I will now move the adjournment of the Dáil until 12 o'clock on Friday, the 18th January. If it be possible, I would ask your permission to-morrow to introduce a Housing Bill on the lines of the suggestion I made before—that as far as the Government is concerned, it will be willing to advance the sums indicated, on specified conditions.
THE ADJOURNMENT. - STRIKING OF RATES—QUESTION OF POSTPONEMENT.
I gave notice to-day that on the motion for the adjournment, I would call attention to the desirability of postponing the striking of a rate for the current year until the Local Government elections are over. I know what I am asking is unprecedented, and I know there are difficulties which will, no doubt, be stated by the Minister for Local Government; but I shall try to lay before the Dáil a few reasons why it seems to me that what I suggest is a desirable course. A short time ago we passed the Postponement of Local Elections Bill. I, for one, did not realise— I dare say the other Deputies did not, and if the Minister did, he did not tell us so—that that would involve the existing Councils striking a rate for the coming year. I am not intimately familiar with the procedure of Local Government. I did not realise that when we postponed the elections over March that meant practically another year of office for the existing Councils. I think it is common ground that the existing Councils have, in some cases, been criticised. Mr. Johnson will accept that, I think.
Some of them.
I do not wish to suggest that all the existing County Councils are bad, or are doing their business inefficiently. There are cases in which Councils are not giving satisfaction, and that is very largely due to the circumstances under which they were elected three years ago. They were elected in a time of stress, and in many cases, the members were not chosen for their familiarity with administration, but because they had comparatively little property on which the Crown Forces could retaliate. I think that there is a general feeling in the country that those Councils have served their purpose, and have now outlived their usefulness. In two cases, at least, that view was accepted by the Minister. I refer to the County Councils of Leitrim and Kerry, and their functions are now being carried on by Commissioners appointed by the Local Government Department.
In other cases where that course has not been taken, there has nevertheless been a considerable amount of criticism. In Dublin County, in regard to which I can speak with the greatest knowledge, the Minister held an inquiry, but the evidence was not sufficient to induce him to dissolve the Council. Some of the conclusions arrived at by the Inspector indicate that the Council is at least not a perfect body. In reference to one matter, exceeding the limit that is allowed to be expended on road maintenance, the Inspector said it was a subject for surprise that a responsible body should have left the matter in an indefinite state and should proceed contrary to the sections of the Local Government Act of which they were aware. His report says that the attitude of carelessness on the part of an official of the Council, and the toleration of that by the Council, was such as could not be expected from any responsible body. His conclusion is that the County Council have not failed in their duty as a County Council and they, at times, though apparently without wholeheartedness, tried to grapple with their many difficulties. I think it is undesirable that a body that tries, halfheartedly at times, to grapple with their many difficulties, should have power to strike a rate that will bind the ratepayers for the coming year.
I left this motion an open one in order that Deputies from other parts of the country could give their views. Now, these Councils are, I think, doomed, and therefore the members will have no particular reason to practise economy. They may, for all we know, indulge in a last orgy of spending and I do not think that is fair to the ratepayers. I do not think, when we passed the Bill I referred to, that we realised it would entail on the ratepayers the responsibility of paying the rate for another year at the standard which they have been facing in the past. To-day, in reply to a question, the Minister pointed out some of the difficulties in the way, such as accumulating overdrafts and the interest on them that will have to come from the rates. I make this suggestion: Expedite the local elections sufficiently so as to hold them in March before the date of the striking of the rate. That seems to be fair to everybody. The objection is put forward that the register is not ready. Are there not worse things than an election on an old register? After all, we had an election to the Dáil on a new register and every one of us found various complaints. I would suggest that it is a greater grievance to have a rate struck for the ensuing year by a body which has ceased to be representative than even to hold an election on the old register.
