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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Mar 1923

Vol. 2 No. 41

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - CRIMINAL AND MALICIOUS INJURIES BILL—MONEY RESOLUTION.

The Dáil went into Committee on the Money resolution of the Criminal and Malicious Injuries Bill.

I beg to move:—

"That for carrying out the provisions of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to Criminal and Malicious Injuries, it is expedient that the authority mentioned in the resolution on this subject adopted by the Committee on Finance on the 22nd February last be extended so as to cover—

"(1) The substitution in the said resolution of a reference to the 20th day of March, 1923, for the reference to the 6th day of February, 1923, and"—that is, the time that has already generally been extended—

"(2) The payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of such amounts as may be required to be paid for the purpose of any agreements made pursuant to such Act between the Minister for Finance and any Railway Company or Companies."

I take it, it is unnecessary for me to mention that there will be no further extension than what is indicated here— namely, the 20th day of March, 1923 That is the final day.

I desire to move as an amendment the deletion of Clause (2) of the resolution which has been moved by the President. We are asked under the terms of this clause of the resolution to vote away, perhaps, or hundreds of thousands of pounds, or perhaps even millions of money, from State funds for the purpose of carrying out the terms of an agreement which has neither been explained to the Dáil nor to the people. However much we may regret the necessity for having to make provision for the destruction of the lines of communication in this country, and being forced at the same time to make such provision, I think there is one purpose that will be served, and that is perhaps to make quite clear to the people of the State who are called upon to pay such huge amounts of money out of their pockets for stupid and senseless destruction done in this country that it is calculated to injure more than anybody else the non-combatant section of the community. I am always careful, personally, when any agreement is being made with the railway companies or railway magnates— especially where money is concerned and where people are called upon to pay— that it should be made quite clear what are the conditions governing such agreement.

(At this stage An Leas Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.)

This clause does call for the payment out of State funds for specific purposes, namely, for the making of provision for the rebuilding of the lines and the restoration of wagons or engines that may have been destroyed as a result of the destructive policy engaged upon and that has been going on since last June or July. I want, in any agreement made, where Irish funds are being paid over to any railway magnates, that the purpose for which the money is paid out will be made quite clear before any of that money is paid; that it will be spent in this country and not in English workshops. We also want to have it made quite clear that any bridges that may be rebuilt will be rebuilt so as to cope with enlarged and increased traffic, particularly over the main roads, that may arise in this country in the future. I thought it necessary to personally bring under the notice of the Minister for Industry and Commerce the failure of the Great Southern and Western Railway to rebuild any of the bridges that had been destroyed in their area since the destruction commenced last June or July. They have persistently taken up the attitude of point blank refusing to meet any request made to them by the present Government. The result of one particular instance that I have in my mind is that of a certain county boundary bridge—the company refused to reconstruct or rebuild that bridge in an area where for some time past there has been no Irregular activity; and the failure of the company to rebuild this particular bridge means that the communication between two very important towns in two different counties are cut off since June or July last. I do not know whether any of these things have been mentioned to the railway companies or their officers by the President, or any member of the Government, in discussing the terms of agreement under which these huge sums of money are to be paid to the companies. I would like, on the question of rebuilding, to know whether the question of increased traffic has been taken into consideration. I am personally aware that in many instances where destruction has been done to railway property it has been welcomed for many reasons by the railway companies themselves. We have had it in the case of railway stations where originally there existed two signal cabins. The Great Southern and Western Railway Company in restoring the damage only built one signal cabin where two originally existed. And in the case of the saving of labour, that means doing away with the position of three signalmen alone. I wonder if any saving effected in such a case as that is taken into consideration by the Government when discussing the terms of settlement.

