COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2023

Appropriation and Expenditure of Public Moneys by RTÉ (Resumed): Discussion

Ms Katherine Licken (Secretary General, Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the witnesses. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that the witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise to engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Furthermore, it is not the role of this committee to make findings of fact about a person who is not a member of the Oireachtas that could impinge their good name or reputation. I ask committee members to be mindful of this in their examination of the issues, and in their questions this morning.

We are joined from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General by Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit. Ms Drinan is deputising for the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee but who is unavoidably absent. This morning, we will once more engage with Raidió Teilifís Éireann and officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to examine the following: matters relating to the appropriation of public moneys to RTÉ and the expenditure by RTÉ of such public moneys; and the commercial arrangements entered into by RTÉ and its presenters, including those underwritten by RTÉ that have impacted on and relate to the expenditure of public moneys. The committee intends to seek clarification on relevant matters including but not limited to: matters arising from the meetings with RTÉ on 29 June 2023 and 13 July 2023; matters arising from documentation received from RTÉ; and matters arising from the committee's meeting with Mr. Ryan Tubridy and Mr. Noel Kelly on 11 July 2023.

We are joined from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media by Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General; Ms Triona Quill, assistant secretary; and Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer; and from RTÉ by Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, director general; Mr. Adrian Lynch, director of audience, channels and marketing; Mr. Conor Mullen, head of strategy and commercial compliance; Ms Eimear Cusack, director of human resources; Mr. Mike Fives, group financial controller; and Ms Paula Mullooly, director of legal affairs.

Before we move to the opening statements, I note that several other individuals were invited to attend today's meeting but either declined or are unable to attend. The committee has received responses from Ms Breda O'Keeffe, the former chief financial officer, and Ms Geraldine O'Leary, the former director of commercial, declining the committee's invitation to attend today's meeting. Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chair of the board of RTÉ, and Ms Anne O’Leary, a member of the board, have informed us that they are out of the country at the moment and are unable to attend. The committee has also been informed by Ms Dee Forbes that she is unable to attend today's meeting.

I call the RTÉ director general, Mr. Bakhurst, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today. It has been a number of weeks since we last met and a lot has happened in that time. I hope the significant number of documents that we have provided to the committee have been helpful.

Recent events have marked a turning point in RTÉ with regard to our standards of governance. We have seen how easily trust can be shaken and we understand the urgency of the job to restore that trust. Since I took office in mid-July, both I and the new leadership team, working with staff across the organisation, have been working to do all we can to expedite the urgent reforms required to restore confidence in RTÉ.

I am pleased to share with the committee some of the reforms that are already in hand. We are working at pace to deliver RTÉ's strategic framework plan to Government by the end of the month. That outline plan will form the basis for consultation with the public, public representatives and staff. It will set out the stall for a better RTÉ, one that is better for audiences and better for Ireland. As we move towards delivery of that outline strategy, the committee should know that the focus on immediate and long-lasting reform remains sharp. As the committee knows, I have appointed the new interim leadership team. Key decisions now come to that full leadership team, not least decisions regarding top presenter contracts. We are now operating with full transparency with the board and we are in the late stages of consultation on the new register of interests and register of external activities, both of which will be key to maintaining perceptions of integrity and impartiality. We have completed one staff survey and have just launched another seeking views and suggestions as to how we can improve our overall governance standards.

We are managing our finances carefully and working to cut costs in the face of declining revenue from the TV licence. Recent initiatives, such as the freeze on recruitment of staff and stopping discretionary spending, alongside deferring some investment in digital and capital projects, have saved several million euro. RTÉ's commercial performance has been good. While cash reserves are solid for the short term, clearly, long-lasting reform of the broken funding system is urgently needed.

RTÉ is fully committed to the many reviews in place. As supplied to the committee, the two Grant Thornton reports regarding the misstatement of earnings to Ryan Tubridy are now concluded. A further two investigations into Toy Show The Musical and the voluntary exit schemes conducted by RTÉ in 2019 and 2021 are nearing completion, and it is hoped to conclude these reports by the end of this month. It is also hoped that the Mazars inquiry into the usage of the barter account within RTÉ and other related matters will be finished by early November. Finally, the work of the other two Government-appointed expert advisory committees on governance and culture and on HR and contractors have commenced, and I have instructed all divisions that their work is to be given full and swift co-operation.

The committee will also have noted that Richard Collins has resigned as chief financial officer, CFO. Due to various legal restrictions, I am not in a position to comment further on that matter but I can assure the committee that I will be moving to advertise for the role of CFO as soon as possible. This will be a priority appointment for the permanent leadership team, alongside the appointment of a new commercial director.

We are grateful that it has been confirmed that RTÉ will receive €16 million from budget 2424. This follows on from the recommendation made by the Future of Media Commission that interim funding would be required pending a proper reform of the licence fee, and we extend thanks to the various Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas who have publicly supported the importance of public service media being properly supported and funded. It is critical that the funding of public service media in Ireland is put on a more stable footing. This not only affects RTÉ but also the independent sector, which RTÉ plays a very important role in sustaining and showcasing.

I commend staff across RTÉ on continuing to deliver high-quality programmes and content to very large audiences, including news coverage, investigative journalism, live sport, such as the Rugby World Cup, the record numbers using RTÉ Player and the highly successful new season of “The Late Late Show” with Patrick Kielty. I am determined that RTÉ will be transformed so the public, the Government and our partners can have full confidence in RTÉ and its management. We understand that in order to achieve that, we need to share a compelling and credible plan as to how the organisation must and will change.

As I said, I confirm that RTÉ hopes to provide an outline framework for strategic reform around the end of this month, with a commitment to delivering a more detailed and costed statement of strategy by early next year. A strategic change of this scale requires considerable levels of financial modelling and deliberation. Among the elements being explored is the sale of more of the campus, which is an issue several members expressed an interest in. We are awaiting more up-to-date valuations but early indications are that a complete sale of the Donnybrook campus is unlikely and the repurposing of the current site will not be without challenges and significant cost.

We must rebuild an RTÉ that is trusted and enjoyed, one that is relevant and loved, and one that brings the country together for important national moments and events. Public service content, value for money and trust will be at the heart of a transformed RTÉ. My team and I are committed to the work that is required to deliver that.

Ms Katherine Licken

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le comhaltaí an choiste as an deis a thabhairt dom an ráiteas seo a dhéanamh inniu. I thank members for the invitation to this meeting and for the opportunity to make this opening statement.

The Department previously attended a meeting of this committee on 29 June that considered the serious governance issues arising in RTÉ. Shortly after that meeting on 4 July, with the agreement of Government colleagues, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, commissioned an independent examination of RTÉ. This examination includes two separate and parallel reviews of governance and culture and of contractor fees, human resources and other matters, as well as an investigation by a forensic accountant, namely, Mazars.

The review of governance and culture is being overseen by a three-person expert advisory committee chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan. Its purpose is to assess whether RTÉ’s governance framework and organisational culture is fit for purpose and is in line with best practice. Similarly, the review of contractor fees, HR and other matters is overseen by a three-person expert advisory committee chaired by Brendan McGinty. This review is examining the oversight and mechanisms by which RTÉ engages presenters and contractors, issues arising from the use of short-term employment contract at all levels and employment terms and conditions. The expert advisory committees are being assisted by a consultancy firm procured by the Department, namely, Crowe Advisory Ireland, and a secretariat composed of officials from the Department. I understand that both expert advisory committees have been making good progress and that RTÉ has been co-operating with information requests made to date. The board of RTÉ has established two sub-committees of the board to facilitate the work of the expert advisory committees.

Following a procurement competition, on the 12 July the Minister invoked her powers under section 109(7)(a) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to appoint a forensic accountant, Mazars, to undertake an examination of the barter and any other off-balance sheet accounts in RTÉ. The terms of reference of the examination specifically require the identification and examination of all transactions made through the RTÉ barter account during the period 2017 to 2022. An interim report from Mazars was shared with this committee and was published by the Minister on the 25 August. This report set out a factual overview of the accounting practices, financial processes and related records in respect of RTÉ’s management of the barter account. The report identified a number of practices and procedures regarding the governance and management of the barter account that were wholly inadequate for a public body.

A second Mazars report is expected to be submitted to the Minister at the end of the November. This report will take account of the detailed examination of all transactions made through the barter account for the period 2017 to 2022 and will also identify and set out the purpose and governance of any other off-balance sheet accounts held by RTÉ.

Last week, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, announced, on foot of a request from the expert advisory committee on governance and culture, that the terms of reference of Mazars' review would be expanded to include an examination of the origins of the barter account and the role of the then executive board and RTÉ’s board in the governance of the barter account. It will also examine the roles of the internal audit function, the audit and risk committee of the RTÉ board and RTÉ’s external auditor as regards the barter account.

The third Mazars report covering these matters will inform the deliberations of the expert advisory committee on governance and culture and will be published alongside the report of that committee early next year.

The independent reviews commissioned by the Minister are intended to provide an external assessment and set of recommendations that will address the serious issues that have arisen in RTÉ. In so doing, they will be critical to restoring public faith and trust in RTÉ, alongside the measures being undertaken by RTÉ as we speak.

As the Minister stated last week, public service broadcasting is too important for our society not to take this opportunity to ensure that it is fit for purpose. I thank members again for the time given to me to make this statement. I am happy to answer any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

Before we move on to committee questions, we acknowledge we received a lot of documentation from Mr. Bakhurst. Some changes are taking place and that is welcome. One important piece of documentation we have not received is the note from the meeting of 7 May 2020. We received a response on that. The first response we got verbally from Ms Paula Mullooly at a previous meeting was that it was legally privileged. I note that has changed since; it comes under client confidentially, in other words, legal advice from a solicitor. The committee feels this is important, particularly in the absence of Ms Dee Forbes’s attendance, because she was at that meeting with Noel Kelly, another person from NK Management and an RTÉ solicitor. In the absence of Dee Forbes, Mr. Kelly gave his version of what happened at that meeting. That was referred to and I have it here in an email from 19 April to RTÉ, with a short reply from RTÉ saying “Thanks very much”. In that, he confirmed that at the meeting, Dee Forbes, on behalf of RTÉ in consideration of the new agreement, said RTÉ guarantees its payments required to be made by Renault under the tripartite agreement and indemnifies Tuttle Productions - that is Ryan Tubridy’s company - in relation to these payments for the duration of the contract. That is simply what we got.

The answers we are getting on this are not satisfactory. We discussed this and the committee is not happy with it. There is obviously more to it than that. Mr. Bakhurst has been open with all of the documentation we have received so far. We are puzzled about this one. I mentioned to Ms Mullooly - as did another member - at a previous meeting that where RTÉ is claiming legal privilege, RTÉ executives have the right to waive that legal privilege. However, we now know it was not legal privilege rather it is client confidentiality. In other words, a solicitor - in this case, an in-house solicitor – was giving advice to a client, staff of RTÉ. However, that cannot be; client confidentiality does not exist here because there were two other people at that meeting who were with RTÉ. We know that now. I ask Mr. Bakhurst to respond to that.

In any case, even if Mr. Bakhurst still claims client confidentiality in regard to legal advice - that is what the notes are about - RTÉ has the right to waive it. Mr. Bakhurst said that recent events marked a turning point and he is operating with full transparency to the board, which I welcome and have raised with him a number of times, as have members. However, we are talking about restoring public confidence. That is the meeting where the deal for the extra €225,000 for the second three-year period was nailed down, if you like. We do not have the notes on that meeting. I ask Mr. Bakhurst to respond to that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I heard the Chair raise that this morning as well. First, this has been carefully considered and the Chair will appreciate that RTÉ has taken external legal advice on this over the course of the summer and I have discussed this with Paula Mullooly, who is here. We do want to provide maximum transparency. As seen from the hundreds of documents we provided, we provided the committee with almost everything, bar a couple of documents. This is an important issue, so we have discussed it over the summer.

First, we would also like to hear from Dee Forbes and look forward to her appearing in this committee. If she does not appear here, perhaps she could answer a question in writing to the committee – that is what I suggest. Second, on this document specifically, there is an important issue at play. I am not trying to hide behind legal advice but the Chair will appreciate that as a responsible organisation, if we have taken legal advice about what we can, cannot and should disclose, it would be remiss of us to act against that.

I refer to the principle on this.

I have considered it because, as the committee knows I have said, and I mean it, that I want to provide maximum transparency, except where there are legal constraints. For any organisation in this country to function successfully, it has to be able to take confidential legal advice and have client confidentiality with the legal advice given from a solicitor within the organisation. I know this myself from my previous background at RTÉ when I worked in news and current affairs. We took legal advice on many issues, in particular high-profile investigations when there were other people in the room, not just RTÉ people. My understanding was that did not change the procedure.

RTÉ has always had a position whereby legal advice needs to remain within the organisation and confidential across the piece. It would set a unique precedent if we moved away from that. It is a an important principle for us. I totally understand why the committee is looking for that information. I hope the significant timetable we spent time over the summer setting out for the committee helps to improve understanding, along with the hundreds of extra emails included in that which we provided to the committee. From my point of view, I am afraid this is a really important principle for RTÉ. We have taken our legal advice.

An Cathaoirleach

In terms of the legal question, confidentiality only binds the solicitor. The client is in a position to waive that. We have established that about legal privilege. You are saying it is legal advice and that it is covered under client confidentiality. The client is in a position to waive that client confidentiality. There are conflicting versions of what went on. RTÉ claimed that there was no prior agreement regarding the underwriting of the tripartite agreement at board level or among the executives and that Ms Forbes essentially went on a solo run in agreeing to underwrite the tripartite agreement. However, Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly furnished emails to this committee which demonstrate that there was prior agreement in RTÉ to underwrite the tripartite agreement on 28 February and that this underwriting was discussed internally.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Chair, I feel the-----

An Cathaoirleach

The only conclusion we can come to is that there is more in that note than legal advice. It is a record of the meeting.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not a question for me of what is in that legal note. The documents we furnished to the committee give a very clear narrative as to what led to the single meeting where a decision was taken. I come back to the principle that, as an organisation, for me it is extremely important that the advice we get from our solicitors internally remains confidential. I am sorry. That is an important principle for me.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Just to inform you, we have taken legal advice on it as well.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The committee members have taken legal advice and we are of the mind that we will be moving to compel that document-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. Okay. I will stand ready for that. We would appreciate seeing your legal advice as well.

An Cathaoirleach

-----as well as all of other information that was provided.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I welcome everybody back after the summer recess. It is the first time the witnesses have been back before the committee. As an opening remark, I am here as an elected representative to represent the public and how public moneys are spent. In that regard, the questions I will ask will require "Yes" or "No" answers or very concise answers. I ask the witnesses to bear in mind that I have 15 minutes on the clock and that they respect that and we co-operate with one another.

Yesterday, we got the news that Mr. Richard Collins has resigned. I wish him well. I had a question, but Mr. Bakhurst confirmed it. Mr. Collins did resign.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

In that case, there would not have been any voluntary package, severance or anything being paid to Mr. Collins. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think we have said legally I am not in a position to give details about individuals. I am sorry about that, but I am not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

At the same time, the question is that if it was a resignation there would not be any form of gratuity or voluntary package. It is a resignation. Is that not normal?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As I said, I am afraid I am not in a position to give details on this.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. I am not asking Mr. Bakhurst for details. Will Mr. Collins be receiving moneys from RTÉ other than his salary?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not in a position to give details. I am sorry, Deputy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think the public will probably draw their own conclusion and-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, I am afraid there is a reality here.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is a reality in running big organisations, in particular when you are trying to reshape the senior management, on how people leave the organisation. People will be aware-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I asked Mr. Bakhurst not to run down the clock. The reality is-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry, Deputy. I am trying to-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Stop the clock, please.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, if you are asking-----

An Cathaoirleach

Allow Mr. Bakhurst to make a brief answer.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I also need to be given the opportunity to answer the Deputy's questions. I am trying to answer them as fully as I can. That means that often the answer is not "Yes" or "No".

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well it does in this case. I asked whether Mr. Collins will receive moneys other than his salary. It is a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have said to the Deputy I am unable to answer that question. I was trying to explain to her and the people who are watching why, but if I am not given the time to do so that is fine.

