I move the adjournment until Wednesday, 4th July, at 3 o'clock.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE DAIL. - SANITARY CONDITIONS OF JAILS AND BARRACKS IN WHICH PRISONERS ARE DETAINED.
I desire to draw the attention of the Dáil to the insanitary condition of the jail in Wicklow. On account of rumours the Wicklow Council directed their Sanitary Officer to inspect the gaol, and admission was refused. The reason that I bring forward this motion is that my town is a seaside resort, and we are afraid of an epidemic. I also wish to state that the most friendly relations exist between soldiers in the barracks and the civilians in the town, as also between the prisoners and the Governor and soldiers in charge. In the interests of all concerned, an inspection should be made of the gaol, and those grievances should be removed. This jail had been condemned by the British military authorities for over fifteen years. The windows and doors are broken, so what must the inside be like? The prisoners are confined, three in each cell. Seventeen out of 103 have mattresses. The remainder of the prisoners in the cells are sleeping on the bare floor, and it is only within the last week that some straw has been brought into the prison. A number of these prisoners have been ill owing to the stench coming from the bottom cells. One is in hospital from double pneumonia, and if a death takes place it will not be in the interest either of the Government or the townspeople. The happy relations hitherto existing will cease to exist if a crisis takes place. This being a seaside resort, the people are dependent on the holiday makers who come to Wicklow. As this is very warm weather, and such a number of prisoners are confined, the matter is a very serious one. I am not aware that any Act has been passed which denies the right of the Sanitary Authority to visit the prisoners. As to the relationship between the prisoners and the Governor, it is of the best. The prisoners cook for themselves, but, unfortunately, the food that sick prisoners require is not available. There are seventeen prisoners in very ill-health at the present time. An appeal was sent by the Commandant of the prisoners to the Governor for some extra exercise in a larger space, and also they asked for more lavatory accommodation. The water supply is insufficient. They also appealed for milk for the sick patients. The doctor, who visits the place, resides in Gorey, and at the present time a doctor should give a daily visit when the number of prisoners is so large. Out of 103 prisoners one is in hospital suffering from pneumonia, 14 are ill in bed; 24 are ill, but not in bed, and about 30 are generally unwell.
These prisoners have appealed to the Governor, but up to the present they have received no reply. While we hold the Ministers here technically responsible they may not be aware of those complaints generally, and I am sure when they are brought to their notice they will have a number of prisoners removed to a more suitable place. There are 30 of the prisoners in—merely for their political opinions—and the majority of this 30 have signed an undertaking over two months ago. One man is up to 70 years of age, and there are amongst them, young boys. I ask that those men should be released as they have signed their undertakings, and as there are no charges against them. The space for exercise is a very small one for men able to take exercise. It is 45 yards by 25 yards for a number of prisoners. We appeal to the Ministers to have an inquiry into the whole matter, and it would not only be in the interest of the prisoners, but in the interest of the town. As I have explained, we are of opinion in Wicklow that if something is not done immediately an epidemic may break out. The Medical Officer of Health said to the prisoners that he could not do much for the men who were either lying in bed or lying on the floor. He suggested to give them iodine and something else. On the 25th June an appeal was sent from the Commandant of the prisoners to the Governor.
What is bad for the prisoners is equally bad for the soldiers on guard, because they have to live in the same cells. I believe the Governor, to show his friendship, and because of the good feeling that existed between the soldiers and prisoners, gave up his own bed to some of the prisoners who were ill. The following letter was sent by the Commandant:—
I enclose herewith a list of men who are now ill in bed and who are otherwise unwell, and I must draw your special attention to the following, which require immediate remedy, as, otherwise, I can only inform you that very many men will have their health permanently injured, if detained under existing conditions, for a very much longer period.
He goes on to explain about the lavatory and all the other things that are in a bad way. There are no washing facilities, and all the conditions tend to ill-health. I am sure it is not the intention of any man—though people outside may say otherwise—or of the Government, to injure the health of any prisoner while in their charge. I would ask them to have inquiry made in this case and to have the grievances remedied, not alone in the interests of the prisoners, but in the interests of the civil population. I am referring only to the jail in my own constituency, and when I bring forward the question, I trust that the wrongs will be righted, and that the prisoners will have little to complain of in a short time. It is impossible to improve the conditions of the jail. Under the British system prisoners were not asked to remain there over-night. If the trial of a prisoner did not come off before the County Court Judge in time, he was brought to Dublin. We do not want to treat prisoners in a way in which criminals were not treated under the British law. We should treat them in a way which would enable them to forget the past, so that each one would work for the benefit of the country in the future.
