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Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 2023

Report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome from the Nevin Economic Research Institute, Dr. Tom McDonnell, Mr. Ciarán Nugent and Mr. Chris Smart; and from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Dr. Laura Bambrick and Mr. Ger Gibbons. I thank them for coming back. I apologise for what happened with the session some weeks ago. We had a number of clashes, some of which have repeated today but thankfully some have not. We very much appreciate that they have come back and we are looking forward to hearing their opening statements.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they do not adhere to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any Member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I invite Dr. Tom McDonnell to give his opening statement.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

On behalf of the Nevin Economic Research Institute, NERI, I thank the select committee for the opportunity to discuss these chapters of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report. I am joined today by my NERI colleagues Ciarán Nugent and Chris Smart.

The report has rightly taken a high-level systems approach. It makes clear that Ireland’s fiscal position will deteriorate meaningfully over the next two decades and that the overall revenue yield will need to increase materially over the medium term to address the growing fiscal gap.

How well is our system of income supports and subsidised public services performing in its core job of protecting households from income inadequacy? The enforced deprivation rate is a useful proxy for income inadequacy and a measure of a society's failure or otherwise to adequately protect households. The proportion of people living in enforced deprivation increased from 13.8% in 2021 to 17.7% in 2022. Children have a one in five probability of deprivation, whereas it is closer to one in eight for retired people. Certain cohorts are particularly vulnerable. Persons living in one-adult households with children under 18 have almost a 44% probability of deprivation; persons unable to work due to a disability also have a 44% probability of deprivation; and renters have a 36% probability. The NERI anticipates that the surge in inflation in 2022 and 2023 and the decision not to index welfare rates in the budget will increase deprivation rates in 2023.

The report’s key recommendations on adequacy argue for regular evidence-based benchmarking exercises and multi-annual targets for working age payments; reform of working-age payments to ensure an integrated and co-ordinated system based on adequacy; and a new enhanced working-age payment and a second level of child income support, both of which should be tapered by income. The NERI welcomes each of these recommendations.

The new lower nominal rate of employee PRSI is likely to be one the most controversial recommendations. It is important that marginal effective tax rates remain low for low-wage households. In addition, there is a clear concern this recommendation will disproportionately impact low-income households. It should therefore only be implemented alongside the key adequacy recommendations already described.

The report recommends that all cliff edges in the tax and welfare system should be removed. Cliff edges create labour market distortions and can lead to perverse incentives for employees and employers. The recommendation is effectively saying that cash payments or access to other benefits should not be lost due to some arbitrary threshold such as employment status or the number of days worked. Instead, only income should determine whether someone qualifies. Step effects and discontinuities should also be avoided.

On horizontal equity, the NERI welcomes the key recommendation that PRSI on self-employment should be aligned over time with the employer’s rate of Class A.

This aligns with the report's core theme of horizontal equity and it aligns with the need to remove labour market distortions whereby similar activities are treated in different ways. Distinctions between legal forms should be eliminated for tax purposes.

The NERI supports the recommendation that the Government would undertake a regular benchmarking exercise in respect of all working-age income supports, including supports for the unemployed, people experiencing disabilities, and people parenting alone. Benchmarking would be a welcome reform as it would finally lead to income supports having some transparent basis in evidence. The Pensions Commission made a similarly welcome recommendation about the basic pension. A benchmarking process would need to consider a range of questions, only a few of which I will touch on. First, should there be a once-off process with benchmarks set for each of the different income supports or is an ongoing benchmarking commission necessary? The view of the NERI is that there should be a permanent advisory benchmarking commission that would adjust benchmarks over time based on emerging evidence and practical experience.

Second, what we should benchmark payments against? There are a number of plausible benchmarks. These include median wage, median income, price inflation, or potentially a derived indicator linked to an individual or household’s minimum essential standard of living, MESL. A composite benchmark based on a dashboard of indicators could also be considered. Benchmarking solely to price is unsuitable as income supports would fall increasingly behind average wages over time. As such, living standards for those dependent on working-age or old-age supports would increasingly fall behind the rest of society. Benchmarking to the median wage has a number of advantages. In particular, it ensures rates are set cognisant of potential employment impacts. The main argument for using a MESL metric as a benchmark is straightforward. It is the cost of living rather than wages that determines an adequate income and therefore the logic goes that only the cost of living is an appropriate benchmark for adequacy.

The NERI welcomes the recommendation of a new and tapered working-age assistance payment available to all households, including those without children. Moving to a system of working-age payments based on household income rather than employment status or any other arbitrary threshold, such as days worked, would help minimise employment disincentives. The tapered structure is crucial as it ensures marginal effective tax rates remain low. The recommendation that child benefit remains untaxed is welcome and is consistent with the findings of previous bodies set up to examine the issue. In addition, the current high rates of child poverty and associated long-term consequences indicate that Ireland’s current model of child income support is failing. We therefore strongly agree with the recommendation of an additional tier of income tapered child income support.

On pay-related benefits, the view of the NERI is that the case for income-related social insurance is actually stronger than that outlined in the report. Income-related social insurance provides a form of temporary security that enables better job matching. This reduces overqualification and ensures better utilisation of human capital. Reduced risk aversion also makes people more likely to start a new business or otherwise engage in entrepreneurial activity. Income-related social insurance also dampens the amplitude of recessions via consumption smoothing. Pay-related unemployment benefits help preserve aggregate demand and therefore protect other people’s jobs during a downturn.

We also note that Ireland is out of line with western European norms when it comes to aggregate tax, social contributions and benefits. Ireland raised just 37.4% of GNI* in Government revenue in 2019 compared with 40.1% of GDP for the EU. The explanation for the difference is that Irish employer social contributions are very low at 4.4% of GNI* compared with 8.2% of GDP in the EU.

I will also touch briefly on chapter 9 of the report which deals with enterprise. While the NERI supports many of the stated aims of chapter 9, there are also many aspects which we find problematic. The other 17 chapters make consistent acknowledgement of the need to minimise tax expenditures and differential tax treatment. This is intellectually consistent with the report's stated principles of efficiency and horizontal equity. The disadvantages of tax expenditures, namely, that they are non-transparent, related to uncertain cost, regressive, economically distortive in nature, and characterised by deadweight, are all set out repeatedly in the report, which concludes that they should only be used in very exceptional circumstances. In our view, this approach is correct. However, this approach is sidelined somewhat in chapter 9. Instead, there is a series of recommendations which implicitly or explicitly support a range of very generous tax expenditures, low tax rates for enterprises, high-earning individuals or both. While in some limited and special cases these types of reliefs may individually have an economic justification, collectively they somewhat undermine the approach taken in the rest of the report. I will give one example. The special assignee relief programme, SARP, makes a mockery of any notion of vertical equity. Such measures make it much more difficult to advocate for necessary tax reform in other areas. Let us recall the report's main recommendation that tax revenues will need to be meaningfully increased. However, why should people accept the need for their taxes to increase when they can see that the very rich are treated much more generously? The political economy of raising taxes over the next decade will be extremely challenging and the content of this chapter risks undermining much of the excellent work in the rest of the report. In our view, the overall balance between fairness and potential efficiency gains is not achieved in this chapter. The NERI therefore does not support this chapter while it broadly welcomes the rest of the report.

I invite Mr. Ger Gibbons to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

On behalf of the Irish of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, I thank the Select Committee on Budgetary Oversight for the invitation to discuss the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, chapters 9 to 12. This follows on from the submission on these chapters which we made to the committee in December 2022. I am joined by my colleague Dr. Laura Bambrick.

