten-year IRFU tickets were bought. They cost €138,000 through the barter account.

Deputy Alan Dillon

A sum of €138,000 of taxpayers' money through a barter account. Can Mr. Collins give me one more example?

Mr. Richard Collins

For the Champions League Final in 2019, €26,000 was spent.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What does the chair of the board make of what we are being told here today in relation to the transactions in the barter account?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It is outrageous. Expenditure like that should go through the procurement system. I believe that has now been put in place. It would be up to department heads to validate and request through the procurement system if they are going to do entertainment or sporting events on that scale in order to entertain advertising agencies.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I want to bring Ms Ní Raghallaigh back to her request to the director general for her resignation. Why did Ms Ní Raghallaigh not call the Minister at the time?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I explained to the Minister this morning, when she asked me on Saturday when I met her, what Ms Forbes's status I told her that she was suspended and that she was in a disciplinary process.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Did the witness not think this was really important information to present to the Minister at the time?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, I do now. However, at the time, it was a part of a chain of events. I apologised to the Minister for not giving her that information at the time.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why did Ms Ní Raghallaigh go on the RTÉ "Six One News" and not indicate that she had actually requested the resignation of the director general?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not think I was asked that question.

Deputy Alan Dillon

You mentioned disciplinary processes.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, because that was part-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Ms Ní Raghallaigh did not establish the full facts of what was happening. Was that not a huge mistake?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

She was in a disciplinary process at that point. I could not start discussing publicly what was in process.

Deputy Alan Dillon

If there was a process in place, why did Ms Ní Raghallaigh agree to go on RTÉ news when she knew that she would not give a current picture at the time?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I agreed to go on RTÉ news to be able to give the information that I had. I did so under legal advice, particularly pertaining to employees and their rights. That is the legal advice I took.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. The public position at that point was that she was actually on holidays. Is that correct?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have the benefit of having sat through two nearly full sessions now. There has been a lot of discussion about the barter account and about invoices and so on. I want to come back to the issue of the tripartite agreement. In what was an excellent piece of public service broadcasting on "Prime Time", Mark Coughlan gave a great summation of what has happened here. He described the tripartite agreement as involving the three parties - Mr. Ryan Tubridy, RTÉ and Renault. The Grant Thornton report consistently says that this was a cost-neutral agreement for the sponsor. I want to know about the knowledge of the tripartite agreement prior to March of this year, and knowledge of it being cost-neutral. I will ask each of the witnesses this question. Was Ms O'Leary aware of a tripartite agreement and if so, was she aware of it being cost-neutral?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes, I was responsible for that agreement with NKM-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Was Mr. Collins aware of a tripartite agreement and was he aware of it being cost-neutral?

Mr. Richard Collins

I was aware that RTÉ was trying to put arrangements in place to give Mr. Ryan Tubridy the opportunity to earn additional income. I was not aware of the details.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To my question about knowing about the agreement being cost-neutral the witness has said he did not know.

I will ask Mr. Coveney the same question. Was he aware of it being cost-neutral?

Mr. Rory Coveney

I have no knowledge of any of these arrangements.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The witness has no knowledge of a tripartite agreement.

Was Ms Doherty aware of a tripartite agreement and it's cost-neutral nature?

Ms Moya Doherty

Absolutely not. As chair of the organisation for eight years, I was not aware of a slush fund. I was not aware of clandestine payments, and I was not aware of a tripartite agreement.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Was Ms Mullooly aware of the cost-neutral nature of a tripartite agreement?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I was not aware of the cost-neutral nature of it. I was aware when the tripartite agreement came in from Noel Kelly Management in, I think, March 2021. I was copied on that email.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Since March 2021 Ms Mullooly has been aware of the tripartite agreement and the terms of it. Is that correct?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay. I will not ask the other witnesses the same questions. I am assuming that either by the evidence they have given already, or their distance or time served in the organisation that they would not be aware. Am I correct in saying that nobody else was aware of a tripartite agreement or its cost-neutral nature?

Let me come back then to the second part of what Mark Coughlan described to us on 27 June. He said it seemed surprising the RTÉ did a deal, which saw its income from sponsorship reduced in exchange for guaranteeing Mr. Tubridy's income. He said that RTÉ agreed to give Renault a discount of €75,000. Renault agreed to pay €75,000 to Mr. Tubridy. Through his agent, Mr. Tubridy agreed to attend certain events. We all know that people make arrangements outside of their employment or their contract. We often use the phrase "nixer" for this arrangement. However, in this situation, the nixer was actually initiated by RTÉ. The organisation initiated the concept of a tripartite agreement where it voluntarily reduced its income. Is that correct, Ms O'Leary?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I met the client and discussed it with him. He was very clear that it was contrary to his wishes. I communicated this to the director general. My priority as commercial director is client relationships. I said that the client was very clear that he would not add an additional €75,000 to his existing contract.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I want to be clear on this. The €75,000 would not be paid to RTÉ, and it would be paid to Mr. Tubridy.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The clarification to the director general was that it had to be cost-neutral.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As the commercial director, is the witness usually in the business of voluntarily giving away €75,000 of revenue?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Absolutely not.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In that case, why did the witness do so?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was advised by the director general that this was what I was to do.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The witness was instructed by the director general to forego €75,000. At that point, the witness was aware that the €75,000 would not be included in payments made directly from RTÉ to Mr. Ryan Tubridy. Is that correct?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was not aware of anything to do with declarations. What I was aware of, which was critical, was that we were reducing our sponsored forecast income for that year.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Surely Ms O'Leary had to have been aware of the arrangement? The deal was structured in order to keep €75,000 of RTÉ's income off the books, and that it would be paid directly from the sponsor to Mr. Tubridy. That is what the deal did. It took €75,000 of income, that otherwise would have come to RTÉ, and paid it directly to Mr. Tubridy. How could you not have known that the money would never be included in declared payments for RTÉ?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I apologise if this is a frustrating answer for the Deputy, but I have nothing to do with the release of top tens. I had no idea about what that €75,000 represented as part of the overall contract. If there was a motive, which there appears to have been, to conceal, that was not clear to me because I did not have-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Ms O'Leary's answer is simply not credible. It is like as if she was working in advertising in a bus company, and we said to the advertisers: "Do not to pay the bus company directly, pay the bus driver instead and then nobody in the garage will know that the bus drive is on more money than everybody else."

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

What I did know was about how the payment was happening; I did not know that it was designed to conceal Ryan Tubridy's earnings. I did not know that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Ms O'Leary know that RTÉ forwent €75,000 worth of income that it would otherwise have received?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Ms O'Leary know that that income was going to Ryan Tubridy?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So RTÉ was paying €75,000 to Ryan Tubridy through a vehicle called the tripartite agreement.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

The additional element is that by the time we came to discuss the credit note, we already had a value deficit with Renault; so we would have had to give it a credit note anyway.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will return to the credit note. I have to ask Mr. Collins the same question. Does he accept that the tripartite agreement was essentially a vehicle to keep €75,000 of revenue that would have otherwise come to RTÉ off the books so it would go directly to Ryan Tubridy?

Mr. Richard Collins

I know now. Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Collins's evidence is that he had no involvement in the negotiation of the tripartite agreement, no involvement in its working out and no knowledge of it being cost neutral. I am sure he is aware of the RTÉ statement that was issued this week. In the statement, under the second point, it says:

Once it has been agreed in principle by the relevant editorial lead the process of negotiating the contracts of RTÉ's top 10 most highly paid on-air presenters is conducted by the CFO, with advice from the legal department.

That was either Mr. Collins or Ms Breda O'Keeffe, the previous CFO. Is that correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

This contract would have started with the previous CFO and I-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Collins worked from January up to March, but there are also further dealings up to June. So between January and June, when the RTÉ statement says Mr. Collins should have been taking the lead on the contract, he had no involvement.

Mr. Richard Collins

No. The Ryan Tubridy contract was made up of two parts. There is the so-called five-year contract and then there is the commercial. I took over the five-year contract-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Collins had no knowledge of the tripartite agreement.

Mr. Richard Collins

I was not involved at all in the tripartite agreement.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That was not my question. My question is whether Mr. Collins had any knowledge of the tripartite agreement.

Mr. Richard Collins

The only knowledge I had is that there was an attempt to generate earnings for Ryan Tubridy, that RTÉ would facilitate that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Why would RTÉ be-----

Mr. Richard Collins

But I was not aware - I am sorry, just to answer Deputy McAuliffe's question-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Why would RTÉ be party to an agreement to generate earnings for Ryan Tubridy?

Mr. Richard Collins

I do not know. That is what was agreed as part of this deal.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

RTÉ could only have been party to a tripartite agreement if it had an involvement in it. The only involvement it could have had is either to make the payment directly to Ryan Tubridy or to forgo income coming from Renault. When Mr. Collins was aware of a tripartite agreement, he must have been aware that RTÉ-----

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not aware of a tripartite agreement.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Collins was not aware of any tripartite agreement.

Mr. Richard Collins

No. I was aware that RTÉ was trying to broker or facilitate additional income for Ryan Tubridy, but that could have been just putting Ryan Tubridy in contact with clients.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The Grant Thornton report puts it more bluntly. It also refers to the legal department. I think Ms O'Leary has already said she was aware of it. In 2.8(b) of the auditor's report, it says: "The Commercial Brand were prepared to engage but their engagement would have to be [on a] cost neutral [basis]." Mr. Collins has stated that. It says in 2.5:

The RTÉ Legal Team's understanding of the contractual obligations in relation to the phrase €75,000 from commercial relationship is: (a) That €75,000 of the RTÉ sponsorship income from the third party commercial sponsor would be paid directly to the Talent by the third party commercial sponsor.

