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Committee on Public Petitions debate -
Thursday, 29 Sep 2022

Consideration of Public Petition on Reform of Insurance for Thatched Heritage Buildings: Discussion

Our next business is our engagement with Ms Katie McNelis, petitioner, on petition No. 00036/21, reform of information for thatched heritage buildings.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if any of their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that the witnesses comply with such direction. Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Ms Katie McNelis, the petitioner, Mr. Eoin Darby, a thatch property owner, both of whom are here in person, and Mr. Ciaran McDonnell of the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group, who is appearing virtually over MS Teams. I understand Ms McNelis and Mr. Darby will make the opening statements. I suggest that both should make their opening statements for around ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members. Each member will have around ten minutes. Members may speak more than once.

Ms Katie McNelis

I thank the Chairman and the committee for giving me the opportunity to come here today and speak about the petition I started in September 2021, which so far has gathered in excess of 1,000 signatures. I started this petition because I grew up in a thatched property in a rural village in County Tipperary. This property was also the family business, a public house which was run by my parents since 1976, at the time the third generation of our family to do so. Sadly, my father passed away in 2020, and in April 2021, my mother got a letter from her insurance brokers saying the underwriters would no longer provide insurance cover as they had withdrawn from the Irish market. I stepped in at this point to help my mother to try to find insurance cover. I contacted many insurance companies and underwriters, but nobody would take the cover at an affordable price. She had a commercial and thatched listed public house which she then could not open. I have had many brokers searching to see if they could get anyone to take her policy. I have had refusals from all insurance brokers, companies and underwriters, with the majority stating they just do not cover such risks.

One company stated it would only quote if the thatch property was residential and not commercial. Regrettably, the decision was taken to close the pub this year and to try to get domestic insurance as there was the only one remaining company taking on new clients. No sooner had we closed the business than this company had closed its books to domestic thatch properties, stating its quota for thatch cover was full. My most recent rejection was in August this year, stating the company was not suitable for us as the property was owner-occupied. I have contacted the Central Bank, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, Insurance Ireland, the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, Brokers Ireland, my local heritage officers, county councillors and politicians, but no one seems to be able or willing to do anything about insurance for thatch properties.

I have requested that the building be removed from the protected structures listing to see if we could change the roof to get insurance, but to date we have had no response. I must stress this is not something our family wishes to do, as my parents have proudly and lovingly maintained this thatch property at great a cost to themselves down through the years. Removing the thatch is a last resort, but at present this may be the only way to get insurance. As it stands, with the property classed as a listed building, should anything happen to it, my mother would be obliged by law to return the building to its listed state at her own cost. If my 81-year-old mother failed to do this, she potentially could face two years in jail and-or be liable for a fine of up to €12.7 million, as stated in the Planning and Development Act 2000. In the 46 years since my parents took on the family home, they have never made a claim. During this period, they have on three occasions completely replaced the thatch roof to maintain it and our heritage to its highest standard. My mother has had no cover since July 2021, which I know is a huge worry for her and for me. She is afraid to have anyone in her home in case they have an accident and make a claim. That is just not living. Covid-19 was enough isolation for anyone, but this is worse because something can be done about it.

I am here today because all of the groups I mentioned above are clueless on how to resolve it and offer no support. If our Government cannot resolve it, then we may as well say goodbye to our thatch heritage. Currently, insurance companies are not breaking any rules. There needs to be a change for heritage properties. Even before my mother’s policy lapsed, it was always difficult to get affordable insurance. Brexit made this worse, and what few companies there were have since closed their books one by one, reducing the insurance market, driving prices up for those lucky enough to have insurance on a thatched property, and ultimately leaving many in a thatched property with no insurance. This is what drove me to start this petition. Little did I know that it is affecting so many people in Ireland. I am only one individual, but I know I speak for many - people who have strong desires to maintain their heritage, at great cost, and at the same time are being punished for doing so.

I reached out to others via social media and many people began to contact me. This led to the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group being formed. The group’s aim is to drive awareness and campaign for a resolution to the thatched properties insurance crisis. There is a problem with a lack of insurance availability and affordability in Ireland. Any person whose insurance has lapsed, became unaffordable or could not avail of it previously cannot get insurance for their thatched property. The impact of this is that if people accept the risk, it may lead to thatch properties being unable to be freely bought, sold or maintained. This is an urgent and immediate matter that could cost the nation our traditional built heritage. There are many other issues regarding thatch that were looked at in the past in a report commissioned by the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in 2005. This report has remained on paper.

Thatch is one of 45 sectors in Ireland where insurers will not provide cover. Our group looked at options in other countries like the UK, where the insurance sector, in conjunction with the Government there, worked on schemes to make the flood cover as part of home insurance more widely available. Could a similar scheme for thatch properties be investigated here? We want to see action now so that we protect, appreciate and maintain our heritage. If things do not change with thatch insurance, there is a chance there will not be any thatch left in the country. If we do not have action now, our thatch heritage could be gone within a generation.

Mr. Eoin Darby

I thank to the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to speak today on the issue of thatch insurance. I am a self-employed chartered quantity surveyor with a postgraduate diploma in applied building repair and conservation. I have significant experience in the area of repairing and maintaining period and vernacular-style properties. To give a sense of my journey in the saga of thatch insurance, following my passion of restoring old buildings, in July 2020, my wife and I purchased a semi-derelict cottage dating from the 1840s in Malahide, north County Dublin. Unfortunately, over the years it had many poor quality alterations carried out on it. The original thatched roof was removed in the 1950s and replaced with an asbestos slate roof. My understanding is that, in the 1950s, a house without a functioning roof was considered ruined and therefore did not attract the relevant property tax. It is evident the issue of maintaining thatch roofs and keeping the buildings they cover in use has been around for many decades.