Deputy Verona Murphy

RTÉ is coming to the Government cap in hand, looking for interim funding. I am here as an elected representative - I have already stated this - in order to ascertain whether RTÉ is mending its hand as to what we have seen for the past four months. That is why the question is relevant. It is not personal, even to Mr. Collins. Rather, it is about how RTÉ will spend the money it will receive.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Okay. I accept it is a perfectly legitimate question. I was trying to explain why I cannot answer it and it is personal to Mr. Collins which is the reason I cannot answer it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The public can draw their own conclusion, Chair. Mr. Bakhurst will have heard in the budget that RTÉ is getting €16 million. When he appeared before the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media last month, he said a sum of €34.5 million in interim funding would be required. How much cash does RTÉ have on reserve?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It varies from month to month. We have enough cash, given that settlement, to see us through-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Mr. Bakhurst have a figure?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, I do. Mr. Mike Fives knows the figure.

Mr. Mike Fives

We had €68 million at the end of August.

Deputy Verona Murphy

A sum of €68 million at the end of August. How long does RTÉ expect that money to last?

Mr. Mike Fives

Into 2024.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Into when, though?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It depends on the success of our cutting costs and so on as to how long we can maintain our cash position.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. Can Mr. Fives tell the committee what capital is required monthly to run RTÉ?

Mr. Mike Fives

We spent €339 million in 2022 and the figure will be around €350 million this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If we break that down monthly-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is just under €30 million.

Mr. Mike Fives

We spend different amounts at different times of the year. It is very cyclical.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The expenses vary over income.

Mr. Mike Fives

Exactly, each month.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. At the outset, RTÉ has done an analysis of how long that money should last if it does not get any more money.

Mr. Mike Fives

Exactly. We have done a number of flex analyses, depending on how spending, commercial revenue and the licence fee goes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Are there monthly losses? Are there months where losses are recorded over-----

Mr. Mike Fives

Absolutely, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Would they be more frequent than profit?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes. Media is quite cyclical. We make a lot of money towards the end of the year when we have big audiences. In general, to give an example, July and August, in commercial revenue terms, equal September. September, October, November and December are when we make most of our money.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has RTÉ recorded losses up to September?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes we have.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much?

Mr. Mike Fives

I do not have that figure to hand.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That really is not a satisfactory answer. This is the Committee of Public Accounts. Does Mr. Bakhurst know the current loss figure to September 2023? It does not have to be to the euro.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can provide it. It is moving all the time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

A rough figure, within a million.

Mr. Mike Fives

I would have to get that for the Deputy afterwards.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Mr. Fives can give an estimate.

Mr. Mike Fives

We would be looking at the €10 million to €12 million range.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The €10 million to €12 million range. Is it correct to say from reports that the overdraft facility or borrowing capacity is €100 million?

Mr. Mike Fives

That is correct, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much of that has RTÉ used?

Mr. Mike Fives

Just under €65 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So €65 million. If we add the €12 million to the €65 million, it becomes €77 million. That means that if RTÉ does not make huge profits by the end of the year-----

Mr. Mike Fives

We have cash reserves to cover the losses so far, and that is accounted for in the €68 million we have on reserve.

Deputy Verona Murphy

RTÉ does not have that. It has €68 million, and if we add the €12 million Mr. Fives is talking about in terms of borrowing-----

Mr. Mike Fives

That is in terms of cash reserves. We do not borrow for the losses because we use them out of the working capital and cash we have on hand.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We could go into it whether or not the €65 million that RTÉ has borrowed can be covered, but what I am trying to ascertain is whether have a deficit paying the licence fee since this whole debacle started. The usual annual recorded figure for evasion or non-payment of the licence fee is €65 million. Is that not correct?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes,13% of people do not pay the television licence.

Deputy Verona Murphy

According to the reports and the accounts, it is €65 million annually. I want to know if the €21 million that has been recorded since this started has to be added to that or is part of that.

Mr. Mike Fives

It is added to that. It is €21 million between when the payments controversy began and the end of the year. It is not year to date.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not year to date. So now it is really non-payment that equates to €86 million annually.

Mr. Mike Fives

If you were to add the two together, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is going to grow. I heard Mr. Bakhurst say that he does not believe that RTÉ is insolvent.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does he believe it will be insolvent this time next year?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not if we get the-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well, if this trend continues.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not if we get the funding that has been suggested and if we make significant cuts to our spending.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When is the cut-off point for receiving that funding? When is the deadline?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have done various scenarios. We need it by early spring next year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Early spring next year.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

But I understand the timetable is earlier than that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If you do not get it, do you believe RTÉ will be insolvent?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, and I have made that point.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Pardon?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have made the point that we are managing our cash as carefully as we can because we have a responsibility to do that, for that reason.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did you say "Yes", that you do believe if you do not get the funding-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If we do not get this cash, we will run out of cash. That is for sure.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. That is worrying. It is needed by spring next year.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is worrying.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is, yes. I am going to move on. You discussed documents with the Chair earlier. I have one more question that really requires binary and concise answers. The issue of the €150,000 was discussed at this committee with Mr. Tubridy. Has RTÉ received that money back?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. Does RTÉ intend to recoup that money?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We do not have any legal basis to recoup it. I think I have said that previously. I have said publicly that I think there is a moral imperative rather than a legal one on that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, there is a moral imperative. That is what brings me to the initial discussion. You believe that Ryan Tubridy has a moral imperative to return the €150,000. We requested extensive documentation, and I do not discount that. There were hundreds pages in the request. Of the 61 documents that were requested, 24 pieces were partially responded to. As the Chair mentioned earlier, legal privilege was claimed over some of them. You are standing by the fact that RTÉ received legal advice which really has nothing to do with the fact that the documents were not supplied. There is no legal privilege over the documentation, as far as the committee is concerned. We have heard about the spending in RTÉ for the last four months, and it definitely raises issues around the moral compass as far as the public are concerned. Do you believe there is a moral imperative to provide those documents to the committee in order for us to ascertain and make recommendations so that we can retain the public broadcaster?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I believe I have a moral imperative to do the right thing. I have considered it carefully and I think our position is the right decision. I am afraid that my moral imperative is sometimes not to do what is being demanded by some politicians; it is to take the right decision to maintain the integrity and independence of RTÉ, and that is what I will do.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think that is kind of contradictory.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not contradictory.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Let me tell you what you said. It is taken from a report that was published after you appeared in front of the media committee. You said: "We will continue to explore how we can cut costs and maximise funding of our public services through commercial revenue, whilst also working hard to restore trust in RTÉ." I put it to you that there cannot be any restoration of trust where you are asserting a privilege that the man on the street knows does not exist. It is not relevant to what you are asserting.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

With respect, Deputy-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

If I could finish.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I could answer.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If I could just finish. It indicates, and the perception is, that you have something to hide and something is awry. The very statement that you made referenced restoring trust in RTÉ. There is nothing I would like more than that, but your actions do not reflect your words. That is understood and the public's perception is that you have something to hide. Is it not-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Respectfully,-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it not better to waive privilege and give confidence to the words that you utter day in, day out - not just here but in the media, and I am reading them every day - by releasing the documents? Your moral compass or obligation to the public would be fulfilled in releasing those documents. We can compel RTÉ to provide them.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Respectfully, Deputy, we have released thousands of documents. We have been co-operating in every way that is possible with this committee and with other inquiries into RTÉ, but there comes a moment where my responsibility is to the integrity and the editorial integrity of the organisation. I have tried to explain this. We are not hiding anything, but it is important for long-term confidence in RTÉ that we are seen to be independent. Part of that is that we can take confidential legal advice internally on key issues. I apologise if that is the Deputy's interpretation of it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

You do not need to apologise. I think when you look back at this committee, even you will find that those words are really empty and meaningless. I think everybody else understands that. It is just-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not know how you know what everyone else thinks, Deputy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well, the public-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

My words are not meaningless and empty. I am doing my utmost to maintain and rebuild trust in the organisation, but some decisions are-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The thing is, Mr. Bakhurst, you are making a choice. It seems to be one rule for RTÉ and another for Ryan Tubridy. I do not disagree with your pronouncement that he has a moral obligation. I just do not understand how that same moral obligation does not pertain to RTÉ.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

My moral obligation is about-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not finished-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----the integrity of RTÉ. It is not about giving in to every demand when they are not, in my view, right for the integrity of the organisation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yet you come in, telling the Government and this committee that if you do not receive interim funding to the tune of €34.5 million, and receive it by next spring, RTÉ will be insolvent. I think the reality is that that is primarily your doing.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

My doing?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Your doing.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Why is it my doing?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Because every public representative believes that it is imperative that as elected representatives they ensure that the moneys are spent properly. RTÉ is hiding documentation. I am not sure who it is that you are trying to protect or what it is that you are trying to protect, but we need the documentation. We are going to compel RTÉ to provide it. All you are actually doing is delaying the committee from carrying out its functions and also bestowing an obligation on, and taking the moral high ground over, Ryan Tubridy by saying he has a moral obligation. It is not the case. I am afraid you cannot really pick and choose, Mr. Bakhurst. I think the public will decipher that for themselves. The same will happen when it comes to seeing the voluntary exit packages.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I could just answer that point.

An Cathaoirleach

I will let Mr. Bakhurst respond before I bring in Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Verona Murphy

There is no response.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is a response, because you made a sweeping final statement, Deputy. I am driven by trying to restore trust in RTÉ and make the right decisions for the organisation. We are delivering maximum transparency where we are able to do so without compromising the independence and integrity of the organisation. I am perfectly happy for the court of public opinion to look at the thousands of documents that we have put into the public domain.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Bakhurst, Ryan Tubridy waived privilege over that said meeting. We heard contrary evidence in relation to-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ryan Tubridy did not-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----the voluntary exit-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, Ryan Tubridy did not have legal-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Sorry, Mr. Bakhurst. The voluntary exit package information is required. I understand there is an investigation ongoing, but that information should be before this committee. It is public moneys, no matter how you wish to see it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That report will be brought to this committee. That is why I have commissioned it. I want transparency around that process.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We said at the initial stages of these hearings that truth matters.

Again, we have always respectfully sought the co-operation of the executives within RTÉ. However, I am concerned after hearing RTÉ's stance today on the release of these important documents. We appreciate everything that has come into the committee but we had concerns about the delay in the publication of documents and also concerns when hundreds of documents were delivered 24 hours before a meeting. To echo what Deputy Verona Murphy and the Chair said, we will compel the production of this document. Currently, the reputation of RTÉ is on the ground and we want to restore public confidence in the organisation. The work of the Oireachtas is central to doing that. We want to support RTÉ. We believe in public service broadcasting, which is rightly so for our democracy and everything that goes with it. It is very important that we establish the facts today, subsequent to further meetings.

In regard to the resignation of the former CFO, Richard Collins, who has been very honourable to this committee, and has come before it, not like others, did RTÉ seek his resignation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot talk about it as there are legal restrictions. I am not trying to be evasive but the Deputy will appreciate that when these kind of events happen and people leave organisations there is a-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

We heard previously revelations about a former CFO and her exit and voluntary package, which certainly gave us grave concern over executive management responsibility in approving such a deal. These are straightforward questions that the public watching today want answers to. Again, did RTÉ seek the resignation of Richard Collins?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not fair on Mr. Collins to give the detail of the discussions with him.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Was an exit package agreed with Mr. Collins?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not able to give the details on individuals. Because I want to be able to give maximum transparency, committee members will be aware that we asked for independent external legal advice from Arthur Cox about what we could and could not say about individuals. Committee members will have seen the letter and the comprehensive advice to us about what we can say about individuals. Hopefully, that letter is in the public domain so that others can see it as well. I think that answers the point. It would be remiss of me to go against very clear legal advice.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Could I ask Mr. Bakhurst about the report commissioned for the external review on the voluntary exit package? When can we expect the publication of that report?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

McCann Fitzgerald is carrying out that report. I asked for it by the end of September. They came back to me a couple of weeks before that and said that they had more paperwork to go through than they had expected and they also had some interviews with individuals to carry out and they asked for an extension of several weeks to do that. I said that was disappointing but I wanted the report to be comprehensive and properly done. I am expecting it by the end of October.

Deputy Alan Dillon

By the end of October.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, that is what they said to me.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Without pre-empting the report, has Mr. Bakhurst had any visibility in regard to the facts that have been established?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, I do not think that would be appropriate. It is an independent report.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will move on to the current financial situation within RTÉ. How much borrowing does RTÉ have on its books at present?

Mr. Mike Fives

It is €65 million.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the statutory limit?

Mr. Mike Fives

It is €100 million.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Given the current financial situation whereby RTÉ has €68 million in cash reserves, has Mr. Fives established that this will run out in early 2024?

Mr. Mike Fives

It is likely to be mid-2024.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How does Mr. Bakhurst intend to find the €21 million over the next eight months to make up for the licence shortfall?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have already started work. We are looking at the options of how we will try to close that gap. There are going to be some tough decisions about that. We will have to stop investment on some significant projects, digital and other projects, and stop some capital investment. We will have to keep a careful lid on the amount of recruitment we can do. We will also have to keep a careful lid on discretionary spend. There will inevitably cuts to some content areas.

One of the things that concerns me is our ability to carry on investing in independent productions because that is one of the few tools we have at our disposal, among other things. That is an area I do not want to cut back. I will try to manage that as carefully as possible because that is really important to the whole of the creative sector in Ireland.

Deputy Alan Dillon

When will Mr. Bakhurst deliver the strategic vision?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The objective is the end of this month or the start of November. We are just waiting for some more facts, particularly around land valuations. The final strategic vision has to go through the board and then we will publish it.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will that provide options to the Government in regard to funding?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are not looking at the funding, what we are looking at it is the future direction and strategic vision for RTÉ, and putting a clear financial framework around that but we are not looking to provide options. The Minister has made it clear that she is not expecting options; she is expecting us to give a clear vision.

Deputy Alan Dillon

But she is also expecting that RTÉ will have genuine cost-saving measures and cost efficiencies.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, and the objective of this is that we drive costs out from within RTÉ. We make it a leaner and more effective organisation. Therefore, we can spend more on the independent sector and on the content we are delivering to audiences, but at the heart of it is that we drive out costs from within the organisation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Could I ask the Secretary General of the Department how concerned she is in regard to the financial situation facing RTÉ?

Ms Katherine Licken

Naturally we are very concerned about the financial situation facing RTÉ. There has been a dramatic decline in licence fee income since this whole issue emerged. Having said that, there was a decline in licence fee income even before this matter emerged, and that is why the Minister set up the Future of Media Commission to look at the future of media generally but also particularly public service broadcasting. It made 50 recommendations in that regard. We are very concerned and that is why we asked NewERA to look at the financial situation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How closely does the Department work with RTÉ on financial management and budgetary management?

Ms Katherine Licken

We work very closely with RTÉ but we do not look at individual transactions. That is not our role. NewERA is formally assigned to the Department as an adviser to it on RTÉ's finances but it has been working with us for several years. We meet RTÉ regularly. We look at its cashflows and its profit and loss account. NewERA does an analysis of that. NewERA did an analysis last year, for example, on the interim funding request and did it again.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Ms Licken has listened to Mr. Bakhurst speak on the strategic vision. What does she want to see in it?

Ms Katherine Licken

The Minister has made it clear that she is not going to dictate what she wants to see in the strategic vision.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Ms Licken is the Accounting Officer. Ultimately, it will be her decision along with the Minister on the Revised Estimates.

Ms Katherine Licken

The Estimates will be the Minister's decision. As much as I would like it to be my decision, it is the Minister's decision.

Deputy Alan Dillon

But Ms Licken will sign off on the financial accounts in regard to this. What does she want to see within the strategic vision to give her and the Minister confidence?

Ms Katherine Licken

We cannot dictate to RTÉ. RTÉ's independence is really important. Not only is it set out in statute, but it is really important even at a European level. The European Commission regards-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

But RTÉ is coming to Ms Licken, cap in hand, in regard to a bailout.

Ms Katherine Licken

We expect RTÉ to show cost savings and we expect it to follow those cost savings if additional funding is required, but we will not dictate what the cost savings will be. The Minister has made it clear that she will not dictate either what the strategy will be. It is up to RTÉ to come up with a strategy, show the cost savings and, critically, also show the governance reform that is needed. RTÉ has done a lot to date on governance reform. They are all the elements that we want to see in order to be able to stand over the strategic review. We will advise the Minister in conjunction with NewERA on any recommendation in regard to additional funding.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What percentage of the annual financial budget goes on salary and wages?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The costs are 51%.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is Mr. Bakhurst staring down the barrel of compulsory redundancies if he is really looking for cost-saving measures?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, we are not. I think I have made it clear. I was asked about this at a staff meeting yesterday and I said we are not looking at compulsory redundancies. Even if we wanted to go down that route, which I do not, we would need political sign-off from the Department. I think the Taoiseach and the Minister have both made it clear that there is no appetite for that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank the witnesses for being here. Many people might be asking if we are going over old ground and if we do not know this already. I have said previously that the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media has a separate remit and function to us. We have a specific remit from the Dáil to draft a report, document what happened and make recommendations on procedures.

