Skip to main content
Normal View

Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2023

Report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome Mr. Gerard Brady from the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, and Mr. Ian Talbot and Mr. Shane Conneely from Chambers Ireland.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate in meetings where he or she does not adhere to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I invite Mr. Brady to give his opening statement.

Mr. Gerard Brady

I thank the Chair for the invitation to IBEC to appear before the committee.

We are grateful for the opportunity to appear before the committee today to examine chapters 9 to 12, inclusive, of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report. The report comes at a crucial time. Our current economic uncertainties aside, the remainder of the decade will see significant ambitions being put in place for the economy in areas such as decarbonisation, digitalisation, increased competition for mobile investment, the prospect of a rapidly ageing population, overconcentration of the tax base and the impact of future global tax reform, which is very close at hand. These changes will have significant implications for fiscal policy. Over the coming decade, the focus of fiscal policy must be on policy that is not just sustainable in the narrow sense of debt and deficits but which takes a broader perspective on producing sustainable economic, social and environmental outcomes. For this reason, a balance must be struck between this narrow and broad sense of fiscal sustainability.

Chapter 9 of the report is titled Promoting Enterprise. IBEC recognises that business tax reform has a significant role to play in supporting Irish firms to grow and improve productivity. There are several levers within the tax system that can be used to help overcome some of the broader systemic disadvantages facing our indigenous business community. These include improved tax incentives to deepen the market for equity investment, encouragement for share options and similar schemes through the tax system, and enhanced investment incentives in areas such as research and development, low-carbon technologies and advanced manufacturing. To this end, IBEC broadly welcomes the commission’s recommendations to promote enterprise and business growth in Ireland, in particular the recommendations targeted at encouraging the founding and scaling of startups and SMEs, the promotion of research and development, driving innovation and increasing efficiency among Irish businesses. It is important to reiterate the commission’s finding that, while existing tax incentives for research and development, promoting equity financing, and enabling staff recruitment among startup and micro-enterprises are good in principle, they must be simplified.

Regarding changes to the social protection and income tax systems, IBEC acknowledges the need for reform to ensure the social insurance system is resilient both to potential shocks and to account for the inevitable increase in demands on the fund from an ageing population. These challenges will inevitably require greater levels of funding. Having said this, the cumulative impacts of labour market policy measures are causing concern among our members. The roll-out of auto-enrolment, the living wage, pensions, statutory sick pay, changes to the pension age, pay-linked social welfare and other leave proposals already announced will add significantly to labour costs over the coming decade. While these changes will be implemented across the whole economy, for many companies in domestic-facing sectors, particularly the SME community, the cost of implementing increased pensions coverage and wage floors will be higher. While many of the additions to the social wage have merits on their own terms, if phased correctly, they represent a major change in the Irish labour market model. The ongoing lack of co-ordination regarding their phasing is causing major concern among our members, especially in the current economic environment. In this context, IBEC wishes to emphasise the report's acknowledgement in recommendation 11.2 that:

There is a need to coordinate and manage the phased introduction of such reforms. The Commission therefore recommends the establishment of appropriate coordination mechanisms to monitor the cumulative effect of policy ... changes on enterprise.

Mr. Ian Talbot

I thank the Chair and committee members for the invitation both to make a submission and to be here this afternoon.

Broadly, Chambers Ireland supports the recommendations of the chapters of the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare that we are investigating today. Specifically, we agree it is necessary to broaden the tax base. When taxation focuses too much on a narrow range of economic activities, this can lead to erratic Exchequer returns when even minor economic shocks affect them. Given that Ireland is a small, open economy we experience far more economic volatility than is to be expected in other states. Consequently, a prudent approach to take regarding our tax base would be to ensure it is even broader than what would be typical of a larger, less trade-reliant country.

As we saw following the housing bust of the late 2000s and the associated crash in stamp duty payments, relying disproportionately on any particular sector makes Government finances fragile. Chapter 9, Promoting Enterprise, is the area where we have the strongest views. It is hard for us to comment on promoting enterprise without mentioning commercial rates and other sources of local government funding, such as local property tax. We hope to have a future opportunity to discuss these matters which are covered in other chapters.

Ireland’s continued over-reliance on the corporation taxes receipts of a handful of companies to support current expenditure means that even when our economy is strong, our national accounts are brittle. Changes in US domestic tax codes could greatly impact our State’s capacity to deliver services for our people.

While there is a need to diversify our tax base, diversity can take many forms, and Chambers Ireland’s position is that our domestic economy underperforms. That underperformance of our domestic economy is part of our overreliance discussions. Government and the State need to have a greater focus on ensuring our cities and towns become attractive places to live and work. A diversified, thriving domestic economy will leave us less vulnerable to external shocks.

A feature of Irish public enterprise policy has been an overly tight focus on early-stage high-risk businesses. While those firms are an important part of the economy, that strategy will not create a broad and robust public finance environment as very few companies will qualify for admittance into such a category, and by their nature most will not succeed to the point that their taxes become a notable share of corporate tax yield. Therefore, even if such a strategy is a net positive for economic growth, all else being equal, the Exchequer will continue to rely on the same few large companies for the bulk of corporation tax.

We were glad the commission recommended that tax-based policies have a role in supporting productivity and employment growth among SMEs. However, we regret the executive summary’s editorialisation that they should be targeted towards early-stage, high-risk and research and development-intensive businesses. These two areas are important, but in the first case they are unlikely to become taxpayers given the high failure rate of failure. Meanwhile the research-related tax credits have, in practice, only proven to be useful for larger firms.

It is highly likely that a successful new business will be part of an evolution of old sectoral business practices rather than a disrupter of a sector. If we were cynical, we would suspect that restricting tax policy measures to a limited set of high-potential firms is a means of avoiding using tax-based measures to support new firms while not explicitly saying that is the aim. In contrast, a broad-based economic growth strategy that works for businesses across sectors and sizes of firms has a greater chance of growing the one euro in six of corporation tax that comes from locally owned companies than a strategy reliant on unicorns.

In the meantime, Chambers Ireland supports the use of excess corporation tax receipts to fund our long-neglected infrastructure investment. This much-needed investment will be far more expensive if funded through debt. We will need to support that investment, even if excess returns drop off. If corporation taxes are being spent, it is vital that they should be invested in capital rather than funding current expenditure. We strongly advocate for sustainable infrastructure that will reduce the hidden productivity and competitiveness costs associated with congestion, poor housing, childcare and energy supply uncertainty. Infrastructure investment is the most effective way to ensure future decades will experience fewer constraints on growth.

Where it is not possible to finance such projects in the short run, the State should create a climate transition infrastructure financing entity where the excess corporation tax receipts can be sequestered.

I thank Mr. Brady and Mr. Talbot for their submissions.

I thank both witnesses for their presentations. Do they have any views, even anecdotal, on what has accounted for the disappearing workforce over the period of the Covid pandemic? Have those gaps been filled? Where do we stand on that?

Mr. Gerard Brady

We have seen reports of a disappearing workforce, particularly older workers in countries across Europe, in the US and the UK. We have not seen it happen as much in the Irish workforce. We have seen an extra 250,000 people in employment over the period of the recession because of Covid. We have also seen significant increases in participation rates, especially among younger workers.

In a sense, Ireland has almost bucked the trend versus other countries across Europe and particularly the US, where they have seen this. We see increased barriers to participation in the workforce, especially to people further towards retirement. Caring responsibilities are the number one issue that comes up with us with our members. Increasingly, the cost and time involved in caring responsibilities for workers both of children and older people is the biggest barrier we see to people joining the workforce. That is where we see the major challenges.