After engaging an architect and considering our design options for the house, I felt the correct route to restore this cottage was to reinstate the thatched roof for the following reasons. It was built in 1840 and would have been thatched originally, given the vernacular style of the building. It is a semi-detached cottage built as one of a pair. The cottage next door, which is a protected structure, is also thatched. The appearance and appeal of both houses would be greatly improved by removing the asbestos roof and replacing it with a thatched roof to mirror the cottage next door. I have a passion for keeping traditional building skills alive and felt this would be a great project to showcase how an old, tired cottage could be turned into a modern family home while respecting the history and traditional style of the existing cottage. I was fully aware of the risks, issues, costs and intricacies of going down the road of restoring an old cottage, having worked for almost 15 years as a quantity surveyor, primarily in the residential sector in construction.

In the latter half of 2020, we embarked on the arduous task of applying for planning permission to extend and refurbish the cottage. This is where the issues began. Unfortunately, Fingal County Council did not see the merit or logic in reinstating the thatched roof and suggested we either re-slate it or use an alternative material. For the planning department to consider a thatch roof, I would have to prove it had been thatched in the past. I found this quite odd considering it was clearly a pair of semi-detached cottages from the same era, with next door being thatched, but I entertained this and engaged an architectural historian at a considerable expense. The architectural historian, using records from Griffith's Valuation, the 1901 and 1911 censuses and various historical maps, could identify the house, who lived there and establish clearly the house was once thatched in the past.

This is what drove me to start this petition. Little did I know that it is affecting so many people in Ireland. I am only one individual but I know I speak for many people who have strong desires to maintain their heritage at great cost and at the same time being punished for doing so. I reached out to others via social media and many people began to contact me. This led to the Thatch Insurance Action Group being formed. The group’s aim is to drive awareness and campaign for a resolution to the thatched properties insurance crisis. There is a problem with a lack of insurance availability and affordability in Ireland. Any person whose insurance has lapsed, or became unaffordable, or could not avail of it previously, cannot get insurance for their thatched property. The impact of this is that if people accept the risk, it may lead to thatch properties being unable to be freely bought, sold or maintained. This is an urgent and immediate matter that could cost the nation our traditional built heritage. There are many other issues regarding thatch that in the past were looked at in a report commissioned by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, as it was known then, in 2005. This report has remained on paper. Thatch one of 45 sectors in Ireland where insurers will not provide cover, our group looked at options in other countries like the UK where the insurance sector in conjunction with the Government worked on schemes to make the flood cover part of home insurance more widely available. Could a similar scheme for thatch properties be investigated here? We want to see action now so that we protect, appreciate and maintain our heritage. If things don’t change with thatch insurance, there’s a chance that there won’t be any thatch left in the country. If we don’t have action now, within a generation our thatch heritage could be gone.

On review, Fingal County Council eventually agreed to grant us planning permission for the thatched roof.

The next hurdle we faced was finding a thatcher. Thankfully we managed to contact the master thatcher who recently refurbished the cottage next door and he agreed to schedule us in with a lead time of six months. Thatching eventually started in February 2022 and was completed in approximately five weeks at a five-figure cost. Up to this point I had been dealing with my insurance broker about the future insurance of the house to come into effect once the builder had handed over the house to us. We intended to move into the house in July or August but were hit with several delays along the way like so many post-Covid construction projects. I filled in all of the thatch insurance forms for OBF Insurance Limited, OBF, which was the sole insurer in the market at the time. Unfortunately in May 2022, OBF pulled out of the market because its underwriters, Lloyds UK, no longer had an appetite for risk in thatched properties. I now had nowhere to turn for insurance.

I contacted brokers the length and breadth of Ireland, as well as in Scotland, England, Holland and Germany to no avail. None wanted to entertain it and none would even consider the aspects distinguishing a new thatched property from existing thatch properties such as a brand new roof, brand new wiring to modern standards, no spark emitting heat source, etc. Once the word thatch was

mentioned they just didn’t want to know.

The pressure ramped up as the build was coming closer to completion because I was unable to access the final drawdown for my self-build mortgage without insurance. The bank’s terms include a provision that their interest in the property must be insured at my cost. With nowhere else to turn, I contacted the newspapers and told my story. The publicity of the article led me to be in touch with several commercial brokers who managed to arrange quotes via a back-door approach using commercial insurance policies with a house added on. I received quotes ranging from €2,700 to €6,400 per annum. I will be going with the lowest quote I received because I have no other choice but even with this one I have to put significant additional measures in place such as a centrally-monitored, mains-wired and interlinked fire alarm system.

In summary, the process of seeking insurance for our thatched, three bedroom house has been a nightmare for my wife and me. If I had known about the insurance issues we would encounter prior to starting this project, we probably would have slated the roof. It certainly would have been cheaper to build and insure. We did receive a small grant from Fingal County Council and the Department with responsibility for heritage towards the cost of the roof, but this only covered approximately one quarter of the overall cost. The grants appear pointless if the house cannot even be used for its intended purpose. I firmly believe the Department with responsibility for heritage or a similar statutory body needs to step in urgently before every thatched roof in the country is removed and replaced with slate or metal, wiping out the traditional skills of thatching forever.

I have a few points before I allow other members to contribute. I agree with Mr. Darby's last statement that if something is not done urgently we will lose thatched buildings. I am from Tipperary and Holycross Abbey comes to mind because of the thatched buildings there. It would be a sin to lose thatched buildings from around the country. It is terrible to think that Ms McNelis's mother is afraid to have visitors because her house is not insured and it is stupid that in 2022, nothing is being done to address this. How did the companies that insured the house down through the years treat the family? Was there a problem or did they put many obstacles in the way?

