COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 21 Sep 2023

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The first item on the agenda for public business this morning is the minutes of our meetings of 6 July, 11 July and 13 July. These have been circulated to members. Do any members wish to raise any matters regarding the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

We now move on to accounts and financial statements. We have a lot of those this morning. Some 68 sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 10 July and 15 September 2023. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Seamus McCarthy, to address these. Before he begins, I suggest that, because there are so many, we might take groups of six or so at a time. If he were to go through the whole lot, members will have forgotten points they wanted to raise. Perhaps we could take five or six at a time and then pause. I think that is the best thing to do.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We will take them in sections. I am happy to take questions on individual ones as we go. I have grouped the financial statements into categories. The first is departmental funds, the finance accounts for 2022. These had a turnover of €80.6 billion and received a clear audit opinion. The second is the local government fund account for 2022. This had a turnover of €886 million and received a clear audit opinion. The third is the credit union fund for 2022. This is a much smaller fund and it received a clear audit opinion.

With regard to the 68 sets of accounts and financial statements, one thing that is quite clear is that the focus of the committee on the early submission of accounts has worked. There are very few cases in which there has been a delay, which is great to see. That is something that had been a problem in the past. Was the Chair going to ask a question?

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I will move on to semi-State bodies and their subsidiaries. The Child and Family Agency received a clear audit opinion for 2022. However, I will draw attention to the disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. The value of that was €5.4 million.

Next is the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. However, I draw attention to ongoing discussions between the office of the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman and the Department of Finance about liability for the funding of staff pensions.

Sixth is the Adoption Authority of Ireland, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. The seventh is the Industrial-----

An Cathaoirleach

Before the Comptroller and Auditor General goes any further, I will ask him a question on the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman. Is the issue just with the pensions liability that is accruing? Is that what the Comptroller and Auditor General is referring to or are there other matters involved?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The ombudsman raises revenue through levies on financial transactions. The question is really one of who is going to pay the pensions or who is going to accept liability for them and whether these liabilities are going to appear on the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman's accounts or are going to be carried by the Department of Finance. The office has been collecting employee contributions for pensions and making employer pension contributions. As far as the ombudsman is concerned, that is it; the money goes over to the Department of Finance or into the Exchequer, out of which the liabilities will be paid in the future. There is therefore no risk if the liabilities are greater or lesser. That is the nub of the thing. The problem is that this has been dragging on for a considerable period. I believe it has been six years at this stage. There seems to be no way of arriving at a final resolution of the matter.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it not for the Secretary General of the Department and the Accounting Officer in the office of the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman to knock heads together?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Ultimately, it is for the Department to make a final determination on the matter, one way or the other.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, I suggest that we write a short letter to the Secretary General of the Department of Finance pointing out that we are concerned that this matter has not been resolved and asking him to inform us of any progress. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have just one issue. It is in response to the point made about up-to-date accounts. It is really very good that we are seeing that but there is one big exception, the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Correct.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there other exceptions?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There are a number of, if one likes, embedded arrears, as we would describe them. There have been delays with getting a number of the North-South bodies completed. Waterways Ireland, for example, is one. Again, there has been an accounting issue there that needed resolution. I can come back to the committee and maybe present a schedule of accounts that we are dealing with pre-2022 at this stage.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That would be really helpful.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I will come back in the next week or two on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Mr. McCarthy might take the next bunch of six.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I mentioned the Adoption Authority of Ireland. No. 7 is the Industrial Development Agency, or IDA Ireland, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 8 is the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. I will come back to No. 9 in a moment and I will explain why. No. 10 is the Office of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 11 is the Health and Safety Authority, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 12 is the Commission for Aviation Regulation and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion. The Commission for Aviation Regulation is also responsible for the Travellers' Protection Fund and travel agents' and tour operators' bond account, which is No. 9 on the list and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion. I wanted to link those together. Is there anything further on those?

An Cathaoirleach

We are happy enough there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. 13 is The Gathering project of 2013. This is a dormant company and a subsidiary of Fáilte Ireland. In 2022, its transactions were nil and it received a clear audit opinion. I have an obligation to audit in that case but there were no transactions and Fáilte Ireland wants to keep the company in existence in a dormant capacity. It feels that it might, at some point, use it again in the future.

No. 14 is the Irish Museum of Modern Art, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 15 is the Pensions Authority and it received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 16 is the National Lottery Fund and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion. Connected with that is No. 17, the Regulator of the National Lottery and it received a clear audit opinion for 2022. Is there anything further on those?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I note that we had the Regulator for the National Lottery in and there was no action taken when it was in. There has since been action regarding controls around problem gamblers and it was good to see that. We had an unsatisfactory engagement but I was pleased to see that it is finding a few teeth for a change, which is good to see.

An Cathaoirleach

It is good that there has been a change. It needed that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It certainly did.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. 18 is Transport Infrastructure Ireland and it received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 19 is the Environmental Protection Agency, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 20 is Science Foundation Ireland and it received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 21 is Rásaíocht Con Éireann, formerly known as the Irish Greyhound Board, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. The next four are subsidiaries of Rásaíocht Con Éireann. No. 22 is Greyhound Racing Operations Ireland Limited, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 23 is Abargrove Limited, which deals with catering at tracks. It received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 24 is the Shelbourne Greyhound Stadium Limited, which holds the asset at Shelbourne. For 2022, it received a clear audit opinion. No. 25 is the Rásaíocht Con Éireann Irish Retired Greyhound Trust, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. I might pause there.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We know the €19.1 million comes from the Exchequer via the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund and the levy on gambling. From where does the Greyhound Racing Operations Ireland Limiited and the other three derive their funding?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Obviously Abargrove Limited, which concerns catering, bars and so on, is effectively funded across the counter by punters paying for food and beverages. There would be admissions to the greyhound tracks and maybe the hiring of premises and so on, which would be coming through in Greyhound Racing Operations Ireland Limited.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is not public money?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is trading activity. These companies are running the cash aspects of the business. There would obviously be a tote as well, and they would be going through these companies. They are all consolidated into the financial statements of Rásaíocht Con Éireann. All of that income is recognised in the parent company.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The mind boggles that the Comptroller and Auditor General would be auditing Abargrove Limited. Their accounts are within one organisation really.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In a way, that is the business that is feeding the head office accounts. There was a debate back when we were given the audit. These were regarded as commercial State bodies, or semi-commercial State bodies. There was a discussion as to whether it was appropriate for the Comptroller and Auditor General to be doing the audits for these. The argument at the time was there was so much money going into Rásaíocht Con Éireann and Horse Racing Ireland from the public purse that it was significantly more than what was coming from trading, admissions and so on and that therefore, it was appropriate that there would be oversight. It is a similar case with Horse Racing Ireland, their subsidiaries, the various tracks and so on.

