I beg to move the adjournment of the Dáil until Monday, the 26th instant, at 3 o'clock. I regret to have to bring members together next week, as I understand there is a general desire to get away for a fortnight at Easter. We will want members, however, on Monday and Tuesday, and then we will be able to undertake to adjourn for fourteen or sixteen days, or perhaps a little longer.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE DAIL—MOTOR CAR DUTIES.
I second.
I have not had time to prepare a thesis, so that the President may feel happy, nor indeed have I had time to consider all the points that might well arise in connection with this matter. I may say as far as my morning was concerned that I was interrupted frequently by people who were interested expressing the desire that I should take the matter up in the Dáil to-day. I have not even had time to read the newspapers this morning in order to see what their attitude was with regard to this. But I know quite well what the attitude of the motor trade and of motor users is. There has been a sort of panic created this morning by the announcement made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue that they would seek for a 33? per cent. ad valorem duty on all British-manufactured motor cars coming into the country after the 1st April. Already I am told that a considerable number of orders have been cancelled in view of this statement. This 33? per cent. ad valorem duty was imposed as a war measure in order to prevent cars being sent into the country from America and other foreign countries at a time when the motor trade in England was not able to function. As soon as hostilities ceased British manufacturers were able to show and persuade the Government that it would be impossible for them under existing conditions to compete with foreign production. They stated that their workshops had been engaged on other work; that the machinery had gone out of order, and that the cost of material and of labour was so increased in the interval that unless this 33? per cent. ad valorem duty were retained upon foreign manufactured cars they would be out of trade completely. The effect is that this Finance Act is continuous and is at present in force, and I take it is in force here until a new Finance Act has been brought into force by ourselves. There is, therefore, apparently no means at present of escaping the consequences of the statement that was made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue last night. It is suggested that as far as the Free State is concerned there are three actions possible for them to take in this matter. In the first place that they might charge this 33? per cent. duty upon all cars imported into the Free State; secondly, that they might give a preferential duty to the British-made cars on the same lines as Great Britain has agreed to introduce or to impose upon other commodities passing from this country into Great Britain. That percentage, I am told, would be about 20 or 21 per cent. The third suggestion is that there should be a free trade policy with regard to all cars. That is the position that I should like to take up, because there is not any question if the first is adopted—that is, the 33? per cent. ad valorem duty on all cars—that the British cars would cease to be sold in this country. That would mean that a car coming into this country which at present costs £600 would in future cost £800, and that a smaller car costing £300 would in future cost £400, and that the American, French and Italian cars can be got at a much cheaper rate. There is no doubt that that will destroy the trade in British-made cars in this country. I do not know that even the adoption of the second means would be a great improvement, because with the twenty per cent. duty imposed upon the British cars I do not think they would be able to hold their own. I suggest that if free trade were adopted between the two countries in respect to motor cars everybody, except perhaps the Minister for Finance, would be satisfied with the result. Even in the face of the Minister for Finance's objection I venture to say that if there were free trade cars would be so much cheaper that there would be a great many more cars used and that when he comes to consider the imposition of the motor tax upon fuel, rather than upon horse power, there would be so much more fuel used that he would be able to make up for any little deficiency that might result from the non-imposition of this 33? per cent. duty. I would go even further and say that it would be advisable for him to increase the duty upon the petrol or other fuel that is used and make the people who are using the cars pay for them in that particular way. I admit quite freely that the Minister for Finance must have money. I have never got away from that fact; he will not let us get away from it himself. I want, however, to call his attention to the terrible disadvantages under which the motor trade and motor users have been placed in this Free State. I had an opportunity of going through the country in a motor car one day last week, and I would suggest to any of the Ministers if they are suffering from torpidity of the liver that if they take that journey, as I did, of 40 or 50 miles through the country in a motor car, they will not require Carter's Little Liver Pills afterwards as a help. The roads are in a frightful condition, and when I was driving over some of them I said to myself that I did not know how the Minister for Finance could compel people to pay any tax whatever for using their cars on these roads. In addition to that we have this rather intolerable tax per horse-power, as against the tax upon fuel, which would be a fair and legitimate tax, and would be in proportion to the use that would be made of the roads. The man who only uses his car a few times in the week should not have to pay as much as the man whose car is constantly on the road injuring the surface. As far as the trade is concerned, we had the stealing of cars and the commandeering of cars. We had this very unjust tax and we had the state of the roads. In addition to that tourists have been kept out of the country from various causes. I also wish to point out that there are many British-made cars in the country at present and there is no question that very quickly any agencies that exist here for the sale of these cars will die out. It will be impossible for those of us who have British-made cars to get parts; at all events, if we want parts we will have to write direct to the maker of the motor, and pay duty on parts coming in, and be put to a tremendous amount of inconvenience. Furthermore, the imposition of this duty will make travelling extremely difficult. I occasionally visit my friends in the North in order to show them what a great advantage it would be to them to come into the Free State. If I travel to the North in my own motor car in future I will be stopped at the Customs frontier, and will have to make a deposit of one-fourth or one-third of the value of the car, and then have to claim that money coming back. It would be fairly easy for a person to take an old car up to the North, and get a new car there on which no duty had been paid, or at all events not this duty on British cars, and come