In these opening remarks, I am not going to go through the full opening statement which we sent to the committee some weeks back. I would like to touch on a number of points at this stage. I echo what Dr. McDonnell has said, that the commission's report correctly recognises that Government revenue as a share of national income must be increased to provide the resources necessary to meet the many challenges to fiscal sustainability arising over the medium and long term; mainly due to our growing and ageing population as well as the green transition. We think this is perhaps the most important contribution the report has made and one that must guide policymaking in the years ahead. We accordingly welcome the recommendations to broaden the tax base and to minimise tax expenditures and differential tax treatments. This approach is entirely justified on the grounds of horizontal and vertical equity, economic efficiency and transparency.

However, to echo the points that Dr. McDonnell has just made, this approach is not carried over into chapter 9 on promoting enterprise. Instead, this chapter makes a series of recommendations that not only endorse, but in some cases actually seek to extend, a raft of very generous and costly tax expenditures and low rates for enterprises and high-earning individuals. We refer at this particular stage to the recommendations concerning entrepreneur relief, the special assignee relief programme, and the limited nature of the recommendations concerning the research and development tax credit. Some of these recommendations in chapter 9 run counter to the approach taken elsewhere in the report and only serve to undermine its overall coherence.

With regard to chapters 10 to 12, inclusive, we very much support the principle of broadening the PRSI base to safeguard the future sustainability of the Social Insurance Fund and to improve the adequacy of income supports, and we broadly agree with the range of recommendations put forward to achieve this. We welcome the key recommendation on benchmarking and indexation of working-age payments set out in chapter 12. As our pre-budget recommendations for budget 2023 stated, to ensure income adequacy, social protection rates should be benchmarked against median earnings. We argue this should be done against the median earnings of full-time workers as now envisaged by the directive on minimum wage which must be transposed by November of next year. We are disappointed the commission did not recommend increasing the employer PRSI contribution rate and, as outlined in our statement, we have concerns about recommendation to make low-wage workers and people over 65 liable for PRSI and the recommendation concerning inward support, that this should not, in effect, result in wage subsidies for low-paid and precarious jobs.

We are happy to develop and set out our views further on these points and to answer any questions on these matters. We look forward to the exchange with members.

I thank our guests. My question is for Mr. Gibbons and his colleagues of the ICTU. I note from his opening statement that he believes several of the proposals in chapter 9 are at odds with the general thrust of the commission's work. Given the tax expenditures he referenced, such as the entrepreneur relief, SARP etc., are of significant annual cost to the taxpayer, will he expand on why he thinks they are at odds with the commission's task of finding ways to broaden the tax base?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

I am happy to respond to that. Regarding the entrepreneur relief, when this scheme or tax break was introduced, it was estimated it would cost approximately €27 million per year. The cost for the latest year for which data are available is approximately €93 million, or more than three times as much as the estimated cost. That was claimed by just over 900 taxpayers, so the average is roughly €100,000 per year.

The total cost in the four years to 2020 was approximately €360 million, so it is an expensive tax break.

Our criticism of this relief is that the recommendations relating to it do not seem to take into account the substantial critique of this break that was included in a 2021 ESRI report on options for raising revenue in Ireland. The ESRI's essential conclusion was that this tax break was more likely to promote efforts to avoid tax on retirement than to encourage genuine investment. The recommendation in chapter 9 also refers to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment's Report of the SME Taskforce: National SME and Entrepreneurship Growth Plan, which was published in 2021. In its report, the commission recommended that entrepreneurs relief be extended to third-party investors. However, that growth plan recommended a reduced rate of 20%, not the 10% that is currently available to investors in non-property SMEs. If we look again at the figures for the breakdown of how this tax break is allocated, we can see that 24% of the cost in 2020, or €22 million, went to real estate activities, and approximately €80 million went to those activities in recent years. The main point is that one of the principle justifications for this relief is that other tax reliefs that are discussed in this chapter and are not effective. For example I think it makes reference to the investment incentive scheme. It does not seem to be a good justification for expanding this relief that others do not work. That is our principle concern about that relief.

I thank Mr. Gibbons and the other witnesses for their time.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na finnéithe chomh maith. I thank the witnesses for attending and for their statements. I will keep my contribution short and tight. I will ask for the witnesses' views on two issues. I would be interested to hear their views on the recommendation that pensioners should continue to pay PRSI. Second, how do the witnesses feel the recommendation for the additional payment for child benefit, which is the means-tested portion, compares with the existing one? Should it be a top-up of the existing child benefit or should it be more substantial, that is, equal to or larger than the existing child benefit for people on lower pay? I would like to get a handle on what kind of payment the witnesses are recommending.

Dr. Laura Bambrick

I will start with the recommendation to make over-65s liable for PRSI. The ICTU believes in intergenerational equity and solidarity to help with sustainability of the social insurance fund. The State pension is the biggest part of spending from the social insurance fund, but we have some concerns about a blanket recommendation to make all income for a person over-65s liable for PRSI. People aged over 65 who worked for some or all of their careers as civil or public servants and who were recruited before 1995 paid a special reduced form of social insurance which means they are not entitled to the State pension. This means that many of them are in receipt of a modest pension that is less than the State pension, and they are also not entitled to the household benefit package. There has been some movement since January on public sector pensioners aged over 70 being able to get the fuel allowance, and that is welcome. However, our point is that there is a group of pensioners who are not eligible for the State pension, could be on a modest or smaller pension than the State pension and they will be liable for PRSI at 4% while their next-door neighbours could be on the State pension and their higher or equal income will not be liable.

There are horizontal equity problems. It is State and ICTU policy to support people who want a longer working life, to work after the age of 65 if they are fit, able and willing to do so. At the moment, people over 65 do not have to pay PRSI but, more importantly, their employers do not have to pay employer PRSI. They pay 0.5%. That is just to cover worker's occupational illness benefit. Making people who work after the age of 65 and their employers liable to pay PRSI would create employment disincentives for both sides. Since 2014 or 2012 - I am not sure which - when workers make contributions to their pension pots, they pay social insurance. To then say they must pay PRSI when they draw down their pensions means that they will be taxed twice. It would be the same tax on the same income. Those are three areas of concern. We absolutely believe that people over 65 should be contributing. We also believe that unearned income should be treated equally, but unless suitable income disregards are included in the design, there will be poverty and employment disincentives. A blanket charge that makes over-65s liable for PRSI will cause problems.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I will start on child benefit, although the two issues are linked. It is a broader point that the goal of the report was to design a system that would, in theory at least, eliminate deprivation. The focus of the report was adequacy. With respect to child benefit, we came to the view that child poverty was far beyond an acceptable level - it affects close to one in five children - and we felt one of the areas in which significant reform was needed was the redesign of the tax and welfare system to attempt to eliminate deprivation rates for children. The first decision was that child benefit should not be taxed, nor should it be reduced from its current level. It falls into the category of the type of payment for people of working age, children and pensioners that should be benchmarked and ultimately indexed. On top of that there should be an income-related, tapered, additional support. That additional support should be paid for every child in a household and alongside that there would be a tapered working-age support, which would be an amalgamation of the working family payment and jobseekers allowance, which, again, would be benchmarked and indexed and would taper down as a recipient's income increases. This would be an enhanced benefit. One of the criticisms of the commission was that it only focused on increasing taxes and so forth. Root-and-branch reform of the welfare system did not get as much attention.

Before Dr. McDonnell moves on from child benefit and the size of it, I have another question. The universal payment is made in respect of every child.

