I wish to make it plain that in rising to speak on this matter I am doing so in an individual capacity. I rise not with that feeling of hate that I am afraid we have too much evidence of now and again in many of the people who enter into discussion of this matter. I brought this question forward because it seems to me that it is of such serious moment to the people of Ireland to-day that the Dáil would be very ill-advised not to take notice of it. It may be true that perhaps all the Deputies in this House are on one side. Twenty-five per cent. of the Deputies who were elected to represent the people of the Saorstat are not here. But I think that despite the fact that they are not present here, they do represent the twenty-five per cent. of the Irish people who selected and elected them, and their point of view and their position in the Ireland of to-day and the Ireland of to-morrow must be taken into account by everybody who looks to any future for this country at all. That is the point of view I had when I gave notice to raise this question. Now what is the position to-day? We have anywhere around ten or twelve thousand men in prison——
PRISONERS ON HUNGER-STRIKE.
Might I ask if the Deputy has that from any reliable source?
I am open to correction. Of these somewhere around four hundred are on hunger strike for any number of days up to 30. Some of these—many of them—are men who have bled for Ireland more than once, and are some of the bravest men this country has had in our time, and it seems to me that there are many of those who must be to-day on the point of death. The Dáil has remained silent on this matter up to the present. Is it advisable that it should remain silent until some of these men pass to another world, until, perhaps, some of their remains are taken home to be buried in their native districts in the countryside, until we see a repetition of the big funerals we had when Terence MacSwiney and others gave up their lives? I do not think that that is good for the future of this country. I am afraid it will not be good for its future peace or for its future prosperity. I may be asked: "Why are these men on hunger strike?" It may be said, "No one wants them to die, and why don't they give up the hunger strike?" Well, I do not want them to die, and I hope, and am sure, that Deputies in this House do not wish for their deaths. I think we want every man and woman to live for Ireland, and I think that everything that the Ministry responsible to the Dáil and the Deputies here can do ought to be done to preserve the life of every man and woman for Ireland.
We read in the Press and in the literature and papers distributed that the prisoners in the camps and in the jails have been severely maltreated. We are told by the Republican Party that it is because of this maltreatment that these men have gone on hunger strike. My experience is that when you are in prison or camp for a certain length of time, no matter how pleasing the conditions are, you are prepared to face almost anything to get out. When prisoners are kept in very long and the period is so indefinite that they do not know when release is to come, it is not any wonder that men or women will take the last desperate step. But the question is: Is there anything in the statements that are being made as to the maltreatment of the prisoners in the prisons and camps? Some days ago Deputy Byrne put a question to the Minister for Defence with regard to the treatment of a Deputy to the Dáil— Charles Murphy. If my memory serves me right, the Minister's reply was that the statements regarding Charles Murphy's ill-treatment were not true. The question was if Charles Murphy had been strung up by the wrists in some of the prisons or camps down in Tintown. I think the Minister's answer was a denial of that statement. I met two men in the street the other night who are released prisoners, and who informed me that they are two of the men who were strung up with their wrists over their heads for four and a half hours. They were only two of them and they are released now. I must say I believe the story those men told me. I assume, if I were to put the question to the Minister for Defence if it were true, the Minister's answer would be similar to the answer he gave Deputy Byrne. But then the Minister, I am sure, has to rely for his answers on the statements that are made to him by subordinate officers.
I do not think, however, that that is satisfactory enough for the Deputies here. I must say the answer that was given Deputy Byrne would not be satisfactory to me, after what I heard. And I say again I believe what I was told. Furthermore, these men have gone so far, they informed me, as to have affidavits sworn as to their treatment. That will take some clearing up. And now we are told of the conditions in Mountjoy and Kilmainham. We are told that prisoners in Mountjoy have not had clean clothing for a month, and we are told about the sanitary conditions in those places—particularly in Kilmainham. In the best of days the sanitary conditions in Kilmainham were bad. If they are anything worse to-day than they were two years ago, they must really be intolerable.
These men and women are those who have taken part in the civil conflict in this country. As far as I can see— and I think there are Deputies here who will agree with me—that civil war has terminated and the Republican Party, in all their statements, and judging by the attitude of Frank Aiken and other leaders, have declared that the civil war has come to an end and will not be resumed. It has come to an end—we know that—and there is not any evidence that there will be a resumption of it. We were told by some of the Ministers yesterday that destruction has come to an end, so that apparently even the Ministry itself must be satisfied on that point. I take it that these prisoners are being detained because of the fear of a resumption of the civil war.