back with that new car. Not only would it prevent people who live in the Free State travelling freely through the country, but it would certainly prevent tourists coming here. It is bad enough at the present, but we have no great hopes of inducing tourists to come here, at any rate within the next few months. We should lay our plans to lessen the difficulties attached to tourists coming into Ireland. As most of you know, there is an International arrangement by which, when one is going to a foreign country, say France, you deposit a certain amount of money on entering and get it back coming away. People might do that to get to France. They would be able to go to Scotland without suffering any inconvenience, but I do not think they are likely to come here unless we offer them some inducement. If we make things difficult here I do not think they are likely to come. I want to make another point, and I think it is perhaps the most important one. The imposition of the duty is not to protect any Irish industry. There is no Irish industry to protect, except perhaps to some extent the Ford industry in Cork. At all events, we have not industries here that will suffer or be protected by the imposition of this tax. I think I may go a little further, as I am speaking now to an Irish audience with a knowledge of Irish history, and say that I do not know whether the British people have very much changed within the last few centuries. I have read my Irish history sufficiently well to know that the woollen industry was destroyed, or partially destroyed, I think in the reign of Charles I., and subsequently completely destroyed in the reign of William. Not only was the woollen industry, but nearly every other industry was destroyed. Why were they destroyed? Because the English people, when the shoe pressed, were determined that they would not have the competition of Ireland against them. I do not see at the present moment, if we impose the 33 per cent. ad valorem tax, why there may not be a reprisal on the part of Great Britain, who might say, “If you make it impossible for us to get trade in your country, so far as motors are concerned, we will see that your trade with us in the goods that affect you must suffer something by way of reprisal.” I would like to ask the Minister for Finance to allay some of the consternation that has arisen to-day with regard to this tax, and I would like him if possible to consider very carefully the details of his Finance Bill before bringing it to the Dáil. Meanwhile if he can assure these people as to what means he intends to adopt with regard to this tax I, as well as a great many others, will be greatly pleased. When coming up the stairs to-day and thinking over what I was going to say here one of my colleagues rushed up and said to me: “Hurry up, go and try and get your motor car cheaper.” I admit I am not speaking impartially in this matter. I am speaking at the moment for my profession as well as for the motor trade, because the medical profession is the one profession above all others in the country that cannot do without motors, and I, on their behalf, would like to do all I could and use any small influence I have in order to render the use of motors as cheap as possible. I am very much obliged to the Dáil for listening to me so long and I hope the Minister for Finance will be able to give us some assurance that things will not be as bad as we fear they will be.
I rise to support the statement that has been made and I do so from a different standpoint, the standpoint of those who earn their living in the motor trade in Ireland, motor agents, motor mechanics and general workers in the trade. There are some thousands of persons earning a living in the motor trade in Ireland, and if this tax is imposed it will mean complete ruin both to the motor trade and the motor industry generally in this country. The motor trade has been one of the most harassed and persecuted trades in the country for the past three or four years. Almost all the garages in Ireland have had cars seized on them both by the Government forces and by Irregular forces. The motor trade at the present moment I dare say, has a claim against the Government, and since the Government has been established they have been asking for payment of their accounts. Some of them are at the moment existing on overdrafts in the bank while the Government owes them huge sums of money. For some reason or other they will not make any effort to speed up the payments to those unfortunate traders. If the Government imposes this tax what is to become of the men engaged in the repairs of motor cars, when the owners find that the 33? per cent. applies to spare parts for the repair of the old cars? Deputy Craig has already informed you that it will mean an addition of from £150 to £200 on a £600 car. It means that the car will not be bought in this country but that it will be bought elsewhere. It means also that the cars will not be used to the extent that people had hoped to use them in business matters. The petrol tax is one which I do not think I should bring in on the adjournment question but that alone has been a considerable embarrassment to the trade. The way of levying it has been a great embarrassment and I ask now will the Government not do the reasonable thing and treat the motor traders of Ireland with the respect with which they would treat any other class of trader in the country. Postpone the consideration of this imposition and consult a deputation of experts in the trade. I do not believe that the Government have been consulting with any experts since they started tampering with the motor trade. Ask experts to come in and help you as to how to raise revenue and put a reasonable tax on cars. They could adopt the Canadian system which is only twelve and a half per cent. They could make a further arrangement as regards Continental cars. The Fiat cars are very good and some of our Ministers who use them know the comfort they can get out of them. If any of these cars come through English wholesalers to a sub-agent in Dublin it could easily be arranged in the case of the cars thus sold through a sub-agency for an English wholesaler that the tax of 33? per cent. could be divided equally. It is not impossible to make some arrangement to get the tax on cars sold through English agents in Ireland. It is not unreasonable to ask that that tax should be divided and I believe if the Ministry would meet the traders concerned a scheme could be arrived at that would bring satisfaction to all parties. As Deputy Craig said a few moments ago there was a regular panic in Dublin this morning amongst people who had cars on order to be delivered within two or three months. They are bound to their bargain their contracts having already been signed. How are they going to pay 33? per cent. more than they made arrangements for? If they do not keep to their contracts it means litigation. It means serious loss to those people some way or other, and I hope the Ministry will do in this case what they would do with other traders and not treat them in the high-handed way they are treating them. Let them call them in and ask them to advise them and put some common sense into the parties in the Government who are dealing with the motor trade.