An Cathaoirleach

With the parent body, there is substantial funding going in?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is, yes. A number of years ago, Rásaíocht Con Éireann had significantly more subsidiaries. There was effectively a company for each track and, in a way, we would not have been able to know what was going on in the organisation if we were not auditing the tracks as well. They restructured along more functional lines, if one likes, rather than individual tracks. Will I carry on?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, carry on.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. 26 is Bord Bia, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 27 is Teagasc and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion. No. 28 is Moorepark Technology Limited, which is a subsidiary of Teagasc. It also received a clear audit opinion. No. 29 is the Road Safety Authority and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion. However, I will draw attention to the disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. In that case, it was about €1.75 million.

No. 30 is the National Transport Authority, which received a clear audit opinion for 2022. No. 31 is the Arts Council and for 2022 it received a clear audit opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to the Road Safety Authority, what was the non-compliance with procurement rules? What was being procured?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The nature of it? Some of it was technical. I think the authority gives the amounts but does not explain the nature of the services. The committee would possibly have to follow up with it on that. It explains the amounts, the contracts and what it has done to deal with the contracts but it does not specifically call out the nature of the-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sometimes, as in the medical profession, there are not two suppliers or providers.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That can be an issue.

An Cathaoirleach

I propose that we write to the authority and ask it for an exact breakdown of what the figures relate to and the reason it did not tender properly.

Does Mr. McCarthy want to deal with Nos. 32 to 39 before we deal with the financial State bodies?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

These are basically the subsidiaries of NAMA. All of these can be discussed next week when the NAMA representatives are in. I do not think it is necessary to call out the individual names. They all received a clear audit opinion. Before the end of the last session, the head office or group accounts were presented. The affairs of the subsidiaries would all have been consolidated into the results of the parent, which results the committee received previously.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could I ask about the auditing costs and how they are apportioned? Is that applied to each of these?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, we effectively have a single charge for all the NAMA business. It is a single fee based on-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So it covers the cost?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It does. We charge on a per diem basis. Therefore, we charge at a specific rate based on the number of days we have to put into the audit.

No. 40 relates to the final financial State body, the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and the accounts are for 2022. The body received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw attention to a disclosure in the financial statements of losses that are expected to arise for the State from a suspected fraud on an on-lender. The expected cost arising for the State is of the order of €860,000. This relates to a couple of loan guarantee schemes in respect of which the State was carrying a certain liability. It was expected that this payout would occur, and it is likely to be passed back to the Departments funding the guarantee schemes, which have been organised by SBCI. I point out for the record that when SBCI presented its financial statements, it put an incorrect date on my audit certificate. It is actually dated 2022 but in fact I signed it in 2023, obviously. I believe SBCI is going to take steps to correct the record in relation to that. I signed on 22 June 2023, contrary to what is stated in the financial statements themselves.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On that, how is the fraud identified? I know the Garda is now involved but was it brought to the attention of Mr. McCarthy? Was it identified by SBCI?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

My understanding is that it was originally identified by the on-lender when loans that had been issued were defaulting. When it looked at these, it believed or suspected that fraudulent documentation had been provided as the basis for the loans. Therefore, it contacted SBCI, which looked at the matter and believed it would be liable for a payout to the on-lender. The on-lender will obviously be suffering a loss as well.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that loss shared?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is shared.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Do controls occur after a Garda investigation or is there immediate identification of how the fraud can be prevented from happening again?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That would be the prudent thing to do. If you identified that there has been some breach, you would look to improve your vetting procedures or whatever, and do that immediately when the matter is passed on to An Garda Síochána for prosecution, or at least investigation.

Let me move on to the education sector. No. 41 concerns Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design + Technology. In this case, the accounting period is 2021–22. The institute received a clear audit opinion.

No. 42 is the University of Limerick and the accounts are for 2021–22. It received a clear audit opinion.

No. 43 is the National University of Ireland, and the accounts are for the calendar year 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

No. 44 is SOLAS, and the accounts are for 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

No. 45 is Munster Technological University, which is a new body. This is its first period of account. The accounts cover the eight-month period from 1 January to 31 August 2021. It received a clear audit opinion. However, attention is drawn to the disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. In this case, the figure is about €1.66 million.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Do we know what it relates to?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Deputy was referring to overholding on the completion of accounts, and obviously there was a delay in the completion. The accounts of the constituent bodies of Munster Technological University had to be completed before the first accounts for Munster Technological University could be completed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The university sector is one that we pay particular attention to because there have been repeat offenders in a range of areas over the past number of years. When something is started, the first year is really important, but it is also important in terms of starting as you mean to go on. What does the material level of non-compliance relate to? It is not indicative of a culture I would like to see repeated in this particular institution.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It has not given a lot of detail.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can we follow that up? I am referring to the very fact that it was late.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is not a good sign.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. 46 also concerns a technological university, the Technological University of Shannon: Midlands Midwest. Again, this is a new body and it is the first period of account. In this case, the accounting period is 1 October 2021 to 31 August 2022, an 11-month period. The university received a clear audit opinion. It is an amalgamation of the former institutes of technology of Limerick and Athlone.

No. 47 relates to Mary Immaculate College, Coláiste Mhuire Gan Smál, for the accounting period 2021-22. It received a clear audit opinion but again I am drawing attention to the disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. In this case, the amount is €528,000. The threshold above which I draw attention to non-compliance is €500,000. The college is close to being under this. Inevitably in organisations, there will be some element of procurement in this category, for a variety of reasons, but I have consistently tried to draw attention to it where it is over the €500,000 mark.

Again, like the submission of accounts, that has had an effect in organisations and there is much more effort on that.

No. 48 is The Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology. This is now a dissolved body. These are cessation accounts for the period 1 September 2021 to 31 March 2022. That received a clear audit opinion. No. 49 is The Royal Irish Academy of Music for the calendar year 2022. That received a clear audit opinion. No. 50 is the Educational Research Centre for 2022. That received a clear audit opinion. No. 51 is An tÚdarás um Ard-Oideachas, the Higher Education Authority, for 2022. That received a clear audit opinion.

No. 52 is the Longford and Westmeath Education and Training Board for 2022. That received a clear audit opinion. However, I again draw attention to the disclosure of material level of non-compliance with procurement rules to a value of €778,000 in that case. They give some information about the nature of it. Repairs and maintenance, core consumer goods, security, recruitment and telecoms are the top spends in that case. No. 53 is Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board for 2022. That received a clear audit opinion. Again, however, I draw attention to disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. They again give a level of detail. I apologise, because what I read previously relating to the Longford and Westmeath Education and Training Board is not the case but in that case, they give a comprehensive list of the categories, and similarly with Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board.