I wonder whether I am in order or not, or whether the Deputy raised this question only in connection with the gaol in his constituency?
He raised the question generally, but he confined himself to Wicklow.
I would like to voice my opinion with regard to the visits of sanitary officers to the different jails. In the town of Athlone there were about 900 prisoners at one time. I see the Minister for Defence shakes his head at that which gives me the impression that he disputes the figure. In any event, there were between 700 and 800 prisoners, and the space for exercise was not sufficient. The washing facilities were inadequate. General McKeon got the prisoners to be a little more careful with themselves, and through doing so, probably they have succeeded in improving the conditions. However, I would like that the Sanitary Officers and the Visiting Justices should be allowed to inspect all these prisons and see how the prisoners are being looked after. They are prisoners of the Army Council, and the Army Council must be responsible for them while under their charge. If any of these men contract disease through neglect, bad food or bad sanitary arrangements, and if they die, then there is nothing else but to accuse the Army authorities. I do not want to say harsh things, because I anticipate that in the near future the prisons in Ireland will be empty. I certainly want the Minister for Defence to release as many of those prisoners as possible.
Deputy Everett did not give notice of that.
On the question of their health, they cannot possibly be looked after in a prison where there are such numbers of them. They could be much better cared for at home. I would ask the Minister for Defence to see that visiting justices, sanitary officers and outside doctors should be allowed to visit all the jails.
I hope I made myself perfectly clear that most friendly relations exist between the prisoners and their guard. They have no complaint but on the question of food. In other places the treatment may be different, but in Wicklow Jail the food is of the best and their relationship with the guard is of the very best. They only complain that the food is too coarse for sick men.
As I understand Deputy Everett, while he may have the idea of the welfare of the prisoners in mind, he has brought this matter up, not so much from the prisoners' point of view, as in the interests of public health. Some time ago a discussion took place here on which some of us requested that the sub-sanitary officers in the various towns should be allowed into the barracks. I am still of opinion that that is absolutely necessary in the interests of public health. Apart altogether from the prisoners, the soldiers in the different barracks are living under intolerable conditions. I know that in Wexford the medical officer attached to the barracks resigned because of that fact.
"The sanitary conditions of jails and barracks in which prisoners are detained." Now, Deputy Corish succeeded himself one evening in getting a very strict ruling on this question, and if it hits Deputy Corish now he must be satisfied.
I quite understand that, but if the soldiers and prisoners are in the one barracks, I think I can raise this matter. I think if I can prove that, in consequence of prisoners being housed in barracks, it is not beneficial to the health of the soldiers, I will be in order in raising it. Some time ago, as I said, the medical officer attached to the Wexford unit resigned because some of his representations in connection with this matter were not listened to, and the sanitary arrangements were not, according to what he thought, in the interests of public health. Another doctor was appointed and there was no more about it. If the sanitary officers appointed by the councils were permitted to visit barracks and prisons this sort of thing would not go on, and I say again that it is in the interests of public health that these people should be allowed in. During the period which we have gone through, officers and people in charge of barracks were not able to give the attention to these matters that they required. That is quite understood. But if you have visits from sanitary officers these things could be attended to. The English Government used to permit their barracks to be visited by the sanitary officers, and I do not see any reason why the Irish Government, which ought to be more interested in public health, would not do the same. I would press this point again and hope that the Minister for Defence will reconsider the matter from this point of view, and allow the sanitary officers to visit the barracks.
I would suggest to the Minister for Defence that if he released all the prisoners it would relieve congestion in the various jails and he would save himself a lot of trouble.
