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Committee on Public Petitions debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2022

Public Petition on Housing and Homelessness in County Kildare: Kildare County Council

The next item on our agenda is an engagement with Mr. David Creighton, senior architect, and Mr. Thomas Kelleher, senior executive quantity surveyor, from Kildare County Council in relation to Mr. Eamon Broughan's petition, No. 2 of 2022, entitled "Homelessness is a cancer, blocked up houses are not the cure".

Before we begin I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or of those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish Mr. Creighton's opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed?

Agreed. I apologise but I must leave the meeting now because a vote has been called in the Seanad.

That is fine. Thank you, Senator. On behalf of the committee I extend a warm welcome to Mr. Creighton and Mr. Kelleher. I suggest that Mr. Creighton's opening statement should not exceed ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members, with each member allocated approximately ten minutes for same. Members may contribute a second time if they wish. I invite Mr. Creighton to make his opening statement.

Mr. David Creighton

I thank the Chairman and members. I am a senior architect in Kildare County Council and have been in the housing department since 2014.

By way of background information, St. Patrick’s Park is a local authority estate constructed in a number of phases from the late 1970s. Originally remote from the centre of Rathangan, the town has now developed out to and beyond St. Patrick’s Park. Kildare County Council has also developed social housing on lands in its ownership at Beechgrove, closer to the town centre, and it owns land zoned for housing between both St. Patrick’s Park and Beechgrove. In this regard, I refer members to the Rathangan small town land use zoning map 2023-2029, which is document No. 1 of the supporting information we have provided to the committee.

There are currently no proposals to develop the existing adjoining lands in Kildare County Council’s ownership zoned for housing between St. Patrick’s Park and Beechgrove. With reference to development of adjoining private lands, a search of planning applications in the vicinity identifies the following: planning application ref. 06-2517, by Dundian Limited, for 272 residential units, crèche and retail units. This application does not make reference to access through St. Patrick’s Park or lands in Kildare County Council ownership. This application does not appear to have progressed and may have been superseded by application ref. 06-2667, also by Dundian Limited, for 250 residential units, crèche and retail units.

The application does not make reference to access through St. Patrick’s Park or lands in Kildare County Council ownership. A site location map and site plan are included with the supporting information which shows the location of the proposed development and the proposed site layout. The committee can refer to documents Nos. 2 and 3 of the supporting information in that regard. The proposed site layout does not indicate any connection to St. Patrick's Park or to the adjacent lands in Kildare County Council’s ownership. The application was granted.

Planning application ref. 14-1036 was an extension application to extend the duration of application ref. 06-2667. This extension application was refused. The supporting information includes land use zoning maps for Rathangan between 2002 and 2023 and the committee can refer to document No. 4 of the supporting documentation in that regard. It can be seen from the 2017-2023 land use zoning map for Rathangan that the lands included in the site referred to in planning application ref. 06-2667 is no longer zoned for residential purposes. This is also the case for the land use zoning map included in the draft county development plan 2023-2029. The draft county development plan is up for approval. There is reference to this point in the petition as follows:

It then came to my attention that KCC had given full planning permission to a private developer for 300 houses in our area and he had no proper access and I thought KCC was planning to give access through our estate. I challenged KCC on this and it became public then KCC put a press release on Kildare FM local radio stating they had withdrawn permission from the developer and would not be giving any further planning permission that land was sold later.

This statement does not appear to be substantiated by the planning application information set out and further information in relation to this claim should be provided. Kildare County Council would not have the power to withdraw a planning permission once granted and from the information available in connection with planning application ref. 06-2667, it appears as if this planning permission expired and the applicant was not successful in having the permission extended.

The completed estate at St. Patrick’s Park suffers from poor overall estate design, a lack of passive surveillance, inadequate public open space and insecure back lane access. One of the key drivers for the current proposals for the estate is the provision of good-quality, public open space which is well overlooked. We anticipate that the provision of a well-designed public open space will serve as a popular and well-used recreation and meeting space for all residents of the estate. This will foster a sense of community, cohesion and an awareness of place and inclusion.