It is procedures that I want to focus on because either of two things happened. Either procedures were absent or they were overridden. Going forward with the operation of RTÉ, it is important that this is documented and recommendations are made, and that RTÉ responds to that. That is why the note of May 2020 is so crucial. RTÉ is relying on a defence that Dee Forbes alone was the person who knew all of the pieces of the picture. The evidence that RTÉ has given before the committee is that: the CFO knew of the tripartite agreement but not of the details; Ms O'Leary knew of the credit note but not that this formed part of salary negotiations; and Ms Mullooly said she did not know of the indemnity issue until 2021. The evidence reflects the argument that only one person knew all of these details and without that person coming here, it is quite difficult for us to put a report together. The note of that meeting should support RTÉ's argument that Dee Forbes was the only person who knew, or it would prove otherwise. The absence of that note is important from our perspective because it backs up RTÉ's case or it does not. The absence of providing that note appears to undermine RTÉ's assertion.

RTÉ has been forthcoming with documentation but this document goes to the credibility of the case of RTÉ that only one person had all of the pieces of information. Was the indemnity, which RTÉ has relied on as a key component, known much earlier? That is important for the committee to know. I ask RTÉ to reflect again on the reasons we want the document and on it RTÉ will not provide it. While there are other risks to RTÉ providing that document, including litigation risks and so on, there is also a risk to RTÉ's credibility and the credibility of the answers of its representatives before this committee. That is why we want it and I will not restate the case that other members have made.

I want to come back to procedures and so on. On the raising of credit notes, were there procedures at the time that approved the raising of credit notes and who was responsible for raising credit notes?

Mr. Mike Fives

The commercial director would have been responsible for that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Solely responsible?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Given that we have discovered that the raising of the credit note created the cost-neutral element of it, does Mr. Fives accept that a single person signing off on a credit note is not a robust procedure?

Mr. Mike Fives

No, it is not. The procedures should have been better absolutely..

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has RTÉ made any changes to those procedures?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes, we have. Finance is across all of these as well now.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

How many people sign off on it and how is that done?

Mr. Mike Fives

It would be duly signed off by the financial controller in commercial and the commercial director.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have also fundamentally changed the nature of the barter account. The barter account is not-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That was my next question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It picks up-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Let me get to that. The first issue is the raising of the credit note. The second question is the issue of RTÉ providing indemnity, and I imagine that providing an indemnity always comes with a cost. Who signs off on an indemnity within RTÉ? Was there a procedure for doing that at the time?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It differs if there is a formal legal agreement on the indemnity. It would be the business division and depending on the exposure, it might go further up to the director general.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The business division is, therefore, empowered to provide an indemnity on behalf of RTÉ.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Ms Mullooly believe that is a robust enough procedure, given that in this case the business division provided the indemnity and other people should have known about what happened?

Ms Paula Mullooly

In this particular case, it was the director general who provided indemnity-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes.

Ms Paula Mullooly

-----so the escalation point would always be to the director general in the context of an indemnity.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Surely the failure here was that the broader management team was not aware of all of the pieces? That is RTÉ's argument. When RTÉ provides an indemnity, at the moment that could be provided by the business division and it may be escalated. Are there any procedures for this? An indemnity of €1 million or €2 million could be provided on that basis.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes. It is slightly more complicated than that but the escalation point is the director general. For me, the failing here relates to the fact of the payment not being known more broadly. I accept that other people take a different view-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Ms Mullooly accept that as part of procedures and so on, provision of an indemnity was the key reason the additional two payments had to be made, which is RTÉ's case? If that is-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

It is not the provision; it is the knowledge of the indemnity that is-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is also provision because if it is not given then you do not need to know about it.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

My question is as follows: have there been any changes in procedures for the provision of indemnities? I am not hearing that there have been.

Ms Paula Mullooly

There is no provision because-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Again I think RTÉ should reflect on that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The indemnity was around the employment contract of a presenter in this case. There are completely new procedures in place for contracts for presenters, namely, they have to come to the full leadership team now and not be decided by one or two members or by the director general on his or her own. Second, there is oversight from the board remuneration committee on any new contracts for presenters. If this was part of a contract for a presenter-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will correct Mr. Bakhurst. It was not in the form of an employment contract; that is the whole problem. It was in the form of a separate commercial agreement that was underwritten.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have also made it clear that there are no side letters or deals. There is a single contract-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That brings me to my third question. In the provision of side letters to commercial contracts, surely they would form part of a single file and all of those would be brought to the senior management team. Is that procedure now in place? Are all commercial contracts brought to the senior management team, where previously it was the executive committee?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

All presenter contracts, yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

No, that is not the question. The question was about all commercial agreements. Do not forget that the tripartite agreement was a commercial agreement.

Ms Paula Mullooly

All presenter agreements are brought to the interim leadership team, ILT, and then there has been a reduction in the financial authority limits.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If, in the morning, RTÉ facilitated tripartite agreements for all of its top ten presenters-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

There is no tripartite any more.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

No. If, in the morning, individuals in RTÉ created tripartite agreements for every one of its top ten presenters, that document and any side letters would not necessarily be brought to the senior management team.

Ms Paula Mullooly

It would because it would be part of the presenter arrangement and it would come to the ILT.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

My question is if all side letters and the legal contracts should be treated as one bundle. Is that the case now?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is the case but I would also say that I have made it clear there are no side letters now in presenter contracts; it is all in a contract.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The next point relates to the signature and the finalisation of contracts. There were wholly unacceptable practices here where contracts were agreed and then signatures were only applied much later. Were procedures in place that related to following up on signatures of contracts or completion of contractual arrangements? Who within RTÉ would have been responsible for that?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The signatures for the other parts of the agreement were all fine. They were signed after they were agreed. When it comes to the tripartite agreement, because it was sent in without any other details the following year, we just have not been able to locate a signed copy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

My question was as follows: was that a breach of existing procedures or an absence of procedure?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It was probably an absence of procedure.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I take it that RTÉ has put in place measures relating to the barter account such that more than one person or division must sign off on spending and so on and that there will not be-----

Mr. Mike Fives

Since 12 April 2023, you can no longer spend through the barter account. It is simply for revenue.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am running out of time so I want to rush on to the following issue. There has been a genuine attempt to protect more junior members of staff from having their names released and so on, yet there are times and occasions when more junior members of staff were aware of key facts and that information may not have been scaled up and so on. The legal note and the preparation of same at that meeting were an example of a situation where key discussions took place, yet that information was not scaled up. Because the director general was present, it was felt that if the director general knew, then all of the senior management team should have known. Where the director general can act in a solo manner, are there procedures in place so that junior staff members will report to their line managers about commitments that are made when they are at meetings? Again that seems to be one of the key failures. If the director general wanted to go rogue - and I am not suggesting that she did - surely there were checks in place where other departmental members, albeit not the senior people, were present at meetings?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The giving of the indemnity was within capacity of the director general. There is no question of her having done something outside of her remit in giving the indemnity. The Deputy might agree or disagree with that approach but it was entirely within her remit in the office of the director general.

On the issue of junior members of staff, there are plenty of procedures in place where people behave wrongly. They can bring that information to the appropriate person

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I previously asked Mr. Kelly about his knowledge of the assets account. He consistently said in his evidence that he was not aware of the assets account at the time. The witnesses have provided us with evidence about an additional invoice from CMS for the Chernobyl lunch. It should be noted that the invoice was made in January 2023, whereas the "at the time" reference of Mr. Kelly was in 2022. Do the witnesses concur with that assessment of the timeline? In his evidence Mr. Kelly said that at that time he did not know who assets were, or that is in no way diluted by the knowledge of assets in 2023. Is that a fair assessment?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That is correct.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have a list of questions that I do not want answered now. Please note them and respond by next week. Please do not respond at 11 o'clock the night before. I would appreciate answers in a reasonably time.

People have been in touch with me from RTÉ and I have concerns about what they told me. The first set of questions is for the Department. I want to know the following by next Wednesday: on 21 June, the director general was suspended. When was the Department notified of that, by whom and in what manner? When was the Minister informed, by whom and in what manner? Please do not provide a generic answer. I want the questions answered specifically in the order I ask.

The director general resigned on 29 June. Who in the Department was told about that, by whom in RTÉ and in what manner? When was the Minister told this, by whom and in what manner?

Regarding the Tubridy payments, I ask the same question. When was the Department first told about this, by whom and in what manner? When was the Minister first told this, by whom and in what manner?

My colleagues outlined the issues relating to Mr. Collins resigning pretty well and we can all draw our own conclusions. They are pretty obvious.

My next question is about the minutes of the executive board for the past five years. I asked for these but they have not been provided. You said you had to redact them. You have had four and half months to do so. Can we have them all by next Wednesday, please?

You said there was no gifts register since 2017, which I find absolutely amazing. Will you please write to all employees of RTÉ asking them about gifts from 2017 to now, because the claim that there is no gifts register in RTÉ is beyond comprehension?

I asked the question myself regarding flagship shows in the past five years and how many times RTÉ presenters, or people working for, or paid by, RTÉ, appeared on such shows. You said that it was too difficult to provide that information, which is complete rubbish. The question applies to Friday and Saturday night, more or less. Can that information be provided please because I want it audited? The public wants it audited to see how this cosy relationship has manifested itself and how it is going to change and if it is changing. This is a big issue for the public.

A freeze on employment been announced. Are there two freelancers working on "The Late Late Show" corresponding with other people doing the same jobs? This may or may not be accurate. Please answer if it is and, if so, why

On the subject of Toy Show The Musical, there is a review into this. I respect that. I do not blame RTÉ for trying things. However, the amount put into this was absolutely ridiculous. What are the producers of the show doing now?

I want to address the issue of the MS Teams meeting and the famous tripartite document. I have taken a different angle and I agree with all my colleagues. This is a really serious moment for Mr. Bakhurst. Does Ms Licken believe that RTÉ should provide the Committee of Public Accounts with that document?

Ms Katherine Licken

The Minister has encouraged RTÉ to be as open as possible with both committees. It has done so and has provided a plethora of documents, as everybody has acknowledged. I think RTÉ has to make decisions, having regard to all factors, financial, legal and operational. I cannot second-guess it on that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Ms Licken is proposing that the Minister believes the organisation should be as open as possible.

I came to this meeting with an open mind. To be fair, up to now, Mr. Bakhurst has done a reasonably good job. However, this is a pivotal moment for him. In the past hour, I have changed my stance on the basis of the response Mr. Bakhurst gave this morning to the Chair at the very end of the contribution. The Chair said he would compel this document and we have articulated why it is so important. Mr. Bakhurst said, "We will stand ready for that." That is too confrontational. The second thing Mr. Bakhurst said is that he would like to see our legal advice. This is not a two-way relationship. It is a two-way relationship in that we should be courteous, respect and support each other. However, it is not a two-way relationship in the sense that Mr. Bakhurst gets to see our legal advice. He does not because this is the Oireachtas. We are the elected representatives. We are the people who vote to decide whether we give you money. The taxpayers are watching this so Mr. Bakhurst does not get to see our legal advice. He should withdraw that comment. This is a pivotal moment for him. There is a moral issue here, which my colleagues have articulated better than I can. If we end up in a scenario whereby we have to compel this and it could end up in the courts, Mr. Bakhurst's position will not be tenable. I am sorry; I actually think he had been doing a good job up until now. We are taking a break soon. We are taking a break soon; he needs to reflect during the break. I do not believe in a scenario where he should be in and out of this committee every couple of months. I actually wanted it to end today, but it cannot end until this note is provided. The worries and concerns of this committee and the people watching are so serious that if Mr. Bakhurst does not provide this note, he, Mr Lynch and others will have serious issues into the future

Mr. Bakhurst can respond to that and the next question. I want a breakdown of the roles where people were given voluntary redundancy. Even with the legal advice that he has been given, I believe he can do that for us. I read the legal advice last night and I find it ridiculous. We are all paid by the taxpayer. The people of County Tipperary elect me and they are my bosses but I am paid by the Oireachtas. Can I go to my Oireachtas and ask that what I am paid not be made public? That does not wash

On 29 June, the chairperson said she would provide the salaries of the top 100 earners in RTÉ. I have bad news for Mr. Bakhurst. He reports to the chairperson. She is the most senior person in the organisation. She made a commitment to the committee that she would provide that information. Nothing outranks that. Mr. Bakhurst does not outrank it and any information he gives us subsequently does not outrank that, and she has not withdrawn that. That information has to be provided.

I would like Mr. Bakhurst to respond to the very serious issues regarding the tripartite agreement, the salaries and the pensions.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the document, I have heard what the Deputy has to say. I have full respect for this committee and for the Oireachtas. I also have a responsibility to lead this organisation and to maintain its integrity and independence going forward.

That is ultimately my responsibility and I am answerable to the board for that. I fully respect the committee. We have spent a significant amount of the summer furnishing thousands of documents to this and other committees. We are not being obstructive but as co-operative as we can. We have discussed this at length. It is a point of principle. I do not think I have anything more to say on that.

On the top 100 salaries, we have published them without names, following legal advice, which members will have seen in the Arthur Cox letter. We published the salaries and types of jobs of those people. I am happy to talk to the chair about it again but-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is the chair’s position. Sorry, but she outranks you. She committed to it and it has not been provided.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have provided the top 100 salaries, just without names, following the advice in the Arthur Cox letter.

Deputy Alan Kelly

She made the commitment. That has not been overridden.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will go back to the chair and talk about that but she has seen the legal advice as well.

Deputy Alan Kelly

As it stands four months later, the information from the chair has not been provided.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have provided the salaries of the top 100 without names.

Deputy Alan Kelly

You know what I am saying.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, but you also know that a number of individuals in that list came to us after that was said saying they did not want their salaries provided and-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I did not make the commitment; the chair made it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am afraid I cannot speak here for the chair, but we have spoken about this. She accepts the legal advice from Arthur Cox about the general data protection regulation, GDPR, ramifications.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The committee’s record is what it is.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Okay. I will ask the chair.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There was the third one on pensions.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, I did not hear that question.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Mr. Bakhurst told us the volume of people who got voluntary redundancies under the two packages but he never provided the roles, names or anything.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think the details of the voluntary exit packages will be in the independent report.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We asked previously, so can you at least provide the roles?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will go away and look for what is asked for. Can I ask one thing about the list of information sought? Some of it is very significant and goes back many years, particularly if we are to ask staff for details going back to 2017. I am happy to do it but maybe we can discuss the exact timetable because it involves-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

The only one of significance, going back, is the executive minutes, which RTÉ has had four and a half months to provide.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will ask where that has got to.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The committee is trying to put a picture together. There are people unable to attend and some are refusing to attend. That is part of the reason that document is so central. We are united on that in the committee.

Between the Department and RTÉ, quite a lot of money is being spent on outside agencies to inquire into what happened. The Grant Thornton report of 16 June says that on 9 May and 16 July, "the Talent’s Agent raised invoices of €75,000 each with the Barter Company" and that “On the balance of probabilities, the description on the invoices, 'Consultancy Fees' did not reflect the substance of the transactions”. It went on to say: “On the balance of probabilities these two invoices [referred to] 'Consultancy Fees' related to Year 2 and Year 3 of the Talents contract...”.

We subsequently got documents from Ryan Tubridy and his agent and saw the instructions given by Geraldine O’Leary to the agent:

Do not put any person's name on the Invoice. If he sends It back to me I will then sort everything else out.

It said the company name to be put on the invoice was Astus, the address to be put on the invoice and so on. I asked one of the people who has refused to attend today, Geraldine O’Leary, when she was in before if anything had been raised with her about these invoices in 2022. She said: “No, the issue [only] came up in March of this year, in 2023.” I said:

So Ms O'Leary is saying, categorically, that nothing was raised with her last year in relation to this invoice. She is absolutely categoric about that.

