Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jan 1924

Vol. 6 No. 8

THE ADJOURNMENT. - DISTRESS IN TIRCONAILL.

Mr. WHITE

I regret it is my duty to bring under the notice of the Dáil, and the responsible Ministers, the appalling condition of affairs in Tirconaill. I am perfectly sure every Deputy is well acquainted with the distress prevailing there because they have read the articles which have appeared in the "Independent" within the last few weeks. Those articles refer to the most congested areas in the West of the county, and in the area I come from there are two or three districts in which the inhabitants are suffering from acute distress at the moment. They have no potatoes, the turf is very bad in quality and unfit to be burned, and they have no money to buy coal. That has arisen from a variety of causes, the very wet season being one, because they did not get an opportunity of getting their potatoes or turf in. Then the migratory population has absolutely failed to get employment in Scotland and other places where they used to get employment and bring money home.

My object in bringing forward this motion is for the purpose of giving the responsible Minister an opportunity of letting us hear what is proposed to meet the acute condition of affairs in Tirconaill. I do not intend to occupy your time to any great extent. I consider it is my duty to bring this matter forward, and to see that it is met in some sort of an adequate manner. I am not an advocate of charitable doles. I do not believe in doles, because my opinion is they are demoralising. My suggestion to the Minister for Local Government is that money should be provided for productive employment, such as reclamation, drainage, the making and improving of roads, and in that way find work for those unfortunate people who are affected by the semi-famine. I am afraid if something is not done the word "semi" will be dropped out, and it will be absolutely a whole famine.

There is another matter. As I am on this subject, I cannot acquit the Minister for Fisheries from blame, because all along the coastline a very great amount of distress prevails, and if proper protective measures had been taken, a large number of those people would not be in distress, but would be in a position to earn a reasonable livelihood by fishing. But what has happened? Foreign trawlers have stolen their fish and deprived the people of the means of earning their livelihood and pursuing the avocations that they and their forefathers followed, with the result that at present the whole fishing population is in a state of absolute starvation. These men want no charity; they want work, and I think the Minister has not displayed the agility he should display in protecting the fisheries along the coastline. The Department he represents is costing the Saorstát a very considerable sum of money, and, so far as we are concerned in Donegal or Tirconaill, we are getting very little return for the money the Department is costing. The Minister told us—but I am in some doubt about it—that there were patrol boats along the coastline. Of course, I do not doubt the statement, but what happens is: the patrol boats come out in the morning from Lough Swilly and make a round of the district as far as Lough Foyle, and they get back to Lough Swilly in time for the crew to buy the evening paper.

There is a sum of £13,000 which has not been spent. The County Council of Tirconaill blamed the Local Government Ministry, and the Local Government Ministry blamed the County Council of Tirconaill, and between them they hold up the £13,000 grant, which I believe ought to be spent on a road scheme. This matter should be cleared up by the Local Government Ministry at once.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

at this stage took the Chair.

Mr. WHITE

Another matter I suggested to the Minister for Agriculture on two or three occasions is that since the beginning of October he should have stopped the exportation of potatoes and oats until the seed time and until the seed is in the ground, instead of allowing them to be sent away and then trying to replace them by imported seed. It is a bad policy to allow the food out, and then to be bringing it back again. A precedent for that prohibition was created in 1917, when the export of potatoes was prevented except on a permit. This Order which was enforced in 1917 should be enforced now, when things are worse, and probably, so far as Donegal is concerned, the distress is greater now —at any rate, in some parts of it—than it was in 1879. In my opinion, although it is a drastic step to advocate the stopping of the export of potatoes or oats or butter from districts in the county, I think it should be stopped for the present at any rate. Last week I understood that large quantities of potatoes were shipped from areas in Donegal, and were sent to Scotland. Then we have Scotch potatoes being bought by the officials of the Department of Agriculture and sent back to Donegal.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is that the Farmers' Union's policy?

