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Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 2 Nov 1923

Vol. 5 No. 10

NATIONAL FINANCES. - RETRENCHMENT PROPOSALS.

Perhaps I may be permitted to intervene and cut across the line of this discussion. As we have reached the stage when the credit of Saorstát Eireann is for the first time to be put to the test of an appeal for funds to be borrowed in the open market, I think it is proper that I should acquaint the House with such particulars of the financial situation as will enable an accurate judgment to be formed of how we actually stand. I do so all the more readily because numerous irresponsible reports and comments on the financial situation of the Saorstát and the supposed intentions of the Government in the matter have been given currency for some time past, and it is desirable that authoritative information should be available to prevent the growth of misleading ideas. I can only ask the House now to judge the position by reference not to reports from irresponsible quarters but to plain facts which I shall endeavour to place before it as lucidly as possible.

The Government of this country, although gravely preoccúpied with other difficult problems, has now for over a year and a half carried on its financial business successfully without being obliged to look for assistance outside of Ireland. The idea that seems to be entertained in some quarters, that this country as a State is going to be dependant for money on outside capitalists, is a mere delusion, and it has been propagated without encouragement or inspiration from here. It is important to have it understood that the public finance of the country does not need to be conducted, and will not, under the present Government, be conducted in a manner that can render us subservient to any external interests.

I will ask Deputies in the first instance to consider the Statement of Exchequer transactions for the half year ended on the 30th September. This Statement, which has been circulated, is the usual weekly Exchequer Statement as issued in the Iris Oifigiúil of 2nd October.

The important figure on the Receipt side of the Statement is the tax revenue which, taking the several heads together, shows an aggregate of £12,235,000 for the half year, as compared with an Estimate of £20,550,000 for the whole year. I am glad to be able to say that since the original estimate was prepared I have received a revised statement of estimated tax revenue which shows for the whole year an increase of £1,650,000 beyond the original estimate. An increased yield in the non-tax revenue of the Post Office is also expected.

The substantial increase of revenue that we anticipate is attributable largely to abnormal causes, such as the extent of income tax arrears.

The receipts of the half year from non-revenue sources represent borrowings which have been incurred under powers duly conferred on the Minister for Finance by Act of the Oireachtas. The items to which I wish to invite special attention are those under the head of Free State Bills and Free State Savings Certificates. The Bills are short-dated securities which have been taken up by the banks for the purpose of tiding the Government over the interval that must elapse before the proceeds of a funding loan are available. The friendly relations existing between the Government and the banks, and the willingness of the banks to assist the Government in financing the public services in the most effective manner are factors which will be appreciated at their true value by intelligent observers of the present situation. The inherent soundness of the banking position in this country is an important financial asset which the Government have every desire to safeguard and defend.

The Savings Certificates to which I have referred were first introduced in the month of July. In the three months which have since elapsed we have raised from this source almost £300,000. The figure has increased from £220,000 as shown in the sheet to £293,000. I would ask Deputies specially to note this point, as one of the surest indications of the possibility of attracting the genuine savings of the people of this country into an investment which is used for the benefit of this country only, and enjoys a security guaranteed by this country alone. These certificates are of course an excellent investment for any citizen of the Free State from the point of view of yield and of the privilege of exemption from income tax. Organised measures will be taken shortly to bring the advantages of these Certificates directly to the notice of the public, but in the meantime the sale of them has, as is evident, been most encouraging, especially as no special effort has been made to force them into public notice.

Returning to the Exchequer Statement, I will refer briefly to the expenditure side of it. It is necessary to mention that the figures represent money issued out of the Exchequer which is not exactly the same thing as expenditure on public services in the period. But the amounts are sufficiently approximate for practical purposes. The expenditure on general public services amounts, on the basis of the issue shown in the statement, to a total of about 17½ millions for the half year as compared with about 9¾ millions for the corresponding half of the preceding year. About one million of this apparent increase of 7¾ millions is not a real increase, being only a disbursement occurring this year but not last, in respect of land purchase annuities which is offset by a corresponding receipt of the annuities themselves. The balance of the increase is due in the main to obvious and easily understood causes, namely to the facts that the Army charge and the compensation charge had not begun to make themselves felt fully during the same period last year, whereas they were very serious burdens this year.

In regard to compensation, it is well to have it known that the rate of discharge of awards has advanced rapidly during the past half year. There is, in fact, no room whatever at the present time for the complaints which used to be made six months ago about alleged delay in payment of awards made by the Compensation Commission. That Commission, which deals entirely with pre-truce damage, has made considerable progress with the issue of its awards, and the machinery set up by the Ministry of Finance has, for some time past, been working at a rate which has overtaken arrears, and keeps pace with the making of the awards by the Commission. Altogether over 2½ millions in cash had been paid out up to the end of September, the payments in that month alone reaching £430,000. The Army expenditure of the half-year has been on a heavy scale, the Exchequer issues for that service having amounted to £6,149,500 in the period. The Government have had constantly in mind the serious problem which this expenditure constitutes for the Saorstát, and have been engaged for some time in carrying out, through the Minister for Defence, administrative reforms designed not only to put a stop to the waste, which was largely inevitable under the active service conditions of a year ago, but to establish an orderly and systematic control of the whole spending machinery of the Army, with that efficiency which peace conditions should be expected to render practicable. Financially demobilisation is the problem of most interest, and, as regards this, the Dáil is aware that it has already been found possible to effect a large reduction of strength, by allowing a proportion of soldiers to return to civil life, according as the period for which they attested has been completed. As a consequence the strength of the Army, which was some time ago well over 50,000, has now fallen to nearly 35,000. In the next place, reductions have been effected in the high rates of pay which had been settled hurriedly in the troubled days when quick recruitment of an adequate force had to be the primary consideration. For some time past every soldier who is reattested for a further period is only accepted at a new scale of pay, the rate being for a private 2s. 6d. a day, as compared with the rate of 3s. 6d. heretofore paid. Again, it has been necessary to take steps for doing away with the expensive system of dependants' allowances heretofore applicable. Under the arrangement recently introduced no dependants' allowance will be payable in respect of soldiers reattested, beyond a marriage allowance, which has been fixed on a moderate scale. Previously the allowances were for N.C.O.'s and men:— Wife, 4s. per day; first child, 1s. 6d.; second child, 1s.; third and each additional child, 9d. Then, there were allowances for other dependants. The marriage allowance under the new arrangement is as follows:—All N.C.O.'s and men entitled to marriage allowance to allot at least 1s. a day towards the upkeep of their homes; the State will grant 1s. 6d. a day as marriage allowance, and additional allowances for children of 1s. a day for each of the first two children, and 6d. a day for each of the next two children. Four children is the largest number provided for, so that 3s. per day will be the maximum allowance on this basis.