Mr. Shane Conneely

Just to emphasise that point, one of the great benefits we saw happening within the Irish labour market over the Covid period was the engagement of both older and younger women in the workforce. In particular, the 16 to 22 age group had a marked increase in the number of women engaged, but also in that kind of post-childrearing period, which has a low level of labour force participation for-----

I get all that, but then why were we so short-staffed?

Mr. Gerard Brady

Demand is probably the reason. We added 250,000 workers in under three years. It is probably the fastest period of labour growth we have had in terms of demand for workers since the late 1990s. It is a function of how strong the economic growth has been throughout the period. In other countries, such as the UK, for example, where they have seen major downturns, it can be written off to lack of migration, Brexit and many other issues. Here it is demand. There is so much demand from our members for workers because there is strong growth. It is a sign of a strongly growing economy. The other side of it is that for a number of years we more or less had a tap turned off in terms of inward migration. That was a challenge, particularly with visas. It is an issue that is being fixed now and we are getting better, but it was a major blockage for a number of years.

I will keep my questions short because we are time limited, and if the witnesses could be tight as well on the answers, I would appreciate it. I refer to the digital and tech sector. I passed by Grand Canal Dock and there are the corporate headquarters and the Google buildings. I do not mean to single them out. It struck me that everything has kind of come to a standstill there. I could be incorrect. Where is Ireland with regard to job losses in the tech sector?

Mr. Shane Conneely

Relative to other states, we are doing pretty well. The thing to consider within the tech sector is that it is a global market and a global talent market as well. As expensive as IT talent is in Ireland, it is relatively less expensive than other competitor markets. The cost of employing people in Los Angeles will be considerably more than in Dublin. That is a factor or feature within it. Therefore, we have not been as greatly affected as other parts of the world.

Mr. Gerard Brady

On tech, from 2019, we saw growth of almost 30% in employment in the sector. That has fallen back a bit and there has obviously been threats of redundancies or actual redundancies in the sector, which is very unfortunate for those involved. Taking the broad view over two or three years, however, we are still probably up 20,000 workers in the sector. There is the global element of the cyclicality of the sector and it is facing a downturn for a number of reasons, rising interest rates being one of them. It is still a sector where, if one thinks about it over the long term, it has added a huge number of jobs and probably will continue to do that into the future. It is not a declining sector; it is a sector that is facing a cyclical challenge.

Both IBEC and Chambers referenced improving the tax base and broadening it. What is their view of the 30% tax rate that is mooted in particular quarters?

Mr. Ian Talbot

That is not what I have in mind by broadening the tax base. Broadening the tax base is introducing different types of taxation, for example, that are appropriate to modern economy. We have a tendency to tax labour, which we are talking about at the 30% rate, and we do not tend to tax pollution and usage as effectively as other countries. When I talk about widening the tax base, I am not talking about playing with the income tax system.

What would Mr. Talbot think of a 30% tax rate?

Mr. Ian Talbot

I have no strong views either way. I think it will have limited impact on employment, to be honest. I think back to when I started work and tax rates went up from 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% to 70%-plus marginal rates. We do not want to get back to that either. Keeping tax simple makes it much more understandable for people as well. However, that is only tinkering around a little bit and helping certain sectors. Widening the tax base is something fundamentally different.

Mr. Gerard Brady

We have not expressed a strong view on the 30%. In previous budget submissions, we said that where we see the change in income tax probably is indexing the top rate closer to the average wage as the entry point into the top rate. We do not have a specific preference on how that is done. In previous budget submissions, we have always focused on that as the key issue we see in the labour market.

This is my second term on the Committee on Budgetary Oversight. I spent almost the entire period of the previous committee trying to persuade the Minister to put corporation tax aside and it was not done. The Minister for Finance put €4 billion aside yesterday or the day before. Different political hues make a difference politically. That is a political point and I am not inviting the witnesses to comment on that.

I am interested in what was said on infrastructure. We had representatives from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, before the committee. I asked them specifically why we do not put some of that money into extending and expanding the DART underground, expanding the Metro down south into places such as my constituency, and expanding the Luas. All of this is planned but until after 2040. That is one question.

Both groups recognised in their reports the cost of ageing to the population and the implications for the health budget as a result of those costs. Around 2010, PwC in Australia did a big report on investment in wellness and how it was basically a virtuous cycle. We do not seem to have caught on to that yet in Ireland. If we invest more in wellness, we might not spend as much on health. What are the witnesses’ views on that as business representatives and business leaders?

The first question is the corporation tax spend on infrastructure projects and the second is on wellness.

Mr. Gerard Brady

Briefly on both of them, we have been very strong supporters of further investment in infrastructure. Without commenting on particular projects, there are projects still outstanding both within the current capital envelope and outside of it that could be pushed on. There is a balance in corporation tax. We have an excess of it, but not all of it needs to be put away. Some of it could be spent usefully on infrastructure.

On wellness, we work very closely with members. We have a KeepWell Mark that basically gives members guidance on how to improve wellness in the workplace. I am happy to talk about that in more detail at another time. We are very involved in it at the moment and we are seeing increasing demand from companies that are becoming more aware of it over time.

Mr. Ian Talbot

As the Deputy can imagine, we get many demands from our network for their local projects. We are very focused on the macro level, if you like. During the 2008-2012 crisis and beyond, we saw that Government stripped capital investment to the core. We are now suffering for that lack of that capital investment then, and in particular, areas no less than housing. We did not build much in the way of housing. We were virtually building nothing but stand-alone housing during much of that period. We are calling for investment to carry on regardless. We need to keep investing in the economy. That is a very strong message for us. It is not just about things like the Deputy mentioned, such as the rail projects, which we believe are vitally important. Of course, the longer we leave things, the harder it is to get them done. There is much controversy now, for example, with the Galway ring road and what the alternatives in Galway might need to be. In addition, we have to look at things such as wind farms. We are concerned about the planning environment, for example, to unlock the huge potential for offshore wind in this country and create fabulous infrastructure that it is to be hoped will give us energy security, cheaper energy and keep the economy and consumers going. We have to keep going with infrastructure investment no matter what the cycle is and things like taxes and so on. We have to keep investing.

On ageing and wellness, we are certainly the same as IBEC in that we are encouraging our members to consider not only the likes of the physical health of the workforce but also their mental health. These matters are very important.

Sports facilities probably suffered during the last crisis. It is great to see the Government investing in them now around the country. We need to get people out. Covid has been good for getting people to engage in walking and other such activities. Some good came of it. It is important to bear ageing in mind. We have listened with great interest to the debate on the pension age, considering that people are living longer. Such issues are very topical. Employers cannot solve these problems on their own, but we can do the best for the workforce.

I saw that 42% of our energy in January came from wind.

Mr. Ian Talbot

That offers great potential, too.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht os comhair an choiste.

My first question is for Mr. Brady but all the delegates could probably answer it. It relates to a research and development tax credit and how it could be targeted better to assist SMEs. When I met IBEC representatives in the west, this was raised with me. I am quite interested in it. Based on my conversations, I note people just cannot get the credit. What are the biggest barriers?