I also particularly wish to draw the attention of the Government to the position of the future of the Irish railways arising out of a statement made in this Dáil in a Debate which occurred here on the 3rd January last. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking, as he said, for the Government on that occasion, stated:—

"The future of the Irish railways has been uncertain ever since August, 1921. In the view that the country cannot afford to allow the question to drift any longer, the companies have been informed that if they do not produce an agreed scheme of grouping such as the Government can approve within three months from the 1st January, 1923, legislation will be introduced with the object of bringing about unification within a period of six months from that date. Such legislation would require to include provision for dealing with rates, fares and charges, with machinery for avoiding disputes and for consultation with the employees on matters concerning them, and with many other matters on which existing legislation is not adequate or satisfactory." [Official Report—January 3rd, 1923—Col. 433].

Now that undertaking expires at the end of the present month, and probably before the passing of this Bill or any other Bill as makes provision for the payment of monies out of State funds, will become operative. I want to make sure that any money voted to Irish railway companies will not be utilised on or after the 1st of April for legalising an agreement which would make the port of Dublin a third rate port, in place of what it should be—the principal port in the country. I warn the Government that agreements have been made, and some have been signed, which if approved of would make Dublin a third rate port.

We have, from previous knowledge and experience, seen what occurred in the case of the British Government when a sum of three million pounds was voted away under the Claims and Settlement Bill for the specific purpose of deferred maintenance. If you read the reports of the recent annual meetings of the Irish railway companies, you will see that this money was set aside for the purpose of maintaining pre-war dividends, instead of using it for the purpose for which it was voted—namely, to make provision for deferred maintainance. I warn you to see that any money you are going to vote away for a certain specific purpose under this Bill will not be used for a different purpose altogether, as happened in the case I have just referred to. I also wish to bring under the notice of the Government the question of having an understanding with the railway companies, when agreement is arrived at, as regards making reasonable and suitable provision for the dependants of those who have been killed or injured in carrying on essential railway services since June or July last. It has been stated to me that railway companies are responsible to the dependants of those who have been killed or injured under the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act, but, I put it to the Dáil that men who have been doing this particular class of work under extraordinary difficulties should be provided for under the terms that are more satisfactory than the provision made for them under the Workmen's Compensation Act. I also wish to draw the attention of the President and the Government to the fact that the railway companies have very reluctantly agreed, and in most cases have refused altogether, to open up any works that have been closed down since this war started in June or July last. They are going around the country with an economy stunt which, under very abnormal conditions, means, as you know, the cutting down of labour, and the cutting down of all classes of expenses, and you have this at a time when conditions are not normal, and when such things should not be going on. I have been told, but I cannot say it is exactly true, that they have received such instructions from the Government. I hope the statement is not correct. I move the deletion of the clause, because, as I have stated, there has been no reasonable explanation given to the Dáil, or to the people, as to the terms of the agreement under which we are asked to vote away huge sums of money. I hope, before this clause is passed by the Dáil, that a reasonable explanation will be given to the Dáil and the people who will be called upon to pay the huge sums of money voted out of the public funds.

The rejection of this money resolution, in effect, will mean, first, that the railway companies will get no compensation, and, secondly, that no repairs and no reconstruction of bridges and no ordinary maintenance of that particular service, can be undertaken by any of the railway companies in question. They are excluded so far from the terms of this Bill. There is an amendment before the Dáil for consideration to-day, or at least it will come on when the succeeding stages of the Bill are taken, which indicates what the proposals are that the Government had in contemplation for remedying the damage done to the railway companies. Now, as far as I am aware, they are placed in the position in which claims for compensation made by them are subjected to close investigation by the Government. That matter will come on before the Dáil when we reach that particular amendment or clause dealing with compensation to railways. It will be observed that the resolution here is to provide for the payment of moneys for the purpose of any agreement made pursuant to such Act; that is, the particular Act, so that, in essence, it comes to this that even if this resolution were passed and that the Dáil rejects the amendment there would not be any arrangements come to between the Government, on the one hand, and the railway companies, on the other; and consequently there would not be any authority as far as I know—I am speaking now within the law—to discharge such liability. It is right to say this, that we have already paid on account to at least one railway company some money; otherwise it might have been impossible for that particular concern to have gone on with the work. That is a case in which repairs had been effected and money spent. Now they are not in any worse position than anybody else whose property has been damaged. The mere fact that we have disputes, or that there are disputes of one sort or another with railway companies, either on the part of the people whom the Deputy speaks for or represents, or, in so far as any Government policy with regard to the railways themselves are concerned, does not alter the fact that we have got to deal justly and fairly with these important organisations. Their property has been damaged to a very considerable extent, and their co-operation must be sought and must be got, in order to repair the damage done, and to enable them to carry on the necessary services for the public. For that purpose they are entitled just the same as any other person whose property has been damaged, to compensation. The terms under which such compensation will be paid to them are, in my opinion, sufficiently restricted and sufficiently protected, as far as we are concerned, regarding the public funds, to entitle the Dáil to consider on its merits the proposal we are making. To wipe out the resolution now simply means that you will not give any compensation whatever of any kind or sort to the railway companies. It means that they get nothing if this resolution be not adopted.