The aim is to try to tackle child poverty with the means-tested portion, the top-up or whatever we want to call it. Is that extra payment at the lower end somewhere on the same scale as the flat rate, or would the maximum be some proportion, perhaps 20%, 50% or 80%, of the current child benefit payment? I am just trying to get an idea of whether this means-tested item would make up the bulk of the child benefit payment or whether it would be a kind of add-on.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

That is a very important question. From the commission's perspective, a figure was not identified. The reason for that was the recommendation was that there needed to be a benchmarking process. It was felt that out of the benchmarking process would come percentages or figures that would be appropriate to reflect the cost of children, the cost of disability, the cost of renting and the cost of old age, whatever it might be. Therefore, that process, which probably should involve an ongoing commission to advise - not tell - the Government on matters, would probably provide a range of rather than specific numbers. I cannot give the Deputy a specific figure on that but I would anticipate that it would be quite significant, and, obviously, on top of the existing child benefit, which would be benchmarked.

That would be on top of the child payment alone. I imagine that those on other payments, such as jobseekers allowance, would get the child allowance as well.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Potentially. The idea would be to try and roll as many benefits as possible into a smaller selection of adequate payments, which would all be benchmarked, to simplify the system and ultimately-----

Would that mean that it would still be available for people who are in employment, because the child allowance is only available to people who are on the social welfare payment?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

It would be available to everyone. It would not depend on employment; it would depend on income. In fact, one of the other recommendations is that all of the welfare payments would ultimately be tied to income, and that they would taper down very gently with income to make sure that there would be no employment disincentives and also to ensure that they would be adequate up through the system. Of course, they would be greatly enhanced as well.

In terms of the working age payment, as the Deputy is aware, currently, the working family payment does not apply to people who do not have children. In this case, the idea is that the enhanced working age payment would be tapered with income and would not look at whether there are children in a household. The enhanced child benefit payment would deal with the additional cost of having children in the household. Certainly, the NERI would support those recommendations. Perhaps Mr. Nugent or Mr. Smart would like to add to that.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

In terms of adequacy, my only comment is about how we measure it and the importance of the cost of living. We are in a highly inflationary environment at the moment. If we are measuring adequacy and the real median wage is falling, then from one year to the next a person's living standards might actually fall. At the same time, we are still saying that they are not in poverty and they have an adequate wage. It is a technical issue. With the references to the term "adequacy" and 60% of the median wage, the language in the report is kind of mix and match. They are actually two different things, if we are talking about a minimum essential standard of living. It is a technical point about how we look at that going forward. Benchmarking it to a median income when median incomes are falling is not going to do anything in the context of poverty. The State is going to have to step in afterwards in any event if that is the approach we take.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

On the issue of pensioners, that was part of an overall series of recommendations around horizontal equity. I suppose the point is that if everyone regardless of age is treated the same for income tax, USC and PRSI purposes, and then we have a system in place that is adequately benchmarked and is indexed in support, we can protect all households. I know the commission focuses on working age payments, but the Commission on Pensions focused on pensioners. Certainly, NERI would very much be of the view that those recommendations should be extended to older people as well. To support Mr. Nugent's point, I agree that looking at median earnings has to be part of the approach, because on a year-on-year basis inflation tends to be lower than wages, and there is a risk we could fall behind unless we are benchmarking every year. However, the median essential standard of living and focusing on deprivation has to be core to that process as well. It might be that there is a range of indicators that one looks at.

I reiterate the apology for the previous session. I am sorry I am not chairing today, but I have a meeting at 7 p.m. with the Ceann Comhairle. I want to start with chapter 9, which all the witnesses seem to have a slight objection to, which I think is interesting. We have talked a little bit already about chapter 9, but I do not think that kind of approach has solidified. It is interesting that both groups have talked a bit about it. Obviously, the committee has done work on tax expenditures previously. We all learned the hard way how difficult it can be to understand what is going on with the €7 billion or so in tax expenditures. In terms of chapter 9, can I take it as read that both organisations support the idea of consolidation legislation in respect of taxes and the simplification of the tax code?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Yes.

Do the witnesses think that is work that needs to be done to make everything run better, or is it just something that would be nice?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Well, it would certainly be helpful. The tax code is very complex at the moment, which creates issues for legislators as well. I would say that the whole process around tax changes in the Finance Bill every year has to be reformed. It needs to be a much more elongated process which takes place over the whole year, rather than something that is rammed through over a 48-hour period.

We have heard, in previous sessions, that sometimes things go through and it turns out that they do not actually work or there has been a mistake.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Yes. There is a problem there. It has been identified by the committee many times. There needs to be a multi-annual approach to how we deal with tax. It needs to be a more considered approach, particularly when it comes to tax expenditures, which inherently create a lobby group which then supports a measure. For example, we are seeing that with the 9% VAT rate. Groups either support it or do not support it. These things tend to be very sticky and they all have an ongoing cost.

On legislation to consolidate the position with regard to taxes, the question that arises relates to what is the opportunity cost vis-à-vis other aspects of legislation. This would probably take a very long time to do properly. It would involve officials from Revenue and the Parliamentary Budget Office.

My next question was going to be who would do it. We are dealing with a legacy, as it were. It is a legacy of reams and reams of work that has built up over decades of different decisions. We would almost have to track back all the different decisions. Certainly, when we were looking at tax expenditures, it seemed like often the Department just did not know that was happening, or it had not reviewed it in a long time. I wonder if it would be possible to undertake that kind of work in-house. I would almost expect it to have more eyes on it than just that. Would it be fair to say that we would need a more robust system for any kind of tax consolidation than just the Department doing it?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I do not think there is any harm in looking beyond the Department to the Parliamentary Budget Office or the Revenue Commissioners. There would be a lot of human capital there in terms of knowledge, including people who have retired from the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance. There is a significant cohort of people there with immense bodies of knowledge. I certainly think there would be value in bringing it out to committees like this as well. I would be very cautious about bringing it out to a consultancy firm or anything like that, or any body or agency that might have a vested interest, or those who designed the system. I did not say that. I would be very cautious about that.

Academics and consultants, and so forth, should be brought in to sessions like this to have these two-way conversations; but the hard work should be done internally within Departments, but also with Revenue and with the Parliament itself. To do that would be quite a significant body of work.

Has ICTU a view on that?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

To echo Dr. McDonnell's points there, we did not address this specific issue in the submission we made to the commission in early 2022 but we would have no problem with that, in principle.

In addition to Dr. McDonnell's point, this committee has done very good work over recent years. The work this and other committees have done on tax expenditure proved helpful to us when we were preparing our submission.

I will make one further point, tying into that. In the previous recommendation, the commission recommends that the continued use of feedback statements and roadmaps could be better applied to indigenous entities and SMEs. On that point, the updated corporation tax roadmap from 2021 included a commitment to establish a new domestic engagement process in that year.

What does that mean?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

Whatever it means, the point I want to make is that we are not aware if this has been established, and if it has, I do not believe that anybody on this side of the table has been involved.

Can I ask Mr Gibbons to repeat for the committee again his reference to a domestic engagement?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

The corporation tax roadmap included a commitment to establish a new domestic engagement process in 2021. I can dig out the exact reference in the roadmap for the committee.

Can I infer that this was an attempt to engage with indigenous business to see how corporation tax changes agreed at a global scale would affect them?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

I believe so, yes, and, in particular with SMEs, but I believe it also affects people on this side of the table. The point I am making is that we do not know if that engagement process has been established-----

The committee may be able to find that out for Congress.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

----- and if it has, we are not involved. That is just the key point I am making.

Congress is not involved.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

A roadmap for SMEs is not inherently a bad idea at all. It goes to this idea that we need to have a stable tax environment, which nobody disagrees with. We can argue about rates and reliefs, and so forth but we needs to be careful about changing these and there should always be a lead-in time. This is to touch on the idea of how radical decisions are made over a kitchen table the night before a budget, or wherever it might be. This needs to stop and there needs to be a much more rigorous process. When groups are lobbying for particular things, they should be inquired upon, and this should be an inquisitive process.