Ms Mullooly said she was not aware of the cost-neutral nature of the payment, but she was aware that money would be paid directly to Ryan Tubridy from the commercial agent.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Just to be clear, I was not the person negotiating the particular contract, but I have-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

When the phrase "RTÉ legal team" was used-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

There was a solicitor providing legal advice in respect of this.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So the RTÉ solicitor was aware of the cost-neutral nature of the agreement.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No. The RTÉ solicitor, I think, was aware that ... As is stated in the Grant Thornton report, the RTÉ solicitor was of the view and was told that the €75,000 would be paid by the commercial partner directly to Ryan Tubridy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Knowing that it was reducing the fee that would otherwise normally have come to RTÉ.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, the solicitor would not be aware of credit notes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Surely a solicitor would query why RTÉ would be party to a negotiation that had nothing to do with it.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, the-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Unless it was reducing its income or in some other way being involved in the activity, why would RTÉ be involved in raising money separately for Ryan Tubridy?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The contractual arrangement comprised the first part. There were a couple of side letters and then this commercial arrangement. The commercial arrangement was initially to be brokered by RTÉ, but the agent was insisting that RTÉ be a part of it and that the agreement for that would be that €75,000 would be paid directly from the commercial partner to the presenter.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have just one last question.

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am conscious of the exit fee of €120,000 that was referred to. I am also conscious that it is the subject of a Grant Thornton report. For anybody looking in at that, most people are familiar with the term "balloon payment" where you have a payment at the very end and that reduces your payments in the immediate term. If there was a balloon payment at the end of a contract, that would substantially reduce the declared income each year for Mr. Tubridy. If the €120,000 had to have been paid, would the declared income of Mr. Tubridy have increased by €120,000? Can Mr. Lynch see how that would be a significant issue when RTÉ was looking for a 15% reduction from everybody else? Not only am I suggesting that this is an orchestrated instrument to reduce his payments, I am also suggesting that putting the exit payment, or the balloon payment, at the end, that also sought to reduce his annual declared income over several years.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

First, I was not aware of the cost-neutral element within this. Second, in terms of what Grant Thornton will tell us – there has been a lot of confusion about the €120,000 – is how it has actually been treated in the accounts. Was it used to reduce Ryan Tubridy's overall earnings in that period of time, as a kind of retrospective credit? Grant Thornton is investigating that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

But it could have been used to reduce his declared income.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I welcome the witnesses. I have been knocking around here for a good while and this is the most extraordinary meeting I have had in the Committee of Public Accounts, and I have been to a lot of them. I have so many questions I could be here all day. I know I will have two rounds. I want to make a series of points first and then I will get to the questions.

First, I hope Dee Forbes does come in. If she does, I reckon it will help with a range of the issues that have been raised here. I do not think it would necessarily be good for a number of members of the executive.

Second, by next Thursday, I want the witnesses to provide the following: a copy of all bank accounts for RTÉ, where they are located and how often they are reconciled; and a copy of all barter accounts. On the latter, I include ones in TG4 or anywhere else, going back for the past 20 years. That is how far we have to go back. I remember the scenarios whereby a bike was brought on to the show for a former host of "The Late Late Show" or the golf clubs that were given to Ryan Tubridy. We have to go back a long way. I want the barter accounts for the past 20 years. If there are more of them, so be it.

The witnesses have already agreed to provide details of their salaries to us next week, but I also want to know if there are any pension top-ups or if there are any other benefits.

In the context of brand ambassadors and car payments, when did car payments come in or any other form of payment to supplement people's incomes? A former colleague, Tommy Broughan, raised the issue of cars for RTÉ stars in the Dáil in 2005. That tells us how far back we are looking. When did they come in?

I also want a full audit over the past five years of appearances by the top 20 stars in RTÉ on shows that they were not involved in. This cross-fertilisation is also valuable. We need to find out what was going on, if this was part of any deal, etc.

Can we get a full list of all talent agents that have done contracts with RTÉ? Do any of the talent agents have any shares or ownership of any shows that have been contracted by RTÉ? I ask the witnesses to provide a full audited list.

On the barter accounts, RTÉ listed out some of the issues regarding tickets etc., including Champion’s League finals and rugby. I note the former head of RTÉ news and current affairs was at the Champion’s League final in 2019. It is up publicly; that is the only reason I can say it. Can we get a full list of all payments, all tickets and where they were divulged to?

I will get into some core questions and would appreciate short, sharp answers. I am not trying to be rude, rather it is just that I do not have much time. I think I am the only person in this committee who is a former Minister. I want to say this to the chair, and I do not know you. If you went to a meeting with me and did not tell me what you did not tell the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, in relation to asking for the resignation of the director general, you would not be in the position now. I do not think any Minister would put up with that and I do not expect this Minister to put up with it. That is information you have to tell the Minister. I went through some of the most difficult things as a Minister during my period and that is something you would have to tell the Minister. I ask the previous chair whether, in her opinion, she would have told the Minister.

Ms Moya Doherty

Yes, and I-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Thank you. That is all.

I wish to ask a question of the Department official who was here last week and who, by the way, neglected to tell any of us anything about this. I want to know the following. Would she have expected that her Minister would have been told in that meeting?

Ms Katherine Licken

As the chair said, there was a process ongoing and that culminated in suspension. That is what she told the Minister.

Deputy Alan Kelly

No, but she asked for her resignation and she did not tell the Minister. Would Ms Licken have expected that she would have told her?

Ms Katherine Licken

I would have expected to tell her that there was a disciplinary process.

Deputy Alan Kelly

But not that she had asked for her resignation.

Ms Katherine Licken

I would be conscious that there is a disciplinary process and that she has to take legal advice on what she has to say.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Can I ask Ms Licken the following questions as a representative of the Department? We need to focus in on the Department much more than we have. When was the Department or any official aware of a barter account or barter accounts?

Ms Katherine Licken

We were not aware of the barter account or this issue until Thursday, when it was divulged.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Nobody in the Department was aware until Thursday about the payments to Renault - that whole saga - or the issues in respect of Ryan Tubridy's salary until that Thursday.

Ms Katherine Licken

No. We were aware there was an issue pending. Obviously the-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

When did you become aware and in what context?

Ms Katherine Licken

We were aware back in March. We had been informed that an issue had arisen-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

What date?

Ms Katherine Licken

At the end of March, that an issue had arisen in the context of the audit and that the audit and risk committee had commissioned an independent external review. We were aware-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Okay. That is fine. I think the rest of it is on the record.

I want to get through two more questions and possibly a third. Can we get a copy of this famous Teams call that took place – the tripartite?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That would be for the director of legal.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Presumably, that is recorded.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, it was not recorded. It is not recorded.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Is that not standard practice for calls like that?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not believe so, no.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There are no minutes.

Ms Paula Mullooly

There is a note of the call taken by the lawyer who was present at the meeting.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Who was the lawyer?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not want to name the lawyer in question. It is not fair. She has acted appropriately throughout this.

Deputy Alan Kelly

No problem. That is fine. Will you provide a copy of the note to us please by next Thursday?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Sorry, can I intervene? The note forms part of the legal advice in the context of this file. It is covered by legal professional privilege. I have an issue in the context of this matter where there is a number of active and threatened litigation and I need to protect the legal professional privilege in respect of this matter.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Chair, we will take advice on that legally as well. We will then come back to Ms Mullooly. I suspect-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am happy to engage on that point.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I suspect that we are entitled to it. I will move on for time purposes. I wish to go through the timeline of what happened in March. Regarding this issue with Deloitte, the dates of 16 March and 17 March and Mr. Tubridy's resignation, the whole country is talking about this. The coincidence is incredible. I wish to ask everybody in the room the following question: Is anybody aware of anyone who may of spoken Mr. Tubridy, his agent or anyone belonging to him about what was coming down the line prior to 16 March, when he announced he was finishing up at "The Late Late Show"? Is anybody in the room aware of anything like that? No. Okay. That is fine.

Mr. Collins became aware on 7 March, he informed the director general on 8 March. Mr. Tubridy said he was finishing up on 16 March and then, on St. Patrick's Day - no issue with Deloitte - this meeting was called. In the statement by the RTÉ board on 23 June, the second paragraph states "Later in the same week, members of the Audit and Risk Committee ... of the RTÉ board were contacted by the auditors to alert them about concerns they had about a number of issues." In Mr. Collins's previous evidence, he said there was "an issue". This is stated there were a number of issues. What are the other issues?

Ms Anne O'Leary

There were two invoices. All they said to me is that there were two invoices they were looking into, so I went directly. Another member of the audit and risk committee had a call with the people in Deloitte on 18 March and then on 21 March, we had a wider meeting of the entire ARC group. That is what started off the procedure of me getting the terms and reference ready for Grant Thornton, which went out on-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

It was only really the one multiple issue of two invoices.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Yes, that was-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Are you saying that is what is meant by "a number of issues" in the RTÉ board's statement?

Ms Anne O'Leary

I was only aware of them saying to me that there were two invoices.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Mr. Collins? Same?

Mr. Richard Collins

Same. Certainly after the audit, there was only one issue.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Okay. Only one issue. I have another question. I refer to a statement made this week that Mr. Tubridy's contract has come to an end. I am no genius and I am not legally qualified but looking at precedent in respect of other people in RTÉ, I found that an extraordinary statement and I thought it was going to be a big problem straight away. Precedent would show that loads of people step down from TV programmes - I think Deputy Murphy went through this earlier - but they continued on. In fairness, the likes of Claire Byrne gave up. Who signed off on saying that, considering the absolute obvious risk involved?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Regarding that, yesterday I told the Oireachtas joint committee that his television and radio contract came to an end at the end of May. There were negotiations around a radio-only contract and those negotiations have been suspended. That was it. It seems to have got a bit confused with the termination of the contract that was negotiated between 2020 and 2025.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I think RTÉ has serious issues. I have one final question. In relation to the new presenter's salary - in fairness, he asked for it to be public - were there any changes made to the remuneration that was agreed with him versus what was announced in the past 24 hours? Were any changes made in the past week or so in respect of that and if so, what were they?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Patrick Kielty's announcement was €250,000 and I think €20,000 for pilots. In the original contract that the chair would have seen, that would have been provided by the CFO, there was €50,000, I think, of expenses. Is that right?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, just under €50,000.

Deputy Alan Kelly

So the drop is €30,000.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

It is €50,000 actually. Patrick Kielty waived the €50,000.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Just to be clear, it is €250,000 and he is getting €20,000 for pre-production, I presume, and all that sort of stuff.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Exactly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

He waived €50,000 of what?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Fees and other expenses.