She said, “Yes.” Then I asked what she told the staff to do when they asked her what the consultancy services were for, and it goes on. The transcript is available. Before Geraldine O’Leary departed RTÉ, did Mr. Bakhurst interview her about her exact role in all this? Has she co-operated with the various inquiries taking place?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can answer part of that. It was just after I arrived that she left. Mr. Lynch can possibly answer about what she was asked at the time. She made it clear in her letter to this committee - I am not sure if it has been published or not – when she said she was not coming today. She has said she will answer any questions in writing. She continues to be happy to answer questions in writing despite having left the organisation and retired. My experience has been she has co-operated fully throughout and is-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The information we were subsequently given is completely at odds with what she told me. We will have to reflect that in our report. We may well have further contact with her.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

She is happy to answer in writing if the committee has any further questions.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is no doubt but this was raised with her.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Geraldine O'Leary was invited to attend today and chose not to attend.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

She refused to attend.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

She sent a letter which I was asked to pass on. I think she would be happy if it were published. It is about why she is not prepared or able to attend but also states she is happy to answer questions in writing.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When you come in here, people expect people to be truthful. They expect candour. I asked a specific question and got a categoric answer. We see from the documentation provided that that did not transpire to be true.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would expect her to answer that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Breda O’Keeffe did not attend when invited to a previous Committee of Public Accounts session. She has never attended and has refused to attend this committee. She is a central figure. There are no two ways about it. All of the documentation shows that. We are trying to find out who knew what and when. I am using the documents sent to us by Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy, which state:

To our surprise, Ms O’Keeffe told the committee last week that when she left RTÉ in March there was no support to provide that type of guarantee and no such guarantee was on offer. [But] she had written to us making exactly that offer one month earlier.

That is the 20 February document we have, which goes through it in great detail. Then we have the side letter from Dee Forbes on the agreement between Tuttle Productions Limited and RTÉ. That is March 2020. She did not turn up at the committee. Mr. Kelly's written statement notes it was not challenged by people and that he was surprised because:

on the 30th of June, 4 days before they appeared at the Media Committee - we wrote to RTE and highlighted the significance of Ms. O’Keeffe’s email.

Nobody disputed that.

Her email also cast new light on the contribution of Adrian Lynch, Deputy Director General... Mr. Lynch told the Committee agreement to ... underwrite the contract was given verbally on ...Zoom...

There are a lot of documents before that. Has Mr. Lynch reviewed those documents since they were provided by Mr. Tubridy and his agent?

Is Mr. Lynch's recollection now different to what it was then?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

We provided a very detailed chronology to this committee, with hundreds of emails in addition to the emails that were supplied by Noel Kelly. There are a few important things to say here, one of which relates specifically to the question of the documents and notes from 7 May. If one looks at them and at the emails we provided to the committee, it is quite obvious that in this negotiation there was some backwards and forwards around the guarantee. A guarantee is not provided, so-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have very little time and have been interrupted-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am sorry, but this is really important. That guarantee was not provided. The Deputy will see from the correspondence from the lawyer who represents Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly, that they were looking for this-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does Mr. Lynch-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Please let me finish. This is a really important point about 7 May. The Deputy is looking for clarification-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Lynch is just winding my time down.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am not. I am trying to clarify something that is really important in the context of what this House is seeking. Mr. Kelly was seeking a commitment that the contract would be underwritten but that was not given until 7 May. Deputy Murphy is looking for clarity around what happened at that meeting. If one looks at the facts, we know what happened at that meeting.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am sorry but I have to stop Mr. Lynch there-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

No-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I really have to stop him there-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The Deputy is not allowing me to answer the question.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I really have to stop him there.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The House has asked a question around 7 May and I really am trying to clarify it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am looking at the document of 20 February. Breda O'Keeffe was the chief financial officer. She was in negotiations with the agent for Ryan Tubridy, who very clearly says that he needs a side letter agreement from RTÉ to guarantee and underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract and beyond, into the next contract. The document says that "good progress" was made on what the commercial agreement would be, with one appearance in Dublin and two outside Dublin. At the very end, it says that RTÉ will provide a side letter to underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract. That document is dated 20 February.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

That is correct and what we do know is that it was not agreed until 7 May. If one looks at the tripartite agreement, one sees that there is no reference to €75,000 in it and there is no underwriting in it. In fact, there is reference to a fee of €500 in it. The agent had looked for the underwriting through that entire period but that was not provided until that meeting. Three payments were made on the basis of that meeting. When the agent was written to and asked, he did not refer to 20 February but to 7 May.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did Breda O'Keeffe have the authority to put that in writing to Mr. Tubridy or his agent on 20 February?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

My understanding is that it was an ongoing negotiation. The chief financial officer was leading that negotiation herself.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Her words are very categoric.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes, they are.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

She either had or did not have the authority to do that. That is pretty convincing. Finally-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy, you are well over time. The chief financial officer was leading the negotiations at that point.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I just ask one final question on the NewERA report? Obviously that is a critical report but we do not have sight of it. Can the Department provide us with the elements of that report that would give us some indication of how the calculations in relation to the licence fee were made and what the shortfall is likely to be, as well as the recommendations made in the report in relation to how RTÉ should be funded?

Ms Katherine Licken

The report is not published. It is part of a deliberative process involving the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, Deputy Donohoe and the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin. The report suggests a licence fee shortfall between this year and next year of €60 million. It suggests interim funding of €16 million, which aligns with what the Future of Media Commission recommended. In the first instance, that would be what would have been required if none of this had happened. The report then estimates that another €40 million would be required. The balance of €20 million would be made up by RTÉ through cost savings and through its cash reserves. That is what the report recommends.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does it say anything more?

Ms Katherine Licken

It is a detailed report but it has not been published.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can we have a redacted version of it?

Ms Katherine Licken

It is not the norm to publish NewERA reports. Obviously, we would have to consult on that because it is not just a matter for the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media but is also a matter for the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform. NewERA comes under the remit of the latter Department.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could Ms Licken make that request?

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Munster is next.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will start with the McCann Fitzgerald report and the correspondence the committee was furnished with. The severance package schemes date from 2017 to 2021. What amounts are we talking about and what sort of positions, primarily, were the focus?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ms Cusack can answer that question.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Under the 2021 scheme there were 184 applications and 25 people were released.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How many, sorry?

Ms Eimear Cusack

A total of 25 people left under that scheme. Under the 2017 scheme, 182 people were released, 45 applicants were refused, 25 were offered a severance package but decided not to accept the offer, and eight people withdrew.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That would cover not just voluntary packages but also exit packages-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

Those are all of the packages under the schemes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In relation to the former chief financial officer, Breda O'Keeffe, and her exit package, this committee was told that it was not approved by the board or even seen by the board. That package would contravene existing RTÉ rules. I am right in saying that?

Ms Eimear Cusack

The rules of the two schemes were slightly different. However, what I would say is that how all of the decisions were arrived at would be part of the McCann Fitzgerald report and that will be made very clear-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

If an exit package was issued but the position was not redundant, that would contradict RTÉ's existing rules.

Ms Eimear Cusack

In the 2021 scheme, it was absolutely clear in the documentation that roles had to be suppressed in full. In 2017, because the organisation was undergoing a restructure, a small number of people were released where other roles were suppressed. In the main, however, they were suppressed.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Let us just focus on this one particular case so we can get clarity. The former chief financial officer got an exit package. Her position was not made redundant. The norm is that exit packages are not given unless the position is made redundant. The chief financial officer who resigned yesterday had replaced Ms O'Keeffe, so the position was still there. In that context, did that break RTÉ's own rules?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Under that particular scheme, what was required was up to 80% savings on each role so that where a role was released, cost savings would be made. However, she was replaced.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Should she or should she not have gotten an exit package, given that the position was still there and someone else was going to be appointed to it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

This is one of the reasons I commissioned the McCann Fitzgerald report, to look into the details of these packages.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is fair enough and I understand that. The report will go into these issues in detail but if it is a fact that an exit package was given to somebody who did not qualify for it, Mr. Bakhurst does not need a review to tell him that. I am talking about a very recent case involving the former chief financial officer. In order to regain public confidence, when people constantly see that nobody is ever held to account and that people simply walk away, is Mr. Bakhurst going to consider recouping the moneys that were paid by way of exit package to which that person was not entitled? Is he going to recoup those public moneys?

It would be a way to show RTÉ is holding people to account. Earlier, Mr. Bakhurst said Ryan Tubridy had a moral imperative to pay back that money. This package was paid and agreed by the executive board, although perhaps not by the director general. The former CEO swanned off with the exit package and someone was appointed to the position. Will RTÉ recoup moneys paid in circumstances such as this? Will the review state clearly that RTÉ will recoup these public moneys?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have asked that the review set out the facts. As soon as we have the facts, we will look at all of the options available to us, to answer Deputy Munster's question.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Would the former CEO have been on 80% more than the CFO who resigned yesterday?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

In terms of salary?

Deputy Imelda Munster

In terms of what you said earlier, yes.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

To achieve a cost saving.

An Cathaoirleach

One questioner at a time, please.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is with regard to the 80% cost saving.

An Cathaoirleach

In the statement Ms Cusack made a few moments ago she said that where there is an 80% saving, there can be an exit package.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I was not speaking in particular about the chief financial officer.

Deputy Imelda Munster

My question is specifically on this.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Cost savings were achieved but not directly through the appointment of a new CFO.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I want to touch on another issue that has to be resolved if there is ever to be public trust or confidence, not only among the general public and TV licence payers but in particular the workers at RTÉ. I am speaking about those who were misclassified in bogus self-employment. We have been told that money had been set aside. We know that €1.2 million was paid to Revenue for PRSI in a certain number of cases. We know there are more than 500 people involved. We know that 137 people were dealt with even though some of these cases are being appealed. How much has been set aside to cover what is owed to Revenue because of bogus employment contracts?

Mr. Mike Fives

As part of the year end review, we have engaged with NewERA and taken it through the details. As it is still ongoing, we are not in a position to disclose the exact amount. There is significant-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will Mr. Fives give us a rough amount? Is it €10 million, €20 million or €30 million?

Mr. Mike Fives

It will be millions of euro.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Is is under €20 million.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Has money been set aside for workers as compensation for the entitlements they lost, including PRSI, pensions, holiday pay and sick leave? Has money been set aside for this?

Ms Paula Mullooly

They are live legal matters. My advice to RTÉ is that it cannot disclose the details of those provisions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

There was an RTÉ staff meeting yesterday. Was it not said at the meeting that correcting the wrong with financial compensation for the workers who were misclassified will not happen? Perhaps Mr. Bakhurst can clarify that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think that is what I said. I think we-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did you say it would bankrupt RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As Deputy Munster knows, there was a process with Eversheds which addressed approximately 80 of these cases. It was an agreed process with the unions. The vast majority of people signed up to it and have received some compensation. What I said at the staff meeting yesterday when I was asked about it was about a number of individuals who have not agreed to the outcome of the process. It is a small number of fewer than ten people. I have met several of them individually or in a small group on whether we can reopen their cases after the Eversheds process.

Deputy Imelda Munster

We are speaking about 500 workers over a long period of time.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does RTÉ intend to compensate those workers who lost out on holiday pay and all of their entitlements due to this misclassification, or bogus self-employment in real terms. Does RTÉ intend to compensate these workers?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are working through the larger number of 500 in the process with the scope unit.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That will take a significant amount of time. Where people are due extra PRSI payments obviously RTÉ is making those payments.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is paying Revenue because it has to pay Revenue. It is looking at €20 million of public money for this payment. I am speaking about the workers specifically.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I started in RTÉ in 2017. One of the issues brought to my attention first was that of contractors. A commitment was made to look at this. We began the Eversheds process is 2018. As part of that, we established a set of governing principles with the trade union group. There were 12 in all and 11 applied to how contracts would be issued and what would be considered. Contracts were issued to 82 individuals, 79 of whom accepted. As part of this acceptance, there were intense discussions with the individuals and their trade union representatives. Clause 12 provided that, without prejudice at the end of the process, a discussion would take place between the trade union group and RTÉ on outstanding matters including retrospection.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Cusack.

Ms Eimear Cusack

We then engaged in that process. RTÉ and the trade union group agreed that it would probably be more effective and we would make more progress more quickly if it was facilitated. Both sides nominated a party to facilitate the process. RTÉ had an independent nominee and the trade union group nominated Sheila Noonan. We then engaged in the process. The result of that was a settlement and a number of other issues. The majority signed up to that. There is a small number who did not. In this context the scope unit began its investigations in September 2020, looking into PRSI insurability. It has looked at a number of cases. It has looked at 149 out of 695 cases since September 2020.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ is appealing some of those cases. It is taking workers to-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

We are appealing some of the cases not for the sake of it but on the basis of fact or law. We have also had engagements with the scope unit on corrections which then did not go to appeal.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ is spending more taxpayers' money fighting workers for moneys to which they are entitled.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, it is not fighting workers. Where we have-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

When RTÉ is arguing these cases at the WRC it brings Arthur Cox in with it. Could we be furnished with the amount it has cost so far to fight these cases?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The question still has not been answered. Every committee member has said this morning that public trust and confidence are at zero. I have said previously that RTÉ has a mountain to climb. Any of the responses we have received this morning would certainly not add confidence or trust.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Munster.

Deputy Imelda Munster

At the beginning of the meeting, Mr. Bakhurst said he would furnish an outline framework of the report in October, with a more detailed and costed statement of strategy by early next year. This has to include everything we have raised today and the responses. Nobody would back interim funding as it stands at present.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If RTÉ is going to fight workers who have spent years looking for-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Munster has gone over time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----their basic entitlements, it will go down the chute.

Deputy Verona Murphy

On a point of clarity, Mr. Fives said that less than €20 million had been set aside to resolve the issues. Is that €20 million, or whatever the figure is, part of RTÉ's cash reserve of €68 million or is it in addition to that?

Mr. Mike Fives

It is part of it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is part of it.

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes. We do not have an additional €20 million set aside for it.

An Cathaoirleach

That is clear and I thank Mr. Fives. It is a valid question.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Thank you.

An Cathaoirleach

That leaves €48 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is really €48 million.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

It is in the region of €50 million that RTÉ might have.

Mr. Mike Fives

I want to clarify this. When we are forecasting our models, that figure is included in the runway that we have in cash.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Just to be transparent for the public.

Mr. Mike Fives

I am happy to clarify it.

Sitting suspended at 11.09 a.m. and resumed at 11.19 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. Bakhurst want to reconsider the position he took this morning in refusing to provide that note?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We just discussed it. One thing I would like to highlight is, as I understand it, Noel Kelly has given an account of what happened at that meeting. Dee Forbes was asked about that in the Grant Thornton one, which did not dispute Noel Kelly's account. We do not dispute either account of what happened at that meeting from those two people who were there. Those are in the public domain. However, the core principle on the note remains I am afraid.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I wanted to clarify that for the committee.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That was the first question I was going to ask. The Cathaoirleach took the words out of my mouth there.

I will return to the metaphor to which Deputy Murphy was alluding, in that we are trying to build a picture here. We have key pieces of the jigsaw that were hidden down the back of the couch for a while but we are still missing central pieces. We have Breda O'Keeffe who has never appeared before this committee, Geraldine O'Leary who refused an invite today, and Dee Forbes and Jim Jennings who are not in a position to attend. Then we are left with this frustrating impasse around a note of the meeting of 7 May 2020. There has been a moving of goalposts regarding the privilege attached to that document. That has been resolved and now it is a case of client confidentiality. Does Mr. Bakhurst accept in principle that RTÉ could waive this client confidentiality if it chose to do so?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is the advice I have been given, yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is a decision not to waive that confidentiality.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, but I will repeat what I just said, which is that we have Noel Kelly's version of what was said at that meeting.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have Dee Forbes agreeing that. We do not dispute either of those accounts. In terms of the information that it may or may not shed, we already have the accounts of the two individuals who were at that meeting.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr Lynch has doubled down on the fact that this was the key moment where the tripartite agreement is finally underwritten. This is the point at which, indirectly to some extent, the taxpayer is put on the hook for €225,000. It happens in this meeting and we are blind to what happened in that meeting, notwithstanding Mr. Bakhurst saying we have one side of the account.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have both sides of it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How long was the meeting? Was it a ten-minute meeting or a three-hour meeting? Did we have multiple-----

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Mullooly may be able to shed some light on this.

