I beg to move the adjournment of the Dáil to Tuesday next, at 3 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - POTATO CROP IN NORTH LOUTH.
I gave notice earlier that I would raise a question on the Motion for the Adjournment in regard to the potato crop in the County Louth. The crop, over a very considerable portion of the Constituency that I represent, is affected in a very serious way; and I may say at the outset, that the question is one which may affect the country at large in a year or so. I think the time is opportune when this matter should be taken up earnestly by the Government. The condition of the crop affects a very large number of industrious people in the peninsula of North Louth. The people in that area go in considerably for the intensive cultivation of the potato crop, and, at the moment, they have on their hands from ten to twelve thousand tons of potatoes which they find it impossible to market. One of the reasons why they cannot market the crop is, that the area is a scheduled area under a Black Scab Order, the result being that the farmers, and other people, who grow potatoes in that very large area, cannot export their crop to any part of Ireland for disposal. They usually found a market in England for the very large surplus crop they had, but this year it is impossible for them to find a market, except at a price that would not pay them to handle the produce. I will endeavour to give some figures which, I am sure, will convince the Minister for Agriculture at any rate, that the case of these people is one of very real hardship. I have brought the matter already under the notice of the Minister. A deputation of both growers and exporters waited on him in reference to the matter. He was good enough on that occasion to send down an Inspector as a result of the representations made to him. The Inspector made an examination of the district, and I am sure satisfied himself that the statements made in regard to the condition of the people there were quite correct. I have not had an opportunity of seeing that report; I do not know what is in it, because I expect it is a confidential report from an Inspector to the Minister. I believe that the report will bear out, to some extent at any rate, if not to the full, the facts that I am about to place before you. I do not want to labour this question very much, because the Minister knows all about it. I know, however, that the obvious answer I will get from the Minister is, that he has no money. I would remind the Government, at the same time, that they expect to get taxes from that area; they have to get the annuities which are payable to the Land Commission, and the County Council has to get its rates. But, if the people cannot get a market for their produce which is now allowed to rot at the backs of the ditches in that area, I do not see anything before them except bankruptcy. These are people who never asked for any subsidy, or any dole, from the Government, and probably they will never have to ask for it again, but this year they are very hard hit. I am convinced at any rate—I do not know whether the Minister is or not—that it will be impossible for them to get over their present difficulty, and pay their way during the coming year or to pay the Government what they legitimately owe and are quite willing to pay if given an opportunity to do so, unless some help is forthcoming from the Government for them. The area comprises five electoral divisions, and contains 25,726 acres. In that area, it is only just to say, there are the Carlingford mountains, which probably absorb about 2,000 acres. The valuation of the area is £15,648. If the local District Council were to strike a rate to give these people anything adequate at all as a means of relief, it would mean they would have to strike a rate of 6s. or 8s. in the pound. I hold it would be impossible for these people, or indeed for any other people in Ireland, to bear an extra rate of that magnitude on top of the rates that they have to pay to the County Council and the District Council at the present time. As I have stated, the people in this area have from ten to twelve thousand tons of potatoes at the moment to dispose of, and the price offered for them is 9d. per cwt., or 15s. per ton.
