I propose that the Dáil adjourn for one week. We are still dealing with the question of compensation and many other questions that we find it very difficult to straighten out. I do not know that we would be in a position to put anything before the Dáil for the next couple of days, so that I would ask an adjournment for a week.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE DÁIL.
I second the motion.
I think this is deserving of some protest. I think the idea of being called together just for one day to deal with these two resolutions of the Ministry, and then adjourn for another week, is hardly fair to the Dáil. We understood there was likely to be a week's adjournment required to prepare certain business, and we understood, too, that business would be ready for dealing with day by day from now forward. Men have come up from the country. Of course, they are in duty bound to do so, but it seems to be treating us rather with levity, asking us to come up for one half-day's business and then adjourn for another week, without having any indication of what the business is to be next week. I would at least appeal to Ministers to give us some indication, three or four days before the resumption, as to what business will be brought forward, so that we would have an opportunity of considering the matter before it is placed on the Order Paper, and also give us some idea as to how long meetings will last after they are resumed.
I would prefer to adjourn for a fortnight, but I understood it was the wish of the Deputies opposite to meet once a week. I would much prefer a fortnight's adjournment, as really one cannot get through much work in a week. If Deputy Johnson wishes, I will extend my motion to a fortnight.
I shall not do anything of the kind. We shall put down motions on our own account. If we are not to be brought here for the sake of formally meeting, we will have to try and make business. I understood the Dáil was under the leadership of the President, and that he would see that the Dáil was provided with business. If we are not going to have that leadership, then we shall have to put forward our own propositions, and force discussions on all kinds of motions.
It is the business of an opposition to oppose and to a certain extent to criticise, but let us keep our eye on the fact that Parliament is for the country and for the doing of the business of the country, and that there is no intrinsic virtue in coming here and talking. It is the doing of the business that counts and in times like the present it is and must be a question of having a sense of proportion, and we ought to be the best judges as to whether we are doing the urgent and vital work of the country, whether it be here or in the supervision of our departments, or in the supervision of the one hundred or the one thousand different important things that require to be done and done urgently. We called this meeting because we considered that it was necessary to have these resolutions passed to-day by the Parliament, but the work of administration is at the moment more important than the work of discussion here, and we should get an opportunity of doing that work. Some of us are at the heads of Departments that were not taken over from the British. There were no corresponding Departments here before, and those Departments at the moment have to be built up, consolidated and put on their way, and we cannot do that if we are to come here day after day and listen to a certain amount of rhetoric.
The President stated that the fact was that the Dáil should be adjourned for a fortnight. I have conferred with some of my colleages and it seems to me and to them that it would be better to adjourn for a fortnight rather than meet again next week and sit for one day. I suggest to the President if it would be of any advantage to the Ministry—and we understand how pressed they are for time for going into all the questions that must be met—that they adopt the idea.
We cannot agree to the suggestion that has been made that the Dáil should adjourn. We cannot regard as at all satisfactory the statement made by the Minister for Home Affairs, because every argument he put forward would justify the adjournment of the Dáil for an indefinite period. What we want to ask is this, is there no urgent business that requires to be done? What about the Electoral Bill? And again, will some representative of the Ministry tell us what is the programme for the next two or three weeks? What are the subjects? In what order will those subjects be taken, and when will they be brought up? Surely we are entitled to ask that.
The motion is to adjourn for a week.