Ms Katie McNelis

One has to jump through a lot of hoops to get thatch insurance. They have certain criteria. For example, no open fires are allowed so all of the open fires at home were removed. We followed whatever protocols we could to get insurance. A broker will search for the lowest price policy for the customer. The customer naturally wants to pay less. Therefore a customer does not necessarily build up loyalty to one insurance company. If certain companies leave the market, the broker moves on to find the next. The broker ran out of choices. There was nobody to turn to.

Did the Department with responsibility for heritage or anyone else try to come on board at any stage down through the years to help?

Ms Katie McNelis

No, I have submitted letters since 2015 and numerous thatching booklets have been issued but no insurance help.

No action.

Ms Katie McNelis

I submitted a report from 2005 and it was already apparent then that problems with insurance existed. We are nearly two decades on and still nothing is being done.

Is it Mr. Darby's experience that thatching heritage buildings are being pushed off the radar? What needs to be done to address the problem he and others in his position are facing?

Mr. Eoin Darby

No incentive is in place to keep thatched properties. The more people I talk to, the more I realise the insurance people are expected to pay for a typical house with the one remaining insurer is between €2,000 and €3,000 a year. That is multiples of the cost of insurance for a standard three bedroom semi-detached house in comparison. There were many thatched cottages around north county Dublin and they are being taken down now and removed. It is a shame as this is such a quintessential part of the Irish building landscape and they are all just being removed. I am probably the crazy person here. I put a brand new thatched roof on our existing cottage. I am going the other way, but I felt it was the right solution for our house and it looks fantastic beside the house next-door, but I am definitely an exception. Most people are going the other way. They are getting rid of them.

Ms Katie McNelis

The problem extends to the difficulty that even if my mother wanted to sell her home she could not. Her hands are tied. She cannot change the roof because she is obliged by law to maintain it due to a protection order. She cannot sell her home even if she wanted to, although she does not. She cannot use it as a business. She cannot do anything with her home.

It is crazy to be obliged by law to return the building to its listed state if something were to happen, as Ms McNelis said in her opening statement. Her mother could face two years in jail or a fine of up to €12.7 million if she fails to do so.

Ms Katie McNelis

That is legislation.

I will call Deputy Buckley first and then Deputy O'Donoghue.

I was listening to Ms McNelis regarding her mother being locked into the contract of owning her house and that she is locked into a contract so cannot sell it. I am thinking outside the box. As the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications will enforce the law on listed buildings, should it have the capability to instruct insurance companies to insure the buildings? An appeals mechanism for driving licences exists. I am not aware of anything in the Department to tackle this. Mr. Darby speaks about protecting heritage and paying extortionate money for house insurance at the behest of any insurer. It is absolutely ludicrous. Does a European insurance exist? What is done in other countries? Are limits set?

I take all of the witnesses' concerns on board. I am delighted that they have the opportunity to speak to the committee today because people might not be aware of the situation. I thank the witnesses for that.

Ms Katie McNelis

We are here today because nobody seems to know what to do. No help is available from anybody or apparent from anywhere I have turned and I have listed quite a few places. That is why I am here. Who can we turn to now?

Mr. Eoin Darby

With regard to the Deputy's reference to car insurance, car insurance companies have an obligation to provide a quote if a customer is refused by others. House insurance is technically optional because if a person owns the house it does not need to be insured, but I am starting to pay a 33-year mortgage and the bank will not give us the final drawdown until we have insurance in place to protect its interest. I have no choice. I absolutely have to have insurance. I want to have insurance anyway because it is our family home. The issues arise when no options are available to go anywhere else.

We have been raising this matter with the Minister since 2001 and it has gone back and forth. There will be a report, however, which the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, has indicated should be finished by the end of this month or the beginning of next month. I hope that will provide some answers and get things moving.

I have been a building contractor all my working life. I have been involved in historical buildings dating as far back as the 14th century. The Government should provide insurance for every thatched house and listed building in the country. If we legislate to protect buildings and make them protected structures, the onus should be on the Government to provide insurance for them. The buck stops with the Government, as it should. We have heard stories of people living in these houses taking out their fireplaces and being told they cannot do certain things in their house. Every couple of years, the thatch needs to be graded down and rethatched. The people making rules for our heritage are not protecting it because they are putting the onus back on the people who own these listed buildings. The Government make the rules and legislation on listing. If it is serious about this issue, it has a responsibility to protect these buildings and provide proper funding. Not only are historical buildings not being protected but the conservation office in Limerick has one conservation officer to do above ground and one to do below ground. That is what they think of our heritage and of conservation. They make the rules so hard that it puts the onus back on the person who owns the property.

These properties are part of our history and if they are being regulated, the onus is on the Government to give the funding needed to protect them and to protect our heritage and that of the families and generations that have been in them before us. I came down to say that in person because I feel so strongly about this. This Government and previous Governments have failed to protect our heritage and are putting the onus on the people who own these buildings. I thank the Chair for allowing me to contribute.

I thank both witnesses for their opening statements and for highlighting this issue. The power of this committee is that we can delve into these granular and important issues. As Deputy O'Donoghue said, this is our heritage. The witnesses may ask why a Deputy who represents Dún Laoghaire where there are no thatched roof cottages is speaking. Not too far from my constituency, in Stepaside and Enniskerry, there are thatched cottages but they are disappearing at a rate of knots.