Oh, not at all.
That may not be so. Perhaps it is that there is a feeling that they should be more severely punished? I am afraid if that is the spirit that is animating the Ministry, we need not be surprised that there is on the other side a similar spirit being exhibited. I think that is bad for Ireland. I think until we can get a better spirit on the two sides that have been party to this conflict, the people who come in between are really going to suffer. Now, the matter I have tried to bring under notice is the fact that 400 individuals, approximately, may be to-day very near their graves because of this hunger strike, by reason of the intolerable conditions they say they are being forced to live under in the prisons and in the camps. I would like to hear what the Minister's attitude is, or what the attitude of the Ministry is, regarding those prisoners. I would like to know from the Minister for Defence if, under the Public Safety Act, he has not power or authority to have doctors and nurses attend the prisoners, and I would like to know if such care is being given to prisoners who are at present in their cells unable to rise and who receive no attention.
What has the Minister to say if he is asked to permit an independent Committee set up by the Dáil to enter the prisons and see what are the conditions there? I do not think that is too much to ask, and I do not think it would be too much for the Minister to concede. If everything is all right from the point of view of the Government, and if the conditions are satisfactory, I think the Government have nothing to fear by appointing a Committee of the Dáil to enter the prisons and make a report on the conditions there. The Government are perfectly satisfied as to what is the point of view of the Deputies, and they know the Committee would be as favourable to the Ministry as to the other side. If everything is all right, from the Ministry's point of view, there can be no harm in setting up this Committee and giving it power to visit the prisons. If everything is not all right, that would be looked upon as being the reason why the Minister will not set up this Committee. It seems to me that there is a great responsibility on the Minister for Defence to explain what his attitude is with regard to the treatment of the prisoners in the camps and prisons.
I think it is his duty, and I think it is also the duty of the Dáil, to see that if prisoners are kept they are to be treated at least as human beings. I say more: if you want to drive people back to the savage state, treat them as if they were not human beings and then you will succeed. I know I will be told of the destruction that has been brought on the country by these prisoners. I have taken some trouble to discover what the point of view of these people is and whether there is to be a resumption of civil war and what the prisoners will do if they were free to-morrow. I have been told by responsible individuals that the civil war has come to an end, and that they are prepared to go out and conduct the campaign on constitutional lines, on the platform, through the Press, and by other means. If they are prepared to take up that attitude in the light of changed conditions, the Ministry should be prepared to change their attitude. I will be very glad to learn from the Minister responsible that they intend to do so.
This question was before the Dáil on May 2nd last.
Before the President speaks, let me mention that three Deputies have risen. We have only until half past four to discuss this matter, and it seems to me that the Deputy's statement calls for reply.
My statement will take only one minute. This question was before the Dáil on the 2nd May last, and a resolution was adopted to the effect that in the opinion of the Dáil the fact of any particular person being on hunger-strike should not affect the question of detention or release. That resolution was put and agreed to. There was a sort of bargain come to at that time and that question is settled. Hunger-strike will not effect the release of any prisoner either now or in the future, and I would like to tell the Deputy who has just spoken that my view of his responsibility in this business is very great indeed. If a single prisoner on hunger-strike dies, the attitude of the Deputy who has spoken, and of other people who, by their acts or resolutions or their talk about this gigantic failure, the most gigantic failure that these people who threatened the State ever entered into— this failure of the hunger-strike—must not be overlooked. About 300 out of 7,400 are on strike, and there are people in this country waiting to see who is going to die, some thinking it will mean the release of the remainder, and others thinking it will afford an opportunity to the face-savers to call off this hunger-strike. They are held according to law, sir, everyone of them. The law of this country, as passed in this Parliament, is not going to be repealed by speeches and appeals to sentiment. We are a free people now, entirely independent, and we are responsible for the conduct of this country. We are taking that responsibility and no appeal to sentiment is going to detract us from it.
I think you might——
Deputy Baxter cannot speak again.
Mr. HOGAN (Labour)
I will not detain you very long. Even at the risk of repeating myself, I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without registering my appreciation of the action of Deputy Baxter in raising the question of the prisoners. We have been told here and elsewhere that there is little heed given to the acts of this Parliament by certain people outside. I would suggest to the Ministry that the little heed they give to the voice of public opinion, as expressed by public bodies and by public plebiscites, would explain the little heed that has been given to this Parliament in certain quarters. I have now a signed memorial from 30,000 people from Co. Clare, a county represented in one part by a Minister. Those people demand the release of the prisoners. Yesterday I put that demand forward as a means of retrenchment and said that the Government would save thousands by the release of the prisoners. The President has told us that there is no fear of civil war, and we have been told in other quarters that there is no such fear. Then, where is the need to keep the prisoners? What authority has any Government to say to any citizens taken off the streets that they will hold them until they sign a statement that they will not commit again any offence which has not been proved against them?
