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Committee on Public Petitions debate -
Thursday, 9 Feb 2023

Public Petition on St. Brigid’s Hospital, Carrick-on-Suir (Resumed): Health Service Executive

Our next business is our engagement with officials from the HSE concerning Councillor David Dunne's Petition No. 48 of 2021, Save St. Brigid’s Hospital. I welcome members of the Save St. Brigid’s Action Group in the Public Gallery.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references to other persons witnesses may make in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish the opening statement on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Ms Kate Killeen White, chief officer, and Ms Helen McDaid, head of services for older persons, South East Community Healthcare; Mr. Ciarán Ruane, estates manager, HSE capital and estates department; and Ms Anne Walsh, director of nursing, St. Theresa's District Hospital, Clogheen, County Tipperary. Ms Killeen White will make the statement. I suggest she should make the statement for ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members, each of whom will have approximately ten minutes. This will allow members to contribute again in the second round. I invite Ms Killeen White to make her opening statement.

Ms Kate Killeen White

Good afternoon Chairperson and members of the committee. I thank them for the invitation to meet with the committee to discuss St. Brigid’s district hospital in Carrick-on Suir, County Tipperary. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Helen McDaid, head of services for older persons, South East Community Healthcare; Ms Anne Walsh, director of nursing, St. Theresa's District Hospital, Clogheen, County Tipperary; and Mr. Ciarán Ruane, estates manager, HSE capital and estates department. I take this opportunity to thank committee members for the invitation to address the committee and discuss Petition No. 48 of 2021, Save St. Brigid’s Hospital.

I acknowledge the testimony given to the committee by the delegation representing the local community in Carrick-on-Suir when it discussed St. Brigid’s district hospital at the meeting held on 19 January 2023. In addition, I commend everyone who worked at St. Brigid’s Hospital over the years on their dedication, commitment and excellent care. I also thank the local community in Carrick-on-Suir for their support for St. Brigid’s down through the years. I understand that St Brigid’s Hospital was much valued by the local community in Carrick-on-Suir and surrounding environs. Please be assured that we are continuing to work hard to ensure the population has access to high-quality community services. I hope the details we share today will explain the reasons for the difficult but necessary decision to repurpose St. Brigid’s and discontinue the provision of short-stay inpatient services on-site.

St. Brigid’s Hospital was a short-stay unit with 16 beds, including three palliative, two respite and 11 convalescent beds. There were no long-stay residential beds at the hospital. The design and layout of the hospital was largely reflective of the time period in which it was built. The current premises was first designated in 1817. Overtime, it became a district hospital providing general medical, dental and maternity care. The service, thereafter, changed to provide short-stay services. The older and main part of the hospital comprised of three floors, with resident bedrooms on the ground and first floor. There were three single en suite palliative care rooms on the ground floor.

In addition, there was one twin bedroom and one single bedroom on the first floor. There were two five-bedded wards on the first floor. Those wards were utilised for convalescence and respite care services. Those rooms, in particular, represented the most challenging shortcomings noted in the HIQA report.

As part of the south-east response to the Covid-19 public health emergency, St. Brigid's was designated as a Covid-19 step-down facility to support flow from the acute hospitals. As demand for Covid-19 step-down beds was not required to the level initially predicted, south-east community healthcare utilised the staffing resource from St. Brigid's to meet demands in community healthcare services, including assigning staff to testing centres and long-stay residential units at the time.

As for the rationale for discontinuation of short-stay inpatient services, in summary, St. Brigid's was not considered suitable to support the level of refurbishment and adaptations required to resume short-stay inpatient services in line with Safer Better Healthcare guidelines and infection prevention and control requirements. Prior to the Covid-19 pandemic, the design and layout of some parts of the premises was unsuitable. The current building simply did not facilitate the environment which a modern service should provide from an infection prevention and control perspective, given the layout of the premises and the inadequate space and facilities available.

Previous HIQA inspections highlighted significant non-compliances pertaining to the physical infrastructure of the premises inclusive of the inadequate space available in the two five-bedded wards to provide safe and effective care to patients. The limited space posed a restriction on movement for staff delivering care at the bedside. Even with the use of bed screens provided, some patients with reduced capacity or mobility and-or high care needs could not undertake personal activities in private. There was a lack of storage space in the two five-bedded wards and the one twin-bedded bedroom. HIQA reports indicated that there was only 76 cm of space between the beds in the two five-bedded wards, which was deemed not acceptable prior to the Covid-19 pandemic. One of the five-bedded wards did not have showering facilities, and occupants were required to go downstairs, via the stairwell or lift, to access showering facilities.

Prior to the Covid-19 pandemic, it was accepted that substantial shortcomings were identified in the premises, which needed to be addressed to operate the service in line with SI 415/ of 2013 - the Health Act 2007 (Care and Welfare of Residents in Designated Centre for Older People) Regulations 2013; SI 293 of 2016 - the Health Act 2007 (Care and Welfare of Residents in Designated Centres for Older People) (Amendment) Regulations 2016, commencing 1 January 2022; the national standards for Safer Better Healthcare; resumption of services in a Covid-19 environment, with a specific focus on infection prevention and control; fire regulations; and HIQA standards.

In 2018, consideration had been given by hospital management, in conjunction with HSE estates and technical services, to add an extension to St. Brigid's Hospital, with a view to addressing the environmental challenges. However, the building itself and the surrounding grounds and parking areas did not, and do not, allow for an extension of sufficient size, and it was opined that it would not be possible to make the existing building compliant. An opinion was provided that the adjacent site was not suitable for construction. In addition, it was noted that the area is on a floodplain, which would be concerning, and to a lesser extent the area includes a right of way that restricts options. It was also opined that there was insufficient space to the front of the hospital, which estates advised meant there was no realistic option of extending the hospital in order to meet the guidelines.

The works required included a large extension, primarily to the rear of the hospital, with a new entrance required at the front. Aside from the design constraints associated with modifying and extending this old building, two major challenges presented: first, the onerous planning requirements, particularly in respect of flood prevention as regards sustainable urban drainage systems; second, the limited size of the site. It was obvious that there was little or no space outside the building to accommodate the extension and, as such, additional land would be required, which in this area was not recommended. In addition, the building had a number of fire safety issues, particularly in respect of compartmentation and horizontal and vertical evacuation. The staff were aware of these issues and were conscientious in ensuring that the risks were minimised. However, shortcomings were identified in a HSE estates fire inspection in November 2019 that would have required significant alterations. In 2020, at the time the HSE was attempting to resume services in a Covid environment, a risk assessment was completed advising of risk of harm to clients and staff due to concerns about healthcare-associated infections.

In 2020, HSE estates and technical services opined that upgrade works were not viable. The HSE was left with no choice but to discontinue short-stay inpatient services at St. Brigid's Hospital, having considered its future appropriateness to provide inpatient services and the overall planning and provision of older persons' services across the south Tipperary catchment area. The services for older people health management team of the community healthcare organisation, CHO, is committed to reviewing continuously our services, including in south Tipperary, as part of the overall south-east community healthcare area and in line with population health planning and Sláintecare principles. We are committed to the ongoing development of modern services across the region. There is an ongoing building programme for our older persons' services, with current builds in Clonmel and Thomastown, County Kilkenny. Under the national enhanced community care programme, there has been a fundamental shift in the planning and delivery of healthcare services, moving away from hospital-based activity to community-based services for people in their own homes.

The population of south Tipperary is served by both public and private nursing home beds. There are currently 147 HSE public beds across four units and 522 private nursing home beds across 13 private nursing homes.

It is important to note that people in Carrick-on-Suir and surrounding areas who require convalescent, respite and-or palliative care services are being supported in HSE settings in the south Tipperary area, including St. Theresa's Hospital, Clogheen, HSE Cluain Árann, in Tipperary town and HSE St. Anthony's unit, in Clonmel.

Palliative care services are developed in line with national policy, Sláintecare, the HSE’s palliative care development framework and the palliative model of care. Level 2 palliative care beds are provided in the context of services also available to palliative care individuals within the south-east community healthcare area. An example is the south-east regional palliative care centre in University Hospital Waterford, which provides 20 in-patient beds and which has the expertise of a specialist palliative care multidisciplinary team. Level 2 palliative care beds are currently provided in St. Anthony’s unit, Clonmel, St. Theresa’s hospital, Clogheen, and Cluain Arann, Tipperary town. In addition, it is our experience that people are choosing to remain at home for end of life and our services are supporting that choice.

We remain committed to providing quality community health services for the population of Carrick-on-Suir and the wider region. To preserve the community ethos at the existing St. Brigid’s hospital site, it was determined that St. Brigid’s could be utilised as a hub for integrated community services. The site is ideally located beside the primary care centre and thus allows for optimum team co-location.

The primary care centre is located on the same campus as St. Brigid’s hospital building. This purpose-built development opened in 2018 with a number of HSE staff and services located on-site, including public health nursing, allied health professionals and civil registration.

The community healthcare network 5 area encompasses Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Clogheen, with staff located in St. Brigid’s and the primary care centre. The community healthcare network management team and the GP lead are based in St. Brigid’s. The chronic disease management team accesses St. Brigid’s as a base and for outreach to other sites across south Tipperary. Staff currently based in St. Brigid's hospital extend across clinical and administrative areas, and details are provided in our written submission.

Regarding engagement with staff who worked at St Brigid's district hospital, south-east community healthcare undertook an engagement process with the St. Brigid's staff members with a view to ensuring that they were supported and accommodated during this time. The HSE carried out a series of meetings collectively with staff and their unions and also with individual staff members. Again, I reiterate our appreciation of the staff who worked in St. Brigid's down through the years.

I hope this detailed account will provide the rationale for the discontinuation of short-stay in-patient services at St. Brigid's hospital. The further development of primary care and community services within an acute community services campus to serve Carrick-on-Suir and its environs will, in line with Sláintecare, see the further transition of services to a more community-oriented local population approach.

I thank Ms Killeen White. Before I let others in, I will make some points. On behalf of this committee, I express our full appreciation for what the staff down there have done, as well as the wider community in Carrick-on-Suir and counties Kilkenny and Waterford for all the fundraising undertaken through the years to keep St. Brigid's open. In the correspondence we keep getting back from the HSE, and the working committee there, we have on numerous occasions sought reports, including engineers reports, in respect of the HSE standing over the decision to close this facility. Those documents have not arrived and nothing in the opening remarks of Ms Killeen White has given us any further belief that there is something to explain this.