Mr. Gerard Brady

It is a major issue for us. We believe the research and development tax credit is very important at all levels but we see that many of our member companies that do research and development and should qualify for the credit are not using it. The reason they are not using it, and therefore are not doing more research and development, is that it is too difficult for an SME to use the scheme. We hear time and again that the value got from the credit by a company that does a small amount of research and development and wants to scale up might be less than what would be spent claiming it if accountants and others had to be hired. Therefore, there is a genuine difficulty in trying to get firms that really should be using it and would benefit from it, particularly SMEs, to use it more. That is the main challenge.

The solution is quite obvious from our perspective. The OECD made recommendations on this in its SME review a number of years ago. In the UK, including Northern Ireland, there is a scheme that members of ours use and believe works very well. I am referring to a separate research and development tax credit for SMEs. We have campaigned for such a credit for some years. The scheme has pro forma forms in respect of its administration that give companies greater comfort that they will not be audited on the back of the credit when they first use it. This is a major fear of many small companies. The credit effectively costs a lot less to use for small firms. There is a huge amount that could be done in this regard but ultimately we believe a separate scheme is needed. We went through this in terms of state aid – in respect of budget 19, I believe. It was announced that there would be changes but that has fallen by the wayside in the years since. We have not seen it come through. A separate scheme is possible in other European countries and would work really well here.

I thank Mr. Brady for that. I just want to touch on those points, and then I will get the views of Chambers Ireland on the matter. I am being told our scheme is far too cumbersome and just does not end up delivering value for money. The point on having a separate tax credit for SMEs is interesting. I have been thinking about whether there is scope for having an independent agency to advise SMEs on this, including on whether their proposals meet the criteria. Perhaps a fee could be paid for assisting with the application. An agency of the kind in question was established in Britain although I think it might have been shut down by the Tories. It was called the Office of Tax Simplification. It made recommendations on how the tax code could be simplified. Could such a proposal emerge in an Irish context? Is the other proposal more suitable?

Mr. Gerard Brady

We think the Office of Tax Simplification was really useful in the UK. I was very surprised when the Conservative Government shut it down. First, it was not long running but it had received a huge amount of positive feedback from businesses and stakeholders in that it was effectively set up to think small first when it came to taxation. Having regard to all the issues we hear over and over regarding SMEs that should be using schemes designed for them but do not because they are too complicated, the office tried to figure out how to simplify the tax system and code. It focused not just on the legislation but also on the running of the system. One approach to this is giving pre-approval for research and development claims. Assuring people they will not be audited on their first few claims until they are used to dealing with all the administration involved with the research and development tax credit is another of the ways that could improve circumstances for SMEs and that would be very useful. We lobbied for the replication of the Office of Tax Simplification in Ireland. That it was shut down in the UK obviously makes it tougher to argue for now, but it worked really well. It was an independent body that was non-political inasmuch as it could be.

Do we have any projections for potential employment, including in the regions and not just our cities and other urban spaces, if we really assisted small companies in investing in research and development so they could take off in many senses? I realise it could be difficult to make projections.

Mr. Gerard Brady

I have seen studies from other countries. Here we examine the return on investment from the research and development tax credit. The Department of Finance did a study some years ago that showed a ratio of 2.4:1. Therefore, for every €1 in tax credit claimed by a company, its return on research and development was 2.4 times greater. In the UK, studies from Professor John Van Reenen and some other academics in the London School of Economics suggest the return on investment is much higher for SMEs, with a three- or four-fold return on tax credits for research and development for SMEs where they work. The key challenge relates not to the attractiveness of the credit but to the ability to use it in the first instance. If this were fixed, we would see a good return on investment, as we have overall under our research and development tax credit scheme. It is probably greater for SMEs, the international evidence suggests. I am happy to share it with the committee.

Mr. Ian Talbot

The Deputy has some really interesting lines of thought on this. There is a large overlap in members in that plenty of the Deputy's constituency companies are members of both IBEC and Galway Chamber, which do a great job in Galway.

The independent agency idea raises the question of what all the agencies in existence are doing. Enterprise Ireland, for example, has a limited number of companies that it considers. They have to be high-potential start-ups. There is a sense that there is an intention to grow the remit of the local enterprise offices, bringing the figure from up to ten to up to 40 or 50, but I believe that was always the intention. Based on Putting People First, from 2014, it was always the intention and we are only getting around to it. If the structure is kept reasonably simple and straightforward, companies will find ways to use it very quickly. Both my organisation and IBEC have people on the ground who can do exactly what the Deputy is proposing, which is to point people towards things. The simpler they are, the more effective people will be in using them.

Take our experience with Covid, for example. The wage subsidy schemes were pretty straightforward. All the schemes, including the pandemic unemployment payment scheme, were kept straightforward and large numbers of people were able to draw down the payments very quickly. There has been good follow-up by the Revenue Commissioners to make sure claims were valid and so on. If schemes are kept simple, people very quickly adapt and apply.

A point well made in the commission's report concerned the simplification of the tax code. It was 1997 when we had the last consolidation of the tax code. We have had over 20 Finance Acts since then. Therefore, the code has become enormously complicated again. It would make it easier for everyone, including the Revenue Commissioners, I am sure, if we could get it back to square one again, with a single Act covering things. Some such ideas in the report are very good.

To go back to the core question of who is out there to help companies, there are many people out there to help them but this help needs to be reasonably straightforward to achieve the objective. The more complicated it is made, the more difficult it will be for companies. Companies do not have time and they will more likely invest the time they do have in something that is more likely to pay off.

Another conundrum raised concerned the projections for the potential for employment. Until the layoffs in the technology sector started a few months ago, we were almost at full employment. I think we probably effectively still are. Research and development promises to improve the quality of employment as much as bringing new people into the workforce. It is about people getting better jobs and doing better things.

Mr. Gerard Brady

There will be interesting debates about things like artificial intelligence, AI, and robotics and whether these technologies are a threat or an opportunity. There may well be jobs, though, where organisations are finding it really hard to recruit people to work in them at those levels. From the employers' perspective, this is about the additional costs being put into place in the context of pension auto-enrolment, sick leave pay and everything else coming through. These are all noble in themselves but there may just be an opportunity for robotics and AI to play a very productive improved role, and, again, to improve the quality of jobs and the pay that people are getting for doing their work. We have a tremendously educated workforce now. It is staggering what we have done over the last 30 to 40 years in terms of the number of people educated. I am not quite talking off the top of my head. When I left school, I think about 27,000 people, or something like that figure, went to college that year. There are now approximately 600,000 people going to college annually. This is extraordinary. These people want quality jobs and quality work too. Again, in this context, research and development activity, for example, gives them an opportunity to work in small companies on something interesting.

I have a different question on what Mr. Brady said about making things simplistic in the context of the wage support schemes and things like that. One of the issues raised with me a bit has concerned the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, and people finding it difficult. People have come to me - butchers in particular, but this could be something that is across the board although I am not sure - to tell me they did not have any electricity bill statements. Is this something that is coming up very frequently? One butcher told me that he was unable to get money back because there was no proof in the form that he needed and that he should have spent it from his bank. The point is that he could not get TBESS. He said there may be other people who also might not have that information. Through their accountant, they have been told to do it this way. They are not, therefore, getting TBESS payments and they have just paid thousands of euro extra in electricity costs. I refer as well to people using liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, or oil. These are two other big aspects in the west that have been raised with me. On these specific issues, I ask the witnesses to touch on how people and businesses, of which they are aware, have been impacted and also if this scheme is more complex to apply for.

