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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 25 Apr 2024

Financial Statements 2022: Inland Fisheries Ireland

Dr. Cathal Gallagher (Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Inland Fisheries Ireland) called and examined.

We have received apologies from Deputy Verona Murphy. All in attendance are very welcome. I remind everyone to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we have officials from Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications in attendance to examine the financial statements 2022 of Inland Fisheries Ireland. We are joined by the following officials: Dr. Cathal Gallagher, deputy CEO and head of research and development; Mr Barry Fox, head of operations; Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services; Ms Paula Byrne, interim head of human resources; and Mr. Michael Cusack, field services manager. We are also joined by Mr. Philip Nugent, assistant secretary from the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications. All of our witnesses are very welcome.

To begin this morning I will call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Inland Fisheries Ireland was established in 2010, amalgamating the previous regional fisheries boards with the Central Fisheries Board. Its remit is to protect, manage and conserve Ireland’s inland fisheries and sea-angling resources.

IFI’s income in 2022 amounted to €40.4 million. This was up from €31.7 million in 2021. More than three quarters of income comes from Exchequer grant funding. The €6.7 million increase in grant income in 2022 followed a one-off reduction in 2021 designed to reduce IFI’s prior high cash balance.

IFI’s expenditure in 2022 amounted to €39.9 million. More than 70% of expenditure, or €28 million, was in respect of remuneration and other pay costs. Some €9.9 million was spent on operations with €2.1 million spent on administration.

I certified the 2022 financial statements on 29 November 2023 and issued a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to a number of items in my audit report.

First, there have been a number of well-publicised governance concerns. The chairperson of the IFI board resigned in April 2022. A new chairperson was appointed in May 2022, but resigned in January 2023. There were a further four resignations from the board during 2022 and in January 2023. As a result, the board became unable to reach the required quorum to meet and to make decisions, including approval of the annual financial statements.

In February 2023, the remaining board members were stood down by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications on a no fault basis. Using statutory provisions in the relevant legislation, two persons were appointed on a temporary basis to perform the functions of IFI, pending the reconstitution of the board. The appointees were also required to initiate an external review of governance which was completed in December 2023 and made a number of recommendations. The appointees’ term ended in January 2024, when a full new board was appointed.

I also drew attention to an internal audit review highlighting a number of weaknesses concerning the utilisation of Aasleagh Lodge and cottages in the period from August 2014 to July 2022.

Finally, I drew attention to a disclosure that certain IFI prosecution cases had been withdrawn following legal advice about the authorisation of staff to prosecute offences.

A number of disclosures were made in 2021 and 2022 to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and to IFI. These disclosures resulted in the commissioning of a succession of reviews and reports. The 2022 statement on internal control outlines the status of these issues at the date of signing of the financial statements.

Separately, my office is further examining a number of control and value for money issues in IFI and I expect to present a report on significant findings from that work in due course.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and I invite now Dr. Gallagher to speak, as he has indicated, and he has five minutes. Dr. Gallagher has taken over effectively as the CEO and I wish him well in that role.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, and to the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today, and discuss the financial statements for 2022. We are pleased to be here to engage with the committee on our work, our challenges, and our new opportunities as we at Inland Fisheries Ireland look to a future with confidence.

I am the deputy CEO at IFI and I am here in that capacity on an interim basis. As advised to the committee in advance of the March meeting by the CEO, Mr O’Donnell is ill and continues to be on leave.

I am joined by supporting witnesses: Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services; Barry Fox, head of operations; Paula Byrne, interim head of HR; and Michael Cusack, field services manager.

The following will cover some overarching topics and themes regarding IFI’s financial statements and accounts for 2022. IFI’s responsive staff diligently protect, conserve and manage Ireland’s freshwater species and their habitats which work is happening in an unpredictable and rapidly-changing environmental world.

IFI is a key State environmental agency that continues to deliver high-quality public services and supports. The organisation has a statutory responsibility for Ireland's 74,000 km of rivers and streams, together with 128,000 km of lake. We also have a coastline patrol jurisdiction out to 12 nautical miles. Our staff have achieved considerable success in tackling illegal fishing, water pollution, fish kills and habitat destruction. We are also focused on habitat restoration and the promotion of Ireland as an attractive angling destination on the international stage.

Inland Fisheries Ireland, through its newly announced national barriers programme, is addressing the issue of water quality and particularly in reference to hydromorphological impacts as outlined in Ireland's third cycle of the river basin management plan. Government funding of €110 million has been approved for this initiative to remove, mitigate and where possible lessen the ecological impact of river barriers on migrating and resident fish species. This is critically important for Atlantic salmon, European eels and lamprey. Over the life of the programme it is expected that 257 barriers will be mitigated. It is expected that planning and environmental consensus will be critical to expedite this work. IFI has just recruited a new head of its barrier mitigation division and she will be building a new team to support this very important programme. We are very grateful to its two sponsors, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications.

IFI has endured a period of instability but we have taken consistent actions to address the shortcomings involved. We are leading and managing extensive change to systematically reform IFI. We are determined to implement these continuous improvements to rebuild governance that will create long-standing and better outcomes for all our stakeholders. Last year we received legal advice that certain individuals did not possess the delegated authority to initiate prosecutions on behalf of IFI. To rectify this issue going forward in June 2023 delegations were put in place expressly granting the necessary authority to the correct individuals to bring and institute criminal proceedings on behalf of IFI.

With regard to Aasleagh Lodge and cottages, IFI has consistently sought various solutions to maximise the return to the taxpayer of this unique State asset. We are satisfied that the board was appraised of all expenditure on the complex and we now have an agreed board resolution to sell Aasleagh cottages only and to upgrade and repurpose Aasleagh Lodge, consolidating the Aasleagh complex as an international research hub for the national salmonid index catchment on the River Erriff. It will also provide a training and education centre for IFI.

The EY governance review rightly identified a strong passion for working in or with IFI. The review said that the implementation of the new programme of work, to which the board and the senior management team are wholly committed, will set IFI up for future success. My colleagues and I look forward to progressing all the recommendations that feature in this review. It must be noted that while IFI is a high-performing organisation we have been limited in our ambition due to constrained financial and human resources over a number of years.

Aquatic environments are particularly vulnerable to the threat posed by biodiversity loss, climate change, and the spread of invasive species. The continued introduction and spread of invasive species nationally is a serious environmental issue. IFI believes that without effective legislation and a robust enforcement plan that is multiagency focused this issue will have significant economic consequences for future generations. IFI has experience in this regard with its management of lagarosiphon major on Lough Corrib over a ten-year period. Separately, European eel numbers have fallen dramatically and wild salmon numbers returning to Ireland have dropped from 1.7 million in 1975 to just over 170,000 in 2022. This is a catastrophic decline in less than one generation.

In June, IFI will host, along with our parent Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and on behalf of the State, a week-long event focused on the conservation and the plight of Atlantic salmon. This is being hosted in partnership with the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization. At this meeting international State actors and non-governmental organisations will discuss and agree plans for the future conservation and management of this iconic species. Last November, IFI addressed the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action regarding the recommendations in the Ireland's citizens' assembly report on biodiversity loss. IFI's objectives are reflected closely in the committee's own recommendations contained in the published report. We believe that serious consideration must be given to expanding the powers of authorised officers from various agencies to enforce environmental and wildlife legislation in a wider context. This needs to be coupled with a significant review of the fines associated with wildlife, water quality, and habitat destruction in order to deter those involved and to promote sustainability. IFI has introduced green strategies across the organisation to reduce our carbon footprint. It is a matter of pride for IFI that we were awarded first prize in the leadership in public sector decarbonisation and energy efficiency, a category at the SEAI Energy Awards in 2023.

The new IFI board led by Professor Tom Collins was established by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, last December. The new board brings with it strong governance and environmental focus, and considerable expertise to help IFI address the complex challenges I have outlined. A systematic plan of reform has been and continues to be executed across IFI with the assistance and support of our new board. This rebuilding will future proof IFI and empower us to do our collective best for the inland fisheries and sea angling resources we protect, manage and conserve. IFI is evolving and we now have much stronger governance and financial management process and procedures in place. We thank our board, the section 18 appointees, and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and his Department for their support. We also express our gratitude to our dedicated and highly accomplished staff. Through their work they have achieved a lot for the State and its citizens who enjoy Ireland's unique rivers, lakes and coastlines.

Our IFI team will now address the committees oral questions and we will share with the committee any written information that members request thereafter. I thank the Chair and the committee for their attention this morning.

I thank Dr. Gallagher.

I thank our witnesses. I will start with some questions around the withdrawal of the prosecutions. How many cases have been dismissed or withdrawn overall?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I will ask our head of operations to deal with that.

Mr. Barry Fox

Under the delegations issue, the number of cases affected was 61. To date, 46 cases have been withdrawn.

Was that across all District Court areas or just one?

Mr. Barry Fox

That is nationally.

Will Mr. Fox give us an example of one of the more serious cases that had to be withdrawn?

Mr. Barry Fox

I can. There were a number of case but the environmental cases that we had withdrawn will be the more serious ones. There was a specific case in Dublin I will give the details for. There was a fish kill on the River Rye. A number of fish had been killed and a lot of our stakeholders in the area had significant concerns over the fact that the case was withdrawn.

What was the number of fish killed?

Mr. Barry Fox

I do not have the actual number of fish that were killed but our directors reported that they believe it was probably the most serious case we had to withdraw.

We have no idea of the amount.

Mr. Barry Fox

It is not to hand but I can certainly provide it to Deputy Munster.

I was going to ask about the error and whether it was in fact an error. Mr. Fox said the relevant person did not have the authority to process the prosecutions. How did that come about?

Mr. Barry Fox

This issue arose in March 2023. We were questioned about the internal delegations to prosecute within the organisation by an external solicitor. Legal advice we received highlighted that certain staff within IFI did not have the authority to initiate prosecutions on behalf of IFI. The technical issue was rectified in June 2023.

Who gave the go-ahead in the first instance to these particular staff to initiate these prosecutions? Who gave the request or order?

Mr. Barry Fox

As this relates to ongoing criminal proceedings, I am advised it would not be appropriate to provide any further detail.

I am only asking about IFI. Somebody asked these particular staff to initiate these prosecutions. I am looking for the position. If Mr. Fox does not want to give the name of the person, will he say the position held in IFI by the person who gave the request or order to these staff to initiate the prosecutions?

Mr. Barry Fox

The issue was the power to delegate and the delegation of the authority from the board to the executive. That is where the issue has occurred.

What position did the person who gave the order hold? Was it a member of the board? Was it the chair of the board? Was it the CEO? Who was it?

Mr. Barry Fox

I am not in a position to give a lot of detail on this as a number of cases are live before the courts. What I can say is that the delegation comes from the board as it is a function of the board.

It came from the board.

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes.