No. 54 is the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment for 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

No. 55 is the Dundalk Institute of Technology for 2021-22. It received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw attention to a number of matters. First, I draw attention to the going concern relating to the Dundalk Institute of Technology. The institute has had deficits in recent years, which have effectively run down its income and expenditure reserves. It envisages that deficits will continue for a number of further years but by 2024-25, because they have a plan, they should be able to get back on track and move back to a surplus position. They have analysed the thing, they have a plan and so they are satisfied to present the accounts on a going concern basis. Another issue that arose was unauthorised bank accounts. Six bank accounts were identified, which were held in various departments, for taking in student funds for one reason or another. The balances in the accounts at the end of the accounting period totalled €29,000. These were probably small scale, but there are not complete accounting records going back, so the total value of the funds going through them is not really known. I think they are moving to close down those accounts. Finally, I draw attention to termination of employment payments that were made in the year of account. The figure was €69,393. However, prior to being paid a severance payment, a staff member received gross salary payments totalling €205,000 while on administrative leave. That is a significant expense in that particular case. I do not know if there are any questions relating to that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is the one that jumped out, when Mr. McCarthy started talking about unauthorised bank accounts, termination of employment payments and going concern. It screams that this has not been functioning properly. This is obviously somewhere the Comptroller and Auditor General has a role in auditing. Surely, this would have been know about in the Department too. What is the notification process, and what is the accountability to the Department?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. It would have been the Department of Education before the new Department was set up.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The funding and a lot of the oversight of an institute of technology would have been through the Higher Education Authority, HEA. However, there would have been some relationship with the Department too. The Department obviously monitors financial statements and sees these kinds of problems developing. There have been a number of institutes of technology over the years, which have had deficit positions but again, working with the HEA some of those have been turned around. There are things like drops in student numbers, for reasons like courses not being as popular. Coming through the Covid period too there have been difficulties. From the information available, the unauthorised bank accounts were probably to collect money for field trips or various fundraisers that were run in specific departments. You do not want to see any bank accounts that are not within the financial statements and being fully accounted for. It is never really a satisfactory position. There is then a question of people voluntarily contributing money. Is it public money or is it private funds they are holding? It could be club money or whatever.

No. 56 is St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra. A number of years ago the teacher training college was amalgamated into Dublin City University, DCU. The assets and liabilities and so on of St. Patrick's College were, in the main, transferred into DCU. An amount of money, I think it was €1.3 million, was left in the St. Patrick's College account because of the possibility of historical claims against the college. It was felt appropriate to leave an amount of €1.3 million with St. Patrick's College. We have been auditing it for a number of years and accounts have been presented, but there are no transactions on it, and there have not been any claims. From a structural perspective, the board of the college has decided to transfer that fund into the charities funds of the archdiocese of Dublin, with an expectation that if no claims occur in the future, the moneys will be transferred back to DCU.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is only resting in their account.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, that is a way of putting it. It means there will not be any further financial statements from St. Patrick's College for me to audit. I obviously will not be auditing the charitable funds of the archdiocese of Dublin. I draw attention to the basis of preparation of the financial statements. They were prepared not on a going concern basis, because the organisation has been wound down and dissolved.

No. 58 is Technological University Dublin. These accounts relate to 2020 and 2021. I signed off on those on 25 November 2022, but due to an oversight they were not submitted to the Department until this summer. In fact, we had looked for accounts that had been signed but had not been presented. When we queried why they had not been presented, that triggered them being submitted. They were presented on 6 September. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of those accounts, but I drew attention to disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. The figure in that case was €1.8 million. However, I should draw the committee's attention to the fact that since the audit was completed, an accounting error has been identified in the accounts of the technological university. It appears it was overestimating the amount of recurrent grant it was due and it had a debtor, which in fact should not have been recognised. The reasons the error occurred are being investigated. We expect to examine it thoroughly in the context of the 2022 audit, which is ongoing.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will it be reported on?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It will be reported on, yes.

No. 59 is the State Examinations Commission for 2022. That received a clear audit opinion.

Moving to the health bodies, No. 60, the hepatitis C and HIV compensation tribunals special account for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. The hepatitis C and HIV compensation tribunal reparation fund for 2022 received a clear opinion.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that fund time limited?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. I think those accounts have been in operation since the 1990s and are still there. There are obviously people who have claims and need support. Particularly with hepatitis C, it can be a long time before a condition deteriorates and leads to a compensation claim.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. McCarthy take the last six items? They are a group and there are a few issues around them.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The National Cancer Registry Ireland board received a qualified audit opinion for 2022. This happens in relation to health bodies. The accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. That is standard for many health bodies at the direction of the Minister for Health.

No. 63 is the National Haemophilia Council for 2022, which was given a clear audit opinion.

No. 64 is the Irish Blood Transfusion Service for 2022, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 65 is the Mental Health Commission for 2022, which received a qualified audit opinion because it accounts for retirement benefit entitlements as they become payable.

A qualified audit opinion was given on the same basis to No. 66, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland for 2022. However, I also draw attention to a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules to the value of €695,000.

No. 67 is St. James's Hospital for 2022, which received a clear audit opinion. However, attention is drawn to disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. In this case, on a sample basis, the hospital identified a 15% rate of non-compliant procurement. It is not clear whether that can be extrapolated to the whole of procurement by the hospital, but in any event it is a significant level.

No. 68, the Dublin Dental University Hospital for 2022, received a clear audit opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the value of the non-compliance in respect of St. James's Hospital?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As the hospital looked at a sample, the value is relatively low. It sample-tested its procurements to see whether they were compliant. The figure that came out was 15% of the spend in the sample. It is difficult to know whether that can be extrapolated fully but it is of concern that a sample would give that level of non-compliance.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General make a comparison with previous audits? We know that within the health service a 2022 audit may relate to things that happened in 2021, and Covid obviously played a significant part then. Is the non-compliance substantially different from the profile of previous non-compliance?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

From memory, it is not that different. We can get the figure for 2021 and maybe 2020. We will communicate those after the meeting.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Do we have detail on that as to where-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. There is some detail but again it is a sample.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Maybe we should follow up with some detail. We are presuming the sample will give a fair reflection right across, but it may relate to the administration department as opposed to, let us say, the accident and emergency department.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is no detail of the nature of the procurement that was non-compliant. St. James's Hospital explained the type of procurement process it used but it turned out to be inappropriate, given the scale of what it subsequently procured. It has not talked about the nature of it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can we follow up on that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The committee has correspondence from another hospital; I think it is from Children's Health Ireland, CHI. It references a lot of laboratory work-----

An Cathaoirleach

Specialist.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

-----specialist laboratory testing that it paid for. CHI found somebody who could do it and established a contract. There may be an element of that proprietary product being bought, and medical choices being made about this being the product the hospital wants to use, without any kind of competitive process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

To be fair, if somebody has a condition, you are not going to go through a process that will take three months. If somebody requires something-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Certainly not for a one-off thing. You will find somebody who can do it.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Is it agreed to note the financial statements? Agreed. As usual, a listing of the accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