The concern that is always reflected back when someone says that it needs to be an elongated process, better signposted and more collaborative, is that if it is signposted things too early, it stagnates. People wait for the beneficial rate. Is that fair comment?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

That is the case when talking about changing rates but changing rates, in many respects, is not as significant as bringing in new reliefs, and things like that. If, for example, a capital gains tax rate was being changed significantly up or down, presumably that would only be changed by a few percentage points in a particular year. It would be strange to change it radically, although I acknowledge that has been done in the past. If capital gains tax is radically changed, it will create an artificial threshold point where there will be a great volume of activity right before or after that point of change. That is always going to be the case.

On recommendation 9.6, which is a long one relating to research and development tax credits, the simple question is whether the witnesses believe there is a good sense of what is happening with research and development tax credits now? Is there sufficient budgetary oversight of those issues? Do our guests, as two groups who work in this area, feel that they understand what is happening and the efficacy of those?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

Yes, there is a good understanding of this particular tax credit but it is not reflected in this chapter in the report. That would be one of our concerns about the recommendations in this particular chapter. I understand it was raised in some of the previous discussions with Professor Seamus Coffey at the end of January. I believe he was raising a number of concerns about this point, just from what I have seen of his contribution, but I could be misrepresenting what he said.

There have been some good critiques of this particular tax credit over past number of years. The 2016 Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, Economic Evaluation of the R&D Tax Credit 2016 critique estimated a deadweight of approximately 40% and it hinted that there would be scope to revise this particular tax credit. The tax strategy group paper from last July indicated that the cost rose from approximately €350 million in 2018 to €650 million in the past year. I am aware that the committee is aware of all of these things.

Yes, but it is useful to put them on the record.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

The group said that it expected the cost to increase further. Looking at the figures that are available, the total estimated cost is approximately €2.8 billion between 2016 and 2020. Some 70% of the 2020 cost was claimed by approximately 200 large corporations.

We are not saying that there is no role for a research and development tax credit but considering what happens in other European countries, similar tax credits play a much smaller role. This has been repeatedly flagged in European Commission assessments of this particular scheme. The Commission’s country report in the past year recommended reducing reliance on the research and development tax credit and providing more direct support to SMEs. One of the issues that comes up again and again, which he we hear from our side, is that SMEs find it difficult to access this credit. We believe it would be much better to promote more direct support to SMEs, fostering co-operation in research, development and innovation.

This kind of recommendation was endorsed by the Council of the European Union in the past year. It effectively urged Ireland to use more direct funding instruments instead of the research and development tax credit.

The point we make is that it is not clear that the emphasis in other chapters of the report on being careful about tax credits is reflected in this particular chapter for this particular tax break.

To follow that up, and I do not want to paraphrase Professor Coffey, but would it be fair to say that direct funding might be more efficient for SMEs because, for whatever reason, be it bureaucracy or the labyrinthine nature of some of these tax reliefs, the FDI companies find it easier to access them. I believe Professor Coffey was saying in that session that, in real terms, this relief is being outpaced by changes in the US with its research and development code, in any event, and that it is not necessarily a good use of funds. We talk about productivity in SMEs at this committee all the time but if we had more direct funding, do the witnesses believe that it would be more efficient, not just in having the SMEs access this funding, but in respect of increasing productivity, or any other metric one would choose to use?

Mr. Ger Gibbons

Absolutely, we believe that this would be a better way to go.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

The OECD has pointed out that Ireland is over-reliant on tax expenditures with regard to supports for research and development. Research and development is the classic example of an area where it is appropriate to have a tax expenditure. It is almost the textbook case. Research and development will be under-produced by the market because it will not be able to reap all the benefits. Its uncertainty of production means that it is inherently risky and so forth. There is an economic rationale for having a research and development tax credit or supports of some fiscal nature. The question is: what is the appropriate balance? The vast amount of the credit is used by multinationals.

The Deputy pointed to productivity issues in the domestic sector. We also have to be careful not to compare the domestic sector to US multinationals. They are the superstar firms, have economies of scale, are often monopolist, and their levels of productivity are not the appropriate bar. The appropriate bar is what is happening in other European countries. There are some areas, such as construction, where Ireland seems to do quite poorly for various reasons that are not always necessarily clear.

For the vast majority of firms, they are not very much ever going to be innovative because of the nature of the sector they are in. The scope is just not there. In certain sectors, such as manufacturing, there is always scope for research, development, innovation, improvement of the routinisation, and so forth. With services, that is much more difficult. As Ireland and other western economies have become more services-dependent, and will continue to be so, that would mean that productivity gains in countries that are at the technological cutting-edge will decline over the next few decades, all other things being equal.

The question is to ask how best to address this. The commission talks about various ways of doing this. One way is to try to keep particular people within firms. “Keep” was the focus there. It is also about how firms are linked up to the innovation system. From a Schumpeterian churn perspective, the focus should be on firms which, in many cases, do not even exist yet.

There should be a focus on the higher level sector and looking at high-potential start-up firms, rather than existing firms, which tend not be particularly innovative. If they have been around for a long time, they are set in their ways and have their business model. They do not tend to be the source of much innovation over time, at least not to particularly significant areas. It is about the types of firms and supports that are focused on. Tax credits may have a role. Are they correctly designed at present? Perhaps not. Are they administratively complex? They probably are. It is not clear how SMEs would be given that surety. Revenue cannot do that; that is not its role. Revenue is probably the only one who could give surety and it cannot do so. It will always be an issue. How best to reform is not clear, but it is clear that there is considerable deadweight. We seem to be overaligned, compared to other countries. Direct subsidies, which are inherently more transparent and may carry less deadweight, might be a better way to re-prioritise how we deal with entrepreneurial supports.

I know we are all blue in the face talking about indexation and Dr. McDonnell knows this committee is very much in favour of indexation. He talked a little bit about benchmarking. Can indexation and benchmarking occupy the same space? I wish to be clear in my own mind. Can the Department do it? What differentiation is being made between them?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

They absolutely work together. One needs to be benchmarking against something. It may be the cost of living. I presume it is the cost of living, if it is adequacy. That means it is connected, long term, to what happens with price inflation, which is indexation. One is benchmarking to get to a particular percentage or point, which one believes, through one's empirical analysis, is what gets one to adequacy. There has to be a connection with indexation over the longer-term. In the shorter-term, if one is below the benchmark, that means it is indexation-plus. One has to be higher than inflation. If one is above the benchmark, one could argue it could go the other way, but that may be hard to do in practice. The two will be linked. Benchmarking and indexation are two separate, but closely related, polices that have to work together. The benchmark is the adequacy point but, in the long term, it is about getting to the benchmark and then one can kick into indexation.

The witnesses are welcome to the replay. I apologise that I did not tog out the last time, but I communicated by apologies to Dr. O'Donnell and Mr. Gibbons, individually. We are here now. This is a useful exercise and engagement. The first point I will make about the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report is that Government has had two significant tests since the publication of the report in the middle of September. The first test was budget 2023 and the series of €4 billion in what it described as "once-off measures" that it implemented at the latter end of last year, many of which will melt away, like snow in a ditch, in the next couple of weeks. The Government had another test yesterday of its understanding and comprehension of the report. It seems that, based on those two key tests, the Government either has not read the report or has simply decided to sideline it. Does Dr. McDonnell agree?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Which hat will I wear? The two budgets are not budgets that one would feel are moving lockstep with the commission's reports. There was a continuation of tax expenditures and measures that may have been understandable with the cost-of-living crisis, which worked against the climate agenda. Households could have been protected in different ways. The way to protect households is benchmarking and indexation and focusing on the adequacy issues. To give the Government a pass, one could ask whether there was some administrative reason it could not do it that quickly. However, it had been well signalled from February or March that a cost-of-living crisis was coming.