It is rather pathetic to notice the solicitude for the English motor trade. Deputy Byrne is very anxious to secure the motor dealers in English cars with the continuance of their sub-agencies for continental cars from English houses.
Mr. BYRNE
There are many such houses. I do not wish to continue them and I should not be misrepresented.
One effect of this tax I have no doubt would be to encourage direct agencies, not sub-agencies. But it is the solicitude as I say for English motor makers as against American that strikes me. It seems to me that we are more inclined to get advantages in the motor trade, at any rate, for the users of the moderately priced cars from America, France or Belgium, than from England, and I do not think we should be too solicitous for the welfare of the English motor manufacturers. I do not know very much about this business, but I think I probably know as much about it as most others. It should have been evident to anybody who has been reading the newspapers or following political events for the last twelve months that the announcement which was casually printed or set out in the papers yesterday was an obvious result of last year's Taxation Bill. And we have not yet been told what is to be the position after the middle of April. We do not know, and I think it is rather premature to get into a flurry. Whether the 33? per cent. is too much or too little I do not know, but you must bear in mind when you are talking of motor cars that you are talking of more than the dealers in motor cars. After all the motor trader while he serves a useful purpose is not the only man to be considered. Deputy Craig spoke mainly for the user and I have no doubt that the Minister for Finance and his advisers will so calculate the ultimate tax as to ensure that the greatest possible number of cars, in conjunction with the greatest amount of finance, will be brought into use, and they have probably as much opportunity of making that calculation as anybody else, but I hope they will not be predisposed in favour of the luxury car which is manufactured in England as compared with the cheaper car which is brought from other countries. I think there should be if there is not—probably there already is—some differentiation between the machine part of the car which, as has been said, is not manufactured in Ireland, and those parts of the cars which are manufactured in Ireland, or ought to be. There is a very large number of body makers in this country, and I would suggest that if Deputy Byrne is interested in that side of the business he would make some enquiry amongst those people who earn their living by making bodies and the adjuncts of motor cars before he asks that there should be no restriction upon the import of fully equipped motor cars. I only rose because I do not want it to go out that there is a universal objection to a tariff upon finished motor cars. I am prepared to suspend judgment as to the amount and the incidence of the tax, but I want if possible to save the Ministry of Finance from being stampeded into throwing up its hands at the attack of the motor selling trade.
I think we should consider this matter purely from the Irish point of view. A tax on cars coming into this country would be a beneficial act if we were manufacturing cars in this country. But the fact is, we do not manufacture cars in this country, and therefore I think it is a tax on the user. There is nobody in Ireland who is extremely wealthy and can afford to pay large prices for cars. The users of cars in Ireland are not wealthy men, and cannot afford to pay a tax of £200 on a car. However, if cars are to be taxed, there is no reason why the English car should not be taxed as well as the American or French or Italian cars. There is a tax of thirtythree and one-third per cent. charged on these cars, and that tax was imposed in the interest of British manufacturers. This tax on British cars is legitimate unless the tax on the other cars is withdrawn also. Personally, I think that would be the better way. As we do not manufacture cars, I think the better way would be to cancel the tax on all cars. But if we cancel the tax on American cars, we should not do it merely because it benefits America. We should get something from America in return for it. Let them cancel their tax on Irish tweeds or Irish linens——
A DEPUTY
That is not an Irish industry.