There are such a large number of prisoners that we are necessarily restricted in our accommodation for them. The Government has spent a very large sum of money in providing suitable and adequate accommodation. If there are any places in which prisoners are housed in anything like unsuitable conditions it is principally as a result of the shortage of accommodation produced by the destruction carried out by the prisoners themselves in other places. Wicklow Jail would not be used for prisoners but for that particular destruction. We are quite aware of the unsatisfactory condition of things existing in Wicklow Jail. The matter has been under special observation and investigation by us, and it is not proposed to continue it as a prison. An idea of the shortening of accommodation for prisoners produced by destruction by prisoners is given by the figures which I have here. In Newbridge damage to the premises was £8,500; at Maryborough damage to the extent of £5,500 was done; at Mountjoy to the extent of £9,000, and at Hare Park Camp to the extent of £130.
As I say there are places where the present conditions are not ideal. Just as the conditions in Wicklow are not ideal for the prisoners, neither are the conditions in Wicklow ideal for the troops. We want to give as little as possible unnecessary inconvenience in taking buildings from the people generally, and Wicklow Jail being there, we have made the best use of it up to the present, and it has not been satisfactory, but we could have provided better accommodation for the prisoners there if this particular destruction had not taken place. We are, at the present moment, clearing out for the purpose of handing them back to the civil authorities certain of the jails. For instance, Waterford Jail has been entirely cleared out yesterday. The greater portion of Mountjoy has been evacuated also, and it is proposed to clear in a very short time Limerick Jail. The necessity for putting the Ministry of Home Affairs in a proper position for dealing with their particular side of the question has delayed rather longer than we anticipated the clearing out of Wicklow Jail, but the conditions there are kept under close observation, and it is anticipated it will be cleared shortly. On the question of the general sanitary and other conditions in prisons, a very considerable amount of propaganda—and propaganda is described in Irregular documents as the art of spreading the truth, "truth" underlined—has been carried on as regards the present general conditions. I feel it necessary, therefore, to place before the Dáil, as this particular question has arisen here, the report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, who sent a mission here recently, and who were permitted any facilities that they required to visit any of the prisons. I propose to put the whole document on the Records of the Dáil, but there are certain extracts I would like to read here now. The Report states that:—
"As a result of numerous representations made to it on the subject of the treatment of prisoners in Ireland, the International Committee of the Red Cross, appointed MM. Schlemmer and Haccius to go to Dublin to obtain authority from the Irish Government to institute an inquiry of a purely nonpolitical and technical nature into the position of the said prisoners.
"The delegates of the International Committee of the Red Cross were received by Mr. Desmond Fitzgerald, Minister of External Affairs, Mr. Walshe, Secretary, and General Morrin, Director of Army Medical Services. A mutual understanding was arrived at as to the nature of the facts to be investigated, and as to the character of the intervention of the International Committee of the Red Cross so as to determine the exact lines in which the activity of the Delegates should be directed.
"Considering that the character of the International Committee of the Red Cross confers on it the right and the duty to intervene when an appeal is made to it, and when the principles of humanity, which should be recognised by the belligerents as much during wars as following them, are publicly involved; considering also that the nature of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and the experience gained by it offer every guarantee of the impartiality of its inquiries, and of the manner in which all leanings towards any but purely humanitarian considerations should be avoided—the Irish Government decided to grant the authority requested by the International Committee of the Red Cross, and to accord to the Delegates every facility for visiting the prisons and internment camps of the country and of making a report on the treatment of those detained in them.
"M. Schlemmer then returned to Geneva in order to report on the result of the negotiations, and on the welcome accorded by the Irish Government to the application of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
"M.R. Haccius was delegated to visit the prison camps from the point of view of their organisation and accommodation, and of the sanitary conditions of the internees. We give the following extracts of information from the report submitted by our Delegate:—
"‘The total number of prisoners and internees is about 11,500 men and 250 women. Our Delegate visited the principal camps comprising a total of 7,369 prisoners. The treatment of these prisoners is devoid of all hostile spirit and the general principles adopted by the 10th International Conference of the Red Cross are observed. The Government refuses the status of "prisoners of war" to the prisoners, but in reality treats them as such.'
"The Delegate particularly draws the attention of the Committee to the fact that nowhere did he find a wounded or sick prisoner left without medical treatment. On the contrary, he found everywhere a carefully organised medical service. The serious accusations made on this subject appear to him unfounded.