We have yet to find out who gave that instruction and who the person on the board is who gave the instruction. What was the role of the staff? What was their position in the IFI? These are the staff who, it now transpires, did not have the authority to initiate these prosecutions. Were they clerical staff? It is a fairly substantial job of work to hand over to somebody. What was the position of these staff who were given this task that caused this entire fiasco?

Mr. Barry Fox

As I have highlighted already, I am not in a position to give a lot of detail on this as we have 16 cases live before the courts.

In fairness, Deputy Munster is not asking for names. She is asking where in the organisation the people are. Are they clerical officers, middle management or technical staff? What positions did they hold or what was their role in the organisation? That is broad enough without naming anyone.

Mr. Barry Fox

I can expand on the approvals process for prosecutions. The way it works in IFI is that we have authorised officers who are the fisheries protection officers in the field. They identify a breach in legislation and write their statements. They recommend a prosecution to their line manager, who is normally an assistant inspector or inspector. In the case of an environmental officer they will elevate it to the regional director, as would an inspector. The regional director will review the case, which will then go to the head of operations who will authorise the prosecution.

I take it there was a failure in the system this time around.

Mr. Barry Fox

It is historical. It was a number of cases that were in for hearing between March and June 2023.

That does not answer the question as to who initiated it and who was given the task of doing it, which is what created this whole fiasco.

Mr. Barry Fox

As I have highlighted, it is the delegations issue that occurred from the board to the executive.

It was recently reported in the Irish Examiner that IFI will be liable for the legal costs of the defendants in these cases. Does Mr. Fox have an idea of the total cost of this fiasco?

Mr. Barry Fox

Costs have not been awarded against us in the majority of cases. That is at the discretion of the judge. We have a figure to date for our legal fees in the 46 cases. It is sitting at €170,843.

That is some amount of money for something that could easily have been avoided if proper procedures had been followed. It is a total waste of money for the taxpayer.

I want to touch on the uninsured vehicles fiasco. What costs have been incurred in the case that arose from the traffic accident involving the uninsured vehicle? Does IFI have an idea for a ballpark figure of the final cost?

Mr. Michael Cusack

The cost to date in respect of the legal element is €38,000.

Does IFI have any idea of the final cost or an estimate of the final cost?

Mr. Michael Cusack

These costs have not been finalised. We do not have figures.

I want to touch on the performance metrics. With regard to testing Irish watercourses for the presence of fish and suitability, does IFI test all Irish watercourses? Are there areas it does not test?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

IFI has various programmes for sampling watercourses.

Does it test all of them?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

No, it depends on which particular programme we are looking at. We work directly on the water framework directive and look at the fish populations that contribute to the status of water bodies. In this case, we have a rota of three years over which we test various water bodies. This is defined by the EPA to a large degree. For example, in 2022 we sampled 24 lakes, 127 river sites and 12 or 13 estuaries. I will give the Deputy the exact figures. This is just one programme because we have multiple programmes. For habitat directive species, such as lamprey and others, we have a different sampling regime. For salmon, we have another sampling regime whereby we offer advice every year on 144 rivers. It is a changing dynamic depending on which programme and which particular catchment.

If the programmes were to be combined, what percentage of rivers would they cover?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I do not have the exact figure because it changes but I can certainly look at it and come back. Other water sampling goes on. There is a broad range of different types of sampling. One of the latest programmes we have looks at the environmental parameters for climate change. We have a number of index catchments that look at various measures, including temperature and water quality. We are involved in a broad range of programmes. One of the advantages of the type of operation we have is that we are regionally based. We have access to an awful lot of catchments. Many of the local staff have a lot of expertise and insight into their performance.

How are the results made available to the public if somebody wants to see them? There does not seem to be data on many of rivers on the map. How does somebody access the data for environmental, conservation or fishing reasons if it is not on the maps?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Over recent years, we have been developing an open data portal, which is available on our website. People can go into a live map and click on their local area. They can click on a dot on the map and pull up information on the fish populations there. I mentioned the water framework directive. We have made available, through our website, a water framework directive fish website. This website also has survey reports that detail particular local catchments. If people are interested in their local catchment, they can go in there and find information. Other reports are available and published annually about salmon and the status of salmon stocks.

There is a range of different reports but what we are trying to do is consolidate those into one map, where one can get all of the information easily by clicking on it. That has been a work in progress over the last few years.

Would the Department be satisfied, given the levels of funding, that all of the information is available for people? Is it satisfied in relation to patrolling measures, water quality, water testing and all of those sorts of issues? Is the Department satisfied?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes, we are satisfied with the level of data that is available at the moment and with the work that IFI has done in recent years, which Dr. Gallagher has just outlined. There is always room for improvement, particularly in an area where an environmental body is working because it is difficult to put a monetary value on the work they do. We are trying to ensure that we have extremely up-to-date and meaningful data to measure performance and that is outlined in the performance delivery agreement. It is a constant process of improvement.

Is Mr. Nugent saying categorically that there is a measure available to the public in relation to patrolling and water quality? Can he categorically state that is available?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am saying that the data outlined by the CEO is very beneficial-----

I asked about patrolling and water quality.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am not sure.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We can provide information in relation to patrolling and water quality.

Is that available to the public?

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes.

Where is that information? It is difficult to see it. Another issue is the number of prosecutions that have been successful. Where would people get that information? Where is the information on patrolling, water quality and the number of successful prosecutions?

Mr. Barry Fox

We can provide that information to the Deputy or I can give her the figures now, if she would like them.

Please do. Can we have the figures for patrolling and water quality testing?

Mr. Barry Fox

Inland Fisheries Ireland has a very narrow field of responsibility with regard to water quality. We are enforcing the inputs of deleterious matter into watercourses but the actual day-to-day water quality sampling to identify the water quality status is the work of a separate agency and is not the role of IFI. While we will monitor water bodies to ensure their health status, the majority of the actual legislative responsibility for water quality lies with the EPA.

I ask the witnesses to get back to the committee in relation to the issues of patrolling and successful prosecutions.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There is a high level of data and graphical information presented on both the protection activities and the protection of water quality in our annual report from 2022, for example. That goes into some detail and differentiates between the different types of protection patrols. There is reference, for example, to 727 boat patrols, 105 kayak patrols and various other details. On the issue of the protection of water quality, there are figures on industrial inspections, agricultural inspections, habitat inspections and so on. Fish kills are also documented, with the numbers of fish killed and the number of instances of fish kills outlined. The report also goes into some detail in relation to the items that are seized and the outcomes of some of the prosecutions.

Could we be furnished with that? Does IFI have a figure for successful prosecutions?

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes. Between 2021 and 2023, there were 258 successful prosecutions for fishery offences and 61 successful environmental prosecutions.

In the first instance, I have a sense that we are in a better place than we were the last time IFI appeared before this committee in July. There is a sense here of an organisation emerging from a crisis. The Minister's intervention, in terms of discharging the previous board on a no-fault basis, put us in a position where we could rebuild. I have a couple of questions but before posing them, I note that in his opening statement Dr. Gallagher said the ambition has been limited by financial constraints. One can see why there would be such constraints. The State has to be confident that the corporate governance structures are in place to allow it to invest.

I note that €110 million was provided for the national barriers programme. That is a really important programme. The future of the nature restoration law is uncertain in a European context but the Minister of State with responsibility for nature has spoken about the fact that Ireland is going to plough ahead. IFI will be absolutely critical, both in terms of the national barriers programme and the nature restoration law so we need to make sure that it is on a firm footing. This organisation has great value and the State is going to use it to deliver some very important public goods but we have to make sure that it is on a sure footing in terms of corporate governance.

I have a number of questions in that regard, the first of which is about the composition of the board. The board is now fully constituted. I want to check that the information on the members of the board, as published on the website, is accurate so I will run through the list now. Professor Tom Collins is the chairman and the members of the board are Ms Maria Graham, Ms Jackie Maguire, Mr. Raymond O'Dwyer, Ms Aebhín Cawley, Dr. Jonathan Derham, Ms Karin Dubsky and Dr. Paul Leo Connolly. Ms Lorraine O'Donnell is the staff representative on the board. I take it that information is up to date, so we have a fully constituted board now. The board is in business and ready to work, which is good. I take it the board has been quorate, able to meet and able to make decisions. The board was constituted on 16 January 2024. How often has it met since then?

Ms Suzanne Campion

It met twice in January, once in February, twice in March and once in April. We have another meeting scheduled for the end of May.

Okay, so it is meeting on a very regular basis.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

There would normally be five members on the audit and risk committee, constituted from the board. Has that committee been reconstituted?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, it has. Ms Jackie Maguire is the chair and it has also met twice since January, with another meeting scheduled for the end of May.

Who are the other four members of that committee?

Ms Suzanne Campion

The other members are Ms Maria Graham, Dr. Jonathan Derham and Mr. Raymond O'Dwyer.

Is it still the case that the committee is meeting before regular board meetings?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

That has been split so that there is not the same-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. That was very efficient for the section 18 appointees who were on both the audit and risk committee and the board at the time but-----

It resulted in very long meetings.

Ms Suzanne Campion

It was certainly a very long day for me, yes.

That is good. That was one of the EY recommendations. Of course, an important member of the board should be the CEO who acts in an ex officio capacity, involving full participation and voting rights. As deputy CEO, is Dr. Gallagher able to attend board meetings, with full voting capacity?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I have all the capacities of the CEO, except the power to vote at board meetings. I attend all of the board meetings and I contribute.

Dr. Gallagher is attending but does not have voting privileges. Is that correct?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

That is correct.

That is an issue. I want to explore a small ambiguity in the opening statement. Dr. Gallagher said that Mr. O'Donnell is ill and continues to be on leave. Is that illness leave?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I am limited in what I can say in relation to an individual and his or her leave. I also have to be conscious that the CEO does not actually report into the executive and that it is a matter for the chairman of IFI. What I can say is that the CEO informed the committee directly, before the March meeting, via his personal assistant, of his status as being ill. Since then, all I am able to say is that he is on leave.

There is an ambiguity in the statement, which reads, "As advised to the Committee in advance of the March meeting by the CEO, Mr O’Donnell is ill and continues to be on leave." On a cursory reading, I would interpret that as meaning that he continues to be on sick leave. However, Dr. Gallagher does not wish to confirm to the committee today that the nature of his leave is illness leave. He does not wish to confirm that to the committee.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

It is something that I should not really comment on. He is an employee and any leave is confidential to him.

Would Dr. Gallagher agree that there is a difference in tone between what is in his opening statement and what he is saying now?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I am not sure that I would agree with that. I am just trying to be factual in relation to it and am being careful in relation to an individual's status.

I find myself in a difficult position. Maybe it is a question for the board to answer or for Mr. Collins, as chairman, to answer, but I do not have Mr. Collins in front of me so I will move on. I want to go back to a line of questioning that I explored on the last occasion relating to the change of base from Citywest to Ballyshannon.

We want to put a lot of this stuff behind us, but it was stated at the previous appearance that the then chair, Mr. Fintan Gorman, approved of the change of base. Is it still the stated position of IFI that Mr. Gorman approved?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I have nothing else to the contrary.