Mr. Shane Conneely

There does seem to be a sort of a pattern. We see this throughout the report as well. Often, the supports available are so complicated that they are not practical and not useful to small businesses. Part of my commentary in our submission is that much of this is a feature and not a bug of these processes. Very often with schemes like the key employee engagement programme, KEEP, to which we suggest amendments in every budget, it is accepted that there will be amendments but these are so slight that it is still not an effective scheme in the next cycle. These things are frequently put in place to allow it to be said that a support is in place, however impossible it might be to get the benefit from it. This is something the report itself highlights, but it is repeated across programmes such as TBESS. These things are done but they are not done so they can be useful. Within State bodies, there is often a great deal of concern about how effective these measures could be, because if they are too effective they will cost the Exchequer and therefore in their creation these schemes are constructed so that they are difficult to use. We need to move beyond this situation.

Our member businesses are doing tremendously well across the country. Over the last several years when we have been contacted from places like Galway, Louth or south-west Dublin businesses have told us they have been having difficulties. Often, they are so busy that they cannot take the benefits that are on offer. The refrain we hear in response to this situation and complaints about it is that these businesses must not have needed these supports if they did not have the time to apply for them. It could frequently be the case, however, that we would find dozens of hours going into something that may or may not pay back that effort. One of the elements in this context is that there is a huge risk factor. People can put their time into submitting these applications without necessarily knowing if the pay-off will come. One of the things we did like about recommendation 9.7 concerned the advanced assurance mechanism being proposed for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment where businesses could engage with a professional who could give them a sense of whether something would be worth doing. This approach would also be very useful in the research and development context. A small business starting off on this track will find it a huge challenge to get into and understand how this research and development credit system can work. Having supports in place to help to guide applicants through this process, therefore, will be very important to make it effective.

I do not need exact examples of specific businesses but is this something that has been raised with the witnesses in the context of the points I have made? I ask because sometimes it is hard to get businesses to come forward in this regard.

Mr. Gerard Brady

On TBESS, the three major points have come back. One may relate to the butcher example the Deputy used. People who pay their energy bills through their rent are not qualifying. These are situations where the landlord pays the bill and the enterprises concerned then pay the required amount for those energy costs as part of their rent payment. We have heard this point from lots of companies, particularly SMEs, that do not qualify for this very reason. The other major point raised is the reference period set for the scheme. This was fixed at a time when gas prices had already spiked. By its nature, therefore, many people do not qualify for the scheme in this context. We also have many companies that do not pay their bills monthly. They paid them instead quarterly or bimonthly. These payments will probably come through at some point. Regarding the last issue on LPG and oil use, this is probably a particular concern in the west and north west because of the way the gas infrastructure on the island is laid out. There is no gas network in this region, and this means those businesses reliant on other fuels do not necessarily qualify for this scheme.

Deputy Farrell's time is up.

Okay. To finish the point, regarding what Mr. Brady said about people paying their bills through their rent, I did not know about this issue because this was not something raised with me. The point I heard about was that the electricity provider had left the Irish market.

Mr. Gerard Brady

Presumably a bill could not be acquired as a result. On the landlord aspect, we can send on a letter that we recently submitted to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the other issues in this regard.

Great. I thank the witnesses so much.

On that aspect, why is it complex that businesses would pay the landlord for energy?

Mr. Gerard Brady

If there are multiple businesses in the same building or the same complex, then the landlord might pay the heating, for example, and all those businesses then pay the landlord. This is a common enough practice.

Could the landlord avail of this support?

Mr. Gerard Brady

No, landlords are banned from claiming TBESS. They do not qualify, so they could not pass on refunds to people. The landlord does not qualify, full stop, so nobody in the building qualifies if it is the landlord paying the fuel bills.

I am aware of that quirk or anomaly, if I can describe it as such. It has been raised in the media this week. I saw the relevant statement and I think it was timely. There is a way this issue can be addressed. We could define "commercial landlord" in the legislation. Clearly, many of these supports were developed quickly and when moving quickly and without an evidential basis, it is necessary to be careful about how we proceed. I would be surprised if 20% of the quantum of moneys allocated by the Department had been drawn down now. The latest figures I have access to suggest that about 15,000 claims have been processed and maybe about 12,500 to 13,000 payments have been made. There has been much criticism from constituents regarding the operation of this scheme for the reasons Mr. Brady pointed out. I know that was not an exhaustive list and there are also other reasons.

Given we are on the subject, there is likelihood the TBESS may be revised, amended or even extended in its current format. There is no case for doing the latter because it is simply not working in the way Ministers would have liked. How would our guests change it? The question might be more appropriately put as follows: what would our guests do if they had the responsibility to design a scheme that would be more effective than the TBESS?

Mr. Shane Conneely

Prior to the budget we were in here lobbying various parties on this issue and we were hoping the supports that would come in would be linked to the employment levels within the firm, which would help, as opposed to doing it in the way it was done. It would also help for it to be targeted towards different sectors. The butcher example is one that is very common around the country. Anyone who is trying to maintain a cold chain is struggling and they were very surprised to be struggling in the way they are as well. We were flagging that in July. If the Government is going to introduce something that is going to benefit all firms to the same extent, effectively, in a flat way across the economy, it is going to help firms that do not need the help and the scheme is not going to be sufficiently targeted to affect those businesses that actually need the supports.

It is like the energy credit allocated to households. I did not need it but there are constituents of mine who needed triple the amount to allow them to manage. I was raising this all through last summer because of examples on the ground and cases I was working on myself. These included very energy-intensive manufacturing industries closing down because of the difficulties they were facing, or at least reducing their staff very substantially. In fact, existential threats were being placed on the businesses. There are other supports available outside the TBESS for those kinds of industries but I am not sure they are targeted in the right way. In any case, I thank our guests for their comments on the TBESS. I am attracted to the idea of including an employment threshold because there is a strong argument in any case for developing - I have bored successive Ministers for Finance to tears on this - a German-style Kurzarbeit scheme. We must do so if we are to maintain the levels of employment we have at the moment and ensure skill sets that are in danger of being lost, especially in manufacturing at present because of the high costs, are not lost. Those businesses need to be supported. The argument from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and others seems to be we are technically at full employment so if somebody loses their job tomorrow, he or she can maybe access another job next week. However, it will not be the same kind of job and once those skills are gone they are gone forever, so it is a decision about what kind of economic model we want and what kind of labour market model we want.

That leads me to the observation Mr. Talbot made earlier about doing things better and having better jobs. Mr. Brady is absolutely right that the evolution of the Irish labour market has been extraordinary over the last 30 years. I am glad he mentioned access to third level because the woman who introduced that wider access, Niamh Bhreathnach, passed away this week. That was a revolutionary decision and really pioneering. It ensured people from working and lower middle-class backgrounds could have the opportunity to get to university. The success of that intervention in terms of our economic model and how we have evolved since then has yet to be written.

Central to creating those better jobs and doing things better is the research and development piece. I am concerned, and have been for a number of years, about the productivity gap between the indigenous Irish enterprise sector and the multinational sector. Let us park research and development for a moment, as we are familiar with the arguments about the research and development tax credit and its efficacy for SMEs. This is a question for both Chambers Ireland and IBEC. I am trying to distil it down to a silver bullet, not that there is one. However, if our guests had the opportunity tomorrow to do something significant to ensure that the value chain was improved and that productivity levels and the productivity value of the SME sector grew and so on, what would it be? It should be something outside the research and development tax credit because we know investment in research and development leads to greater productivity, higher-value jobs and so on. We do not have that significant Mittelstand sector that is very productive. By the way, this is the trick with respect to our regional economies. Google, Facebook and large pharma companies are not going to move to certain areas of the country, so it should be our ambition to ensure certain regions of the country specialise in certain areas. That then involves our institutes of technology, our universities, our local enterprise offices, Enterprise Ireland regional offices and so on. It should be our ambition that we are encouraging indigenous firms to develop, expand and scale up in towns in the regions so they become significant employers and then support the wider local economy. We know the multiplier there is huge. It is a long-winded question but is there something we are not doing at the moment that, if we look under the bonnet, could make the engine run better?