The special units of the Army organised for protection work and marine duties have been almost entirely abolished or absorbed. As a result of these and other measures which have been or are being taken, it is proposed to bring the Army Estimate for next year down to about 4 millions, as against the total of nearly £10,700,000 for this year. As is indicated by the fact that Army expenditure for the half year ended on 30th September last was over 6 millions, the steps taken during the last six months to discharge Army liabilities in the country have made satisfactory progress. Current liabilities are being met in an effective manner, and such difficulties as still exist relate in the main to accounts outstanding from the period of turmoil where there is inevitable delay in getting evidence as to facts. A great deal of delay is occasioned by fraudulent and inflated claims which have been sent in and which necessitate a great deal of special investigation.

As regards expenditure generally, an opportunity of analysing past transactions will be afforded when the Appropriation Accounts, now in preparation, are available for the Public Accounts Committee. It will, I think, be of greater advantage at the moment if I explain in some detail the general course of policy that the Government propose to take henceforward.

Careful consideration has been given for some time past to the relation that at present exists between the revenue available from taxation, even on the present scale, on the one hand, and on the other hand the expenditure that is being incurred on the normal operations of Government; that is excluding Compensation Charges and that part of the Army charge which can be regarded as abnormal. As conditions have not yet had time to become definitely settled, and important parts of the administration are still, to some extent, in a state of transition, exact conclusions are difficult to reach. But on the best scrutiny of the facts available, it appears certain that the normal operations of Government at present entail an expenditure which exceeds revenue by at least something more than one million a year.

Now, whatever justification may exist for going outside of revenue to meet the abnormal expenditure on Compensation and the Army—and the justification in those cases is obvious—the Government are quite convinced that the normal public services must be financed out of revenue and not from borrowing. The evils of a contrary policy are familiar to all observers of the plight of those countries that have conducted their finances without regard to the necessity for budget equilibrium. To aim, accordingly, at reaching such equilibrium, is a guiding principle of the policy that the Government in the best interests of the country find it essential to pursue. Not only is it important to refrain from borrowing for the purpose of meeting such normal charges as should be borne by revenue, but it is important also to recognise that where there is borrowing to meet some legitimate capital need the annual charge in respect of the debt must be met out of revenue. It would manifestly be a spendthrift and ruinous procedure to have to borrow to pay interest on one's existing debts. It is the avoidance of this spendthrift procedure that I have in mind when I speak of aiming at budget equilibrium.

Now, we are spending on normal services at the present time at a rate which substantially exceeds the collection of revenue. This is a definite danger sign which the Government are bound not to ignore. It is specially necessary not to ignore it now, as there is the absolute certainty before us, that the position, if not properly handled, meanwhile will be aggravated next year by a heavy addition of new and inevitable debt charge. Between Exchequer borrowings and securities issued for payment of compensation, it is necessary to contemplate a debt charge of perhaps two millions next year. Moreover, recent legislation has put new burdens on the State, such as Army pensions and the completion of land purchase, the effects of which will be appreciable. For relief from this situation it is not permissible to rely upon a higher yield of revenue from existing taxes. A good year is about to be replaced by a bad year in the computation of income tax, and the general depression of agriculture and industry in this country during recent years are adverse factors of great importance. The appreciation of money and lower prices and incomes generally have a similar tendency.

What, then, can the Government do to bridge this gap of several millions next year, between revenue on the present basis and expenditure in respect of normal services? The obvious alternatives are higher taxes or lower public expenditure, or partly one and partly the other.

It is unnecessary for me to dilate upon the evils of high taxation. It discourages thrift, retards industry, and increases unemployment. Three of our taxes, the beer duty, the income tax, and the Corporation Profits tax, are actually higher than the corresponding taxes in Great Britain at the present time. In addition, our postage rates are heavier than the British. These higher imposts have an adverse effect on workers and all other sections of the community. As regards the direct imports in particular, the Free State producer of any given article who has to reckon with them is handicapped as regards the sale of that article, even in the Free State, as compared with the British producer of the same article, who is not subject to the same imposts.

On general grounds the Government cannot contemplate the imposition on the country of any heavier burden of taxation than it now bears. It is rather the aim of our policy to bring about a lessening of that burden at the earliest possible date, and it is even hoped that by adopting measures of retrenchment, such as I am about to indicate, the possibility of reducing taxation in some slight degree may be considered in relation to the next Budget.

Retrenchment, then, is the only course open to the Government if taxes are to be kept from exceeding even the present high level. Economy is an unpopular policy among those who do not appreciate the true wisdom of it and who will not face facts. Even among those who admit its propriety there are many who admire it in its general aspect but become critical when it is applied in some particular sphere of expenditure in which they take an interest. The Government fully realise all this, but are convinced that in pursuing economy in a practical manner they can count on the support of every Deputy in the Dáil who wishes to keep outside of the Saorstát those easy but improvident methods of public finance that have worked themselves to their logical conclusion in the economic breakdown of certain continental countries.

It is proposed, accordingly, to aim at securing forthwith substantial savings throughout the public services, distributing the inevitable sacrifice as fairly as circumstances permit. As a help towards understanding the position which has to be met I have had prepared for Deputies a special statement, giving in the light of the best information at present available, a revised estimate in summary form of the revenue and expenditure of the current year. This statement shows that after meeting, estimated commitments of every kind, normal and abnormal, there would be an excess of expenditure over revenue amounting to about 18½ millions. An analysis of the figures on which the statement is based discloses that even if we exclude every expenditure which can fairly be treated as justifying recourse to borrowing, there still remains a deficit, as I have already stated, of at least over a million a year. This figure, however, does not give us the full measure of the savings that it is necessary to effect in order to reach Budget equilibrium. We must add to it a further amount of over two millions in respect of next year's debt service. Thus savings of between three and four millions should be aimed at in order to effect a balance, and even then further savings would be required before the present level of taxation could be lowered. Savings on such a scale are not possible without retrenchment over the whole field of the public services, wherever there is a discretion for applying it.