We have nothing either to the fact. If Ms Campion has nothing to the contrary, we have nothing to the fact. Is there any written record?

Ms Suzanne Campion

There is a written record from the previous head of HR.

But it would not be a function of the previous head of HR to approve of a change of contract.

Ms Suzanne Campion

The Deputy is right. That is correct.

So there is no written report of Mr. Gorman having approved it. In fact, it would not have been within the remit of Mr. Gorman to make it on a unilateral basis in any case.

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is right.

There is no minute of the board that approves of this-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is correct as well.

-----and an updated contract was never co-signed.

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is correct.

Is it Ms Campion's understanding that in order for that to have been effectual, a written contract should have been co-signed and it should have been a decision of the board?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

While Ms Campion said there is nothing to change the previous stated position of the IFI, she is also saying that there is nothing to support the previous position of the IFI.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am taking it from, I suppose, what was said at the previous meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts by my colleague at the time. I have just the records that were supplied to the committee afterwards.

It is a heavy load to lay at the door of Mr. Gorman when we have no written documentary evidence to prove that that decision was ever made by him. We have a statement from the previous head of HR.

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is as much as I am relying on.

Okay. In the time remaining, I want to have a look at the EY report. In his opening statement, Dr. Gallagher stated that he accepts all of the recommendations and that he is happy. I think it is a good piece of work. He is accepting all of the recommendations.

Five of the detailed findings and recommendations, or five of the subheadings, from 2.1 to 2.5, inclusive, are to happen within three months. They are the zero-to-three-month findings and recommendations. Many of them involve the CEO. Dr. Gallagher finds himself in as deputy CEO. Has it been possible to progress these? These five should be completed at this point, if IFI was adhering to the timeline set out. How is it doing?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

On the progress, bear with me one second and I will read through the individual items.

The headings are: clear definition and agreement of the strategic remit of Inland Fisheries Ireland; realignment of board and committee structures and membership; refresh of supporting governance documents and provision of training; 2.4 is training and induction of board; and, probably critically, 2.5, relationship between the CEO and board chair. There is a number of sub-recommendations under each of these. I do not have them numbered. Perhaps Dr. Gallagher has.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I can go through the sub-ones or I can just give the Deputy an overall view to start with of where we are at.

As the Deputy has heard, we have a board in position. We have had - I think it was five - meetings outlined already. As part of those meetings, we have had the SMT working together to deliver a structured approach to the board papers. We have had formal meetings between the chair and myself in development of the board agenda. All of those individual items-----

You are doing pre-board meetings.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes, pre-board meetings-----

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

-----agendas in place. We have our audit and risk committee. That is in place.

We have started a process of looking at our risk process development. We have a number of sub-committees that are meeting, some of which are strategic in nature. That is looking at the future of the organisation. We have discussions around the structure and structure of the organisation going forward.

The training and induction of the board is planned at the moment and that is something that will be delivered, I think, before the May board meeting.

What of the strategic remit because some of the items identified in the IFI's own reporting are at variance with its statutory obligations?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We are looking at that. It is a broader discussion and some of that discussion is around the conversation we had earlier on about resourcing. It is about where we best spend the resources we have on which strategic area and trying to align the organisation so that we can deliver, and also looking at the new programmes, for instance, the barriers programme and how that would be structured into the organisation. There is a lot of new governance around a programme like that because as an organisation we are getting into an area of capital, which is a large amount.

With the Chairperson's indulgence, one of the very last recommendations on 2.1 is "Arrangements should be formally established between IFI and the Department to ensure that IFI’s ongoing performance against these deliverables, be subject to appropriate monitoring and review." That is a question both for IFI and for the Department-----

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Okay.

-----in terms of discharging this key recommendation. Has that formal relationship been established?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will go first, if that is okay. I thank the Deputy. It always existed but, as a result of some of the issues that we are discussing today and were discussed in the July meeting, the formal relationship continued but an informal relationship or a series of informal relationships came up to deal with issues as they arose. The formal arrangements are in place. We respect those. We continue to discharge our oversight function through a combination of the formal and informal, but there is a greater emphasis on the formal again than there had been because, as I say, there was a certain sort of crisis management over recent years, which required a more organic relationship.

I thank the Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for being with us this morning.

The previous Committee of Public Accounts hearing probably did not add to the overall public confidence in the organisation. That is probably an understatement. Dr. Gallagher does not have any board members with him today. Was that a decision made? Given the obviously very frequent interaction that has taken place and the previous questions around confidence of the board, but also the potential differences between the executive and the board, was there a particular reason no board members are with Dr. Gallagher today? I am not sure it was referenced in the invitation, by the way, and it is not necessarily him issue. Is it a missed opportunity not to have had board members here with him to try and discuss some of the issues that my previous colleagues have raised?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There was no conscious decision on our behalf. It was not something that was discussed. We defaulted to the invite that we received.

I have no doubt that it is hard enough to get people to serve on boards as it is without bringing them before the Committee of Public Accounts.

The organisation does great work. It is very valuable and it is very needed. Those are matters the organisation can discuss at the joint Oireachtas committee that covers that work. I suppose our job is to be in the nitty-gritty of the governance and the finances and we tend to concentrate on the negatives.

The previous meeting was incredibly unsatisfactory, in terms of Aasleagh House, the uninsured drivers, the contract arrangements and issues around staff numbers. There was a significant number of issues, which seem to have been responded to on the day through the HR function. Can Dr. Gallagher talk to us about some of the checks and balances that have been put in place since then to ensure that those type of issues do not arise?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I will defer to my colleague.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Is the Deputy speaking of specific instances? We work consistently to have internal controls in place.

Let me put it a different way. It seemed unusual that a large number of the issues that we dealt with were all being responded to on the day by the head of HR even though some of those issues were not specific to the HR function. Was that an imbalance in the way the executive was structured?

Ms Suzanne Campion

IFI is quite a small organisation. The uninsured vehicles at the time, the field services and facilities management fell under HR and it was appropriate that the HR would have answered on those particular queries. She also spoke about, obviously, the CEO's base. I am not sure what else - maybe numbers and staffing. She would have been involved in all of those.

And the staff conflict of interest relating to Aasleagh House as well.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. Since we have restructured within IFI, my role now takes over corporate services with the exception of HR and ICT. I now have field services and facilities management, which, at that stage last year, I would not have been up to speed on.

One of the references made on the uninsured drivers issue was that there was the issue of overworking and a huge volume of work and that that had been one of the reasons that led to it.

The concern is that that has not changed, but Ms Campion is suggesting that the restructuring of responsibilities has changed that.

Ms Suzanne Campion

The restructuring of responsibilities has changed that. Bearing in mind the context in which the uninsured vehicles issue arose, it was at a time when IFI was designated as – I cannot think of the word – an organisation that was allowed to work but, for the health and safety of our staff, they had to be in individual vehicles. We had lots vehicles coming on and off hire. Yes, we still have the same complement of staff operating that but, ultimately, we are very sorry that it happened at all and have taken steps to ensure it will not happen again.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

To add to that, at the time, we were at a level where all these vehicles were coming in. Not only that, staff members were willing to work but we were also in conversations about perspex screens and all of those historical things. There were a huge number of systems and processes in place during all of that. What happened was a systems failure and we have addressed that. It should not have happened but we have addressed that process. However, it was in that context-----

What measures are in place within field services to alert decision-makers to a potential issue such as that arising again?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We are delighted to have the field service manager here.

Mr. Michael Cusack

I assure the Deputy and the committee that in terms of the controls and action taken, this situation cannot arise again. Regarding the policy type and procedures in place, the nature of that event cannot reoccur.

It is now not vehicle-specific.

Mr. Michael Cusack

The policy as it is now is an annual declaration with open driving, so there is not the strict requirement when a vehicle comes on to immediately notify an insurer. That issue is absolutely dealt with.

What was the total cost of the issue of uninsured vehicles to the organisation?

Mr. Michael Cusack

The cost of the fallout is ongoing. There has been €38,000 in legal costs but claims have not been concluded.

There is a claims issue. Has there been any interaction with the Garda in respect of criminal prosecution? Having uninsured vehicles on the road is a criminal matter.

Mr. Michael Cusack

There was no criminal prosecution by the Garda in respect of a non-insured vehicle.

Regarding setting aside potential resources for future claims and so on, has IFI set aside a contingency for that cost?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

Of course, Ms Campion will not tell me what it is. Given that the matter will be decided by the courts, she must be able to give the committee some indication of what the total cost will be.

Mr. Michael Cusack

If I may come in here, these types of situations generally go through the injuries board process, and with that, there is a book of quantum that will give indications. We cannot comment, nor should not we comment, on the personal circumstances of someone, their personal injuries and their health status. However, suffice to say-----

Once that is decided, IFI will be able to comment on those claims.

Mr. Michael Cusack

Yes, absolutely but these matters-----

That is not the question I am asking. I am asking what contingency has been set aside for it.

Mr. Michael Cusack

I understand that is a matter for finance. Perhaps my colleague, Ms Campion, will come in on that.

Ms Suzanne Campion

We have made accruals and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General will be aware of the accruals. They took place in our 2021 accounts and our 2023 accounts.

What are the accruals?

Ms Suzanne Campion

That would be to put it out for the people who are making the claims to know what we are providing.

That is a tricky position. Let us come back to the issue of Aasleagh House, the contract to the staff member and all that. What steps have been put in place in respect of that potential conflict of interest? I ask Ms Campion to speak not about the specifics too much but about the general policy.

Ms Suzanne Campion

There is only one Aasleagh House. It is not something we do regularly in IFI. We have no other such premises. We do not come into that particular situation now. We have a board decision from October to sell the cottages and upgrade the other facilities at Aasleagh House, particularly the research centre. Regarding conflicts of interest, it was around segregation of duties, which is a key control within financial matters. It will not happen because we have introduced a policy whereby no commercial arrangements are allowable with staff within IFI. Therefore, those circumstances cannot happen again.

Has there been any discussion with, for example, the Land Development Agency, LDA, about the disposal of those properties or that land?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. As a matter of course, because it is part of the codes and the circulars, we put all of the available premises up on the OPW website. We also write to the LDA and get its approval that it does not need-----

In this case, the LDA did not express an interest in the property.

Ms Suzanne Campion

It was before the LDA was established but the premises has been up on the OPW website since 2017 as available and nobody has expressed an interest.

Given the remit of the Land Development Agency with regard to providing social and affordable housing, I ask the IFI to undertake to contact the agency again, given it is now in existence. Every opportunity to provide those types of properties from State agencies is important. Public housing is a priority of the Government. I ask Ms Campion to undertake to engage on that again to see-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

It is part of our process. We have a tracker for any property sales. Regarding the two cottages that will be coming for sale, we are currently splitting the folio because they were all in the same folio. We are preparing the site, making sure we know what is for sale and getting a valuation. I am through the motions in relation to-----

At the moment, it is intended to sell the cottagers privately on the open market.