It could certainly be argued that budget 2023 and the cost-of-living measures announced yesterday are not consistent with the broad findings and recommendations of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare's report, at least, to date. The failure to index welfare payments was especially disappointing in budget 2023. That did not happen yesterday. Inflation in 2022 averaged at 7.8%. We think it might be in the range of 6%. The European Commission came out with a slightly lower figure. That seemed optimistic. There is considerable debate as to what will happen. If that 6% is put on top of the 7.8%, we are looking at 14%. The Government threw once-off measures at various groups, which are helpful and welcome, but its overall plan is likely to lead to deprivation increasing in 2023. Does Mr. Nugent agree with that?

I apologise for interrupting. Today's CSO data in the survey on income and living conditions, SILC, were interesting. They show exactly that: deprivation levels are rising. Government may argue those data are from before the introduction of the measures it brought in towards the latter end of last year and do not reflect them. That may very well be the case but, nonetheless, they are troubling. Does Mr. Nugent agree?

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

It is pre-inflation, as well.

Once-off payments tend to be-----

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

Today's report is from the first half of 2022. Deprivation rates increased by approximately four points, which is somewhere in the region of 200,000 people. The minimum wage increase, although it was not the biggest percentage increase ever, is already worth less, in real terms, than it was in 2020. There is a bit of a lag with those deprivation indicators. In the past year, the wage data are a little bit up to date. We know that wages fell, on average, by approximately 5% or 6% in the past year. We will get some more data next week. They will likely be even worse than that. There is a bit of a lag. More people are likely to be in deprivation, as we speak, than the 17% who were in deprivation in 2022. That is the reason cost-of-living benchmarking, indexing, etc., are so important. The example I always give is the at-risk-of-poverty threshold, which is the classic 60% of the median income. Through the years of the great financial crisis, it hardly moved. It did not rise. Everybody who lived through that knows that poverty rose in that time. We could be looking at something similar. We could measure people whose standard of living decreases over a year, but considering it not have decreased, if we calculate it on these relative income measures.

The simplest and most straightforward thing to do - we should all have a collective understanding of this - if we are to address questions around income adequacy and are determined to address issues around deprivation, is through increases in the core rates of social welfare, which match or beat inflation. The Government decided not to do that and took a different approach.

I am attracted to the idea of using the minimum essential standard of living, MESL in the benchmarking process and having a permanent benchmarking commission. Having this as an instrument of the political system every year, whereby social welfare is increased and a big reveal on budget day is simply no way to do business. I agree we need an evidential basis to move forward. With regard to tax expenditures, when I read the ESRI 2021 report, I was salivating. The report was a page turner. It pointed out exactly what it is we needed to do with expensive tax reliefs that roll over, uninterrogated, every year, by the tax strategy group or anybody. It simply does not happen in the way that other policy measures are rigorously interrogated through the government process. They have established a permanency that is troubling. They have often outlived their usefulness, if they were ever useful, or never had any efficacy in the first place.

We tend in this State to copy examples of what might have occurred in the UK, for example. If it did not work there, it takes us ten years to realise. After spending several hundred millions or billions of euro, we suddenly understand it does not work and then it is wound down.

I wish to make a point about tax expenditures. I think the witnesses may agree with me. It goes back to the lessons learned or how far the Government is prepared to go to understand these lessons and the signals the Commission on Taxation and Welfare was sending about tax expenditures. Again yesterday, there was an announcement of the extension of the 9% VAT rate reduction for the hospitality sector, a sector that is absolutely dependent on and obsessed with low-paid and insecure work, with no conditions attached whatsoever. That is a massive transfer of funds from the taxpayer to an industry in which it has already been established there is a deadweight issue by the Department of Finance. We repeat this time and time again. If we are looking for is evidence of why we should have a better and robust process to try to establish on an evidential basis what works and what does not, that is exactly it. It is staring us straight in the face. I assume the witnesses have a view on the extension of the 9% VAT rate. There is no such thing as an independent economist. People bring their own views to the table. Others in the field, such as academic economists, said there was no policy basis or responsible economic argument for this whatsoever. It was purely a political decision. It beggars belief, frankly.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I have a view on the 9% VAT rate. The Deputy will be unsurprised to hear that like most economists, I think it was a mistake but it is much more of a mistake now because of the strength of the sector. The economy is running very hot. We are at full employment. The beneficiaries of that measure tend to be middle-class households who go to expensive restaurants or hotels. Those households currently have a savings ratio of almost 20%, which is double the historical average. Net wealth is at record levels. There is a cost-of-living crisis for some people, which is why we need indexation, benchmarking and other targeted measures, but for other households it is not really there at all. The commission recommended that there should not be temporary reductions in VAT in response to the economic cycle. It was very clear on that. I do not believe you will find an independent economist who thinks its extension was a good idea. I regard this as a victory for political economy over economic and sustainability concerns. We have a monetary authority, the European Central Bank, ECB, which is tightening monetary policy, on one side. You can agree or disagree with its strategy; we will leave that aside. Then you have a fiscal authority, the Government, on the other side, which is refusing to fully insulate and protect the weakest members of society. Perhaps that is the wrong choice of words because it is not intentional, I am sure. At the same time, without any economic analysis around it and with even its own Departments' work in the past stating it is not a good idea, it continues that for another six months. It is confounding, frankly. Mr. Gibbons may have a view.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

I wish to agree 100% with everything Dr. McDonnell has said. It is something we have looked at carefully over the last number of years. The justification or conclusion we reached is that when it was originally introduced in 2011, there may have been a jobs impact initially, but that quickly dissipated in response to other things that happened around the same time. If you look back to the costs going back to 2011, they are over €3 billion or so, I think. It seems to us that the various lobby groups arguing in favour of these measures are putting all of their efforts into this and not really addressing the challenges this sector faces. The Deputy mentioned working conditions. The poor and precarious working conditions for people who work in this sector are the big issues in the sector. These are the things that should be addressed. The other key point is that, as we have highlighted again and again, this is going to a sector that refuses to engage in the State's industrial relations machinery. Instruments have been put in place by this Parliament that are effectively being vetoed by a lobby group. That is the situation we are in. It is completely going down the wrong road.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

We are talking about working conditions. On average, weekly pay in this sector is about 30% less than the next-worst of the 14 or 15 sectors on which the CSO collects data on accommodation and food, etc.. You see it in the housing assistance payment, HAP, figures. The State already has to bail out this sector in a lot of ways. There are precarious working conditions, minimum wage workers, temporary workers, part-time workers, all that kind of stuff. When you look at the gross value added to the economy, it is down 2% or 3%. We should not be conferring unfair advantage on literally the worst sector in Ireland. Generally speaking, a developed country does not focus on tourism. Obviously, there are two kinds of economies in Ireland, the domestic and the multinational and everything like that. Going forward, a lot of the stuff in the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report is about focusing on high-end employment. Two hospitality workers cannot start a family or buy a house in this country. There is no chance. The average wage is around €350 a week. The pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, came in around that, as a minimum. Their average weekly wage does not even come close to the living wage if you calculate it on a weekly basis. It is probably hurting us economically.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. We are all sorry about what happened at the last meeting but it was unavoidable.

