Before we proceed with the Orders of the Day, may I ask, a Chinn Chomhairle, whether a request has been received by you from the Town Clerk, or from the Lord Mayor of Dublin, with a view to appearing here and presenting a petition to this Dáil, and if so, what is the result?
DUBLIN CORPORATION.—A QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.
Yes, a letter has been sent to me by the Town Clerk of Dublin, enclosing a copy of a resolution passed by the Municipal Council of Dublin, asking me to make the necessary arrangements to have the Lord Mayor of Dublin appear at the Bar of the Dáil, accompanied by the Town Clerk, the Law Agent, his Lordship's officers of state, and members of the Council.
There is no procedure at present in the Dáil for allowing any person to come to the Dáil to present a petition, and I have had the Town Clerk of Dublin acquainted of that fact. The question of presenting a petition to the Dáil has not yet been considered, and while it is clear that a Deputy would have the right to present a petition himself it would require a special arrangement by the Dáil, either in general or in a particular case, to allow any person, other than a Deputy, to come and present a petition to the Dáil, on behalf of himself or of any other persons.
Owing to the urgency of this matter, I would ask your guidance on it. If I were to give notice to-day and put down a motion, similar to that which was carried in another Parliament, allowing this right to the Dublin Corporation, would it be considered on Friday? This is Wednesday, and if I were to give notice to-day would it be in time?
Deputy Byrne consulted me about this matter yesterday, and I explained the situation to him, so that his notice is really, technically, since yesterday. I would be prepared, if the Dáil agrees, to allow the motion to go forward on the Order Paper for consideration in Private Members' time on Friday. The motion would be in these terms:—"That the Right Hon, the Lord Mayor of the City of Dublin be admitted to present a petition from the Lord Mayor and Corporation of the said City at the Bar of Dáil Eireann."
In the course of your answers, a Chinn Chomhairle, to Deputy Byrne, you said that a Deputy himself would have the right to present a petition. I did not know that that matter had been considered any more than the other, and I would think, and suggest to the Dáil, that that is a matter that ought to be dealt with by the Procedure and Privileges Committee, even before the right of the Deputy to present a petition is acknowledged.
The manner and the method of presentation, I think, should be considered by the Committee on Privileges, and Standing Orders drawn up in the matter. What I meant to convey was, that it might be taken for granted that, under certain conditions, and when certain arrangements had been made, the right would be accorded to Deputies to present petitions, but that the question of a person not a Deputy presenting a petition would require the special sanction of the Dáil. I shall bring the matter before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Does that mean that this matter will be brought before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges before the motion will be dealt with on Friday? I take it that the basis of this claim is a claim which the late Henry Grattan secured from the British Parliament after the Act of Union had been passed. As such, it has to my mind certain unsavoury recommendations in its favour, and I do not think it has ever been suggested by anybody that this country got any real advantages out of the Act of Union. If that be the claim for urgency, I would not be inclined to give this matter very grave consideration. If, on the other hand, the subject matter of the petition itself be the claim for urgency, we ought to have that defined, because I submit that there is no claim for urgency under the second head, and, as regards the first, I suggest it is faulty. Therefore, I do not see how the question of urgency arises at all.
It may be well to get that matter cleared up. The resolution which has been sent to me is as follows:—
"That this Council, in the exercise of its ancient privilege of appearing at the Bar of the Commons, requests the Lord Mayor to make the necessary arrangements to present the petition (at present being signed in the City Hall, requesting the release of all the political prisoners) at the Bar of An Dáil, and that he be accompanied by the Town Clerk, Law Agent, His Lordship's Officers of State and the Members of the Council."
I did not think it necessary to advert to what is termed the "ancient privilege," because, as the President has stated, by resolution passed by the British House of Commons in 1813, the Corporation of Dublin was given the right of appearing, through its Lord Mayor, at the Bar of the House and of presenting petitions. Under that resolution, the Dublin Corporation has no right whatever to appear before Dáil Eireann, and that privilege, in so far as it existed, is not a privilege against Dáil Eireann, and cannot be exercised by virtue of that resolution. I think that is clear.