Ms Suzanne Campion

When we get the valuation and when we go through that-----

The IFI is a State body with two homes in its possession. Given the number of people who are in need of home, at the very least, either through the local authority, an approved housing body or the LDA, I ask Ms Campion to ensure that everything that needs-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

We do it automatically.

In this case, it predated the LDA.

Ms Suzanne Campion

We are only starting to sell the two cottages again, so we are preparing the maps and preparing the valuation. The steps are that we will place the property on the OPW website and write to the LDA. There are times-----

They are all intended steps to take.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. We cannot take them until we have the proper map of what we are selling.

That is great. I thank Ms Campion.

I understand the property is in a rural area.

Ms Suzanne Campion

It is.

It is far from the nearest town. What is the nearest town?

Ms Suzanne Campion

The nearest town is Leenaun village. It is tiny. I suppose it is 5 km or 6 km away from the property. We had offered-----

That is the one that was in the film.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. Aasleagh Falls, which is part of the Erriff river, is just at Aasleagh House. It was the one in "The Field". It is a very scenic and beautiful area. The two cottages were offered for Ukrainian people to whichever Government agency was looking after that - I cannot think of the name.

Ms Suzanne Campion

It was not interested because it was too remote, and we could not provide dinners, laundry services and so on.

The witnesses are all very welcome. Good work by the staff in the organisation was overshadowed by poor governance by the organisation from an administrative point of view. There was a litany of issues. Reputational damage does not have boundaries; it impacts the entire organisation and morale, confidence and all of that. The litany of issues from the non-insurance of vehicles to Aasleagh House, the weaknesses the Comptroller and Auditor General indicated were there since 2014, the large number of protected disclosures and the legal fees – all of that screams. When representatives of IFI were before the committee last year, the issue at RTÉ was very much to the fore and this was one of the issues that did not get the kind of attention it needed. This committee was criticised for over-concentrating on RTÉ when, in fact, we were dealing with this issue too but it was not getting the kind of attention it needed to bring about the necessary changes.

The court cases which were withdrawn will have consequences for the confidence in the organisation. I am very familiar with the River Rye and with that fish kill because that river is partly in Leixlip, where I live. I remember that very well because my phone started hopping. We were looking at consequences immediately because a very large effort had been put into the conservation of that river and its rejuvenation by local industry and the anglers in the organisation. Some 500 mortalities of wild stock trout and other fish species were noted. That is the kind of magnitude we were talking about there. It will take years for the river to recover because it is wild stock.

It is very difficult to build confidence for those people who put that effort into the river to ensure it is in pristine condition. The failure to prosecute here has enormous consequences in terms of people having confidence in the State.

When one starts talking about the cases which were withdrawn, that is one thing, but when one goes into the detail and the consequences of that, it is really quite enormous. From the information that is available, it is obvious that IFI took samples away and tested them. Is all of that information available in that case and in other cases which IFI had to withdraw, and which is at least advantageous to the local communities in watching out for things, in understanding and in protecting?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I will start and then hand over to my colleague to answer some of the details. The loss and non-prosecution of those cases impacts both at the site and the local river, as the Deputy said, because people have a deep interest in and are protecting these rivers, as do our staff. It is unfortunate.

The positive side of it is that we are an agency out there and we are doing that work in many places and not all of the prosecutions failed. As an agency we are also actively trying to restore these catchments. The staff have been impacted by this issue and, as the Deputy mentioned, the other issues we have. One of the big focuses I have had from the chair of the board and the board itself is that we want to address the morale and to rebuild the confidence in the organisation as we move forward. That is critically important. Mr. Fox might address the specifics of the River Rye.

If he might do that very briefly, please, as I have some questions.

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes, to answer the Deputy, I will highlight that the director and the local staff in the area were very disappointed with the withdrawal of this case, as were the local stakeholders. On a more positive note, there is a refocusing in the organisation on the improvement and protection of habitats and water quality. It is something we are very aware of in the area in the river basin ecosystem, RBE.

Can I specifically ask what date the CEO went on sick leave?

Mr. Barry Fox

I do not have-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

We will have to come back to the committee with that information.

I would appreciate if the witnesses could come back to the committee with that information, please.

On the protected disclosures, we have some correspondence in from the Department today indicating that there were two protected disclosures. One was where an investigation was done by the legal firm McCann Fitzgerald and the second one was carried out by RSM Ireland Forensic and Investigation Services. There were ten such disclosures in 2022, with very small numbers of such disclosures prior to that. That was a year where many issues seem to have come to light which certainly go to the heart of how the organisation was governed, including the board.

Looking at this reply from the Department, it looks like the Department outsourced the inquiry, which is not unusual, into the protected disclosures. The protected disclosure process is very useful because it can lead to very important reforms as inside information is needed to address issues. It looks, however, like the Department has outsourced the disclosures but does not know what is going on with the first disclosure. On the second disclosure, it seems that the report is more or less completed but the Department does not seem to have been briefed. This has all of the feeling of a damage limitation exercise, given how unsatisfactory the Department’s last appearance before this committee was. Here we go again, where these things have not been brought to a conclusion where we can actually see the outworkings. Can the Department elaborate on this further on just exactly the amount of information it has on these investigations or is this exercise totally outsourced?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I thank the Deputy for the question. One of my responsibilities is oversight of Inland Fisheries Ireland. I am not involved in the protected disclosures processes for good reasons, which are to protect the integrity of the protected disclosures processes, to ensure there are no conflicts of interest and that they are dealt with by a separate part of the Department. What I can say, as mentioned by the Deputy, is that it is quite common for the investigation aspect of a protected low disclosure process to be outsourced or for specific expertise to be brought in. That is what happened with the first protected disclosure where it is-----

It seems to be concluded.

Mr. Philip Nugent

As I understand it, there are two parts to the letter. The second part has concluded and that protected disclosure process is owned entirely by Inland Fisheries Ireland. We do not have the report or the outcome of it and I understand that it may seem from the outside that nothing is happening or that it is taking a very long time but all of the protected disclosures are being pursued and bottomed out in compliance with the legislative processes which are outlined in the 2014 Act, and in compliance also with our protected disclosures policy. Everything will crystallise but they just have not crystallised yet.

Does Mr. Nugent have any indication of timelines because we have seen that the Department have had to take a very hands-on approach with the organisation but now has a very hands-off approach and has total confidence in the organisation?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I would not say that we have taken a hands-off approach with the protected disclosures process. We have respected the integrity of the processes and have ensured that they are being dealt with in compliance with the legislation and with both our and IFI’s published protected disclosures policies.

I will move on as I will pursue that by way of a parliamentary question.

On the legal services, there have been 24 separate firms involved between 2020 and 2022 where it cost just under €1 million. I received that information by way of a reply to a parliamentary question. Can IFI tell the committee how much has been spent from January 2022 to date to give us an idea? I know that some of these moneys relate to court cases and in bringing issues to a point where they can go to court and are then withdrawn. A cost is associated with that. Can IFI give us an indication, please, of how much the organisation has spent from 2022 to date?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Our legal fees in 2022 were €458,955 and they are split in our accounts between administration and operations.

What was the spend beyond that?

Ms Suzanne Campion

In 2023 it was €888,796.

How was that €888,796 split?

Ms Suzanne Campion

On prosecutions, €308,000 was spent, the judicial review was €415,000 and other services were €164,000.

What were the other services?

Ms Suzanne Campion

That would be corporate advice such as conveyancing that would be non-prosecution related.

How much of that was because of the internal issues of governance such as the vehicles?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I do not think I took that out. The fees on the delegations issue were €70,000. That is coming close to half the legal fees in the “other” category for 2023.

Could Ms Campion give us a note on that, please, and bring it right up to 2024-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, I can give the committee an analysis of that.

-----because I think that would be quite useful for us?

There was a question mark on whether there would be liability on the individuals driving the vehicles if there was an accident. It was, presumably, wholly the responsibility of the IFI if they were IFI vehicles. Is that the case?

Mr. Michael Cusack

Yes. To clarify, IFI has ensured that the employee, the driver of the vehicle, is fully indemnified by IFI.

I wish to ask about the two protected disclosures referred to in that letter. There were ten in 2022. How many of those are outstanding? How many of have been resolved? How many of them relate to the same issue?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Mr. Nugent spoke on the integrity of the system. While I am not aware of what is what, I can say that of the ten, six were deemed valid. Four were investigated internally, two were investigated externally, three were deemed invalid and one was a repeat of a previous one but I do not know the topic. Some of those have concluded.

In that case, is the net number two? Ms Campion said that four were investigated internally and three were deemed-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, internally, and two were external. Three were deemed invalid and one was a repeat of a previous one, so we could say nine in effect in total. Six were valid and then four were investigated internally and two externally.

I presume that the ones investigated internally have concluded?

Ms Suzanne Campion

One was closed the same year and one closed two years plus.

What were the outworkings of those?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I do not know the topics or what those two particular ones were. I can say that any recommendations coming forward from them would be built into policies or whatever the recommendation was.

Can we get a note on that in order that we can see what recommendations came from them? I understand the process is-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

From the two that were externally investigated?

Internally. I presume we will get the external ones. Will Ms Campion give us a note on that when the external investigations conclude, including what the recommendations are? Can we have the note when that happens? I hope that will happen fairly soon. We can then see where they are. It was highly unusual that IFI had none, then one and then ten. It just screams that something was going on. It happened at the same time there was real flux in relation to the board, so much so that the Minister became involved because there was not a quorum. As all of those other issues seemed to align at the same time, it is really important that we have some depth of understanding about what was being raised and what the recommendations are. We can see that very expensive reports have to be done. By the way, how much did the EY report cost?

Ms Suzanne Campion

It was €58,000.

Were other reports of that nature done?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No. We had audit fees and other different financial reporting but they were general run-of-the-mill.

As for the cases that were withdrawn, will IFI give us a report on that, where they were at, what had been spent on them and what was the financial cost? Obviously there is a huge other cost in relation to damage that has to be repaired. Another aspect is the finger being pointed at the wrong people where a prosecution is not taken.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We will be able to do that but we may have to wait until this process is completed, which I believe will be towards the end of the year because there are ongoing cases that might affect that. Once that process is complete we would be delighted to provide the information we have.

Can IFI give what it has to us, and then what is completed, in terms of the number of cases and how much they cost?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We will come back to the committee on that but we just need to be careful.

We had an overall cost earlier in relation to legal fees, which I believe is €170,000 to date.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes.

Will there be further costs on top of that €170,000?

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes. We have it broken down by regional river basin district so there should be no problem providing that.

But there will be further costs on top.

Mr. Barry Fox

There are another 16 cases to finalise.

Was it 40 in total?

Mr. Barry Fox

There are 61 in total.

If there are 61 in total we could expect another one third or perhaps a 30% or 40% rise in those legal costs. I thank Mr. Fox for that.

We will have a second round of questions because we are missing some Deputies - three Deputies were promoted and are now Ministers and Ministers of State. That is what has happened so we must repopulate the committee and we have a bit of work to do there.