Mr. Gerard Brady

That is a difficult question.

No pressure.

Mr. Gerard Brady

The number one issue that comes up with us as key to the success of the SME community in particular is skills, and this is especially so in regional areas. Over and over again the investment in skills is huge, and not just at third level but throughout the system in lifelong learning. It is probably not the silver bullet but one action we could take involves the National Training Fund. We have a €1 billion surplus in it that is heading for €2 billion. Giving training vouchers to SMEs to be able to say-----

To be fair, that is long-standing policy.

Mr. Gerard Brady

I say training vouchers because SMEs in particular have tight margins. There is a lot going on for them with labour market costs and one area where we could help them get through some of those costs and get a better outcome in the form of productivity, growth and all those kinds of things is training vouchers. To literally give them cash to pay for their staff's training would be huge. It is as close as possible to a silver bullet because we have a fund employers have paid into that is heading for a €2 billion surplus. It is sitting there and not being used. This is a very simple way to use it that could help SMEs and answer those questions. I am not sure it is a silver bullet but it goes some of the way.

Mr. Shane Conneely

We would go a step further and suggest the Government give it to the employees for them to use to develop their skills. One of the structural elements we must consider in the Irish market is there is a huge gender effect for women who leave the workforce. They primarily do so to look after children and then get caught up in being the carers within their broader family and never return to the paid workforce again. When they do, it is very often as part-time workers and there is a bit of an incentive mismatch between the activation of those people within the workforce and what their employers might want. We need to maximise the benefit of the existing skills base. Women my age are typically better educated than I am. We have an incredibly educated population, and women more so than ourselves as men. Therefore, the loss to the general economy from their disengagement from the workforce is very high. Employees should have a say in where they can do it. If we look at the part-time workforce, I think it is 80% women and half of those are there because we cannot facilitate their attending to caring duties. They are also vulnerable financially because any time you take out of that really affects them at the margin to skill up again. We suggest there needs to be an accompanying social protection element as well that can facilitate them if they are forced to take time out of the workforce in order to skill up as well.

As with the rest of the document, many of these policies need to be joined up. IBEC and ourselves agree with recommendation 11.2 that there needs to be co-ordinated action taken across Departments in order that these things happen in such a way that they are not all landing at once, or that supporting policies can reinforce each other.

I just wanted to ask one question. It is around the issue of taxation. I have listened closely to the witnesses and I am grateful for their comments. The one thing I have to say when I hear about broadening the tax net and all of this is that we have to think of sole traders who are operating small businesses that might not be limited companies and are paying 56% tax. At that stage those people are really asking themselves, when they are generating employment, if they are doing the right thing by continuing in the businesses they are in. I have a concern about that, taking that into account along with the increased costs, energy costs and all the other day-to-day expenses that have increased so much while running small businesses. It is just that thing of the whole tax rate, outside of limited companies.

Mr. Ian Talbot

Deputy Healy-Rae is right. Being in business on your own is a very tough place to be. There are a lot of costs and people are hopelessly limited in the time they have available. I think I am right in saying the report recommends the extra 3% tax on self-employed people should go and that the income tax rate should be equalised across the board. That is a recommendation we would certainly support. It goes back to the conversation we have been having about what more we can do to train, educate and improve businesses, help them digitalise and free up time for them to do this stuff. That is the real challenge. So many small businesses or sole traders are just running. They are on that spinning wheel the whole time and they just need to find opportunities and advice on how to get off it to improve their businesses. It is a real challenge. It goes back to the things we talked about like training vouchers, proper use of the National Training Fund and providing information on what is there. All these things will contribute and help people get that time out to do something for their business.

Mr. Gerard Brady

I would agree with what Mr. Talbot said. The biggest tax that a lot of sole traders and small businesses face is the time tax of having to jump through lots of hoops to do very simple things, or what should be very simple things. That is a major challenge. On Deputy Healy's question, the recommendation that the USC surcharge on the self-employed be removed is one we would welcome. It makes sense. It never really made sense to bring it in in the first place. It was a product of its time. The commission's recommendation in that regard is welcome.

I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

My apologies for ducking in because I have to duck out again to sit in another Chair. This comment is not apropos of anything that has taken place at this meeting but the issue was brought to my attention recently. We spend a lot of time talking about retention of staff in various places. We spend a lot of time retaining staff in the health services and the teaching services. In almost every service we supply nowadays, we are having difficulty retaining people. Someone said to me he could get a job in any of the places people are emigrating to and would pay half the tax he is paying now. Is there a need to look into what is happening there? People are going away on a very serious basis when there is no need for them to go and there are lots of opportunities at home. It is not good for the country to be haemorrhaging people like that. Is there any evidence to suggest that it is a major issue? How can we deal with it, if we can at all? It may not be appropriate for this committee but it is something we need to keep an eye on in this context.

I think the tax we pay absolutely falls within this committee's remit.

Mr. Ian Talbot

We are fighting with each other as to who should answer this first. It is a very good question. From my perspective it is very hard to look at the income tax structure and conclude that you are paying a lot of tax based on take-home pay versus gross pay. There are so many other costs in the economy, some of which are cheaper in Ireland and some of which are more expensive. For example, I take public transport into town every day. I know it is not an option for a lot of people but the €2 fare since Covid is great. I nearly feel guilty about getting on the Luas for the last bit of the journey. That is the sort of thing we need to take into account. Luxembourg has reduced public transport costs to zero. An important part of the equation is what other costs people need to incur to live their life to an acceptable standard. That encompasses things like the cost of entertainment and everything else. You cannot look at it in isolation of just the tax someone pays without, for example, bringing in whether they are paying local property tax, if they are a renter or a purchaser, or if their interest rate is going up. It is really complicated.

The big thing for us in all our submissions is quality of life and the vibrancy of cities, towns and rural environments to make Ireland somewhere people want to stay. They are not talking about the bottom line of what tax they pay, which is perhaps an invalid comparison. It finally brings us back to the cost of housing. Whether someone is having to buy or rent, the cost of housing effectively looks like a very significant increase in tax. That is a huge concern for young people. Incidentally, young Irish people have always wanted to emigrate for a couple of years. We need to let them do that and then we need to bring them back with that extra experience. Everything at the moment is kind of circling back to the housing crisis. We need affordable housing. Otherwise, it does not matter what rate of tax people pay because they cannot afford the quality of life they deserve in this country.

Mr. Gerard Brady

I would agree with all of that. With regard to the top five issues we see around people's decisions whether to live here or not, tax might be one of them but quality of life and housing are by far the number one issue. It is not just the cost of housing but availability of housing and finding appropriate housing. That is the number one issue by a mile for our membership.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I was listening in on a good bit of the meeting earlier I probably should have asked about some of the things I wanted to raise in the very first time slot. There is a huge range of different recommendations in the report. What would the witnesses identify as particular priorities for themselves? For example, chapter 12 refers to child benefit universality and means testing, as well as pensioners paying PRSI. Do the witnesses have a view on those areas? There was some discussion earlier of tax breaks. They often come in for criticism for groups that are not accessing them. There are recommendations for opportunities around angel funding. What kind of improvements would the witnesses like to see in those tax breaks that would make them more practical or useful to them?