There is an awful lot of opinion involved in some of the decisions taken. I could have an opinion on Dublin Airport and a runway heading one way, but that does not mean I am an expert in what way the aviation industry should operate. I do not, and I do not think anybody here, would stand over a situation where someone had an opinion and then just decided to close the hospital. For those people who may be watching this meeting, if one of the reasons to close St. Brigid's was because it was situated on a floodplain, how in God's name was a couple of million euro spent on building a new primary care centre on the same site? How can the HSE state that the floodplain caused the closure of St. Brigid's hospital but that it will now put in other services on the site and continue on with the attitude of if it gets flooded, it gets flooded? What kind of decisions led to this situation? Where are the reports from any expert on issues with the floodplain, fire hazards or anything? We have looked for them and the committee has looked for them and we have never got them.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I thank the Chair. In the context of the floodplain, that posed a challenge with regard to the new build that was the primary care centre-----

It is in the same yard.

Ms Kate Killeen White

Yes, it did pose a challenge but adaptations had to be made to the primary care centre to overcome this challenge. Those adaptations were made. The experts' opinion in this regard lies within our technical and estates department. We use their opinion on an ongoing basis. Regarding St. Brigid's, this, in a nutshell, presented as a problem for us because the existing build was not conducive to the adaptations required to deliver the kind of services we would like. We were aware an extension was required and in 2018 attempts were made to determine the possibility of acquiring land in the area to develop this extension. Unfortunately, that too was a challenge for us that we were not able to overcome. I ask my colleague, Mr. Ruane, to add anything to this information, if he so wishes.

Sorry, before Mr. Ruane comes in, this concerns the making of a vital decision that affects three counties and an awful lot of people. Surely a decision should be taken on expert advice and not just opinion. To let people know as well, movement was mentioned but the unit at Clogheen is 45 km from Carrick-on-Suir and 61 km from Tipperary town. We do not even have a bus service going from Cashel to Clonmel, never mind from Carrick-on-Suir to Clogheen and those places. The community was not even taken into consideration here because of opinions. This is what we are trying to get at. Surely any decisions being taken by the HSE, or something like that, should be based on reports or work done. Are there such reports and, if so, can we get copies?

Ms Kate Killeen White

We do base our decisions on the expert opinions from our colleagues in estates. We also, however, base our decisions on many factors, including the Health Act regulations, say for better healthcare, fire precautions, etc. What is really important in this context as well is that in March 2020 the whole country, including south Tipperary, had to deal with Covid-19. Another determining factor in this instance, therefore, were the enhanced infection prevention and control guidelines, which we had to apply in the context of the Covid-19 pandemic.

It is important to stress that in 2018 consideration had been given by hospital management, in conjunction with technical services, to adding an extension to St. Brigid's hospital with a view to addressing the environmental challenges. The building itself, however, and the surrounding grounds and parking areas did not allow for that to happen. Unfortunately, the physical adaptations and changes required to operate the service in line with the statutory and regulatory frameworks, coupled with the existing infrastructure, were not conducive with the level of works required.

From reading through the different documentation we have got since this petition was first submitted, what seems to be happening here is that the HSE is coming up with reasons to have closed this facility and making these fit the decision that was taken. This is rather than having done this the other way round, which would be doing everything properly, going through every channel and then deciding. It seems to be the case instead that the HSE is coming up with excuses to explain why it has put the cart before the horse.

Deputy Funchion is anxious to get away because she has another meeting, so I am going to let in other members. I call Deputy Funchion.

I agree with the assessment of the Chair. Sometimes decisions are made and then people try to justify them. At a time when we are under such pressure in our health services, is this not a perfect facility and location for people? There is the issue of the lack of transport in rural Ireland. Some of the suggested alternatives are not really an option for people if they do not have their own transport. We know how difficult it is for people in rural communities to access public transport. Keeping services in local communities, particularly at a time when we are under serious pressure in our health facilities, is important.

It is disingenuous of the HSE to talk about St. Brigid's Hospital being unfit for purpose because of the distance between beds in the five-bed wards when there are trolleys in hospital corridors. That must present health and safety issues. What work was done to see about bringing hospital up to standard and making it fit for purpose if that was seen as such and issue? There were other issues regarding the narrowness of the hallway and the extension. Surely when we have an existing building we should try to use it and do whatever necessary to bring it up to standard.

The report and briefing dated 30 July 2020 noted there remained a critical requirement for staff elsewhere in community healthcare services at the time. This feeds into the narrative that it was closed because of a decision taken higher up and now the witnesses are here to justify it for those people. Were staff needed elsewhere? If that was the case, it would be unfair because this facility was up and running and the staff should have been left where they were. Over Christmas, when it was announced on one day that 350 people were waiting on trolleys there was almost celebration because we did not have almost 1,000 people on trolleys. We are under serious pressure and if we can keep facilities like St. Brigid's Hospital in local areas, it would be invaluable to communities. I would go as far as to say facilities like this in local areas will save lives ultimately. We might not be seeing headline figures of that but I am certain people are falling through the cracks. There is no way the health services can be treating people adequately given the numbers waiting on trolleys in hospitals. I would strongly support going back to the drawing board and looking at how we can bring the hospital up to standard to keep it in the local community.

Ms Kate Killeen White

To reiterate, there had been challenges with St. Brigid's Hospital for many years prior to Covid. There are well documented challenges pertaining to the physical infrastructure of the building, including the two five-bed wards. One of the five-bed wards did not have access to showering facilities. The individuals who occupied that ward had to go downstairs either via the lift or the stairwell to access showering facilities. That is simply not the kind of service we want to provide.

For the information of members, the five-bed wards have become four-bed wards. The physical space was available. It was not, as stated in the witness's opening statement, that there was a space between beds of 76 cm. That applied when there were five beds in the wards. Making them four-bed wards made room for wardrobes or more space between beds. I grant that the shower facilities were going to be a problem but space was not.

Ms Kate Killeen White

As I said, there were well-documented challenges before Covid 19. Then came the pandemic, which we are still experiencing. That brought with it more challenges for infection prevention and control. When we were preparing for Covid-19 we decanted a number of our short-stay units to utilise them as Covid step-down units if required. Thankfully, we did end up in that position in this country. However, we did have a requirement for staff elsewhere, including testing and vaccination centres. We redeployed the staff from St. Brigid's Hospital to those alternative locations to deliver on the pandemic response. The issues at St. Brigid's presented before Covid. The pandemic hit and then we had more significant issues to deal with in the context of infection prevention and control requirements.

Regarding services in the local community, I acknowledge that we need to develop our services in our communities. That is what made this a very difficult decision. We are very familiar with Carrick-on-Suir and St. Brigid's and we know the hospital is in the heart of the community. Nevertheless, we are required to operate our services in line with infection prevention and control and safer and better health care standards. The HSE was not confident that St. Brigid's could resume short-stay services in line with the guidelines we were required to meet at the time to resume our services.

The HIQA reports indicated that there was only 76 cm of space between the beds in the two five-bed wards. Current advice generally recommends 1.2 m between beds and our health building notes recommend a bed space of 1.8 m. These were the challenges we had to overcome. As the Chair has pointed out, even with the reduced capacity, the showering facilities remained a challenge.

The question regarding what attempts were made is a fair one. Two issues needed to be considered in the context of St. Brigid's Hospital. Those were upgrading the existing buildings so that we could operate in line with the guidelines and infection prevention and control. We have to bear in mind that we were operating, and are still operating, in a global pandemic. Our primary focus continues to be to deliver safe services and ensure we can prevent transmission of Covid-19 and prevent transmission of hospital acquired infections. There were two major impediments to upgrading and extending the building. The first was the requirement to raise the floor levels by approximately 1 m. The advice we were given suggested we would have to demolish the existing building and build from the ground up. The second was the site within the area of St. Brigid's. Acquiring land to develop the building was a problem for us. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Ruane, to speak in more detail about the technical aspects.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I was the author of the short report on St. Brigid's Hospital. While I will not say I am an expert, I have over 20 years' experience in the Department. Before that I spent many years working for builders so I have a fair bit of knowledge. I am also very familiar with our requirements for healthcare buildings. Many of our healthcare buildings are old. This is a challenge we have throughout the region.

The issue with the flooding was that when the primary care centre was being built, a flood survey was done and it was insisted that the building be raised by 1 m. Our hospital building will have to be raised also, as part of the survey, although perhaps not by a full metre. It could only be 30 cm or so but the problem lies in trying to tie a new building into an existing building which has quite a small footprint. We have difficulties in our hospitals and healthcare buildings with ramps and steps and trying to move trolleys and take deliveries. It can be very difficult.

I appreciate that the witness has experience in building. I have 40 years' experience and other members also have experience. It is not difficult to tie in a new building to an old building. We heard about the report that was done.

When was the time that St. Brigid's flooded, that there is such a worry about it now? We have not come across anyone in Carrick-on-Suir who can ever remember it flooding. Why is there a worry now that they are talking about raising it by 1 m?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

The primary care centre was raised by 1 m from what it was originally going to go in at. The height of the primary care centre is approximately 1 ft. higher than the existing hospital. We saying that when a survey is done of that, we feel we will be asked to raise the floor level of our extension by approximately 1 ft., or something in that order, but it makes it extremely difficult to tie in the two levels. You know yourself if you are building around a change in level like that, it might work in a house where it could be incorporated in as a step, it is very difficult to do in a hospital or healthcare facility. That was my point on that.

There are old healthcare buildings all around the country onto which extensions have been put and that has not been a problem.

I have one tiny supplementary question. I take the point being made in relation to infection control and everything but surely then the HSE is breaking its own rules on a daily basis in places where there are trolleys on corridors. If that is the case, should those wards not be shut down that day and for the few days or weeks that happens? The expression "when you are defending you are losing" applies here and I do not mean that personally because Ms Killeen White has been given the job to come in to try and defend the indefensible. With all due respect, it really seems like she is clutching at straws to come up with justification; particularly on that point around infection control. University Hospital Limerick, UHL, must be in serious breach if that is the case. I do not think they ever have corridors without trolleys. I thank the Chair for the opportunity to speak as I am actually not on this committee.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I appreciate the Deputy's question. They are different premises and services and we have to comply with the Safer Better Healthcare guidelines that apply to community designated centres including the likes of St. Brigid's. I appreciate what she is saying about trolleys but, as I say, people would have access to St. Brigid's for short stays so they would have stayed a number of nights in the premises and would have accessed it for respite services. That is the difference. St. Brigid's operated a different service.

In fairness, it has to be the same rules in relation to infection control. That is my final point because I have taken up enough time.

I welcome the HSE staff and thank them for coming in. I do not think we agree with what they are saying but we will be courteous at any rate.

I refer to narrow corridors, flood plains and fire safety. Was an estimate provided for refurbishment of the building? Ms Killeen White mentioned St. Anthony’s unit in her opening statement. The last correspondence I got from the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, said there was only plans to put in one palliative care bed into St. Anthony's. Hopefully we will get that rectified and there will be more but St. Anthony's is not going to solve the issues in Clonmel not to mind taking on Carrick-on-Suir as well. There are three palliative care beds in the plan I have in front of me and they would be the envy of any hospital. There is a lounge off each bedroom and a sun room off the third. They have exactly what any family unfortunate enough to have someone who requires palliative hospital care would want in order to have adequate space so the family can stay there in - luxury is the wrong word - some kind of comfort. That is what we are looking for in St. Anthony's and we have a serious uphill battle trying to get it. In this case, we have them in Carrick-on-Suir and now we are doing away with them.

