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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 28 Sep 2023

Business of Committee

The business before us this afternoon is minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, our work programme and any other business.

The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 21 September 2023, which have been circulated to members. Does any member wish to raise any issues? Are the minutes agreed? I take that as agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

Moving to accounts and financial statements, four sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas between 18 and 22 September. I ask Mr. McCarthy to address these before I take remarks from the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The first set of financial statements relate to the Health Insurance Authority for 2022. That received a qualified audit opinion on the basis the accounts give a true and fair view except that they account for the costs of retirements benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. However, as I have pointed out before, that is standard for many of the health bodies. No. 2 is the risk equalisation fund, which is managed by the Health Insurance Authority. It is quite a sizable account with €812 million going through it. Again, for 2022 that received a clear audit opinion.

No. 3 is the Medical Bureau of Road Safety for 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

Finally, the National Oil Reserves Agency designated activity company received a clear audit opinion for 2022.

Okay, I thank Mr. McCarthy for that. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

We will move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page.

The first category under which Members have flagged items for discussion is correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings. The first two items relate to the same issue so I propose that we discuss them together. No. 2143B, from Mr. David Gunning, chief executive, National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, dated 19 September, provides information we requested regarding the operating theatres at the national children’s hospital. No. 2146B, from Ms Eilísh Hardiman, chief executive, Children’s Health Ireland, dated 19 September, provides information we requested regarding the operating theatres at the national children’s hospital. It is proposed to note and publish both items of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I flagged this item, as did Deputy Catherine Murphy who is unavoidably absent. We flagged it for today, but representatives from Children's Health Ireland are due to appear before the committee in a few weeks' time. I propose that we hold back Nos. 2143B and 2146B until that meeting. I will take that as being accepted. We will deal with them on that day when we have the hospital development board and Children’s Health Ireland before us.

Item 2148, from Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, Director General of RTÉ, provides information requested by the committee arising from the meeting on 13 July 2023. Members will be aware that we received a large dossier of documents from RTÉ and we will be meeting with its representatives again on 12 October. I propose we note and publish the correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. If any members wish to comment on it they should please feel free. There were a number of pieces of correspondence we did not get, in particular, the employment contract for the former director general, Ms Dee Forbes. We did not get the exit packages for Ms Breda O'Keeffe, former chief financial officer, or Ms Geraldine O'Leary, former head of commercial activity at RTÉ. I propose that we get the opinion of our legal advisers in the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, OPLA, regarding these matters and then we can decide how to progress with this. We need to look for these documents or at the very least get further information regarding what exit packages exist in RTÉ, and the terms of the contract of employment for directors general. I propose that we seek legal advice on that and see what powers we have in terms of compellability and how best to handle this. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will seek to bring the OPLA before the committee to advise us on this matter.

We will move on to the work programme. Members were circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which is displayed on their screens. Next week, we will engage with the HSE with regard to financial statements. I propose that we add the dental treatment purchase fund and the leasing of ambulances to the agenda as areas of interest. Is that agreed? Agreed. On the dental treatment purchase fund, the secretariat might note that we had a particular focus on budget and outcomes. We are seeking information from it in that regard.

On 12 October, we will meet again with representatives from RTÉ to resume examination of the following: matters relating to the appropriation of public moneys to RTÉ and the expenditure by RTÉ of such moneys; and commercial arrangements entered into by RTÉ and its presenters, including those underwritten by RTÉ, which have impacted on and relate to expenditure. Deputy Catherine Murphy also suggested that we have the Secretary General of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in on the same day. I take that as being accepted.

On 19 October, we will engage with Children’s Health Ireland with regard to its 2021 financial statements and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board with regard to its latest financial statements. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to give us an update on the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board’s 2021 financial statements.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I actually signed the audit certificate last week. The 2021 statements should be ready to go. Obviously, given the short time, maybe the committee could reach out to the Department of Health, which would be responsible for laying them. That would possibly be an avenue to ensuring the committee has at least the 2021 financial statements as well.

When was Mr. McCarthy's office finished with them?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I signed them on 22 September.

They have not been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas yet.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. Obviously, it is very tight. In one week, it would be very unusual that accounts would be presented that fast. However, at least it has them and if it was able to manage to get them in, that would be helpful to the committee.

It would be appropriate for us to perhaps send a memo to the Department asking it to do that in view of the fact that the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board is appearing before the committee on 19 October.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

We might write to the Secretary General, Mr. Robert Watt, asking for that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Obviously, the audits in both cases for 2022 for the Children's Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board are under way at the minute and well progressed.

On 26 October, we will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with regard to the Department’s 2022 appropriation account. The delivery of social housing by local authorities and the funding and governance of Uisce Éireann have been flagged as specific areas of interest. Representatives of Uisce Éireann and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities have been requested to attend with the Department. As usual, I remind members to flag areas of interest for the upcoming meeting.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's Annual Report on the Accounts of Public Service 2022 is due to be laid this week. We will consider this report at next week’s meeting with a view to agreeing engagements for November and December. If any members wish to put in anything with regard to specific items for the day we have the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Uisce Éireann in, they can submit them to the clerk to the committee as normal. The Comptroller and Auditor General's Annual Report on the Accounts of Public Service 2022 will be released in the next couple of days. Unless members have any other comments, that concludes our consideration of the work programme for today.

Unless any members wish to raise matters under any other business, we will now move into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 October, when we will engage with the HSE.

The committee went into private session at 1.49 p.m. and adjourned at 2.04 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 October 2023.
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