With regard to the vehicles, thus far €38,000 of legal fees have been incurred for the issues that arose out of that accident. What is the status of that case at the moment?

Mr. Michael Cusack

The status of the case is the claims are ongoing. A claims process is being dealt with. At this point it is hard to determine when it will conclude-----

Is it in court?

Mr. Michael Cusack

It is not in court. It is going through the Personal Injuries Board process.

Okay. I thank Mr. Cusack. I do not expect any more detail than that because of the nature of it.

Roughly how many vehicles does the IFI have?

Mr. Michael Cusack

IFI has approximately 200 vehicles in the fleet.

How many field staff are there?

Mr. Michael Cusack

There are 226, and then at this time of year there are an additional 36 seasonal staff.

Are they are employed as water-----

Mr. Michael Cusack

They are fisheries officers on enforcement duties and development work.

Are the seasonal staff regular staff who are brought back every year? Is there a level of qualification there?

Ms Paula Byrne

I have just come into the organisation, so it is in process. There is a recruitment process done every year. We had about 17 people who returned this year who took the roles during the six-month contract last year.

Are any vehicles unused at the moment?

Mr. Michael Cusack

Not to my knowledge, no.

Of the 220 vehicles, are all of those leased?

Mr. Michael Cusack

The core fleet of approximately 200 vehicles is owned fleet.

Is that found to be more cost effective?

Mr. Michael Cusack

It is and especially when one considers operations where the type of work is not seasonal, albeit it is ramped up in the summer. The vehicles are used all year round.

What is the annual cost of the fleet? There is a figure here on a note that shows in 2022 the cost was over €7 million, and in that year IFI spent €1.4 million on new vehicles. What is the projected cost for the fleet in 2024?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The €7 million figure refers to the acquisition value of the fleet, so that would not all have been incurred in 2022.

So it is over €7 million, yes.

Ms Suzanne Campion

The running upkeep of vehicles was €1.5 million in 2022. It runs around that amount every year.

That is okay. I wish to go back to Aasleagh Lodge for a moment. The property was leased to a staff member and as I understand it, this was on a fairly informal basis. Is that correct?

Ms Suzanne Campion

It started on a formal basis-----

It started on a formal basis?

Ms Suzanne Campion

There was an expression of interest run and a contract was awarded but it rolled on for a number of years without any updates to the contract.

Did that did have board approval at the time?

Ms Suzanne Campion

The board was made aware, while the property was going to be put up for sale, that a staff member might have been operating the cottages.

Was it just the cottages?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I would have to check what the action was. I have it here. It may have just been the cottages at the time.

How long did that arrangement operate with the staff member?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry I did not hear what the Cathaoirleach said.

How long did that arrangement last with the same staff member who had it?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, 2017 to 2021.

Obviously in 2021 there would not have been any need due to Covid.

Ms Suzanne Campion

In 2021, life opened up a little bit and you could travel outside of one's county. You could take accommodation but everything had to be clean, etc.

So it was used somewhat in that year. Works costing €173, 000 were carried out. Is it correct that the works did not have board approval?

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is the Ballinakill base. That is the work base on the complex. Going back to 2017, it was part of the plan to build a new work base costing approximately €500,000. By 2020, when the board decided to take Aasleagh off the market it was agreed that the existing Ballinakill base would be upgraded because it was not going to be sold. For the business and capital plans going forward, which were approved by the board, from 2021 to 2022 the Ballinakill base was mentioned. In December 2022, the head of finance made a presentation to the board and noted the €130,000 for the Ballinakill upgrade. The minutes note that the board-----

But €173,000 worth of work did not have board approval. It did not come before the board for it to make a decision and minuted that the board had approved it. Am I correct about that?

Ms Suzanne Campion

There are three different elements to the €173,000. The first amount was the preparatory works that were undertaken, which came to about €14,000 in 2022. That was approved by the executive because the amount is under-----

Under €50,000, yes.

Ms Suzanne Campion

The €130,000 was put to the board in December 2022 and it is important to note that was the last minuted board meeting of the board. In 2023, there was an overrun of costs, which was approved by the executive. The three different portions came to €173,000.

As I said about the capital and business plans, the board were appraised of the various plans and expenditure. The €130,000 cost was not ideal but it was presented to the board at the board meeting in December and the contracts were signed. I was not party to any of that. I am just looking at the timelines and following through. The board meeting was 14 December, the contracts were signed on 19 December, the money was put into matured liabilities and notified to the Department, and agreed with the Department, in very early 2023, and the overrun was notified in early February 2023 and approved thereafter.

On the arrangement with the staff member, there is very limited information about a tender process but that is because the file was missing.

Ms Suzanne Campion

That is right.

Has the file been found?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No.

So the file has not been found.

Ms Suzanne Campion

No.

On the conflict of interest, was an arrangement entered into with a senior staff member?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No.

Were all the internal audit report contained recommendations fully implemented?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. Before the audit was finished, most of the recommendations they had put forward had been addressed by IFI. We have one outstanding thing, which is about putting in a policy for the use of unused properties. At the moment we are doing a multi-annual capital plan and a review of all our properties. We had a review in 2014 and in 2021. The initial report in 2014, which was updated in 2021 and is constantly looked at, is being updated now again with a view to having a multi-annual capital plan.

It states in the annual report that "IFI plans to further develop policies regarding reassessment of properties not in use."

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

Is that ongoing active work regarding disposal or further use?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

Ms Campion mentioned the word "complex". For anyone who has not seen the building, we know a certain about it from previous hearings at this stage. It would appear to be a substantial period residence on a plot of land with two cottages. Ms Campion also mentioned a work area. Is the work area part of the main house?

Ms Suzanne Campion

It is about 50 m away.

Is Ms Campion happy that there is a comprehensive plan for the whole complex?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

What is the size of the complex?

Ms Suzanne Campion

It is on 9 ha of land.

That is approximately 23 acres of land.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. The River Erriff fishery is an amazing index fishery on which my colleague will comment.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

One of the focuses of that particular area is this index catchment. It one of the national salmonid index catchment areas. Since the 1980s, we have had facilities there to trap, count and look at all the fish. We also have that whole catchment now indexed for other research programmes so we are looking at the climate changes. It is a very natural catchment with a good run of salmon and sea trout. We have research staff based there. We have a number of funded projects that are looking at that. It is a critical national piece of infrastructure in respect of our work and research and it is planned for the area to be of increased focus. It is so valuable that when we bring other international scientists there' they are amazed we have a facility like that available. It is a full catchment under our control where we can look at the details of what is happening with these fish populations. We can look at the stresses and pressures that they are under. We can look at taking mitigation actions and see if those actions can be reflected in other parts. The plan going forward is there will be a strong focus on that element of it.

The second part is the Ballinakill base and there has been some confusion when we start talking about all of this in the Aasleagh complex. The Ballinakill base has been refurbished, which was badly needed because the staff there who operate seagoing ribs, for example, and patrols.

What is on the Ballinakill site?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There is an office and storage facilities for boats and equipment.

Has part of an old building been renovated or is it a new place?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

No, it is 50 m away. It was in an older building on site and now it has been renovated to provide an office and meeting room, and storage facilities, for the local staff who are based there. There is also the Aasleagh lodge, which was a former residence for the fishery. There is two cottages. The River Erriff is a renowned salmon fishery so we lease fishing on the Erriff.

Is Dr. Gallagher happy to confirm that all of the recommendations in the internal audit will be fully implemented?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

They will.

How far down the road are they? Have most of them been implemented?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Everything bar that one policy I mentioned at the end.

I want to ask about a couple of issues, following on from the Cathaoirleach's line of questioning. How was the missing file generated? Was it digitally generated or was it a manual file?

Ms Suzanne Campion

As I have recently taken over the role, I tried to figure out from everybody where it was and what it looked like. I spoke to a few different people who said they remembered the file sitting in a filing cabinet - a paper file back from 2017. It was the operational file of awarding the contract and the agreements in place.

It is extraordinary that in this day and age that here would not be a digital file. I cannot think of an office that does not generate something in a digital file.

Obviously, if the file was in a filing cabinet, it was in an office. Have the people who worked in that office been questioned?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. People recall the file. They described it to me and went to look for it.

I was not involved in the Aasleagh Lodge audit until the very end. Right during the audit they went through all the archive facilities that are down in the west of Ireland. There are two places where they keep files outside of the office and they could not find them there. They really went to try to find it.

It is very regrettable. It would have contained a lot of information that we have been trying to examine.

On a second point, Chair, could we just get the documentation on those approvals, copies of minutes and things like that in respect of Aasleagh Lodge?

We will get the works on it. Okay. I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

The next speaker is Deputy James O'Connor.

I want to extend my welcome to those appearing before us this morning. Why did IFI seek dormant accounts funding for its angling programme? Could the rationale behind that be explained? Who of the participants in today's meeting was involved in that particular process?

Ms Suzanne Campion

What year are is the Deputy talking about?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I was involved in that. Why did we do it? Because it aligns with our strategic objectives.

In terms of the reason IFI sought it, it aligned with the organisation's strategic objective. What would that be?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Inland Fisheries Ireland under section 7 of the Act has a duty to promote and to train anglers. It fits neatly into the various elements of section 7.

How much dormant accounts funding was awarded to IFI following its first application? When was its first application?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Our first application, there was €70,000. Just let me get out the figures.

I think it was closer to €400,000.

Ms Suzanne Campion

There were two different measures. That is correct but I will just get the figures. We applied for the funds between 2018 and 2020. I actually do not have the figures in my file and I normally have them everywhere.

I might just remind upon the fact that Ms Campion are before the public accounts committee and we have an interest in is the IFI accounts. I assume Ms Campion would have known this would have been a pretty pertinent issue before she walked into this room today. So she does not have them.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry I do not.

That is pretty appalling.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I had them all the last time and I thought they were all dealt with. I am sure I can get them immediately.

Can Ms Campion get them before the end of today's meeting if we request them now?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. I took them out of the file because I actually thought we had dealt with them the last time.

We might just steer clear of the figures for a moment but I just want to ask. I would like to see them for 2018, 2019, 2020 and subsequent to 2020 if it was indeed requested, if that is okay with Ms Campion.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Subsequent to when?

2020, if that funding was requested.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Subsequent to 2020.

Up until now, if Ms Campion can provide that to the committee. I am asking for that.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Okay.

In terms of the process used by IFI for the administration of that funding, could Ms Campion provide a breakdown of IFI administration costs per year in the administration of that funding and the amount spent on the actual programme delivery by IFI? Are others approved by IFI for the expenditure of that funding? I also assume that Ms Campion would have approved budgets for each dormant accounts funding application received, which I ask her to confirm, and the delivery plan, and if copies of that are available to the PAC.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry, I absolutely thought these were dealt with at the previous committee meeting because nothing has changed since then. We did not assign any administrative costs in IFI to the delivery of the scheme. They were basically subsumed into our ordinary day-to-day operations. The money was all spent on the actual schemes themselves.