St. Theresa’s hospital in Clogheen and the unit in Cluain Arann were mentioned both by the witnesses and by the Cathaoirleach as possibilities for residents of Carrick-on-Suir. There are an awful lot of people in Carrick-on-Suir without their own transport. The distance from Clogheen and Cluain Arann to Carrick-on-Suir would make that completely impractical. As to the talk about Covid-19, St. Brigid's was adequate to be a step-down facility if we had a very bad Covid-19 epidemic but unfortunately in the middle of the pandemic and under the darkness of this time, the decision was made to close it. I just cannot understand. It was going to be okay as a step-down facility for Covid-19 but in the middle of the pandemic, St. Brigid's is closed.

There are so many things here that do not sit well with me. A huge amount of money has been spent on the primary care centre. We have the children's hospital here in St. James's. At the time I was only at my first parliamentary party meeting and we were in opposition. I could not see the logic of trying to build the children's hospital where they were trying to build it. I am not saying I am a construction expert or anything but it was in a confined space. It is getting near completion and has cost a huge amount of money.

Here in Carrick-on-Suir was a building and definitely the ground floor was exactly what we wanted. There was no one saying that we expected to keep the respite beds upstairs and the same number of people in respite. Anyone you talk to in Carrick-on-Suir would have accepted a lessor number of beds and improvements to the infrastructure that was there. We had a building there with two five-bed wards and twin bed wards. Surely with a proper design an adequate respite facility could have been put in there.

I would accept we would have had to lose beds out of it. If they had their three palliative care beds and a number of respite beds with the proper infrastructure, the people of Carrick-on-Suir would be very happy. I do not think any attempt was made, on economic terms even, to put an argument in place about achieving the beds for Carrick-on-Suir. We all argue about the scarcity of beds in the HSE and the crisis the whole health service is in. Here we had low-hanging fruit that could provide a certain number of beds and we have just decided to take the easy option and close it. It is just not good enough. As I said, it galls me to look at the floor map here with the three hospice rooms and ideal facilities off them which we are just going to let go.

The upstairs would obviously have required significant investment and refurbishment but when the primary care centre was being built, were there discussions or do we have minutes of any discussions about what impact it was going to have on St. Brigid's? St. Brigid's was there at this stage and was providing a vital service for Carrick-on-Suir and its environs; Waterford and south Kilkenny included. Was there discussion at that stage? If not, why not?

St. Brigid's was the facility that was there and it needed to be established if this facility was going to impact on it. Now the HSE is telling us, because the primary care centre has gone up 1 m in height, it is impacting the possibility of renovating St. Brigid's. Surely that discussion should have taken place before the construction of the primary care centre. The reality is that we are here now. We have a primary care centre which has a very impressive list of staff providing community care but every community unfortunately wants palliative care beds. We have three excellent beds in St. Brigid's. We have people ringing us in our constituency offices every day who want a respite bed when a person is coming out of hospital and they need another week or two weeks before being able to come home and be looked after at home. We accept there is a focus on home care but ironically, the more people in home care, the more demand there will be for respite because the people who are providing that home care will want a rest at certain times whether it is going on a weekend away, a week's holiday or whatever. The two go together.

Ms Killeen White has said in her statement that the HSE is focused on home care. We will all hopefully be able to be looked after at home in our old age but the people doing that will want a break at certain stages. To leave an area of this size without palliative care and respite beds limits that.

St. Anthony’s was referred to. I had to smile because I have had serious correspondence over St. Anthony's going back over the past 18 months to try to get proper palliative care into St. Anthony’s. I can produce the letter for Ms Killeen White. The last letter stated there would be one palliative care bed in it. I do not think that will be the case when we have that finished, but that was the last official letter I got. Definitely, a town the size of Clonmel would want a multiple of that.

We are completely unhappy with the way this decision was arrived at and the research that was done into it. Did the HSE put together an estimate of what a refurbishment of St. Brigid’s would have cost to keep the three palliative care beds downstairs and whatever a healthcare expert would say was the optimal level for the wards upstairs? Whatever that came out at, with proper shower facilities etc., the people of Carrick-on-Suir would have embraced that with open arms. Everyone accepts the building needed refurbishment and improvement. There is no argument there. To just close the gate and leave an area without its palliative care and respite is not acceptable.

I would like to know what the costs were and what the cost of the refurbishment would have been. When we opt to build new facilities, the costs go into the millions. It does not rest with me to walk away from a building we have. Councillor Bourke, who is here in the Gallery, and I got assurance on St. Brigid’s. While I do not want to harrow old ground, the people of the area do not accept this was the best option for them. To say to them that they can go to Clogheen or Tipperary town or we will have St. Anthony’s up the road for them is just not acceptable. The people of south Kilkenny, Waterford and Carrick-on-Suir want respite and palliative care there. We will not rest until we get that.

Ms Kate Killeen White

On palliative care beds, I appreciate that those three palliative care beds were valued in the community. From an HSE perspective, we have to look at the building as a whole as opposed to segregating out certain beds. We have to look at the viability and the options associated with the building as a whole. As discussed and as outlined in the opening statement, works to make the existing St. Brigid’s site suitable for use in compliance with infection prevention and control and space guidance would be extensive. The opinion proffered to us from colleagues was that the upgrade of the existing building was simply not a viable option and we would be looking at significantly reduced bed bays. The works themselves and the building itself just did not gel and were not conducive to the works required. That is the reason we were also looking at an extension and I already outlined the reasons why one was not possible in the site.

On palliative care services, there is a spectrum of services provided for palliative care or those that require palliative care services, ranging from the supports in the home to level 2 beds to level 3 beds. I already outlined that a new 20-bed unit opened in Waterford in 2021, which is comprised of palliative beds. The new 50-bed unit in Clonmel in St. Anthony’s will also cater for the population of Carrick-on-Suir. I have heard the Deputy’s comments on the palliative care provision and I thank him for that. A spectrum of services are provided. The data are indicating that people are choosing to live out their end-of-life days at home and we facilitate that.

With regard to individualised arrangements for families, we appreciate that some families may not have access to transport and it might be a difficulty for those families to access services that are not in the immediate environs or immediate locality. At the time of this decision, we communicated that where that was presenting, we would work with individual families, like we do across the south east and across the country, to put in individualised or bespoke packages for those families. We would continue to do that and we do that across all of our services.

The primary care centre and the facilities there complemented the services that were provided in St. Brigid’s. It was not a case that it was one or the other. We simply found ourselves in a situation where the shortcomings, which had been identified in St. Brigid’s for many years prior to Covid, unfortunately, became very real during Covid, particularly from an infection prevention and control perspective. When we looked at the Covid step-down options available when we were planning for Covid, we were operating in a bit of a vacuum. We did not know what Covid was going to bring to this country and how it would impact and affect the provision of services. It was as time went on, as we progressed from one wave of Covid into another, learned more about Covid and learned more about how the infection travels and is spread that we realised that we could not admit people back into St. Brigid’s hospital given its environment. It would have been wrong to admit patients into St. Brigid’s when we were aware of the shortcomings in the premises.

I appreciate the Deputy’s comments and questions. I would like to reiterate that this was not an easy decision; it was not the easy way out. It was a very difficult decision because we are aware of how valued St. Brigid’s is in the community.

Ms Killeen White is clearly saying that no costings were got regarding the refurbishment of St. Brigid’s.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I apologise. I meant to say that I would ask my colleague, Mr. Ruane, to come in on that.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

We looked at this over a number of years. There are significant challenges. The Deputy has seen the plan in front of him. In some ways, the palliative care and the hospice single rooms on the ground floor show the imbalance of the whole lot. We had 13 patients on the middle floor. To try to correct that was going to be difficult. HIQA correctly pointed out that the spacings of the five-bed unit were way too close. We would have liked to put in an en-suite in there somewhere.

The question was about costings. We all understand the five-bed and all the problems. Were the costings done?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

No. The costings were not done because we did not get that far.

There were no costings done.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

We did not come up with the solutions. We knew it was going to be very significant. Even at that, we felt we were not going to meet the standards-----

We are back to opinions. Like I said at the start, this is a case of just having an opinion and closing some place down. Just coming back before Senator Craughwell, we keep hearing about reports done in previous years and all that. Being closed down was the culmination of them. Where are these reports? We, in the committee, and people down there have always asked for them. There is nothing coming in front of us. Where are the reports that the HSE sat down, looked at and came to a decision based on? We again ask for those reports.

Ms Kate Killeen White

The HIQA reports are available on the website and demonstrate the issues that were there in 2018. They are available on the website.

The HIQA reports never mention it not being fit for purpose; it is the HSE that has included that. As I said earlier, that makes it sound as if the HSE's decision to close it down is because there was something massive. The HSE mentioned it three times and HIQA never mentions it being not fit for purpose.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I am trying to explain the situation that presented before Covid and then the situation that presented both during and indeed as we continue to deal with Covid. The basic infection prevention and control requirements, which were present before Covid but became a significant aspect in the context of readmittance to St. Brigid’s, are also available. They say things such as us needing to maximise patient dignity; ensure ease of deliverability of patient care; minimise transmission risk; have adequate toilet and shower facilities; have a number, design and placement of facilities to manage personal care; have hand hygiene facilities; and have adequate ventilation in all areas.

Unfortunately, St. Brigid's did not have the elements we would require to resume short-stay services there.

But we do not known if the decision was made without those costings. Senator Craughwell is next.

I welcome the witnesses from the HSE.

I apologise for interrupting. I wanted to make sure the message that my hand has been up since the presentations was passed on.

The Deputy's name is down.

I am sure the committee members usually go before substitutes and visitors. I know that did not happen today.

The Senator can continue. Deputy Buckley will be next.

It is Tipperary's day and I have no difficulty with the Deputies but the reality is that members of the committee should come in. We will always give way to people from the county, which is why I did not intervene, but I am a member of the committee.

To be clear, we have taken the names as they indicated to speak.

That is not the way it works in committees.

The Chairman asked when the last time the flood plain that is alleged to exist actually flooded in the area where St. Brigid's is located. Nobody seems to know anything about a flood so could Mr. Ruane tell me the last time it flooded?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I do not know when it last flooded but what I was saying-----

That is fine. We do not need to go further into it. Mr. Ruane has no evidence of a flood there.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I have no evidence of that.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I know it is on a flood plain. Places with no history of flooding flooded in the past few years.