In reply to a point raised by Deputy O'Brien, the most urgent business that lies before this Dáil is business in the nature of legislation, and that business cannot be undertaken until the Constitution comes into operation, so that all the business this Dáil will have to do—the real, urgent part— must be postponed until the Constitution comes into operation. We are at work at the moment on an Electoral Bill. It is not in a condition that it can be brought before the Dáil, although the first draft is made, and the Dáil will not be in a position to consider it at the moment; the Dáil can really only do a limited range of business. It can only do such things as it can do by resolution, and resolutions dealing with many of the matters that people would like to deal with would not be effective. Resolutions that will be effective are those of the nature that have something to do with the domestic politics of the Dáil. Anything of that kind can be dealt with by resolution, but things requiring legislative changes cannot be. Authorisations can be given to the Ministers, if necessary, in a large number of legislative changes, but the fact is that the most important section of the business of the Parliament—legislation—is held up at the moment. There is a good argument against postponement. Matters of urgent public importance may arise, and it is not desirable that the Dáil should be postponed. Then there is a possibility that some criticism may be required. There is a possibility that someone may want to question Ministers with regard to the administration of their Departments. It is not desirable that Deputies should be deprived of that privilege. On the other hand, it is rather in the nature of a waste of time to have a general discussion, because these resolutions have not actual effect in the way of having a compelling effect of any sort, and it would not be desirable to have the Dáil discussing at length all sorts of matters and resolutions which it might ignore afterwards if it came to pass the resolution.
In view of the pronouncement made by the Ministry, if they cannot give a guarantee that the Dáil will sit all next week there is no use coming up here. It is all very well for men from the city, but to come up from the country is a different matter. If you are going to meet only for a day next week, I suggest you adjourn for a fortnight. There are no trains running from some parts of the country and it is no pleasure to come up here at all. It is hard work. I suggest that the Dáil should adjourn for a fortnight.
I support that because it gives the Deputies an excellent opportunity during the recess to denounce the Government for neglect of their duties. Now, if we have no definite business to transact, why should we assemble? If we are going to see some effort being made to make business, well, I think it is simply make-believe. We are simply then a debating society, and we are lowering the status of the Dáil, so I think there is a great deal to be said from the point of view of the Ministry. They are engaged in a task of tremendous difficulty in building up their Departmental work, and every man knows, who has private business to attend to, what a day off means, and when the Ministers are dealing with matters vital to the Nation's life you can realise what a tremendous thing it is by listening to what the Minister for Home Affairs has said. I think if the Ministry has no real business this day week it should consider an adjournment for a fortnight. If Deputy Johnson has got something for this day week, he will be able to get twice as much for this day fortnight.
I may say that we do not accept the position put forward that this Parliament cannot enact any legislation. There is no reason why important measures should not be advanced. We do not accept the position that has been put forward. I believe we have a resolution of the Dáil to that effect. Now, as to the question of business, if the Government has no business to put forward, or, as Deputy Milroy described it, no real business, I can promise that from these benches we will put forward practical proposals and items of real business if we get an opportunity of carrying them through. If the Government has nothing to put forward then we will have something, and it will not be for the sake of talking that we will put those things forward. Then there are questions of criticism—useful criticism of Departmental work. It is very necessary and useful to my mind that we should have an opportunity, by questioning, of criticising work of various departments and finding out what is being done. I am totally opposed to the proposal that we should have an adjournment for a fortnight, or even for a week.
I am surprised at the speech of Deputy O'Connell. Usually he is fairly sensible, if he will accept the compliment from me. When he says that they do not accept the position that this Constituent Assembly cannot legislate, I am naturally surprised. I thought we had accepted the Treaty and that we passed a Constitution, and I thought there was certain machinery in that Constitution for pasing legislation. I think it is a fact that that machinery is not yet brought into being. Yet, Deputy O'Connell gets up and suggests that we can start legislation straight away.
May I suggest that the Minister would read the Order in Council?
What is the point the Deputy is making? I am pointing out that there is a practical difficulty. We accepted the Treaty, we passed the Constitution, we laid down certain machinery for passing legislation. That machinery is not in operation, and yet we are told we can use machinery although it is not in operation. We are forced into a most extraordinary position here. It would appear as if we had nothing else to do, and that we are burning to have a meeting of Parliament; that we are endeavouring to get a meeting, let us say, next week, because we have nothing else to do. If the Parliament did not meet for the next two months we could be working twelve hours a day, and we might not have our tasks finished. We are in no hurry about a meeting of Parliament. We regard the work which we have to do in our offices— work in connection with the taking over of services of the country from the English—as more important than any discussions which cannot lead to anything until the machinery for legislation is completed. I think that is a perfectly understandable position. We are not exactly in normal times. Even if things were perfectly normal Parliament would adjourn for a certain time. In addition to all the work which we have to do as heads of departments, we have all the work which is necessary in order to get over essential services from the English, to scheme departments, and to do a thousand and one things so as to bring the Treaty into operation. I would certainly be in favour of adjourning for a fortnight.