Now, take the prices in the Dublin market as given in last night's papers, and compare them with the prices for the same class of potatoes grown in the area, and you will find that in Dublin the price is 3s. 9d. to 4s. 6d. per cwt., or £3 15s. to £4 10s. a ton. I do not know if it is possible for the potatoes to be allowed out for sale in the market in Dublin, but, making every excuse for the glut that would be brought about I hold that the potatoes would be sold at at least 2s. 6d. per cwt. That would give something like an ordinary fair rate, and it might, perhaps, compensate the people in some way for growing the crop. Eleven to twelve tons would be the average crop, and that would mean they would get about £8 per acre where the cost of production would be £30 an acre. At the lowest price in Dublin—3s. per cwt., or £3 a ton—they would get £33 an acre for the crop, and would be glad to get that. Unfortunately, however, the people will not get leave to take the potatoes across the line inside of which the restrictions are in force. That is the position these people are in. They have no place to go with the potatoes except England, and there they would get only 9d. cwt., or 15s. a ton, for the crop. In some Irish country towns potatoes are dearer than in Dublin, but owing to the prevalence of this disease in the area the people are not allowed to send the potatoes out. There is a large amount of those potatoes of the immune variety; they will not take this disease, but at the same time even those will not be allowed out owing to the restrictions put upon the area by the Department. I hold that the people there are entitled to consideration in some way by the Government since the Government have restricted them from selling the crop in what they might consider the best market they could get. I appeal to the Minister for Agriculture to try and meet these deserving people, and so enable them to tide over their difficulty. A man gets £8 for what it costs him £30 to produce, because he cannot get to the market where his potatoes will fetch the highest price. I know the Minister will say: "I have the whole of the country to look after, and I cannot allow diseased potatoes to go into other parts of it; I cannot take the risk." When that risk cannot be taken I hold it is the duty of the Government and the Minister to come to the assistance of the people and to save the remainder of the country from the disease. The position is one of extreme hardship and delicacy. These people will be compelled to allow the crop to rot at the back of the ditches because they cannot get a fair market for it. It is the plain duty of the Government to do something to relieve the existing state of affairs. It will, perhaps, take five or six thousand pounds to give those people a means of exporting the potatoes to England even. At the prevailing prices it will not pay a farmer to devote his own time or to pay men to put those potatoes into bags for the purpose of exporting them. The Government will not allow the potatoes to be sent into other parts of Ireland, for obvious reasons. They fear the disease will spread. When restrictions are put on, the Government, in my opinion, should come to the assistance of the people, and see they are not made beggars of just because, unfortunately, this disease arises in the district. I trust the Minister will hold out some hope that he will be able to do something for this very deserving community that has always been anxious to pay its way if the people in it get the opportunity, and that he will tell the Dáil that, if not now, he will very soon see that the crop does not go to loss, and that these people will be saved from bankruptcy.
This is a case which from its very nature demands help. It has been clearly stated here by the deputy for the Minister for Industry and Commerce that in connection with contracts a preference of 20 per cent. has been given for Irish products. Here is an Irish product, and I hope that the same partiality given by the Ministry of Industry and Commerce to Irishmen for materials produced in Ireland will be applied by the Minister for Agriculture in the particular cases brought under our notice. Deputy Johnson the other night animadverted very strongly on the point that fifty thousand uniforms were bought in London at 41s. instead of being purchased in Dublin at 45s. The result would be that the Central Fund would lose ten thousand pounds. That kind of thing is happening in other Departments. The Postmaster-General gives a 20 per cent. preference, and Deputy Whelehan has stated that in contracts a 20 per cent. preference was given for Irish material. He explained the reason of it in Tuam. If 4s. can be given to Dublin tailors on a suit of clothes I think 4s. in respect of oats and potatoes should also be given. I am quite sure the Minister for Agriculture has not made any provision for a subsidy for Agriculture in his estimates.
The case made by Deputy Hughes calls for some consideration from the Minister. Representations of the same nature have been made to me by residents in that area, and the point that is stressed, that I would like to stress, and that Deputy Hughes touched upon, is that quite a considerable quantity of seed potatoes recommended by, if not sold by, the Department at prices from £13 to £15 per ton, were guaranteed immune from the disease, and, having bought the potatoes at this price, the people are not allowed to sell out of the area. That does strike one as a legitimate cause for complaint. The wider question is whether, when a locality is made to suffer certain losses for the common good, the common purse ought not to be available for assistance and help. It seems to me that this is part of a general principle where, when individuals are called upon to suffer abnormally for the common good and for the protection of their neighbours in other parts of the country, that those neighbours have a right to bear some of the cost of that suffering. It is on those grounds and on that principle that I support the contentions of Deputy Hughes.
(At this stage An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the chair.)