After spending so much time and money restoring a thatched roof, for Mr. Darby to be encouraged or advised to go with a slate roof is not where we want to be. That is the easy solution. The experience of Ms McNelis's parents has been that because their thatched property is listed, they have been almost hemmed in to a useless property, if Ms McNelis will excuse the phrase. That is not how it should be. I went through development plans when I was a councillor and they are meant to be about affording protection to these properties so they are not destroyed. That should not shackle owners and prevent them from doing anything with their property either. We either respect private property rights or we do not.

I accept the point that there are not enough heritage officers. There are some who say that where there are heritage officers in place, they make the problem worse because they are not working hand in hand with owners. We need to get to a better position of respecting, protecting and encouraging thatched roofs. This is not only about the physical entity but also the thatching trade and ensuring we do not lose that skill. There is a lot to be done on this matter. The committee needs to correspond with the Department directly and I hope representatives of the Department will speak directly to us.

Are the witnesses aware of any actions that have come from the 2005 report? On the insurance side and as regards providing a remedy for properties, to my mind there has been nothing done in decades and we have lost more properties than we have been able to maintain. I do not have a question per se to the witnesses, primarily because their opening statements gave us the information and exposed the problem that lies ahead. I suggest that the committee correspond promptly with the Department and that members, both individually and collectively, raise the matter with the Minister in the Dáil.

Before today's meeting, I had a good discussion with a constituent who has a thatched property. He raised many of the issues we have discussed today. Unfortunately, the problem is the same no matter where in the country the property is and it is that insurance remains astronomical and unaffordable for many people. This is having an impact on the physical heritage of our landscape. I suggest we correspond with the Department and invite its representatives to appear before us to find out what it is proposing to do to ensure homeowners are encouraged to retain thatched roofs.

I agree that we should bring in the Minister or officials from the Department. As regards the report, on which there has not been any movement, did the owners feed into the new study that is supposed to come out at the end of this month?

Ms Katie McNelis

The thatch survey was sent out to all thatch owners in around ten counties by the middle of September, and it was following up to the rest of the counties. The deadline for the survey was pushed out to 30 September, so the report will be some time later on. This is a continual problem.

Were people only contacted in the middle of September regarding a report that is supposed to come out at the end of September?

Ms Katie McNelis

The survey was finalised after the holidays and we eventually got it in the post around 16 or 17 September. It had not been sent out in all counties by then. The Thatch Insurance Action Group had a meeting with some members of the steering committee in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage who said they would have to send out more surveys. The other survey was to fire chiefs or fire officers to rein in whatever information they could get on how many thatched properties had ever been subject to destruction by fire. It is to see where that lies, so that, eventually, we will get some insurance scheme but we do not know what is going on.

If the report was supposed to be out by the end of September-----

Ms Katie McNelis

Which is tomorrow.

-----and the owners were only contacted in the middle of the month, that shows a clear lack of respect for people caught in this situation. I see Mr. McDonnell has his hand up in Teams. What are the witnesses' views on the study? Are they confident that things may change?

Ms Katie McNelis

I am not, personally. We are still here after a 2005 report. My mother is done with it but I am here. It does not give any confidence.

Mr. Eoin Darby

I am relatively new to this whole thing, but from what I read of it, it has only got worse and is only getting worse. There is currently no house insurer in Ireland taking on new thatched property insurance or any new policy. A buyer in Dunmore East or Adare who wants to purchase a thatched property will not be able to buy it because they cannot get insurance for it.

Ms Katie McNelis

Unless they are a cash buyer.

Mr. Eoin Darby

Cash and assuming they are going to insure it.

Ms Katie McNelis

That is it. Yes.

Mr. Eoin Darby

If it is on a mortgage, it has to be insured, unless the person is a cash buyer. Exactly.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

I would like to come back on a couple of things committee members mentioned. This is fundamentally a problem with thatch insurance availability. It is a wider problem in the sense that it is an insurance problem. There are many sectors in the country that have problems accessing available and affordable insurance. In letters I have written to both the Department of Finance and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the problem is that neither Department recognises there is a problem with the insurance sector and that there needs to be intervention by the Government and by them, given they are the Departments that regulate the insurance companies. The Department of Finance and the Central Bank of Ireland regulate insurers, while the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has its action plan on insurance.

I welcome all the comments members of the committee made about requiring intervention because that is the position we have, that we need intervention. The thatched sector needs it urgently, but there are many other sectors of the economy that are struggling with insurance and need this intervention.

One business model we mentioned in lobbying submissions is a case in the UK where a public insurance company was set up to deal with just flood risk. For instance, where people are having problems obtaining flood cover with their insurer, their insurer can offer the flood risk and lay it off with this body called Flood Re. It is basically a reinsurance company. It is a model that can be worked on and used, and it operates within the Solvency II Directive, which is what governs the market rules for insurance in Ireland and Europe. It is a government intervention to solve an insurance problem where there is lack of availability and affordability.

Another question asked was what happens in other European markets in terms of insurance. Thatch insurance is available in other European markets. There are many thatched properties around Europe. It does seem to be peculiar to Ireland that we have a dearth of thatch cover available. Part of this may be due to the size of the market. We estimate there to be between 2,000 and 3,000 thatched properties in the Twenty-six Counties. That is quite a small market. Typically, thatched properties may have been insured as part of farms and so there are still policies there that are part of the farm policy, and because there is farm insurance available, the thatched property is insured as part of a farm. Thatched properties for holiday homes or one-off builds like Mr. Darby's are the ones that tend to struggle more with obtaining cover.

Mr. McDonnell's contribution has triggered some questions. Following the committee's suggestion that we invite heritage Ministers to attend, perhaps Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Fleming, would attend as well. There are 45 sectors and subsectors identified as struggling to get insurance, ranging from community groups to childcare to culture. I do a lot of work on nightlife and licensing laws, and the closure of cultural venues and infrastructure is not only due to licensing but to insurance as well. Many of these sectors will need intervention to survive.