As there is a long list of correspondence, I suggest we break for ten minutes. We will resume at 11.20 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.08 a.m. and resumed at 11.25 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We will move to No. 3, correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion at this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee meetings and published on the committee's web page. The secretariat has done a lot of work to get this correspondence ready for the meeting because a substantial amount was received over the summer period.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged matters for discussion is category B, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings. No. R2022B, from Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General, Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, is dated 6 July and provides information that we requested at our meeting on 1 June 2023. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I flagged No. R2022B for discussion. The issue is under-performance regarding the number of local authority social housing builds. The figure trotted out indicated there were 1,666 direct builds, in other words, local authorities directly did the design and procurement and used contractors to finish the building. A total of 1,666 such units were delivered. The overall number, including approved housing bodies, AHBs, and so on, indicates that local authorities have completely under-performed. A string of local authorities is listed on pages 3 and 4. I know people in the local authorities state that the Department is holding up matters. The statement shows figures for Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Louth. Delivery in Offaly in my constituency was very bad. Only three units were delivered in Roscommon. In Sligo, a big county, only 13 units were delivered. I suggest we flag this matter for discussion with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage when its officials appear. In the middle of a housing crisis, we had an underspend of €1.2 billion by the end of last year.

This correspondence states in black and white that only 1,666 houses were built by local authorities. Local authority officials and councillors are complaining. This list shows the worst performing local authorities. Maybe it is not their fault but we need to find out what is going on. Some local authorities, including Roscommon, had only three units delivered. Offaly delivered 115 units but had a target of 180. A few local authorities have over-performed and exceeded their targets, including Laois. Well done to them. Clearly, there are problems between the Department and local authorities. I ask members to support my proposal to put this matter on the agenda of our next meeting with the Department.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I can see from the correspondence that Kildare had a new build target of 370 units and 372 units were delivered. The tabular statement does not tell the whole story. It uses the language of confusion. We often hear the Minister or Taoiseach stated the Government has delivered when, in fact, many of these new builds are turnkey. With a lot of these turnkey units, a planning application is made, the houses are built, people expect them to be put on the market and a local authority or an approved housing body then buys them in bulk. Another type is long-lease units, which represent mind-boggling poor value for money.

Social housing is seen as a product. They are leased for 25 years. There is a review of the rent after four years and there is only one way that will go. After 25 years they have to be refurbished and handed back to the original owner. There is no asset at the end of it. It is incredibly bad value.

An Cathaoirleach

We have a breakdown of the previous correspondence on this. We do not have that per county. There is a breakdown across the 26 counties on an item of correspondence we received in about May or June, which gives a figure of 166 builds by local authorities, using contractors, and that is fine. As the Deputy correctly said, the majority are being delivered as turnkeys. I will not quote the figure but I believe it is something similar for turnkeys. This is pushing out first-time buyers. It has happened in the estate I live in, where an AHB came in and bought 12 in bulk.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When looking at this, we should not look exclusively at the direct builds. We have to look at them, but also at the acquisitions and how they are acquired, and the long leases, and break them down into segments to see the totality. It is also useful to look at the acquisition cost and the project longer-term costs. That comes into play with this. In regard to the long-term cost, leasing something over 25 years without an asset at the end means there is still an obligation to house the person if it is not a repeat lease.

An Cathaoirleach

Of course, yes, there is a cumulative cost over the term of 25 years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If we are going to do a piece of work on what we are building or delivering, let us look at what that means in compartmentalised pieces.

An Cathaoirleach

Can I make a suggestion here? We will give Graham Doyle, Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and his staff the opportunity to prepare this for us. We have the breakdown for the 26 counties and the 31 local authorities. We want it broken down under those headings: enhanced lease, turnkey, AHBs and direct builds. The figure for direct builds by local authorities is 166. Can I suggest, in anticipation of the fact that we may decide on a new work programme, and I hope we do, that we bring in the Department in the next few months to give it the opportunity to break down that figure per local authority? In other words, in County Kildare, how many of those were leased long term? How many are turnkeys, how many are AHBs and how many are direct builds? Would that help?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. We will see an understandable difference in different parts of the country because such matters as land prices can be different.

An Cathaoirleach

Just to develop it, we can also ask for the estimated cumulative cost over a lease for ten years. I have certainly seen some for ten years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, there were some ten-year leases. Many of the more recent ones are longer.

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask for the cumulative cost of a lease for ten years and a lease for 25 years of a unit as opposed to a direct build. We will look for that as well. We will send a note setting out that at today's meeting we took a decision to seek this.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it also possible to ask how the initial development is financed? For example, are county councils buying properties and doing the enhanced leasing scheme from AHBs that have been financed through the Housing Finance Agency, HSA, and at what cost? There is an issue at the moment in that private developers are looking at costs of 7% or 8% to borrow money that is actually at 0% interest. How have these developments been financed? That may not be a task for the Department. However, the HSA comes under the Department, or does it? It has a significant budget of €5 billion. Is it under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It does come under the Department of housing. It can be called. It has been here before.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is a question of joining the dots. Deputy Catherine Murphy made a significant point. The fact that we have nothing at the end of it means it is nearly as bad as the housing assistance payment.

An Cathaoirleach

It is worse. This is worse.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We need to see where the crossover is and how these projects are financed as well as then bought back.

An Cathaoirleach

We can put that into the correspondence and ask, prior to the next engagement, for it-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It will engage with us when it comes in.

An Cathaoirleach

-----to come back to us with this beforehand so that we will discuss it with the HFA on the day it is in. When we get to the work programme part of our meeting I will suggest strongly, given that we are in a housing crisis and we have these kinds of figures coming in, completely under target-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Doyle got his pay increase so he probably has been working hard.

An Cathaoirleach

For example, in County Roscommon, which is a large county with a population of approximately 70,000, three homes were built.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We also want to know what the housing lists are in order to see the figures side by side.

An Cathaoirleach

I would say the housing list has more than three on it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am sure it does.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank members for that contribution.

We move on now to No. R2072 from the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, dated 14 July 2023. It provides an update regarding further investigations into RTÉ. It is proposed to note and publish that item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will just seek an update on that. When members read the correspondence, they will see there are timelines in it with expectations in terms of some of the work. Obviously, the Grant Thornton report came out during the summer period. There is an item regarding Mazars and the two advisory committees which were to start work in August. We will look for an update on what progress has been made at this point in time.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, and in particular the one about the redundancies.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was the forensic accountant, was it?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was it Mazars that was going to do that?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not think so.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Whoever it was, we need to have it for our hearing with them.