In respect of the background to the current proposals, in July 2011, Kildare County Council received confirmation of approval in principle and a provisional budget for a remedial works scheme in St. Patrick’s Park, Rathangan. This approval followed a submission by Kildare County Council on foot of a call from the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for applications from local authorities under the remedial works scheme. St. Patrick’s Park was selected by Kildare County Council as a suitable estate due to the poor design of the estate, the lack of good-quality public open space and the overall condition of the estate at the time. Photographs are attached which show the condition of parts of the estate from 2010. Those are referred to as documents Nos. 5 and 6 in the supporting information. The photographs show the evidence of antisocial behaviour that existed at the time.

The approval received in July 2011 acknowledged the intention to purchase existing private dwellings within the estate should they become available to purchase. A number of private owners had expressed an interest in selling their dwellings and Kildare County Council acquired these dwellings where there was an intention to incorporate those dwellings into the remedial works scheme. No private owners were coerced into selling their properties. There are still a significant number of private owners within the estate. All private dwellings purchased by Kildare County Council were purchased on the basis of the open market valuation at the time of purchase.

Initial proposals to remediate the estate included the demolition of a significant number of dwellings, almost the entire southern section of the estate, and the building of a new perimeter block of housing to the south overlooking a new public open space. Various design options were discussed with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Design proposals have changed over time to reflect budget constraints and a desire to reduce the number of existing dwellings to be demolished while retaining the objective of addressing the poor design of the estate. The proposals for the development of the estate are included in the supporting information in the form of a presentation given to the elected members of the Kildare-Newbridge municipal district, which is document No. 7 in the supporting information. There is no current proposal to provide road access through St. Patrick's Park to the adjoining lands in Kildare County Council’s ownership. A single controlled gated access point is proposed to address the ongoing removal of existing fencing and uncontrolled access to the adjoining lands from the back lane which is resulting in antisocial behaviour and environmental issues.

Since receiving approval in principle for the remedial works scheme in 2011, Kildare County Council has carried out a number of improvement works to the estate. These include the demolition of five vacant and damaged dwellings that had suffered significantly from antisocial behaviour. Photographs have been provided as document Nos. 5 and 6 in the supporting information to verify this. The impact of antisocial behaviour in the estate at the time was a contributing factor to St. Patrick’s Park being selected for inclusion in the remedial works scheme. The inclusion of St. Patrick's Park in the remedial works scheme followed a site visit from an inspector from the Department at the time.

The council has also taken on substantial surface water remedial works to address localised flooding in the estate. It has also engaged in refurbishment of, and energy upgrade works to, 34 occupied and vacant units in the upper part of the estate. This has been referred to as phase 1 of the remedial works scheme and was completed in late 2019. The council has also installed new perimeter fencing. These works have significantly improved the overall appearance of the estate compared with 2010, prior to receiving approval under the remedial works scheme.

A Part 8 application was launched on 4 November 2022 for phases 2 and 3 of the remedial works scheme. Existing and proposed site plans for the proposed Part 8 development are included with the supporting information in documents Nos. 8 and 9. The proposed development includes the demolition of 15 units, 12 of which are in the centre of the estate; the construction of seven new units at key locations within the estate; the refurbishment of, and energy efficiency upgrade works for, 17 vacant units; refurbishment of, and energy efficiency upgrade works for, eight occupied units; and the provision of landscaped and overlooked public open space.

Public workshop meetings were held with local residents in Rathangan library in March 2020, just prior to the Covid-19 lockdown, to present those proposals and a number of amendments have been made to reflect comments that were received at that time. A briefing on the updated proposed Part 8 was given to the elected members of the Kildare-Newbridge municipal district on 21 September 2022. Following that briefing, an information leaflet was distributed to residents in the estate. Also included was an invitation to attend public workshop meetings in Rathangan library on 12 October 2022. A number of residents attended those meetings and feedback on the proposed development was positive. The petitioner was unable to attend so a private meeting was subsequently arranged for the petitioner and another individual in Kildare County Council offices. The one and a half hour meeting held with the petitioner is one of four private meetings held with a small group of local residents from St. Patrick’s Park, including the petitioner, over recent years. Three meetings were held in Kildare County Council offices in Naas and a further meeting was held on site in St. Patrick's Park. One-to-one meetings were held with residents of St. Patrick's Park in Kildare County Council offices at the outset of the scheme. A public meeting was held at Rathangan Community Centre at the early stages of the development. In addition to these meetings, there has been a number of leaflet drops updating residents on the proposed development of St. Patrick’s Park.