That is fine. We could apply that to anywhere in the country. It never flooded before but it might flood. Ms Walsh is director of nursing so she would be the ideal person to deal with infection control. We are talking about shutting down St. Brigid's because of infection control issues among other issues. All the witnesses exaggerated the number of beds. They are four-bed wards, not five-bed wards. We turn it into a Covid step-down facility. Covid is a highly transmissible disease yet we are not worried about infection control there. I do not believe there was ever an intention to reopen it, although this is not a question for Ms Walsh. I believe the stuff was ripped out. What is the difference in infection control for a Covid environment versus any other environment? Is there a difference?

Ms Anne Walsh

There are different levels of infection control in the healthcare setting. There are standard precautions and transmission-based precautions depending on what type of infection the person has and what type of isolation that person might need. Regarding standard precautions, every patient who comes into a hospital is at risk of picking up a hospital-acquired infection if he or she does not have the required amount of space or facilities. Our goal is to provide safer and better care for every patient. Ultimately, the infection control guidelines are there to protect the patient. We have national infection control guidelines and there are HIQA guidelines. As a day-to-day manager of the unit, you are there to implement these guidelines to ensure the safety of the person-----

I appreciate that as director of nursing, Ms Walsh would be very good at making sure everything was right in her area of expertise. How many cases of cross-infection were reported to the HSE during the five years prior to closure? Infection control seems to be one of the major reasons why we are closing down these wards so how many people suffered cross-infection?

Ms Kate Killeen White

I do not have those data.

Could Ms Killeen White get that figure for the committee?

Ms Kate Killeen White

I can get that figure. How many-----

For example, how many reported incidents were there of people catching MRSA or clostridium difficile or similarly highly infectious diseases? How many of the nursing staff complained about cross-infection within the unit? We heard a presentation from the community. Whoever made this decision, and I am not blaming or pointing fingers at anybody, made the decision to close down a community health facility where people go to die and the HSE is telling them not to worry about it as they can go to Waterford, Tipperary or Clonmel. People go to this place to die. We need community services, not forcing people into their cars to drive 60 km or 100 km to see the person who is dying. I am sure all of us in this room have at some stage a relative die in palliative care. It is a horrible experience and to add the burden of travel is simply unacceptable.

There are Deputies here from Tipperary and Kilkenny and I do not want to impede them. The Chairman has said no costings were done. Deputy Cahill also asked about costings. If no costings were done, it strikes me that a decision was made to close the hospital and the only thing was when would the HSE find the opportunity to do it. Along comes Covid, it was a question of clearing everybody out and before anybody could get back in, stripping out everything that would make it a safe to be. Is that a fair assessment?

Ms Kate Killeen White

No, I would not accept that. This building had shortcomings of which we were aware from 2016 to 2018. Attempts were made to refurbish and make the changes necessary to meet our regulatory requirements. Unfortunately, the premises itself did not allow for the level of work required. It was simply not viable to do the works that were required within the existing building. It simply would not cater for the level of work required.

I do not want to minimise the palliative care piece because that is significant and emotional and I understand the impact on families. However, the decision was not made to close St. Brigid's. St. Brigid's has been repurposed as a community facility to work in tandem with the primary care centre.

In fairness, in respect of repurposing the building to provide community care where once members of the same community could go with their loved ones to allow them to die in the comfort and warmth of their own families, you can do all the repurposing under the sun. These things drive me insane. You can something that is working that people use and all of a sudden, it is gone and we are moving people into centres of excellence but they are hundreds of miles away. I will not take any more time because I am really annoyed about this. I will give my colleagues from the area more time.

It makes for difficult listening. I was honoured enough to sit on the committee that produced the Sláintecare report. I could use choice words here but I will not. I am looking at a HIQA inspection from 2018. The report on St. Brigid's Hospital, Portlaoise, from 2021 is practically identical until it comes to the premises. Inside the premises, the staff and everything else are working perfectly. Some of the speakers said it. Sláintecare involves community-led and community-integrated services. What does the HSE do? It sends them from Tipperary to Waterford or put them down in Clonmel, which is bonkers. That is not going to wear with the public.

As the HSE is the proprietor of this building, it is in charge of its maintenance. In every HIQA report, I suspect that even prior to 2018, the HSE was told about windowsills, the toilet not being right or the handrail being loose. It is down to here. How many centimetres? The number is 76 cm - take one bed out.

I think the people who put public money into St. Brigid's would accept losing a bed to keep the services in the community. It is a human rights issue because the HSE is not providing what it says under HSE policy is the best possible healthcare, which is care within the community. It is taking it all out of it. The inspections go back to 2018. Were there any more before that which made similar recommendations? The majority of things in the report are compliant or get excellent marks. That will tell you how well it is run until it comes to the one thing, namely, the premises. The building is originally from 1817 and we are up to 2023 so we are talking about 206 years and nobody decided to put a paintbrush to a wall. It just drives me bonkers.

I cannot believe the comments as regards opinions. I am not talking down to the witnesses but this seems to be systemic. There was mention of a HIQA report in the last two years. I am in CHO 4, which is Cork and Kerry. We have a fully integrated mental health respite centre in the town of Midleton in County Cork and because of a HIQA report and a Mental Health Commission report, the HSE has come back and said it is not compliant. It was not compliant in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 or 2020. There were two reports in 2022 and yet the HSE did not spend a brown penny to even fix a fire alarm or change the hinges on a door. It left it, to the detriment of the people who actually use the service and we are facing a loss of 22 beds there and all the additional services.

The witnesses say they are repurposing the building but I would say to people not to believe that because we are losing faith. We should have one of the best health services in the world. We have the best people on the ground working there. It seems all these local community buildings are going to be closed because of the failings of the HSE as an entity. As the proprietor of all these buildings, it has failed in its duty of care to maintain the buildings. Who suffers because of that? It is all the patients it is supposed to be supplying the service for.

I suspect St. Brigid's in Portlaoise is the next hospital we will be discussing here because it is not compliant or fit for purpose because the building has not been maintained. I do not know how many floors are going to be built on the children's hospital. Surely you can go up if you cannot go out. We have been talking about that in planning for years. I do not know how the people of Tipperary feel but I can tell you this: somebody has to talk. This is not a personal attack. If this non-compliance of buildings is happening in my area of CHO 4 and is happening again in Tipperary, Portlaoise and another county I cannot even remember now, why is the HSE not being held responsible?

The general public and the people who need those services are the ones who are suffering here and it is because of the incompetence of management. Again, this is not a personal attack on the witnesses because this is happening all over the country. Why is nobody being held to account? What is going to happen next week when inspectors go into another hospital and there is another HIQA report that says the staff and medicine are brilliant? Someone mentioned infectious disease. HIQA will produce reports that everything is perfect and the only thing the non-compliance will come down to again is the actual structure of the building. That is the entity the HSE is responsible for, on top of other services, but it has been totally ignored. It has been ignored in a number of centres

Regarding Covid, we did not have Covid in 2018 when this report was published. Why were none of these recommendations taken on board? It is like a car. If someone goes to get the NCT and the car fails they will get a snag list saying to fix the steering rack or put in a ball joint and then when they go back the car passes the test. It is then fit for purpose.

The witnesses are using the excuse that it is HIQA's fault that this place is not fit for purpose when the HSE let it go. I just cannot understand it. These are excuses to move away. Ms Killeen White mentioned 13 private nursing homes and 147 public beds across four units. It seems to be a case of trying to get rid of this. The HSE wants to push it into the private sector so it will not have to worry about it anymore and so it will not get a beating for not looking after the buildings over the years. It is hoping it will all go away.

We should not even be in here talking about this. I am not even from Tipperary but if my parents or somebody in my family had the option of staying there in St. Brigid's I would want them to because I see the amazing level of care and skill. This has to be down to the failings of the HSE as an entity that has ignored report after report. I do not know if there were reports prior to 2018 on this but I suspect there are and I will go looking for them. I imagine the majority of things would have come out as compliant, above average and a good standard, or a gold standard in some of cases, and yet the building will be what let it down.

I do not think anybody in here is able to give me an actual reason this is happening countrywide. Each CHO area is coming in and making excuse after excuse when the excuses do not boil up here. I genuinely think it is a human rights issue. The HSE is supposed to be the public health service in this country and taxpayers' money - it is not Government funding but taxpayers' money - is going into this the public should at least be entitled to their opinion. All this seems to be based on opinion and that it should be a two-way system.

I asked before if CHO areas talk to each other about this and say they are having a problem with X, Y and Z. If it is the same type of problem, it must be the same situation and it is the same situation because report after report has been ignored. I would revisit this. The HSE needs to go to the Minister or the Department and say there is a problem here. A figure of €5 million was mentioned. That is pennies in the overall budget. Somebody has to grow a pair of balls here and say what the cost is. This is the financial cost but we also have to ask what the cost is to the community and what does it cost to get all this community-led and community integrated. Public money is going into the place, never mind the additional money because the people in the area believed in it. I have read statements from people who used the service and the HSE is going to take the whole lot away because it failed to do what it was told to do. It is as simple as that.

I do not want a reply because I do not think I am going to get a response. I just want the witnesses to take it on board. It is not a personal attack. There are amazing people within the HSE but senior management need to be called out here. We have ageing buildings and we need to be addressing that, not shutting them down and using excuses. We are decimating communities when all our new health policies, whether on the future of mental health care or Sláintecare, call for community-led fully integrated local care. Yet we are actually doing the opposite because there was a failing within the management of the HSE. In 2023, it is just not good enough. I am sorry for going on. I am conscious there are people here from Tipperary who want to get in. I just had to say my piece because it is happening all over the country and we are going to be in here again in another couple of months dealing with another hospital.

I will let in Deputy Mattie McGrath, who is substituting for Deputy O'Donoghue-----

Ms Kate Killeen White

If I could just come in there, I thank the Deputy for his comments. I appreciate what he has said and I am aware of some of the locations he has mentioned. It is important to stress that there are multiple ongoing plans around our capital infrastructure within the HSE, including in south Tipperary. We are developing the new unit in St. Anthony's and we have had discussions around the plan for a new unit in Cashel because we had decamped that as a result of Covid. There are multiple strands of capital infrastructure ongoing right across the country, and investment in existing buildings to try to refurbish them in line with the guidelines we are working to. I just wanted to state that. I do not want to go back over it but as I said, the building simply was not viable to the level of works required at St. Brigid's-----

I am sorry for cutting across but that seems to be the issue. We might as well put this on the record again. At the moment, the HSE is taking people out of buildings that are more compliant and putting them into buildings that are less compliant. That is absolutely bonkers to me. I do not know how the HSE is getting away with it. I have written to the European Court of Human Rights because I feel this is a human rights issue.