"The Delegate was not able to visit the prison at Kilmainham where 250 women are detained, but has no reason to believe that the treatment there is different to that adopted at Mountjoy. Thirteen of those prisoners had been on hunger-strike since the day of their arrest to obtain their release or immediate trial, and not as a protest against the prison regime. This fact is, moreover, verified by their written statements. The Delegate did not consider it his duty to insist on getting into touch with these prisoners, fearing that his intervention, misinterpreted, would only encourage them to persist in their attitude, and give rise to a new case of strike. During his sojourn three of these prisoners were released.
"The buildings of the old ‘North Dublin Union' are in the course of alteration for the reception of those detained in Kilmainham. These buildings, with the surrounding gardens, will fulfil all desirable hygienic conditions.
"The instructions given by the International Committee of the Red Cross to its Delegate exclude certain representations and sworn inquiries bearing on individual complaints. It is a fact that searches have taken place in various private hospitals, but the working of these hospitals has not been interfered with. There are grounds for the complaints of overcrowding in Mountjoy Prison.
"The complaints regarding the prohibition of correspondence with prisoners' families, sanitary conditions, and food in the camps are unfounded."
With regard to certain of the camps visited, in the case of Tintown, where the number of prisoners is 3,200, they reported that there are 72 men in the infirmary, and 25 men in the surgical hospital, that "there are no epidemics, but that a certain number of men who arrived lately are affected with scurvy, and have been isolated from the rest while being treated. Wash houses with water supply in the enclosure of the camp." The Mission reported on a visit to the internment camp at Gormanstown, that there are 1,500 prisoners there, and they found that there were 7 men in hospital, and that there were no epidemics. In Newbridge where there are 1,969 men they found there were 39 in the infirmary, and that each prisoner was provided with an iron bed, pillow, mattress, sheet and two blankets, such as in Tintown. They found that there was a great difference in the neatness of the rooms, and that this entirely depended on the prisoners themselves. In the same way in Mountjoy, "the interior service of the prison was kept clean by the prisoners themselves. Soap and materials supplied. There is a vast difference in the cleanliness of the cells. Some internees scour the floor, and keep their blankets well beaten, while others take no care to keep their cells clean."
Generally, they found that the greatest possible attention was paid to the conditions under which the prisoners were housed. The food, and the manner in which the food was cooked and provided, was good, and the sanitary accommodation was so adequate as to overflow the use to which the majority of the prisoners actually put it. In respect of Kilmainham, the Red Cross Delegation did not visit it, but as late as June 15th we find ladies writing from Kilmainham, and saying: "I almost forgot to tell you I am enjoying this place fine, and don't care how long it will last." Another writes: "Don't take any notice of the Bantry people's talk—this is a great place."
Were these sent to the Red Cross Delegation?
No.
How did you get them?
From Tralee Jail we get a prisoner writing: "I am having a grand time here, I don't want any underclothing, we get fully rigged out here, last week got a new suit, new boots, shirts and socks. So we are well away now." From Tintown a prisoner writes on the 25th June: "This is a fine healthy place, I was never in so good a form before." From the same place another prisoner writes: "We had a great day yesterday, we had all sorts of sports that you could mention, you could not have a better day outside, and we do have a dance now every evening—the best of gas."
He did not write from Wicklow.
From a Galway prisoner: "The Governor has told me just now that you heard I got beaten in Cleggan, but there wasn't a hand left on me." Another writes from Galway Jail also: "I am very well, T.G. I never felt better in my life. I could honestly declare that I am a stone heavier than the day I came to Galway. You know we have no work to do, and we are well treated in the line of everything to eat." I thought it necessary that that information should be put before the Dáil lest the making of conditions in Wicklow Jail—the matter of the general sanitary and other conditions in our prisons— would be misleading either to the Dáil or the public generally.
I ask the Minister to say would they be provided with beds while they remain there, and also would the patients be given milk, and a visit from a doctor daily. These are sick patients. We can prove they are sick, and it is no laughing matter. If any Deputy were in the same position he would not see it as a joke.
Any matter like that which is wrong in Wicklow Jail is fully under notice, and is getting attention.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.50.