Nine supporting documents were included in my submission to the committee.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee and thank them for the information that was provided, which is a massive help. Their engagement has been exemplary. They have had many public and private meetings. I understand there were four meetings with the petitioner. I have seen how the estate was and where it is going now. I understand the situation was complicated when the developer bought the land.

We understand that there is a housing shortage at the moment and that there are constraints and restrictions. That said, the final proposals and the amount of engagement that the council had with the public was fabulous. I urge the council to keep in touch with everybody but especially with the Minister. The Government is saying that money is available to build housing so I urge the council to put its hand out any time it wants to build homes.

I understand the petitioner's concerns. Sometimes councils can be slow but having read the documentation supplied and having heard Mr. Creighton's opening statement, it is clear that the amount of engagement the council had with the public on this was fabulous. It is the only way to go. We have similar issues regarding a park in my area of Midleton and I am due to meet representatives of Cork County Council on Monday to discuss issues regarding opening up old entrances. Mr. Creighton spoke about the estate having only one entrance and about high levels of antisocial behaviour taking place in lanes.

I would be saying to Kildare County Council, in the context of the Rathangan area, that this is a good news story. The council should carry on with the work it is doing and continue to engage with the people. I understand people's frustration because things slowed down but the public engagement on this and the progress that Kildare County Council has made, as evidenced from the original photographs, makes it a good news story.

I am inclined to agree with Deputy Buckley. This looks to be a very well laid out site. Problems arose when the council moved in first. I live in a council estate and I know what happens when there is no communication between the council and residents. However, as Deputy Buckley has said, there seems to have been no end of communication going on here.

What was the reasoning behind demolishing the houses in the first place? What was planned then and why did it take so long? Why, in the context of a housing crisis, were houses boarded up for so long?

Mr. David Creighton

The demolition of the units referred to earlier was due to the fact that they were, in many cases, substantially damaged, as can be seen from the photographs. A lot of them were single-storey units and they were suffering quite a lot of anti-social behaviour at the time. Part of the issue was down to the overall design of the estate. Many were end units with blank corners and from an urban design perspective, they would naturally be vulnerable. There were three or four single-storey units demolished and two two-storey units. The two-storey units were in the central part of the estate where we are proposing to demolish the majority of the buildings to provide the public open space that is required in the centre of the estate. That is the background to the demolition work that has been carried out so far.

In terms of the period of time that units remained boarded up, we suffered from a high turnover of staff. There have been five different project managers on that project since its inception. I was not involved at the very early stages and only took over in 2014. The project has suffered because of a lack of continuity in the project team.

Phase 1 involved 34 units, some of which would have been vacant, but that did progress and was completed in 2019. That significantly uplifted the estate. The rest of the units remain vacant because it would be difficult to reoccupy them and then remove tenants from them when they are either demolished or subject to significant upgrade works. When they are vacant it is relatively easy to go in, strip them out and get back to bare walls in order to do the work necessary to get them up to the standard we need to achieve, which is a building energy rating, BER, of B2 or above. We are talking about generating what are almost new buildings in terms of their energy performance. There is a balance between having units blocked up for a long period of time and having those units available when we need to either demolish them or have access to them for significant upgrade works.

The petitioner claimed that in 2007 houses were being demolished in order to gain access to the adjoining field. Is Mr. Creighton saying that was not the reason for their demolition?

Mr. David Creighton

It certainly would not be the reason under the remedial works scheme. I just cannot comment going back that far-----

The remedial works came after that. The petitioner says in 2007 the reason that was given to the residents for the demolition was to gain access to the adjoining field in order to build more houses, and to provide a roadway through. Can Mr. Creighton comment on that or was that before his time?