People cannot be taken from a hotel, put into a tent and told that is fine. I am angry and I do not want to take up too much time, but I see this countrywide and the most vulnerable are the people who are suffering. It is not fair. A full system check has to be done here.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their engagement. I thank Ms Anne Walsh especially for her work on the services in Clogheen. We have been through all this with Clogheen hospital. It is a fabulous institution with significant local involvement. It is the sister hospital to Carrick-on-Suir. We saw what transpired there. Great people before me and political people insisted that it stayed there. It is a tremendous place. It got the work done and was made HIQA-compliant. We had the same situation with the bed numbers and wards not being HIQA-compliant but we worked through them. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark with regard to what happened in Carrick-on-Suir. It is rotten to the core. The questions have been asked so I will not repeat them. It was deemed fit to be used as a step-down facility for Covid and the witnesses are telling us it was not fit for anything else. Why did they not raise alarm bells then and say that it could not be used as a step-down facility and was not suitable for various things? They are pulling the wool over people's eyes.

I raised it again in the Chamber today at the request of some people from the committee and asked the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to correct the record, because she misled the Dáil when I asked a question on 18 January. She stated that the hospital was more than 200 years old. My information is that it is 180 years old. That is just a fact and a difference of 20 years. Either there are facts, not opinions, which someone can stand over or there are not. Therefore, I ask the Minister of State to correct the information and the record of the Dáil. She also stated that the hospital was deemed to be no longer fit for purpose by HIQA. Can the witnesses or anyone provide a specific report that states that HIQA said it is not fit for purpose? HIQA has never stated that in any of its reports and I asked the Minister of State to correct the record on that but she refused. People are telling us it is on the website. I want specific chapter and verse of where HIQA said the hospital was no longer fit for purpose.

Additionally, the Minister of State stated on 18 January that there were health and safety issues, especially relating to fire. I asked her again today to correct that because the action group, which I compliment on this, has had a fire and evacuation report, while another report from the HSE, dated 2019, raised no such issue. We are being told porkies and there are shifting sands. One might be told the truth once but to find out other things, one has to dig, scrounge, scrape, mix and burrow.

Mr. Ruane mentioned the white elephant. That building will be long gone before St. Brigid's will fall into disrepair. It is a noble building with noble staff and a noble community that raised so much money for those hospice homes. There is €70,000 or €80,000, I am told, in an account belonging to that community. When will that be returned to the community? It is not the HSE's. It is for the hospital. I do not know where it has gone. I am told it is in an account. Is it going back to the community? It is there for refurbishment. Did the HSE not do any costing because it thought the locals were going to do all the fundraising for it? I am appalled at the witnesses. I had a meeting before Christmas, when the HSE did not have figures. The HSE built that on the floodplain. It built a modern building. Will the HSE clarify if it was a public-private partnership, which I think it was? It was built with no wheelchair access. If I was building any kind of house, it would have to have wheelchair access or planning. What planning happened? Has the HSE any qualifications or engineer's report? How did that happen? That has to be added at a huge cost. What are the numbers working in the building? I would like a tour of that building if I could get one someday, to see it myself. Anytime I pass it, it looks more like a morgue to me than anything else because it is darkness and nothing seems to be happening there, but I do not know until I go in and see.

The witnesses mentioned the staff and that they have rededicated the hospital. There is no word of patients. Are any patients going in? There are wonderful staff. Some are definitely good in their own right. Do people know about it? Are they going in and using it? Is it like St. Luke's hospital in Clonmel? When my wife worked there in the 1980s, it had 800 patients. Now it has offices and more offices. Many are in better condition than this building. Why does the HSE need all the offices when mental health services patients are left at the wayside? We saw what happened with mental health services and have reports on it. I cannot remember the lovely acronym that was used for it. There were going to be community services but they have not been delivered. I have people ringing me about crises because they are not covered in Clonmel. People have been waiting for four days in the hospital in Clonmel to see a consultant for child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. They are in a state of trauma, as are their parents. The roll-out of mental health care has failed communities in many areas and it will not work here either. I am not taking it out on the witnesses but we need action and honesty, which we are not getting and have not got. Was Mr. Ruane in the HSE when it built this white elephant? He knows what I am talking about. It is the primary care centre.

The primary care centre.

Was Mr. Ruane in the HSE in his present job at that time?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I was not in my present job.

Who was the genius who decided to build it there and denied there was space, which I do not believe? There is ample space both at the back of and at the front of the building. According to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, we will not be driving cars, so we will not need the car parking space. It is a huge area. There is balderdash that old buildings and new buildings cannot be tied together. It is being done every day of the week with listed buildings, hospitals, public buildings, public offices, courthouses and so on. That does not wash with me at all. When did the HSE start to use the word "opinion"? Does it not have engineers' and architects' written reports that it can stand over? There could be a thousand opinions at the protest march and that is fair enough. We all have opinions but the closure of a hospital, denial of services and disregard for the people cannot be based on an opinion. I wonder now if it is political. I did not realise that 20 palliative care beds had been put into University Hospital Waterford. It took the three palliative care beds we had. We were promised three in St. Anthony's, as Deputy Cahill said. In my latest meeting with the HSE, we were told there was only going to be one bed. It was to be a new 60-bed facility, but the witnesses mentioned 50 beds in St. Anthony's. It is stepped down the whole time. There is no way in the world that one bed in Clonmel, two in Clogheen, where Ms Walsh does great work, and two in Cluain Arann will suffice for south Tipperary. It is an insult.

Fundraising goes on for the hospice and the great work that the nurses do. I have great experience in it. I lost two brothers, two cousins and many friends in palliative care. I visited Carrick-on-Suir many times and saw the hospice. I never heard anyone complain that it was dangerous. The five beds were a bit tight, as they were in other hospitals, but there were reduced numbers, which I would have accepted, but a vendetta was carried out against the people of Carrick-on-Suir and now the HSE will not go back to it. Either it is covering for the Minister or he is covering for the HSE. I do not know who is covering for whom but it will all be uncovered. The genie is out of the bottle. The witnesses do not have an answer among them.

Sorry. We will not start making accusations.

They are facts, as far as I am concerned.

We will look for the facts.

I will look for the facts. The HIQA report does not state anywhere that it is not fit for purpose. It decided it was fit for purpose for a Covid step-down facility as recently as 2020. Imagine that it was fit to be a step-down facility for Covid, with all the associated requirements, and then it was suddenly not. As I said, the 2019 fire report does not state anything. One cannot pick and choose. I am sorry that the witnesses are here before us but what has happened is not acceptable. It is a travesty of justice. As I have said, there is a white elephant. I have seen them in many places. There was one in Cahir. Everybody moved in the day it opened. I do not know what kind of a contract was signed for that building or what kind of a hames was made of it, such that there were no general practitioners. I have seen them built, they moved in and there was buy-in straightaway. I want to arrange a visit to that place if I can.

The equipment was moved out of the hospital in an insulting way shortly after the closure. It was equipment that the good people of Carrick-on-Suir, east Waterford and south Kilkenny had fundraised for. There are many questions. The witnesses know my views on it. They might tell me how they allowed the building there. There is such a thing as planning. If there was forward planning to extend the hospital, it would say that the building is taking up too much of the site. Why was that allowed?

Ms Kate Killeen White

I will come in there, Chairman, if that is okay. I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for his questions and comments. They are appreciated.

I will make a couple of points, if I may. In relation to the premises, I outlined some of the shortcomings that were there: the isolation requirements; the requirements for physical distancing; the fact that one ward did not have access to showering facilities and that those individuals had to go downstairs to access a shower; and concerns with regard to infection prevention and control.

I heard all that.

Ms Kate Killeen White

They do not lend themselves-----

And I accept that.

Let Ms Killeen White finish. Deputy Mattie McGrath can come back in.

We accept that they could cut down the numbers and keep the hospital.

Ms Kate Killeen White

They do not lend themselves to the kind of service that we want to deliver in 2023.

With regard to the primary care centre, there is activity in the primary care. I am happy to facilitate the Deputy's request for a visit to that centre. We can arrange that very quickly.

There are a range of services that are delivered in that primary care centre, from dental to civil registration, nursing, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, and dietetics. They are provided to people right across Carrick-on-Suir and south Tipperary. It is a functioning service and there are services being delivered there.

We have gaps, as the Deputy will be aware, in some of our recruitment and retention, and there are ongoing efforts to recruit into our services right across the south east, including in south Tipperary.

With regards to the €5 million that the Deputy's colleague referenced, that was in relation to a new build because, as I said, we were working on the position that the building itself, St. Brigid's, was simply not conducive to the level of upgrading works required for it to become a functioning residential or inpatient service. That €5 million relates to a new build and that was in the action that was published as part of the HIQA report.

With regards to palliative care, we have a new unit in Waterford. It opened last year. It has 20 beds. Over the course of late 2021, when it opened, and into 2022, we have had admissions into that unit from the south Tipperary area. More importantly, people are choosing to remain at home for their end-of-life care. In conjunction with the fantastic service that is provided by the hospice, we have been delivering services into people's home because that is their choice.

I accept what the Deputy is saying about the community of Carrick-on-Suir and that is important to acknowledge. This was not an easy decision for all of the reasons that I have outlined. I accept the Deputy's position in relation to that.

As I said, I am happy to facilitate the Deputy to visit to primary care centre in Carrick-on-Suir. We can arrange that very quickly.

Does Mr. Ruane want to answer the question that was to him?

I want to find out about the bank account, about the funds.

Ms Kate Killeen White

Apologies, I can answer that. At the time of the communication around the decision, South-East Community Healthcare gave a commitment to put a process in place to manage that funding. We are still working through that process.

What does that mean "to manage" it?

Ms Kate Killeen White

In terms of people who have sought refunds and people who wish to seek a refund from that donations account, we have put a process in place around that. We are continuing with that process.

I would like to discuss that further with Ms Killeen White. There was a committee that organised it. Could any of them arrive up and say to get it? I am not sure how the mechanics of that will work. I will debate that with on another occasion Ms Killeen White.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I thank the Deputy.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

Deputy Mattie McGrath had a number of queries there. The Deputy might have to repeat some of them.

The issue with the wheelchair access in the primary care centre in Carrick-on-Suir was that the building was set out at a certain level and when the flood risk analysis was done, that is where the issue that I brought in at the start arose. That is where the requirement was to raise the floor level, from what it was to be, by 1 m. That is what caused the huge issue with the wheelchair access. That was not noticed beforehand.

How come? Surely they had to get planning permission to build it, and adjacent to, if not in, a floodplain. Surely that should have come up in planning.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

What I am saying is that was the issue, and why the wheelchair access was such a difficulty there. Very late in the day, there was a requirement to raise the floor level by 1 m.

And yet they are saying that they can raise the hospital by 1 ft.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I am saying an extension would probably have to be raised by 1 ft. or so, but the tie-in was the issue. We do not know what exactly that flood assessment will come out with but it is probably in the order of 1 ft. It just makes it difficult to tie-in. It can be done. It is easier to do in a non-clinical environment.