From Mr. McDonnell's experience is the move by Government - fairs sometimes get intervention - very last-minute and quite piecemeal or is there something more formal in place when there is State intervention to support insurance? It might also be worthwhile for the committee to seek a submission from the Alliance for Insurance Reform. Is Mr. McDonnell involved with that group? They are just some questions off the top of my head.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

The Thatch Property Insurance Action Group has joined the Alliance for Insurance Reform. We are a very new member. We only joined in recent weeks, so we are still feeling our way a bit. We are much more comfortable talking about thatch insurance issues rather than the issues affecting the other sectors. The fundamental issue is that all these sectors are struggling with the same problem, which is a lack of available cover. There is a shortage of underwriters and segmentation within the insurance market, which makes it harder to get insurance and results in higher premiums being sought.

It is ironic that, historically, insurance was based on policyholders coming together and the smaller sectors are now expected to pay their way. It is a joke.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

Yes, the fundamental of insurance was that the many covered the unfortunate few. What is happening with segmentation is that the pools of insurance are getting smaller, which is resulting in higher risk and higher premiums. The only way to solve that problem is to make the pools bigger. In other words, for instance, it used to be that there would be entertainment insurance, and theatres, circuses, arts groups and festivals would all be insured under the one pool. Now what is happening is they are being divided up into separate pools. The pools are smaller and, as a consequence, insurance premiums are higher, and the number of underwriters offering cover in terms of generating competition that pool is also smaller. That effectively leads to a lack of availability and a lack of affordability through lack of competition.

I have one last question that I have not fully thought out. I look at the European flag behind the Chair and the committee and we talk about Ireland being such a small market. Are we not part of a much bigger market? For example, with thatched cottages, I am thinking about France-----

Mr. Eoin Darby

I approached some brokers in Holland.

The lady I spoke to over there said they do not insure properties in the UK. When I said that we are not in the UK and we are in the EU, she said that she meant the UK and Ireland. They will insure Germany, Holland and Brussels but, for whatever reason, we were lumped in with Brexit.

Mr. Darby was no longer a European citizen on that phone call.

I call Deputy Devlin.

I thank Mr. McDonnell for his contribution. I have several questions. Mr. McDonnell mentioned there are between 2,000 and 3,000 thatched cottages in the Republic. To go back to the 2005 report, and taking it from what the witnesses have said that there has been little or no action on that, the executive summary at action 5 stated that a centralised database should be established. I assume that has not been done and Mr. McDonnell might confirm if that is the case. Therefore, from 2005 to today, there has been no real way of assessing or quantifying how many thatched roofs we have already lost. To go back to the earlier point, not every thatched roof property is listed and, therefore, they are not listed there either. Mr. McDonnell might answer on that.

I have two further questions. Senator Warfield referred to farms getting insurance if there is a thatched property on a farm. I presume that is what Mr. Darby is talking about in his opening statement when he referred to commercial-type insurance.

Mr. Eoin Darby

That is correct.

Obviously, that is not an option for everybody and it does not give them the exact cover they require, but the premiums of such insurance cover, as Mr. Darby pointed out, at between €2,000 and €6,000 are astronomical. Mr. Darby might speak to that further. It is not an ideal situation for anybody.

Ms McNelis said that if insurance lapsed or people could not afford it, given those types of premiums, some people are unable to even sell the property. From the experience of her group, how extensive is that problem? If it is a property on a farm or on its own land, are many of the members of the thatched property group coming across this problem regularly? Those are my three questions to the witnesses.

Ms Katie McNelis

We are still quite a small group. Even in the whole country, thatch is quite small but within the thatched property owners group that we are trying to form and the thatched property action group that we have formed, there are a number of people who have tried to buy thatched properties but they cannot because they cannot pin down insurance cover. The flip side is that for every person trying to buy, there is somebody trying to sell, so it is a two-way street. One person we know of has had seven different people try to buy their house but they cannot do it because the buyers cannot get insurance.

Mr. Eoin Darby

On the commercial aspect of the quotes I received, commercial policies have quite different terms from the typical house policy. One of them in particular is that they had a minimum fee, a minimum charge, that they had to put into the policy just to justify doing it. That made it quite different from the standard house insurance, which is quite a competitive market in Ireland. That was one of the factors. Another factor was the extra things I had to do in the house for the insurers to entertain it. I mentioned smoke detectors. We had put in normal smoke detectors, which is a requirement of any new-build house. These were mains-wired but not communicating to each other, whereas the system I have to put in now to get this policy in place has an interlinked communications system connected back to the utility room, effectively, which is connected into the alarm system for the security of the house, which is centrally monitored. That has a monthly recurring charge that I will have to pay for the remainder of the entire mortgage and insurance policy. It is just another addition on top of the cost of the premium, not to mention the maintenance of the thatched roof going forward.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

I will try to deal with some of the questions. Regarding the 2,000 to 3,000 thatched properties, we believe there is a database of the addresses in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. When the Department was conducting its survey, it told us it was able to send out a printed hard-copy version of the survey to about 2,000 thatched properties around the country. That is one of the actions that has been taken, albeit it has never been confirmed formally to us.

We are in the process of trying to form a thatched property owners group. This is for a couple of reasons. One is so that we have a more coherent lobby voice but our idea is also that if we get enough people to join such a group, we might be able to form a thatched insurance group scheme. Using insurance group schemes has been a method in other sectors to try to solve the problem of availability and affordability, and it was used in the crèche sector and the outdoor activities sector. The difficulty with forming a group scheme is that it is hard to make it commercially viable, and the estimate we have is that we need at least 1,000 properties to be part of the group. That figure of 1,000 is based on an annual premium for that group scheme of about €1 million, which is the magic number, if we like, to make it commercially viable.