Mr. David Creighton

I cannot comment but what I would say is that it would seem to make sense, in that if there were adjacent lands and we were developing a new estate today, we would make provision to connect to such lands to facilitate their phased development. St. Patrick's Park, with the layout that existed in 2007, would not have envisaged connection through to the adjacent lands so it would have required significant demolition works to facilitate that connection. The remedial works scheme does not envisage that. What it does envisage is just a controlled, gated access and that access would not be vehicular. It would not be wide enough. We would need in the order of seven metres of total width to provide vehicular access to adjacent lands and that is not what is proposed. It is really a gap between two housing blocks, directly accessed off the public open space so that it is properly overlooked. Currently the uncontrolled access from lanes is off the back lanes and is not properly overlooked or supervised and is really supporting antisocial behaviour. There is currently no way of properly controlling what can happen in those back lanes. It is not envisaged and at this stage we do not have any plans to develop those vacant lands. We have a large proposed development within St. Patrick's Park and we have additional lands within Beechgrove. We have just completed a phase of development there and there are additional serviced lands within Beechgrove which, if we were to look at providing additional units in future housing programmes within Rathangan, is where we would look to first.

Are all of the 34 units that were refurbished occupied now?

Mr. David Creighton

They are all fully occupied.

How many units had been vacant since 2007 and have they all be occupied now? Are any of the original houses still boarded up?

Mr. David Creighton

There would have been vacant units in phase 1, which is the 34 units to which the Chairman referred. I do not have the exact numbers to hand but any of the vacant units within phase 1 are now occupied. Units in phases 2 and 3 that would have been vacant at that time, in 2007 and 2008, or certainly by 2011 when we applied for the remedial works scheme, would have remained unoccupied because the intention was to include them within the remedial works scheme.

Are they still vacant?

Mr. David Creighton

They are still vacant, yes.

Does Mr. Creighton have any kind of timeline for when they will be occupied?

Mr. David Creighton

As I said, we have just launched the Part 8 planning application for that phase of works. That application will probably come before the members of Kildare-Newbridge municipal district around March. Once we get a successful outcome from that, the intention would be to go out to tender by the end of 2023. As we are dealing with both occupied and vacant units as well as with the need to demolish a certain number of units within the centre of the scheme, the remedial works scheme is planned over five different mini-phases within the contract. In order to decant from existing units, we need to refurbish vacant units and in order to decant from units that are to be demolished, we need to refurbish existing units.

This happens over roughly five phases. We reckon it will take approximately 18 months in total. I hope we will be on site at the back end of next year or in early 2024 followed by a construction period of roughly 18 months. That will result in a phased completion. The whole thing will not run out for 18 months.

As we said at the start, and in agreement with Deputy Buckley, I encourage all councils to do as much communicating with the local community as possible, as Kildare County Council seems to have done. As I have said, I lived in a council housing estate myself and I know that, when houses become vacant, there is a mad panic and everyone has a theory as to why they are vacant. Communicating with the residents of an estate takes away a lot of that fear.

I am just going through the three phases. Mr. Creighton has set out the timelines. It is good for the council to air these matters today because people do not understand all of the links in the chain. As I have said, it is not too often that everything is laid out for the Committee on Public Petitions, not only in black and white, but in colour, so that it can be understood. This is an example of how councils work with the public and this is an opportunity for the council to tell the committee this is done over five stages, that it will take a given number of years, that it is going as fast as it can and that there are constraints. Looking at where the council is now in comparison with where it has come from gives me hope. On my own behalf at least, I thank Mr. Creighton very much for the information today. I wish Kildare County Council the best of luck. I hope Mr. Creighton will not forget where we are because we can push the Government for funding. I hope the people of Rathangan in Kildare will get plenty of enjoyment out of this estate and others and out of the planned park.

No one else is indicating. Does Mr. Creighton wish to make a closing statement?

Mr. David Creighton

No. I will just express my gratitude for the Deputy's comments of support and acknowledge the great support we get from our elected members in the Kildare-Newbridge municipal district. They have been very supportive of the project to date. I know there is frustration in respect of the period of time that has passed. I also acknowledge the support we get from our Department advisers who will be behind the scheme.

I thank Mr. Creighton and Mr. Kelleher for coming to present to us today. The session has been very beneficial and, as has been said, this is an example of how councils should approach works going on in an area. Some councils have a lot to learn. I thank the witnesses again and wish them both a happy Christmas.

Mr. David Creighton

I wish the Cathaoirleach and members many happy returns.

We will suspend the meeting for two minutes to let the witnesses leave.

Sitting suspended at 2.03 p.m. and resumed at 2.04 p.m.
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