Coming back to the issue of the costings that has been brought up on a number of occasions, we never really got to a stage of saying that this is what we need to do to the building because every time we looked at it, there were so many things required. I stated that we had 13 patients on the middle floor and what one had to do to bring that down to a safe standard. I refer to the fire regulations, etc., and what we would have to do in terms of fire escapes. For instance, we would have to replace the two wrought-iron fire escapes. We should really put in a fully-enclosed fire escape on each side. We have the central area. The central stairs is not a good situation in terms of compartmentation. On our new buildings, we would aim to have compartmentation so that if a fire happens in a certain area, one can move all the beds - one can move the patient and the bed - down into the next compartment. We cannot do anything like that in Carrick-on-Suir.

This is where we in estates department would be saying our solution to buildings like this is a new building. That is what we are doing in Clonmel. With St. Anthony's, on its own, there was no point in even trying to tie into it. That is why we put that onto a new site. We did the same in Waterford, with St. Patrick's. Once again, one could tinker around with trying to tie into that but the reality is, for the best and most cost-efficient way to provide the long-term correct standards, one needs a new build. We would say the same. That was our advice going back a number of years. The solution to Carrick-on-Suir was to build a new building on a greenfield site. That was our recommendation when we looked at it. As a result, we never came up with the costings because we never really came up with a drawing that we could cost.

If Mr. Ruane is making those decisions, surely there should be costings done to see if it is viable and cheaper to do up St. Brigid's or any building rather than go to a greenfield site and build new.

Coming back to what Deputy Mattie McGrath says about planning, if anybody in this room went out tomorrow and tried to get planning permission on a floodplain, he or she would be turned down. Had the HSE any problem getting planning for that primary care centre in a floodplain? Did any questions even arise when the drawings went in and suddenly it had to be lifted 1 m and we had to put in a wheelchair ramp?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

I was not involved in that programme. I do not know at what stage, but it was late in the day, when the-----

If Mr. Ruane tried to get planning permission on a floodplain in his own area, and he being in building, does he think he would get it?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

It is unlikely, but many buildings have been built in the past ten years that were built-----

Not in floodplains.

Briefly, I am reading from a report here that the action committee have. The evacuation report from the HSE dated 2019 raised no such issues of evacuation.

It is fine that Mr. Ruane talks of moving patients into different rooms. Patient safety is so important. However, we cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It is an old building and one cannot apply new standards to old buildings. HIQA had not said that in its report. I want to see the segments of the HIQA report the Minister has quoted from in the Dáil. I want to see the segments of the report - I see them myself as we have it - from 2011 where the fire and safety had no such issues. There is too much shifting sand here.

To me and to all of us here, it is not acceptable by any shape, make or form. I do not know where we will go with it, but it is just not good enough. It is easier to reckon now. There is a builder here in the room, Councillor Kieran Bourke, who would have it every day of the week from his quantity surveyor people.

If you wanted to build that hospital and it was 2,000 sq. m or whatever, there would be a figure per square metre and you could spend ten seconds getting a rough costing for the hospital.

The recommendation will be that we combine these HIQA reports and produce them to the committee.

Was there a miscommunication because I am online rather than in the committee room?

I apologise. We had not seen the Deputy's hand on the screen.

I had my hand up since before the presentation finished. Having heard from so many members of the local community at this committee previously, it is fair to say that the care that was given in St. Brigid's Hospital sounds like it was second to none. The building is the issue. Ms Killeen White outlined exactly what the issues with the building are. I will outline to her what I have interpreted from what she has said. I ask her to let me know if I am correct. The HSE is saying that the existing building could not be remediated to adhere to current standards and could not be extended either. Many of the complexities of that relate to things like the size and scope of the site, the flood plain issue and the regulations, not just for fire safety but also those relating to the congregation of beds and the distance that needs to be between them. I might get Ms Killeen White to elaborate on whether that is the right interpretation. After she does so, there are four or five questions I wish to ask.

Ms Kate Killeen White

That is correct. There were two issues, namely, the existing premises and the requirement for an extension, which was equally a challenge for us. I remind the committee that there were issues prior to Covid-19. After the pandemic hit, we had significant requirements around infection prevention and control, which equally led to the situation we have today.

Ms Killeen White is an expert in this field. In her opinion, could safe care have been delivered to older people in St. Brigid's Hospital at the point at which it closed?

Ms Kate Killeen White

When St. Brigid's Hospital was decanted, for want of a better word, for Covid reasons, we were operating in a vacuum. Covid hit and, as the months progressed, it became obvious that we could not deliver safe services in St. Brigid's Hospital in line with infection prevention and control. We were not confident that we could do that and it would have been wrong to admit patients into St. Brigid's Hospital when we were operating in that space.

That was when it was a HSE Covid-19 centre. Infection prevention control measures meant it was unsafe to operate in that situation during Covid. Is that correct?

Ms Kate Killeen White

There was only ever one admission into St. Brigid's Hospital as a Covid centre. It became very obvious very quickly that infection prevention and control meant the environment was not appropriate. At that point, the staff were redeployed to the testing centre. We still did not have a vaccination at that time so they were redeployed to the testing centre and other long-stay facilities where we needed the staff. It was not used in the way it was envisaged. As stated, there was only one admission. However, it became very obvious very quickly that we could not resume short-stay services at St. Brigid's Hospital.

The Chair made a suggestion earlier about whether we could still have it operating under the guidelines relating to the distance between beds. If we were to do that, it might result in there being four people per ward. Ms Killeen White would know the numbers better than I would. How many people would that accommodate upstairs and downstairs? Would that make it a feasible operation to run?

Ms Kate Killeen White

At that point, we would have been looking at halving the bed base from 16 down to eight. Even at that there was also an opinion that this would not be conducive to what we would want to deliver so it probably would be fewer than eight. Taking the building as a whole that is not a viable option.

I ask Ms Killeen White to elaborate on that and on why that is not viable. Is it not viable from an expenditure perspective, a care perspective or a combination of everything?

Ms Kate Killeen White

It would be a combination of everything from staffing to resources and operating a hospital of that size.

I refer to the hospital being repurposed. It has been stated that there are no patients. Ms Killeen White told us that 24 full-time equivalents would be on site. What services are being provided and what is happening in that building on a day-to-day basis?

Ms Kate Killeen White

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter, because I wanted to reiterate that. St. Brigid's Hospital has been repurposed. Down through its history, St. Brigid's Hospital has been repurposed a number of times since it originally became operational to it being a dental and maternity unit and then a short-stay hospital. Now it forms part of St. Brigid's Hospital health campus, which is important to say. We have moved so far along with St. Brigid's Hospital as a designated health campus for Carrick-on-Suir, and that is important. In the document provided, I have outlined the staff affiliated with St. Brigid's Hospital, which includes clinical staff right across disciplines, including respiratory, diabetes, administration and dietetics. They work in conjunction with the staff in the primary care centre. A broad range of services are delivered at both the primary care centre and St. Brigid's Hospital campus. The facility is used as an administration base for the staff who provide outreach or domiciliary home care visits or who deliver the clinical services in the primary care centre because that was deemed the most appropriate use of the building.

We have gone over the flood plain issue a fair bit. Is there anything the witnesses would like to add in that regard? It is mentioned somewhere in the opening statement, but I want to ask what year this building was first built.

Ms Kate Killeen White

It is my understanding that it was first operational in 1817.

That is more than 200 years ago, so maybe we will get the record of the Dáil corrected in that regard as well.

Ms Kate Killeen White

As I said, it has been repurposed multiple times over the years.

Does Ms Killeen White have anything to add in respect of the flood plain issue?

Ms Kate Killeen White

Other than what my colleague, Mr. Ruane, has stated, I do not.

We have heard from emotional families of people who were residents and who have worked there, and it is understandable that they are emotional. We have also heard from people who have felt the loss of this facility to their community, and it is regrettable that any service is ever lost from any community.

I thank the witnesses for coming in to put forward the case for what the rationale behind those decisions was. When it comes to a care facility, the quality of care and the safety of patients are the utmost priority and if HIQA deems things unsafe or in a situation where people cannot get the care that we should and must provide to them in 2023 then unfortunately decisions need to be made in that context. I thank the witnesses for coming to explain that because it is an emotive topic. From what we have heard from people on the ground, including the local representatives with whom we have dealt, the care at this service sounds like it was second to none. Unfortunately, however, the building sounds like it could not be remediated or extended to make this work and that is unfortunate but I am pleased that it is still in use as a healthcare facility and I want to thank everyone for making that happen.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I concur with that. The design and layout of some parts of the premises were unsuitable to meet the needs of the residents. They impacted residents' privacy and potentially compromised their dignity. The existing building simply did not allow for the kind of service we want to deliver. However, that is not to derogate the care that was delivered in that building.

I attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters this morning that was focused on what Ms Killeen White described, including privacy, the elements of congregated settings and why we need to move to decongregation. Much of what Ms Killeen White said rings true for those of us who are on that committee as well.

Deputy Higgins touched on some of the questions I was going to raise. Before I ask other questions, though, I am glad that Deputy McGrath is present. As someone who is meant to be an impartial Chair, I ask the Chairman to question Deputy McGrath's statement about people covering for one another. It was unfair to the officials and to the Member, who was not in the room at the time. I ask that it be withdrawn by the Deputy and that the Chairman ensure that is done.

I have asked Deputy McGrath. When he made his statement, I told him that-----

I am not withdrawing it. It is a total cover-up, full stop.

The Deputy cannot make that accusation.

It is not fair.

The backbenchers have been rounded up to come in and defend the Government. It is a laughing stock.

I am a member of this committee, Deputy.

On a point of order, I am a member of this committee as well.

As am I, and I had my hand up for an hour and a half.

I have been here, too. We have been more than willing to give way to those who-----

I appreciate that.

To be clear, Deputy McGrath is substituting for Deputy O'Donoghue and is entitled to-----

The Standing Order still obtains. The comment should be withdrawn.

Yes. I ask Deputy McGrath to withdraw it. The accusation was made when the person involved was not present to deny it.

There is too much shifting sand. Are we going to get the reports?

We have asked for them.

We have not received them.

We are not going to get them this evening.

Once we finish, we will recommend that we get the HIQA reports or any other report that exists. The reports were requested previously and our committee will ask for them again. However, I ask Deputy McGrath to withdraw the accusation that someone was covering up for someone else.

I cannot. I have been dealing with people in Carrick-on-Suir on this issue. It was taking away for-----

I appreciate that the Deputy has been dealing with people in Carrick-on-Suir-----

It was good enough for Covid.

-----and I have been speaking to them as well.