A survey is accordingly at present in progress of every head of public expenditure for the purpose of ascertaining where curtailment can be effected with the least detriment to the public interest. In the civil departments generally the fall in bonus is producing in the course of time an appreciable diminution in the cost of staff. It is reckoned that the provision for bonus over the whole of the current year's estimates amounts to a total of about £1,350,000. This is already down to about one-half of the corresponding figure for the time when the cost of living was at the peak. For the purpose of next year's estimates the provision to be inserted for bonus will be calculated on an index figure five points below that adopted in the current year. If the index figure were to fall more than these five points the bonus payable would of course be likewise reduced to such extent as the terms of the scale provide. In regard to the Civil Service generally, there are two fairly distinct spheres in which economy may be sought. The first of these is the sphere dependent on policy, for which the ordinary example is whether a particular service should be retained or not, and as to this I do not propose to say more at present than that we are considering carefully the justification of existing Government services and will not hesitate to seek Parliamentary sanction for the scrapping of any services, the maintenance of which cannot be fully justified. The other sphere is in relation to the cost of administration of such Government services as we have at the moment in existence, and this resolves itself largely into an examination of the staffing of Government Departments so as to ensure that both in numbers of staff and in scales of salaries our staff expenditure is consistent with the strict economy that is necessary at present. In the case of all Government services, and particularly in the case of those services which were administered as purely Irish Departments before the change of Government, I am taking steps to ensure that the administrative cost of the services for the Free State will compare favourably with the administrative cost of the services for the whole of Ireland, and will reflect the loss of work represented by the present exclusion of the Six Counties. In the case of one or two Departments, the Revenue Department and the Post Office, which were administered from London prior to the change of Government, it will of course be appreciated that the creation of a spearate administration is an obstacle to reduction in the cost of administration. In the Post Office, however, where a majority in numbers of the entire Civil Service is employed the steps which have been taken are already producing an appreciable result. The effect will not have time to make itself fully felt in the present financial year as some of the steps are of recent date, but it is expected that in next financial year the expenditure of the Post Office will have fallen by perhaps £250,000 a year below its recent level. The net loss on the working of that Department should be reduced not only by that amount but by a further amount representing anticipated increase of revenue due to the resumption of more normal conditions in the country. The staffing generally of the Civil Service is under constant review and I have issued instructions to all Government Departments that no vacancies can be filled and no fresh appointments can be made without my sanction, and to obtain this it will be necessary for Departments to prove their needs. At the moment we have more than one heavy task on hand of a temporary character, for example, payment of compensation, collection of arrears of rent, and for these temporary tasks we have had to engage additional temporary staff so that at the moment our expenditure on staff, apart altogether from fluctuations in the cost of living, is higher than it is likely to be in a normal year.

The instructions which have already been issued from the Ministry of Finance for preparation of Estimates for the next financial year lay particular stress on the necessity for all departments carrying out a strict scrutiny of their existing activities. It is explained that in general the financial position is such as to preclude sanction being given for additional charges on public funds, and that the possibility of sanction being given for any new service will normally depend on a clear demonstration that a compensating reduction is being effected in some essential existing service.

Of our total normal expenditure, about 10 millions, that is nearly one-half, is devoted to education in all forms and pensions, including Old Age Pensions. It is evident that the large saving that must be effected will not be feasible unless a fair contribution is made by these services which account for so large a part of our total charges.

As regards education, the Government feel that the time has come when the salaries of National School Teachers must be reviewed. I should explain that the present scale of salaries for these Teachers was fixed in November, 1920, on a basis which made no provision for variation in respect of changes in the cost of living. At the time when the negotiations leading up to the agreement fixing the salaries were taking place the cost of living was still rising, and the agreement was signed at the time when the cost of living was actually at its highest point, being 176 per cent. above pre-war. As Deputies know, the cost of living figure has steadily fallen since the end of 1920, and with it the salaries of Public Servants generally. A Civil Servant, whose salary at the end of 1920 was between £150 and £500 a year, has suffered a reduction varying 30 per cent. at the lower salary to 25 per cent. at the higher salary. Salaries outside the Civil Service have been affected in a similar manner, and we feel that it is not unreasonable that the very decided fall in the cost of living should be reflected in the emoluments of National School Teachers.

at this stage resumed the Chair.

The salaries fixed in 1920 were anything from three to three and a half times the salaries obtaining before 1914, and even admitting that those salaries were abnormally low we cannot justify continuing to pay salaries so many times the pre-war salaries when the index figure of the cost of living shows an increase over pre-war of 80 per cent. If the ordinary Civil Service bonus were paid on the pre-war salaries the resulting remuneration would be approximately only half of the present salaries.

In view of these general figures, the Government have decided that an immediate cut must be made in the remuneration of the Teachers. They do not want to take drastic action at short notice and to make the full reduction, which the facts appear to justify, at once. They, therefore, propose that a reduction of 10 per cent. should be made with effect from the 1st of November, and that an inquiry should be set on foot immediately for the purpose of exploring the question as to what further adjustment may be proper.

Another definite economy that the Government are obliged to propose is in regard to Old Age Pensions. When these pensions were first introduced in 1908 the rate in the most usual case was 5s. As the result of war legislation it now stands at 10s. It was not intended at any time that the pension should provide the recipient with a complete and independent means of livelihood.

The 10/- rate was adopted when the cost of living had risen to 120 per cent. above pre-war and was still mounting steadily. It remained at 10/- when the cost of living index figure was 176 per cent. above pre-war. Judged in this light alone, it is manifest that a fall in the cost of living index figure to the present level of 80 per cent. above pre-war makes a prima facie case for substantial reduction of the pension.