In connection with this matter I made the suggestion on the Second Reading of the Rates Recovery Bill but the Minister did not seem to meet it. Since that discussion it has come to my knowledge that in some counties, such as Carlow, whole masses of ratepayers, not alone farmers, are holding public meetings protesting against the rates. The same thing may be said of Limerick, Dublin and Clare. Things are pretty bad in these counties. The amount of rates that has been struck in my county for an administration that is not better. The same things are happening all over the country. One county may have a rate which may be regarded as reasonable while the county over the border has an exorbitant rate, perhaps double or treble that of the other county, but has not as good roads or as good administration. I can promise the Minister in the collection of these rates, grave and serious trouble, and perhaps disorder, if the present Councils are allowed to strike rates for the present year, and he is also likely to have trouble in the collection of arrears in some of these counties. That is a serious matter, and the feelings of the general body of the ratepayers should be taken into consideration. I do not think that the suggestion of Deputy Cooper goes too far. I think it does not go far enough. There is an extraordinary volume of opinion aroused all over the country on this question of rates and against the striking of a new rate by the present Co. Councils.
I do not know whether we would be in order or not on the Committee stage of this Bill to insert a new clause providing that the present Co. Councils cannot strike the new rates. We will however try to do that. I appeal to the Government to approach this question with a lot of care and consideration. A lot of this expenditure was incurred in the counties largely through the inspiration of the members of the present Government. A lot of these results of the damage and burnings have to be met by the County rates and they were due to political reasons, not of course in every case, but to a large extent. It is not at all a happy state of affairs, and the people are in open rebellion. They are not able to pay. Too many of these high charges have been made in the last three or four years, and the position is one of which the Government had better take stock.
I am entirely opposed to the attitude of Deputy Cooper and Deputy Gorey because, like the Minister for Local Government, I am wondering what is going to happen in the interval between March and May when it is suggested the elections should be held. It has become very fashionable during the last few months to criticise local Councils. This has been initiated by some of the newspapers in this country for no other purpose than to get the ascendancy class into power again. The Councils that are functioning were good enough to fight during the British regime and they played their part well in the Anglo-Irish war, and, so far as I know, they did everything they were told to do by Dáil Eireann which was looked upon at that time, by most of the people who are howling to-day, as an illegal body. The Councils to-day are democratic and representative of the people.
Question.
I did not interrupt Mr. Gorey, and I wonder that he would show his ignorance to such an extent as to suggest that the County Councils to-day are levying rates to pay for acts suggested by members of the present Government. He ought to know that they are not levying rates for such things. 6d. in the pound is very small, and I think the Government acted very generously in that respect. I think it received the approval of every party in the Dáil, when it was suggested at the time the Bill was introduced. This talk of economy at present is so much pious cant. The Councils have been carrying on under great difficulties during the past few years, and so far as I know, they are doing their best, Listening to such speeches as we have just heard, one would think that the representatives of the people were deliberately throwing money away. Deputy Cooper said something about the limits for road maintenance being overstepped. I do not think that anybody could give an estimate of what the limit in road maintenance is in this country. To my mind, we want a lot more money for road maintenance, and any Council that strikes a rate, as high as it can, for road maintenance, is doing its duty.
As a matter of personal explanation, may I state that I was quoting from the report of an official of the Local Government Department, and the comment was not mine but his?
I quite understand that Deputy Cooper used that particular quotation to strengthen his argument. As I said at the beginning; this economy stunt has been initiated by the newspapers, which took no care to make any investigation as to what they are talking about. We had those same newspapers, who to-day are preaching economy to the Councils, preaching three or four years ago, patriotism of a very opposite kind to that which the Councils were trying to practise. The Councils with which I am connected are doing the work which the people sent them to do. There may, of course, be exceptions, but is the whole country to be held up for money in order that two or three black sheep are to be treated as they deserve? The Local Government Department should keep an eye on the various Councils and see that they do not treat the ratepayers otherwise than they should, but so far as Deputy Cooper's suggestion is concerned, the Minister should not pay any attention to it.