I know that. It was good enough for a Covid step-down facility. After Covid, it suddenly was not good enough. Someone has to-----

The Deputy is making an accusation based on his opinion, and we have spoken about opinions.

We give our opinions all day long. That is my opinion.

I ask that the statement be withdrawn. We can then continue with our meeting.

Ar aghaidh libh. I am not withdrawing it. Thank you.

I direct the Deputy to withdraw that utterance. If he does not, I must direct him to withdraw from the meeting.

I have to leave anyway because I am going into the Chamber. I appreciate the Chair letting me contribute, but I will not withdraw it. My firm belief-----

I ask the Deputy to withdraw from the meeting.

I will leave the meeting.

I wish to ask questions of the witnesses. We had a beneficial engagement with members of the action group previously. I can understand the concern, emotion and involvement of the local community on this issue. Everyone is attached to his or her local health service. For Carrick-on-Suir, this seems to be an extremely personal situation. For example, we heard from the action group of personal experiences with St. Brigid's. I appreciate all of that.

The contribution by Ms Killeen White and her colleagues today has been interesting in that it has provided a little more explanation about the decisions that have been taken. In my questioning at our previous meeting, I had some regard to the HIQA report. Many statements have been made. For example, Ms Killeen White referred today to the "dedication, commitment and excellent care" provided at St. Brigid's. That must be noted. It was also noted in the HIQA report. The action group highlighted that just one or two elements of the report were given as reasons for closure. In the group's eyes, those reasons were not sufficient. According to the information provided by Ms Killeen White and her colleagues today, though, the hospital was not safe in a modern context. Ms Killeen White just told my colleague Deputy Higgins that the hospital was not suitable as a Covid treatment centre. I believe Ms Killeen White stated that one patient had been admitted to it. Now, the hospital has been morphed into a new health centre or hub, as it were.

Ms Killeen White mentioned diabetes and administrative care. Have staff members lost their employment as a result of the changes at St. Brigid's or is the staffing level the same?

Ms Kate Killeen White

There were no job losses associated with the decision to repurpose St. Brigid's. In fact, as part of our enhanced community care programme, which is funded under Sláintecare, we are recruiting into south Tipperary, as we are recruiting across all of our services in south Tipperary.

Is the new centre adjacent to the hospital?

Ms Kate Killeen White

Yes. The primary care centre is right beside the hospital on the same grounds.

In terms of the hospital's reconfiguration and the new services being provided on the campus, what is the short-to-medium-term plan for the building?

Ms Kate Killeen White

St. Brigid's is used as an administrative base and an outreach point for other sites across south Tipperary. There are 24.2 whole-time equivalents, WTEs, based at St. Brigid's, including a range of clinicians and administrative support staff. They work in conjunction with the staff of the primary care centre to deliver services across Carrick-on-Suir and other areas in south Tipperary.

Ms Killeen White mentioned the new 20 palliative care beds. Obviously, they will not be in Tipperary and will instead be located just across the border in, I believe, Waterford. Those services are being availed of.

I am glad to hear someone from the HSE acknowledging the great work being done in palliative care. People would be lost without that care, in particular the outreach programmes. I represent Dún Laoghaire in Dublin. Our local hospice was recently redeveloped, which placed a significant strain on services. Thankfully, Our Lady's Hospice was able to continue providing its excellent care through the outreach service, supplemented by the Wicklow Hospice. At our previous meeting, the action group acknowledged the fantastic care provided to residents and patients at St. Brigid's.

Deputy McGrath has left. I thank the Chair for his intervention in the matter, but it is unfortunate the Deputy would not withdraw the remarks. The Deputy mentioned that, contrary to the Minister of State's comment, the building was less than 200 years of age. I believe he said it was 180 years old. In Ms Killeen White's remarks, though, she referred to 1817, which would make it 206 years old. Is that correct? Was it a workhouse that later became a healthcare facility?

Ms Kate Killeen White

My understanding is that it was first operationalised in 1817.

I wish to ask Mr. Ruane about his involvement. Everyone present is trying to do his or her best. The officials have attended to try to explain what is happening from their perspective, and the committee appreciates that. We have been debating this issue for quite some time and it is good to hear the official side as well as the community side. Unfortunately, I do not believe we will be successful at this meeting in reaching an amicable resolution between the two sides. However, I hope a solution that each views as workable can be found. It will not be easily done.

Mr. Ruane mentioned the plans, and the Chair referenced the floodplain and everything else. What are the plans in the short to medium term for the future prospects of the overall campus? I heard Ms Killeen White talk about the administrative side, diabetic care and everything else. What is the vision for the overall campus in the short to medium term?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

We circulated a drawing showing the site map. If the Deputy looks at the drawing, he will see how much space is required to provide the primary care service identified by our own service. It is a very significant building. It takes up an awful lot of that site, excluding car parking. I assume the operational side is more Ms Killeen White's area. I will then come back to the Deputy.

Ms Kate Killeen White

As part of the reconfiguration of our health services, we are reconfiguring our model of services in the south east and in south Tipperary around what we are classing as the community healthcare network. That network will be the building block for the delivery of services. On top of that, we will develop the chronic disease teams to include pathways of care for respiratory illness, diabetes and cardiac matters, in addition to development of our integrated care programme for older people, ICPOP, teams. That is the direction of travel in the development of community services. As I said, St. Brigid's campus, including the primary care centre and St. Brigid's hospital, are being utilised for the purpose of delivery of our community healthcare services.

I will also mention that the recently built 20-bed south east palliative care centre the Deputy referenced is located on the grounds of University Hospital Waterford. This is the first inpatient and day service specialist palliative care unit. It serves the south-east region, including south Tipperary. That centre will be the hub for palliative care in the south east and will build on the existing consultant-led, integrated model of care in place across acute hospitals and our community healthcare services. Staff based at this centre will support the community specialist palliative care teams the Deputy mentioned, and the primary care teams across the south east, including in south Tipperary.

That is the direction of travel. We are doing everything we can to work with the population in the south east to deliver the kind of care we know people there want in premises that are suitable and in line with our Safer Better Healthcare guidelines, and our regulatory and statutory requirements right across the board. My colleagues, Ms Walsh or Ms McDaid, might like to come in on that.

Ms Helen McDaid

It is important to note that three levels of palliative care are being provided. The 20-bed unit at University Hospital Waterford is level 3, which means staff there have a full-time focus on palliative care. The level 2 service delivered through community services and older persons in the three locations, which totals six beds, is where staff may have a diploma or interest in palliative care but have other duties during the day. What is also important is that level 1 palliative care is more of a generic palliative care piece. All our nursing homes and community services have the ability to take short-stay admissions for a level 1 service. There is availability across the services.

When we talk about the six beds across south Tipperary, we are talking about level-2 specific. Reference was made to one bed being available in St. Anthony's. There have been many discussions and I appreciate there are a lot of asks and requests regarding how many beds there will be. For the record, there will be a minimum of two.

Is that in St. Anthony's?

Ms Helen McDaid

In St. Anthony's in the new build, yes. I stress, however, there will be a requirement to ensure that we have the appropriate medical and operational governance to cover that. This is to ensure we have got the right staffing complement in place to deliver that.

Did Ms McDaid say it would be a minimum, not maximum, of two beds?

Ms Helen McDaid

That is the minimum.

We will try to squeeze another one or two out of the HSE.

No one better than Deputy Cahill. Fair play to him.

I will focus on the holistic care in St. Brigid's itself, and public and private nursing home care. It was referenced in the opening statement that there are 147 HSE beds across four units and 522 private nursing home beds across 13 private providers. Is their use at full capacity at present? How has it been since the restrictions eased? That obviously meant a return to somewhat normal levels.

Ms Kate Killeen White

We have 147 beds in our public units for south Tipperary, as the Deputy described, 96 of which are long stay and 51 of which are what we class as short stay. Throughout south Tipperary we have six palliative care beds, 21 rehab beds, five respite beds and 19 transitional care beds across our units, whether these are in Clogheen, Cluain Arann, St. Anthony's in Clonmel or Cashel. With regard to occupancy, my colleague, Ms McDaid, outlined that we have capacity in our palliative care beds. There is availability and we offer and encourage those who require that kind of service to look for it because there is capacity.

Equally, in the context care of palliative care, we have delivered and developed our services to provide in-home care. As I said, people are choosing to live out the end of their days, sadly, at home. We will facilitate that where we can. There is also the bed base in Waterford, as we described. There is capacity in our palliative care beds and, as I said, 147 beds throughout south Tipperary. In that context, south Tipperary is served well as regards bed space.

I have two final questions. Reference was made to ongoing recruitment. I think the term "24 whole equivalents" was used for existing staff but there are a number of vacancies. The opening statement referenced the fact that the physiotherapist clinical specialist post is currently vacant, as is the senior physiotherapist post. It is no secret that there are gaps in recruitment and retention issues right across the service, as well as issues in trying to recruit the correct staff for the correct locations. How long have the advertised posts been vacant? Are these new or replacement posts? What is their current status?

Ms Kate Killeen White

As I said, as part of our enhanced community care programme we received significant investment to roll out the community healthcare networks and the chronic disease and older persons programmes. These are new posts and there is ongoing recruitment for them. We have several work streams, both national and local, associated with recruitment. We also have the replacement posts, as we call them. When people move on or retire, there is ongoing recruitment to fill those replacement posts. However, it is a challenge, as the Deputy quite rightly pointed out. We will continue all attempts to recruit into our vacant posts.

The new posts are obviously good news. How long have they been advertised?

Ms Kate Killeen White

It depends on the post. If it is for basic grade clinicians, there could be national campaigns, which is ongoing recruitment. There are more specialist recruitment campaigns around more specialist roles. They are ongoing.

Okay. How many of the replacement posts are currently vacant?

Ms Kate Killeen White

Again, that changes on a daily basis and across the south east.

I again thank the witnesses for their contributions. Like others, I have a contribution to make in the Chamber but it has been very worthwhile to get the information. I very much thank the officials for their time. I appreciate it.

I extend a cead míle fálte to Ms Killeen White, Ms McDaid, Ms Walsh and Mr. Ruane. Having listened to some of the opening remarks in my office, I must say well done to them for their clear and concise remarks. I may not agree with everything that was said but I appreciate the clear case that was made. I apologise if some of what I say is repetitive and, therefore, I will accept shorter answers. How many patients were in St. Brigid's Hospital at its peak? Perhaps that detail was included in the opening remarks but I missed some of them.

Ms Kate Killeen White

Before St. Brigid's was repurposed, the hospital had 16 beds. The numbers may have varied over the years but during my time there were 16 beds.

I understand there are 24 staff in the primary care centre beside St. Brigid's on the same campus. Are there now staff in St. Brigid's as well? I know this was clarified but to be clear, what is the total number of staff in the two buildings?