That was not exactly what I said. What I moved was the deletion of Clause 2 until such time as the terms of the agreement come to between the Government and the Railway Companies had been explained to the Dáil.

That raises a constitutional question which the Deputy, I am sure, will not expect me to explain. The usual procedure with regard to any service that we administer or intend to provide is, first of all, to get a money resolution authorising its execution. If a Bill be introduced which contemplates the spending of public money a resolution authorising such expenditure has to be introduced and passed, and within the ambit of that particular resolution you are entitled to consider—to amend, but not to extend—the authority that you get by reason of such resolution. In other words, if a sum of money were mentioned here, it would not be within the competence of Deputies to move that that sum should be extended, say, to one and a half millions. According to the Constitution, only the Minister for Finance can bring in a resolution and get it proposed. I would point out to the Deputy that unless that resolution be passed the Dáil cannot consider and pass any clause in this Bill dealing with compensation to the Railway Companies. It is open, of course, to him to amend and otherwise alter the clauses which we put down, but it is not open to us to consider that until the resolution put down here is passed.

The proposal of Deputy Davin is to delete Clause 2 of this resolution, not for the purpose of preventing the authorisation of money to be spent, but to enable the Ministry to bring forward a separate resolution in a separate Bill which would give us information such as is not contained in the present Bill. This resolution is preliminary, as the Minister himself has said to a proposed amendment of the Bill which is to come forward at a later stage, and which authorises the Ministry to make terms with the Railway Companies—to make an agreement with the Railway Companies—without giving any information to the Dáil as to the terms of that agreement until after it is signed, sealed, and delivered. What we desire to do is to make it possible for the Ministry to bring forward to the Dáil a Bill which would enable them to pay such compensation as is necessary on such terms and conditions as the Dáil thinks desirable and to precede that by a similar Money Resolution. On the question of procedure the advice of Ceann Comhairle has been followed in this matter, and that was that questions under discussion ought to be raised on the Money Resolution in the first instance. The proposal in the Bill is, of course, to empower the Government to make agreements with the railway companies in regard to the terms in which compensation will be paid, but it will be noted that in the case of any other person or company that has suffered damage there are express conditions set out in the Criminal and Malicious Injuries Bill, but exceptions are being made in the case of railway companies. We think it desirable that the Dáil should be informed of the terms, or, at least, the line of thought of the Ministry in considering agreements with railway companies in respect of compensation. Deputy Davin has spoken of the necessity of insuring that the sufferers from rifle shot, broken bridges, amongst railway servants should be specifically provided for in any agreement, and I would press upon the Dáil to insist if they desire to keep the railway services going that the railway companies should be in a position to ensure that their servants will be protected against poverty as well as personal injury as the result of that poverty. We want to ensure that the men engaged in this particular work should be assured of some compensation because of the risks they are running.