As part of collecting names and addresses to form our thatched property owners group, we have about 170 people signed up so far. We asked a few basic questions about their buildings and about two thirds of the respondents so far say their building is a listed building or a registered structure, and the other third say it is not, with those tending to be the newer properties like thatched holiday homes and so on. Some may just not be on the register because they are not known about from a heritage survey point of view. Hopefully, that covers most of the questions.

I call Deputy O’Donoghue.

Reference was made to fire alarms. A person was trying to insure their detached house recently and they would only be allowed to insure it if they were connected directly to the local fire station from the house. The system they were looking to connect to their house would have cost over €3,000 in order to have that direct connection. However, another part of the policy said that unless it was a commercial business, the house could not be connected to a fire station.

When we look at the regulations for any house up to today's standards, there have to be fire alarms, smoke detectors in the kitchen areas and so on. What thatched cottages have been put through is unbelievable. This goes back to my first point. It was said there are 2,000 thatched houses in Ireland but I would say there are fewer. I know many people who had thatched houses and they were trying to do work to them but they eventually said they were stopping and those houses have fallen in. I witnessed the roofs of two such houses fall in last year. The local authority came and told the owners they had to fix the house but they did not have the money to feed their own family and look after their own house. The local authority was asking them to put money into a house where the grant systems were not available because the local authority only had a small pool of money to travel a whole county.

Take Adare, for example. How much revenue does Adare bring in for the Government? Why do people come? It is because they see the line of thatched cottages as they drive into Adare. Unfortunately, a few years ago one of the thatched cottages burned down. There was a family living in it at the time. I was a member of the council then. A number of meetings were held about the thatched building and what would be taken in charge by someone else, and insurance was the big obstacle. It goes back to my first point. If the Government is serious about our heritage and about listing houses and buildings, such as those that are thatched, it has to provide the insurance for it. God forbid, but if any of us were struck by a car tomorrow and the person driving had no insurance, we would be covered because the Government has insurance in place. For something like our heritage, there is nothing. We want people to be able to live in these houses if they want to. There is a lovely thatched house up the road from where I was living in Dromin. The owner's family lived there and he built next door. When his parents died, the house was rented out. People are living in it now. It is fabulous to see a family with children in it. There are criteria around what they can and cannot do with it. We have some fantastic buildings in this country. The failure of the Government to protect them and to protect the people who own them is evident. We are down to 2,000 or less. The inaction means that we could have a lot less. Trying to find a person to thatch a house or to source the proper reed is difficult. The reed is being imported now. We are not using our own reed that we have here because fewer and fewer people are doing it. Looking at the witnesses, I am happy to see people of a young age taking on this work. Often, we look across the table and we see people who have been trying to protect the home that they grew up in for their whole lives, into their 70, 80s or 90s. They do this because their homes are their heritage and they are the culture of all of their families. It is great to see young people here today who are seeking to protect thatched buildings for the next generation. The Government needs to look at the issue, and look at it properly. It must ensure that our thatched houses are protected. Funding must be provided to protect the houses that people cannot afford to protect for the future. The houses should be brought back into use. They are saying we have a housing crisis. There are houses there that could be used to accommodate people if there was a bit of blue-sky thinking to get them back into production. We need to leave something for the next generation, so that they can live in our shoes and those of the generations before us. Everyone is on laptops and phones at the moment. What is the one thing that they crave? Look at the Americans, for example. When they come into this country, the one thing they want is to go back in time, to 100 years ago. They want to stay in old houses and live life as it was years ago, even if it is only for one week. That is what they crave. It is one thing to protect thatched cottages, but we can actually have something unique in this country, that we can offer to people who come here. We can use it to generate employment and tourism, and protect our heritage at the same time. I encourage the Minister to come in, and to look at funding to protect all of the thatched houses.

I know of a couple who were living in a protected house, onto which they built an extension after getting planning permission. However, the insurer would not insure the front part of the house because it had a timber ceiling that dated back many years. It would only insure the extension. The couple were starting out in life and had bought and extended the property. They were willing to keep the streetscape, put in the sash windows and make sure the front of the house looked at it did previously but the local authority was more worried about the timber ceiling inside the house that nobody else would see unless they called to the house. Perhaps 50 people, who were friends of the family, would have seen the ceiling each year. The local authority thought more about protecting the timber ceiling than helping the couple. The authority decided that the timber ceiling could be taken down, one timber at a time, and the ceiling could be fire-proofed and reassembled. The cost of these extra works, to a small town house in the streetscape owned by a young couple, was €8,000, just to make sure that the house could be insured. That is ludicrous.

Ms Katie McNelis

The Deputy talked about all of those measures. There is a bit of conflict between what insurance companies want property owners to do, and what thatchers recommend should be done. The two do not align at all. What the insurance companies want owners to do will nearly encourage a fire to start in the home, compared to what the thatchers recommend. That needs to be sorted out. I want to say that I am here to speak up for the people who cannot speak up because they could possibly be in breach of the terms of their mortgage for doing so. That is the reality. People are afraid to say anything, but they should not be.

I am delighted that the witnesses are here today and are being so vocal about the issues but the responsibility lies with us to ensure that we get a return for our heritage and for these people.

Mr. Eoin Darby

Just to add to the Deputy's point on the tourism factor, tourism is a massive income generator for the country. We should also mention the skilled guys doing the thatching. These guys spend ten years doing an apprenticeship to become a master thatcher. They are in very short supply and are dwindling in numbers. If we are going to start losing these properties, going from having only 2,000 now, to 1,900 next year, then 1,800 and so on, that skill and trade is just going to disappear. Will every house in the country just have a slate roof then? As I said, the quintessential Irish postcard depicts a thatched cottage. That will be gone.