Not only is the principle which has just been formulated by Deputy Johnson a sound one, but what I think is better, in view of the precedents which we are accustomed to follow, the principle has been adopted and acted upon in a similar matter by the Department of Agriculture. Hitherto it was not enough that any claim could be supported by reference to a sound and moral principle. It was necessary in accordance of the traditions of the English system to show a precedent in favour of it. In the case of Foot and Mouth Disease in cattle, where it became necessary to slaughter herds of valuable cattle, compensation was paid. It was recognised that for the sake of preserving the stock and saving one of the most valuable industries of the country from ruin that the individual farmer who suffered this terrible loss of losing his cattle, should be compensated for it inasmuch as this was done for the common benefit. So it seems to me that not only is the case cited by Deputy Wilson a parallel, but it is better than a parallel; it is a precedent—the very identical thing. It is not desirable, and Deputy Hughes himself in advocating relief insisted it was not desirable, that potatoes so infected should find their way into other areas that had hitherto been immune from Black Scab. The only case that seems to me that a perverted ingenuity could make against it is to pretend that the farmers were in the position of men who had made a bad speculation, and that consequently they had to bear the consequences of their wrong view as to what was a good crop. I think that would be a heartless, and not merely a heartless but an altogether unreasonable attitude to take up in the matter. Because it is clearly a case that had to be discovered. It is a matter belonging to climate and local conditions and, as a matter of fact, if we were to regard it properly the thing is rather in the nature of scientific research in aid of the agricultural industry, for it will enable us to realise that soils of a certain type, and seed potatoes of a certain type, should not be brought together. It is a valuable lesson to the Agricultural Department and even from that point of view I am arguing it is worth paying for. It seems to me that the case made by Deputy Hughes is absolutely convincing and that nothing but an absolute inability on the part of the State to pay its way should be accepted as an answer to it. Fortunately for the case that he has made and for the people for whose relief he seeks the assistance of this Dáil, the President told us to-day that the attempt to destroy the financial soundness of the new Free State had failed and failed miserably, that the State is able to pay its way, is able to carry these financial burdens, even those extra and unexpected burdens that lawlessness has imposed upon it. So that out of his own mouth I am able to quote an assurance that should be absolutely encouraging to the Minister for Agriculture to do what I am quite sure from my knowledge of him he is anxious to be permitted by the Executive to do.
This is undoubtedly a genuine case. I have as much sympathy with it as any Deputy in the Dáil. I do not want to pretend for one moment that there is not a genuine hardship here. I am anxious from every point of view, and I would be anxious naturally from every point of view, to do something to ameliorate it. Deputy Hughes has stated the case fairly, but I am not admitting all his figures. He has really stated the facts of the case fairly accurately. There are very large quantities of potatoes in that area. In fact, potato-growing is practically its only industry. I have examined the case from every point of view, and I find a difficulty in saying what they are to do with these potatoes. But, I find with all the goodwill in the world, an equal difficulty in deciding what can be done to help them. That really is the position.
Twenty per cent.
Deputy Hughes has stated—but I had better clear up his figures as well as I can first—that they can get about 15s. per ton for those potatoes in England, whereas potatoes in Dublin are going 3s. 9d. per cwt., or £3 15s. per ton. Further, that it is costing them about £30 an acre to grow them and that by an acre they will now realise about £8. Well, these figures are just a little too good. The potatoes on the whole are immune varieties. There are parts of England where you can get more than 15s. per ton for these varieties. They are not ordinary varieties that people will eat if they had their choice. They are a potato like Lochinvars, and not quite as good as the Champion. But even such as they are, there are parts of England where you can get more than 15s. per ton for both—York, for instance. When the Deputy is quoting £3 15s. per ton for potatoes in Dublin, I think he is quoting the price of a better class of potatoes—table potatoes, such as Up-to-Dates. The only point I make about that is, that the loss is not quite as big as Deputy Hughes suggests. They will lose undoubtedly by reason of the fact that they use extraordianry quantities of artificial manures in that particular area. They probably use about twice as great a quantity of fertilisers per acre in that area as in any other area in Ireland. They will also lose by reason of the fact that they pay exorbitant prices for conacre to grow potatoes. They pay £7 or £8 per acre. They have done all that, and they now find themselves with their potatoes