I rise to support the proposal to adjourn for a fortnight, when we have no real business to do. Before the motion is put I would like, on a matter of information, to ask the Ministry whether they have made any progress in the formation of the two Commissions that were promised. The Commissions I refer to are the Cost of Food Commission and the Electoral Abuses Commission. Have those Commissions been formed, or has any progress been made in connection with their formation?
With regard to the Electoral Abuses Commission, I have already asked some people to act. I am asking a few others to-day or to-morrow. I would say that the membership of the Commission will be complete within a few days. I have already arranged for the Secretarial side of the work.
From a democratic standpoint I would say that the different sections of the Dáil ought to have an opportunity to put their own people on these Commissions, and not have anybody going around asking them. I do not like that. For instance, the Labour Party ought to have the selection of their own representatives, and we of the Farmers' Party insist on the right to have the selection of our own representative.
There is a Commission in connection with the dismissed and resigned policemen—that is, policemen who were dismissed or who resigned between January 1919 and the Truce. I am setting up such a Commission, and I think it right that the Dáil should know the proposed constitution of it. There will be two representatives of the ex-policemen; there will be one representative of the Home Affairs Department; one representative of the Finance Department; and one representative of the Army. In addition there will be the Chairman, as to whom we have not yet finally decided, but who, I think, will be acceptable.
Any representative of the Dáil?
No; it is a kind of Departmental Committee rather than a Parliamentary Commission. Its report will be made available for the Dáil and for discussion, if necessary.
The motion before the Dáil is that we adjourn for a week.
I beg to propose as an amendment that the Dáil adjourns for a fortnight, and I do that so as to put the matter in order.
I second that amendment.
I will accept the amendment. I think that the Deputies opposite slightly misunderstand what the position is. We had certainly two Departments not constructed until practically the Dáil had met; these are the Home Affairs and Finance Departments. There were reasons in each case why much work had not been done during the six months up to the end of June, and there was a reason why nothing was done from the 28th June until the 9th September. With regard to the Finance Department, we have the service, that is to say we have the money, but we have not got the officials. The arrangement of Departments such as those is a matter which takes a very considerable length of time. It means many journeys to and from London by our officials. It means the setting up of machinery such as we have not had, and of which we have had no experience in this country. With regard to the other Department, the Deputies opposite know by reason of the amount of work done and the proposals brought forward before the Dáil, that that Department is showing remarkable signs of expansion and is restoring order and normal conditions throughout the country. There is another Department which has not come over as far as its service is concerned or in regard to its personnel. Steps have to be taken and visits have been made to London for the scheming of that Department. Those are matters which one cannot do within a few days. There is another matter which I expect to be able to bring up before the Dáil in a fortnight's time, and that is the Estimates. We have not got the details in print. We have them in figures, but they are not yet printed, and they will take careful consideration before they are presented to the Dáil in proper order. It does not mean that because we have no business ready that we are bankrupt of any business. I think that the Deputies may be satisfied that as far as human ingenuity, physique and resources can go we are delivering here to the Dáil as much business as can be reasonably expected and that there is no slacking going on that I or that any of the Ministers know of. A reasonable delay is rendered necessary in the abnormal circumstances of the time; and the the abnormal sort of administration that we have had to construct as well as to administer.
This motion for an adjournment for a fortnight might as well be followed by a motion for an adjournment indefinitely, until Ministers think that they ought to bring matters before the Dáil. One would imagine that there had been no discussion at an earlier part of this session on the powers of this Dáil. The Minister for Agriculture simply talks to us as though the question of the power of this Dáil to legislate had not been decided by the Dáil. It was decided with the approval of the Ministry that the powers of the Dáil are equal to the powers of the Parliament under the Treaty. Now, the Minister denies that we have that power to legislate.