I just want to add one final point. This year, last year and the year before, this House spent hundreds of thousands of euro on the commemorations of people who are historical icons for this country. For example, a significant amount of money was spent at the Béal na Bláth commemoration for Michael Collins, and rightly so, because of the heritage that is there, in terms of winning for our country. However, there is history that is actually here and now, that our Government is not looking at as part of the commemorations. These buildings across the country could have been safe houses. They have their own story and are part of the same history that we have just commemorated in different stages, yet we are not protecting them. We need to look at the properties that were there during that times and before then. We need to look at the families who lived in those houses, during the period we are commemorating, and who are not here today. They are equally as iconic. We are failing to protect them. If we want to put things on a par with one another, the houses and families who lived there are equally as important in the history of the State. They should be part of the commemorations of those living at that time. I believe we should invite the Minister in to discuss the matter. The Government should think long and hard about protecting these houses.

Ultimately, if people cannot mind them, the State will end up buying them because they will not be occupied or they will be lying idle. Suddenly, the call will be made again to protect our heritage. The State will ultimately end up owning the houses and they will not be occupied as living dwellings.

I want to make one final point. I will leave at this. Laws have been put in place by the Government to penalise people who cannot protect these buildings, when it should be the other way round. The Government should be encouraging people and providing funding to help to protect them.

The frightening thing, as Mr. Darby said, is that if something is not done within the next few years, the only place we will see a thatched cottage is on a postcard. That image has been reproduced millions of times over the years in every corner of the world. It is frightening to think about it. Adare was mentioned earlier. I said before I came into the meeting that Holycross village is in my area, which has a knock-on effect for tourism in Cashel and Thurles. It is crazy that-----

Mr. Eoin Darby

There are a lot of thatched cottages around the country that are actually covered over. They were covered in tin at some point. They did not want to take them down, but they wanted to protect them from further rot or whatever.

Two years ago, just when I was going through the planning permission process, I was driving through a town in north county Dublin and I saw a digger going straight through one of these roofs, with the dust, the hay and straw coming off it. I am going through all of these hoops to try to get a new thatched roof put on and there was a developer just putting a digger bucket straight through a roof that has probably been there 150 years.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

I will follow up on the point about insurance conditions and that thatching standards. In my case, I bought my thatched property just over eight years ago. During the buying process I struggled to obtain insurance. Eventually, the person from whom I was buying the property suggested I go to their insurer, which I did. The insurer offered to cover me but it had some conditions. It was already insuring this property but it insisted that a particular chimney stainless steel flue was installed in the chimney with a spark arrester fitted to the top. If I did not install this flue then there was no way it would provide cover. The flue was installed and in a subsequent conversation with my thatcher, he said that if I was to light a fire with that flue in place it would cause the thatch to burn. Those flues had been banned in other jurisdictions. He knew, for instance, that they had been banned in the UK. I was left in a position where if I wanted to have insurance I had to keep the flue but I wanted to keep the flue I could not light a fire.

Ms Katie McNelis

It sounds funny but it is not.

It sounds funny but it is a crazy system. I have some questions for Ms McNelis and Mr. Darby with regard to the banks they were dealing with. Did you get any advice or did they give any specific advice? Did they try to do any deals with insurance companies for you?

Mr. Eoin Darby

My mortgage offer was based on the fact that I would have insurance in place. The issue did come up because the bank, through my mortgage broker, reviewed the drawings. It is blatantly obvious that there is a thatched roof on the front of the property. Not only that, the rest of the property is a flat roof, which does not do any favours with regard to insurance either. It is a double whammy. The mortgage offer specifically stated that the insurance policy I received was not to have any exclusions for thatch. It was an actual requirement of the bank that I had to have insurance that covered the thatched element of the property. They did not give me any advice or direction on how to obtain that. It was just that I was not getting the final drawdown for the mortgage without this. It was up to me.

Ms Katie McNelis

Ours is a third generation house so we do not have a mortgage as such, thankfully. Equally, we do not have insurance. My mother is not getting any younger. She does not need this headache. At this stage in her life she should not have to endure this anymore.

Just to get our heads around it, I agree with Deputy O'Donoghue. There is such a small number of such properties, maybe 2,000 or 3,000. How many of those are in the action group? Have the witnesses any figures on that? Even outside of that, a certain amount of those 2,000 or 3,000 properties are insured under farm policies, as Mr. McDonnell said earlier. Out of the 2,000 or 3,000 properties how many would be caught in the same situation as the action group? How many of properties are in the action group?

Ms Katie McNelis

We have 170 signed up.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

Yes. It is 170 at the moment.

Ms Katie McNelis

It is hard to gauge from that.

Is there any idea of how many of the 2,000 to 3,000 properties are at least getting insurance under farm policies?

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

When the survey results come back to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage we should be able to get answers to those questions. These are the types of questions that have been posed in the survey. I would say to the committee to watch this space. Hopefully the Department will be able to publish some of those survey results. We could speed up our formation of a thatch owners' group if we had access to the list of addresses of thatched properties that the Department has. We have asked but so far they have declined to share that list with us.

As Deputy O'Donoghue said, if legislation and the Government are telling the group that a property is listed then they should have a responsibility to make sure that those buildings are kept up. We are talking about very small numbers. This is the crazy thing about it. In a couple of years' time if we do not look after these buildings we will lose them. Once something is gone it is gone forever and we will not see it again. Mr. Darby has said that we will only see it on a postcard. It is a very sad reflection on where we are going that we cannot see how important the likes of thatched buildings are to our economy and to families such as the witnesses' own children, that have been there for generations. To think that we could lose this over some stupid silly rules, or through somebody in the Department not looking outside of the box and being willing to do something.