Can Ms Campion provide us with documentation to prove that is the case?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

I would appreciate that, please. It is definitely important as well. With regards to IFI's strategy, where does the delivery of the angling programme sit?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Stewardship. There are seven HLOs and there is one to do with stewardship of our angling resource.

Just for the public to be aware, what are HLOs?

Ms Suzanne Campion

High level objectives.

In terms of the potential risk to Sports Ireland-funded and non-funded angling NGBs, when IFI decided to run angling programmes and coaching free of charge to the public, did it assess any potential risks of that going wrong?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We would do a risk assessment on each and every activity that we undertake under that measure.

Did any issues occur with the angling programme?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Not particularly.

Did any issues occur with tendered coaching?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Is the Deputy talking about the novice angling activation?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We did a tender process for that.

What did that cost?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We had awarded €50,000 towards that particular programme. I think €21,800 was drawn down by one organisation and the other organisation that was awarded funding did not draw down at all; it refused the money.

In terms of carrying out the tendered works, how did that take place if IFI had two tenders that were issued and one participant did not draw down the money? How did the organisation carry out that process in terms of the coaching?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We returned the funds to the Dormant Accounts Fund.

Did anyone step in to fill the gap in coaching or how did that happen?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No.

There was no issue there. Nobody was paid for work they did not do, for example.

Ms Suzanne Campion

There was nobody paid for work they did not do.

That is important. I thank Ms Campion for the clarification on that. In terms of the external delivery of the novice angling activation programme, could she explain how that worked?

Ms Suzanne Campion

There was a tender provided with a set of objectives to be delivered. It was awarded to an organisation and they provided reports and updates and it was monitored.

In terms of the SLAs, IFI moved to the e-tender process. Had Ms Campion any issues when she doing this in terms of the organisation's management?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry; I do not understand the question.

IFI moved under its service level agreement to an e-tender process. This is standard. I just want to get an insight from Ms Campion in her role as head of finance and corporate services as to whether she encountered any issues with the e-tender process. With regard to the delivery of the process, were there any issues in the allocation of who won IFI tenders? The reason I am asking is that there have been pretty serious issues raised by people around IFI's novice angling strategy and funding that was allocated to it. I hope Ms Campion understands the premise of my question.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry, I am a little bit lost, to be honest. I am not sure what the Deputy's question is.

Okay. I might just move on to my next question. A sum of €70,000 was given to ACI from the 2018 funding. Did it share in the €323,250 as announced in the 2018 press release through IFI? Has IFI this money in an account somewhere? We have discussed this with people who brought the issue to our attention.

Ms Suzanne Campion

There is no money in any account, anywhere. All money was expended on the programme as outlined and returns made to the Department. What are the other points of the question?

That is it.

Returning to my first question, I would appreciate if Ms Campion could furnish that information as soon as possible. Is it possible to get that before the end of today's meeting? Otherwise we have to----

Ms Suzanne Campion

On the drawdown and the expenditure, certainly. I probably have it on my computer if I can access it but I am sure somebody can get it.

Otherwise Ms Campion have to come back.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Absolutely.

I had all that information in my file and I took it out because I thought we had dealt with it the last time. I am so sorry.

For how long has each of the witnesses been in the IFI?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I think it is 17 years.

Mr. Barry Fox

I started in the organisation in 1995. I left in 2001 and came back in July 2022.

Okay. What about Ms Campion?

Ms Suzanne Campion

I have been here since 2002.

Dr. Gallagher is obviously there the longest on a consistent basis. In terms of both he and Ms Campion coming in at a time when there was a crisis, what were their impressions of the organisation at that stage, before a lot of the issues came to light? Were issues being raised? Were people concerned? I refer to the issue with the vehicles. At that stage, had doubts emerged about the ability to prosecute, Aasleagh House and other such matters? There must have been rumblings of discontent within the organisation.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

My experience of the organisation is that it is very vocational. I am sure the Deputy has encountered our staff in various places. It really is a staff of dedicated people who are focused on trying to get the job done.

I do not doubt that.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

l am just coming to the point. All of the issues that happened over that period were as surprising to me – I will not speak for everybody – when they were raised, as to anybody else. What we have tried to do is address them as they have come up.

Was Dr. Gallagher personally very disappointed when these issues came to light and with the reputational damage?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Of course. I think everybody in the organisation was. That is why I said that I am sure all the staff feel the same way. I think we are all disappointed that any issue has been raised, but we have encountered a number of issues coming together in a short period and it has been a very difficult time. What we are anxious to do is to consider all of the staff. The most valuable part of the organisation is the people we have, and we do not want to lose them. We have heard about the impact of Covid. Our staff were out there working and doing their best when all of these issues happened, for various reasons. We do not want to lose that piece of the organisation – the dedication of staff who go beyond what is expected. Is it disappointing that this affects morale?

Some of this is self-inflicted. I refer to morale in terms of the issues that came to light.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes. As we go through the issues, the Deputy will see that there are various issues, some of which are process related to different things inside the organisation.

What was Ms Campion's impression when she came into the organisation in 2002?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, I was with then Southern Regional Fisheries Board to begin with, based in Clonmel. I have always found everybody in the organisation to be really hard-working and vocational.

Can Ms Campion say "everybody" given the things that emerged?

Ms Suzanne Campion

On the various issues that emerged, the uninsured vehicles issue, for example, was an accident.

Was there a culture within the organisation of questioning things?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Absolutely, yes. The Comptroller and Auditor General gave a clear audit opinion right up to 2021, and I do not think any issues of concern were raised. In 2021, we hit the jackpot and quite a few bits and pieces landed in the statement of internal control, SIC, that we have been dealing with since.

"Jackpot" is an extraordinary description.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I took over as head of finance and corporate services in 2023. The 2021 accounts were signed off thereafter, and the 2022 accounts. I would prefer not to be dealing with all of these big issues.

Obviously, a clear audit opinion does not mean that attention is not drawn to things. In today's report there was talk of weaknesses in the leasing since 2014. Are there other issues like that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think any of the issues that are there do not generally stretch back to 2014. Obviously, there were issues relating to the dormant accounts funding and so on, which seem to have gone back to about 2018 or 2019. While moneys were allocated, the drawdown seems to have been later. Again, in the period of 2020, Covid was obviously a factor there. For some reason, a lot of these matters seemed to surface at this point. It is certainly a concern.

There are a number of relatively minor issues as well, which I am covering in the report that I am producing, which perhaps are a bit longer term. They may be indicators that perhaps controls were a little bit more lax than they should have been. I think the committee will have an opportunity to consider that further.

I will move on. Our last meeting was very unsatisfactory. Would the witnesses dispute any issues that were put on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts that day?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Everything that was disclosed in the SIC was disclosed for a reason. Everything has been audited or addressed. We are so privileged to have worked with the section 18 appointees last year. The EY report gave us guidance and a pathway forward. We have implemented a lot of recommendations and the rest are to be implemented. We are absolutely focused on doing that.

I presume Ms Campion has that on some sort of chart. I refer to the recommendations of the senior counsel, Ernst & Young, the internal audit, and how they would be worked into the organisation. Could she give us an indication of where each of those recommendations is at?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. We have trackers on what we are doing, depending on whether it is an audit or whatever else. Two of the recommendations in the Conleth Bradley report were implemented and the rest were not because the board was no longer in existence. We are working towards the implementation of the EY recommendations.

Could Ms Campion give us that list so we can see for ourselves? We have to satisfy ourselves.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, absolutely.

We could invite a lot of people in here and we do not want to keep on having the same people back. We want to be satisfied that the issues that have been raised have been dealt with.

Have exit packages been paid to any people who have departed in recent years, let us say since 2021?

Ms Suzanne Campion

We never really had an exit package. Mr. Barry has the figures for Workplace Relations Commission settlements or redundancy settlements.

Could Ms Campion give us a note on them?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. I think Ms Byrne has them here.

A note would be fine.

Ms Paula Byrne

I do not have any details on them but between 2018 and 2024, there were ten redundancy packages and nine settlements.

Even if it is a global amount, could Ms Byrne give us the total involved?

Ms Paula Byrne

Yes, the total cost of the packages over that period was €230,700.

Could Ms Byrne please provide whatever detail is available in that regard? I understand there are individuals involved but I would appreciate it if we could get more granular information.

Ms Paula Byrne

Okay.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Details on remuneration are in note 6a of our accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is a disclosure there in relation to redundancy payments in the aggregate, one ex gratia payment and five settlements, totalling €65,000 for all of those together. That just relates to 2022.

We will turn to the financial statements for a moment with regard to expenditure from 2017 to 2022. I note that IFI is going from a figure of approximately €26 million in 2017 up to approximately €34 million in 2022. I also note that staff numbers actually reduced between 2021 and 2022, yet the expenditure is up. Why is that?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Can the Cathaoirleach repeat that, please?

There is a fairly steep increase in expenditure from 2017 to 2022. I am going by a line on the graph where it looks like it goes from approximately €27 million to €34 million. However, staff numbers dropped according to the figures that we have.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Is the Cathaoirleach looking at the graph in-----

It is expenditure from 2017 to 2022.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I do not have a graph for that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The expenditure has grown from about €27 million to about €34 million.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes, the expenditure has grown.

I am just going by the graph I have here in the briefing note.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes. I suppose it depends on funded and non-funded projects. We are getting in a lot of funded projects, so that is taken in as income and then the expenditure would go out against it, so there is no real difference. We do not generally make a profit. We might get some contribution to our overheads.

However, is that expenditure all current? Is capital rolled into that as well?

Ms Suzanne Campion

The capital budget is included in our income from the Department.

Within that-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

Our overall budget includes capital, if we are looking at €34 million for 2021.

It includes capital. That is the point I wanted to make. Basically, it is not related directly to staff, the increase in other issues, such as-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

In terms of the increase from €27 million to €34 million between 2021 and 2022, the Department withdrew close to €5 million from us at the end of 2021 because we were holding cash in our bank balances. That is reflected in the €27,000 in drawdown. Therefore, in effect, the difference is €2 million year-on-year.

With regard to 2022 and 2023, how much was spent on professional fees in each of those years? By the way, the staff reduction figures in the note I have here show that there was a reduction of 25 from 2020 up to 2022.

Ms Suzanne Campion

Our consultancy, and this includes legal fees as well, was €1.1 million in 2021, €1.45 million in 2022 and €1.95 million in 2023. A huge part of the 2023 figure is down to the aquaculture licences appeals board, ALAB, costs, that is, the judicial review with regard to agriculture licensing.

Okay. I will move on for a minute to courses undertaken by staff in third level colleges. As I understand it, there is a spend over that five-year period between 2018 to 2023 of €1,665,000. Would that be correct?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No, definitely not.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I am sorry, Cathaoirleach. Where is this? That is definitely not correct.