Mr. Richard Collins

Travel expenses.

An Cathaoirleach

On the legal privilege mentioned, could we ask RTÉ to consider waiving that in relation to that document?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Please.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not think I am in a position to do that. I am happy to be here and answer questions as best I can within the confines of dealing with that legal privilege. There are very significant legal issues around that. In fairness, I anticipated that this question would arise and sought external legal advice on it last night. I got strong legal advice on the point.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I did not think there would be any questions left but clearly there are. I wish to address my first questions to Ms Geraldine O’Leary. I picked up on what she said yesterday about the invoice. She stated:

I am not normally somebody who raises invoices. That is not part of what I do. This was an unusual situation where I was asked by the director...

That is directly what she said.

If this was something that was not unusual or that was routine, I would not expect her to remember it but this was unusual. This was really unusual. One does not normally do this. Ms O'Leary was asked to make out an invoice for "consultancy" services. Did she know there was a problem with this last year - not this year - when people internally started raising concerns with her? Did she believe there was a need to keep this under wraps at that stage?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I did not deliberately keep anything under wraps. As I have said from the beginning, this was unusual because I had never been involved in any element of a contract with the presenter. We have gone through year one already. In year two, in 2021, the director general asked me if there were any commercial partnership possibilities and I said "No". I did not go back to Renault because we already owed it for the previous year-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not want a big, long response.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I think the question the Deputy is asking is whether anything happened in 2021. Is that what she is asking me?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am asking about last year. Did she know there was a problem, when people internally raised this with her, with this invoice?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

When I was asked to go to Grant Thornton? Yes-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am talking about last year. Was this raised with her last year?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No, the issue came up in March of this year, in 2023.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So Ms O'Leary is saying, categorically, that nothing was raised with her last year in relation to this invoice. She is absolutely categoric about that.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What did she tell her staff to do when they asked her what the consultancy services were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I did not have that discussion with my staff. As I have said before, while it is unsatisfactory, the question is who came up with the term "consultancy" fees? Was it the director general or was it Noel Kelly? Does the Deputy mean the person who was raising the invoice?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have worked in offices over the years. When one is asked to raise an invoice, one will put on the invoice what it is for so that the person on the other side will know what he or she is paying for. Ms O'Leary is raising an invoice for consultancy fees and this goes to the heart of "an act designed to deceive" that we talked about earlier. We have an invoice that Ms O'Leary is raising. She has been instructed to raise it. She does not normally do this. She cannot recall some aspects of it. It does not name Ryan Tubridy or his company but in this whole arrangement, he would have been the beneficial interest. What did the person who raised this invoice in Ms O'Leary's office, on her behalf, say to her? What did the person say in terms of what to put on the invoice?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I asked my assistant to raise the invoice. She looks after the administration of the barter account with our finance manager. I asked her to raise the invoice and to talk to Noel Kelly as to the details around the invoice.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So Noel Kelly was saying what should go on the invoice. Is that correct?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Well, I have repeatedly said that I do not remember whether it was the director general or Noel Kelly. My personal assistant and I have discussed it at length and neither of us is certain. My assistant was asked to raise the invoice and to do that, she had to consult with or talk to Noel Kelly, give him the billing details etc., so that was done.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Ms O'Leary would have led the week-long trip to Japan for the rugby world cup. Is that correct?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

She would have benefited from that. Has she had an involvement with anything else involving the barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Yes, I have. It is important to say that barter accounts exist in most media companies and are used frequently for client entertainment. So yes, we will provide the list-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In what kinds of things would Ms O'Leary have been personally involved?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

In certain cases we may have taken a table at a sponsorship awards event or we may have taken a table at a marketing event, but always with clients-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there anything like the rugby world cup trip?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

If the Deputy is asking if there was anything that I personally benefited from, on my own without clients or agencies, the answer is "Absolutely not".

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to move on to ask about the remuneration and development subcommittee, headed by Ms Doherty. According to the records, that subcommittee met 16 times between 2012 and 2016. It met six times between 2017 and 2021 but it did not meet at all in 2020. Again, according to the records, other permanent subcommittees met regularly in 2020 and 2021. The significant issues that we are talking about here today would have been under the purview of this particular committee, including the so-called balloon payment at the end of a contract. Why was this so? Who causes this committee to meet?

Ms Moya Doherty

The committee meetings are normally set by the system within RTÉ. I would accept responsibility. There was a meeting scheduled for March 2020 of the remuneration committee. That was the cataclysmic, end of the world and-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have very little time so-----

Ms Moya Doherty

Then I had a personal illness and betwixt and between, these fell through the gaps. How and ever, in my role as chair of the board, together with the chair of the auditing committee, I kept in regular communication with the director general on the issues under the remuneration committee, which were essentially consulting on top ten talent and also consulting on executive pay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am glad to hear that the top ten talent thing is being consigned to the bin but obviously the top of the top ten is Ryan Tubridy.

Ms Moya Doherty

Yes, and I would-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are going around in a circle here. Would Ms Doherty say that Ms Forbes encouraged her not to have a meeting?

Ms Moya Doherty

Absolutely not. In all of my dealings with Ms Forbes I find her to be a woman of integrity. What has happened here is that there has been a major, disastrous slip.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Had there been a meeting of this committee, would these issues have been discussed?

Ms Moya Doherty

I did discuss with Ms Forbes regularly the negotiation with Ryan Tubridy that was taking place.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It just seems that all these silos were in place. If everybody did their job properly and interacted, these things would not have been possible. People would have asked questions.

I want to move on to Mr. Collins and the response he gave us earlier in relation to Deloitte asking him the question and then him asking Ms Forbes, who gave him a very convoluted answer. Does he feel that she was not being truthful with him in the response that she gave to him at that point?

Mr. Richard Collins

I could not say that she was not being truthful. She gave me an answer. It is not for me to second-guess her. She gave me an answer. The answer-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

From what Mr. Collins knows now-----

Mr. Richard Collins

Obviously now, yes, she was not truthful.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

My next question is for legal. Do barter accounts have the potential to breach state aid rules?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am not aware of anything about a barter account or have any knowledge of what a barter account is.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What would happen if RTÉ was paying salaries by issuing invoices describing consultancy that did not happen? What if, in fact, it was for the remuneration of somebody who would otherwise be paid directly by RTÉ?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I think it is absolutely wrong but whether it is a breach of competition or state aid rules is something I would have to investigate. I do not know.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask that Ms Mullooly come back to us with that answer.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I will.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could Mr. Collins give us the list of barter accounts? Does he have that list in front of him?

Mr. Richard Collins

Is the Deputy asking for the list of the transactions that went through the barter account?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there a list of barter accounts?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, there is only one barter account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the extent of the transactions?

Mr. Richard Collins

There are hundreds of transactions.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy Murphy. You have time for one more very brief question.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will come back in again in the next round.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Collins, in relation to contractors providing services to RTÉ, obviously there would be a lot of them, including IT experts, stars and so on. Contractors would come in many different guises.

Does RTÉ always request a tax clearance certificate for contractors?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Collins guarantee this committee and the public that no contractors work for RTÉ without tax clearance certificates?

Mr. Richard Collins

We endeavour to ensure that tax clearance certificates are got from everybody.

An Cathaoirleach

The code, however, for a semi-State company would endeavour-----

Mr. Richard Collins

We are very conscious of that.

An Cathaoirleach

-----to ensure that, for any payments that are made.

Mr. Richard Collins

We are very conscious of that. If a contractor does not have a tax clearance cert, we would immediately chase them for that. You may have a situation-----

An Cathaoirleach

Before you engage the contractor-----

Mr. Richard Collins

Do we-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----would RTÉ ensure it is tax compliant?

Mr. Richard Collins

We would ensure they are tax compliant, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Is Mr. Collins 100% confident that there are not any loose ends here?

Mr. Richard Collins

I would have to make inquiries before I gave a 100% commitment. A contractor we are using may have had an issue and Revenue may have come back and asked queries on that. That can happen, but it is generally sorted out very quickly. We are conscious of our requirement-----

An Cathaoirleach

Would there be any over a number of years?

Mr. Richard Collins

No. Absolutely no. Things are sorted out very quickly.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Mr. Collins stated that the previous CFO did not brief him on the tripartite agreement in 2020, when Mr. Collins came in. I question the credibility of this. Mr. Collins stated that the person, as the former CFO, should have briefed him. That did not happen, according to what Mr. Collins said.

Mr. Richard Collins

No. I think what I said was I was briefed on the fact that there was a commercial arrangement that RTÉ was trying to put in place, or assist to put in place. The tripartite agreement happened further on down the line. The five-year contract-----

An Cathaoirleach

It is in relation to the actual salary piece. Can we just deal with the salary piece? Mr. Collins is saying that he was across that deal. I am reflecting on the answers he gave on that. He said that he concluded the standard part. I am trying to picture the scenario where Mr. Collins is concluding the standard part of Ryan Tubridy's salary, who had €440,000 or €495,000, whichever it was, in different years. Surely, before Mr. Collins could do that, he would have to know the basics around what kind of income Mr. Tubridy was already in receipt of, be it from the diversionary route or, as we now know, the concealment route, in addition to knowing the details of the regular, main payment.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, the-----

An Cathaoirleach

Surely, he was briefed on that.

Mr. Richard Collins

-----fee for the five-year contract was pretty much agreed in that. That was pretty much done.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. Collins ask whether there were any top-ups, side deals or diversionary routes?

Mr. Richard Collins

I did not ask if there were top-ups or diversionary routes. I knew the intention was to try to get an additional income and RTÉ would broker something there.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I will ask about the end-of-year bonuses from 2017 to 2019 and the €120,000. As I understand it, Mr. Collins stated that was never paid and never accrued, yet the recipient actually finished up with it.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, that is not correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. It was deducted from his published earnings.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes. They are two separate matters. He was due a €120,000 bonus at the end of his contract. It was never paid and never accrued. That is one matter. A separate matter is that €120,000 was deducted from his actual earnings when the published earnings were being calculated from 2017 to 2019.

An Cathaoirleach

Correct.