Mr. Gerard Brady

If I had to call out one, particularly around chapter 9 which is focused on enterprise, I would highlight recommendation 9.2 on the use of feedback statements and roadmaps for SMEs. That is a really welcome recommendation from our perspective in that corporate and large taxpayers have roadmaps produced by the Department of Finance that tell them what legislation is going to change over the course of three years and what the environment is going to look like. They plan towards that and those things are followed through but for SMEs there is no equivalent. SMEs are kind of going from Finance Bill to Finance Bill to see what they might get. Often schemes are introduced on budget day and when we see the Finance Bill the scheme does not work for whatever reason. We need better use of that kind of long-term roadmap or strawman approach to produce a kind of tax scheme before the Finance Bill so people can feed back into it. We need to let SMEs do that.

Doing that very effectively on corporate tax would be a very positive one.

I refer to equity investment and angel investors. The employment investment incentive, EII, scheme is hugely important for equity investment, for a number of reasons. The first one is that we have a pretty small pool in the country for equity investment relative to other countries. That scheme does a huge amount to bring in more and allow investment in companies throughout their life, or at least in their first seven to eight years. There are two things that could improve that. The first would be a recommendation from the commission to allow angel investors and investors from outside to use the scheme and invest in EII companies. It would expand the base of equity and expand the amount that was available for investment at a time when, because of rising interest rates, we are seeing a shortage of capital for companies, particularly SMEs.

On allowing losses, many people have pulled back a bit from investing in SMEs because they are afraid of losing money and obviously in challenging environments that happens. If losses were allowed to be written off through the scheme against capital gains tax, CGT, it would help immensely in terms of the risk appetite for people investing through the scheme.

Mr. Ian Talbot

From Chambers Ireland's perspective, they are all very valid points. One that comes up regularly in our network that could be very easily is the trans-Border relief that is causing some grief in Border areas. Regarding the angel investor, something that has been on my mind for a long time is the ability to claim relief for dividend payments on capital, in the same way one can claim tax relief on interest payments. However, we have to bear in mind that some of these reliefs, if they are only at 12.5% or potentially 15% in the future, are not a huge benefit, and certainly not by comparison with the 50% rate when I was youngster in the workforce. The most important thing we are trying to do with this roadmap is to lay out a strategy for where we are going to bring our tax structures in the future.

Deputy Moynihan may have heard us talk earlier about how we tax polluting activities, usage and so on. It would be great to have a roadmap so that we could bring people gradually along to understanding what sort of a tax structure we need to go along with the national development plan, NDP, Project Ireland 2040, our commitments on climate change for 2030 to 2050 and all those sort of things. We need a structure in place where people can be brought on gradually. We tried to do this with the carbon tax. We said here is where we need to get to and we are going to get to it over a certain number of budgets. That will be a bit wobbly in certain budgets between now and then but the principle is right. We are saying where we need to get to, that we are going to get to it in easy stages and that we are going to keep driving towards that. The most important thing is that we put that plan in place and start the process of moving towards it.

I will go in a slightly different direction and thank the witnesses for the responses. One of the issues I hear time and again from different employers is about the difficulties they have in finding skilled people to do a job. They are searching high up and low down. It could be any range of skills. Earlier today I had the opportunity to talk to a guy who is looking for a mechanic, somebody to repair trucks. He had an apprentice who went to Australia. He is looking high up and low down. I know a number of other manufacturing and healthcare businesses in my area have been looking to the Philippines for people with particular skills. Do the witnesses have any recommendations on how things could be improved in that area?

Mr. Shane Conneely

We have been calling for a simplification of the visa and permit system. The restrictions were loosened to an extent but the process by which the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment broadens the pool of people who can come here is by creating new permits for new things. That complicates the process. It is very challenging for businesses, particularly on their first route into bringing people here from abroad

Is bringing people in from abroad the preferred option? Is there a way of doing something internally?

Mr. Shane Conneely

It is not a preferred option. It is a necessary option. There has been huge growth in our labour force. People are very active in our labour force. More people are working now than ever before in Ireland. It is not as if there is a huge pool of untapped talent out there, with the exception of certain limited areas. The reason our hospitals are recruiting people from south east Asia is that the talent is not available here. Very often we have to consider what the workforce conditions are like in certain sectors. There is a large role for the State to play in areas like healthcare, etc., where there are huge constrictions on staffing.

Mr. Ian Talbot

If we look at the particular sector the Deputy specified, we are victims of our own success, in many ways. Look at the problems with the NCT, which are being dealt with in a separate committee. It is desperate for mechanics. The NCT company, Applus+, is probably sucking up any available skills in that area. As it is so far behind, it is probably over-recruiting at the moment to clear the backlog. In the late 1980s, we had about 750,000 cars on the road and now we have 2.5 million cars on the road. They all need to be serviced and so on. There has been huge growth. Now we have hit the point where the combination of the new regulation, not that the NCT is new, increased the number of skilled mechanics needed to do the test. A big number of cars and a backlog from Covid has resulted in a huge issue in that particular sector. There simply are not enough people in Ireland interested enough and skilled enough in that role to meet all those opportunities in the sector at the moment. It is a real challenge.

It is clear from the report that the commission does not support the introduction of a universal basic income, UBI. Before Christmas we saw the reporting on the UBI was very much focused on the headline cost of €50 billion. Will the witnesses give me their opinion on a UBI and details on costs? When we take into account the savings that could be made in administrative aspects of the social welfare system, are there any other savings that can be quantified or are there others that cannot be but should be considered?

Mr. Shane Conneely

Our position on it would be that the jury is out on UBI. It is potentially very expensive but it could potentially work. There are a number of experiments that are ongoing internationally in this area, so we would hold our fire. I am not sure we would be the best country to jump forward and lead on this one. There are potential benefits. The thing to bear in mind is that about 10% of the budget of the Department of Social Protection goes to administrative costs. It is a couple of billion euro a year but it not an enormous saving at a State level in terms of how much we could gain back from that. It would also have to be accompanied with some serious changes to our income tax code. Pretty much all income that was not UBI-derived would probably have to be taxed, if it was to be credible. One of the great benefits that could arise from something like that would be greater flexibility within the workforce. It is not so much that there will be lower costs for giving people grants, etc. It is that people who may only be able to work four or five hours a week would be able to work for those four or five hours. That is what could be done. However, we have enough other problems to solve. The Finns might come back with some good answers for us.

What are the witness's views on an alternative policy proposal to UBI?

For example, they have an income guarantee in England. How would that work here? What are Mr. Conneely's thoughts on that?

Mr. Shane Conneely

There are different attitudes to this internationally. One view on UBI is that other benefits could be removed and replaced with a single payment. That is probably not great for people with increased needs. For example, if one is caring for someone with a disability, there will be higher household costs. Giving them the same benefits as somebody who is young, free and single leads to an equity argument that is incomplete. One of the issues in Britain at the moment is that their pathway to simplification was often the removal of other supports. What they have ended up with is something, which is very harsh for people who are not typical workers.

I know it is getting late in the evening, so I will finish with this point. Recommendation 9.11 states that the special assignee relief programme, SARP, should be subject to further restrictions, and its continuation subject to regular review as part of the tax expenditure review process. What are the witnesses' views on how SARP should be changed, or should it be removed altogether?