Yes, quite clear.
I take it, therefore, that that matter will not be discussed or urged. The urgency which Deputy Byrne spoke of, I take it, relates to the subject matter of the petition rather than to the assertion of that claim.
On that I would have to enter an objection, because I do not consider, as I have said before, that any useful public purpose is served by dragging the sufferings of these unfortunate hunger strikers before the notice of the public. It is done with one object alone, and that is to keep the unfortunate dupes still on hunger strike. I think it is cruel, inhuman, and unworthy of any citizen of this State to persist in such action, and as such it would have my most strenuous opposition.
The motion that Deputy Byrne proposes to place before the Dáil would have reference only to a matter of whether we will or will not accord to the Municipal Council of Dublin a certain privilege. The discussion on that motion would not involve any discussion on the question of political prisoners or on the subject matter of any petition now under consideration or to be in future considered. If objection is taken to the fact that the motion has not got sufficient notice, it must go over to next Wednesday, but the matter which would be discussed on Friday would not be the question of prisoners, but the question of privilege.
On that point, if any Deputy moved a resolution, would it not be open to any other Deputy to move an amendment to refer the matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, before the Dáil proceeded further to discuss the matter?
I think it is always a bad thing to give one's ruling in advance, but at present I do not see in the proposal which Deputy Thrift has made anything which would be out of order.
It would be my intention, if the subject did come up for consideration, to move that it be left over and sent back to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges until the subject matter of the resolution had passed away.
Perhaps the simpler way would be for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which meets to-morrow, to consider the matter, and have, either some definite rules governing the matter or some report or recommendation from that Committee brought before the Dáil, and then have the matter discussed on that report.
May I suggest that we are rather getting away from the motion which you, a Chinn Chomhairle, read. The real question is, whether the four days' notice is to be waived? You ruled that, technically, inasmuch as the notice had been given yesterday, the motion which you have read out, is in order. Subject to your discretion, we have the right to receive any Notice of Motion, and that is the only question, I submit, that we have before us. It seems to me to be a matter for your own ruling as to whether the Standing Orders have been complied with in regard to the Notice of Motion.
The Standing Orders have not been complied with in regard to the Notice of Motion, but as no objection was taken, I thought that the Dáil was agreed to waive the Standing Orders in this particular case. If objection is taken the motion is not in order and cannot be moved on Friday.
I would suggest that the Deputy should withdraw his motion. Coming forward at this particular time, it is simply brought forward with one object. A large number of unfortunate men are on hunger strike. These men who are on hunger strike, consider, in the first place, that the hunger strike was a disaster from the point of view of their policy, and in the second place, that it should be called off. The only effect of this motion, if it is brought before the Dáil, and if it is to lie over until Friday, will be to pin down, by a sense of honour, men who are already suffering very severely, and to keep them suffering for another day or two when they themselves are perfectly convinced that they cannot achieve anything by a hunger strike, and who consider that those who were responsible for putting them on hunger strike should order them off and give them a chance of saving themselves from more suffering.
I am a member of the body that passed the resolution that has been read. That body had a certain privilege in a foreign Parliament, and I hold, and am in agreement with that body, that the same privilege ought to be extended to it in an Irish Parliament. I have put down the motion to maintain the rights of the Dublin Corporation, and am anxious to take the views of members of the Dáil on the motion. If my motion is not in time for Friday, I will give notice for next Wednesday, as I understand now that I am being ruled out for Friday. It is unfortunate that I cannot be heard here on the matter on Friday, but in view of the ruling that has been given, I will give notice of motion for next Wednesday. In my opinion, I think the Dublin Corporation is entitled——
That is discussing the motion.
The point I desire to raise is very small in comparison with the matter raised by Deputy Byrne. I suggest it has a certain minor importance of its own, and it respects the terms of the motion of which he has given notice. May I suggest that we do not use the phrase, "at the Bar of the Dáil," because we have no Bar. At least we have a bar, but not in the purely parliamentary sense. I suggest that you use instead of that phrase the words "before Dáil Eireann."
We will consider that.