Ms Paula Mullooly

We do not have any detail as regards that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I find that difficult to comprehend.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Was it on Microsoft Teams?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes. It was a remote meeting. It was during Covid.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I think we have supplied the start time of the meeting but we do not know what the end time was.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am gobsmacked by that, if I am honest. The frustration is that the minuting of the meeting has not been separated out from the legal advice part of it. Whatever legal sidebars have happened in terms of RTÉ getting legal advice within that meeting, I am not sure if the committee has an interest in that or not, but I certainly have an interest in is the timeline of the over and back between the people who were in that meeting. I am assuming Mr. Bakhurst has read the note.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have not read the note.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What I wanted to know was whether it was possible to separate out whatever those legal sidebars were from the blow by blow - what I would expect to see minuted in a regular meeting. Even to meet us halfway in that regard, we could be provided with a redacted version that would give us a blow-by-blow account. However, Mr. Bakhurst is saying he has not read the note. We cannot tell a start and stop time so-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I can help somewhat with that. At the last meeting, I gave a commitment to this committee that I would get the entire legal file reviewed by external lawyers in relation to what could and could not be shared. Following that review, a very significant amount of information was subsequently shared with this committee and the Deputy will have received it. We tried to put it in an order that would make sense to committee members. However, there is a small amount of documentation that has not been shared, which is either covered by legal advice privilege or by client confidentiality. For RTÉ as an organisation and for the functioning of the independent solicitor's office within RTÉ, it is important that those lines are maintained because it fundamentally affects how this solicitor's office and how RTÉ function.

In respect of the specific note, the committee has the two emails from Noel Kelly which set out what took place in that meeting and the Grant Thornton report which sets out the former director general's version of what took place in that meeting. We do not dispute either of those versions of events. The committee has all of the information. The only thing it does not have is the physical note.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is a continued frustration on the part of this committee. As I said, we are looking for the pieces of the jigsaw, some of which are getting stuffed down the back of the couch, for us to build a picture on behalf of the taxpayer, which is what we are interested in doing here. There is an element of the return of the circus here this morning. I know other committee members share my frustration that we do not have that McCann FitzGerald report, which was going to be a substantial piece of work that we could have used in interrogating this decision.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I apologise for that. I explained the delay, which was a request from McCann FitzGerald in terms of getting the full facts to deliver that report. It was not my intention because I asked for it by the end of September.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This committee deliberately gave breathing space at the start of this Dáil term because we had anticipated that report in particular being completed, which would have allowed us to interrogate, in a meaningful way, that corporate culture we are looking to get to.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I also anticipated that and that is what I asked for. I am also disappointed but it is important when you commission independent reports, you give time.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have a couple of places I still want to go and time is against me.

Mr. Bakhurst identified that 51% of the organisation's costs are related to "people costs", as he termed it, that is, salary and wages. We know there have been findings made against RTÉ regarding freelancers and what is essentially bogus self-employment. We know there is still some work under way in that regard. I am assuming this is part of the work the expert advisory group is looking at. Have we any sense of all of future liabilities, either to Revenue or the Department of Social Protection, that may be outstanding for RTÉ? I understand there is an element of crystal ball-gazing in this but as we are modelling our future funding forecasts, and Mr. Fives has spoken about when we expect the money might run out unless other things come into play, do we know what is coming down the tracks here? Have we any sort of modelling and is that factored in?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have done it as best we can and that is why the level of the provision is there in the accounts that Mr. Fives described earlier on. That is our best estimate of what the liability could be. We are working through this closely. I have had a meeting with the scope section of the Department to look at and discuss the process because it is a very significant-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Exposure.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is a significant exposure but it is a significant amount of work, both for us and for scope as well.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

One of the key frustrations for me is this. It was not that there was a lack of corporate governance structures but that the structures that were there did not work. This is particularly true of the reporting between the executive board and the board. While I do not want to draw this analogy, I used to serve on my school board. You would think a school board would be much more of a Mickey Mouse affair in comparison to RTÉ and the size of the cash flows. However, on a school board level, the principal has to make a child protection oversight report every single time the board of management comes together. More often than not - and what one hopes for - is that the board members will say there is nothing to report. There is, however, a formalised process where, every single month, the question is asked whether there is anything happening in terms of the child protection oversight report.

I want to focus on the remuneration committee. It met patchily at best.

It was poorly attended and the minuting was not up the job. Mr. Bakhurst stated the oversight of new contracts is being taken up by the remuneration committee. How many people are being put on that committee? How often is it meeting? What are its obligations to report to the executive board or to the board proper, which is the real oversight on behalf of the taxpayer? Have those issues been rectified and proper functioning set in stone?

Ms Paula Mullooly

There has been a significant rewriting of the terms of reference for the remuneration committee. It-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Has that been shared with the committee? I do not remember reading it.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am not sure whether it has been shared with the committee. I can provide it if that helps. It was approved at the most recent board meeting, which was on 26 September.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A blizzard of documentation has been received and I may not have seen that document.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I can share it with the committee. It is designed to cover not only executive pay and presenters' pay but also things like exit packages or voluntary exit programmes, VEPs, for executive members. It is more thorough. The remuneration committee has met five times since April this year. It will report to the board at every meeting. All subcommittees will now present a report to the board at every board meeting.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have a quick question for the Department. The taxpayer is funding RTÉ out of Vote 33 to the tune of €200 million or whatever it is every year. Does the Department have oversight of this review of those reporting mechanisms in order that it can be satisfied on behalf of the taxpayer that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated? What proactive steps has the Department taken in that regard?

Ms Katherine Licken

When this issue first emerged on 22 July, the Minister moved quickly to appoint an expert advisory committee in respect of governance and culture at RTÉ for precisely that reason, that is, to dig in to see whether the corporate governance is fit for purpose, whether it is delivering and how we can learn from the mistakes that happened and ensure they do not happen again. She also met with the staff and unions and set up a separate expert advisory committee relating to HR and other matters. Those reports are ongoing. Crowe Advisory has been appointed as adviser to the two expert committees and obviously we have the Mazars report, all looking at the barter account. All of that is designed to inform us. They are independent reports to inform us as to what are the next steps in terms of governance. In the meantime, RTÉ is taking its own steps, as Ms Mullooly pointed out, in terms of the board and the structures, that it needs to do. We did not expect RTÉ just to wait until these reports are concluded. We expect it to get on with the job in the meantime and we will see what comes out of those reports early in the new year.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank Mr. Bakhurst, Ms Licken and their staff for coming in this morning. I know the witnesses have gone over the issue of legal privilege repeatedly, but my understanding is that it is normally claimed where there is a risk of creating further claims against the particular authority or board. Is it true there is no risk from releasing these documents? Why is RTÉ being so protective in claiming that privilege?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It is in the context of RTÉ having an independent solicitor's office that provides advice to the organisation. RTÉ has declined-----

Deputy Colm Burke

My question is clear. There is no risk of additional legal proceedings occurring as a result of agreeing to release the document; is that correct?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not think it is.

Deputy Colm Burke

Ms Mullooly is saying that if this document were to be released, it could create a platform for further legal proceedings to be issued.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, I am saying there is a risk for the organisation in doing its work and finding-----

Deputy Colm Burke

How is there a risk if there is no likelihood of any claim being made as a result of the document being released?

Ms Paula Mullooly

In the context of RTÉ's solicitor's office providing advice and having meetings with its clients with third parties present-----

Deputy Colm Burke

The other part of the scenario is that RTÉ is trying to regain the confidence of the general public. If the general public - the people who pay the licence fee - believe that not all the cards are on the table, is that not putting RTÉ more at risk than anything else?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I disagree. I would say the-----

Deputy Colm Burke

The general public have stopped paying licence fees-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I would like to be able to answer.

Deputy Colm Burke

-----because they do not have confidence as not all the documents are being released.

An Cathaoirleach

The point the Deputy is making is legitimate.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I would like to be allowed to answer the question.

An Cathaoirleach

For clarity, the point the Deputy is making is that Ms Mullooly said it is for the operation of the legal-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am sorry; I did not catch that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The clock should be stopped.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask for the clock to be stopped. Ms Mullooly stated that this relates to the operation of legal services within RTÉ. The Deputy is asking a clear question, namely, where is the risk in releasing this information?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The risk is for the organisation and it is quite a fundamental risk.

An Cathaoirleach

What risk?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It is the risk in terms of how we do business.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Ms Mullooly just-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I ask the Cathaoirleach to please let me finish. I ask to be allowed to finish this point.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to allow the Deputy to continue his questioning.

Ms Paula Mullooly

RTÉ's solicitor's office provides confidential advice. It has confidential meetings with its clients. I ask that I please be allowed to finish. Let us take, for example, a situation where "Prime Time" wants to carry out an investigative programme.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Mullooly is talking about a different issue.

Ms Paula Mullooly

It has a meeting with the solicitor's office. There may be third parties present. Their discussions are confidential. It is really important they be kept confidential. That is the risk.

Deputy Colm Burke

The issue here does not relate to any investigation RTÉ is doing. This relates to the functioning of the board as regards the management. The risk here to RTÉ is far greater. The general public have a lack of confidence in it and that confidence can only be restored where there is full disclosure. It is, therefore, to the benefit of RTÉ to make that disclosure. That is the question I asked.

Ms Paula Mullooly

What I would say is this is a fundamental point of principle for RTÉ.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will move on to the issue of the barter account and the audit committee. There are a number of aspects to the barter account. There was the issue where advertising was provided as a result of people going through the account. Surely the management team within RTÉ was aware of the use of the barter account and that once a person was contracted through the account, RTÉ could not claim back anything at any stage. Mr. Bakhurst made the point that the money given to Ryan Tubridy through the barter account is not legally reclaimable. One or two people have clearly been identified in the context of the barter account but there must have been many other people who were also aware of the barter account. From a legal point of view, was the legal department aware of the existence of the barter account? Did it give advice at any stage about the risk to RTÉ and the fact that any moneys paid through the account could not be reclaimed?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I joined RTÉ in 2019. From the time I joined, there was no advice given in relation to-----

Deputy Colm Burke

That is not the question I am asking. I am asking whether the legal department was aware of the existence of the barter account.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Not to my knowledge.

Deputy Colm Burke

Senior management were aware of it. There was also advertising made available through the barter account at knockdown prices. Surely more than a handful of people knew about it. Far more people knew about this barter account. Surely someone must have gone to the legal department at some stage and said: "We are doing this with a company. What is your advice?"

Ms Paula Mullooly

Not to my knowledge did that happen.

Deputy Colm Burke

Ms Mullooly is saying there was a whole lot of transactions going on within RTÉ but nobody sought legal advice regarding the fairly substantial amounts involved.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I have no knowledge of legal advice being sought on anything relating to the barter account.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

One of the things Mazars has been asked to look at is how the barter account was set up and the beginning of the barter account in 2012. I assume there was advice given at that point, but that will be part of what Mazars reports on. It is accepted by us, however, and that is why we changed it.

There was complete lack of oversight of the barter account, and that is why it is being brought in over finance and that is why it now only trades in air time and that is it.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can I move on----

Mr. Conor Mullen

If I can just add, the purpose of the barter account is essentially a trading mechanism. The facility in terms of making the payments is why we are here but it is fundamentally there to carry advertising.

Deputy Colm Burke

I accept that but what I am saying is that quite a number of people knew of its existence; what I am surprised at is that no one within the legal department was aware that if something went through this, it could not be claimed back. Can I just move on----

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is a payment that goes through and it is paid to RTÉ.

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes, but RTÉ has no right now to claim back any of that money that was paid out through that barter account. It is outside the jurisdiction.

Mr. Conor Mullen

That has nothing to do with the barter account, though.

Deputy Colm Burke

It is outside the jurisdiction. Even though all the parties were within the jurisdiction involved in the payment, the payment was made by a company outside the jurisdiction.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

So far as I am aware, the payments to Ryan Tubridy from the barter account are the only payments that were made to a presenter through the barter account. I do not think any others have been discovered.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will move on to the Secretary General of the Department. When did the Department become aware that there was an issue in the 2022 accounts?

Ms Katherine Licken

At the end of March we became aware that there was an issue and that the----

Deputy Colm Burke

Was the Minister informed at that stage?

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

What action was taken? RTÉ is getting substantial funding from the Department. It is also reliant on funding from licence fees. What action was then taken and what questions were put to the board its the checks and balances? Were they put immediately or was it a case of waiting to see what developed?

Ms Katherine Licken

In fairness at the time, the chair did not have the detail, nor did the board, of what exactly----

Deputy Colm Burke

Did the Department write to the board?

Ms Katherine Licken

No, we did not. The chair was very clear and I think she was very clear at this committee and at the Oireachtas joint committee that she did not have the detail and that the purpose of contracting Grant Thornton to do a review was to undertake a fact-finding mission to get the facts.

Deputy Colm Burke

In relation to the Department and the checks and balances relating to State companies, surely when the Department gets a set of accounts, is there not a series of questions it would ask? For instance, the audit and risk committee was just non-functioning in real terms. It did not do its homework.

Ms Katherine Licken

I suppose the issue when it came to us was from the audit and risk committee, through the chair, to say that an issue had been identified through the governance mechanisms, which is the external audit.

Deputy Colm Burke

This issue was going on for a number of years before the committee members found it. Is an audit and risk committee not there to make sure everything is done above board and is fully transparent? This was going on for a number of years, which they were not aware of. Surely they are falling down in their job there.

Ms Katherine Licken

That is precisely why the Minister established the two expert advisory committees and the work that has been undertaken to see what the governance arrangements were and where the weaknesses were in the governance, in order to make sure that it cannot happen again.

Deputy Colm Burke

Surely because the Department was paying so much money to RTÉ, there must have been some level of scrutiny going on within the Department as well, such that it is not relying solely on the auditors every year. Surely there were questions the Department was asking, or why were they not asked over the past three to four years prior to this breaking?

Ms Katherine Licken

Absolutely we would but the Deputy must understand that the Department's role is not transactional. At the end of the day, this was a transaction or transactions that occurred----

Deputy Colm Burke

However, the Department is accountable to the taxpayers in the sense of the money going from the State into RTÉ and, therefore, there must be a level of scrutiny by the Department to make sure there is full accountability.

Ms Katherine Licken

There is scrutiny. We meet with RTÉ very regularly.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is Ms Licken saying this scrutiny fell down 12 months ago?

Ms Katherine Licken

What we are saying is that the scrutiny that is normal for Departments and their agencies is that we look at the governance arrangements, we rely on the assurances of the board that the governance is in place and we look at the cash flows but we do not get into individual transactions. We could not have seen this----

Deputy Colm Burke

With regard to the board, does Ms Licken accept that there were failures by the board in dealing with this issue down through the years as well?

Ms Katherine Licken

The chair of the board has made her own comments on that, and the precise reason that the Minister set up the two expert advisory committees is to look at any governance failures that are there. That is what they will do.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome our witnesses. My first question is for Mr. Bakhurst. Many questions have been asked about the agreement and indeed the McCann FitzGerald report. Can I just get clarity? As far as I am aware there are reports by Mazars, Grant Thornton and McCann FitzGerald. Are all the big firms employed now by RTÉ for reviews? How many are under way?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think the Deputy has listed those----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Just those?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Those reports and the Department's own reviews.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The expert overview, okay.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Those are the ones to my knowledge, yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Were the Mazars, Grant Thornton and McCann FitzGerald reviews initiated by RTÉ directly or did the Department initiate them?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Grant Thornton and McCann were initiated by RTÉ and the Mazars ongoing reporting was commissioned by the Department.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Does Mr. Bakhurst have an estimate of how much these are going to cost RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is a significant cost. We do not know the exact figure at the moment because we are paying it as the companies go along. We are allowing approximately €250,000 a month for these ongoing reports.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

A month?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

€250,000 a month for the----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is that each?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, overall.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is great value.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, which is very painful when you are in our financial position.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

RTÉ's financial position was discussed earlier. Going on the questioning from Deputy Colm Burke regarding the lack of oversight of the organisation and this whole mess, this is costing RTÉ thousands of euro per day just to investigate the problem. It will make findings, maybe, but it is still not getting RTÉ any closer to the reforms Mr. Bakhurst spoke to staff about yesterday as I understand. Is that right?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, that is not entirely right. We are making reforms as we go. For example, when we had the interim report from Mazars, we immediately addressed the main conclusions and made the changes we needed to make straightaway. We have made significant changes at board level, at leadership team level and across the organisation in terms of where we have identified weaknesses we have either closed the gaps or tightened them up as far as we can.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Other issues will be identified in the reports which RTÉ will take action on.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Can I just ask about the McCann FitzGerald report? We scheduled this meeting in advance of the summer hoping we would have it by now. I understand it is out of Mr. Bakhurst's hands but it is expected. Does he have an estimated time of when it is due to be complete?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They asked me for another three or four weeks. I had asked them for the report by the end of September so I am expecting it by the end of this month.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In terms of the exit packages themselves, I think it was Ms Cusack who responded earlier. Is it correct that the packages were in 2017 and 2021?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Correct.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There were obviously others that predate that but that is not within the scope of the review. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The review is to look at those two recent rounds.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am not looking for specific details on those particular two but in terms of the packages themselves, who would have signed off on them?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was intended that full executive should sign off on those----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Sorry, the which?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was intended that the executive at that stage should sign off on the exit packages once they had been agreed by the individual departments. One of the things I have asked the inquiry to look at is the procedure for signing off those packages and if that happened as a matter of course. I do not believe necessarily it did.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The sign-off is one issue. On the creation of the packages, did the person who was leaving have an input into those packages? I mean any person generally, not one person in particular.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ms Cusack might answer that.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The 2017 package would have been designed primarily by finance with HR involvement.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Would the individual leaving have been involved?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

On the 2021 package, was the individual involved in as well?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Primarily that was HR.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Primarily but possibly.