At this stage Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

And quite apart from the other question that Deputy Davin raised as to the conditions under which the money shall be spent, we want to insist that provision shall be made in any agreement of this kind that the companies will be bound, if nobody else is bound, to recompense sufferers from malicious damage committed on the railways. I think the Dáil is entitled to know what kind of agreements are being demanded by the companies, and what kind of agreements are being offered by the Ministry to the companies before we vote either for this Money Authorisation, or, at a later stage, for the amendment that is being put down. Surely, it is not too much to ask at the end of March for some information as to the policy that the Government is proposing in regard to these railways; first, in regard to their reconstruction as to damage and generally in regard to railway policy. The amendment, if carried, to delete Sub-section 2, does not prevent money being paid to the railway companies for compensation, but will enable the Minister to come forward and explain the scheme, and to tell us some of the terms of the agreements that are being entered into, and to get authorisation specifically for work that has to be done on the railways and the compensation that has to be paid to the railway companies. That would be the effect of the carrying of the amendment, and it does not destroy the plan of the Bill to any extent whatever.

In Clause 1 of the motion I wish to say that the President extended the date from the 6th February to the 20th March, and I would now ask him to extend it to the 31st March.

We are on a motion to delete Sub-section 2 of the motion, and I think we had better get that disposed of before we go into any other question.

I have no desire whatever to have it understood by the President or by the Government that I am moving the deletion of this clause for the purpose of denying the railway company the right to compensation. The President has informed the Dáil, and I understand it for the first time that he or the Government have already paid a sum of money in advance to one railway company for a particular purpose. I submit to him that the deletion of this clause will not prevent him or the Government from paying any similar amount to any other company for the purpose of carrying out reconstruction work. I submit that the Dáil and the country are entitled to understand quite clearly every condition of any agreement entered into between the Government and the company in regard to the question of compensation, and the conditions under which money is going to be voted out of public funds.

Amendment put and negatived.

I would like to move a further amendment to Clause 2; that is to add at the end the words, "approved by resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas." The effect of that would be that the agreement which is to be made pursuant to the Act which is now to be considered between the Minister for Finance and any railway companies shall be approved by a resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas before it becomes oprative.

Would not this amendment be more properly moved in the discussion on the Bill when the amendment to insert the agreement Section is being taken?

I am satisfied, if that meets the case.

I would like to make a suggestion in support of that. The resolution says, "any agreements made pursuant to such Act." Therefore, if we introduce into the Act, by way of amendment to the motion that has been proposed by the Minister for Finance that such motion be approved by resolution that would meet the view of Deputy Johnson, and this resolution would not prevent the necessity of obtaining such resolution. I submit to Deputy Johnson and to you that it would come in better in the Act.

On the other hand if it were defeated in the Bill I doubt if it would be operative here.

I would rather see it defeated now.

Well, Deputy Johnson has withdrawn the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I would like to ask the President to extend the time further from the 20th March to the 31st March. As he is aware a considerable number of claims for malicious injuries have come in from the country and it would relieve the County Councils very much if it were extended, and I have no doubt he would give that request a sympathetic hearing.

I would point out to the Deputy that my office is limited. I am merely President, and it is not from the President that you would get authorisation but from the Executive Council. I am asked to extend this from the 20th March to the 31st March. If my recollection is right it is stated in the Gospel "sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." No damage has been done beyond the 20th March and I am invited to pay for damage that has not yet been done. As a business man I do not think that I could undertake such liability as that. This is a generous concession that up to date we are prepared to pay for damage, but if we are asked to take on liability that has not materialised it is too much. I do not think that any Minister I ever heard of would make such a recommendation.

I suggest to the President that in this motion the words "Committee on Finance" be changed to "Dáil Eireann." We only created the Committee on Finance by our Standing Orders coming into force to-day. There was no such thing known before the 22nd February as a Committee on Finance. I suggest that leave of the Dáil be asked to make that change operative.

All right.

I take it leave is given to the President to amend the motion accordingly.

Motion as amended put and agreed.
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