I join in this debate purely from humanitarian motives. It has been stated by a deputation at another public board with which I am connected, that the conditions in the prisons are a disgrace to any civilised country.
Might I intervene to mention that I understood the question was the release of hunger-strikers? Deputy Byrne raises another question. Deputy Baxter, in introducing this matter, brought one thing across the other. I submit what he was going to raise was the question of the hunger-strikers.
That is correct, and I spoke to Deputy Baxter on the matter and made that clear to him. I think if Deputy Byrne had something to say about the hunger-strike he would be in order.
Mr. BYRNE
I will take the earliest opportunity of raising the question of the prisoners, and the treatment of the prisoners. I would say in connection with the Charlie Murphy case——
Now the Deputy is speaking on the same point again. The Deputy cannot evade the rules.
Mr. BYRNE
Then I will raise it again.
Deputy Baxter has made a statement that the prisoners on whose behalf he speaks are prepared to go back to what he calls constitutional action. Now, it is very important that the public generally should know whether Deputy Baxter has any authority, and can show any case for making a statement like that. Because while he speaks of twenty-five per cent. of the representatives of this country being supporters of the present hunger-strike, and being supporters of the position taken up by the prisoners who are on hunger-strike, there is also the point to be borne in mind that this twenty-five per cent. of the representatives of the people have been returned on a policy of peace and going back to constitutional lines of action, whereas their actual policy and the policy that they are proceeding on is a policy by which twenty-five per cent. of the representatives of the people can set up a Government, can maintain an army, and can operate one or the other in whatever way they wish themselves. Now that is a matter upon which we have got to be definitely clear. We have got to be definitely clear on that point, too, when the spokesman of the prisoners says that they went on hunger-strike because of the treatment meted out to them in the prison, and when the chief spokesman of theirs makes a statement for the information of all that the prisoners "Went on hunger-strike to obtain unconditional release in the defence of the Irish citizens' right to be free to set up their own Government and live their own lives without yielding voluntary allegiance to any power or authority hostile or inimical to the Republic of Ireland." That is an implication that this Government set up by the majority of the people of this country is a Government inimical and hostile to what they call the Republic of Ireland. We have got to be very definitely clear that men who are brave and men who have bled have not inherent in them the right to test in that way whether other people are as brave, and whether other people can bleed. You have also this statement of the 12th October, 1923, and you have in documents that come day by day into our hands, a statement of determination on the part of these people to maintain what they call the army, and you have one of their agents writing on the 12th October, 1923, from America and saying "Funds must be raised and a whole lot of things before we can go into the field again." You have the general assertion that ill-treatment in the camps has been at the root of this, and you have a prisoner from one of the camps writing out on the 6th November: "I wish and pray to God that we were all home again, and I do not want to hear any more about the great things they done in Cork and Kerry, for God knows I have the bitter experience of knowing what some of them are like, as the majority of the fellows here come from there, but I must say in justice to some of them, that they stuck to me through thick and thin, even some of my own staff, after urging me to call the strike off, resigned and left me to bear the lot myself. I must say in justice to the Staters that they were even kind to me. So you see all the good men are not on our side." Then he goes on to say that he was the camp leader, and when he saw that his men had been put up against a test, that it was not fair for men to be put up against, he called off the strike, and he said of others: "There are about sixty on strike here still, but they are not honest as the majority of them have dirtied their bibs, and now they are trying to save their faces by staying on strike."
The prisoners who have been in the camps are getting all the medical treatment that they want. The conditions in the camps are not the conditions that are painted by certain spokesmen of the prisoners and by certain publicity machines. The prisoners are taking up their present attitude against the Government in order that they may be free with impunity to go out and run a Government, or run an army, and go into the field again when they have money or materials, or when some mad head or two or three among them would lead any section of them into the field, and restart again the destruction that we have been used to. We must, bearing the responsibilities that we do, be very clear what is the position with regard to any group of men like these. Before they can be released from the prisons in which they are, we cannot allow any action on their part of mutiny of any kind inside, to force us to release people whom our whole intelligence, and our appreciation of responsibility, dictate that we should keep inside.
The Dáil adjourned at 4.30 p.m. to 3 o'clock on Wednesday, 21st November, 1923.