I will start at the end, which was the discussion on the 9% VAT rate. Coming from the tourism capital of the western world, County Kerry, I have to throw my tuppence worth into the issue. I deal with many hoteliers and people involved in that industry on a regular basis. I heard it being said that only well-off people would be going to restaurants, or perhaps expensive restaurants. What about the people running hotels and trying to make it affordable to have weddings and functions? What about the people working in those establishments who rely on them for work and young people getting training in those hotels? We do not want them to close because they are not able to make money. They told me, and I listened to them, that they needed the VAT rate to stay where it is was because if it did not, that would have been detrimental to them, their businesses, their employees and, of course, the people who use their services. I have to say that. We are talking about the sustainability of this sector. It has been called a win, a political decision or something to that effect, rather than saying it was a sensible measure to help businesses to continue. We must remember that because of the increased cost of electricity, heating and gas, etc., these businesses are probably worse off now than they were at the time of Covid. The Covid business supports that were available at that time are not there now. Running a business is not for the faint-hearted. I wanted to get that point in.

I would like to speak about self-employed people and tax. What is there for them? There should be a focus on the attractiveness of being an employer and trying to keep a small business going. Instead of talking about employment incentives, we seem to putting in place more disincentives.

The main thing that happens, which we saw during the last crash, is that when the work stopped and businesses shut down, the employees were rightly able to get payments and assistance in some shape or fashion. However, the employers and the people who were running these businesses were not able to qualify for anything. We still see today that people are in a vulnerable position when they are running a business and when they are employing people. They are disincentivised and if anything goes wrong with that business they are left out on a limb, which is of great concern to everybody, employers and employees alike.

The issue of the fuel allowance was touched on earlier. I welcome the changes that came in during the first week in January to open up the availability of fuel allowance and make it more attainable for more people. With the high cost of fuel, heat and energy bills people have, now more than ever people are looking for the fuel allowance and it really makes a big difference to them. There are an awful lot of people, in my humble opinion, who should be receiving it but who are not receiving it yet or who cannot receive it, even since the first week in January and the changes that were made then. I want to hear what the witnesses have to say about broadening that even further than it has been. I welcome what was done in the last budget but more should be done. We never heard of the term "fuel poverty" many years ago, but now you would not go an hour without dealing with it, hearing it in a debate or reading about it in a newspaper. People are not imagining that or making it up; it is an issue. Heating people's homes is an issue.

I have more things I could say but I want to keep it short and sweet. I thank the witnesses and I appreciate them coming. It is great to have people with expertise and knowledge come in to give a presentation and take questions from the likes of ourselves. I am grateful and I thank and respect them for their time.

Would the witnesses like to make any comments on those points?

Dr. Laura Bambrick

I will jump in on the point on fuel allowance. As the Deputy mentioned, there were big changes to the fuel allowance qualifying requirements from January. A lot of the headlines were about the increase in the amount of weekly income a pensioner or pensioner couple could have and the amount of savings they could have. Those changes are valuable but a lot of people, as the Deputy probably knows from his clinics, were just over the threshold. They might get a small increase on their occupational pension, but that meant they could not get the fuel allowance. One of the significant changes that was brought in for the fuel allowance in January got little coverage. One of the qualifying requirements for over-70s is that you had to be in receipt of a weekly social welfare payment. This includes former civil servants or someone who might live in Kerry and who has worked abroad for years and does not have an Irish State pension. All of a sudden they might have been on modest incomes but they were not eligible for the fuel allowance. That changed in January and that is one of the big changes that will bring a lot of those 80,000 new applicants into the fuel allowance. If it is something the Deputy was not aware of, when he is talking to people who are coming into his clinics, talking about access will help a lot of people.

There was a lot of coverage yesterday and in the lead-up to the announcement of the cost-of-living measures about making working poor families that are in receipt of the family income supplement eligible for the fuel allowance. We would have concerns around that, while recognising that a lot of these families are working part-time hours and not being eligible for the fuel allowance. There are poverty and employment traps there so it would mean nearly €1,000 extra in fuel allowance going in over the course of the year. Then that becomes a disincentive for those workers to move on to full-time work or look for a promotion. The Department has to strike the balance between addressing a pressing need that people understandably have, especially during the cost-of-living crisis, and building in disincentives. It comes back to the point made earlier that when we have low-pay and low-hours employment and we have to match them up with weekly payments and weekly top-up payments, we have to make sure that is not building in disincentives and subsidising insecure and low-paid jobs. It is a difficult balance but a lot of positive work has been done on the over-70s and we would hope to see that built on.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

I will make a short comment on that. It might be a bit outside of the scope of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare but this is an argument for us tackling climate issues, especially the retrofitting of the social housing stock. Instead of that being a cost every year going forward, you front-end that and invest in upgrading old stock, which a disproportionate number of social welfare recipients will be living in. Especially with the Ukraine war and something similar continuing, and we are still at 8% inflation, that is an argument for State intervention into improving the building stock in Ireland.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. I am next but we have to make sure that if there is a vote in the Dáil we will be able to attend it. I had prepared questions, but then I was listening to the conversation and now I have a variety of different questions. I will start with what happened yesterday and the conversation around social welfare because a lot of the time the conversation, even sometimes in the media or among working people you would be talking to, can be misunderstood. One of the things that jumped out at me was what Dr. McDonnell said about it not being evidence-based. If that was in the conversation more, that would have been helpful. I might start off with yesterday and the likes of the spring bonus, for want of a better phrase, of €200 being announced. How could that have been better spent? I know Dr. McDonnell has talked about benchmarking but I ask him, or whoever would like to do so, to comment on that initially.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

I will assume the package was always going to be €1.2 billion. The Government approached it such that this was to be a once-off package of temporary measures. It ought to have made amends for the failure to index in budget 2023. That would have been a permanent uplift but an indexation process is always sustainable because it will be a function of wage growth and the cost of living in the economy, and that is an input into the size of GDP growth. That would have been a sustainable thing to do and it would have been a once-off uplift. That is probably where I would have focused it. It is not always necessarily the right thing to do to respond instantly. I do not see what the incentive was in February to provide a 9% VAT rate extension. I do not see the economic logic to that at all. That is how I would have done it. I would have had a mini-budget to make amends for the oversights in budget 2023, then waited to see how inflation developed over the coming months and waited for budget 2024 to do it properly.

What was done almost seems to have been done because it was expected. That does not really answer the question.

It is a fair point. Our clinics were mentioned earlier. The deprivation we see in our clinics is absolutely horrendous. People come into our clinics and tell us things they would not tell a friend or neighbour. We see deprivation at first hand. We do not live through it, however, and maybe that is part of the issue too. I am acutely aware that it is not just a matter of figures and numbers but also a matter of real people's lives.

I have two separate questions and do not know which to ask first. I might ask them in a general way, and we can go from there. I like the phrase "not evidence based". It is really good. I have never used it but believe it is important. Yesterday I was doing some media work and the first question I was asked was about what was happening to people who are working. That is not to say there are not plenty of people in deprivation who are working – I do not mean it that way – but the conversation is often framed as being about these people against these people rather than looking at society as a whole. That is a big issue that I encounter.

I have two questions on the phrase "not evidence based". Are our guests saying the current rates are not evidence based?

On the PUP, Mr. Nugent referred to the €350. This was the kind of income he saw people in the hospitality sector working for. He said the average weekly wage just does not equate with the living wage in any shape or form. While the €350 was welcome, does Mr. Nugent feel it was based on evidence or a decision plucked out of thin air?

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

At the time, it seemed that way, but it was indicative of the absolute inadequacy of the €188 that came before it. It was out of the blue. I never saw the cost of living totted up as €350 or anything like that. The Vincentian MESL Research Centre picks a normal basket of goods. I always point out that a weekly food budget of €50 is used for a single adult. If you get a sandwich five times per week, that is half your budget. Therefore, the budget is really the minimum. On a weekly basis, the figure would be much more than €350. The calculation is actually based on a 39-hour week as well. One could do the research with a round table. The budget is based on a single adult but reasonable calculations could be done that account for the additional costs associated with children, etc.