Ms Eimear Cusack

The individual left the organisation in April 2020. We got approval from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for the 2021 scheme much later in that year. The terms of the scheme were the very same as 2017 with the exception that we drew out that all roles had to be suppressed because 2017 was undergoing a restructure.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

They kept them open. It was a cultural thing that an individual who was leaving RTÉ on a very good salary had probably quite a good degree of influence in terms of their exit package and the shape of that package.

Would that be fair to say?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Deputy-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It could be any individual, not one in particular.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not any individual but maybe some individuals. That is one of the reasons I commissioned this report, because I was concerned by that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

We were too, as we have discussed before. I have a question regarding those who have exited the organisation. It is not necessarily about those who exited most recently because there was more of an exodus yesterday. Was it yesterday? Did Mr. Collins resign formally yesterday or was that previous to yesterday?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was agreed on Monday.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. With regard to the others who have exited the organisation, we are waiting to hear from some and others who we would like to come before the committee have just point-blank refused. Has Mr. Bakhurst, as the new director general, had contact from Ms Forbes, Ms Moran, Ms O'Leary or any of those?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have had no contact with Dee Forbes. I think I said this previously. I had contact with her in the first couple of weeks after I was appointed but that was before this all happened.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Has he had any contact over the summer months?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No. I have had no contact with Dee Forbes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What about the others?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have had contact with Geraldine O'Leary-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Was that after she resigned?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That was after she was gone, yes. I have had contact with Rory Coveney has well.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What about Ms Moran?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry, I do not know-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Breda Moran.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Does the Deputy mean Breda O'Keeffe?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am sorry; Ms Breda O'Keeffe.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have had no contact with her but she is in contact with some members of the leadership team.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I raise the ongoing issue of the licence fee. When Mr. Bakhurst was here before the summer, I inquired about it at that stage and he said there was not such a great impact at that point. Obviously things are drastically different now. RTÉ is bringing reforms forward and Mr. Bakhurst spoke to the staff at the town hall-style meeting. What is the collection rate as of today? Maybe that is a question for the Department more than for RTÉ but I am sure Mr. Bakhurst is keenly watching that amount.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am watching it on a weekly basis. It varies from week to week but it is down approximately 30% as a trend.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Does the Department have an up-to-date figure as to where it stands in terms of collections?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Last week it was down 39%.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is that year on year, comparatively?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I have a question for Ms Mullooly. Earlier she made reference to the independent solicitor's office within RTÉ. How is it independent?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The solicitors are independent from the organisation in that the advice they give is independent. RTÉ is the client. We regard ourselves as being independent from the organisation in the context of the advice we give. We are a stand-alone solicitor's office and regulated that way by the Law Society.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who is the employer?

Ms Paula Mullooly

RTÉ.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Who is the answerable line manager within RTÉ?

Ms Paula Mullooly

That is the director general.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How is an office independent if it is employed by an organisation and answerable to the head of the organisation? It is giving advice to the organisation but it is a bit of a stretch to call it completely independent. I would say an independent office is something that has no connection to RTÉ and may be hired or contracted by RTÉ for independent advice. A sub-department of an organisation is not independent of the organisation if it has the same boss and the pay is all done through the organisation that it is answerable to.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I accept that point. When we discuss it ourselves we culturally regard ourselves as very independent within the organisation but I accept the point the Deputy is making.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

From our perspective as the Committee of Public Accounts when we hear "independent office" it sounds like it is coming from a third party when in actual fact, the advice Ms Mullooly is giving, and it is nothing personal to her or to her colleagues, is coming from RTÉ, paid by RTÉ and for RTÉ. It is all RTÉ. Is that right?

Ms Paula Mullooly

That is correct. I suppose it is a cultural way that we regard ourselves within the organisation as being separate and distinct. I fully accept what the Deputy is saying but it is how we would describe ourselves.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The culture within the organisation obviously needs change too, because that is not independent. To my mind, independence is complete separation. It is a department of RTÉ, however it is described internally. From our perspective as a committee, when we invited RTÉ here, in came the director of legal affairs and there was advice from RTÉ's own department. It is the legal department of RTÉ. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I totally accept, as Ms Mullooly does, the financing of it. It is important to say that the legal advice we receive from the solicitors in that office is independent and not influenced by RTÉ. That is their job as professionals. They are all members of the Law Society and that is what I expect from them.

Deputy John Brady

I will start by saying that the way things are done in RTÉ around the culture is why we are here today. To my mind, lessons have not been learned if that is still the line that is being peddled here today around this so-called independent advice, that is, that is the way it has always been done and that is the culture within RTÉ. Lessons clearly have not been learned.

The document from May 2020 is a key piece of information that we have not been furnished with. I think I know why it is been withheld. The public will make up their own minds. This is certainly doing absolutely nothing to restore public confidence in RTÉ. Mr. Bakhurst said the TV licence renewals are down 39%. On foot of this meeting, I think that will further decrease, instead of confidence being restored. This is a critical piece of information. Has the Department seen that key piece of evidence, namely, the document from that Teams meeting? Has the Secretary General requested it?

Ms Katherine Licken

No, we have not.

Deputy John Brady

Has the Minister seen it?

Ms Katherine Licken

No, but the Deputy must understand-----

Deputy John Brady

Has the Minister requested it or seen it?

Ms Katherine Licken

No.

Deputy John Brady

I find that fascinating. RTÉ has essentially come in here and over the last number of weeks has put the begging bowl out asking for a bailout from the taxpayer and from the Government, without this key piece of information. To my mind, without that key piece of information not a penny should be given over to RTÉ because that is the keystone in the evidence that we as the Committee of Public Accounts need.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As I said earlier, of the two people who were at that meeting, that is, Noel Kelly and the director general, Noel Kelly has given his version of that meeting and the director general has also-----

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Bakhurst has said that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not a key piece of evidence. There is no dispute about what Noel Kelly said happened at that meeting and neither did Dee Forbes dispute it in the Grant Thornton report.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. If that is the case, that information should be furnished from that Teams meeting. I find it extraordinary that neither the Department nor the Minister have asked for or received that information either.

Ms Katherine Licken

To restate what I said earlier, by law RTÉ is independent in the operation of its objects as set out in the Broadcasting Act. We do not get involved in the day-to-day operation of RTÉ and nor can we. That is why we do not seek to direct them. The Minister is very clearly on record on multiple occasions saying she expects RTÉ to co-operate as fully as possible and she expects that to continue.

Deputy John Brady

This is about governance, however. It is about oversight. It is about restoring trust within RTÉ, showing that lessons have been learned and we have moved on. Without that openness and transparency coming from RTÉ as regards that critical piece of information, I do not think we are anywhere close to starting that process.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I could just-----

Deputy John Brady

I will move on.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I just come back?

Deputy John Brady

I am sorry Mr. Bakhurst-----

An Cathaoirleach

Hold on. Mr. Bakhurst, very briefly.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not fair to make these wide aspersions on RTÉ. We are working extremely hard to be transparent and open. There is a dispute about one piece of legal information.

Deputy John Brady

Key information.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not key, as I have just said. There is a dispute about this one document and it is an important principle-----

Deputy John Brady

In fairness, that is Mr. Bakhurst's interpretation of it that it is not key. Unfortunately, we do not have the privilege to make that determination because it has been withheld from us. That is the problem.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Deputy to move on to the next question.

Deputy John Brady

I will move on to Richard Collins. I heard what Mr. Bakhurst said earlier about him resigning from the organisation. Was that an amicable separation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was professional.

Deputy John Brady

It was professional. Have legal papers been served on RTÉ by Mr. Collins?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, they have not.

Deputy John Brady

Not yet.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There was an agreement we reached; his legal team were present.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, there was an agreement reached and his legal team were present.

We got the most up-to-date figures on TV licence renewals last week. They were down 39%. What is the net loss? What does that equate to?

Mr. Mike Fives

Our latest estimate, if the trend continues, is €21 million for this year.

Deputy John Brady

It is €21 million, all right. How does the commercial revenue for the year to date compare with last year?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The commercial director is here, so I will bring him in if the Deputy likes.

Mr. Conor Mullen

Commercial revenue is down year on year. The overall market is worth-----

Deputy John Brady

How much is it down?

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is down in single percentage points.

Deputy John Brady

I am sorry, what was that?

Mr. Conor Mullen

Single percentage points.

Deputy John Brady

Is it 9%?

Mr. Conor Mullen

I do not have the exact figure. It is single percentage points.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, so it is just below 10%, which is not an insignificant amount. What does that equate to in cash terms?

Mr. Conor Mullen

I am not going to say that because we are still trading this year and this is the busiest time of our year.

Deputy John Brady

All right, but are we talking about €10 million or €20 million? I am not looking for a specific-----

Mr. Conor Mullen

There are millions.

Deputy John Brady

Millions.

Mr. Conor Mullen

A year-on-year comparison is very difficult to do because we have significant events, and last year was a significant event, at this time of year with the FIFA World Cup and there was significant revenue in that regard. In a market worth about €1.2 billion, 70% of that goes online to global operators and multinationals. In television alone RTÉ competes with over 50 TV stations for advertising.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. I am conscious of the time, so-----

Mr. Conor Mullen

I am aware of that, but it is important to put it into context.

Deputy John Brady

-----does Mr. Mullen envisage that trend continuing for the remainder of the-----

Mr. Conor Mullen

The overall market is trending down in single digits.

Deputy John Brady

All right.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I can add to that, really importantly, we re-forecast earlier in the year because there had been a fall in the commercial revenue. I would say the commercial revenue has been performing strongly over the past few months, so we are ahead of the re-forecast. It is down year on year, but we are in a better position than we were a few months ago.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, and do the officials think the controversy that has unfolded within RTÉ over the last number of months has any impact on commercial activity?

Mr. Conor Mullen

I would like to say our clients and our agencies have been very supportive to us.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

May I add to that?

Deputy John Brady

I ask Mr. Bakhurst to be brief, if he can.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Mr. Mullen and I met a number of our key clients and that is the message from them. They are very supportive. They see RTÉ as an important client and most of all they are ambitious to spend with us, so we have had positive interactions with them.

Deputy John Brady

All right. I return to the €150,000 payment Ryan Tubridy said at this committee he would furnish back. The former chief financial officer, Richard Collins, described it as a potentially fraudulent payment in that invoices were furnished and - we have it in the Grant Thornton report - that the invoices had the description "Consultancy Fees". It is evidenced there that: "'Consultancy Fees did not reflect the substance of the transactions [...] the Talent Agent did not provide consultancy; and ... the Talent did not provide consultancy." That was described as potentially fraudulent by the former chief financial officer, Richard Collins. At this point, as Ryan Tubridy is probably refusing to pay that money back because the renegotiated contract has fallen through, what outside actions has RTÉ taken to recoup that? Has it got further independent legal advice outside the cultural legal advice that is within RTÉ? Has it gone to the Garda about that potential fraud?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I could bring in Ms Mullooly here. It is important to say one of the first questions I asked about this whole issue and transaction was whether we thought it was legally fraud or not. The advice I got quite firmly was that it was not. The second thing is it is really important to say in this regard that RTÉ bears a significant amount of responsibility for this and how it was designed and so on, so whether we can pursue someone externally for it when in the end they had a legal contract to give it to them, putting aside the inaccuracy of the invoices-----

Deputy John Brady

Okay, so at this stage RTÉ is willing to allow that €150,000 to just sail off into the sunset.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not willing to allow it, but I have to operate within legal advice.

Deputy John Brady

I will move on in the last few moments I have.

An Cathaoirleach

Be very brief, Deputy.

Deputy John Brady

On the bogus self-employment, RTÉ has put some of the figures pertaining to settlements with the Revenue on public record. I think €1.2 million was stated. How many employees does that relate to?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Is that the 139?

Mr. Mike Fives

I do not have the number of employees to hand.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Fives does not have that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Those would be the cases we have dealt with so far, but obviously there are hundreds to go.

Deputy John Brady

Can RTÉ provide that to the committee?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can prepare that for it, yes.

Deputy John Brady

There is a further scope exercise being carried out by the Department of Social Protection. How many employees, or former employees, does that scope exercise cover?

Ms Eimear Cusack

The number we have been given is 695.

Deputy John Brady

It is 695.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Some 149 of those are under way at the moment. They would include-----

Deputy John Brady

Okay, and the €20 million that has been set aside-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you Deputy, you are over time.

Deputy John Brady

-----or is earmarked is there to potentially cover some of those 600-odd that are-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is our estimate.

Deputy John Brady

That is RTÉ's estimate.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy John Brady

How much has been set aside?

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has gone over time.

Deputy John Brady

I will conclude on this, Chair. We know a number of workers have been given a month to decide on whether they will accept a payment of €2,500 up to €17,500. I think that is about-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, Deputy. I will allow you in for a second round of questioning. One member of the committee has not got in for the first time yet and neither have I. I will allow a second round.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, but may I just get a response to that?

An Cathaoirleach

No. I will ask Mr. Bakhurst to respond when we have a second round of questioning. Is that all right?

Deputy John Brady

No problem, Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

Moving on to the changes in RTÉ over the past four months, it is recognised there is a big task there. What are the three most significant and tangible changes that have been made in that period?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There are a number of changes, Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. Number 1 is we have a new leadership team, which is driving change. Number 2 is we have a much better working relationship with the board and complete transparency between the leadership team and the board. Number 3 is we have commissioned, and are far advanced on, the register of interests, gifts and so on. It should be in place by the end of the year. Number 4 is we have brought in a risk consultant who sits on the leadership team who is advising us on best practice so we can be best in class on things like risk assessment, which will drive improvement.

An Cathaoirleach

On the register of interests, one document we have mentions it is in the final stages.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

When does Mr. Bakhurst expect that to be completed?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are just finishing consultation with the unions and the management association. It is being drawn up. I spoke to Brian Dowling, who is leading this, yesterday and he expects it will be in place and up and running by the end of the year.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. The officials have heard me say a number of times that I feel it is very important in terms of-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. We are trying to do that as quickly as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

-----public credibility.

On funding, Mr. Bakhurst told the media committee a month ago that "... all of these reforms will be undermined if the question mark over the funding of public service media in this country is not properly resolved". The funding issue is obviously key for this. Mr. Bakhurst mentioned slimming down. Many members of the committee are concerned that there not be compulsory redundancies. I am aware this is a work in progress, but will Mr. Bakhurst briefly explain what funding model he thinks is required, going forward?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I know the funding model is under active consideration by the Department. I think I have said to it, and also to members of the Chair's party, that as far as we are concerned we need a degree of certainty.

We need the right level of funding to deliver our statutory remit. Ease of collection and fairness are the underlying principles I would look for.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there potential to turnaround the declining commercial revenue? At committee meetings over the past three years, this issue of commercial and other potential sources has been raised with RTÉ. I understand it operates in a competitive situation. Are other sources of commercial revenue being examined actively?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Very much so. However, there are no new theatre productions.

An Cathaoirleach

Is anything being done in regard to online platforms?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not online platforms, no, but we are looking at how we can monetise our own online presence in a more effective way. That involves investment in digital product.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. In regard to pay, conditions and entitlements for executives, we discovered a situation a number of weeks ago where executives were paid a 10% increase last year. Was that notified to the Minister?