An Cathaoirleach

The next item is No. R2078 from Ms Eilish Hardiman, chief executive of Children's Health Ireland, CHI, dated 20 July in reply to information requested by the committee regarding non-compliant procurement. I propose that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Members will recall that we dealt with medical matters and financial statements earlier in the meeting. I do not see a great explanation for a couple of them. Under technical services and projects, there is €28,485 for painting services. It says that the tender process was completed and a framework put in place for painting. Why, at that point, were painting services not tendered out as general building works? Under general buildings works, there is €60,000 and more than €100,000 for plumbing services. Under professional services, non-clinical, there are figures of €44,000 and €30,000. I do not see why such matters would not be tendered out by CHI. There is €31,000 relating to ICT expenditure which is critical to support the existing ICT structure. There is another item relating to agency staff. The cost against clothing and cleaning is almost €30,000. I do not see why such non-medical items cannot be tendered out. I propose that we should write back and express the committee's concern and request that it implements corrective actions quickly in regard to non-medical issues and services that are technical in nature, not medical. That is agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Some of the matters that the Cathaoirleach referred to jumped out at me, for example, plumbing services. The amount seems substantial for something that is of an emergency nature. We can differentiate between purchases required due to time sensitivities and patient-specific requirements for cardiology procedures. Those are completely understandable, given the nature of what is involved in children's healthcare, and we do not want to impede actions that need to happen quickly from a clinical point of view, but it shows a lack of workforce planning. The agency recruitment tells me something about the organisation. This organisation will be running a large children's hospital, so it is important that we not only see these lists, but we also see how Children's Health Ireland, CHI, is functioning. A range of issues with orthopaedic services at Temple Street have been in the news in recent days. What do we say about these lists in terms of recruitment? A degree of agency staff will always be required, but that element is almost built in now. CHI refers to how it is continuously challenged by staffing shortages across many specialties and functions, but when will that change? Should we be expressing our concern to the Minister for Health about this as an issue that has come to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts? There is not an ongoing relationship with agency staff. It affects things as straightforward as knowing where things are stored. In particular, it affects relationships with children in hospital. This situation screams “chaos” at me. We should be drawing the Minister’s attention to the fact that we find this an unsatisfactory way of running services.

An Cathaoirleach

The figure under the agency and recruitment heading is nearly €400,000. It is one of the ones that-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is the-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That is the arrangement fee. It is not the actual cost of the agency staff.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not the pay, which is even more expensive. In the figures I have seen, bringing in agency staff works out as being as much as 30% more expensive. This is happening in many hospitals.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is on the HSE.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would it not be better for us to pick out one and say that we are concerned about what we are seeing, given what it is telling us about how CHI is functioning? We do not want to see that continuing to happen. When we have a beautiful large new hospital that costs an arm and a leg, there needs to be workforce planning. We can watch how the situation at this hospital goes and see whether it can be resolved.

An Cathaoirleach

Regarding the non-technical aspects, for example, cloth cleaning and painting, I suggest that we notify CHI of our concerns.

I will come to the agency matter now. I ran a highlighter through it on my document as well. The Deputy is correct. I suggest that we write to the Minister and: note staffing as one example of the issues before us and that the arrangement fee, as the Comptroller and Auditor General termed it, for agency staff and recruitment is significant and above what it should be; here is an organisation that will run the national children’s hospital when it is completed; and this is an issue that needs to be got on top of by the Minister and senior HSE management, including the new chief executive. We can ask what is being done to make progress on this and to ensure that we not end up in an unplanned situation. I imagine that the cost of paying the staff will be much more than what we see on this page. As the Deputy mentioned, this issue signposts how the organisation is being run and that there are problems. We can express our concerns about that. Is my suggestion adequate?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

We can cover those issues and notify the Minister of our concerns about them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

And ask how they will be resolved in advance of the new national children’s hospital opening.

An Cathaoirleach

We can express our serious concerns, given that the hospital will open within the next 12 to 18 months and this problem could escalate into a much more serious situation. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Next is No. R2094 B from Mr. Ciarán Breen, director of the State Claims Agency, dated 26 July. It provides information that we requested arising from our meeting with that body on 2 March. I propose that we note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is this a notified audit? I presume it is. Will it include a health and safety audit? Notifying the outcome to us would be useful. We spoke to the State Claims Agency about Casement Aerodrome, where there are ongoing issues. Some of those have been resolved, but I am particularly interested in No. 5 in the document, according to which the State Claims Agency’s enterprise risk management unit has scheduled an audit of Baldonnel to take place in September. It is obviously a notified audit, but what about the health and safety aspect? This may be a case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. There were significant issues, there are people with very adverse health problems and a large number of people have died prematurely even though the aerodrome is not a gigantic employer. I have a running list of people who have died and what their ages were. These were pre-retirement deaths. Some of them were quite young. We must be sure that this issue is dealt with completely. Will the audit have an historical element? According to the correspondence, Casement Aerodrome’s historical claims relate to a period no later than 2012. I presume that some of the issues have been dealt with now. I believe the State Claims Agency told us that it was dealing with 11 live claims from this situation, but the number could be significantly higher. It is a difficult case for people to prove.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Deputy wish to ask that question of the State Claims Agency?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I presume it is a notified audit, so I wish to know whether it will include a health and safety audit. We can not allow this situation to ever recur.

An Cathaoirleach

I imagine that, given how this happened in the hangar and elsewhere on site, there will be a health and safety element.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We should ask the agency to revert to us with the results.

An Cathaoirleach

Obviously, this situation is on the Deputy’s patch. The claims relate to matters that may have arisen from health and safety issues.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It involves people from a number of locations. Baldonnel is in south-west Dublin and I am aware of people in my constituency who have suffered significant health issues, but this involves people from a range of different areas.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Regarding the Prison Service, €56 million is estimated as being the outstanding liability on claims. That includes almost €13 million in respect of the Portlaoise campus alone.

There is a detailed breakdown of it, which shows that there are 22 staff member claims and 69 prisoner claims. There are 11 regarding property. From time to time, the Irish Prison Service representatives are in and we should continue to raise that with them. Some of that, staff would say, is down to not having adequate staff on some of the landings, particularly in some of the more high-security situations. We need to be mindful of that. There is nearly €13 million outstanding in claims alone in respect of Portlaoise and the Midlands Prison, which are on one campus. We will note and publish No. R2094.

I will move on to No. R2098, which is from John McKeon, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection on 28 July. It provides information that we requested regarding the Department’s views on the data protection impact assessment, DPIA, with regard to the public services card, PSC. He gave us a fairly substantial reply. I propose that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy wishes to comment on this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I refer to one paragraph a little bit down. The DPIA in question noted in a preamble to the section on information transparency that an information leaflet provided to people at their PSC registration appointment does not set out the legal basis for biometric processing. The observation that an information leaflet does not reference the legal basis is not at all equivalent to finding no legal basis for such processing or finding that there is no legal basis. I wish to know what the rationale for leaving it out was. It is prudent to have the legal basis. Perhaps we could write back and ask for that.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed. It is written in the opening that the DPIA makes no adverse findings at all related to the legal basis for processing of personal data in respect of a public service card. The issue Deputy Murphy is raising arises in the next paragraph. Okay, that is agreed.