Apart from the consideration of the pensioners themselves, it is necessary in this matter also to bear in mind particularly the weight of the burden imposed on the State. In 1920-21 the charge for Old Age Pensions in the whole of Ireland was £4,463,500, the total revenue of the whole of Ireland being then £48,845,000. At present the charge for Old Age Pensions in the Free State is £3,277,000, the total revenue (according to the revised statement which has been circulated) being £24,761,405. That is, we are paying three-quarters of the all-Ireland pension charge of 1920-21 with only half the all-Ireland revenue of the same year.

In 1920-21 the charge for Old Age Pensions in Scotland was £2,456,000, the revenue of that country for the same year being £119,753,000. In 1920-21 Scotland spent 2 per cent. of her revenue on Old Age Pensions. At the same time Ireland spent 9.1 per cent. To-day the Free State spends 13.2 per cent. The fact must be recognised that the resources of the country are not equal to the present burden of the Old Age Pension charge. For this the pensioners may attribute a high degree of responsibility to those who have wasted and impoverished the country during the past two years. The Government, in their desire to extend every consideration possible to the old people affected, are confining their proposal in this matter to the most moderate limit permissible, and accordingly will not ask for a reduction of more than one shilling on the present rate of pension. Legislation on this matter will be introduced almost immediately and will deal with some points about means and other details, as well as the actual pension rate.

These economies that I have mentioned represent merely the application in the sphere of Government of measures of the same sort as those which have to be endured by other sections of the community. It cannot be contended that because certain classes of persons receive their money from the State they should, at the cost of the taxpayer, be shielded by the State from the harsh winds that blow upon the taxpayer himself. Civil servants, working men, soldiers, indeed all persons earning salary or wages throughout the country, have been experiencing, for some time, a reduction of at least their nominal receipts, and it would be improper for the State to continue to strain its resources by not aiming at some corresponding reduction of the receipts of teachers and old age pensioners. Reduced public charges will tend to operate towards reducing the cost of living, and thereby compensate at least to some extent for the lowering of emoluments now proposed.

The general course of policy that I have now perhaps sufficiently indicated will, I hope, be taken as evidence of a recognition on the part of the Government that the time has come both for the State itself and all sections of the community to accommodate themselves to the economic and monetary charges that have been operating in our midst for a long time past. The cost of living index figures show conclusively that, whatever particular exceptions may be adduced, the cost of living in general has diminished to a marked extent during the past three years. The purchasing power of money has grown, and therefore a man may be as well off as before even though he may suffer a large reduction in the nominal amount of his salary or wages. If it was only reasonable, as everyone admits, that remuneration should increase in nominal amount during that period of war-time inflation when the pound was steadily losing in purchasing power, it is equally reasonable, and indeed necessary, that remuneration should diminish in nominal amount in consequence of the subsequent recovery by the pound of much of its former loss of purchasing power. The same accommodation to circumstances is required from those dealers in commodities who still fail to appreciate that the progressive inflation and rapidly falling value of money which afforded some excuse for and rendered possible the scale of war profits have ceased to be available in support or justification of any attempt to secure a similar scale of profits now.

For the purpose of facilitating the transition to that nominally though not really lower level of prices and wages which present conditions warrant and require, the Government, without hazarding the general pursuit of economy, are desirous that such resources as they can provide shall be applied in the most beneficial manner. Continuance of State aid to housing, which is also vital on other grounds, offers a prospect of being useful in this direction, and the Government will be prepared to formulate a suitable scheme as soon as there is evidence of a reasonable adjustment of both prices and wages in the building trade. Between this scheme and the requirements of reinstatement for which large sums have now been put at the disposal of compensation claimants, a considerable contribution is made to the problem of affording employment for demobilised soldiers and others. In addition, the Government expect to be in a position to finance to the extent of perhaps a million and a quarter, a generous scheme of works for the improvement and repair of roads over the next eighteen months. The money for this scheme would not involve any addition to present State charges but would consist mainly of the proceeds, as at present, of motor vehicle duties plus the special rate which County Councils are required to pay to the Exchequer under recent legislation as their share of the compensation liability arising from the events of the last two years.

It is an essential feature of these schemes that they cannot be initiated until definite recognition is given to the fact that the Government, in the financial and economic interests of the country, cannot consent to allow them to be conducted in a manner that would raise or keep prices or wages above the nominal level at which they should fairly stand at the present time.

I have now, I trust, said sufficient about expenditure to enable Deputies to follow the general trend of policy. I have sketched the path by which it is hoped to arrive at budget equilibrium. In the meantime, heavy capital issues that are not a proper charge against revenue are required. The finding of money to finance these issues for compensation and the Army is a task that cannot be evaded or deferred. The magnitude of the task is still a matter of some surmise, but it is at least possible to be assured that it is not more than the present resources of the country can bear. The brunt of the abnormal expenditure on the Army has already, we may hope, been borne, and the balance yet to come should not prove too formidable. The sums required for compensation are still, to a great extent, indeterminate at least as regards the period since the Truce, but we know at least that the day of destruction is gone and that no new liabilities are arising on this account.

The Government have heretofore borrowed for these necessary purposes mainly by having recourse to the Irish banks. Our National Debt up to date has reached the total of £5,990,500 of which the banks have provided £3,795,000 by discounting bills. I need not tell the Dáil that it is not good policy for a Government to pursue too far the course of borrowing from the banks. Borrowing in this form, while it can provide a temporary but fallacious show of prosperity, is peculiarly liable to cause instability of monetary conditions and to end by necessitating measures which depress trade and create unemployment. It is, therefore, intended to seek a loan within the Free State at an early date for the purpose of attracting the national savings into our own securities. The country has now had sufficient experience of its new national and international status and of the possibility of maintaining stable conditions of administration to justify a confidence on the part of the Government that the citizens who have money to invest will now be prepared to buy the stock of the Free State with at least as much faith as they have shown in the past in investing their money abroad. The Free State is not a new country like Australia or Canada that must depend largely on the importation of capital from outside. Our people, on the contrary, have heretofore provided capital in large amounts for other countries, and especially by way of investment in the Government and industrial securities of Great Britain. They will henceforth have more abundant opportunity for investing their money at home with greater advantage both to themselves and to this country. The loan that we are about to issue will, in accordance with the recent Appropriation Act, have the absolute security of the Central Fund of Saorstát Eireann, and the charge in favour of the stockholders will, therefore, secure their rights in priority to any of the demands made on the Exchequer for the ordinary public services of the State. In addition to being an entirely gilt-edged security, the loan will possess for subscribers the advantage of giving a yield which, as this is our first venture on the open market, must necessarily be somewhat more favourable than that obtainable in other investments of like standing which, however, are issued by borrowers better known in the outside financial world. Also, the loan will be an investment authorised by law in which Trustees may invest Trust funds.