Ms Katherine Licken

At the time, it was not.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it normally be? It would be expected that it would be.

Ms Katherine Licken

We would have expected that it would have been, yes, but it was not.

An Cathaoirleach

It should have been.

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I am mindful of the fact that this happened in a previous period. That seems like a complete breakdown in terms of reporting. Can anyone tell me whether it reported to the board? Will Mr. Lynch be able to tell me?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am not sure whether it was reported to the board.

Ms Paula Mullooly

It was to audit and risk and the board.

An Cathaoirleach

It went to the appointed board. Has any benchmarking been done in terms of executive pay at RTÉ over the past four months? I am mindful there is a good deal of catching up to be done. However, has that crucial issue been looked at?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We intend to do that before I establish a permanent leadership team in the organisation. We want to benchmark against other semi-State bodies here. We want to get benchmarked against other media organisations and against public service media organisations throughout Europe. We will do that but we have not had the capacity to do it yet. However, that is the intention.

An Cathaoirleach

Obviously, there will be a big ask for money. That is key along with the register of interests. I suggest that issue is fleshed out before that point. In regard to the €0.5 million to 46 people and the allowances, could we have a list of positions held by those 46 people? I do not want names, but want to know whether they are senior executives. Who are they? Obviously, there is an entitlement where people legitimately claim allowances or expenses. However, are they people on the shop floor, or are they executives? Will Mr. Bakhurst rank them in terms of where that category is in RTÉ? Can you do that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can certainly do it. This is an area we need to simplify. There are something like 1,100 allowances in RTÉ, which have grown over the years. That is complicated and unsustainable. It is an area we will look at.

An Cathaoirleach

The discussions today have confirmed that there are voluntary packages for people who leave RTÉ voluntarily. We can take from this morning's discussions that there have been voluntary exit financial packages for executives who left. Mr. Rory Coveney left RTÉ since Mr. Bakhurst was last here. He was obviously part of the team. Would he have received a voluntary exit package?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry but going back to the advice, I cannot talk about individuals. It is set out in the letter why I cannot do that.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Bakhurst confirm that there are voluntary exit packages for executives?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They are not necessarily voluntary.

An Cathaoirleach

If the post is still in existence-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

All I would say is that when you try to change an organisation and need to exit people, there are a number of ways you can do it. They are not always voluntary and sometimes they involve exit payments but we need to weigh that up against-----

An Cathaoirleach

When you ask people to leave, is that when financial packages happen?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It would not necessarily be good one. It is weighing that up against what the costs would be if you dismissed them and had to go through a process.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that. There is obviously an element of negotiation or encouragement.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There are individual discussions with any-----

An Cathaoirleach

If the person goes voluntarily there would be a financial package.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Discussions would take place with the individuals about how they might exit. That is correct. You would expect that.

An Cathaoirleach

We will go to a second round of questions. There is still one member who could arrive yet. I just got the note that he sent his apologies.

I will allow four minutes for each committee member. We have a fairly full attendance. I call Deputy Verona Murphy. I ask people to keep to time because it is unfair to the people coming behind.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Ms Mullooly a registered legal practice?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it an independent legal practice? Do you represent others?

Ms Paula Mullooly

The way it works-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

We do not represent anyone other than RTÉ.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So, she is registered as a legal practice with the Law Society. Does Ms Mullooly have a professional indemnity?

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, we do not need a professional indemnity.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Then to be honest, if professional indemnity is not required, she is not independent of the organisation and as a lawyer, she should know that.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Can I give an example?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not want to discuss it, but it is clear-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

Actually I would like to discuss it. I would like to give the Deputy an answer.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry but Ms Mullooly is here on our terms. Masquerading as an independent legal practice when she does not have independent clients other than RTÉ, it is fair to say she is not an independent-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is entitled to ask a question but not to make charges.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I asked the question. Ms Mullooly answered it. She does not-----

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Mullooly, it is a simple question. Are you-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

It was not a simple question. It was a charge. There were two things there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Excuse me, Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, we are-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Stop the clock if the Cathaoirleach is going to question.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly reply, please. It is wasting time otherwise.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Cathaoirleach, I would like to be given a proper opportunity to respond.

An Cathaoirleach

Please respond.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The Cathaoirleach had better stop the clock, please. I have had the answer I want.

Ms Paula Mullooly

An example of the independent legal advice we give would be in terms of this when it first broke. Independent solicitors within RTÉ would have given advice to the newsroom in regard to its coverage of this, in an independent way. That is what I mean when I say we are independent solicitors. We do not act as-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is a fudge in regard to what it bears witness to, which is the release of a document where client privilege can be waived by Mr. Bakhurst. Now, I will ask again. I started this morning on the basis of Mr. Bakhurst's assertion that Mr. Tubridy had a moral obligation to repay the money. Everybody on this committee agrees with me. We represent the public. That is a fair percentage of what is being represented here today. There is a fair representation of public opinion here today. Everyone agrees that Mr. Bakhurst and RTÉ, as an organisation, refusing to waive legal privilege goes directly to its credibility when he says that he is trying to be transparent and doing everything he can. Has he reconsidered his position from this morning? Is he prepared to give the document to the committee before we have to compel it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have a responsibility to the organisation to protect the integrity and editorial independence of the organisation. That is what I will do. I have heard-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does that mean Mr. Bakhurst has not changed his mind?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have answered the Deputy's question.

Deputy Verona Murphy

He has not changed his mind.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have not changed my mind.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not finished, Chair. I have another minute. In that meeting, there were four people, Dee Forbes, Noel Kelly and his colleague, Niamh, and Trish Whelan from the RTÉ legal department. On what basis is Mr. Bakhurst claiming legal privilege? What capacity did Trish Whelan hold? What advice was she giving?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ms Whelan was the solicitor present, so I am claiming it on the grounds of solicitor confidentiality to client. That is an important principle-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The client no longer-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I believe the people watching this committee will understand that is an important principle and I need to protect RTÉ's independence.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Going back to his moral obligation, Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly came before this committee and waived their privilege. Mr. Bakhurst was the very person who asserted Ryan Tubridy's moral obligation, yet he is failing to assert his own.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am asserting my own-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

On the record, he is saying that he does not have a moral obligation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not saying that. I am saying my moral obligation is to the public, to protect the independence and integrity of RTÉ and that is what I am doing.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can the director general confirm that RTÉ will publish information on the top ten presenters on an annual basis?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has RTÉ published the 2022 figures?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, because they are still being audited. I asked about that recently. The figures are still being audited to ensure we can publish them accurately.

Deputy Alan Dillon

When does Mr. Bakhurst expect those figures to be published?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They will be published as soon as the auditors are done. There is a more robust process in the light of previous events, so the auditors need to go to the individuals and make sure there is a fair representation of what they have found. They are going through that process.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Bakhurst have a timeline?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, but I can provide that. I will have to ask the auditors where they are on that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In regard to the extent of brand deals involving RTÉ presenters, particularly those engaged with valuable assets like cars and others of significant monetary value, what procedures and guidelines has RTÉ put in place? What is the level in terms of those who are engaged in this activity? Has RTÉ done any investigation in this regard?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have looked through it as far as we can. The key thing is there will be really clear guidelines around the register of interests and the register of gifts as we go forward. That will all be published and in the public domain. The only way to maintain trust is to make sure that where people working for RTÉ take money from outside RTÉ, that information is put in the public domain.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The policies are currently being reviewed. Have any policies been implemented and has information on the level of deals currently in place with top presenters been accrued?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Mr. Lynch has looked across the retrospective information and is going through departments.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Mr. Lynch provide information on that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

We did a full review of all the individuals and what was involved. It really demonstrated that there was a consistency across the organisation. That is why the two key things that are now being introduced are a register of interests and a register of external affairs. Our employee handbook applies to both staff members and contractors. They could be people who present a programme that runs for only two to four weeks. It is about communicating to all those individuals to ensure everybody is absolutely clear on the requirements. As the director general said, we will publish that information.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Have any of those findings created a conflict of interest?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Deputy Kelly asked about information for all Friday and Saturday nights. We went back through all of those figures since 2001 and there were no conflicts of interest. It is important to say that the tripartite agreement involving a presenter is completely unique.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In regard to the car deals that were subsequently highlighted, have many top presenters given back those cars as a result of Mr. Lynch's investigation?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

There was only one such instance and that car was returned.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The note we have been discussing has become a bigger issue than it should be. In essence, I see RTÉ protecting an internal Chinese wall. It looks like a ring fence or brick wall is being put around RTÉ. That is the difficulty here. I asked how the legal office was advising "Prime Time" about a Government measure that was taken. I can understand why the witnesses would defend editorial independence. I would support them on that in many cases. However, it appears they do not contest anything to do with the facts around this that everybody knows. Our concern is that there are facts we do not know. The only guarantee that there is nothing of concern in this is by way of the witnesses telling us to trust them. The difficulty with that is they are coming to the table having created a trust gap. We are asking for the document and the witnesses are saying there is nothing contentious in it. It seems to me they are creating more of an issue out of this than there needs to be. There is an opportunity to create trust by showing us there is nothing in the document. If there is nothing in the document, show it to us. Doing so does not create a principle on which future committees might interrogate the independence of RTÉ. It would be silly of the witnesses to die on that hill. However, it is a matter for them in terms of their credibility and willingness to build trust. They are saying to us: "Trust us, there is nothing in it." We are here because we cannot trust them. That is a sad situation for everybody involved. I urge the witnesses to make the document available and save the committee, our internal Oireachtas processes, RTÉ, the courts and anybody else who might get involved the possibility of further action. I ask the witnesses to provide the document. If it says what they say it says, there is no issue.

Going back to editorial independence, Deputy Dillon is correct that a register of outside interests is really important. There is also the issue of monetising RTÉ's corporate intellectual property. One of the most worrying elements of the tripartite agreement was that a third party was allowed to monetise the corporate intellectual property of RTÉ, namely, the hugely respected "The Late Late Show" branding and so on. Have any measures been put in place around how employees and contractors might leverage the position they have within RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That will be in the guidance we issue. For example, presenters will not be able to make videos on RTÉ premises if they are for commercial reasons. There will be more clarity in that regard.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

When is that guidance expected?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It will be there before the end of the year. Some of it will be in place before the end of the year.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As a politician, it might arise that I am asked questions by an RTÉ presenter about vulture funds, REITs and so on and it subsequently turns out that the presenter has a relationship with somebody in that sector. I am not saying anybody has such a relationship but it is a good example of how it is really important for the public to know what is involved in external contracts.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I totally agree with the Deputy. It is one of the reasons I decided to push ahead with this. The only thing I would say, and it is really important to say it, is that when we looked at practices across the organisation, we found the news and current affairs department already does this to an extremely high level. It is about bringing the rest of the organisation to a similar level.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have no doubt that 99% of people in RTÉ have that integrity.

I would like a response on the issue of foreign travel. The witnesses will have seen the story about Donie O'Sullivan and the decision to cancel his appearance. While that involved a tiny amount of money, it would seem to contest their idea that there are cost savings happening within RTÉ. Will one of the witnesses respond on that point?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can answer that. Unfortunately, these things happen on live programmes, with changes in the cast and so on. It is very annoying in the current circumstances that we paid for an airfare and cannot get it back. It should be noted that "The Late Late Show" has its own budget for the series. If money is spent on airfares, savings must be found somewhere else. There are controls around the programme. If this kind of decision is made, the saving must be found somewhere else.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have only four minutes and I have forgotten one of my questions. We have been told that a small number of senior executive posts were not advertised. Will the witnesses indicate which roles were not advertised and the reasons for that?

I have three other points. I accept what the witnesses have said in regard to the McCann FitzGerald report. I know they would prefer it to be done today because there is no way they want to be back here in a month's time.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would rather be talking about that today.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I accept that and I accept the premise upon which that report must be awaited and that the issues cannot be prejudged.

My second question, before getting to the famous note, relates to bogus self-employment. I do not think €20 million will come within an ass's roar of what is required. Based on the current payments that have been made, the entitlements people have lost, the whole range of other compensations that will be required because of the cumulative nature of what people were entitled to being lost and the number of people we have been told are involved, it will not come anywhere near it. Mr. Fives and his colleagues need to have a plan over a longer period to deal with this.

Turning to the famous note, Mr. Bakhurst has been doing a very good job. I was very disappointed with the initial interaction today. It was too confrontational, reflecting on what I have said about the legal advice and so on. My colleagues, Deputy Burke, who has legal qualifications, and Deputies Devlin, McAuliffe and Verona Murphy have articulated the matter much better than I could.

This issue is getting out of hand. The idea that there is independent legal advice within RTÉ is rubbish. Everyone has proven that. We have legal advice here, but it is not independent of the Oireachtas. We are all part of the Oireachtas. We need to find a way out of this because if this ends up in the courts, imagine a situation where we are trying to explain to the public that we are spending taxpayers' money on both sides to try to get a note which, potentially if you accept all the commentary on it, may not be that big an issue at all. There is a principle from our side: we, on behalf of the public, need to have trust so we need to see it.

There is a precedent. I have twice been a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. I am offering a compromise or a way out. At the end of my suggestion, I will ask Mr. Bakhurst if he will consider it. Rather than jumping in and saying he will not, he might just consider it. We have had precedents in this committee where there has been documentation that we required where we have gone into private session to meet with people and have gone through the documentation without publishing it. That is one option.

Another option is that we leverage it through the Department but we as a committee work with the Department if it is brought in by RTÉ in regard to this. Part of this, which I am very surprised at, is that Mr. Bakhurst has not read it or seen it himself. First, will Mr. Bakhurst please look at it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Second, will he work with this committee, whether on my two suggestions or the suggestions of others, so that we do not all end up wasting a lot of taxpayers' money potentially for nothing? They are my two questions to Mr. Bakhurst.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. The answer to the first is yes, I will read it. The answer to the second one is, yes of course I will look at solutions.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Will Mr. Bakhurst work with us to find a solution?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No one in this room would like to find a solution to this more than me. It is tricky but I will happily look at possible solutions.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Okay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to ask about the remuneration committee. Does the remit of the new remuneration committee cover the issue of redundancy?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes it does.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did the previous one cover the issue of redundancy?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not know.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I was going to make some of the same points as Deputy Kelly. Does Mr. Bakhurst accept the findings of the second Grant Thornton report?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. That is straightforward.

In regard to the barter account, we were told previously that the principles of honesty and integrity were central to how that fund was conducted by the particular individuals. Then we found there were no thresholds for gifts and entertainment. There were 1,400 emails and it was quite chaotic. Could Mr. Bakhurst give us a note on that because that is something we will want to deal with it in the context of our report?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Just to clarify, a note on how it is currently run or-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Those things. For example, if there are changes in regard to the current situation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. We can give the committee a note on exactly what changes were made to the barter account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Including things like whether there are thresholds.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is no spend now in the barter account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay, right. Could Mr. Bakhurst explain in the note how it is constructed now?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will give the committee the details of how it is done now. It is very straightforward now.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish to ask about the Department of Social Protection's scope section. I also have concerns about the adequacy of the amount of the contingency. How was that figure arrived at? It looks like a very round figure.

Mr. Mike Fives

That is not the number. There is a detailed analysis of the various pools of staff and people and there are management assumptions placed into that so it is a very detailed file. The auditors have gone through it at year end as well. It is by person.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does it relate to every one of the 695?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes. They are separated into various categories and then a provision is arrived at based on what categories the people are in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Fives says that is not the amount. What is the amount?

Mr. Mike Fives

We are not going to give the exact figure.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is less than €20 million.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right. That is okay. Is Mr. Fives satisfied that that is sufficient?

Mr. Mike Fives

It is our best understanding.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I could say something, because I have been involved a bit in the scope process – not to my pleasure - some of the appeals are pathfinder cases and they will set a precedent so we need to keep this under review. The auditors keep an eye on it. We will adjust it depending on what some of the outcomes are to those cases.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Bakhurst says it is very time heavy for RTÉ.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, there are dedicated people and it is requires a huge amount of resources.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How many?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Three.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that three who are working exclusively on it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is three out of how many in HR?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Three out of 20.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How many cases have they gone through?

Ms Eimear Cusack

It is 149.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Some 149 cases have been dealt with and there are still 695 remaining. Has Ms Cusack calculated how long more this will take?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Fifteen years.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The total is 695 and we have already gone through and reported on 149.