unsaleable. But remember they did all that with their eyes open. You must look at both sides of the question. They knew when they were sowing these potatoes that they could not sell the produce in Ireland. They knew that their only market was England. The position now is that the English market has failed them, not because of Black Scab or any disease, but because the bottom has fallen out of the potato market in England and they cannot sell them in England. The Department of Agriculture could not possibly take the responsibility of letting these potatoes out of the area for sale in any other part of Ireland. This is a very virulent disease and spreads with extraordinary rapidity, and no matter what the losses are the Department of Agriculture could not adopt any other policy except to schedule the areas where Black Scab is found; so that selling them in Ireland outside this area is out of the question. It would be risking the whole potato industry of the country. They have the English market, they have the French market and the rest of the world, anywhere where there is a market for potatoes. But they are not able to sell them there at a profit. They must sell them at a big loss. I want the advice of anybody in the Dáil as to what we should do. Deputy Wilson suggests a subsidy. Well, I am not Minister for Finance. but if I were, I do not think I would feel justified in giving a subsidy in this case. Deputy Johnson mentioned that immune varieties might be let into other parts of Ireland, but we have no evidence that it is the potato itself that carries the disease. In fact, there is little information about it, though it is in the country for some time. It might be carried in the bags, or it might be carried in the clay attaching to the potatoes, and the experts—I am not one—advise that that proposition would not be safe. Besides, you get other sorts of potatoes mixed with immune varieties. Immune varieties may be grown one year and the next year you might have non-immune varieties, and you would have the two mixed up. In any case, the experts advise that it would be absolutely unsafe to allow immune varieties out. Deputy Magennis suggested that you have a precedent. He talks about the slaughtering of cattle. That is not a precedent. On the face of it there is some similarity, but it is not by any means a precedent. When Foot and Mouth Disease appears in this country there is no market anywhere. The cattle simply cannot be taken out of the country. That is not the way with potatoes.
It is a difference of degree.
It is a difference of degree. These people have a market. They have a market in England and they have a market in France, and they have sold potatoes in France. They have a market elsewhere, and, more important than all, they planted these potatoes knowing they had no market in Ireland for them, knowing they were growing them for the English market. Supposing you did agree to give a subsidy, they would cheerfully grow potatoes next year, knowing perfectly well that if the English market were bad the Government would come along and pay them the difference. That is really the whole point of the case. No one is entitled to put all his eggs in one basket and have a gamble, and then if it does not come off, go to the Government for money. That is what it comes to. These people have insisted for years in making the growing of potatoes their one method of farming. They keep no pigs. They simply do nothing but grow potatoes and sell them, and they find themselves now absolutely dependent upon the growing of potatoes, for which they have no market. They have done that against repeated warnings from the Department of Agriculture. That is undoubtedly bad farming. It is easy enough for me to say it is bad farming, but I know very well that special conditions attach to that particular district. The land is suitable for nothing else except potatoes and barley. It is peculiarly suited to potatoes, and they made fortunes out of them during the war, but that does not justify them in putting all their eggs in one basket. They do not even keep a pig. There are plenty of people feeding most of their potatoes to pigs. There are a great many ways of farming besides growing potatoes even in a neighbourhood like that. These are the merits of the case. They sowed these potatoes last year knowing they had no market except the English market. They have continued to sow those potatoes. For several years that particular neighbourhood has been scheduled, and they had been warned that they were doing a very dangerous thing. This year they have come up against it, and they ask for a subsidy. I am as much interested in these people as any other Deputy, and I would like very much to do something for them if I could. I have sent one of the very best Inspectors from the Department of Agriculture up there to get information on the spot. I can honestly suggest nothing that can be done. I could not put up a proposition to the Minister for Finance which I could stand over, despite the hardship of the case. And I believe that if any of the Deputies who have spoken were in my position they would find themselves in the same difficulty. I would be glad of any advice anybody could give in regard to the matter.
The food is to rot.
May I ask the Minister if he can say whether any proposition has been put to him as to the utilisation of these potatoes for spirit production in Dundalk Distillery?