It is the hope of the Government that a substantial subscription can be secured in the first instance from the actual free savings available in the country, whether in the form of bank deposits or otherwise. Next to this source the realisation of investments at present held in Government and other securities abroad is likely to be of the most service both to the State and to the investor, who will obtain by the exchange a higher income and at least equal security. In this connection I desire to call particular attention at this stage to the fact that the funds belonging to the Free State, which are now invested outside, include large amounts which are the property of various charities. Now, where the money of a Free State charity is invested in the Free State, the law allows it to be exempted from income tax. By a temporary arrangement having reciprocal effect, a similar exemption is at present allowed by the British Government where Free State charitable funds are invested in Great Britain. But this temporary arrangement is due to expire next March, and will not be renewed. Consequently the holders of Free State charitable moneys now invested in British securities, Government or otherwise, should take note of the fact that if they wish to continue to enjoy exemption from income tax they should transfer their investments in good time to securities within the Free State. The loan now about to be issued provides them with an opportunity of which they might be well advised to avail themselves. Approved Societies under the Health Insurance Acts are in a position similar to that of charities and the same considerations apply. I do not propose now to enter further into detail in regard to the loan. I only trust that from such indications as I have been able to give and from general observations of the trend of events in the country, all those who have money to invest will realise how important it is that they should join in making this first issue such an unquestionable success that our credit will rank from the start as highly as it deserves.

Mr. O'CONNELL

The statement to which the Dáil has just listened is an exceedingly important one from many points of view. I think that the Minister is to be congratulated on making the position so plain at such an important juncture. On the whole, I think the position hopeful. It is not in any case such as many people had ventured to predict it would be, that is, those people who were not fully informed of what the position was. In the early portion of his statement the Minister referred to the progress which had been made, and is being made, to deal with the payment of awards. I think there is hardly a Deputy in this Dáil but knows that all over the country there are many complaints of delays in making payments, not only of those awards, but also of Army accounts. I am sure there is no Deputy here but has piles of letters from different parts of his constituency calling attention to accounts which have been repeatedly sent in to the Finance Department and which have not been met. There is no evidence that they are being met in a serious way. That is undoubtedly causing damage to the credit of the Government, because the general doubt that is raised in the minds of those people is, "Are the Government able to pay," rather than that they do not want to pay. I think that is a matter to which the Government ought to give their very serious attention. I do not intend to deal in anything like a general way with the statement of the Minister, except to direct attention to the fact that the only definite proposals which he has put before us this afternoon, apart from the large amount of generalisations as to the necessity for economy, are two definite proposals. Immediately from the 1st of November a cut of 10 per cent. is to be made on the salaries of National Teachers, and a shilling is to be taken off the Old Age Pensions. Except in a general way he has not told us what he is going to do to bring down the internal cost of administration. He has not given us any explanation of why it should require some thirteen to fifteen hundred servants or officials who administer the Free State service more than it took in 1914 to administer the whole Irish services. He has told us the Civil Servants generally have suffered decreases in their income on account of cost of living bonus decreases, but no attempt has been made to show how even their existing salaries and bonus compare with the rates of those whose salaries he proposes to reduce immediately.

It might be expected that in a matter of this kind the last services that should be interfered with without the fullest enquiry would be those which are most essential to the nation, and it might also be said that the very last that should suffer a reduction would be the poor old people who have just what is keeping them scarcely above starvation limit. I have considerable doubt, indeed, not only as to the wisdom of this policy of reducing old age pensions from the Government, and the national point of view, but as to whether they can be asked to take on any portion of the sacrifices which everybody must, apparently, take. If the income which the old age pensioner gets from the State is reduced he must get it somewhere else, and we can only have an extension of what the farmers complain of, and rightly complain of. He must go on the rates, and this must mean an extension of Home Help.

I will naturally be expected to say something with regard to the other definite proposition, but I would like to make it clear at the beginning that I am not here as an official, representing the people who will be affected. I am here rather as a public representative, and it is from that point of view that I would like to approach the matter. The Minister laid great stress on the necessity for the people of the Saorstát to have faith in their Government. That is essential, but it is not a good beginning, or a good example to set to the people from whom they expect faith, to be themselves faithless. Some years ago a certain individual announced that it was his policy to say "To hell with contracts and to hell with agreements," and there was a very great outcry indeed, rightly so, in my opinion, against the adumbration of any such policy. If these agreements and contracts are not observed there can be no stability. The Minister has referred to a certain agreement entered into in 1920. I have it before me as I speak. It was entered into in a very solemn way, and it is signed by representatives of the body to which the Minister is a successor. I hope the Dáil will bear with me for a moment if I tell, as briefly as I can, the history of that agreement. I would like to state, in the first place, that I am sure that national teachers, just as every other body in the Saorstát, are prepared to bear their fair share of any burden which the State as a whole has to bear. I would like to emphasise that. But if they are to be asked to do that they ought to be assured of just and fair treatment. The Minister stated that under the agreement some teachers have salaries three to three and a half times more than they had pre-war. That is true in some instances, but he did not state that in pre-war days over 2,000 teachers had salaries—if you like to call them salaries—of £24 a year, and there are, no doubt, cases of teachers who have three and three and a half times as much as that salary. I think I need not dwell on the fact that teachers were underpaid in 1914, and that it was the policy, the stated and determined policy, of the British Government to keep them underpaid. Everybody here knows that. In 1918 a Commission was set up, presided over by Lord Killanin, and of which Most Rev. Dr. O'Donnell, Canon Macken, the Protestant Bishop of Meath, and others interested in education were members, and if Deputies would care to interest themselves in the matter sufficiently to turn to that Commission's report they will see the studied decisions of people who went into the whole question, and the effect on education of this continual starvation of those who are engaged on the work of teaching. Repeatedly, during the years 1917, 1918, and 1919, the British Government were putting off the date on which they would have to fix the salaries of teachers on a suitable scale.