Some of the comments on going in this direction rather than using a medium wage or median income imply people would be fighting over what is the minimum amount or essential amount. I pointed out before that there was a conversation in the UK a couple of weeks ago on costs. It was stated that Weetabix three times a day costs only a pound or something like that. One might have people who want to contribute in that manner. However, if you look at how they calculate the living wage, you see that everything is minimal. We could not see anybody trying to undercut it. It is as if a bus ticket, shampoo or cleaning products are not needed. The actual figure is between €450 and €500 for a single adult. That is a national figure, not one for Dublin. These considerations should be at the fore in benchmarking for adequacy and the cost of living. Maybe the figure should be inflation based.

In an ideal world, someone might suggest to the delegates that there should be a change of Government, but I would not suggest anything to them. If something were to change overnight and the payments could be benchmarked, how long would it take the people to get out of deprivation? Surely it is not just a matter of getting €400 to €500 suddenly. I would imagine that the living standard would be substandard at that point, and people could well be in debt. What is the theory behind this? What are the projections?

Dr. Tom McDonnell

It depends on the cost and the period of time in question. First, one would set up the benchmarking commission, which would include academics, the likes of Mr. Nugent and others, to do the empirical work. It would not take multiple years to do that. Let us say the system you end up with is based on the working-age payment, which would be tapered on the basis of income. Income is key because it is a question of sufficiency. There would be an additional cost for certain groups, such as those experiencing disability. This would entail more than a binary decision on whether one was disabled or not. Lone parents, renters and others would be accounted for. There would be a whole process. The impact of additional adults in a household would also be considered. The rate might not be 200% if there are two adults. All of these things would have to be figured out. That is what I mean when I say we need to proceed on the basis of evidence. At the moment, we are kind of making it up, which is not really good enough.

It is not just about the income side because it is also about universal basic services. If there are subsidised universal basic services that are effectively de-commodified or close to it, such as close-to-free public transport and genuinely free education and universal healthcare for everyone, income supports do not have to be as significant. A better way to have addressed the cost-of-living crisis would have been to have aimed for permanent reductions in the out-of-pocket expenses associated with using public services. The Government could immediately do this because it is receiving the income. It could have hit directly, reducing the cost of living. The European Central Bank would be happy because the arrangement would be deflationary, reducing costs in the economy. That approach would have been better than, say, cutting taxes for higher earners. It would entail a multi-year process, not something one would do in one year.

That is what I mean. There are so many definitions.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

One would be moving towards that point. It would probably be a matter of "indexation plus" for several years. This speaks to the fact that we need to have a serious conversation about revenue sufficiency in Ireland. We are just not there. It is a difficult conversation for everybody and is not popular. Our ageing population will result in additional costs and we have to pay for climate change transition. If the latter succeeds, we will lose all our carbon-based revenue. The yield from carbon tax will be zero if net zero is achieved. We will have to ask whether the corporation tax yield will be sustainable. It will be a multi-year process but step one would be to set up the commission on an evidence basis. Like a low-pay commission or something like that, its role would not be to tell the Government what to do but to give it a range and to advise. It would be the Government's decision as to whether to adhere to the advice.

Out of interest, I want to ask the delegates about their view on a job guarantee scheme. Is that question a bit broad? I have other questions that I have prepared but this matter arises from the conversation. Having listened to what Deputy Michael Healy-Ray said about the fuel allowance, we went into a fuel allowance conversation. On the few points made, I actually agree that retrofitting all the houses is required. We want people living in adequate housing. Generally when I get called to a house, I do not see black mould. It is that bad. I was speaking to a constituent today who has chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. She wants to replace the range that she must have for decades with a stove, but the problem is that the authorities will not allow her to get a stove. They want her to move to oil but she says she can in no way afford that. Since it will take so long to retrofit some houses, some things may need to be done in that regard.

I wanted to say that because it is something that came up in my life today. Would anyone like to comment on those two issues?

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

To follow on quickly, it is related, obviously, to the cost-of-living issues. Housing is the elephant in the room. The living wage has taken such a jump this year. This year it is inflation but for the past six or seven years, it has always been housing. Housing is the biggest chunk. This is the role of the State in entering markets to bring down costs. It is the same with retrofitting.

I wrote a paper for Nevin Economic Research Institute advocating for that and for the State to intervene and employ retrofitters. It should employ young people in good apprenticeships with a good horizon on their career and guarantee employment. It should just do it. The private sector can come in as well and learn from that.

Young people now could, in ten years time, split off and have their own private companies. It would bring down the cost of everything relatively quickly. The skills needed to retrofit a house is a relatively quick apprenticeship. There are a few different ones but generally speaking, it would not take all that much time to ramp up with a bit of ambition and a view to doing it.

Does anyone else wish to come in on that? Please go ahead and jump in.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

I will pick up on Mr. McDonnell's and Mr. Nugent's points. In our opening remarks, we made reference to the directive on adequate minimum wages. We think that establishes, or seeks to establish, a framework for achieving an adequate minimum wage over an unspecified period. It is not in one year but it would be over a multi-year period.

This is the key point, however. It is a framework that could possibly be useful for achieving adequate social protection rates. It talks about achieving an adequate minimum wage and says this should be done with the consultation and involvement of employers, trade unions and key stakeholders. Therefore, there is a framework.

The Government is just now beginning to talk about transposing that legislation. Discussions will have to take place with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, IBEC, anti-poverty groups, the National Women's Council of Ireland and a whole range of other groups. There is a framework that could be of relevance to what we are discussing here.

We did not address the jobs guarantee in our submission. As far as I am aware, ICTU has not taken a formal position on it yet.

It is just something in which I am interested.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

It is something we are looking at, however. We have just not taken a formal position.

I like to ask everybody who comes in out of interest more than anything.

Dr. Laura Bambrick

To follow up on that, in case the Vice Chair is not aware, an area in Austria is currently doing a pilot about job guarantee.

I did not know that. Where in Austria?

Dr. Laura Bambrick

I would struggle to pronounce it but I can follow up with the Vice Chairman. A group of economists out of Oxford are actually following it. It is like a real live experiment and the provisional findings from it have been very successful. This is about jobs that are paid at the minimum level, however. I do not know, but their minimum wage could be more generous than ours. As Mr. Gibbons said, we have not looked into it. This is just to let the committee know that a live pilot is currently going on. I will follow up with the secretariat with the details on that.

I will mention a few more issues. One of the cost-of-living announcements that went under the radar yesterday was the roll-out of free school meals in all DEIS schools and a commitment to look at free school meals in all schools. This will be hugely helpful to those working parents who feel they do not qualify for anything or that they are dependent purely on their earned income. We have been looking at this in London over the past few years where some of their burroughs have introduced free school meals. Previously, people had to apply for this and show that the household income was below a certain amount. They showed that introducing free school meals takes an income stress off the family. Like Mr. McDonnell mentioned, it is those reduced out-of-pocket costs. It has resulted in really good attendance records. Schools were struggling to get certain children back after Covid-19. It is, therefore, a real win-win. That was rolled out in all DEIS schools but a commitment was made to look at this for all schools. It is a bit like the roll-out of free school books in primary schools from September. We can reduce those costs for those parents who are working and feel the only thing they get is the monthly children's allowance. These things then get public buy-in. People are invested in our social spending and do not just see our welfare system as being for others. They see it as something they can rely on as well.