Mr. Richard Collins

Grant Thornton is investigating if there is a link between the two.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take Mr. Collins back to the consultancy and the agent, Noel Kelly, providing services to RTÉ. How much was the figure for that?

Mr. Richard Collins

The figure for-----

An Cathaoirleach

The consultancy. The invoice came with "consultancy" written on it.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

How much was the invoice for?

Mr. Richard Collins

The invoice was for €75,000. There were two invoices for €75,000.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there any others?

Mr. Richard Collins

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Grant Thornton found that there was no evidence of consultancy. Is that correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

On the balance of probabilities, that is what they have concluded.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no evidence of it.

Mr. Richard Collins

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. On consultancy, if somebody came in to advise you who had been negotiating on behalf of agents and negotiating on behalf of a number of agents in RTÉ, does Mr. Collins think it is appropriate that they would be hired to do some consultancy work and to advise RTÉ, its team here, and Ms Dee Forbes etc. on strategy and how to deal with all of that? Is that appropriate?

Mr. Richard Collins

On reflection now, I do not think it is appropriate.

An Cathaoirleach

On reflection. This man had the whole thing in the palm of his hand. According to the Grant Thornton report, he wrote the letter demanding the final settlement. He sent a letter for the board and the director general to sign. He had the power of God, by the look of that and according to the Grant Thornton report. Surely, the minute you saw the letter, not just a red light would start flashing but you would press the "on" button on the shredder and put the letter into it, at that point.

Mr. Richard Collins

The first thing is I was not aware that CMS was a company associated with Noel Kelly.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Mr. Collins not ask who the directors of the company were?

Mr. Richard Collins

Again, in hindsight, yes. Looking back at all this now, I should have asked more questions on this.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I will move on to Ms Forbes's resignation being asked for. Ms Licken was before the committee last week. When she came to the committee, how much awareness had she of what was happening in RTÉ and what was unfolding, in a general way?

Ms Katherine Licken

We did not have the detail of it. We did not have the detail until after the appearance here last week. We knew that an issue was unfolding. We knew it was with the board, that it was in process and that that process had not concluded. We expected it to conclude at some point at the end of the week, working towards possibly Thursday afternoon or Friday.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Ms Licken know what it related to?

Ms Katherine Licken

I knew it related to a serious corporate governance issue.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Ms Licken know that it related to false figures regarding pay levels for what is described as talent?

Ms Katherine Licken

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Did any officials attend the meeting on Saturday, 24 June?

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes. Ms Quill and I attended.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Quill attended as well. On the issue around Ms Forbes, the fact is that on Thursday the public position was that she was on holidays, and on Friday it was said she was suspended. Was there any discussion of that at the meeting? Did that come up?

Ms Katherine Licken

Not around the annual leave statement, but I think the chair-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am asking about that inconsistency.

Ms Katherine Licken

That did not arise, that I can recall.

Ms Tríona Quill

No. We knew on Thursday that the director general had been suspended the previous day so it did not arise for discussion.

An Cathaoirleach

The officials knew on Thursday.

Ms Tríona Quill

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

The officials knew that the public statement put out by RTÉ that Ms Forbes was on holidays that Thursday was not correct.

Ms Tríona Quill

We were advised on Thursday that the director general had been suspended on Wednesday.

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Right. The officials knew the statement put out by RTÉ was incorrect.

Ms Katherine Licken

Maybe the Chair can comment on this, but I am not aware that RTÉ put out a statement on Thursday that Ms Forbes was on leave.

An Cathaoirleach

It was reported that she was on holidays. Is that correct?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There may have been a press inquiry to RTÉ. I am not aware of that.

An Cathaoirleach

That was what was being reported.

Mr. Rory Coveney

My understanding of this is there was a press query on the Monday as to where Dee Forbes was. The accurate position, at that stage, was that she was on leave. That subsequently got reported on Wednesday, when things had changed.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask about Mr. Coveney's role in RTÉ. Is his role strategy?

Mr. Rory Coveney

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Coveney worked hand in glove with the director general-----

Mr. Rory Coveney

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

-----advising her.

Mr. Rory Coveney

I worked very closely with Dee Forbes, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

How many years has Mr. Coveney been in that role?

Mr. Rory Coveney

I was appointed to the role initially by Noel Curran and then the role evolved into director of strategy a year or two after Dee Forbes started.

An Cathaoirleach

You have been director of strategy for five years.

Mr. Rory Coveney

A little bit less than that, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

You would have had a very close working relationship with Ms Forbes.

Mr. Rory Coveney

I did.

An Cathaoirleach

Did she ever discuss with you matters in relation to the retention of the top stars?

Mr. Rory Coveney

No. We never had a conversation about this. I know that might sound strange because we were very close, and I hope we will be at some stage again when this has all passed, but we never had a conversation about this. I have never had a role in top talent negotiations or discussions. I do not have responsibility for it. So "No" is the answer.

An Cathaoirleach

Let me put this to you. On numerous occasions, members of this committee have asked RTÉ management about the high levels of remuneration for the top talent, so to speak. The justification always was that they would walk. They said they had to try to retain them and there was a competitive market out there. You will have observed those meetings here. I cannot recall whether you were present at any of them. Were you at some of those meetings?

Mr. Rory Coveney

I think so, yes. I am not sure.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure you would have observed some of them as well. You would have heard reports back from those meetings and you would have been involved in preparations for them, along with Dee Forbes and other senior staff, as the head of strategy. Much play was made by the senior people at the top of RTÉ of the importance of retaining that talent. If that is the case, and you were head of strategy for five years and you have a close relationship with the director general, you are asking me to believe the area around these issues was never discussed with the director general.

Mr. Rory Coveney

You asked me whether I was specifically aware of any of the arrangements pertaining to the discussion today and the answer is not at all. I never had a conversation with Dee Forbes about that.

An Cathaoirleach

Did you-----

Mr. Rory Coveney

Sorry, on the broader issue of the reduction of top talent fees, for want of a better expression, that process had started. When I started working with Noel Curran there was a very substantial discussion early in his term. Since then, they have dropped by close to 40%.

An Cathaoirleach

I have seen the grid.

Mr. Rory Coveney

This is a topical issue in RTÉ as much as it is everywhere else.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask a very specific question about it. Have you ever discussed with Ms Forbes or other senior executive in RTÉ that whole area of having to pay significant salaries - what would be counted as very high salaries - or payments or fees, as they are sometimes referred to because they are contractors, to retain that talent? Was that necessary? Was there ever a discussion around the necessity of that?

Mr. Rory Coveney

As I said-----

An Cathaoirleach

As the head of strategy-----

Mr. Rory Coveney

Of course there is a discussion about top talent fees. As the Cathaoirleach says, it is an issue of public concern and political interest.

An Cathaoirleach

Just to keep it short, the necessity of payment would be discussed. It had to have been over the past five years. What else would you be doing?

Mr. Rory Coveney

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Rory Coveney

The issue-----

An Cathaoirleach

When those discussions were taking place did anybody in the room ever ask where they would walk to? Was that question ever asked?

Mr. Rory Coveney

There was one very specific case, not in Dee Forbes's time but in Noel Curran's time, when one of our top stars did leave to go to Newstalk. I was not party to the discussions but-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is the market that big out there in this country?

Mr. Rory Coveney

It certainly is timely to reflect on that, absolutely. Any of these events have certainly brought that-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am glad you agree with me that it is time to reflect on that.

Mr. Rory Coveney

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

There is also the back question to that. If somebody did walk, I think we could be fairly confident that we would fill those positions for €445,000 or €495,000 a year. I am absolutely confident that if those jobs were advertised, RTÉ would get enough applications and that there would be long list. I am sure it would have to make a short-list for interviews. It would not be a case of having only one or two applications. Most people involved in recruitment would say it is a very attractive position in a very attractive company and it is a highly rated position. Anybody working in a recruitment agency would tell you that. I thank Mr. Coveney.

I will bring members in for a second round of questioning. We are trying to get finished up so I will set some ground rules. We could take a second break but I propose that we take four minutes each and that we try to wrap up at around 5.15 p.m. It would save us from having another break. Is everyone happy with that? Agreed.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Cathaoirleach. This meeting has taken a very dark turn from what we started out with today and what we saw yesterday. This is because a number of things have been said in the room. There have been denials and a change in vocabulary and tone. Something that really struck home to me was related to the barter fund. To have the former chair of RTÉ describe it as a "slush fund" is enormously significant. I want to give Ms Doherty an opportunity to expand on what she said. To me it has very deep ramifications. Ms Doherty was leading the organisation while much of this was going on, in terms of her capacity on the board. I would like to know what she means when she says "slush fund".

Ms Moya Doherty

My colleague behind me, and because he is behind me I cannot see him, went to the dictionary and looked up the definition of a "barter fund". That struck me as quite an horrific definition. From my perspective, and that of my colleagues Dr. P.J Matthews, Anne O'Leary and Robert Shortt who were on the board with me, none of us knew of the existence of this barter fund. It was outside of the financial department and, therefore, not reported to us as a board during our monthly meetings and did not exist in the monthly management accounts. For me, as chair, and for my colleagues on the board, that is staggering and absolutely shocking. We did not even pick up in the corridors of RTÉ the existence of the barter fund. I appreciate, from my education about the barter fund of late, that it is something that is common in commercial. How and ever, it raises the bigger issue now about the tension between commercial and public service. That is a debate-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I will have to stop Ms Doherty because my time is very limited. She has been very generous in that answer.

My next question is for Mr. Shortt. I am sorry to put him on the spot but we know the significance of his presence here on behalf of his organisation and the team he represents on the board. Was there widespread knowledge in the broadcasting team and were the lesser public figures on RTÉ - by which I mean those involved in TV broadcasting in Ireland with whom we would not be as familiar - aware of the significant amount of finances involved in the barter funds, yes or no?

Mr. Robert Shortt

No. Does the Deputy want me to elaborate?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes, and please keep the answer as short as possible as my time is quite limited.

Mr. Robert Shortt

The first time I heard about the existence of the barter fund was when I sat at the audit and risk committee meeting on 21 March.

Deputy James O'Connor

How did Mr. Shortt feel about it?

