COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2023

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The minutes of our meeting of 5 October 2023 have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee's web page.

The next item to be dealt with is accounts and financial statements. Three sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas between 2 and 6 October 2023. I ask Ms Drinan to address these before opening them up for discussion.

Ms Colette Drinan

The first set of accounts relates to the Heritage Council for the financial year 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

The next set of accounts relates to An Bord Pleanála for the financial year 2022. It also received a clear audit opinion but, as in the previous year, attention was drawn to a couple of issues outlined by the board in the statement of internal control. The first issue was in respect of the status of a number of ongoing reviews and reports regarding matters of serious concern which arose in 2022 about the board's operations. The second area relates to penalty payments that were incurred by the board in the three-year period from 2021 to 2023. These related to delays in decision-making on strategic housing development applications.

The third set of accounts relates to the Ombudsman for Children's Office for the financial year 2022. It received a clear audit opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

A number of matters of serious concern arose in 2022 with regard to An Bord Pleanála's operation. There have been well publicised reviews and reports. The statement outlines the status of these reviews. The only other issue of note is the penalties incurred by the board in 2021, 2022 and 2023 relating to delays. We may bring An Bord Pleanála before the committee again. Does any member wish to comment or ask a question on the accounts and financial statements? Are the accounts and financial statements agreed? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

Moving to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee's meetings and published on the committee's web page.

We have one item of correspondence for discussion. No. R2168C is from Ms Breda O'Keeffe and dated 6 October. It sets out Ms O'Keeffe's reasons for declining the invitation to attend today's meeting with RTÉ. Ms O'Keeffe attended a meeting of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media in July 2023 and also provided a written statement to this committee. It is important to state that she has not appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts. Ms O'Keeffe states in the correspondence that as she has no more to add to her evidence to the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media on the Grant Thornton review and she respectfully declines the invitation. Does any member wish to address this correspondence? As no one does, that concludes our consideration of correspondence.

Members have been circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which is displayed on screen. Next week we will engage with Children's Health Ireland on its 2021 financial statements and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board on its latest financial statements.

On 26 October, we will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on its 2022 appropriation accounts. The delivery of social housing by local authorities and the funding and governance of Uisce Éireann have been flagged as specific areas of interest and representatives of Uisce Éireann and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities have been requested to attend with the Department. I have a suggestion for this meeting and I would like to hear the opinions of members. I do not think it will work if we try to deal with housing delivery and Uisce Éireann and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities on one day. To have satisfactory discussions we need to split this into two sessions.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not agree.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Murphy is happy enough to deal with everything in one session.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We have to have Uisce Éireann come before the committee to counteract what might be said about the delays in providing social housing. Often the utility companies are blamed so they will need to be here.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Murphy suggests we try to deal with the whole lot on 26 October. Does any member disagree? Deputy Murphy has made a valid point on having all of the organisations in the room at the same time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If not, one will make an excuse over the other.

An Cathaoirleach

We will need to keep the list short because otherwise it would dilute the engagement. We should keep it to funding and governance issues for Uisce Éireann, questions that come up for the Commission for Regulation of Utilities and housing delivery for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. That is the main part of our focus.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We also have to have accountability for the central funding of local authorities. It is a €6 billion fund. We are intent on discussing moving accountability to the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is the premise for the discussion, if the Cathaoirleach recalls.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, it is with regard to bringing them under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. There is the local government auditor and other entities.

On 9 November, it is proposed that we meet with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications to discuss chapter 8 of the report of the accounts of the public services on the performance of certain residential retrofit schemes.

On 16 November, it is proposed that we engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on its appropriation accounts for 2022, chapter 5 of the report of the accounts of the public services and the format and content of the appropriation accounts.

On 23 November, it is proposed that we meet again with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to examine chapter 11 on the utilisation of the land aggregation scheme.

On 30 November, it is proposed that we meet with the Department of Finance to discuss its 2022 appropriation accounts and the relevant chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. Generally speaking, we bring the Department of Finance and Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform before the committee in the latter part of the year after the budget, for obvious reasons. It is also because the Comptroller and Auditor General will have the audits done. Do members wish to comment on the work programme up to 30 November?

Are members happy with that? We will keep it under review. It is a work in progress, pardon the pun.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If anything comes up, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is it. It is agreed. That concludes our consideration of the work programme.