On a final point of information, there is a plan within the Department to start benchmarking the State pension from January of next year. Deputy Nash asked the question about what Government has done wrong or what it could have done in the past 18 months since the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report was published. There is one thing it could have done better. When the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report was published, the Department of Social Protection came back within six months and said it was not going to increase the pension age, but that many other recommendations were made by this commission and this was what it was going to do. One of those recommendations was around benchmarking the State pension. Therefore, from January next year, we will see a number of those commission recommendations being worked through. It would be really helpful if Government was to make an official response the the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and let us know what it accepts or rejects and what the road map is for implementing it. It has been really helpful for us to look at and follow the commission on pensions. That is just one point.

Yes, of course. That is really good. I will hit on public enterprise and the role it can play in some of the serious deficiencies we have, of which there are a few. We have seen people in The Irish Times moaning that the State does not have the capacity to do things and saying it needs to be privatised and all of that. We are currently seeing proposals for a relaxation of the EU state aid rules. I would be interested in the whole concept of a public enterprise. The witnesses touched on people being able to train and get skills and all of that. Would anyone have views on the role of a public enterprise in the future?

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

I will make a point on construction. I am sure Mr. McDonnell has some comments on the wider issue. We are hearing that we are almost at full employment. We have more people employed than ever before but still, apparently, construction cannot find workers. In Ireland, obviously, we know the sector is inherently unstable and it is not very attractive.

We know that through the financial crisis, higher education was beneficial. The people who really felt the brunt were those with lower levels of skills or education; not lower levels but with less time having gone into their education in places like construction in particular. Aside from that, the working conditions of the workers in that sector never came back from 2007.

Bogus self-employment is a big issue. Apprenticeship rates at 16 or 17 years of age are below the minimum wage. They are sometimes half the minimum wage now, although not quite.

On bogus self-employment, one thing that always struck me is that people do not talk about bogus self-employment, but there is always talk about PRSI.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

That is a big issue. It is not my area but there are estimates out there about how much that costs the State.

They say it is €1 billion. That is what we have been hearing.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

The State is maybe half looking away and very well aware of the issues in that regard.

It is revenue from the State but it is clear that it is very unattractive as an option for younger workers. It is not necessarily that those opportunities are there either. If the State intervened and did what it did in the past, it could provide a floor in conditions in which the private sector would have to compete for workers and set out some kind of stable career path for people who want to choose it. There are plenty of people who want to choose that, who are incentivised to go to higher education now, and perhaps if the conditions were different they would not, especially in an environment of full employment where those opportunities should be easy enough to come by, the wages should be better, and there should be permanency. Even agency workers feature in construction. That also applies to retrofitting existing building stock.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Just to follow on from that, I will make two points, the first on the job guarantee. In particular during times like the great financial crisis something like that would have been very helpful. The one caveat is that people should not be compelled. That would always be the risk-----

Yes, that would be the risk.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

-----that it would degenerate into that. I agree with everything Mr. Nugent has said. One of the rationales that the commission had on the self-employed PRSI side was the issue of bogus self-employment. That would help to deal with one of the issues associated with it, by disincentivising it on the workers' side at least.

I agree with the point on the role of public enterprise. Housing is the first port of call here, as well as the extension of public transport. That is also public enterprise, but housing is the main one. About five years ago the Nevin Economic Research Institute, NERI, published a paper advocating effectively for the creation of a housing semi-State, which would be a game changer. Radical action was needed at the time and even before that, back in 2015 and 2016. Time has moved on and things have gotten worse. There is a need for a radical move there. We do have a lack of construction workers and skills in the sector. Whether that involves bringing people in from abroad or training them up, there will be a lag in terms of solving the housing crisis. Perhaps some of the extra tax corporation receipts could be used on a once-off basis to set up a semi-State for that purpose and then it can use its own seed capital to borrow on the markets if need be. Part of its funding could be towards upskilling or reskilling workers to be construction workers over a period as well, and to engage in a large campaign of building cost-rental housing.

More modern methods of construction would be very important as well.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Of course. As a new company it would begin with those modern methods without any investment in other techniques. Again, it would take a period of time to set up properly. It is not something that could be set up in 12 months, at least not with the appropriate level of workers required, but the housing crisis is not going away. It is going to take some years to solve. We have seen not just in Ireland but in almost every other country that it is an extremely volatile market. That creates a volatility for workers and makes it extremely unattractive, but having a State player in the market can make construction much more attractive. It is not just about building houses but also, as Mr. Nugent mentions, retrofitting, the just transition and the particular skills we will need to develop over the next five, ten or 15 years to make the net-zero transition. Mr. Nugent and a colleague, Paul Goldrick-Kelly, wrote a paper on those skill sets a number of years ago. That is a longer way of saying that we would be in favour of public enterprise, and we think that construction in the housing sector needs to be the first port of call because there is no evidence whatsoever that it is being solved.

I completely agree.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

We need to move quickly, knowing that it is going to take a number of years to get off the ground.

Mr. Ciarán Nugent

It is again in the news this week that employers are having difficulty recruiting in Dublin because of the cost of housing. In terms of international competitiveness, it puts upward pressure on wages and that is not a good thing in such an open economy as ours as it puts upward pressure on wages in every sector. Tackling that makes the whole country and economy more competitive.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

I will pick up on the point about bogus self-employment. We just completed a submission last week to the Revenue Commissioners, who are doing a review of their statement of strategy for 2023 to 2026. One of the issues that we raised in the submission we sent to them was that they have repeatedly acknowledged over the years that bogus self-employment is a problem in the construction sector, but if we look at their annual reports, the number of what they call interventions or checks in the sector has been declining in recent years. They are not the only ones involved: it is also with the Department of Social Protection and the Workplace Relations Commission. Off the top of my head, I think the number of checks that they conducted in 2018 was about 16,000, in 2019 it was about 13,000, but in 2020 and 2021 - admittedly during the pandemic - it fell to about 7,000. We acknowledge that it was during the pandemic, but there seems to be a declining pattern in recent years. They are not the only people involved, as other State agencies are involved as well, but when they do checks, they raise revenue. The amount of revenue that they have returned from people who were misclassified as bogusly self-employed has been declining in recent years. It is something that we raised in our submission to Revenue last week, and it is something we will be raising as well with the Department of Social Protection and the Workplace Relations Commission.

I thank the witnesses. That has been very interesting. I am conscious that a vote could be called at any moment. I will not go into section 110, which is one of my other hobbies. My hobbies are unusual. I might leave it at that unless anybody wants to say anything else.

Mr. Ger Gibbons

Could I just raise one other issue that we outlined in our statement to the committee? Recommendation 9.1 relates to the endorsement of Ireland's corporate tax strategy. It is an issue that raised eyebrows when we were looking at it because there are concerns about the aggressive tax planning that has been flagged in Ireland in terms of money laundering. It is one of the recommendations that we had issues with in chapter 9. It is something that European Commission country reports have raised repeatedly in recent years. The Commission has acknowledged that Ireland is taking steps to tackle aggressive tax planning but its conclusion is that limited progress is being made. I wanted to flag that issue before we finish.

Dr. Tom McDonnell

Could I make a point about recommendation 9.1? It states it endorses the current corporate tax strategy. Ireland was long a dissenter in terms of the international process and worked hard to keep the rate as low as possible. It is the case that in lesser developed countries, LDCs, from an economic perspective, it is often very difficult to raise receipts from non-corporates, so therefore there is a concern that if the global corporation tax standard becomes 15%, which is much lower than it would be in many LDCs, that may have a negative impact upon their revenue yield in the long term, which could be detrimental. I ask members to note that point on the record that Ireland's particular stance in terms of corporation tax strategy would be a concern from an international solidarity perspective.

That concludes this meeting. I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting today. Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht chuig an gcruinniú. Tá brón orainn gur tharla an méid a tharla cúpla seachtain ó shin.

The select committee adjourned at 7.19 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 March 2023.
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