A certain body, called the Civil Service Arbitration Board, was set up by the Cabinet, to which, in 1920, the National Teachers' Organisation appealed to settle and deal with the demand for a fixed and permanent scale of salaries. The British Treasury at the time objected to fixing a permanent scale of salaries. They put forward various reasons, but eventually the matter came to be tried before this Board. At that trial, or hearing, were represented the British Treasury, the Commissioners of National Education and the National Teachers' Organisation, and after hearing all of them fully, the Board decided, against the British Treasury representatives, that a permanent scale of salaries should be set up. It was as a consequence of that decision that the agreement referred to by the Minister was entered into. The Minister says that that contained no provision for the Cost of Living Bonus. That is quite correct, and deliberately so, and it is a strange thing to note that in all agreements connected with teachers, whether in this country or not, at the time, the cost of living did not enter materially into the fixing of the rates of salary. There must be some good reason for that. The main consideration was to fix a rate, or a scale, which would attract to the profession the proper class of men and women. It was not thought advisable that fluctuations of the cost of living should enter into the fixing of the scale. I want to draw particular attention to a point mentioned by the Minister. He said that if the Civil Service Bonus were given these teachers would have much less now than they actually have.

I would like to point out that if in 1920, when this agreement was entered into, they had got the then Civil Service Bonus they would have got actual money increases at the time, varying from £80 to £120, whereas they actually only got something like £30 or £40. The full rate of salary was payable only from the 1st April, 1922. That is a very important point inasmuch as it shows that while the actual terms of the decision were made in 1920 the full, or peak point of the salary was not reached until two years afterwards. If the cost of living factor materially entered into the fixing of the salaries at that time, naturally the peak point of the salary would be paid immediately in 1920. That was not done, and what is the result? During the war years, when other workers were getting the peak bonus and generally had good salaries, and business people, and farmers even, were doing very well, teachers were doing very badly, and from 1920 to 1921 they were looking forward to the year when they would get their full salary and were living largely on credit in the meantime. That is pretty well known.

I have before me the arguments which were put forward by the Treasury at that time, and the word "permanent," as a description of the scales, is written all over this correspondence. When the settlement was arrived at the Department of Education issued a circular, which I have before me, and it is headed: "New Permanent Scale of Salaries for National Teachers." I do not know what definition or meaning was put on the word "permanent" except the ordinary accepted one, but I have learnt to-day that there is a new meaning to be put on it. "Permanent," if it meant anything in any case did not mean there were to be fluctuations according to the cost of living; it meant the direct opposite. I do not wish to dwell on this matter more than is necessary. There is a great deal I could say that I will take the opportunity of saying perhaps elsewhere, but at the moment I wish to dwell particularly on the way that this matter will be looked at. Here is a bargain, or agreement, or decision, solemnly entered into by three or four parties. One of the parties, without any kind of consultation whatever, simply scraps the agreement. I think that is not good policy on the part of the Government, apart from its other effects, and it will have other effects. If the Minister had come to the Education Department and said: "It is necessary to effect a saving,"—and the extent of this first saving, I may mention, would be something over £300,000—"of £300,000 on this Vote," I feel certain that if the matter were approached in that way, the Department of Education and the teachers themselves would be quite prepared and quite willing to endeavour to see things from the Minister's point of view, and as far as possible to cooperate. We have for the past two years seen a very great effort on the part of the Department of Education to bring back to this country its old civilisation and its old ideals through the instrumentality of the Gaelic language, and teachers who as everybody knows had for years spent most of their energies agitating for better conditions and better salaries, had wiped the slate clean of these things, and had turned their attention to what should properly be their functions, that is, seeing how the system of education could be improved. I think we had an example of that last Easter, when two very distinguished members of the Dáil at the annual meeting of the Teachers' Congress delivered addresses relative to matters, some of which will in the very near future be that subject of discussion in the Dáil. We had examples when the teachers, at very great inconvenience to themselves, undertook what was to them, or the majority of them, absolutely new work in the matter of the teaching of the Irish language, and preparing themselves to give instruction in it. I can only see before me now a renewal of the old years of agitation, because the proposal here is not a 10per cent. cut, nor a temporary 10 per cent. one, cut, but an immediate 10 per cent. one, with a promise of revision of the whole basis on which teachers have been paid. I need not point out that if this country is going to make the progress which we all hope it will make, it must depend on the education of its people. Education, in the true and proper sense of the word, lies not so much in reading and writing and arithmetic, for that after all is not education, as in the character of the men and women engaged in the important work of education. You are not going to get men to lay down their minds to this important work if agreements entered into by them are simply scrapped without any proper consideration of the merits of the case, for I do allege that there has not been any proper consideration given to the facts. Most of the statements made by the Minister in reference to that can be controverted. This is not the place to do that, and I do not intend to do it. Deputy Bryan Cooper, speaking earlier in the day, urged the advisability of the appointment of a small committee to go into the estimates of Government expenditure in order to see where the savings could be made. I think that the statement and the action of the Minister proves very conclusively the necessity for such a Committee. If it were appointed it could go over the whole field of educational expenditure and see whether or not economies equal to the amount which could be gained in this way could not be saved in another way. Repeatedly in the Dáil, and elsewhere, I and other Deputies have pointed out that economies could be effected in many ways to get that particular amount of money he is looking for, if that is the intention or desire of the Minister.