Mr. Gerard Brady

We see similar schemes to SARP across about 25 EU countries, which are competitive for highly mobile workers. From our point of view, so long as other countries have similar schemes in place, most of which are probably more generous than SARP, then Ireland needs to compete with those schemes. If one were to see a change in SARP or similar schemes one would prefer to see it done at an OECD level through some kind of agreement on the use of those schemes, so that every country is moving together. The danger from an Irish perspective is that SARP works very well at attracting people into the country, but it is a competitive process with other countries. Were one country to drop its SARP or equivalent it will obviously lose people to other countries offering better inducements. Our view is that one cannot move unilaterally to change or remove SARP. However, I do not think anyone would oppose a multilateral agreement across all countries using similar schemes.

Does Mr. Brady believe there are other incentives which are more appropriate and efficient in promoting research and development?

Mr. Gerard Brady

SARP is aimed at mobile workers and is an important scheme given the global context of competition with other countries. In terms of the largest challenge, housing is the number one issue for 70% of our members. A survey we did before Christmas identified it as a major challenge for 30% of them. It was one of the top three external challenges their businesses faced for the new year. When we talk to companies, not just in Dublin but across the country, the challenge they face is not just getting people to come here and the attractiveness of Ireland in terms of the tax system, pay or anything else but that when they come here and sign contracts, they cannot find a place to live. I know multiple businesses that have ceased bidding for projects to expand within their group because they do not think they can house the staff if they get them. Housing is the major focus when it comes to those mobile workers.

I thank the witnesses.

I have some questions. I want to focus a little on working age payments, and what the report has to say on that. We have spoken in previous sessions about whether we are getting it right, or if there is sufficient communication between Departments around how they work together, and what it looks like on the ground for particular families. Would the witnesses like to make some overall comments on it?

Mr. Gerard Brady

It is not something that comes up a huge amount for us. The major issues that come up for us with our members on the social welfare side are welfare traps. PRSI and the step in effect in PRSI in particular. The income thresholds in the HAP scheme are another one. The same applies to things like third level grants where families face big losses in income if they take on extra work or extra overtime. That is where we see the real challenges in the system. More broadly, it goes back to earlier questions about what we learned from the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, and other schemes through Covid. How do we take that forward as a scheme that keeps people close to the labour market during times of systemic cyclical crises, to which the Irish economy and the global economy are prone? Those are the types of questions we focused on in our submission to the commission.

Mr. Shane Conneely

We would have taken a similar position, that the cliff edges those families encounter are the principal issue. They have a second order effect as well because once those benefits have been claimed one becomes severely risk averse. Very often many challenges have been overcome to find a home and to find somebody who will accept the HAP payment. They do not want to put themselves at risk. We are seeing it again with the current refugee crisis. There are significant numbers of highly skilled people across the country who are vulnerable and who have come from a war zone. They want to participate but they cannot risk suddenly being without any other support at all. We would like to see that smoothed out.

Particularly from a gender perspective, that definitely affects women. They are risk averse when it comes to messing with benefits. You have spoken a little about the annual merry-go-round of the budget and supports for businesses that maybe do not work by the time the finance Bill comes along. Sometimes that also seems to happen for some social protection schemes. They have an unintended consequence for a certain cohort if they are receiving something in a particular area. We have talked a little about the phasing in of changes. Can we do a deep dive into what that would look like in real time? Who would be in that room? When would it happen? How far out from budget day would it be? Can we look at that in real detail? Let us say there was a SME project that we wanted to take on and that there was a new scheme. Let us say it is February. Can we think about what that would look like in real time for the business community? How early would it need to know? How would we roadmap that or test that with businesses? Obviously if it is a proposal, we would not actually be doing it yet. There would be no money there yet. What would that look like if, for example, we were to bring a proposal to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform?

Mr. Gerard Brady

We already have a good model of it for corporate tax. We see a roadmap produced every three years, where the Department tells us in detail what it intends to do. That is much like the commission's bullet-pointed actions, the Action Plan for Jobs or the multiple plans the Government has where it sets out a timeframe in which it expects to do something and who is responsible for it. It produces that. Then we have kind of a process where probably around February or March every year we see public consultations come out from the Department of Finance with a question on a scheme like the research and development tax credit, the employment investment incentive, EII, scheme for equity or some other scheme, asking how it can improve the scheme and asking other questions it wants answered. That leads back into the finance Bill. We have also seen the Department have town hall-type meetings with businesses. We had one in Trinity College. It might have been in 2018 or 2019. I cannot remember because of Covid.

Time is an accordion for Covid.

Mr. Gerard Brady

We had a town hall meeting. Both representative groups and individual businesses fed back to the Department staff. That time it was on SME tax.

Does Mr. Brady think it is realistic to have a three-year roadmap for SME tax policy? The reason I ask is that our corporation tax policy is pretty static insofar as everybody knows where everybody sits on this. Even if it does go to 15%, everybody accepts that we will be dragged kicking and screaming. The 12.5% is there. The centre of the debate is fixed, but not so much with SME tax policy.

Is it for three years or 18 months? We have just seen the Government say it would have this 5% spending rule and then throw it out within a year.

Mr. Shane Conneely

There is a conflict between what would work and what will be politically possible. This is a considerable tension. We see it with some policies where they might go on the backburner for several years and then, all of a sudden, they are reintroduced into the conversation. It turns out the plan is to deliver them within 12 months. We would have to talk to our members and flag to them and warn them that X is due to arrive in January of whenever. Then it does not, and that is because other hindrances are involved and the Ministers in question are not in a position to say that it is going to take two or three years because that would delay the process even further. A great deal of work probably needs to be done at a political level to be able to construct a process which can deliver policies within the timeframe it has been said they can be delivered. We would love if this were to happen. I think the three-year window is a reasonable one. When businesses are looking at making investments, they look at windows of three to five years.

Would there be a need-----

Mr. Ian Talbot

I am sorry to cut across.

Go ahead.

Mr. Ian Talbot

I was the one who probably mentioned that point and I mentioned the carbon tax as an example of an initiative where people knew what change was coming. What I had in mind were the big changes that lie ahead for the economy. Let us take electric vehicles as an example. How do we in this case deal with the issue of road tax and make up for the loss of revenue from diesel and other fuel taxes and excise duties that we charge now, if we are all driving electric cars? I know we are some way from that reality, but we must start bringing people towards that transition. People are very opposed to a perceived new tax now. I know it can be difficult politically but we are ducking some of these decisions or roadmaps regarding changes we know are coming.

We have, for example, our targets for the numbers of electric vehicles to have on the roads. This means that someone, I hope, somewhere in the Department of Finance has a spreadsheet detailing what this transformation is going to mean for the reduction in excise duties and where the money for this is going to come from. It must come from somewhere and people need to know where that is going to be. This is more of an example of what I had in mind and the need to start thinking long term. A period of three years is interesting. Outside, we were talking about benefit-in-kind and company cars. This measure was laid out three years ago and everybody understood it, but when it came to January and people got their payslips-----

They were not happy.

Mr. Ian Talbot

-----they were asking where that came from. There is a danger in the long term. The best thing we can do is to make an incremental change annually so people are expecting it. If something is announced and people are given three years before it is introduced, human nature is to forget about it. I was thinking about the fundamental changes coming in our economy, such as the advent of electric vehicles because we are so dependent on excise duties, vehicle registration tax, VRT, and all these sorts of things. As we increasingly move towards using public transport, what will this mean for VRT? It is these sorts of changes that I am referring to. We need to bring the population along with us as well. We had the debacle with water charges, for example. The question here is how we get people on board and get them to realise that they will be paying less tax for their fuel because we will have energy from loads of wind farms. This energy will be really cheap for people's cars, but we will still have to pay for the roads we drive on.

