I beg to move:—"That a sum not exceeding £1,220,055 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for expenditure in respect of Superannuation, Compensation, Compassionate and Additional Allowances and Gratuities under Sundry Statutes; Compensation under Article 10 of the Treaty of the 6th December, 1921; Compassionate Allowances, Gratuities and Supplementary Pensions awarded by the Minister for Finance; the salary of the Medical Referee; and Sundry Payments in respect of Pensions at present paid by the British Government." There has been £420 voted on account.
ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.
I want to ask the Minister if he has had any representation regarding the question of pensions to Prison Officers, or whether it is the intention of the Government as the result of any representations that may have been made to amend the Act of 1909? I would also like to ask the Minister if he is aware of any cases where people who have taken advantage of the conditions under Clause 10 of the Treaty and retired upon fairly reasonable conditions have got positions in any other Government Departments or section of the Free State Civil Service.
Could the Minister assist us to understand what are likely to be the total commitments under Article 10 of the Treaty in respect to allowances? I daresay that he has been able to sound the views of members of the various staffs, officials, and so on, as to whether they are likely to retire or whether they are to be asked to retire. If he could give some idea how far the retirements have proceeded and what are likely to be the total commitments under this head it would be of interest to the Dáil and the country. I am not sure whether I understand this aright. In regard to the retirement under the Treaty of officials of the Post Office, Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue Departments, are they charged in their respective estimates, and if so, why are they treated differently? Why should they not be brought under this Estimate so that we will get to know more clearly what the total sum chargeable under this head may be? Perhaps the figures are already in the hands of the Minister and he could enlighten us on that.
Arising out of the point raised by Deputy Johnson I would be glad if the Minister would give a little further explanation, than I for one am in possession of, or I believe anybody is, in regard to the operation of Article 10 of the Treaty. Article 10 of the Treaty states that certain compensation will be paid to those who are discharged by the Free State Government or who retire in consequence of the change of Government effected in pursuance of the Treaty. It appeals to my mind, at least, that if a person is likely to retire in consequence of a change of Government that there ought to be some date by which that person's decision should be limited. It is incredible that a person should retire, say twelve months after that change has been effected, by reason of the change, because if twelve months, then why not two years, and so on? I think there ought to be a limit of time within which such persons shall have made up their minds whether the change of Government is such as would cause their retirement. That arises specially on the Vote immediately before the Committee, because it appears from the Estimates put before us that the Estimate under this particular head for the new financial year is to be £31,000 in excess of what it was the year that has just closed. That figure surprised me very considerably because I had imagined that a great number of them, if not all the retirements, would have operated by the end of the last financial year, and that there would be very few to be incurred in this new financial year after the establishment of the State, and six months after the enforcement and prescription of the Constitution. In any case there is a figure showing an increase of £31,000, £29,000 having increased to £60,000. I think we ought to have some fuller information put before the Committee as to the cause of that increase. When that is being furnished perhaps the Minister will also let us know if these compensations are to be continuously incurred in future, or whether a decision has been come to as to a time limit within which the possibility of retirement and compensation can be taken to be considered by the Government.
This Vote covers payments of the ordinary pensions under the Superannuation Act of Civil Servants who have retired on or after the 1st April 1922, from all Departments of the Civil Service, excepting the Post Office, the Revenue Department, and one or two small Departments whose pensions are charged on special funds—that is the Congested Districts Board and the Intermediate Education Board. The number of pensioners who have retired in the ordinary course is as yet very small, and the ordinary charges under sub-heads (a) and (b) are consequently of small amounts. The additional allowances paid to such officers are charged under sub-head (c), and certain gratuities to non-pensionable people under sub-head (d). Those who retired under Article 10 of the Treaty retired under conditions not less favourable than those given by the Act of 1920—the Government of Ireland Act —and under the terms of that Act, I think there was a period of seven years during which Civil Servants had the right of electing whether they would serve or not under the Government. Of course they would be entitled during any of these seven years to retire. Some retired immediately, and others retire occasionally, as time goes on. The number recently has not been considerable. Pensions of Civil Servants who had retired from the Departments I have mentioned before the 1st April are still being paid by the British Government, and the payments made by them are covered, partly from this Government and partly from the Government of Northern Ireland. They were, as it were, servants of the whole country. A proportional amount is payable by the Government of the Saorstát and by the Northern Government. The proportion of the Saorstát will form the subject of discussion, and the sum inserted under sub-head "H"—£135,000—is, therefore a conjectural sum. Sub-heads "B.B." and "C.C." cover allowances paid as compensation, under Article 10 of the Treaty, to Civil Servants and other public officers who have retired in consequence of the change of Government or who have been discharged by the Government. The annual allowances are charged to sub-head "B.B." and a lump sum, payable to persons under the Superannuation Act, 1909, is charged to "C.C." The number of allowances being paid at the time the Estimate was framed is shown in Part 3 of the Estimate. The number has slightly increased between that date and the present time. Sub-head I, which is the largest sub-head on the Vote, may give rise to some criticism. It represents the repayment by Saorstát Eireann of seventy-five per cent. of the pensions awarded to the Royal Irish Constabulary on disbandment, excluding persons recruited in Great Britain during the two years preceding the Truce, and the ordinary Pensions payable to the R.I.C. This percentage has been agreed upon provisionally, without prejudice to the ultimate financial settlement. I have not had any representations from the prison officials in connection with superannuation.