Mr. Robert Shortt

I was shocked. It took me a while even to try to understand that. Having said that, it obviously exists in the commercial world, and I fully accept that, but it was not widely known. It is very important to state, with regard to people working in news and current affairs and other parts of the organisation, there is a very clear distinction between the activities in the commercial section and what we do. We would not have known about a barter account. It would not have been appropriate for us to know about a barter account and what went on in a barter account.

Deputy James O'Connor

Were ordinary staff in RTÉ as familiar as we here have now become with the amount of perks there were with this job? We have heard about Champions League final tickets and IRFU ten-year tickets. There seems to be a Las Vegas-style culture and a Celtic tiger culture that has persisted in RTÉ. Is that something the staff are familiar with?

Mr. Robert Shortt

I do not mean to make a joke here but in RTÉ the joke is that the RTÉ Guide is the perk. You might get a free RTÉ Guide every week but that is about it and, I might add, you might not get the Christmas RTÉ Guide. Staff generally do not have any sight of what has been described here today. Having listened, I know a lot more about a barter account now than I did back in March, and I can see why such an account works in the commercial world. but it was something I had no knowledge of prior to this.

Deputy James O'Connor

I ask the chair of the board, from what she has heard and seen so far and from what she knows, whether she has any fear that any of this amounts to criminality or fraud.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am advised not at this point but I cannot fully answer that question. The barter account is standard. None of this-----

Deputy James O'Connor

There does not seem to be much that is standard about this particular barter account.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I agree.

Deputy James O'Connor

It seems to be incredibly complex. Considering the amount of public money involved in the transactions with this barter account, we are going to need to see an awful lot more detail. I fully support the point made by Deputy Kelly. We need everything on this, from top to bottom. This is not going to go away. As a matter of fact, because of today's meeting the situation is going to get worse. I am out of time. It is imperative that the board furnishes this committee and the public with that information in a matter of days, let alone for next week's meeting. It needs to be done urgently.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, and we are undertaking to do that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

My question is to the commercial director. I want to take her back to year one of the tripartite agreement. She had negotiated with Renault to pay Ryan Tubridy €75,000. Is that right?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

That is correct.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ then issued a credit note to Renault for €75,000.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

That is correct.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am curious as to the logic in asking Renault to pay and then RTÉ to pay it back.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

To repeat, once the deal had been done, I was asked to represent this to Renault, which I did. Ideally, I am sure the hope was that Renault would have extra money to pay Ryan Tubridy separately but it had not. From my perspective, this is a loyal and supportive client. Once the cost-neutrality principle was accepted by the director general, the client was getting three high-profile events for its business.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Most people would see that the only logic for that was to conceal the payments. The other point is that it was not cost-neutral because RTÉ paid the €75,000.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

It was cost-neutral to the client.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It was cost-neutral to the client but not to the taxpayer. There is talk about it being "cost-neutral", but RTÉ paid in years one, two and three.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was the one who used the phrase "cost neutral" to Grant Thornton because that was how the client had described it to me.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, but it was not cost-neutral to the taxpayer. We paid in years one, two and three of that tripartite agreement.

I will ask a question of Mr. Collins. That credit note went through his department, the finance department, did it not?

Mr. Richard Collins

The commercial finance department.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Who authorised that?

Mr. Richard Collins

It was authorised by the commercial director. Ultimately, it was authorised by the director general.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am asking about when it came through Mr. Collins' department.

Mr. Richard Collins

It would have been raised-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

With you?

Mr. Richard Collins

It would have been requested by the commercial director.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Collins would have known it was part of the tripartite agreement.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I did not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right, here we go again. All of a sudden, we were paying Renault for a fee it paid to Ryan Tubridy. We were paying for something we should not have been paying for if things were done properly. This credit note came through Mr. Collins' department. Is he saying he did not ask what the story with it was? Did nobody tell him this was part of the tripartite agreement?

Mr. Richard Collins

I was not a part of the tripartite agreement.

Deputy Imelda Munster

This was year one.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, it was not discussed with me.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It was part of the tripartite agreement.

Mr. Richard Collins

It was part of the tripartite agreement.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Collins just said it was not. Will you stop?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not part of the tripartite agreement.

Deputy Imelda Munster

At that stage, did Mr. Collins, as chief financial officer - I do not want to have to say that once more - not ask questions?

Mr. Richard Collins

Look-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Take your time now.

Mr. Richard Collins

-----in hindsight, I should have asked.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In hindsight, yes.

Mr. Richard Collins

Looking at it now, I should have asked a lot more. No, I did not ask questions because I saw-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

It appears to me-----

Mr. Richard Collins

-----it had the appropriate approval.

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----that Mr. Collins has been consistent in one thing. He has been consistent in failing to do his job as chief financial officer.

I know time is of the essence. I want to come back to the slush fund. Ms O'Leary called out a few examples. There was a U2 concert in Croke Park on 14 May 2019. Will she look up and tell us how much that cost? Was it Ms O'Leary who organised that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I would have organised that with my colleagues.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms O'Leary would have organised that.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

If I am allowed to add, client representation is a key part of what we do as a media business, along with every other media owner in Ireland. It is not unusual. In fact, it is part of the job that we create relationships with clients and agencies who spent-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Would there have been family members at that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

At the gig that year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That particular U2 concert.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

My husband probably came with me, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

All right.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Every guest had his or her partner.

Deputy Imelda Munster

All right. There were two of you there.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I do not remember whether he did but I would say he probably did.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms O'Leary thinks she attended with her husband. A coach was hired to take her from the Twenty2 restaurant in Drumcondra, which has now closed, to Croke Park.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

That is so.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is fairly flippant with taxpayers' money.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I do not-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Hold on. What galls the public is that RTÉ cried poverty constantly and here was Ms O'Leary, as commercial director, with a redundant chief financial officer who was not aware of anything, flashing taxpayers' money by hiring a coach to take her from Drumcondra to Croke Park. She brought the hubby along. There was another gig at the K Club.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will finish on this point. I want a figure for the cost of that Croke Park gig and while Ms O'Leary is here, a figure for attendance at the K Club on 27 May 2019. There were about five or six months between those two big hooleys.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

It is important for the record to say that these related to client representation, which is part of what we do.

An Cathaoirleach

We will get those figures.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How much was the cost for those? Did Ms O'Leary also organise the K Club event?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No, I do not golf.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did she attend the event?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I will have to look back but I probably attended the dinner in the evening after the golf but I do not golf.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we have those figures for Deputy Munster and the committee before the end of the meeting?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will return to the issue of the remuneration committee that was raised by Deputy Catherine Murphy. According to the RTÉ website, the remuneration and management committee has a specific remit in terms of reviewing policy in relation to the top talent contractor contracts. That is very specific to what we are talking about. It is also to review the remuneration of executives and the director general. I understand Ms Doherty was a member of the committee at the time. Was Ms O'Leary also a member?

Ms Moya Doherty

I was the chair of the committee.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Ms Doherty was chair of the committee. It met every year from 2004 to 2021, which I have records for, apart from this particular year, which is an extraordinary coincidence, if I am honest. It did, however, meet in 2021. That was when we would have expected to have seen the outworking of this underwriting. Were any details discussed at the meeting of the remuneration committee about the underwriting?

Ms Moya Doherty

No. It is incredibly difficult to ask questions and to expect answers if there are secret and clandestine agreements that are not registered on the books.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Ms Doherty would have expected the details of that underwriting to be presented to the committee in the normal course of things.

Ms Moya Doherty

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Who speaks at that committee? Ms Doherty convenes a meeting. Who else attends and who presents the details the committee is supposed to review?

Ms Moya Doherty

We would call on the director general or on any other bodies who may be relevant to the information we require at the time.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

In 2021, did the director general present to the committee when it met?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I will come in, as company secretary. I do not believe she did. I could not be certain and would have to go back and check, but I do not believe she did.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The committee met at this time. The period should have covered the Renault deal, considering there had not been a meeting in 2020. It should also have covered the underwriting.

Ms Paula Mullooly

The terms of the committee state that the director general shall consult the committee in respect of top talent earnings and shall bring executive pay to the committee. Those are the specific terms of reference.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The director general did not come or consult the committee on this occasion. Did anybody come in her stead?

Ms Paula Mullooly

No. May I say something here? This question is being directed to the chair of the audit and risk committee and the previous chair.

I am the company secretary to the board, so if there was a lapse in calling meetings during that time, I must bear some responsibility for that. I needed to pursue it more vigorously and I did not.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I assume this committee would have expected to know if there was a discrepancy between the figure of €440,000 that was published versus the €515,000 that was actually making its way to Mr. Tubridy. The committee would have expected to hear that information on the meeting of 2021.

Ms Moya Doherty

We were at all times seeking reductions in the salaries of the high earners. Our remit was 15%. We understood that 15% was secured across the board. That is the-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It goes back to that opening statement where-----

Ms Moya Doherty

-----formal information, audited, that we were given.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

As Ms. Ní Raghallaigh said, it appears that this was an act designed to deceive or, at the very best, to conceal. It should have been presented to that committee. Regarding the payments that came through this clandestine and labyrinthine method of invoices and the divil and all, there is the issue of tax compliance. These have moved between jurisdictions and we have been told there is no VAT liability because they emanated from the UK. They are part of a payment in lieu of salary or as a top-up to salary. Are we satisfied that the tax liabilities have been covered off? In the end of year reporting in terms of tax liabilities, were the transactions undertaken by the barter account - this one is the largest and most notable - adequately captured when preparing and submitting tax returns at end of year?

Mr. Richard Collins

In relation to those invoices going through the barter account, we are taking advice on that on the tax liability and what tax exposure we have.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The witnesses are not currently satisfied that the tax liability is adequately provided for?

Mr. Richard Collins

I cannot say for 100%. We are taking advice on it.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can we get a hold of the details of every payment made into that account and details of what it was used for over the last ten years?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

That will be made available to us.