Ms Paula Byrne

I had a quick look at third level courses at all levels between 2018 and 2024 and the total I got is €198,320. That was courses for 52 people between-----

It was for 52 people.

Ms Paula Byrne

Yes, between 2018 and 2024.

Ms Suzanne Campion

I have the figures relating to the dormant accounts.

We can come back to that. I want to stay with the college courses for the moment. I have a list of college courses that as I understand it were undertaken by staff, and the colleges in which they were taken. The majority of them relate to management training and management courses. More than 80% of them relate to that. Would that be correct?

Ms Paula Byrne

That seems high. I have a list. I apologise; I am only in the role a few weeks, so I do not have that list.

I will tell Ms Byrne what they are. They are in project management-----

Ms Paula Byrne

Yes, I might have some of that.

-----supervisory practice-----

Ms Paula Byrne

A diploma in management.

-----environmental management-----

Ms Paula Byrne

Yes.

-----diploma in project management, energy management - I am running through them.

Ms Paula Byrne

Yes. I pulled the list yesterday and it looks like it is similar.

I have a list and I do not know whether it is correct or not. That is the question I am putting to Ms Byrne. There is a figure of €1,665,506-----

Ms Paula Byrne

I did not come up with that figure.

Ms Paula Byrne

I have individual costs. I am not sure we have the same list. I will come back to the Chair and confirm it. It seems-----

There is a course fee listed at the end of each one. The courses range from €14,800 down along. There are a number of fees of approximately €14,000. They start from €390.

Ms Paula Byrne

It is €395.

Yes, for trainer courses. Presumably those are day modules or something.

Ms Paula Byrne

I have that total, if we have the same sheet, of €104,863. The last figure I have on my sheet is €1,500 for 2024.

Okay, and 52 people undertook those courses.

Ms Paula Byrne

In total, between master's degrees and those, I think there are 44 on the list I have. Therefore, 52-----

Am I correct in saying that more than 80% of them were in management-related courses?

Ms Paula Byrne

At a cursory look at the list the Cathaoirleach has, yes, I think so.

There were so many people undertaking management courses. I am trying to reconcile in my head the practice around the fact that 52 people from not that big a State body or public body were undertaking courses. On the other hand, to quote Ms Campion, you hit the "jackpot". That may not be the best term to use for it but, in the context of a number of issues that relate to poor management, poor practices in governance, etc., is it not unusual that 52 people were undertaking courses in the same years, yet IFI finished up with a number of these debacles relating to governance and poor practice?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I think the organisation is investing in its people and where we-----

That is why-----

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

-----will see the benefit of that is in years to come. What we have been trying to do at all grades in the operation is to increase the capabilities with regard to management and governance. Those projects are related to that. Much of the work over the period - I am 20 years in the service - has changed a lot. What is expected of people now is different from what it was when they started 20 years ago, particularly around projects they are doing on the environment. For example, we have a huge amount of new environmental legislation and a significant amount of planning. A lot of that needs skills. Many of the project management courses are directed at making sure our field staff who are involved in those projects have the skills that are required. In much of that whole domain, once we go into a river to do some work or into the riparian corridor, the number of surveys, planning applications and funding applications and the governance associated with all that has increased greatly on our staff. That is probably directed at that.

I understand that. It will be accepted that regulations change, not just in respect of environmental matters and water quality and so forth, but also around a range of other things. The point I am making is that we have a situation whereby 52 people at middle or senior management level undertook courses and yet during the very same years IFI was landed with the jackpot in terms of-----

Ms Suzanne Campion

It was a bad turn of phrase.

I did not mean that in any bad way. However, it was landed with a number of fairly serious issues.

The Comptroller and Auditor General is producing a report. If I heard him correctly, he mentioned that some significant issues will be reported on in that so presumably further information will emerge from that. We do not have that information yet so I do not want to prejudge that. The point I am making is that over that five-year period or so, all of these bad practices regarding Aasleagh Lodge, uninsured vehicles and all the other matters we have been raising have been accumulating and landing before us. You would expect that things would improve because those courses are about improving the people who undertake them.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

They are.

I accept that it is good that people are undertaking those courses. In any organisation, business or public body, it is essential that people keep up to date and get their skills up.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I do not want to collate that the people doing that particular type of work were involved in the issues. They are mutually exclusive. I do not really think that is the reason or that there is some relationship between them. That is probably the normal mode of operation for an organisation in the development of its staff. We focused on the elements of project management and management because of the issues I outlined. We have to keep the skill sets updated so that people can operate in that environment. I do not think the issues we had over that period and this training are related or that because we had training, the issues should not have happened or-----

Do I assume they are at a higher level?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

That the----

They arose because of bad practice at a higher level.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I am not even sure of the levels but I would not collate the two.

Ms Paula Byrne

I am carrying out a review of learning and development. One of the things IFI needs to develop is the particular skill sets against the different grades and to have the courses, training or internal training on whatever topics. I am from a different sector but governance has added a significant burden for everybody. There needs to be particular training per grade in the organisation, particularly with a view to capability going forward and succession planning. One of the objectives I have for the coming months is to look at that and allocate and agree what the skill sets are.

Is Ms Byrne satisfied that the courses undertaken relate to so-called core activities or the main activities of IFI?

Ms Paula Byrne

I have only had a brief overview in the few weeks. I do think there is. When people are appointed on a promotion basis, there should be a set, for example, when you go into supervisory management for the first time or leadership. There should be elements of finance.

On the basis of what she has seen, and I understand she has only been in the role for a short period of time, would Ms Byrne be happy and able to assure the committee that the courses that were undertaken in the past five years were related to the functions of those people within the body?

Ms Paula Byrne

I do not know the individuals who undertook them but from reading the list of courses, the courses certainly seem relevant to the roles.

I want to return to the 2018 figure of €70,000 that was allocated for the Angling Council of Ireland, ACI, angling for youth development programme. It says that money was never allocated. Is it true that it never received that €70,000?

Ms Suzanne Campion

There was no allocation to ACI.

Ms Suzanne Campion

There was none. There was an allocation to IFI. In all cases, the dormant accounts fund is channelled through to State agencies. ACI is not a State agency, so there may be a misunderstanding there. I have the figures for the approved allocation and the disbursement. In 2019, €393,000 was awarded and €372,000 was drawn down. In 2020, €580,000 was awarded and €551,000 was drawn down. In 2021, €606,000 was awarded and €256,000 was drawn down. IFI was audited across the various elements and repaid close on €28,000 in respect of three different amounts of funding. The audit said we should pay back a proportion but because the programme was closing in advance of the audit coming out, we chose to pay back the whole lot in order that there would be no question over it. The audit report stated that, in all instances, it was possible to make a clear link to the target groups.

When the former Minister of State, Senator Kyne, had responsibility for this area, he said that IFI was chosen as the recipient of two funding measures that would engage and support young and novice anglers in Ireland. He said the funding would see the development of a new novice angling strategy, a scheme to support angling events for novice and young anglers and the appointment of five regional outreach co-ordinators. The measures included measure 2.7.1, a novice angling strategy involving €70,000 that would see the development of a novice and youth angling strategy and a scheme to support events for disadvantaged groups, angling hubs and coaches to ensure a safe environment for youths and vulnerable adults. An IFI press release stated that IFI would continue to support angling for youth development Ireland, AFYDI, and ACI, which facilitate the formation of angling hubs nationally to increase access to angling through the provision of trained coaches and safe fishing. You can see where that confusion occurred or else what Ms Campion is telling me is incorrect.

Ms Suzanne Campion

The board decided that we needed to go to tender to award the funding. The ACI-----

Had it been told prior to that it was getting funding from either the Department or IFI?

Ms Suzanne Campion

No. It was saying that there may be funding-----

Ms Campion is saying "No".

Ms Suzanne Campion

My recollection of events-----

Is Ms Campion saying "No" to that?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

Was ACI told prior by either the Department or IFI that it was getting €70,000?

Ms Suzanne Campion

IFI cannot just decide to whom it is giving money without-----

I just want to clarify that the answer is "No".

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We can only speak and clarify from an IFI perspective, not from the perspective of the Department.

Based on IFI's perspective, is that a "No"?

Ms Suzanne Campion

Yes.

That was a "Yes". I just want to clarify that ACI was not told. I do not want to be flippant about it but IFI did not tell ACI that it was getting €70,000.

Ms Suzanne Campion

We did not tell it.

Is it okay for me to ask questions of the assistant secretary? Could Mr. Nugent help me to clear up that bit of confusion? Is there a discrepancy here?

Mr. Philip Nugent

The same rules apply to the Department. We cannot commit to funding somebody without conditions. There need to be processes in order to ensure value for money is achieved and proper processes are followed.

Did the Department tell that organisation that it was getting €70,000?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It predates my appointment to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications but from what I know of what is suggested here, there was no explicit commitment.

I will follow up with Mr. Nugent separately after the meeting. I want to be fair and not land anybody here in trouble but I want to get that answer.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am happy to engage.

This organisation still feels it is entitled to €70,000 it did not get and we need to find the answer to that. I will follow up with Mr. Nugent after the meeting and possibly send an email later today to get clarification on that.

When the legal cases were withdrawn, IFI would have done work on those cases regarding the extent of the damage that was done and what it would take to remediate it. All of that was the kind of stuff that would be presented in court so that if there was a conviction, there would be the appropriate fine and compensation. In the absence of that, there is no income. Some of these things will take years to remediate where there is damage. Has this work been done in each of these cases IFI was about to take to court?

What is the process for remediation or where is the funding to come from in the absence of a successful case that would require remediation work, or the cost of the remediation work, as a consequence for the people prosecuted had there been a successful prosecution?

Mr. Barry Fox

As I alluded to earlier, many of the cases we have had to withdraw are fisheries protection cases. There are a small number of environmental cases. Where there is habitat damage, if an award is not made in court, we will take the money from our operations development fund and do the work to reinstate that habitat ourselves.

With regard to a fish kill, the unfortunate thing is that there is generally no damage to the habitat itself. It is just an input of deleterious matter that will kill the fish in a specific area. They will recruit back into that area over time. In general, we know every stock in those areas. Natural recruitment into those areas will occur over time.

It will take years. Is not just the fish that are lost; there is damage to the whole ecosystem.

Mr. Barry Fox

Yes, absolutely. It takes a number of years for that to rejuvenate.

IFI has to carry that cost. Has it evaluated that cost in those particular cases? I accept that, in some cases, the habitat will repair itself naturally, if possible, although it will take time. However, has IFI evaluated some of those cases in which it has had to do remediation?

Mr. Barry Fox

I am not aware of any cases in which that was required within these particular cases but I can certainly look into it and get back to the Deputy.

I ask Mr. Fox to please do so. What is IFI's sanctioned number of staff?

Ms Suzanne Campion

320.

Has there been any increase in that?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We moved from 312 to 320 in 2023.

