I beg to move:—"That a sum not exceeding £67,060 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge, which which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1924, for the salaries and expenses of the Oireachtas." (A sum of £28,000 has been voted on account).
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - OIREACHTAS.
I think this is perhaps an appropriate occasion to raise a matter which many Deputies have already discussed in this Dáil, and ask the Minister for Finance to say if anything can be done in connection with it. I refer to item (b) covering travelling expenses of members—£5,500. I am certainly under the impression that that sum could be considerably reduced.
An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair at this stage.
It would effect a saving to the finances of the State and convenience members if we had something in the nature of season tickets conceded to members. On the last occasion this matter was raised the Minister promised to go into the matter with the Transport Department. I would like to know if any advance has been made in the direction of securing season tickets for members to their constituencies. Has the matter been placed before the Railway Companies through the Clearing House, and have the railways definitely refused to meet the Government in this matter? I fail to see any good reason why the Railway Companies in a matter of this kind could not meet a Government. Department without compromising anything, especially as they make concessions to cattle traders and other sections of the community. I would be glad to know if any representations have been made, and if it is a fact that the Railway Companies, to whom representations have been made, have definitely declined to make any concession.
There are one or two items under "E" on which I hope the Minister will throw some light, dealing with salaries, wages and allowances to officers and staff of the Oireachtas. There is one item, "Counsel £1,200 a year inclusive; one librarian and one assistant librarian." I do not know whether this is provision for the future. At the moment I do not think that these offices exist. I do not exactly know what is meant by provision for Counsel. I know that provision is made for legal advice through one of the Assistant Clerks in the Seanad, but I do not know that that position or anything similar to it is at the disposal of the Dáil.
It is provision for an examiner of Private Bills when that matter is settled.
I see. There is also a librarian and an assistant librarian Another matter that was raised before, and which I think it necessary to raise again, deals with the provision for an Officer of Communications between the two Houses. I can only presume that the officer is presumably engaged in some other capacity, because it seems to me that the services of an officer of this kind are not necessarily much availed of. I do not know if he is the channel through which communications, such as they are, pass between the two Houses, and as I say I can only come to the conclusion that he is perhaps engaged in some other capacity. If he is, then his remuneration should come under some other Vote. I am not at all objecting to that, or to the Officer personally, or to his having sufficient salary for the post, but I do not see exactly why it should come in under this Vote.
With regard to the first matter mentioned by Deputy Davin, in connection with season tickets, I had intended to take up that matter direct with the Companies, but, having regard to the fact that this is a small Dáil, and that a proper estimate of attendances and so on was not possible, I thought it better to leave it over until after the Election. I would then be in a position to speak for a very much larger number of persons who would be affected, and also in view of the fact that we were in communication with the Railway Companies on another matter I did not think it advisable to go into the question. With regard to the matter raised by Deputy O'Shannon, there is a librarian and an assistant librarian. The Librarian is "Sean Gall" (Mr. Kenny), who was in the Customs and Excise, and was formerly stationed at Goole. He is a historian of very considerable repute, and is at present engaged in the Castle. We had intended to get the library over here, but as our stay is limited, as far as these buildings are concerned, it did not appear to be good business to transfer the library for a short period and then remove it again. It is the intention, although the matter is not yet finally decided, to make what is known as the Castle Library available for the Oireachtas. Mr. Kenny has been there since his transfer from Goole. I think Deputy O'Shannon will probably know the name pretty well and will be satisfied with the appointment. As to the Assistant Librarian I think the Deputy is also acquainted with him. He was the Librarian of the old Dáil, Alderman Kelly. We had some money available from the old Dáil for the purchase of books, and he has been successful in getting some very valuable works. That particular service is defective just now by reason of the fact of not having premises for the Dáil and Seanad, I mean what we would call a permanent or semipermanent location for them. If premises were available I think there would be no cause of complaint with regard to the services of the two officers in question. As to the Counsel the Ceann Comhairle has answered the point that was raised.
I do not know if the Deputy understood quite clearly. It is intended that there will be Counsel to the Ceann Comhairle who will also be examiner of Private Bills. When this Estimate was prepared the figure £1,200, inclusive, was inserted to cover such an appointment, should it be made. No such appointment has been made. As was reported from the Committee on Procedure to the Dáil some time ago, Standing Orders for Private Bills are being prepared, and a fee will be paid to a barrister for assistance in preparing and drafting Private Bills. Since no Private Bill Orders are actually in force, and since no Private Bill business is being done, no examiner has been appointed. Therefore the figure is one that is merely intended to cover the appointment should the appointment be found necessary within the financial year.
With regard to the Officer of Communications, I have nothing to add. He has no other position than that of Officer of Communications between the Dáil and Seanad. I do not know that I can say any more than I have already said with regard to the particular post.
With reference to the explanation in regard to the Librarian and the Assistant Librarian I am perfectly well satisfied, but I think it well that the statement that the President has made with reference to these two gentlemen should have been made. So far as I know from their reputation in the past they are quite competent and on no personal grounds could I have any objection to them at all. But I think it is well we should be told that there was a library being made available for the Oireachtas and that it was in competent hands.
I quite recognise the difficulty of putting it at present at the disposal of the Oireachtas on account of the want of premises. I am not satisfied with regard to the position of the Officer of Communications, because it does not seem to me that there is anything like sufficient work for an appointment of that kind. At all events there has not been sufficient work for an appointment of the kind; I do not know whether there will be in the future or not, and I think it is not satisfactory from the point of view of public finance that a post which merely means occasional, and very occasional, handling of communications as between one House and the other should be created at a salary like this. I am not at all satisfied, but I am satisfied about the other positions.
Some time ago I read a statement by the Minister for Finance regarding the sacrifices made by members of the Seanad, and I quite agree to a certain extent. In that statement he indicated that there were some members of the Seanad who returned their £30 per month. I have calculated the amount and I find that provision to the full amount for all the members of the Seanad is made in the figure of £20,830. I take it, therefore, that every Senator is drawing his full allowance of £30 per month; or is it that provision is made in case of emergency? I would like also to know if every member of the Dáil, including some who very seldom attend, is drawing his £30 per month. I think it is quite unfair that members of the Dáil who very seldom come here should think it advisable to draw this £30 from the State without giving service to the State for that figure. I hope such a position will not arise in the case of any of those who seek election to the next Dáil, and I should like to know how it is such Deputies think it reasonable that they have rendered service to the State for which they take that particular amount.
I beg to draw the Deputy's attention to the fact that although the Constitution provides for the payment of members the Dáil makes provision only for expenses. I know one member who did not attend here very often, but who is put to very much heavier expense than any other member.
Before putting this Vote I think I should tell the Dáil that some time ago the Dáil appointed a Committee consisting of The President, An Cathaoirleach of the Seanad and myself, to go into the question of the appointment and remuneration of members of the Oireachtas Staff, and it is expected that a Report dealing with that will be before the two Houses next week. It has taken a considerable time, for a variety of reasons, but the Report will be before the Dáil and it will be open, of course, to discussion. It is really upon the basis of that Report that a good deal of the moneys asked for in this Estimate will be actually expended in the course of the Financial Year.
Vote put and agreed to.