Not at all.
Well, then, we have power to legislate. We have power to enact legislation for the twenty-six Counties. The Minister shakes his head and says we have not. Where are we? The Dáil decided that we had power, and we have been hoping that the Dáil would exercise that right. The trouble seems to me to be that we are still being treated as a body of people to whom the Ministry may come when they wish to have certain decisions ratified, not as a legislative assembly at all. One would think that there was no legislation required in the country, that everything was brought up to date and that you might adjourn for a week or a fortnight or a month or six months, because everything was perfect. I do not think the country believes that. At least since January Ministers have had the reins of power in their hands, and they have not been subject to the criticism that they might have been subject to from the Dáil. We had a right to expect that they had proposals for legislation in a fairly advanced form when the Dáil met in September. But now it is suggested that we should adjourn for a fortnight. I am sure that if somebody said a month, the majority of the Dáil would agree to it. That is the feeling. We have very serious administrative matters to be brought forward. The country is not satisfied with the administration, and the country is not satisfied with the conduct of the prisons, and the country is not satisfied with the conduct of the military forces, nor with the conduct of many things, and it is necessary that these should be brought under review. And we have been hoping that the initiative would come in many of these matters from the Ministerial benches. It seems that we are forced to take an attitude that we have no desire to take, and to become definitely and obstinately an Opposition. I do not know whether the Ministers intend that, or want to challenge us to take that position. But it seems to me that that is the implication of their present attitude. We are told now that there is nothing to be done because we have nothing ready, and that they must get on with the administrative work, which means, of course, that Ministers, whom nobody denies are working very hard, are working as heads of Departments and not as Ministers. Consequently they had not the time to deal with legislative matters. I feel that in this matter the Dáil is anxious to get away from any responsibility. We have seen for the last two months that, so far as any critical faculty is concerned, at any rate it has been left to a comparatively small number, and the majority of the Dáil want to get away and leave matters in the hands of Ministers, and let them do what they like, and report to the Dáil when they like what has been done. That is not a satisfactory state of things, and I am personally certain the country generally will resent it.
I would like to make the position clear. The Dáil has power to legislate, and a full meeting of the Dáil can be called. At the present moment you can repudiate the Treaty if you are prepared to take the consequences. It is merely a question of consequences. As long as the Dáil accepts the Treaty it accepts the machinery set up by the Treaty.
Read the Agreement Act.
As long as the Dáil accepts the Treaty, and the Constitution, it must accept the machinery set up by both. Deputy Johnson spoke of adjourning for a month, and the Dáil, he said, would be quite satisfied to do so; I think the country would like to see the Dáil adjourning for a month. What the country would like is for the Dáil to adjourn and give the Government a free hand for restoring order. That is what the country wants, and I stand for that. However, in order to meet Deputy Johnson and the other Deputies who think that they should have recurring chances of criticising the Government—and they are perfectly entitled to think that—we are quite willing to accept the Amendment that the Dáil should adjourn for fortnight.
It is perhaps time once for all, that we should have done with this question of the powers of the Dáil to legislate and about that resolution that was passed. The resolution was proposed by Deputy Johnson in the first instance, because he had not taken the trouble to read the Free State Agreement Act, or if he did read it, he did not read it with any care, and did not take the trouble to see what it means. In the Free State Agreement Act it is laid down that the people elected for constituencies in the Twenty-Six Counties shall constitute the House of the Parliament to which the Provisional Government is responsible. It does not say that that House of the Parliament shall have power to legislate. It says that "Parliament shall have power to legislate"—that means, that there is a question involved of the Royal Assent. There is no power in this Dáil to legislate without the Royal Assent; so far as the Free State Agreement Act goes, that is the only power it has, unless it chooses to exercise the inherent, inalienable and indefeasible power it has to repudiate the Treaty. There is no power unless we choose now to have this Royal Assent given, other than the manner that we laid down in our own Constitution, and we are not prepared to do that. And consequently for all practical purposes the Dáil had not the power.