Ms Kate Killeen White

The 24 staff are currently based in St. Brigid's - what was St. Brigid's Hospital - and there are also staff located in the primary care centre. I can get back to the Senator with a specific number for whole-time equivalent or WTE staff.

No, that is fine. Respite care has been referred to and the witnesses answered most of the queries I had when responding to Deputy Devlin. Where do those who used to go to St. Brigid's for respite go now? There is no deficit in care as there is plenty of local respite care.

Ms Kate Killeen White

The people of Carrick-on-Suir can access palliative care, respite and short-stay services in Cluain Árann in Tipperary town or in Cashel or in St. Anthony's in Clonmel. As I outlined, we have capacity in palliative care at the moment.

The excellent centre in University Hospital Waterford has been mentioned. I am from Roscommon and Roscommon University Hospital has an outstanding unit but it just has not opened yet for palliative care. The same is happening in County Mayo through the Mayo Roscommon Hospice Foundation. All that is excellent and it is the way to go. The buildings are just amazing and I presume it is the same in Monaghan.

I assume we all agree that trying to reconfigure 200-year-old buildings is a difficult challenge. Roscommon University Hospital lost its accident and emergency unit but we managed to get some new facilities and the hospital is going well. There were many things we could not do because it was such an old building. I ask the witnesses to point out some of the challenges that arise in old buildings. What cannot be done in terms of reconfiguration?

Ms Kate Killeen White

As I said, shortcomings were identified in St. Brigid's before Covid and they would have included the two five-bed units. I appreciate that some changes were made there to try to achieve compliance. Physical distancing, and having sufficient space between beds, are important to enable the occupants of the beds to go about their business in a way that was private to them. It is also important to have sufficient space between beds to enable caregivers, nurses, doctors or allied health professionals to provide care in a safe and effective way. The whole country came to a standstill with Covid and the infection, prevention and control guidance really brought to the fore the challenges we have in St. Brigid's.

At any stage of the Covid crisis, was consideration given to having a lesser number of beds rather then closing the facility completely?

Ms Kate Killeen White

We discussed the three palliative care beds earlier. One cannot single out beds in a building such as St. Brigid's. One needs to look at the viability of the building as a whole, which is what we did. There are multiple factors involved, whether they are regulatory requirements, statutory requirements or the infection, prevention and control requirements. Budgetary requirements and value for money would all be considered in the context of the decision-making around repurposing St. Brigid's.

This type of issue has arisen all over the country and it upsets communities. Mr. Ruane spoke about the ideal solution for Carrick-on-Suir. The HSE and maybe politicians should ensure that before facilities are fully removed, replacement facilities are in place. Modern buildings are more energy efficient and will generate savings in the long run. It would solve a lot of issues if people knew what the HSE was going to replace a building with or have a replacement building under way before a facility is closed.

I thank the witnesses for attending and giving direct answers. I sympathise with the community. I can understand how communities get upset as these things have happened in my own area. Maybe we should look for a better way forward all around.

Deputy Cahill has an office on the same corridor as me and has spoken to me about this matter because I am a member of the joint committee. I wish everybody well and I hope we can get a new building for Carrick-on-Suir.

We have heard about Clogheen again and Senator Murphy brought it up. As I said, Clogheen is 45 km from Carrick-on-Suir and Tipperary town is 61 km from Carrick-on-Suir. We are not like the big urban areas or cities where a person can jump on a bus or Luas tram. That creates problems. As Senator Craughwell said, we all have people who have received palliative care and it takes a few minutes to get to them. If someone living in a small town such as Carrick-on-Suir or the area covered by the town - south Kilkenny, north Waterford and south Tipperary - gets a phone call to say a loved one is on the way out, trying to travel 45 km or 60 km to reach the family member is like trying to reach the moon. There is a fear that family members are being moved so far away from family. We have heard so much in recent years about care in the community. One of the biggest problems with this closure is that it is the opposite of care in the community. I do not care what way the HSE, HIQA or the Minister for Health paint this decision, they may as well take everything as move a service that has served three counties 45 km or 60 km away.

An issue that continually arises, but has not been raised today, is that the dimensions of corridors have been deemed too narrow. Ms Killeen White did not mention corridors in her opening statement. We now hear the corridors are too narrow but the issue was not important enough to be included in the opening statement as one of the reasons used to close down the facility. Where is the report by an engineer or someone else stating the corridors were too narrow and widening them would give rise to massive expense?

Ms Kate Killeen White

My apologies. With regard to the corridor, that is visible on the map itself. In the context of a Covid environment where we were all operating to a 2 m or 1 m rule, it was very obvious the main corridor in St. Brigid's was simply not wide enough to enable the physical and social distancing that was required.

As mentioned earlier, in all the big hospitals we have trolleys lined up on both sides of corridors. The corridor in St. Brigid's is like a runway in an airport when compared with the environment in which people are asked to work in hospitals. If that is not a problem, it is a case of what is good for the goose is good for the gander. There are no trolleys in corridors in St. Brigid's and if its corridors are deemed to be too narrow for health and safety reasons, surely the HSE should close down places that have trolleys on both sides of corridors and trolleys can be barely squeezed through them?

Ms Kate Killeen White

In the context of the petition concerning St. Brigid's, visually one could see that the corridor was a challenge. From the perspective of infection, prevention and control, the corridor did not allow for the social distancing required at the time of Covid-19 and beyond. There were challenges associated with that, and also with evacuation requirements, particularly in the event of a fire and space to enable a bed to be moved from one area to another. My colleague, Mr. Ruane, has already outlined that in the context of compartmentalisation.

It is unfortunate this decision had to be made. I equally acknowledge Senator Murphy's position in relation to the community. It is very difficult but we have to deliver safe and effective care. We have to put the patient at the centre. We need to consider the premises in which our staff work. Unfortunately, when it came to St. Brigid's, it was simply a case that the building posed too many challenges and risks in the context of delivering the kind of care we would wish to deliver in 2023.

What has come across clearly today is that all the decisions on closing St. Brigid's have been based on opinions. As Chair of the committee, I propose the HSE comes back with consultant or engineer reports on the corridors and wards so that we can see where the decisions were made, because we have not received them so far. Everything is just opinion. As I said earlier, I could have an opinion on the runways in Dublin Airport but that does not mean I am able to run Dublin Airport.

It was admitted that no costings were given in comparing like with like for a new building or the refurbishment of St. Brigid's. Can we get something with which we can compare the decision the HSE took to where we are now? That is where the frustration is. The people in Carrick-on-Suir and the surrounding catchment area of St. Brigid's always ask where the report is that contains the decisions that were made to take this service out of their location. This is at a time when all we hear about is community care. We all appreciate more people are staying at home, but there are people and families for whom this is not a possibility. That is where hospitals like St. Brigid's, small care units with palliative beds, are priceless to a community.

It is not just affecting County Tipperary. We are talking about three counties. It is not as simple as moving patients to Clogheen or elsewhere in Tipperary or Waterford. There is no public transport system in the smaller, regional towns such as Carrick-on-Suir. It is not just a black-and-white case of closing down the hospital and telling people to use public transport.

We want to see any such reports and ask that they be furnished to the committee. We will look at them and decide where we go from there. There are an awful lot of answers we still have not got, even after today, about the decisions that were made.

Ms Kate Killeen White

We will work with individual families, as we do across all our services, if there are individual challenges presenting for any particular family. Absolutely, we will send the committee the HIQA reports. In the Covid environment, when we were all working to 1 m and 2 m rules, the evidence was facing us and we knew the right thing to do was to repurpose St. Brigid's in the context of the delivery of safe care.

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

In answer to the question about the reports, it is not as though there are a lot of reports on this that we are trying to hide.

The problem seems to be there are no reports. We as a committee and as individual members have looked for reports and we are not getting them. We are asking to be shown even one report showing decisions were made, not opinions. Services such as these cannot be taken out of an area based on opinion alone. There must have been decisions made by the HSE, a working group, or whatever it is called that went through a consultant's report, after which a decision was made. On whose opinion was this based? Was there a group telling you to come to the same opinion? Who overrode everyone else's opinion and decided to close St. Brigid's?

Mr. Ciarán Ruane

These are two totally separate issues. First, as far as the estates unit is concerned, they are not connected. We were trying to do an assessment to see what we could do with this building and we never got a satisfactory solution. I refer to the footprint of the site in the drawing. We highlighted in red what we felt needed to be put in. The development fits on the site on paper and it shows the minimum area that would be required, but the garden would be lost. In addition, we do not know what type of access would be needed coming around the side. To give the committee an idea of scale, the drawing shows the small site we would be left to work with. We never did a costing for that because we never got to a situation of having a layout we were happy with that would work and meet the standard. That is why there were no costings.

Ms Kate Killeen White

As I said earlier, the challenges were there before Covid. They are there post Covid and that is the reason we repurposed St. Brigid's. I reiterate that St. Brigid's is a functioning building. The doors have not been closed. It is operational and that is important. It has been repurposed. The decisions were made based on a multitude of factors, including the regulatory landscape, statutory landscape, infection prevention and control landscape and, most importantly, the requirement to deliver safe services in a manner that upholds the dignity and privacy of the patient requiring the service. That is the reason the decisions were made in regard to St. Brigid's, in addition to the challenges presenting.

I do not doubt that for one minute, but I also do not doubt that the multitude of people who used St. Brigid's down through the years never raised an issue of privacy, such as five beds on a ward needing to be cut to four beds. They were happy. Their families and the community were happy that a top-class service was being provided by top-class staff. That has been stripped away from them with them having to travel 40 km to 60 km away.

Ms Kate Killeen White

I understand that.

Private nursing home beds seem to be the solution to all of this. This community raised money for doors, windows and anything else that was needed in Carrick-on-Suir. The money was raised by them for that hospital-----

-----and now it is being completely ripped away from them.

The Cathaoirleach asked several times about reports and how the decision was made without reports being done. Could the committee be provided with the minutes of the meetings where the closure of St. Brigid's was discussed, in particular the meeting in which the final decision was taken to close the hospital? I presume it was discussed at a few meetings within the HSE. There must be a copy of these minutes. If there are no reports, the committee is entitled to get a copy of the minutes. We will see the exact content of the discussion on the closure and the various opinions given at the meetings. Is that okay?

Yes, I have no problem with that.

I thank Ms Killeen White, Ms McDaid, Mr. Ruane and Ms Walsh for coming before the committee. It has been beneficial. We have got a certain amount of information, but I am still not convinced that we know everything of the decisions that went on behind the scenes to close this hospital. It is to be hoped we will get the consultant's report or, as Deputy Cahill requested, even the minutes of the meetings so that we can get a clearer picture of why this was done. We thank the witnesses for coming. I now suspended the meeting to allow them an opportunity to leave the committee room.

Sitting suspended at 3.58 p.m. and resumed at 4.01 p.m.
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