Unless members have any other issues to raise, I will ask Ms McNelis and Mr. Darby to make closing statements if they wish.

Outside of what has already been proposed, is there anything else the group would have us ask when the committee brings the Ministers of State, Deputies Noonan and Fleming, in before the committee to answer questions, to see what pressure we can put on them to speed stuff up? And outside of that, is there anything the witnesses feel that we as a committee can do to try to put pressure on the Ministers of State?

Ms Katie McNelis

From my point of view, time is ticking. It has been ticking for more than 20 years or longer. That is where I need to see something happen. It is my final wish that something would happen out of this today, and not in 20 years' time.

Mr. Eoin Darby

Having a background in conservation and from working on projects of similar ages and similar refurbishments, the joined-up thinking is just not there. The policies of the various Departments and county councils on conservation have no thought around the actual use of the building by the homeowners. One can go down a rabbit hole of having the absolutely best practice for conserving old slide and sash windows, lime render works and thatched roofs, but what is the point in it all if people cannot actually live there? This is to be my family home for the next 35 years for my family. What is the point if we cannot actually use the building or if we are completely crucified with insurance, so we cannot actually live in it?

Would Mr. McDonnell also wish to say a final word?

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

Yes. I echo those comments. These thatched properties are not museums. We must have cost structures that are within norms to allow people to live in them. It is supposed to be part of the living tradition and they have to evolve and adapt while being maintained as thatched structures.

It is a very good idea to get the two Ministers of State in a room at the same time. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage believes that this is an insurance problem, which means that it wants to keep the heritage aspect but views it is an insurance problem. The Minister of State with responsibility for insurance believes that it is a thatch problem and the issue should be solved by the Department with responsibility for heritage. In reality it is both sides. Both Departments need to act.

I can assure Mr. McDonnell, and I can be nearly certain about this, that we will not have two Ministers of State before us at the same time. They may come at separate times. We will request and we will ask, but I cannot see the two of them coming in together. Deputy O'Donoghue is indicating.

I will not delay but wish to make a final point. Ms McNelis has said that she has been trying to do this for the past 20 or more years. Now there is this petition to the committee where the Chairman is from Tipperary, Deputy Buckley is from Cork and I am from Limerick. Maybe the difference now is that we actually know what we are talking about and we live in the areas where these thatched cottages are. We experience it and are not afraid to talk up to Departments that do not understand what they are regulating for.

I have great confidence in the committee in which we are involved and in its Chairman. We all help each other out and we have vast experience in different areas. I believe we will arrive at a position where we will do our best to force the hand of people who do not understand how important the thatched cottages are.

I thank Ms McNelis, Mr. Darby and Mr. McDonnell for appearing in front of us. It was a very good conversation. It is our responsibility now as a committee to get out there how important this is. As Deputy O’Donoghue has said, we must ensure that it does not drag on for another 20 years and that we get movement on a change of legislation or some form of help for people such as our witnesses. Again, I thank them for attending today and wish them the best of luck. We will be in touch.

Mr. Eoin Darby

I thank the Chairman very much.

Mr. Ciaran McDonnell

I thank the Chairman.

We will suspend the meeting briefly to allow the witnesses to leave.

Sitting suspended at 3.01 p.m. and resumed at 3.02 p.m.

We have four petitions for consideration today.

Petition No. 21 of 2021 is "Taking in charge" from Mr. Terence Coskeran. This petition relates to the building of five houses at Rocksprings, Kilross, County Tipperary. The committee recommends that the reply for Mr. Coskeran be forwarded to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and to Tipperary County Council for comment within 14 days. Representatives from Tipperary County Council are to be invited to a meeting of this committee to discuss the petition should the autumn work programme allow. Do members have any views on this recommendation? Is it agreed?

Petition No. 38 of 2022 is "Ban disposable vapes" from Mr. Rory Maguire. This petition relates to concerns that disposal vapes which currently cannot be properly recycled are littering the environment. The committee recommends that the correspondence from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications be forwarded to the petitioner for comment and reply within 14 days. Is that agreed?

Petition No. 40 of 2022 is "Stop means testing the carer’s allowance" from Ms Denise Ryan. The petitioner requests that the Government stops means-testing the carer’s allowance. The committee recommends that the correspondence from Mr. John McKeon, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection, be forwarded to the petitioner for comment and reply within 14 days. Is that agreed?

It is agreed. It was a fairly substantial response.

Yes, a great deal of work went into it.

Petition No. 47 of 2022 is "Add hospitality staff to the general employment permit list now to save Irish hospitality” from Mr. Paddy Lynn. This petition seeks to extend the net to non-European Economic Area countries when trying to source hospitality staff. The committee recommends that the correspondence from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment be forwarded to the petitioner for comment within 14 days. Is that agreed?

That concludes our consideration of public petitions this afternoon. I invite the public to submit petitions via our online portal which is available at petitions.oireachtas.ie. A petition may be addressed to the Houses of the Oireachtas on a matter of general public concern or interest or an issue of public policy. Is there any other business which members would like to raise?

This committee will have a private meeting on Wednesday, 5 October. At our next public meeting on Thursday, 6 October, we will hear from the European Ombudsman, Ms Emily O’Reilly. I thank our clerk, Ms Maggie Semple, and all of our staff for the amount of work that goes into this committee. There is a massive level of correspondence with all the petitioners and the different Departments.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.06 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 6 October 2022.
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