He may possibly have other intentions. He has referred to the necessity, as I said, of faith in the Government and for the organising of interest in the Government's proposals for a loan and the sale of Saving Certificates. I made a suggestion on one occasion that there was no method of organising in the country whereby the sale of Saving Certificates could be so well encouraged as through the schools and through the teacher. That is one of the ways that would recommend itself to a Minister who would know exactly the facts of the situation. There is nobody who is more closely in touch with the people in every little village or town than the teachers, and if the teachers were got to interest themselves; if it were put before them in this way: "Here is something that you can do to strengthen the financial position of the country," I have no doubt whatsoever that the teachers approached in that way would do it, and do it to a much larger extent than they can be expected to do it under the present circumstances. I will conclude by quoting what the Minister for Education said on the last occasion, I think it was when he was speaking on the estimates here. What he said was that the bottom of education, as everybody knows, is good teachers, and when you obtain them you have to sustain them. The Minister for Finance is probably of a different frame of mind. There was one important statement made by the Minister in the course of his remarks. He said that "We know that the day of destruction has gone." I think that that statement ought to be emphasised. It is very important. But, in that connection, one will wonder why it is still necessary to spend something like between four and six millions a year on an army. I think that before essential services, such as education, and such things as old age pensions, should definitely come under the axe, the Dáil and the country should be assured that practically and actually steps have been taken to make equal savings in other Departments. It is not fair that old age pensioners should be asked to bear such a heavy share proportionately of this burden while having no evidence that the Minister's economies in other Departments are taking practical shape.

I was going to suggest that it might be fair if we had an opportunity of having the Minister's statement before us. Therefore, I would ask leave to move the adjournment of the debate.

I quite agree; I have no objection at all.

Before that motion is put, I would like to know if there is a date fixed on which this motion is to be determined—to what date is the adjournment? I heard rumours of a possible adjournment over a number of days, and it seems to me that if this debate is to be adjourned it ought not be adjourned beyond next Tuesday.

I was going to suggest that the debate, in the position in which we are now, must be adjourned to the next day on which the Dáil shall meet. Perhaps the Minister in charge might say when that day will be.

It is intended to adjourn to Wednesday fortnight, the 21st of November.

That seems to be a stercotyped phrase—"Wednesday fortnight."

Well, then, we have another half hour in which the matter can be gone into now. I suggest that the proposal that we adjourn to Wednesday fortnight, which Deputy Redmond is suggesting has become rather a stereotyped phrase in this Dáil, should not be pressed, but that this debate should be adjourned until next Tuesday.

In any event, the debate must be adjourned at 4 o'clock. To move the adjournment of the debate now merely deprives the Dáil of a further three-quarters of an hour debate to-day. If it is the desire to adjourn the debate that could be agreed to. The question of the date to which the Dáil will be adjourned, which is really the same question, could then be discussed, and Deputies would be in a better position to discuss it if we give this three-quarters of an hour for that purpose, rather than if the adjournment were moved at five minutes to four.

Do we not automatically adjourn at 4 o'clock? I ask the question, as I have given notice that I have an important matter to raise on the adjournment. If this discussion goes on until 4 o'clock, will the Dáil then carry on the discussion on the matter I am raising?

We adjourn the ordinary business at 4 o'clock, but a Deputy who has given notice of other business will have a half an hour to discuss it.

As the matter that Deputy Milroy wishes to raise is important, it ought not to be crowded into half an hour. It was partly because of that statement that I was suggesting the adjournment of this question now. I do not think that it would be possible to say much further with regard to the statement of the Minister for Finance without having the speech before us in writing, and I say that especially because of the three-quarters of an hour that is left us.

The Motion is that this debate be now adjourned until the next day on which the Dáil shall meet.

Why not continue it until 4 o'clock?

I shall put the question.

Question: "That the debate be now adjourned until the next day on which the Dáil shall meet," put and agreed to.

I beg to move that the Dáil do now adjourn.

A Minister must move that.

I beg to move that the Dáil do now adjourn until Wednesday fortnight, 21st of November.

I beg to move an Amendment, that the Dáil do adjourn until next Tuesday at 3 o'clock. I do so because the statement which we have just heard is one that will require to be discussed in the Dáil to prevent the possibility of the Ministry doing much more harm to the credit of the country and to its own credit than may have been done by the statement which has been made. I think it is necessary the Dáil should have an opportunity of discussing this statement and expressing its views upon it, and not allow the matter to be held over a fortnight. I, therefore, move that the adjournment be only until 3 o'clock on Tuesday next.

I second that. It is well known that the adjournments of this Dáil since it has met have not redounded entirely to its credit. Whatever excuse there might have been on an earlier occasion, which was that there was certain business to be transacted at Geneva, does not now exist. The Dáil was then agreeable to that, because the people who were to go there were people whose presence in the Dáil was judged necessary to the proceedings. The Dáil was adjourned while they were away.

In any case that excuse, justified or unjustified, is now no longer available. Very important matters have been raised here to-day, matters of the very first importance. There is business before the Dáil. The statement made by the Minister provides in itself sufficient business for discussion. There is no reason why we should not meet next Tuesday at 3 o'clock and proceed with the discussion on the Governor-General's speech, following a discussion upon the very important statement that has been made by the Minister for Finance. For that reason I second the proposal to adjourn until Tuesday at 3 o'clock.

I think it is in the Government's own interest that we should not have so long an adjournment as what is called a fortnight, but what is in reality three weeks all but two days. This immensely important statement of the Finance Minister's is going to be discussed whether we like it or not. It will be discussed in the Press, by the National Teachers, and by people all over the country. Surely, it is better that it should be discussed here, where misconceptions can be corrected, and where the Government can continue to make their case. If it is discussed outside you will see interviews given to the Press correcting misconceptions. The Dáil is the place where the Ministers should make their case, and correct misconceptions, and for that reason I think a shorter adjournment than three weeks is needed.

I desire to suggest that the adjournment should be only until next Wednesday week. I would also suggest that when the Governor-General's address is taken up let it be finished, and not, as in the last Dáil and this Dáil, be under discussion at different intervals. It is a most unsatisfactory way, and it does not reflect credit on the Dáil and our conduct of business. Let us take this matter up and finish it once for all. The method we have been adopting in regard to the Address is most unsatisfactory and undignified. As a compromise I would suggest Wednesday week.

I have no objection to Tuesday next or Wednesday week, provided that the Dáil is satisfied to come back for the discussion of the Address alone. There will not be other business of a substantial character before Wednesday fortnight.

I have yet to be convinced ín regard to the necessity for an adjournment at all. I think it is due to the Dáil, when an adjournment of this length is proposed, that we should be given some explanation. I think the Minister has given an explanation now to a certain extent, and that means that the legislation which is proposed in the Governor-General's speech is not quite ready.