Ms Eimear Cusack

That is since September 2020. As Deputy Murphy knows, the scope section can go back in history as far as it wishes, so it is going back to the 1980s in some cases and the 1990s. We are obviously trying to find details on people.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there people working in RTÉ since the 1980s?

Ms Eimear Cusack

There are people who have left RTÉ. There are a number of cohorts. There are people who have left RTÉ and who have approached the scope section themselves. There are people who are in RTÉ who might have been contractors at one point during their tenure, who are now employees.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does RTÉ accept that at least some of these staff were bogusly labelled as self-employed?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, I would not. I would be very honest in how I would respond. Since we began the Eversheds process, this is a really complicated process because, in truth, every individual has his or her own unique set of circumstances. I have seen it all now. We are working through it and we are co-operating with the scope section and hopefully we will do the right thing.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I just want to come back on the point about €20 million being set aside for Revenue. Am I correct in saying that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not for Revenue, and it is less than €20 million.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Who is it for then?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is for provision against the scope payments.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right. So it will be whatever the Department says RTÉ owes Revenue. RTÉ has already paid €1.2 million.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As we go through individual cases, we then pay the PRSI.

Deputy Imelda Munster

So RTÉ has not set aside anything for workers.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

This is for the workers.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I refer to compensation for workers who were denied pension entitlements, holiday pay and sick pay. Is there no pot set aside for that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, there is not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ has set aside just under €20 million for Revenue. By setting that aside, and given the fact that RTÉ has already paid €1.2 million, Mr. Bakhurst accepts that a wrong was done and there is a possibility that RTÉ will have to pay Revenue at least €20 million or upwards of that. That is only going from 2021.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Hopefully it will be under €20 million, but yes, that is what we have estimated.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If we go back through the decades the cost will multiply. What annoys me is that money is set aside for Revenue, because legally RTÉ will have to pay it. It is taxpayers' money. Not a cent has been set aside for the workers who have been misclassified, going back decades, who have lost out on entitlements. There was no shortage of money for exit packages paid to some people who were not even entitled to them, yet there is no money set aside for workers who are entitled to it, yet this is the new RTÉ. When one thinks about it, it is hard to credit how unjust that is. We are expected to accept that this is a new RTÉ and that is still the thinking: that it can screw the workers, take them to court, fight them all the way, pay taxpayers' money, go into the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, bring Arthur Cox – it does not matter how much that costs - RTÉ will fight the workers all the way when they are the ones that have been hard done by. I am just going to leave that there as the new RTÉ thinking.

I have two other very brief questions. We spoke before about GAAGO and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, investigating the fact that initially, permission was given to put games outside of Ireland behind a paywall. Now it seems that RTÉ is operating the paywall within the island of Ireland. That is despite the fact that the approval given by the CCPC, states five times that it is for outside of Ireland. The previous time I raised this, Mr. Bakhurst stated that he had received legal advice saying that further clearance was not required. Was that in-house legal advice or legal advice from outside of RTÉ? Could we please be furnished with the legal advice because when I spoke to the CCPC last I was told there is no decision and it is still actually working on it?

We would be interested to see the legal advice that RTÉ was furnished with, whether it was in-house or independent outside advice, where it was stated that clearance was not required for RTÉ to operate a paywall inside the island of Ireland.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ms Mullooly is across this in detail.

Ms Paula Mullooly

The advice is external legal advice. The CCPC has asked questions and I think we have clarified in the responses to the committee that we have answered those questions and we are waiting to hear back from them further in relation to that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I know that because I dealt with it. What I asked was whether RTÉ can furnish us with the legal advice that said it was not doing anything wrong and that further clearance was not required.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No. That is covered by legal advice privilege and we will be maintaining the privilege over that advice.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What we are hearing all of the time is "legal advice privilege". This is something that could be cleared up. If RTÉ got outside legal advice and there is nothing to hide, it should furnish it. Did RTÉ furnish it to the CCPC?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It is a commercial joint venture.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But did RTÉ furnish it to the CCPC?

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, we would not furnish our legal advice to the CCPC but we have engaged with the CCPC.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I know RTÉ has engaged with it on its request, but it did not furnish it-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

We were never asked for it and the commission would not ask for it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ did not furnish the commission with the outside legal advice that said no further clearance was required. RTÉ did not use that as an argument to say “We got outside legal advice that no further clearance is required”. RTÉ did not produce that document to the CCPC.

Ms Paula Mullooly

It would not ask for it and we would not provide it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did RTÉ mention to the commission that it had it?

Ms Paula Mullooly

It would have known. It would have engaged with our external lawyers.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy’s time is up.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a final question. Is there anybody among the RTÉ board members who currently holds ownership, directorship or shares in independent production companies?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the board?

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, the executive board.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There are people from independent producers on the board, deliberately so.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Would Mr. Bakhurst see a conflict of interest in that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They would step out of the room if there is any conflict of interest. I have never seen any evidence of that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Of the executive board, who would have either managing directorship-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I am sorry to interrupt. It is not the executive board; it is on the main board that people may have outside commercial interests.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is there anyone currently who is a director of a particular part of RTÉ who would-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is no one on the leadership team, to my knowledge.

An Cathaoirleach

On the management team.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the management team, who are responsible for making the decisions in terms of independent commissioning.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Absolutely no one. You are sure of that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No one.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. We will come back to that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am not sure we have achieved what I had hoped we would achieve today, which is the staunching of the flow of blood, particularly in terms of the TV licence fee. I do not think anybody wants to see more damage inflicted on an organisation that we have all publicly said is so important in terms of its public service remit.

I have what is perhaps a niche question. I had a question at one of the previous meetings, and I do not know if it was Mr. Lynch or Mr. Collins who replied to me. I asked whether the treatment of the invoices was tax-compliant or not because there was, essentially, funny business around the invoices; they were paid in a different jurisdiction and the reason they were paid out is not what was said on the tin. I was told at the time that that was being looked into to establish whether there was any tax liability arising. Has that work been completed and are we tax-compliant?

Mr. Mike Fives

Yes, we are tax-compliant. We have added that back and we have taken no deduction from our corporation tax for those invoices.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Very good, we have that at least. I will return to the topic that Deputy Dillon was addressing. If you are a top presenter in RTÉ, a lot of your attractiveness to companies derives from the fact you have a profile that comes from RTÉ. I hope it would be relatively straightforward in respect of direct employees to apply things like a register of interests or a gifts register. On product placement, I know RTÉ has strict rules around that and it seems to be content that they are being implemented. Things like brand ambassador roles may be a little more difficult because they exist outside of RTÉ. I want to ask how watertight that is going to be. In particular, how many of the top RTÉ presenters are now freelance presenters and how many are direct employees?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I could not give an exact figure but it is a significant number of contractors.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is it more difficult to apply to things like brand ambassador roles?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, it is. The reality is that, particularly on services like 2FM, we recruit people because they have a profile on, say, social media to bring in that audience. We need to be clear and transparent about what they are allowed or not allowed to do, and we will publish what they do. However, we need to be realistic that we bring them in because they bring a following from social media in some cases.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Yes, and it is a two-way street because RTÉ is the biggest show in town.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is. They benefit from that, and that is reflected in how much we pay them.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

When those arrangements come to be renegotiated, are we establishing guidelines that are going to tighten up all of these areas?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, the guidelines will be published at the end of the year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

At the moment, we have an interim leadership team. I have concerns. The person who cut the most forlorn figure in all of this was actually Siún Ní Raghallaigh. I felt very badly for the board because they were left in the dark for an enormous amount of this and were not properly informed. We have this interim leadership team. My concern is, first, when are we going to move past that and when are we going to reconstitute - I do not know if we are going to call it an executive board, or whether there is going to be a difference in language-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is just the leadership team.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A leadership team. Can Mr. Bakhurst tell me about the communication pathways that he is planning to put in place to make sure this leadership team does not become, essentially, a silo decision-making area, which is what had happened, and reports more directly to the board? An ordinary board member-----

An Cathaoirleach

We might let Mr. Bakhurst reply to that clear question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has been really important and has been a priority for me and for Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make sure there is proper communication. The board members who appeared at the other committee confirmed there was a much greater degree of transparency and discussion about key decisions. There are a few things. First, I do a written director general's report to the board for every board meeting, which I do not think was the case before, as it was a verbal update. There is now a full written report of several pages. We have a discussion about the key areas that feature in that, and I try to make sure that the key decisions are in that report and can be fully discussed. The second thing is that we attach to that the minutes of all of the leadership meetings, so for anything I have not mentioned, they can see it is minuted from the leadership meetings.

There is a degree of openness now. The current company secretary, Ms Mullooly, is also the head of legal and sits on the board but also sits on the leadership team, so she is a conduit as well, but there is an absolute move towards greater transparency. The Deputy is certainly right that key to some of the issues that RTÉ has had is that not enough was presented to the board or challenged at the board, or not enough information was made available to them. We have put in place a lot of measures to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

It was one of the big failures, and I think we would agree on that. I call Deputy Brady, who I had to stop earlier as he was over time.

Deputy John Brady

I want to return to that issue of bogus self-employment, going right back to the Eversheds review and the 157 who were deemed to be akin to staff of RTÉ. Some 82 of those 157 were offered contracts with RTÉ, although I think only 79 took that up. It has been reported that an offer has been made and this is outside the €1.2 million settlement with Revenue and the Department of Social Protection. A settlement of between €2,500 and €17,500 has been offered to those employees. Is that right?

Ms Eimear Cusack

At the end of the Eversheds process, we agreed this with the trade union group. One of the last governing principles was that at the end of the process, for those who had been involved in Eversheds, we would sit down to look at any residual issues, including any matters relating to retrospection, and that was the deal.

Deputy John Brady

Sorry, I am conscious of time. Of those 79, I think they were given a month to make a decision as to whether they would accept that payment or not. Is that right?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes, it was a-----

Deputy John Brady

That month is due to expire.

Ms Eimear Cusack

No, it was all done last October.

Deputy John Brady

How many of those 79 agreed to that?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Over 80%.

Deputy John Brady

For the 20% who did not, have they been escalated to the WRC or what is the position?

Ms Eimear Cusack

There is one down in the WRC so far.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have met a number of those individuals who did not agree and who felt they were not properly treated, and there may be other cases. I said to them that if they feel they have a case, they are totally at liberty to use the WRC or the courts, obviously, to challenge the outcome of that mediated process.

Deputy John Brady

Returning to the scope review and the 695 cases, it is astonishing and shameful to say that that process is going to take 15 years.

Ms Eimear Cusack

That was my own assessment, given where we are now.

Deputy John Brady

Fifteen years. The cases go back to the 1980s.

Ms Eimear Cusack

Some of them go back to the 1980s.

Deputy John Brady

That is a 40-year timeframe. I imagine a lot of the people who were part of that review have retired. I imagine some have-----

Ms Eimear Cusack

There is one person who had retired. He had been in employment in the 1970s and he brought his own case for a particular adjudication. In the main, when you look at the contractor pool, these are people who are providing services to RTÉ but not necessarily full time. They could have a contract for a year but they are drawn in for particular projects. They were the groupings that were brought in. The review includes people who are currently employed but who were contractors before, people who have left and people who became employees as part of the Eversheds process. They were brought under the auspices of the Department's scope section. In the main, I think one or two cases date back to the 1980s and there are a number from the 1990s.

Deputy John Brady

According to the analysis carried out, this review could take 15 years. It is totally unacceptable that we are looking at individuals here who have retired. Some have passed away and I am sure that over the next 15 years a number of those, given the nature of life-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I just-----

Deputy John Brady

-----will pass away without having their entitlements or potential entitlements being addressed or properly acknowledged. That 15-year estimate is totally unacceptable.

Ms Eimear Cusack

It is basically-----

An Cathaoirleach

Let Mr. Bakhurst respond.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I agree with the Deputy. It is a ridiculously long time. I have had meetings with the Department of Social Protection and we are going to have further meetings to see if there is any way we can accelerate some of that.

Deputy John Brady

I think it needs to be accelerated dramatically-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The Deputy is right, for lots of reasons.

Deputy John Brady

-----to avoid having staff within RTÉ or, indeed, the Department of Social Protection engaged in a process for 15 years.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The difficulty is there is no overall deal that we can do because these are all individual cases that have to be gone through. It is very time-consuming.

An Cathaoirleach

It is important for us to hear, from Mr. Bakhurst's point of view, that he is anxious for this process to be moved along.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would very much like that.

An Cathaoirleach

It is good to hear that. I have a couple of questions around the issue of agents before we finish. It is fair to say it is an issue that has come up. It has been one of the problematic issues, among a large number of issues, that have arisen at RTÉ. Have new procedures been put in place for dealing with agents?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, there are new procedures. I am not meeting directly with a number of agents. There are new procedures around contracts whereby the contracts have to come through the full leadership team and then they have to go to the remuneration committee.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine. Mr. Bakhurst's second point is absolutely clear to me. I want to tease out the first part of his response. He said he is not meeting with some agents. Does that mean that as director general he will meet with some other agents?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It depends. I bump into them.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not having negotiations directly with them. The negotiations are done by the finance department and the legal department.

An Cathaoirleach

Everything has to be signed off and any contract has to be signed off by the leadership team.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Everything has to be signed off properly, yes. I should state clearly - and it is really important - that there is now a single contract for presenters. There are no side letters. Everything is included in the contract and everything will be reported annually.

An Cathaoirleach

We will not have a situation where a director general basically rubber-stamps a deal, using their authority. Is that correct? The chief financial officer-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry, the big contracts do come to me for approval, but I would absolutely not do it on a solo run.

An Cathaoirleach

Obviously, Mr. Bakhurst said that he goes through them. To be clear, my point is that he will not be taking that decision alone. It is a shared decision.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

All I can say, on the small number of presenter contracts that have been signed since I have been here, is that there has been a very robust discussion with the board and the remuneration committee.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Some changes have been noticed. I do not want to personalise this, and I am not referring to any particular contract, but obviously there may be an agent or agents who are handling a number of people, top presenters or significant figures in RTÉ. Has Mr. Bakhurst given thought to or put anything in place in terms of not allowing an agent to have undue influence by virtue of the fact that they represent a significant number of presenters, stars or talent?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It would be ideal if they did not.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Bakhurst see the risk?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I totally see the risk.

An Cathaoirleach

He can see a risk in future.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I see the risk, but it is also out of our control. This is a commercial world and individuals can choose to sign up to agents or not. The really important thing is that presenters are clear about the advantages or disadvantages involved if they sign up with an agent or not.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Mr. Bakhurst actively encouraging the situation where presenters or talent, as they are referred to at times, can negotiate directly with RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would encourage that, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is not fair for us to cut agents out. They have an important role, particularly for things like the actors on "Fair City".

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is not an overall-----

An Cathaoirleach

Football players and others use agents.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Correct.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that RTÉ does not control all the levers, but it is an issue of concern.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The dominance of individual agents is a concern for me.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That concludes our questioning. I know there have been some robust exchanges back and forward. Before we conclude, I wish to state that nobody was questioning the professional integrity or the professionalism of the legal services at RTÉ. There is a difference of opinion. At the start of the meeting, I said that I and other members have disagreed with RTÉ's decision not to release the note dated 7 May 2020. I ask the witnesses to reflect on that. I think there is a credibility issue with it. I do not want to reopen an argument over it but for me, there is a big credibility issue in terms of the reasons given for the decision. In one of the last exchanges Ms Mullooly said that it is a point of principle. I am quoting directly what she said. She referred to a point of principle. There is a point of credibility here for RTÉ overall. This should not be allowed in terms of the significant changes that are happening and the further changes to come. I know there is a myriad of examinations and investigations that are yet to conclude. It is daunting, to say the least, looking at it. That one issue should not be allowed to cloud everything else. In the interest of transparency, the legal team and the management should look at that decision again. I am asking them not to close the door on it. I think it would be helpful from RTÉ's point of view and to us in the Oireachtas because the Government will have to sign a cheque here. That should be borne in mind. I say that in a constructive way.

I thank the witnesses and staff at RTÉ and those in the Department under Ms Licken for the work involved in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank Ms Colette Drinan and the staff of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for attending and assisting the committee today.

Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from today's meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings for today's meeting? Agreed.

I wish RTÉ well with its work. It is full steam ahead with it. We will resume in public session at 2 p.m. to deal with correspondence and other committee business. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.58 p.m. and resumed at 2.01 p.m.