I would like to ask the director of commercial, Ms Geraldine O'Leary, about the barter account. I know it was accepted practice to use a barter account but did she see a need at any stage for legal advice about the use of that account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No. When it came to significant amounts like the trip to the Rugby World Cup in 2019, I would have done that with the approval of the director general. I would not have done that-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Did it occur to Ms O'Leary that even though it might have been practice - many cases are going through the High Court - something might have been practised within an organisation for a long number of years but might not necessarily be legal? Did it ever occur to Ms O'Leary that she should look for legal advice about how this matter was being dealt with?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Not before now because this is standard practice. To the best of my knowledge, the account is legal. The processes were an issue but the account is legal.

Deputy Colm Burke

Regarding the legal adviser, was Ms Mullooly aware of the existence of the barter account? When did she become aware of it?

Ms Paula Mullooly

When this process started.

Deputy Colm Burke

Moneys were going out - surely someone at some stage would have looked to Ms Mullooly for legal advice?

Ms Paula Mullooly

No. I have never given legal advice on the barter account.

Deputy Colm Burke

Many questions are arising out of the evidence given yesterday and today. Can I take it from the chair that everyone who made themselves available will be available, should the committee require anyone to come back in?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

Will Ms Ní Raghallaigh make absolutely sure that occurs and that we will not be left in limbo and unable to get answers to further questions we might want to ask?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will undertake to do that.

Deputy Colm Burke

Ms Ní Raghallaigh will undertake to do that. On reorganisation, given what has occurred, is a process now going to be set in place to put in proper structures to make sure something like this does not happen again?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Absolutely. We are starting that process.

Deputy Colm Burke

In what kind of timescale would Ms Ní Raghallaigh hope to have that done?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We are dealing with everything that we can immediately. Some of the changes that have to happen are simple and some are a bit more complex. That will be done over a period of time. I do not know - I would say in the next month, I hope, we will have tightened up on everything. We have already started the changes, to be clear.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Dr. Matthews is on mute but perhaps he can respond in a second. I wish to ask him what I asked Ms Anne O'Leary earlier, because he is also one of the longest-serving members on the board, alongside Ms Anne O'Leary. He has been a member since 2014. Did he witness a change in culture since 2016 or 2017?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

Will Deputy Devlin clarify? Does he mean-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Dr. Matthews is in his second term as director, is that correct?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

Correct, yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Has Dr. Matthews seen a change in culture over that period, given that he has worked alongside two directors general of the organisation?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

What is coming out is very shocking to me. I feel a sense of incredible let-down regarding what is coming out through this entire process. It was not apparent to me, any of the-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is fine. Did he witness a change in culture? That is my question.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

In terms of the engagement between the board and the executive, there has always been a sense in which we engage and try to ask the difficult questions. We represent the licence-fee payer. Certainly, different personalities have different approaches to-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Dr. Matthews. My time is limited. I appreciate his response.

To stick with the barter account, perhaps Mr. Collins could respond. When was it first established?

Mr. Richard Collins

It looks like 2014.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Collins said he was in from 2020. It is unfortunate for him because he has inherited this somewhat. I wish to ask Mr. Lynch if there was any whistleblowing in RTÉ over the last number of years?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There has never been any whistleblowing or complaints made?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In terms of declaration, no.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

None at all. Is a procedure in place?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who oversaw the barter account? Was it just the director general or was there anybody else?

Mr. Richard Collins

There was nobody else.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There was nobody else, except when Mr. Collins became aware of it. Is that correct?

Mr. Richard Collins

The barter account resided in the commercial department. The commercial director-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

We went through this earlier and, ultimately, it comes back to finance. Is that right?

Mr. Richard Collins

I would not say the director general oversaw the account. The director general took an interest in certain transactions-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I will put it a different way. In terms of the ten-year season tickets, the Rugby World Cup, U2, golfing and all the other activities, it looks like this harks back to FÁS. FÁS got caught and it was reformed. RTÉ has been caught, I suppose, but there are the same insinuations that there was a kind of slush fund, to use the words. I grew up with RTÉ and programmes like "The Den" and "Planet Zog" - you must be living on it if you are asking us to believe that no one else knew. Were any directors of the board at any of these events? Nobody? The thing is that people must have known that such and such was going off to U2, the K Club and the dinners, along with their partners and possibly their families. Nobody asked any questions, with the exception of Mr. Shortt, who was elected to his position, and the staff of the organisation, who must really wonder what was going on because they might get a free RTÉ Guide the odd time - wow. It was not being run for the benefit of the staff or the taxpayers.

Deputy John Brady

I wish to go back to a statement Mr. Collins made earlier in relation to the agreement that was in place with Mr. Tubridy.

He spoke about the concealment and the deception. He also made a statement where he described the taxpayer as being defrauded.

Mr. Richard Collins

Deputy Brady asked me my opinion if there was a fraud.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Mr. Collins stated that the taxpayer was defrauded, so that is a very serious-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I said that in my opinion you could look at it that way.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, in his opinion. Has Mr. Collins spoken to An Garda Síochána and made a statement about that?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I have not.

Deputy John Brady

Does Mr. Collins intend on making a statement to the Garda? Defrauding is a serious offence. It is unlawful, and that is a statement that Mr. Collins has made. On that basis, will he speak to the Garda?

Mr. Richard Collins

I would have to take advice on that.

Deputy John Brady

I think Mr. Collins should because he made a very bold statement.

The barter account was set up in 2014. We also have the former director of commercial for RTÉ online - Mr. Willie O'Reilly. Was he the director that the time when that account was set up?

Mr. Willie O'Reilly

Could Deputy Brady repeat that question?

Deputy John Brady

Mr. O'Reilly was the former director of commercial. Was he responsible for the establishment of the barter account?

Mr. Willie O'Reilly

No, the barter account was in operation when I came in so that is the answer, as it was in Today FM, Newstalk, Highland Radio, iRadio and FM104, of which I was a director.

Deputy John Brady

I thank Mr. O'Reilly. Is it correct that Ms Geraldine O'Leary took over the position in 2019?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

It was 2018.

Deputy John Brady

The account in place at that stage.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Correct.

Deputy John Brady

We have heard some of the grotesque expenditures, some of which are headline figures, I imagine. There was media reporting of the trip to Tokyo at the time. I think it was in the Mail on Sunday. Can Ms O'Leary repeat for us again how much that particular trip cost?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

We will share that information. I do not think-----

Deputy John Brady

I think Mr. Collins made reference to it earlier on. It was in the region of €111,000.

Mr. Richard Collins

It cost the barter account €111,000, in terms of credits that had to be cashed in.

Deputy John Brady

That media report, dated 22 September 2019, said that there were six people on that trip. Ms O'Leary was one of those six.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I was one of those, with one of my colleagues and four guests.

Deputy John Brady

That was more than €18,500 per head for that trip, doing simple maths.

Mr. Richard Collins

If I could just clarify, the actual cost of the trip was €72,000, but then the fee on top of that-----

Deputy John Brady

Okay, but it is still an extraordinary amount.

That report was published in 2019. The former chair of the RTÉ board, Ms Moya Doherty, stated that she had no knowledge of the barter account. I am sure when this was rightly picked up by the media back in 2019, it was a topic of conversation at the board. Was it?

Ms Moya Doherty

Sorry, I do not understand the reference to the 2019 pick-up.

Deputy John Brady

This article was published in 2019 regarding the trip to Tokyo by RTÉ and others. There was a lot of criticism that this trip had taken place at the same time as a series of cuts being made at RTÉ. I am sure that particular trip was a topic of conversation at board level.

Ms Moya Doherty

Yes, I am sure it would have been, absolutely.

Deputy John Brady

I am sure a legitimate question would have been asked as to where the money came from to pay for that trip. Does Ms Doherty recall?

Ms Moya Doherty

I have no direct recall. Does Mr. Shortt recall?

Mr. Robert Shortt

I cannot recall whether the question was asked but I definitely had the assumption that RTÉ paid for the trip. We were not made aware, at that point, that it had gone through something that we now know to be a barter account. However, there was a lot of disquiet about what had happened and what had been reported.

Deputy John Brady

There was no proper accounting given as to where the money came from.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I just assumed that if RTÉ had paid for it, RTÉ had paid for it.

Deputy John Brady

To finish, I asked yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media that the accounts from the barter account would be published. Can I ask that they would be published here at this committee, as well as the five-year contract for Ryan Tubridy, and the tripartite agreement? It was also stated yesterday by Ms Geraldine O'Leary that on an annual basis, she publishes an account of any benefits that she accrues from the barter account. Am I correct?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

No, I think the question I was asked yesterday related to anything I received from clients or anything else.

Deputy John Brady

Ms. O'Leary publishes that every year. Can I ask if the Committee of Public Accounts could also be provided with that, and any side letters that have been published or given relating to any of those negotiations or agreements?

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Brady. On the side letters, can the witnesses ensure that we get a copy of the letter from Mr. Noel Kelly, which was sent in the final stages of the 2020 agreement and referred to in the Grant Thornton report?

Ms Paula Mullooly

That was the draft letter.

An Cathaoirleach

That is correct and if there was a final exchange of any correspondence about what was actually agreed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I want to ask Mr. Robert Shortt on behalf of the good staff, or the ordinary staff, of RTÉ, who are all talented, what he considers to be an appropriate sanction, based on what he is hearing today, or what is going to go on, and the Grant Thornton report. Does he believe he is going to get accountability from this process?

Mr. Robert Shortt

Yes, I believe we are going to get accountability from this process, and that has been the intention of the board at least in beginning the process, to bring us to where we are at now. I fully accept that it is extremely frustrating. It is an ugly process, and one that is also dragging the organisation through enormous damage reputationally in terms of staff morale. If I did not believe we were going to get accountability, I would not be engaged in it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What does Mr. Shortt believe it should look like?

Mr. Robert Shortt

I do not think that is for me to say. There is a process in place where we are getting there. We have already taken actions that have been called into question in an attempt to try to bring in a level of accountability for the now former director general. That was not an easy decision to make. Obviously, we were patiently waiting for the first Grant Thornton report to be completed, and then it went through our own meeting at the audit and risk committee. There were three full board meetings and at that stage the process of accountability was under way before we made what was also a very difficult decision to suspend the director general. As a member of staff, that is a decision that went through a lot of rigorous discussion. It was a big decision to make, and we did not take it lightly.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I appreciate that, and I can see from Mr. Shortt's face through this whole thing that this is painful. I can just imagine. It is the deceit, and the whole thing was designed to deceive staff and make them believe that they had to take pay cuts because the top talent, as they were referred to previously, had taken them.