I like to think the carbon tax roadmap is there to inform the public, but in fact it is mostly to inform other politicians that this is happening, that they cannot argue with it and that we have locked it in at the start. If this is to work, is it envisaged that a more robust forum would be needed for the business community to support it? Notwithstanding the importance of public consultation, as I understand it, these kinds of roadmaps and feedback statements require something a little bit more formal than what we do for a new road. If we were to phase in measures with roadmaps etc., would we need to have an annual economic forum that is slightly more robust than what we have now?

Mr. Gerard Brady

I am almost afraid to suggest another economic forum because we have many of them. There are bodies in place. Taking labour market changes as an example, where we have many coming through now, the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, is the obvious place for those. As regards environmental changes, we have the Climate Change Advisory Council. It does not necessarily deal with the tax side of things. There could be a similar body to try to map out some of these key areas regarding tax over a longer period and generate the kind of public buy-in that Mr. Talbot is talking about. The challenge here is that if we jump people at the time of the Finance Bill, they will react to it. We have a tendency then to back down and the changes never come back again and the proposal gets dropped. If information is leaked out slowly, on the other hand, over a number of years and people get used to the idea that a change is coming, that may be a better approach.

It does not always work and it certainly did not for benefit-in-kind, but it has worked in other areas. The example of the carbon tax is probably a good one in the business community. I would have guessed ten to 15 years ago that there would have been considerable opposition in the business community to a carbon tax. As we build a consensus on the need for change and build on people's attitudes by bringing them into the process rather than leaving them to be surprised on budget day, it helps to build consensus. This is particularly the case when it comes to the skills and labour market changes we are seeing. This is an area where greater consensus needs to built, certainly when it comes to-----

Will Mr. Brady expand on that point?

Mr. Gerard Brady

Yes. We have a number of changes coming down the line, including auto-enrolment pensions. Statutory sick pay has been brought in and consultation is under way on linking social welfare payments to pay. We are moving forward in many different areas, including changes in the pension age. Our view is that this change would be better done within one coherent plan rather than doing lots of different things at different times, sometimes without talking to each other across Departments and groups. If there was a coherence to that, we might be able to bring people along and, crucially, help people to plan for bringing these changes in. What we are doing now is jumping a lot of things on people and giving them less than 12 months to get ready. When that is done, particularly from a business perspective but also at household level, if people do not have time to plan, then either no planning is done and we end up with an adverse reaction when these changes come into place or we have such a short time to plan that we end up with unintended consequences in terms of the legislation not working the first time we do something. We then have to go back again and again. We have seen this happen particularly on the SME tax side. A change is made or announced in the budget, put out in the Finance Bill and then there is uproar when it is finally introduced because it does not work. If instead we had earlier engagement and we brought people into the process earlier, we would have ended up with a better outcome.

Mr. Ian Talbot

The increase in PRSI a few years back, the 0.3% extra to go into the National Training Fund, was an example of an initiative that worked reasonably well. It was announced that the change was to be made and the levy would rise by 0.3% by adding 0.1% annually for three years. The budget came and went and the measure went through. If people were sitting down and doing their budgets in November for 2024, their payroll person would be saying not to forget the extra 0.1% on the rate of PRSI. The change, therefore, is in the system and everybody can work around it. Prices and strategy can be set, etc., knowing it is there. This does bring up the question of what was done with the money when it went into the National Training Fund but that is a different argument. That is an example of how things do not have to be difficult.

People must be given some notice and not have big changes sprung on them. This brings me back to what I said earlier about some big things coming. It would be better if we phased them in by levying one third of the total cost over three years or one fifth over five years or whatever, rather than springing them on people all at once. Looking back to the debate on the water charges, I remember looking at the grid that was published in The Irish Times and the Irish Independent one day, looking across at one house with four adults in it and saying "Oh my God" when I saw the price there. This was an example of where people suddenly went from paying nothing to paying €1,000 in water charges out of nowhere, and the bill was coming in the following week. This sort of approach goes down badly across the board. From the perspective of companies, we can plan and budget if we have certainty about where things are moving.

I might just finish off by asking the witnesses if they would like to comment on any of the recommendations on PRSI in the document.

I am particularly thinking of the one in Chapter 9 around, "... employer Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) on share-based remuneration should be limited through the introduction of an appropriate annual cap or, alternatively, by restricting the exemption to micro, small and medium-sized enterprises". Is there any comment on that?

Mr. Gerard Brady

Our view has always been supportive of share options generally, not just for SMEs but across the board. We see a trend towards it across almost all companies for greater employ buy-in to the company. There are productivity benefits to share options because people are bought in to the performance of the company. We have always been supportive of it, so we have an issue with that specific recommendation.

Do the witnesses have any views - I have spoken to the Minister about this before - on the supports Government provides, not so much financial but a supporting framework to businesses that choose to move to a more co-operative model? There has been interesting work in the UK around businesses that choose to move to that place, rather than wind down, for example.

Mr. Gerard Brady

Many of our members are co-operatives or have been in the past. Legislation is going through the House at the moment on co-operatives. We do not have specific issues with that legislation but it is something we can come back to with our members in that space.

Mr. Ian Talbot

We have no differing views on that either.

The witnesses do not wish to make a comment about PRSI.

Mr. Ian Talbot

We talked about it before we came in, if we were asked. We have no particular comment about it. The most important thing for businesses is certainty, to be able to plan ahead, set budgets, targets, pricings and strategies and to understand where they need raw materials to be bought in, services or training and that they can plan for it. That is the most important thing. Businesses need to plan over more than the budget horizon. We argue about it in the newspapers in September, we announce it in October, the finance Bill is in November and you have your payroll in January.

It does not concern so much members of the witnesses' organisations or the people they represent, but we always wonder if there are sufficient data and public information in the public sphere around what is happening the business community. We could put this question to other sectors as well. Do the witnesses believe that not just the Department of Finance but also the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or other Departments make enough information and disaggregated data freely available to groups like the witnesses' ones to be able to do the work they do?

Mr. Gerard Brady

I can take that without getting into trouble with any of the Departments.

Try not to get into too much trouble.

Mr. Gerard Brady

There has been a lot of progress in recent years. Bodies, such as the CSO, in particular, are brilliant in the information they provide. If you look at the Departments, there are limits to how much can be provided; some things are not public for a reason. They have made improvements, particularly in the last five or six years. More can always be done on open data, particularly when we look at the budget or tax. One of the best examples is Revenue and the ready reckoner it produces before the budget each year. It is helpful for bodies like us in trying to cost budget submissions so we do not just come with a list; it actually helps from that perspective. The more of that can be done, the better.

Mr. Shane Conneely

We would have to agree. A lot of progress has been made. Things are getting better. The issue is probably not about unhelpfulness within Departments. Very often, data are not collected in a way that makes it useful for further analysis. We routinely find that great projects have been done and reports published but websites are not updated and everything gets old and vanishes into the mists of time. That is a bigger issue than Departments withholding information.

We hear that exact thing in the health sphere all the time. It is not that they are not making the data available, but the data have not been collected or collated.

I thank the witnesses for their responses which were very interesting. I thank them for coming before the committee. It was an evening session, so I appreciate their time.

The select committee adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 15 February 2023.
Top
Share