I will move on to No. R2109 from Mr. Liam Sloyan, CEO of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, on 5 July. It provides information that the committee requested regarding waiting lists for NTPF funding. I propose we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I flag this. There is some information on its performance. There is substantial funding going into it. The number of patient episodes progressed reported for 2022 is 153,000. The target for the year was 183,000. It achieved 84% but it needs to try to get closer to 100%. Diagnostics actually exceeded the target by 3%, which is good news. In my opinion, it is not the best way to spend public money. As our health system is in the state that it is, unfortunately we have to use these methods. There was one there that I was not 100% sure about. There are figures for offers accepted and patients suspended, offers accepted and patients suspended - GI scopes, outpatient department appointment offers accepted, authorisations and so on. I am not sure about the category of patients using the NTPF-funded additional medical beds. There is a figure for 2020. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General will be able to explain what that is about.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Is it on the table?

An Cathaoirleach

It is on the table on page 3.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

On page 3?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, the page before that one.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, on the blue table, Table 1.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, that one. Table 1.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Sorry, what was the-----

An Cathaoirleach

I refer to the second to the last figure - patients using NTPF-funded additional beds.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am sorry. Obviously, it is nil values for 2019, 2021 and 2022. In 2020, it potentially is a Covid-related matter. Perhaps it was freeing up capacity or something – I am only speculating.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it not that we took over the private beds-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It could be.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----that were nationalised for Covid?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is this under the remit of the HSE and within that budget?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, the NTPF has a separate budget.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So it is on top-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There are separate financial statements and it is a separate organisation.

An Cathaoirleach

The HSE does not have any direct control over it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not that I am aware of, no. From time to time, they may use capacity in HSE hospitals but it is negotiated, as I understand it.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a bit to go in terms of the patients’ procedures not being progressed. However, at least diagnostics is performing. That is very important given the current circumstances with the health services and waiting times.

I move on to No. R2110 from Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, dated 10 August, which provided information requested regarding the funding of swimming pool projects as part of large-scale sports infrastructure. I propose that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to be quite parochial about this.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that. I know the Deputy will be.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It drives me absolutely bonkers. The standard is one swimming pool for every 50,000 people.

An Cathaoirleach

How many hundred thousand has the Deputy now for one pool?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In Kildare, we have 250,000 people and two public swimming pools. Essentially, I do not understand the rationale for how these get funded if it is not based on population. They are very expensive to run. They are loss-making or they just about break even, but it is critical. Other counties have double the number and half the population. It is crazy-----

An Cathaoirleach

We have a great public pool in Portlaoise, which I use.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Well good luck to you. In north Kildare, for six months, we have a pop-up pool. The GAA in Leixlip have accommodated that.

An Cathaoirleach

Outdoor?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, an outdoor pop-up pool. It has a tarpaulin. However, I would like to see the rationale as to how decisions are made. Years ago, perhaps in 2000, it was decided to upgrade swimming pools and every county was to nominate two locations. Every county was not equal in that; there were big populations and small populations. There did not seem to be a good rationale, and then it was closed. It was then opened again, and the north Kildare one, for example, was supposed to be top of the list. Then, suddenly, there was one built in Castlebar. I do not understand the rationale.

An Cathaoirleach

To help the Deputy with this-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We do not have any Minister now.

An Cathaoirleach

On page 2-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Perhaps that has something to do with it.

An Cathaoirleach

When I was looking at this when preparing for the meeting, I noticed that on page 2, it set out the marking scheme. It was designed to favour projects that were – wait for this – identified by as a priority by the local authority or a national governing body, were multifunctional in nature and cater for a number of sports, provide facilities that are open to the general public, meet the needs of mixed groups and clubs and associations, and prioritise the needs of disadvantaged areas and groups, including people with disabilities. The last one was projects that "provide substantial level of match-funding from the project sponsors". It does not deal with the issue of population that the Deputy raised. That is the one left out of it. The Department officials needs to get their heads around this. What did the Deputy say was the population without a pool again?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is 150,000. In Kildare in total there is just 3,000 short of 250,000 people and there are two public swimming pools.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it be helpful if we wrote to the Department saying that in terms of value for money, in the criteria for the assessment of need, greater focus should be on serving the population?

I am sure the Deputy has studied this better than me, but I read those six points because I remember the issue being raised at a previous meeting. The point that jumped out at me was that population is not mentioned within the marking scheme. The marking scheme needs to take population on board.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. Access relates to that. It does not only apply in my area. For example, people could be queuing. They might have to make an appointment three weeks in advance. In other parts of the country, there are three different choices of swimming pool within 5 km.

An Cathaoirleach

Are they assuming everyone is rich and has a swimming pool in their back gardens?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

No. There should be an objective resource allocation based on criteria. It is useful that the Department is now mapping sporting facilities. That is useful, but the overlay on that map is the point. Population has to matter. There are whole new areas in, for example, Fingal. Area after area has just houses. We are only storing up trouble if we do not balance housing development with other developments, and swimming pools are a critical piece of that. That is my soapbox for today.

An Cathaoirleach

I am very surprised that was not included in the marking system. Today's meeting is about value for money and getting the best out of public funding that the population-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We must also cover the cost. If a swimming pool is busy, it will cover the cost.

An Cathaoirleach

There are two public swimming pools in Laois, which has a population heading for 90,000. There were also two when the population was just over 70,000. There were two public pools then although there was a range of private ones.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The two in Kildare are the same ones that were there 40 years ago although they have been upgraded and rebuilt. There were only two pools in Kildare 40 years ago.

An Cathaoirleach

We will highlight this issue and ask for a response. We will ask for that to be included and if they are not prepared to include it, we will need the rationale.

No. R2118 B is correspondence from Mr. Kevin O'Brien, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, dated 5 July 2023. He informs the committee of the appointment of a new Accounting Officer for Tailte Éireann. This item has not been flagged for discussion, but due to an administrative oversight, no proposed action was included for it on the correspondence list. The proposal is that we note and publish the correspondence. Does anyone wish to comment on this correspondence? It simply points out that a new Accounting Officer has been appointed. Are committee members okay that we note and publish that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In fact, a couple of appointments have been made. Other letters of appointment have already been noted for publication.

An Cathaoirleach

That is agreed. No. R2121 B is from Mr. Brendan Gleeson, Secretary General at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and is dated 23 August. It provides information regarding the horse and greyhound racing fund. I propose that we note and publish it. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Murphy wants to speak briefly on this matter. It is dated 23 August.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May I come back to that one?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. We will put it to one side.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In fact, can we leave that item to next week or the next time we are dealing with correspondence? I have not brought it with me.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That item is picking up on the points that I drew attention to in respect of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, and its 2021 financial statements. The issues included the non-disclosure of remuneration, details as required under the code of practice, and the additional payments that were made to the departing chief executive in 2021. This correspondence is, if you like, outlining the Department's response to attention having been drawn to those matters and the committee's discussion of them. It outlines the steps the Department has taken in response.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have not brought the correspondence with me. I am okay for it to be noted and published.