With regard to the people who have taken advantage of their position under Clause 10 of the Treaty to get positions in other Departments?
I do not know of any such cases and I should say offhand that they would not be entitled to be re-employed; that would be to get pensions and also payment for services now. I do not think they would be entitled to the two.
Does that apply to disbanded Royal Irish Constabulary men?
I should say that it does. I do not think there is any case in which a disbanded Royal Irish Constabulary man drawing a pension is employed by us at present. I do not think there could be such a case.
That last point raises a question that would require a little explanation and the Dáil should be satisfied on it. This amount £1,350,000, is to be paid to the British Exchequer pending a final settlement. One might ask, I think, whether there is to be any other authority for paying this sum except this Vote? The Treaty under which this money is paid says that the Government of the Irish Free State agrees to pay fair compensation, on terms not less favourable than those accorded by the Act of 1920, to judges, members of police forces, etc., but so far as I remember no authorisation has been given as to the terms on which these pension shall be given. How much more favourable, for instance, than the Act of 1920 would allow or would make compulsory? We do not know what rate these pensioners are being paid and we do not know what conditions are being imposed upon them. We do not know, for instance, whether it is a fact that men in receipt of these pensions can receive other Government pay; whether men who were in the Royal Irish Constabulary are able to join the police force—the Civic Guard. No authorisation has been given, so far as I know, for the payment of this sum of £1,350,000, and we are presumably only handing over a sum to the British Exchequer according to their demand without knowing what conditions are being imposed before these pensions are paid. I think it would be necessary to have this matter brought before the Dáil formally so that we should know what the money is intended to cover, what pensions are to be paid, and the rates of these pensions and what conditions are attached to them. Whether the Government of the Free State has agreed with the British Government to pay compensation on terms much more favourable than those accorded by the Act of 1920 we do not know, and I suggest that it might be to the advantage of the Exchequer to withhold this payment for a time until a little further enlightenment has been given to the Dáil and perhaps some formal authorisation given to the Ministry for the expenditure of this money.
If there was one clause more than another to which I took strong objection in the Treaty it was the clause which authorised a pension; committing the Irish Free State to the extent that we are now asked to vote away this large amount of money. There was a time, I understand, during the operations of the Anglo-Irish war when representations, official or otherwise, I do not know, were made to the Royal Irish Constabulary to the effect that it would be in the interests of the country that they should terminate their service to the British Government which was carrying on as we know at that period. Certain numbers of men put loyalty to their country before their pockets and made sacrifices by resigning from the R.I.C. Hundreds and thousands of young men in Ireland who were too lazy to thin turnips or do other useful work joined the R.I.C., and I think that their services, which were services to the British Government at that time, should be paid for out of the British Imperial taxation rather than having it placed upon the shoulders of the Irish taxpayers.
The Deputy cannot argue that thesis now. At this stage it is impossible.
It is stated that it is agreed provisionally that Saorstát Eireann will pay 75 per cent. of the above pensions without prejudice to the ultimate financial settlement. Now, I contend that these Irishmen served England rather than Ireland during that period, and I object to the big pensions they are getting from this country. Generally speaking, they had only two or three years' service, and now we find that able-bodied Irishmen who served in the R.I.C. for that short period are disbanded and getting pensions of £100 a year. As well as that, many of them are getting positions and taking these positions below the ordinary trade union rates of pay in many business concerns, while at the same time we find twenty or thirty thousand men in this country unable to get any employment or consolation, except what they receive through the payment of the dole.
I hope that when these things come to be settled, if there is ever a settlement of these financial matters between the Free State and the British Government, that whatever Executive Council is functioning on behalf of the Irish people at the time, will impress upon the British Government the necessity of undertaking this liability which is a British liability, and which never should have been placed upon the shoulders of the Irish people.
The Deputy has very successfully made a speech upon one of the Clauses of the Treaty.
I was just going to point that out.
And it is as well that the Deputy should know that.
The 75 per cent. is provisional, and is open to consideration. It is well known that in all these questions of an accountancy character which arise, some arrangement must be arrived at. I think that, taking them all round, we have got favourable provisional rates. This one may not be too favourable to us, but one cannot have the best of all bargains. This particular one may be to our prejudice to the extent of 10 per cent., but in carrying out our part of the arrangement we are carrying out the strict letter of the Treaty under terms "not less favourable." This means exactly what they are receiving; it did not mean more favourable, and that they have got terms more than favourable.
I take it it is the object of the Free State to make it more favourable.
Yes, if they could afford it.
I want to know whether you have done so.
The people have got exactly what they were entitled to get. It does not mean that they got more. Some people's interpretation means a good deal more than what was given by the Act of 1920, but we are not liable for more than was asked under the Act of 1920. It was not contemplated in the interpretation the British Government made. There is nothing except £1,350,000 that represents anything for which we are liable, and the same applies to the Civil Service so far as the application of that Act is concerned, and they have been considered on terms not less favourable.
Question put and agreed to.