There have been a number of propositions of that sort. For instance, it has been suggested that they could be taken out for specific purposes —that they could be bought by the Army, or that they could be used by the Dundalk Distillery. I do not know whether the Dundalk Distillery people would buy them, but the difficulty we are in is that we simply cannot let them out. The smuggling of these potatoes is a very thriving industry, which we do our best to stop, and if we once allowed any of these potatoes out we would be in a very weak position to deal with smuggling. Remember that this disease is very virulent, and if it spread would ruin the whole potato trade of the country.
Could you advance these people some money to buy pigs, and let them feed the potatoes to the pigs?
I do not believe they would buy pigs.
As regards smuggling, it is going on, and if some relief is not given, and if the penalty for smuggling is not made very prohibitive, you will have the country all round, and the counties immediately bordering on Louth, ruined by this disease. The expenditure of a few thousand pounds now might save hundreds of thousands in the years to come. If the Government do not like to take that risk, and get these potatoes disposed of, they will have nobody but themselves to blame if they are obliged to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds in the future.
Mr. DOYLE
The Minister for Agriculture says that, even if advances were made, these people would not buy pigs. I would like to know if there are facilities in the district to house and feed pigs?
Undoubtedly; but they have not made pig-rearing an industry, as in other parts of the country.
Mr. DOYLE
I believe that the only solution of this question is consumption of the potatoes by pigs. If the bankers fail to advance money to these poor people to buy pigs I think the Government should see that they get it somehow, so as not to have the potatoes completely lost. The Minister for Agriculture refuses a subsidy. This would not be a subsidy; it could be given by way of loan, and the matter should be dealt with now before the potatoes deteriorate too much.
We have no authority to advance money for the purchase of pigs. There is authority to advance money for the purchase of seeds and manures. District Councils were empowered to do that, but, as Deputy Hughes explained, his position is that that would be asking too much of the people. An advance could be made on the security of the rates for purchase of seeds and manures, but they do not want seeds there; they have seeds. There would not be much use in advances or loans for purchasing pigs in that particular area. I am perfectly convinced that if an advance were made what they would do would be to devote the money to growing more potatoes.
This shows the necessity that was emphasised many years ago by certain reformers—the necessity for people's banks for agricultural purposes. These banks would make available advances to meet emergencies of the kind we are considering. Surely, in view of the peril that Deputy Hughes has indicated, which threatens the agricultural industry in the neighbouring counties, it would be possible to have a short emergency Act run through to empower the Ministry of Agriculture to make loans for this purpose, repayable after a certain number of years. A stipulation could be made prohibiting a continuance of this practice, which the Minister says the former Department of Agriculture notified as injurious. It is too terrible a thing to think that we can give the answer: "There is nothing to be done; we are bound by some legal technicality. The Minister for Agriculture is entitled to advance money only for seeds, and there his power stops." One reason why we looked for self-government and the provision of such an Institution as this Parliament was that we might be freed from the trammels of red tape and sealing wax, and the shackles of British officialdom, which always gave the same stereotyped answer to grievances of the people of this kind. It seems to me that we would be as well employed in passing a short Act to empower the Minister to deal with this question as we were in passing an Act for altering the clock.
I wish to say a few words in support of the suggestion that local authorities should be empowered to advance money to these people for the purchase of pigs. The Minister for Agriculture said that, under the existing law, money can be advanced for the purchase of seeds. That law was passed in response to pressure when there was distress in the West of Ireland, and we have now distress which would entitle us to make a similar law by which money could be advanced for the purchase of pigs. I think Deputy Hughes said that local people would hesitate to bear an additional burden. In this case there could not be much of a burden, because they have their potatoes, and the rearing of the pigs would save them from loss, even if it would not ensure a profit. I think local people should properly bear that burden. It would not be a very large one.
I have an idea in connection with this matter, and I do not know whether it is a very good one or not. My suggestion would be that these potatoes should be boiled and mixed with some other ingredient and used like linseed cake by the agricultural community of that county or elsewhere.
AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE
Tá deireadh leis an diospóireacht anois. Tá an t-am caithte.
The Dáil adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 17th April.