An Cathaoirleach

Are you? Okay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There will be another opportunity to come back on this point.

An Cathaoirleach

There will. That is for sure. We will note and publish that correspondence.

No. R2125 B is from Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, dated 23 August. It provides information requested by the committee. I propose to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Due to the matters referred to within the correspondence, the Department has requested that this item not be published. I am noting that. The correspondence includes some sensitive information. Deputy Catherine Murphy wants to address this matter.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It states, in respect of investigation 3:

During the investigation, the Investigator was made aware that related matters were under investigation in IFI. The Investigator is currently liaising with IFI to determine the nature and extent of the IFI investigation with a view to identifying appropriate next steps...

I ask that we go back to them and say we want an update on the next steps so we can keep an eye on this.

An Cathaoirleach

The correspondence addresses issues that were raised. There is reference to the installation of cameras on which a lot of progress has been made at last. There is also a reference to investment in racecourses.

No. R2128 B is from Mr. Francis O'Donnell, chief executive of Inland Fisheries Ireland, dated 22 August. The item has not been flagged. It is proposed to note and publish this item, but as it contains personal data, it is proposed that it be published with the personal data redacted. Is that agreed? Agreed. There are some privacy matters to consider in that regard.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thought I had flagged that item.

An Cathaoirleach

There are personal issues involved.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thought I had flagged that item.

An Cathaoirleach

Go ahead.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Point 7 refers to Aasleagh Lodge. It refers to information regarding occasions on which the CEO stayed at the facility, including the duration he spent there. It would be useful for us to see what the regular costs were in the week before and the week after to allow us to make a comparison.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the property, Aasleagh Lodge. I thank the Deputy.

No. R2131 B is correspondence from Mr. Hugh Hume, the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, dated 4 September 2023. It provides an update on a GSOC investigation into alleged financial irregularities associated with the Garda Síochána College in Templemore. I propose we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Murphy flagged this item.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The reply goes into some detail. I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts when it had a lot of debate about Templemore. The correspondence states that the matter was originally referred to GSOC by the then Garda Commissioner, Nóirín O'Sullivan, in June 2017. That is a six-year time lag. It is incredibly frustrating that it has taken so long for GSOC to conclude the matter. There was a public interest in this matter as well as a criminal investigation. This was one of the stand-out pieces we did in the previous Committee of Public Accounts. We should write to the chair of GSOC and ask to be furnished with a copy of the public interest report. I do not think that has any bearing on the matter. Even it is redacted, we need to ask for it. GSOC would presumably have completed that.

If the DPP decides not to prosecute, obviously that is an area where we do not have a remit - once it goes to the DPP. The DPP will make a decision on that but it is taking a very long time. This relates to EU funds. My concern is that this has gone on for so long and the longer something goes on the more difficult it is to make a decision on a prosecution of something. As we cannot continue to follow on, it feels as if nothing can happen because of the length of time. We have to accept that when something falls under the criminal code, it is not for us but when something goes on for that length of time, you have to ask whether the resources are being put into it to allow it to reach the conclusion it should reach in a timely way and whether you are giving it a fighting chance of prosecution.

An Cathaoirleach

Or whether there are other reasons for slowing it down.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not know. I think it would be very useful to find out why did this did take the length of time it did. I know we have been told in the letter that five Garda officers with experience in the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the National Economic Crime Bureau were involved in this. They may have been involved in it but how much of their time went into it? As provided for under the special assistance provision under section 74 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, these officers were removed from the direction and control of the Garda leadership for a protracted period of time. Some of these things do not make sense. If they were removed from that, because it is special assistance, are they only removed for a specific period of time? Is it for six years? There are issues about this that I am really unhappy with.

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest that we write to GSOC. We obviously cannot interfere in the investigation and the outcome. We could express our concern about the length of time it is taking and ask what factors have caused this delay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We should also ask what length of time these-----

An Cathaoirleach

These officers were with GSOC.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This would not be the only thing with GSOC and I would like to know how it works. I remember a very long letter from Mary Ellen Ring that spoke about resources not being adequate. We cannot have these organisations there in theory; they must be there in practice. A period of six years tells us something about the practice.

I also have concerns about what we are being told in that paragraph about the length of time relating to specialist investigators. They certainly were not doing it for six years.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us ask about it. It says here that five officers with experience in the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the National Economic Crime Bureau are involved so these are very specialist officers. Let us find out the length of time they were seconded for and were full time on this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes but if you read the next line, which states that as provided for under the special assistance provisions of section 74 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, these officers were removed from the direction and control of Garda leadership, seconded to GSOC and placed under the direct authority of the GSOC senior investigator on this case. Was this for six years?

An Cathaoirleach

Was it solely on that case?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was it for a portion of their time? Are there Chinese walls? It does not make any sense.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us ask the question, express our concern about the delay and get clarification around the length of time and whether it was their sole focus.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

A commitment was given by Nóirín O'Sullivan who tasked Assistant Commissioner John O'Driscoll with preparing a report. This was specifically to do with EU funds. Was this report produced? If this is not related to the issue that has gone to the DPP, can we have sight of that report? I think this will be another one of these tests where we see how this travels in terms of the DPP but also with regard to how GSOC works because it will not be the last case that goes there via the Committee of Public Accounts from a hearing. I am not happy. Can we ask about that? Has that report been prepared? Is there any reason we cannot see it? I want us to ask whether that report has been prepared.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed. No. R2074 C is correspondence from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 17 July 2023, which is a request to the committee to seek updates regarding governance and financial procedures at the Garda Training College in Templemore.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is the same thing.

An Cathaoirleach

I propose that we note and publish that. The Deputy is happy enough that we have already dealt with that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am very unhappy but happy.

An Cathaoirleach

I know. The Deputy has the committee's support for that one.

The next category is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. R2085 C, from Mr. Fintan Gorman, former chairperson of Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, dated 21 July 2023. Mr. Gorman contests certain statements made at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts of 6 July 2023 at which the 2021 financial statements of IFI were examined. Mr. Gorman was not present at that meeting and so had no opportunity to respond to any statements made. Therefore, I will read a summary of Mr. Gorman’s concerns into the record. However, it is important to note that this committee is not an adjudicative body and does not have the power to resolve conflicts in evidence presented to it. In his correspondence, Mr. Gorman states that he was "distressed and absolutely appalled by the inaccuracy of answers provided by IFI to several of the matters of concern raised by the members of the Committee". He also states that "a number of inaccuracies relating to me personally are particularly distressing and damaging to my reputation and it is these that I am writing to you to have redressed as a matter of priority". Mr. Gorman contests statements made at the meeting of 6 July that he, as chair of the IFI board, approved the CEO’s change of base from Citywest to Ballyshannon in November 2021. He states that he did not agree the change and had no authority to do so without bringing the matter to the board for its approval as the contract was between the CEO and the board of IFI. In his correspondence, he says:

I categorically state here that the first I heard of this change of base was when I viewed the proceedings at the PAC on July 6th. And for the further avoidance of doubt, nobody in IFI ever mentioned or discussed the change of base with me and no document relating to this matter was ever presented to me.