At the same time, Mr. Shortt talked about the lengthy process that was undertaken when it came to Ms Forbes. What have we learned? The coffers of RTÉ, as I previously stated, are going to suffer on the basis of compensation that will be paid for the process not being undergone, with what Mr. Lynch's actions were. I cannot remember who Mr. Lynch said he made the decision with not to put Mr. Tubridy back on the air.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The director of content.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is going to strain the finances of RTÉ further because I am sure the Government is not going to pick up the tab, nor should it. What level of learning have we with incompetent decisions? The witnesses took weeks, as a board, for someone who was leaving anyway, and six weeks from her role being fulfilled as the DG-----

Mr. Robert Shortt

We took a week.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, sorry. The board took a week to decide on someone who had only six weeks left in the role.

This decision was made by a board. Is that not correct?

Mr. Robert Shortt

Correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

This decision that Mr. Lynch made was made by two people. We are talking about a mistake, or whatever it is going to be called, that has cost €150,000. This will cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of euro. Where are we going to see accountability? At the end of the day, Mr. Lynch said he will not resign. He is not being asked to take a reduction in salary. When that bill has to be accounted for, however, who will take the reduction in salary and ultimately become accountable, other than the people Mr. Shortt represents? I do not call that accountability. I do not know what accountability looks like here but I know certainly there is nobody in front of it.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I am sorry; I will go some way to answering that. There is also accountability to the public and accountability to what RTÉ stands for, which is the truth. I know that may be difficult for people to accept given everything that has been happening, but as far as staff are concerned, that is very much what we understand our jobs to be. I do not know what, as the Deputy asserts, there may be in terms of the risks that have arisen because of the way we have dealt with this, but we have made decisions. We felt we had to make decisions. In terms of the decision regarding Ryan Tubridy being on air, that was not a board decision, nor should it ever be a board decision. The idea that a board would have some say-so in who is on the air in RTÉ would quite frankly-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, I agree with that. I do not mean the board-----

Mr. Robert Shortt

-----strike fear in my heart.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I mean the full executive should have been aware of a decision that was going to result in a payout of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of euro at the end of this. That will be the end result. There will not be accountability. Nobody will be sacked because the scapegoats are already in place.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I can only assure the Deputy, as a board member who has a responsibility both to staff but also, indirectly through the Minister, to the Oireachtas, that accountability will be something that I will be very focused on delivering for staff, for the Oireachtas, through the Minister, and for the public.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is why I asked. I asked what it looked like.

Mr. Robert Shortt

We are not there yet so I cannot tell the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Shortt. I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The scars of today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts will run deep for RTÉ for years to come, especially after what we have listened to today. It has been exceptional for any members here to witness it. We heard about fraudulent invoices, off-balance sheets and accountancy practices. We have the concealment of payments. We heard of a €1.25 million slush fund for IRFU world cup tickets and Champions League tickets, and there is much more to come. I ask the CFO again whether he accepts that RTÉ voluntarily decided to spend a further €81,000 to hide the unbudgeted expense, that is, the invoices to Mr. Noel Kelly, by putting it through the barter account.

Mr. Richard Collins

The decision was made to put it through the barter account and there was a cost associated with that. Once the decision was made to route it through the barter account, that cost was going to be incurred.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will ask again. Who made the decision to put it through the barter account?

Mr. Richard Collins

The evidence from the commercial director is that the director general made the decision.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The payment for the invoice was €150,000. Everyone knew that, with commission fees, the payment was going to increase by an extra €81,000. Who made that decision?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I can confirm that I was instructed by the director general to raise the invoices through the barter account.

Deputy Alan Dillon

That was done knowing that this substantial additional fee would be applied.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Understanding how the barter account works, had we left the money in the account and cashed it out, we would have been at 0.65 also, which is-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

It was done not knowing who the recipient was.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I knew who the recipient was. I did not understand what it represented as part of his overall salary and I did not understand anything-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I do not think that is credible. Again, we are looking-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I can only-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

As I said earlier, truth matters-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I would like to say-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----and we are looking for-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

-----I have told the truth all the way through here.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Truth matters.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I know. It matters to me too.

Deputy Alan Dillon

As RTÉ is our public broadcaster, it is really important. I do not think it is credible to say that.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I can just repeat that truth matters to me too and that is what I have told all the way through.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Ms O'Leary confirm if the former head of news attended the Champions League final in 2019 with the cost paid from the barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I will have to check that out for the Deputy. I think he was there on his own steam. Let me confirm that for the Deputy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Were his expenses paid through the barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Not that I remember.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I also-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Let me confirm that. Again, truth matters and I want to be truthful. I will have to check that out and revert.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay. My next question is for the acting director general. Who is replacing Ms Dee Forbes as the director of RTÉ's private company, GAAGO?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

With everything that has been going on, there has been no decision on that yet?

Deputy Alan Dillon

When will a decision be made?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Quickly.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will Mr. Lynch also provide the committee with the up-to-date subscription numbers for GAAGO for the 2023 championship season? Is that something he can provide?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

My understanding is that this is a joint venture with the GAA and there will be some commercial sensitivity around it. However, I am absolutely happy to engage with the Chair.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay. I thank Mr. Lynch.

My final questions are directed to the chair of the board. Normally in a crisis, the natural inclination is to come forward with all the information and get a resolution. As I said earlier, however, Ms Ní Raghallaigh went on RTÉ news when she knew she would not give a correct picture at the time. What has been painfully evident here is what happened subsequently. We are trying to establish the facts but things are getting worse by the day. On the basis of what Ms Ní Raghallaigh said at the start of today's session in terms of an act designed to deceive, how confident is she in all her RTÉ colleagues to fix this?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Based on everything we have been through in the past several days and-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I would blame the board as well for not coming forward with all the information-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We did issue a comprehensive statement. That is what the board-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

-----when we asked Ms Ní Raghallaigh yesterday.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

-----did last Thursday.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I ask Ms Ní Raghallaigh to respond.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to the question, how confident is Ms Ní Raghallaigh in the executive management to fix the situation?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am confident, and I am confident in the new director general coming in and doing what he decides has to be done in that respect.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is Ms Ní Raghallaigh's position as RTÉ chair tenable?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I believe so. I believe I did what my job was. We acted swiftly when we got the information. We followed a process. The process is important when individuals are involved. We have to be sure of what we are doing.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What about the mistake of not informing the Minister in relation to the resignation that Ms Ní Raghallaigh requested?

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is way over time.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I have already said that I have spoken to the Minister this morning. I accept that should not have been the way it was, and I said that to her.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Dillon. I call Deputy Kelly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have a few more requests and then three questions. First, "Toy Show - The Musical" has cost a fortune and been an unmitigated disaster. Can we get the figures behind how much it has cost? Obviously, the show will not see the light of day again.

The second issue relates to the legal advice I spoke about earlier. I am not legally qualified but one member of the committee is. I have also had at least ten people email me and send me messages on WhatsApp. It is actually not Ms Ní Raghallaigh's decision. It is the decision of the board and the chairperson. I ask her to reflect given that there are hundreds of thousands of people watching this. That note is central. I believe Ms Ní Raghallaigh should waive privilege and give it to us as a committee.

I have received so many emails, text messages and WhatsApp messages. It is amazing the number of people who are asking about cars - this is going back years - and other corporate deals. Can Ms Ní Raghallaigh write to staff asking whether any side deals have been made with people who are being contracted in, regardless of whether they have an agent, and whether they are getting any corporate hospitality, cars or anything else and bring that information forward?

Unless everyone out there is wrong, people are saying there is a lot of this going on. The committee would also like the minutes of all of the executive board meetings for the past five years. It is obvious that we need to meet the head of content. He seems to be a critical component in all of this. Did Mr. O'Reilly say the barter account was in place when he joined in 2012 or 2014? I do not want to get it wrong.

Mr. Willie O'Reilly

It was 2012.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You were there since 2012, so it was before then. Ten years is not enough. You need to go back 20 years, so that is 20 years for the barter account. With regard to RTÉ and Renault, is it true that crews and facilities were used for recording and performance at Renault gigs as part of this deal? How much did that cost? Is it true that RTÉ staff, crews and equipment were used at different Renault gigs as part of this deal?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I do not know.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You do not know. Does anyone know?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Obviously, I was across them and we used an event management company. I will go through the detail. To the best of my knowledge the producer who worked with us was from RTÉ, and was a former producer on "The Late Late Show." I was there, but that was as part of my job. I understand that we did not use RTÉ equipment. That is my understanding.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You did not use RTÉ equipment but you used RTÉ crews.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

I will have to check that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is the opinion of quite a number of people in RTÉ that you did.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

Okay, let me check that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You might come back to me on that. The second issue relates to Ryan Tubridy's TV and radio contract, which the acting DG has said ended in May. Since May, under what contract is he operating on RTÉ radio?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

A contract offer has gone out from the CFO.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I did not ask that. Under what contract was he operating until he was taken off air, because he has finished up with "The Late Late Show."

Mr. Adrian Lynch

His contract for television and radio came to an end on 31 May. A subsequent offer has gone out to the agent. That is in dispute.

Deputy Alan Kelly

This is my third time asking this. Surely, you cannot be employed, particularly by a State organisation, and not have a contract. There is a gap here. Under what contract is he currently employed?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I would say the contract is in dispute. I will just defer to RTÉ legal-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

He does not have a contract. The old contract is over. A new contract offer has gone out for the radio stuff. I understand that. This has not been agreed, so now he does not have a contract for the period between coming off of "The Late Late Show" and being suspended. Suspended is the wrong term and I withdraw it. He was taken off air.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I will have the director of legal clarify that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Is he still being paid?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I will clarify that, to the best of my knowledge, we have stated that the previous contract is at an end. I know the agent disputes that. There is no written contract in place at the moment. I personally do not know if there has been an agreement to cover his appearances on radio until such time as a new contract is arranged.