The last speaker has stolen my little thunder. It is a fact that a rate must be made some time in the beginning of February, and must be struck some day not later than March. If we are going to postpone the striking of a rate until the Local Government elections take place in June, I cannot see where the money is to be found to carry on local services. We should take account, as far as we can, of the difficulties that Councils have to contend with, and whilst they have done their duty in most cases to the ratepayers, I do not think that because two or three Councils have made default that the whole twenty-two or twenty-three Councils should be penalised for those three or four black sheep. If the motion Deputy Cooper proposed were carried, it would leave the majority of the Councils of the Free State in a bankrupt condition. I do not think that Deputy Cooper would like to see that state of affairs brought about. I hope the Minister will not accede to that request and that the Councils will carry out what the law intended them to carry out—to make a rate according to the estimates submitted to them, and with due regard to economies, which, I hope, they will all practise. The economy should be subservient to due consideration of the work which has to be done.
I will pay Deputy Corish the compliment of saying that in the county in which he has an official connection with public bodies the administration is everything that might be expected, but there are counties where the same cannot be said. I rise to make a suggestion to the Minister of finding a way out of the difficulty, because I realise we cannot let the public utilities lapse for want of money. I would ask the Minister to place a limit beyond which they cannot go on those extravagant Councils. We hear a lot of talk about the cost of living. I would ask the Minister to apply that doctrine to the rates to be struck in the near future. For example, if in 1914 the rate was 1/-, 80 points above a shilling ought to be the rate at the present time. In some counties it will be less. In counties where there is extravagance he could put a veto on the rate and tell the Councils they must not exceed a certain figure. We, as farmers, are not getting 80; we are getting 30 points. I think if he adopted that suggestion we would carry on and at the same time put some check on the expenditure in many cases.
Major Cooper, in drawing attention to this matter, has not tried to make any secret of his real intention, to force an election at a date earlier than that on which it would be held under the new register. I happen to be one of the members of the Dáil who, on several occasions, have drawn attention to the fact that arrears of rates have not been collected for many years.
I would not like to see any election held for local Councils until the question of old outstanding rates has been finally cleared up. If you are not going to put the machinery at the disposal of the Government behind the local bodies in insisting on the collection of outstanding rates and you allow the elections to be held before these rates are collected you will introduce into the elections many things that will injure local administration. You will have people asking their representatives whether they are going to assist in the collection of outstanding rates. It is a serious thing if those issues are going to be introduced into the elections. I trust the Minister will insist on the collection of all outstanding rates before any County Council elections are held.
Mr. EVERARD
As one who has taken part for some years in public administration, I was rather amused to hear Deputy Gorey and other people lecturing the present Councils, especially when they are making the threat that if an election is not held soon there would be a revolt. Some people who want public services to be carried out always want an excuse for not paying their lawful debts. The people we have to contend with are the people who in 1920 advised the different ratepayers not to pay rates to the County Councils, but to pay the money into banks and keep it there for a certain time until England had won. England was beaten, not alone with the help of the gunmen but with the help of the civil population, and of the public bodies in Ireland. Those people who carried out the Orders they received from the different ratepayers associations did not lodge their money to help the County Councils, but spent it. There is, at present, two or three years' rates due by those parties, who were always having an excuse in order to escape their obligations. Deputy Wilson asks the Minister for Local Government to put a limit upon the rate to be struck. There is a distance you can go in striking rates. There is no Council that will not endeavour to strike a rate sufficient to maintain the public services. I appeal to the Minister to have no election until those people who have been the enemies of the public bodies are forced to pay, in one way or another, the lawful debts that are due to the public bodies.
As one of the representatives of County Kildare I must say that a feeling approaching consternation exists at the prospect of having to continue to pay the present rate in that County. In County Kildare two years ago, the annual budget amounted to £32,000. The last rate amounted to £72,000. The abolition of the system of road-repairing by contract, entails an increase of £10,000 on the rates of the County. There never has been any organised opposition to the payment of rates in Kildare, but I have had it from rate collectors that there is an honest inability on the part of the ratepayers to pay the present rates. If this policy of striking high rates is persisted in, it will drive a great number of farmers into a state of bankruptcy. For that reason, I support the suggestion made by Deputy Cooper, and I hope the Government will see their way to agree to it.