Has IFI made an argument for additional staff?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We have made a couple of arguments over recent years based on our previous corporate plan, which runs until 2025, and on a request to take on additional functions and roles. Our current plan under the new strategy is, as I mentioned earlier on, to look at where we and the board believe we should focus our resources. We intend to do further work this year and to develop a further business case for increased resources.

How many additional staff did IFI look for and in what areas?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I will defer to the head of HR.

Ms Paula Byrne

I may not have all of the details. I know that, together with a report from Mazars, a letter was submitted in June 2022 requesting an increase of 258 in the organisation's headcount. In a secondary report submitted in May 2023, the requested increase had been reduced to 119.5. There was a scale-up of new recruits of 118.5 out of that 119.5. In the secondary report, the number was revised to 119.5.

How many were recruited?

Ms Paula Byrne

We currently have 320.

Has IFI got any of the 119.5?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

We got an increase of eight.

The organisation looked for 258, reduced that request to 119.5 and got eight. Can we get a copy of that report?

Ms Paula Byrne

Is the Deputy asking about the Mazars report?

Yes. The human resources subcommittee did not meet at all in 2022. Has that changed now? Are there routine meetings?

Ms Suzanne Campion

The board is still in formation. It has not decided anything about any particular committees. The audit and risk committee is operating as normal. Under the EY governance arrangements, there are three other committees.

There were no HR management subcommittee meetings in 2023 or in 2024 to date.

Ms Suzanne Campion

No.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

In 2023, we had the two section 18 appointees, that is, two members acting as the board. They would have met directly and had board meetings with all of the senior management team to discuss a range of issues. The new board has been in place in January. I would think that it will get to that but there are priorities with EY. It has already set up three subcommittees dealing with the EY programme. It has also set up an audit and risk committee. That is where we are at with the committees and the board.

I noticed a figure in IFI's opening statement when I was reading it before the meeting. It states that there has been a dramatic fall in the number of wild salmon returning to Ireland from 1.76 million in 1975 to 171,700 in 2022, a drop of nearly 90%. That is obviously concerning. I am not an expert in this. Dr. Gallagher is a scientist and I am not. However, I take it that the cause of this issue lies beyond Irish territorial waters. Is that correct?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I will give the Cathaoirleach a brief flavour of what is involved here. We have 144 designated salmon rivers and the population in each of those, in your local river, has been genetically isolated since the Ice Age. While that is the overall figure for Ireland, we really manage individual rivers. We track those each year.

Is Dr. Gallagher saying the salmon come back to the same river each year?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

They come back to the same river each year and the same populations go out. Some rivers are still at a reasonable conservation status, although not as many as we would like, while some are really poor. That contributes to the overall population. The big issue is what has happened in the ocean. In the 1970s, for every 100 juveniles that went out into the ocean, 20 adults would come back. Now, for every 100 that go out, you will generally get five back.

Is that a result of dragnet fishing or something else?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

All of the different pressures are contributing but it is generally thought that it probably has to do with a change in the ocean.

Is that the ocean temperature?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

No one can put their finger on it because it has to do with the climate. It could be that climate change is not only affecting the salmon but also their food source or that other predators are moving in. It is a complex situation. It is the same for eels. They have suffered a similar sort of drop.

It is amazing that they go back to the same rivers. We humans need maps but they are able to figure it out. Dr. Gallagher's written submission states:

In June, IFI will be hosting, on behalf of the State, a week-long event focused on the plight of salmon, in partnership with the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation. There, State actors and NGOs will discuss and agree plans for the management of ... [the] species.

What other countries are involved in that?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

It is a treaty between all of the Atlantic basin states so it is the US, Canada, Norway, Greenland, Denmark in respect of the Faroes, the EU and now the UK. We sit with the EU. We are party to the treaty under the EU.

Do fishing practices have anything to do with the falling number of salmon returning as adults?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

The proportion of that has not been determined. Whether the Cathaoirleach is talking about high seas fisheries or fisheries by-catch, there is no exact figure. It has been investigated a number of times but it is very difficult in light of the size of the ocean. When you consider all the populations of fish in the ocean, the salmon population is small when you go out in that big ocean even though it is big in our rivers. It is therefore very hard to define how much of an impact that might be having. It potentially has an impact.

Is there any hope of improving the situation or arresting that decline?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I have hope but I may be on the optimistic side. We can see from trends in rivers that it happens. As I have mentioned, we have counters on 32 rivers. We are counting every adult coming back.

I will come to that in a minute.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

The figure varies. It goes up and down. Last year was a particularly bad year for returns.

Is river pollution within our State a factor?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There are various factors as regards the rivers. It is about the habitat. Through the water framework directive, we are improving that. The State is taking active measures. All of those measures we are taking on nitrates and under the water framework directive are attempts to contribute. Salmon will benefit from all of those. We are looking at things like barriers. Barriers are an issue because adults coming back have to make their way through these barriers and are holding up progress. In low-water conditions-----

We are talking about weirs and so on.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

They get stuck below barriers in low-water drought conditions. That makes it hard to pass through. Juveniles coming down the way have similar problems. A lot of effort is being put in to, as I would put it, manage the manageables that we can manage.

A capital fund of €110 million was announced to help fish migration.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes.

It is removing some of the barriers.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes.

Pollution in Irish rivers is a factor.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Yes.

Without going into any detail, are there signs that because of the measures being taken in agriculture and so on, it is improving or deteriorating overall?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

Overall, we can refer to the EPA figures on water quality and we can see the issues. We are losing those pristine-----

On the salmon rivers.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

On the salmon rivers, I cannot give an overall figure. As I said, it is up and down in different catchments.

What is the general picture? This is what I am trying to ascertain.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

The general picture of the salmon population is of decline. We are not getting any big bounce back from the measures we take. Various factors affect this. I have to give credit to Ireland in this regard. When we go to international meetings-----

But it is deteriorating.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

It is deteriorating. The Cathaoirleach is asking me what we are doing and whether the actions we are taking having an impact. When I see what Ireland has done with regard to the management of salmon, control of the regulations and all of these measures, I would say that Ireland's salmon management regime is probably one of the finest, if not the finest, that is out there with regard to Atlantic salmon.

From Dr. Gallagher's point of view as the deputy CEO and as someone with a scientific background, what is the worst form of pollution that is causing these problems in the salmon rivers? If Dr. Gallagher were to identify one or two things what would they be?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

It is nitrates phosphates change and the impact of climate change. It also comes back to the fact that the second-highest pressure on rivers is hydromorphology, which is the physical river structure. This is with regard to the barriers and other such bits and pieces, including drain channels. A lot of man-made interventions are having an impact on watercourses.

Is Dr. Gallagher saying it is tributaries being cleared and all of that?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

If we look at the history, back in the day we had abundance. All of the drain channels are under the OPW. Various pieces of work have been done and I recognise the need for this with regard to flooding. Trying to do restoration programmes and help the habitat is another big area of work.

I want to ask about the count of salmon coming back. Someone who knows more about this than I do told me there may be an issue with the count in that not all the salmon coming back up the stream are being counted because the counter may be on part of the river. Is it electronic?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There are electronic counters.

How sure can IFI be about the figures? The figure that jumped out at me from the opening statement was that there has been almost exactly a 90% drop. How sure can we be that it is accurate? I hope it is not accurate because it would be better if it is not. Do we have an accurate means of counting?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

It is always a question because, as someone used to say to me, we are not counting cans of beans on a shelf. We are counting all of these fish coming back in 140 rivers. We have counters of various types. Many of them are full cross-river counters, which count all the fish, and then we have some partial counters. In the case of partial counters there is free passage on either side of the counters, with fish going over them in the centre. We do experimental work to look at the proportion that moves to each side to get a count. We have numbers coming back. We also rely on angling returns. The other piece of information we take is that we survey using electrofishing to see how many juveniles are in particular parts of the catchment. This tells us how well the returned adults and their progeny are doing. All of these pieces of information are looked at annually for 144 rivers. This includes anglers' returns. It is not just one piece of information that adds into how things are doing.

Do I take it that electronic counters are only on certain rivers?

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There are 31 or 32 counters on certain rivers. Other rivers are not suitable for counters.

With regard to the €110 million, its allocation highlights there is a significant problem with fish coming back upstream and obstacles. It has been reported in the media that 7,200 of the 73,000 barriers identified nationally will likely require removal or mitigation. This will contribute towards getting nature back into better shape. What is the timeline for carrying out this work? Obviously there is a bit of urgency with this if we have a 90% collapse. The numbers coming back upstream have collapsed.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

There is a bit of an urgency. The measure spoken about will benefit salmon but the measure we are working on is really driven by the water framework directive. It comes back to the Cathaoirleach's earlier question about water quality. The second highest pressure is hydromorphological and barriers are part of this. The programme we have will run until 2027. Over this period, 257 of the barriers will be mitigated. I believe this is what was stated.

I am asking this in the context of flood relief works, which are not under the remit of IFI as they are with the OPW. It takes an inordinate amount of time, perhaps ten or 20 years, to get them up and running. Dr. Gallagher is happy enough to state that the most important barriers will be removed in the next four to five years.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

To remove all the barriers in Irish rivers could take 50 years. It is this scale of a problem. We have a prioritisation process that looks at which barriers we can do in a particular period. This is not only about salmon. It is about a lot of things. It is about trying to make sure we take out the lowest barrier. A range of criteria drive which ones we pick first.

While salmon and fish are one element of it, a big thing about rivers is to make them naturally flowing. Rivers have a process with all their gravels, sediments and habitat, which move down through the rivers. If we look below or above a barrier we can see the impounded water and the changing habitat when we block this process. The driver is largely to make sure not only that fish can pass but that they have a suitable habitat when they get up and down. There are a large number of benefits.

Some of these measures are very low-hanging fruit. We work with many organisations. Bridges were often built with a culvert on the bridge and a big step in front of the bridge. When we or other agencies start to do work on bridges we work to make sure the fix is put in at that stage. Culverts under roads are another barrier. We look to work with the roads authority and various people to mitigate these measures. I have to say it is not just about IFI, as we need partnership with many agencies to get this work done.

I thank Dr Gallagher. Does Deputy Catherine Murphy have another question?

Does IFI work with the county development plans? Getting these measures included as key priorities when design is happening will be important. I doubt IFI will be taking down the hydroelectric dam in Leixlip or the reservoir that is behind it. There are things such as these.

Dr. Cathal Gallagher

I have to acknowledge there is a bypass fish channel planned for Ardnacrusha on the Shannon, which is a large investment. It is a partnership between the ESB, the OPW and IFI, driven by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. This is the level of effort that is planned to go into catchments to try to help mitigate some of the impacts of some of the important developments for the State at that time and trying to make sure we can get fish through the passages.

This concludes our questioning. The phrase "a lot done and more to do" would be appropriate. I thank the witnesses and the staff from Inland Fisheries Ireland and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications for the work involved in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office staff for attending and assisting the committee today. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings for today's meetings? Agreed.

We will suspend until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume to deal with correspondence and any other business. There are a few fairly important items for the meeting in the afternoon.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.09 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.
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