Deputy Alan Kelly

This is extraordinary stuff.

An Cathaoirleach

You are over time, Deputy but go on-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know, but we have to tease this out. I will ask one quick final question. How can somebody be employed on one contract, which finishes up, be offered another contract that has not been signed, but yet be working? How do you work out the payroll? I know payroll might not be a big deal for some of these people because they are so high. How do you work out the payroll? How does somebody get paid?

Ms Paula Mullooly

From a legal point of view, I can say there is no new contract in place. There may be an oral agreement as to what he is being paid for that period while he is out of contract.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Another oral agreement.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not know.

An Cathaoirleach

Can anybody else here answer that question?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Can you find out? The last question is for the acting DG. You said that you spoke with the incoming DG.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That is correct.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Fair play to you. You told us that he said there would be a complete reconfiguration of the executive board.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct. Kevin Bakhurst will come in and make all of the necessary changes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I accept that; it will not be you. From what you discussed with him there will be a complete reconfiguration.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In your view, as you are the only one who had this conversation, what does that actually mean? There are people in jobs, and it is obvious the whole thing has to change.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Correct.

Deputy Alan Kelly

What does a complete reconfiguration mean? Does it mean people will be sacked? Will they be taken out of jobs? Does it mean he starts again? What is the flavour? The people who work for RTÉ, and their families, are watching and they want to know this answer.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes. I will say that number one, the composition of the people on the executive board, and number two, the culture and working practices of the executive board.

Deputy Alan Kelly

They will all change.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There will be changes on the executive board.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That is up to the incoming director general.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You suspect there will be changes on the executive board.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Again, I would say that is up to the incoming director general.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to come back to the €75,000 top-up benefit for Mr. Tubridy. It was €40,380 in additional costs. That was over 2021 and 2022. We were told that Renault chose to discontinue the events that were cost neutral. I know Covid hit in 2020 but it strikes me as strange that you would discontinue something that is cost neutral. Was there any other reason?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary

To be clear, I did not go back to Renault in 2021 because we had made a commitment to them for three events, which had not happened because of Covid. I was not going to try to do another deal, when we still had not delivered on the first one. That is the reason.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. Did RTÉ contractors have to make declarations of incomes or interests? I have asked a lot of parliamentary questions about influencers across various Departments, and you can see influencer appearances and posting things on social media. Do contractors have to make declarations? I would have thought that is something, which would make all of this transparent.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The register of interests is obviously for senior editorial staff within RTÉ. However, we are drawing up the terms of reference for that, so it may also include contractors who work for RTÉ as on-air talent and so on. That would make sense.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

With the remuneration committee, would you have been aware that there was pressure from an agent? Do RTÉ deal with many agents in terms of staff? Is it a handful?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

My understanding is that NK Management is the biggest agency in Ireland. I think there are two or three others.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay, so the remuneration committee deals with the agent. It does not deal directly. The agent will deal with the substance of what is to be paid, in the context of what is available and so on. Who deals directly with the agent?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The agent would negotiate with the CFO with legal support.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Only the CFO.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

To my knowledge, yes, in terms of these types of contracts.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The CFO would have had discussions with Noel Kelly about Ryan Tubridy. He would have been the primary person dealing with it.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, the director of content would probably also have had a discussion with Noel Kelly about the services required.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Both of those would have had discussions. It was not exclusively the director general who would have had discussions. She said she would have led the discussions-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I am sorry, are you talking about in this case?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins

Well, in this case it looks like the director general did lead the discussions. I am saying that normally the CFO leads the discussion, but the director of content would outline what services were required.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would they have been sidelined on this particular occasion?

Would the chief financial officer and the director of content have been sidelined on this occasion?

Mr. Richard Collins

I can only speak for myself; I cannot speak for the director of content. In terms of this contract, there were two elements to it. I was involved in finalising the five-year deal, but the commercial element I was not involved in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, but if somebody had a job to do and then somebody else was doing their job, you would expect they would be pretty annoyed that they were not allowed to do their job. Were people sidelined on this in the context of the negotiations with Noel Kelly? If they were involved, they knew they would not have been-----

Mr. Richard Collins

I think, to be honest, the director general kept people out of those negotiations. The director general led these negotiations. That is quite exceptional in my experience. Obviously, I was only in to RTÉ when this was all going on, so I had no previous experience of how the negotiations went. Since then, negotiations would be led by me, with the director of content inputting, and some legal advice as well.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If you are going to pay something you have to have the amount in your account in order that you can actually make an offer and pay. They would have been aware that there would have been a difficulty with making an additional payment, presumably.

Mr. Richard Collins

You pay based on a contract. The contractor would invoice you and when the invoice comes in, you would compare that against the contract. If you do not have a contract, there is nothing to pay against. That was the situation we had here.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

But it appears there was substantial pressure on from the agent to conclude this agreement, and €75,000 was underwritten.

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes. So it appears.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That amount would not have been earmarked on the account.

Mr. Richard Collins

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would it not have-----

Mr. Richard Collins

That amount went through the barter account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know it went through the barter account there was nothing-----

Mr. Richard Collins

There was nothing provided for that in the accounts. It was not budgeted for in the main RTÉ accounts. It was routed through the barter account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The chief financial officer knew there would not have been the money to pay this. It had not come in through the remuneration committee. It had not been agreed.

Mr. Richard Collins

No, that is not true. No. The chief financial officer did not know - I am talking about myself - did not know about these amounts.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. Just a couple of final questions regarding to Ms Forbes. She claimed in her statement that she never knew about the €120,000 loyalty payments - and end-of-year payments - in the years 2017 to 2019. She had, of course, been director general since 2016. The board is stating that Ms Forbes is the only person who knew about the Renault deal, but she has stated that she does not know anything about it. You are also saying that she is the only person who knew - and this has come up a number of times today - about the payments relating to the period 2020 to 2022. When the whole situation is summed up and we look at what is taking place, do you not find that those two issues alone blow any credibility in terms of a lot of the stuff we heard here today? Would you not agree with that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Is that addressed to me, Chair?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Just in terms of that and in terms of the payments, I looked at everything over six days in order to prepare for this. From what I have seen, it would appear that the two people who knew about the payments were the director general and the director of commercial. In terms of the payments themselves, obviously they also came to the CFO.

An Cathaoirleach

Can I ask the CFO a general question on the diversionary route. I call it the diversionary route because that it what it was, diversionary. The purpose was to hide payments. One thing that struck me was the actual cost of these barter accounts. In order to move €30,000 to sponsor the events for Renault it cost more than €47,000. Paying €150,000 to Ryan Tubridy cost €230,000. You were aware of these. Were you aware of the actual level of fees that were being charged on the barter accounts?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not aware of the level of fees that were being charged.

An Cathaoirleach

Would you not be aware that 35% or 40% was being added?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not aware of that.

An Cathaoirleach

Would you not?

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not.

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Mr. Richard Collins

The history of the barter account is that there was a lot of activity on it in the years leading up to 2020.

An Cathaoirleach

But you were aware that RTÉ was using barter accounts.

Mr. Richard Collins

I was aware they were using it.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there 35% fee charges on all of those? Is that standard?

Mr. Richard Collins

I do not know what is standard for barter accounts. If I can just explain, there was a lot of activity on the barter account up to 2019. There was very little activity in 2020 and 2021. Very little went through it. In 2022 then, these transactions went through. None of them were passed by me. I was not asked to raise any invoices or approve anything that went through it. In terms of the cost of the barter account, to be honest, I only became aware of it when I dug into the barter account to get a deeper understanding of it.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we have a list of the credit notes issued over the past ten years by RTÉ? Can that be supplied to the committee? To return to the issue of the top ten earners, who signs off on that? Who signed off on the earnings list that has been given over the years? Would that be Mr. Collins?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes. Let me go back to the earnings from 2017 to 2019. They would have been audited as part of the 2019 audit. They were reviewed by Deloitte at that stage. They were not published for another year until January 2021, I think. At that stage, there would have been a meeting to sign them off prior to publication.

An Cathaoirleach

And the more recent years. Two-year stages, as I understand it, for the more recent ones.

Mr. Richard Collins

The more recent one was this year.

An Cathaoirleach

Would you have signed off on that?

Mr. Richard Collins

Yes, that was in January of this year.

An Cathaoirleach

You would have signed off on that.

Mr. Richard Collins

Again, I explained the approval process yesterday. The director general, the director of content and myself would have looked at those before they were issued.

An Cathaoirleach

But you were aware there were extra payments-----

Mr. Richard Collins

No, I was not aware at that stage.

An Cathaoirleach

-----in relation to Ryan Tubridy.

Mr. Richard Collins

I was not aware at that stage.

An Cathaoirleach

Ryan Tubridy, no?

Mr. Richard Collins

No. I was not aware of anything until this process started with Grant Thornton.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Richard Collins

Which was in March or April.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. You have been taking a list of the documents required by the committee. We have the Dee Forbes contract outlined and the resignation period that is required. Can the committee have that? Can that be added to the list of documents? We will need the tripartite agreement, which was mentioned already. The Ryan Tubridy five-year contract - we need a copy of that. The draft letter sent over by Noel Kelly in the final hours of negotiations saying "Here you are". We will also need copies of the barter agreement and the arrangement that is in place. There must be some arrangement with this barter company.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can we also have a list of all transactions through that barter account?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, I think we have asked for that. What will happen is that when the transcript is available and when the Minister, the secretariat and the civil servants involved have looked at it, we will send over a full list. We ask RTÉ to try to comply with that as quickly as possible. We know some of it will be laborious enough to put together, but it is really important that we get it as soon as possible.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Collins made reference to a car allowance of €25,000 earlier on. Can the committee get a detailed breakdown as to who has that allowance within RTÉ and details of whether it is vouched or how it is paid out?

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I thank the witnesses from RTÉ for attending and the officials from Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media for their work in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for attending and assisting the committee in preparing and helping it to carry out its work. Is it agreed that the clerk with seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we will note and publish any of the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

The Committee of Public Accounts is adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 July 2023. Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday , 6 July 2023.