Deputy Cooper in his speech has wandered somewhat from the spirit or from the wording of his question to-day. In that question he asked whether or not the Minister would consider the advisability of introducing legislation to postpone the striking of the rates for the current year until the new County and District Councils have been elected. He has somewhat reversed the process now, and in doing so he is on a good deal much firmer ground than he was in asking the question. I think the Deputy is fairly well satisfied with the answer I gave to his question. He has now asked me to consider the possibility of having the Local Government elections at an earlier date than we anticipated. In doing so, he and several other Deputies, have pleaded the cause of the ratepayers, and the fact that they find the present rates a very heavy burden. Representations have been made to me by several bodies of ratepayers throughout the country, and I have a certain amount of sympathy with the representations.
I realise that there is a substratum of truth in those representations, but I am afraid, like Mark Twain's death, those representations were in many cases greatly exaggerated. Farmers are pretty hard hit, and I know that they are dissatisfied with the present economic situation, but instead of trying to remedy their position by better organisation, and by bringing pressure to bear in other directions, they attack the rates because that is the most obvious and the easiest position to attack. The payment of rates is absolutely necessary if we are to maintain our position as a civilised country. We cannot allow hospitals, road repairs and such things to be discontinued. Even if we were to discontinue the payment of rates, I do not think it would materially assist the farmers. The real difficulty that I think the farmer has to face is that we have a double economic standard in Ireland at the present time. The farmer has to sell in a foreign market, and for that reason he cannot call upon any protection whatsoever. On the other hand, the cost of living in Ireland is determined by factors which are not opposed to the same competition as the farmer is. The retailer and the manufacturer in the Saorstát are more or less bolstered up, and for that reason the cost of living is much higher than the farmer's standard is able to support. That is the real difficulty the farmer is faced with, and he is not going to get out of that difficulty by asking us to reduce rates.
The present standard of rates is not so very high. As a matter of fact, we have effected great reductions. Owing to the amalgamation scheme, with the exception, I think, of County Kildare, where it has led to an increase, the reduction has amounted to 20 per cent. in the different counties. That is the reduction in money for poor relief. With regard to road repairs, which is another very costly service, the amount of money is certainly higher than it was in 1914-15, but if you take the cost of living into consideration, the amount expended on road repairs is very much less than it was in those years. Deputy Cooper has referred to the exceeding of the limit of road expenditure. The limit of road expenditure was fixed in the nineties, and practically every estimate exceeds the limit—that is the statutory limit at the present time. There is no good in making any capital out of that.
I have got no fixed ideas and no particular desire to postpone the elections, but I think in the interest of all parties concerned it would be much better to postpone the elections until the new register is completed. If we were to hold elections now they would have to be held on a register compiled in respect of a qualifying date ending the 15th October, 1922. Conditions at that time were not very favourable for the compilation of a register, and, as well as that, it will be a very old register in any case. For that reason alone I think it would be very inadvisable to hold the elections before the new register is completed.
Some of the Deputies in the Farmers' Party have referred to the fact that some of our County Councils are not all that could be desired. We are watching all these County Councils very closely and in any case where we consider they exceed the limit we take measures to get rid of them and to put in Commissioners. That is a very drastic step, and naturally we are reluctant to take it, but I think Deputies need have no fear that we are going to allow excessive rates to be struck throughout the country this year. As a matter of fact it is remarkable that in the rates that have been struck up to the present quite large reductions have been made. One Rural District Council that has been very much commented upon is Balrothery. I notice Balrothery, in its estimate, is coming down 45 per cent. this year. This is a considerable reduction.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.22 p.m. until 12 o'clock on Friday.