If this is the rate at which we are going to proceed with the enormous programme laid down in the Governor-General's Address, I think it will take us a good deal longer than the time of the present session to get through anything like that programme. I think that in the interests of the Government and the Dáil, it would be wise in future for the Government, when proposing an adjournment of any length, to give the Dáil some reason for their proposal.

Do I understand the Minister for Finance to agree conditionally to this amendment?

Yes, if it is the desire of the Dáil, but I want simply to make it clear that there will be no other business except the Governor-General's Address if we meet before next Wednesday fortnight.

If the Minister is agreeable that we should come here on Tuesday or Wednesday, might it not be possible to continue the debate on the Address and finish it next week. It ought to be possible to finish it next week, and I think we should do so.

On a point of order, I would like to ask whether the statement made by the Minister for Finance comes within the terms of the Governor-General's Address?

Yes, the statement has been made on the Governor-General's Address, and I think it is relevant to the terms of the Address, stating that economies would be effected, and since the Address concerns the Government's general policy and the Minister's speech concerns the Government's general policy on finance, it is clearly relevant. I had intended, in view of the importance of the speech, not to insist that Deputies who had previously spoken should be precluded from speaking on this particular matter of finance, merely as a matter of fairness to Deputies. The only other matter on the Motion of Thanks for the Governor-General's Address is the question of fisheries which is raised on an amendment by Deputy O'Connell. Before I put the amendment, I desire to know if there is any agreement as to whether we could meet next week, and if so, shall it be Tuesday or Wednesday.

I suggest that we meet on next Wednesday week. That will give Deputies an opportunity to read the speech of the Minister in the official reports and of studying it.

The point is, that there is no other business even on next Wednesday week except the business we are now engaged upon. Therefore, if Deputies have to come specially for that business, they might as well come next week as the week after, and the Minister prefers Wednesday to Tuesday.

The importance of having this matter discussed at the earliest possible date is that it is so serious a statement. If we may postpone it until Wednesday, then we might as well postpone it to Wednesday fortnight or even to the Greek Kalends. Unless the Dáil can bring some influence to bear upon the Ministry to save it from what I consider a calamity, we need not discuss it at all. I feel the matter is one that requires the earliest possible discussion, and in view of the practice of the Dáil that we cannot meet satisfactorily on Mondays, I have suggested Tuesday.

I have seconded the motion that we meet on Tuesday, and I adhere to it if the proposer insists upon Tuesday, but there is one consideration that I would like to bring before the Dáil, and it is this: It is now Friday, and pretty late in the day. It is necessary that the Minister's speech be circulated to us, and that we should have an opportunity of studying it, and it is possible that if we met on Wednesday we would have an opportunity of studying the statement better than if we met on Tuesday.

I will now put the amendment. The original motion was that the Dáil at its rising to-day adjourn until Wednesday, the 21st of November, to which an amendment has been moved to leave out the words "Wednesday, 21st November," and to insert in lieu thereof the words "Tuesday next at 3 o'clock." The question now is that the Dáil adjourns until Tuesday next at 3 o'clock.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 59.

  • Pádraig F. Baxter.
  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Séamus Eabhroid.
  • Darrell Figgis.
  • John Good.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Séamus Mac Cosgair.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhín.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg P.O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
  • Pádraig K.O hOgáin (Luimneach).
  • William A. Redmond.

Níl

  • Earnán Altún.
  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • John Conlon.
  • Henry Coyle.
  • Louis J. Dalton.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí
  • Dhrisceóil.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Osmonde Grattan Esmonde.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • Henry J. Finlay.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Tomás Mac Artúir.
  • Peadar Mac a' Bháird.
  • Alasdair Mac Cába.
  • Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Seán Mac Garaidh.
  • Seán P. Mac Giobúin.
  • Seán Mac Giolla 'n Ríogh.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Pádraig S. Mag Ualghairg.
  • Patrick McKenna.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Micheál O hAonghusa.
  • Criostóir O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • Próinsias O Cathail.
  • Aodh O Cinnéide.
  • Conchubhair O Conghaile.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Tadhg S. O Donnabhláin.
  • Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
  • Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
  • Seán O Duinnín.
  • Donchadh S. O Guaire.
  • Mícheál R. O hlfearnáin.
  • Aindriú O Láimhin.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Thomas O'Mahony.
  • Pádraig O Máille.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Andrew O'Shaughnessy.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Seán Priomhdhail.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Liam Thrift.
Amendment lost.

Could we now get an agreement for Wednesday?

I proposed an amendment that the Dáil meet next Wednesday to discuss the Governor-General's Address.

I think the Deputy moved Wednesday week, and I would be prepared to accept Wednesday week. I understood that was the proposal Deputy Gorey made before. I should say that the machine that is turning out legislation has been working at a fairly high pressure. Something like 43 Acts were passed, I think, in the last Dáil, and two Acts have already been passed in this Dáil. During the period that has elapsed since the Dáil was elected there have been other occupations for Ministers, apart from the consideration of the ordinary business of the Dáil, which have absorbed a great deal of time. We realise the necessity for an early discussion of the statement of the Minister for Finance, but if we were to come back on Tuesday next there would be no business other than this discussion on the Governor-General's Speech, and I do not think the large expenditure of time and money would be warranted for that, having regard to the fact that in the ordinary business of the Dáil here the discussion on the subject of the Governor-General's Address or the consideration of Estimates forms very useful material for utilising when dealing with a number of Bills. The great number of Bills of which notice has been given in the Governor-General's Speech necessitate First and Second Readings, with intervals between them, which some people might call waste of time, but which are necessary under the Standing Orders, and which it is only fair that members should have in order to enable them to form judgments, propose amendments, or discuss the Bills. I think on Wednesday week we might be in a position to have some other measures in a fair state for presentation, and I propose to accept that if the Dáil will agree.

I accept the President's suggestion.

The motion of the Minister for Finance is therefore altered to read: "Wednesday, 14th." The motion is therefore: "That the Dáil adjourn until Wednesday, 14th November, at 3 o'clock." There can be no further amendment, and we will take that as agreed in order to give Deputy Milroy an opportunity of speaking.

Take me as dissenting.

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