Now we have got the real reason, for the first time.
Absolutely clear for anybody who likes to read it.
I have heard Deputies here talk about what the country wants. Now, I come from the country. I have been in touch with the people of the country, and a great deal of them want work, and they do not want this gabbling and hot air that used to obtain in the late Dáil and a considerable amount of it in this Dáil. Gentlemen think they cut a very pretty figure in the Press in the discussions here. They do not; and the people do not care two pins about them. They want less talk and want you to get on with the work. Deputy Johnson may think that he is a very able man, but the people do not think so. A lot of the stuff here is gas and hot air.
I intended to move an amendment before Deputy Johnson spoke, and it is that this Dáil should adjourn for a month in order to give Ministers plenty of opportunity of getting everything over from the British Empire to Ireland; but there is another matter also. If we adjourn for a month it will give this Dáil four days' work to do. We will continue to Friday, and by that time the Ministers and the Deputies may have made up their minds that we should continue, or that we adjourn until the 6th of December, when we will have proper legal authority and not be a debating society, as has been stated. I therefore propose that this Dáil do adjourn for a month.
Amendment put:—"That the Dáil do adjourn for a fortnight."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 34; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
- Donchadh Ó Guaire.
- Uáitéar Mac Cumhaill.
- Seán Ó Maolruaidh.
- Seán Ó Duinnín.
- Seán Mac Haol.
- Domhnall Ó Mocháin.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Ailfrid Ó Broin.
- Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Earnán Altún.
- Sir Séamus Craig.
- Gearóid Mac Giobúin.
- Liam Thrift.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Pádraig Ó hOgáin.
- Pádraic Ó Máille.
- Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Criostóir Ó Broin.
- Ristéard Mac Liam.
- Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.
- Tomas Mac Artúir.
- Séamus Ó Dóláin.
- Proinsias Mag Aonghusa.
- Peadar Ó hAodha.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Uinseann de Faoite.
- Domhnall Ó Broin.
- Séamus de Burca.
- Micheál Ó Dubhghaill.
Níl
- Pádraig Mac Gamhna.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh.
- Darghal Figes.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Liam Ó Briain.
- Tomás Ó Conaill.
- Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.
- Séamus Éabhróid.
- Seán Ó Laidhin.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Nioclás Ó Faoláin
- Domhnall Ó Muirgheasa
- Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin
|
Tá. |
Níl. |
|
Liam T. Mac Cosgair.Donchadh Ó Guaire.Uáitéar Mac Cumhaill.Seán Ó Maolruaidh.Seán Ó Duinnín.Seán Mac Haol.Domhnall Ó Mocháin.Séamus Breathnach.Ailfrid Ó Broin.Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.Earnán Altún.Sir Séamus Craig.Gearóid Mac Giobúin.Liam Thrift.Eoin Mac Néill.Liam Mag Aonghusa.Pádraig Ó hOgáin.Pádraic Ó Máille.Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.Seoirse Mac Niocaill.Criostóir Ó Broin.Ristéard Mac Liam.Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.Tomas Mac Artúir.Séamus Ó Dóláin.Proinsias Mag Aonghusa.Peadar Ó hAodha.Liam Mac Sioghaird.Earnán de Blaghd.Uinseann de Faoite.Domhnall Ó Broin.Séamus de Burca.Micheál Ó Dubhghaill. |
Pádraig Mac Gamhna.Tomás de Nógla.Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh.Darghal Figes.Tomás Mac Eoin.Liam Ó Briain.Tomás Ó Conaill.Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.Séamus Éabhróid.Seán Ó Laidhin.Seán Buitléir.Nioclás Ó FaoláinDomhnall Ó MuirgheasaDomhnall Ó Ceallacháin |
Amendment, put as a substantive motion.
Agreed.
The Dáil adjourned at 6.20.