Mr. Gorman acknowledges that he did sign off on the CEO’s expenses after his base changed to Ballyshannon. He states that he was negligent in not checking the claims more thoroughly and not noticing the change of base and goes on to say that it was an inexcusable lack of vigilance on his part for which he takes full responsibility.

Does any member wish to address this item of correspondence? I will bring to committee members' attention that the Comptroller and Auditor General will be publishing a special report with regard to Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. We as a committee reserve the right to engage again with officials from that organisation but also to engage with Mr. Gorman at a point in our further examination of that special report when the Comptroller and Auditor General has it prepared. We can at that point engage with Mr. Gorman to give him an opportunity if he wishes to appear before the committee. I want to put that on the record because in fairness to him, he wrote to us very soon after. He was not present; he contests the evidence given and the statements made by some of the witnesses from IFI. As Chairman of the committee, I am happy to read those corrections into the record to provide proper balance here. Does any member wish to address that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

No. I am happy enough for that to be read into the record and to right it with regard to balance.

I am not at all surprised that the Comptroller and Auditor General is doing a special report into this. There were two or three things around that time. There was the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report on the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, the IFI and-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----the IHRB. All three of them were quite jaw-dropping. It will be useful for us to have an opportunity to come back on some of those. Within what kind of timeline is Mr. McCarthy expecting that report do be done so we know when to schedule a hearing?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am hoping it will be a relatively short timeline. The issues are fairly focused with regard to IFI. I signalled when I spoke about the 2021 financial statements that there were a number of issues that needed further investigation. Work has been going on with that. Obviously, in the last month or two, I have been dealing with the annual report and the appropriation accounts. However, it is the first item for attention once I get past the annual report. I do not have a precise timeline now. The audit for 2022 is ongoing and that may be completed earlier. I will try to bring the two of them together if at all possible.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it likely to be the far end of this year or into next year?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is likely to be towards the end of the year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

That is helpful to know. Is it agreed that we make the correspondent, Mr. Gorman, aware that his correspondence has been considered by the committee and that the matter is now on the parliamentary record? Agreed.

There are two more items of correspondence. No. 2120 C is from an individual, dated 21 August 2023, regarding the Córas Iompair Éireann, CIÉ, superannuation scheme. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. There is an issue regarding the pension scheme in CIÉ. While I know it is a semi-State body, I think it is in the public interest. Some members will have perhaps seen letters similar to this letter of correspondence from constituents. The letter states:

I am to advise on behalf of my retired colleagues in the CIÉ ... [pension] Scheme 1951 (Amendment Scheme 2000) that we are seeking that ... the chairperson of the CIÉ board of management would be invited to appear before the Public Accounts committee to answer as to why existing retired members of the Superannuation Scheme have not been granted a pension increase since 2008. It is our understanding at this juncture that the scheme is fully funded and has the capacity to absorb the appropriate pension increase for retired staff.

The correspondent goes on to highlight the cost of living. Obviously, it is a separate body, but I propose that we write to the chairperson of the board of CIÉ and highlight the fact that we are receiving correspondence. I do not know whether some members are receiving it at constituency level but I am certainly receiving it from people who are within this scheme and who have not had a pension increase in the last 15 years which, obviously, in the context of the cost-of-living crisis and everything else, is putting them under serious pressure. I suggest we ask the chairperson, Ms Fiona Ross, for her response with regard to what is happening, why people are not being granted a pay increase, whether there is a problem with the capacity of the fund - the correspondent does not seem to think there is - and whether their pension will be increased in the near future. It is a semi-State body. We do not want to get into the minutiae of this. It is the job of the management and their union to resolve these matters. This has been a recurring theme over the last three or four years, however, and it does not seem to be getting resolved. We might use our political representation to be able to do that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I always think legitimate expectation tends to be for the upper echelons. I have heard that on numerous occasions with regard to legitimate expectation. I would imagine there would be a degree of legitimate expectation and that there would be an increase if something is fully funded.

An Cathaoirleach

There are a few people and couples whose sole income is this pension and it has been 15 years without an increase. There is nobody else in the State in this situation. Social welfare has gone up; everything has gone up since then.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It might not be the only semi-State body but certainly if we deal with this one, it may well help us with another one.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. CIÉ does not come under our remit but I think we have a legitimate reason for writing to it and asking for it to account for this.

The last item we have to deal with today is No. 2122 C from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 21 August, related to our upcoming engagement with RTÉ. We have dealt with this. That will come in as part of our work programme. Is Deputy Murphy okay with that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is happy enough with that.

We will move on then to No. 4, which is the work programme. At our previous meeting on 13 July, we agreed the following engagements, and I will hold members' attention for a few minutes while we go through this. On 28 September, representatives from NAMA will appear before the committee with regard to financial statements 2022 and the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report, No. 116. That is on progress on achieving objectives as at the end of 2021. On 5 October, we will engage with the HSE with regard to financial statements. If there are specific matters members wish to raise at that meeting, as always, they might flag them up fairly soon because 5 October is quite close now. We will meet with RTÉ on 12 October. On 19 October, we will engage with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland. Specific areas of interest flagged are issues regarding the operating theatres in the new children's hospital, timelines for commencement and the commissioning period, the level of claims and potential liability, updated budget for the timeline for completion of the national children's hospital and the handover of the new children's hospital to Children's Health Ireland. That is the list at the moment. Are people happy enough with that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Again, if there is anything else that is not on it, members might flag the issues. We do not want to have a huge list of items. Let us try to keep a focus on the meeting, but if there is anything in particular, members might please flag it up with me or the secretariat.

With regard to 26 October, we have an opportunity. The Industrial Development Authority has been mentioned in the past. We discussed the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage earlier with regard to underperformance and underspend and all of that. There is also the pressing issue of Irish Water, however. While both are pressing matters, it would be timely to have that meeting. I suggest to the committee that we bring in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with representatives of Irish Water for that meeting on 26 October.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

And the commission with responsibility for energy.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Is that agreed? Agreed. Again, I ask members to keep the list short, but if there are specific issues around performance, spend and accountability in Irish Water, can they flag it up for the Department and Irish Water to address at that meeting on 26 October, which is roughly five weeks away?

That concludes our consideration of the work programme. If members do not wish to raise any other matters, we will go into private session.

The committee went into private session at 12.30 p.m. and adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28 September 2023.