I would be satisfied if they would take the tax off Irish linen. We should initiate a treaty with America, as Canada has done with France, and also arrange one with France and Italy, and get the best bargain we can. I would not give them anything for nothing. We should always think of the Irish user. Sir James Craig has spoken about England making a reprisal. England did not consider Ireland or even their friends in the North when they were allowing Canadian cattle in. I do not think we should consider them now. As a matter of fact, this should be a reprisal for their attitude towards Irish cattle. Deputy Byrne said it would injure the motor trade. I do not know that this tax would injure the motor trade. If you put the English manufacturers of cars on the same level as the others, it only means that they will have to compete with them on the same terms. If they cannot compete with them, the only thing for them to do would be to establish a branch here of their manufacturing business. That would give more work here. I think it would tend to give employment rather than to diminish employment if the tax were put on, but I would rather see the tax withdrawn altogether if we could get a good return for it.
I would like to say a few words on this matter. I have not a motor car of my own, but I have a motor bicycle, which I have used for the past seven years. I think the English manufacturer in this matter of the tax should be quite capable of looking after himself. I would submit that this tax has not been instituted without very careful consideration, and I think it is a very debatable point whether this duty would not tend to give more employment to our people than they would have if these new cars were allowed to come into this country duty free. It has been said here that there is no firm manufacturing motor cars in Ireland. I think Chambers, of Belfast, manufacture motor cars. They used to do so at all events, but I do not know whether they are doing it at present.
A DEPUTY
That is a foreign car.
Ireland is all one. Gorman, of Clonmel, and many other motor firms throughout Ireland are practically in a position to build motor cars themselves, and the sooner we start building motor cars ourselves from the wheels up to the crank and the piston rods and the cylinders and everything else connected with motor cars the better for this country. As regards spare parts, I think the sooner we make these the better. I do not know that Ford's in Cork are making motor cars at present, but if not they ought to start.
I think due regard ought to be given to the interests of motor cars. There is no doubt that motor cars are annually coming into this country by the thousand, and the total amount of money they represent if there is no means of producing the article at home would simply run the country into bankruptcy in a few years. I think a duty is the proper thing and to try and encourage Irish industry thereby. This is really a very serious matter. I have not the figures by me, but the total value in money represented by motor cars coming in would run into hundreds of thousands, and I think even a million. It is a huge sum that deserves considerable attention, and I hope that the Ministry will give it this attention, and I hope they will not allow themselves to be diverted from their duty by the cry of save this or that particular person or thing, but that rather they will be attracted by the cry of save the nation.
I have very little to say in reply. Article 74 of the Constitution lays down our position in law, and until that is altered or repealed you are presented with a state of affairs that fixes duty on certain articles on and after the 1st April, which formerly did not bear any charge. I will not anticipate the statement that I will make on the Estimates for Receipts and Expenditure on Monday further than to say that I have not been impressed by the case made for the motor owners, or with the fact that people who can afford to pay five or six hundred pounds for a car cannot afford to contribute anything towards the finances of the State. We must get money from one source or other; we must either tax all round and fairly all round or restrict expenditure. Deputies come here repeatedly, time after time, asking for an extension of this service and of that, and some other service, but when it comes to a question of raising the money nobody can make a suggestion as to how it is to be got. Get it from somebody else is always the story.
Now certain cars have borne a very heavy import duty for a considerable time, and, as far as I know, people who are able to pay, and I know some of them who have paid it, do so, and others have cars upon which no duty is paid and they have a great advantage. I hope they will consider when they are salving their consciences, now or in the future, sending in any contribution they think in law or equity they owe to the National Treasury. With regard to the other question of the taxation of fuel I do not know that it is possible to consider the matter this year. I am not very keen on the re-consideration of the whole fiscal system until there is an apportunity of considering it in the widest aspect. It is not a matter that can be dealt with with any degree of satisfaction in a haphazard way. We have not been able to give it any such consideration as it deserves, and it is not wise to make experiments. This is not in the nature of an experiment. It is an imposition that the Dáil agreed and subscribed to and passed last October or November. You had it before you then and you all subscribed to it in this particular article of the Constitution, which provides that "during the said current financial year all taxes and duties and arrears thereof shall continue to be assessed, levied and collected in like manner in all respects as immediately before this Constitution come into operation, subject to the like adjustments of the proceeds collected as were theretofore applicable."
Now, unless and until the Dáil reviews or repeals this taxation, which I am advised by the officers of my Department is law, it is not in my power to alter it. It is the Act of this Assembly, and it is an Act which, if you consider its repeal, you will also have to consider in what manner you will provide the money you lose by relieving one section of the community in this respect. I do not understand how it is that people reading the newspapers regularly and systematically can tell you one day, "Oh, we never heard of a Customs barrier, we never heard of an ad valorem duty,” and so on. The sooner we make it our business to know what is going on the better.
Question: "That the Dáil do now adjourn," put and agreed to.
Dáil adjourned at 4.40 p.m. to Monday, at 3 o'clock.