The last item on the agenda for today is any other business. Do members wish to raise any other matter?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not sure whether I may raise an issue relating to this morning's session with RTÉ.

An Cathaoirleach

You may, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is the issue of compellability. Although we have given an option to Mr. Bakhurst and RTÉ with regard to whether they produce the documents, we should move on and make our arrangements while we wait. If there is a satisfactory resolution, that is well and good, but we need to move on with the process for public confidence. We will see what happens in the interim.

An Cathaoirleach

The next step in that regard is to notify the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight of our request and await its decision on it.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The Secretary General stated the Minister was very strong on ensuring transparency and accountability. In that context, I suggest that we write to the chair of the board to seek assurances regarding the nature of the note and that the board make a decision on its publication for this committee. I have not heard from the chair of the board regarding its position. Ultimately, the director general of RTÉ is accountable to the board. Should we write to the board to convey our strong feeling on this matter? The Minister has appointed the chair of the board and the Minister wants there to be transparency. There is a conflict in the context of what we heard today from Mr. Bakhurst.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

After the session this morning, there are many people wondering to where the Committee of Public Accounts goes next. We have been focused in our contributions to date in terms of chronicling what happened, putting together a report and making recommendations. We still have a significant amount of work to do on those elements and the evidence given today will allow us to complete significant parts of the report. We should go ahead with the secretariat to do that and not delay any further in that regard. Unless there is a speedy resolution to the issue of the note, however, we should move to request compellability from the Oireachtas. That process will take time. It is important that RTÉ know the committee is united in seeking compellability in respect of that document and is willing to make the request of our Oireachtas colleagues. That would also give RTÉ the opportunity to respond in a flexible way as was suggested earlier. Having participated in the session this morning, the witnesses who were present will surely reflect on the fact that an internal principle should not trump the importance of public trust in RTÉ.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the key point. I mentioned in my remarks this morning to two of the management team of RTÉ that we were of a mind to move to compellability now if production of the document was refused today. We have a proposal. I do not wish to misrepresent the Deputies. Deputy McAuliffe is saying that if it is not resolved in a speedy manner, we move to compel.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

My view is that we should move to compel in any case.

Deputy Verona Murphy

In any case.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. I wanted to clarify that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We should also explore all possible options with the director general to try to avoid that scenario.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I concur with Deputy McAuliffe or he concurs with me, whichever. I respect what Deputy Dillon is saying but we are already in a scenario where the chair has agreed, in front of the committee, to give us something that RTÉ is withholding and he is going to have a conversation about that, but we do not have time to waste. Our timeline does not allow for all this. We have the Hallowe'en break to consider. We should plough on and we can halt that process at any stage if there is agreement from RTÉ.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That was the unanimous view of the committee when we met yesterday.

Deputy Verona Murphy

In addition, we do not want people coming in here thinking all they have to do is kick the can down the road and the committee will run out of time.

An Cathaoirleach

I am very concerned about the timeline. With that in mind and given that we are coming up to the back end of the year, we should now seek powers of compellability. If Ms Ní Raghallaigh, the chair of RTÉ, can help us in this regard while this is taking place, that would be helpful. We also asked the management team to keep the decision under review and to reconsider it when they were going out the door. We made that clear to them. If there is a change of heart there, so be it, but, in any case, we need to move ahead with seeking-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If we take RTÉ on face value that, to use an American phrase, there is no there there, and there is nothing in this note, that could be the outcome, whether by compellability or otherwise. Either way, we are in a strong position to start to draw together the key strands of the report-----

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

-----in order that we do not run out of time. The secretariat has done a significant job on our behalf in puling all that together. The committee may require a number of meetings in private session to start drafting and amending that report.

An Cathaoirleach

We have the scoping document and the additions to it from our discussion yesterday. As the Deputy stated, we will need to hold more meetings to try to frame that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We should bear in mind that if the report in respect of the redundancies is finalised, we will probably need to have the representatives of RTÉ back in immediately. That report is expected at the end of October.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it agreed that we proceed with seeking to compel this document and notify the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight in that regard? Agreed. Are there any other matters members wish to raise under any other business? Okay. The meeting stands adjourned until Thursday, 19 October, when we will meet representatives of Children's Health Ireland and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. We have substantial work to do in that regard. I thank members and staff.

The committee adjourned at 2.18 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19 October 2023.