Mr. WHITE

It is a policy to meet the existing conditions of famine. I do not know whose policy you would describe it as. I do not intend to deal with the matter any further now. I simply place the facts before the responsible Minister, and I would like to hear what proposals he has to make in reply in order to meet the acute distress in Tirconaill.

Mr. McFADDEN

Although I do not agree with all the remedies put forward by Deputy White, I do agree with him that there is a lot of poverty on the West Coast—not only in Donegal but all over other parts of Ireland as well. I cannot agree either in saying that the present Ministers for Agriculture and for Fisheries have not moved. I suppose they have moved as much as circumstances permit them, but I hope that they will move a little faster in the future and see that no famine or semi-famine takes place in these poverty-stricken places that Deputy White and I represent. Our people are a proud people. They hate to have their sores and wounds exposed to the world. If Providence has placed them in an unfortunate position they do not want the whole world to know about them. They think they would come to a wrong conclusion, perhaps, as to the cause of the poverty in Donegal. In old days, when our representatives had to go to a foreign Parliament and beg for them, they no doubt used to tell a pathetic story and to circulate a great many stories that were not true. The present condition does not allow that. This is an exceptional year, as Deputy White has said, and the people are in great distress. But they are not begging. They look upon themselves as part and parcel of the Saorstát, and think that the Saorstát should do what is right and proper in relieving that distress—not by doles but by advancing money for works that will contribute to the national wealth in the future. I hope the Minister will take notice of the fact that distress prevails on the West Coast of Donegal and in a good many other places.

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Mr. Burke)

This question of distress in Tirconaill has been before my notice for some considerable time. Unfortunately I am not in a position at the moment to deal with it as fully as I would like. I heard conflicting reports from that part of the country, and I sent down there an inspector specially to see how the conditions there were, and to let me know what were the best means of dealing with the situation. This question of distress is one that has to be dealt with in a comprehensive way. Unfortunately distress throughout the country owing to the great extent of the activities against the Government during the last 18 months, is not confined to any particular class or to any particular area. You have distress in Tirconaill, in Dublin, and in the families of working men throughout the country, you have distress or hunger written on the faces of many people who might have been considered well-to-do some time ago. It is all part of the price we have to pay for the expensive luxury of civil war. The question of relieving distress that has been brought about by economic causes is always a difficult one to deal with, because there is always the danger that in relieving distress of that kind you may be relieving it in an unintelligent way, or in a way that will yield no economic return, and that you will increase the number of people to whom you will have to distribute help. Our resources for the relief of distress are very limited, and we have to be very cautious, in calling on these resources, that we do not increase the seriousness of the problem.

At the present moment our principal care must be to see that whatever money we provide for the relief of distress is reproductive and that it will be economically helpful. It is with that object in view that we have made such large sums available for the reconditioning of the roads and the rebuilding of houses, the two principal economic needs of the Saorstát at the moment. The question of distress in Tirconaill is a recurring one, and, of course, the main reason for that distress is that the people are living there on uneconomic holdings and under uneconomic conditions. That problem has been accentuated this year, and the only way the problem can be finally dealt with, I believe, is to get these people out, or at least a sufficiently large number of them to leave economic holdings to the remainder. There is a great difficulty in Ireland in getting people to leave their native homes, but under the recent Land Act it should be possible to make arrangements to put them on economic holdings. The problem is further accentuated this year owing to a combination of circumstances. There is, I believe, a partial failure of the potato crop, but I do not think it is as serious as some Deputies imagine. I think the reason why they consider the potato crop so bad this year is because they contrast it with the crop of last year, which is supposed to have been the best potato crop the country produced during the last twenty years. There has, however, been a failure to some extent in the potato crop, and the Minister for Agriculture is taking steps to deal with that problem by providing seed immune to disease.

Another cause of distress is the disappearance of the various industries which flourished up to some time ago, such as sprigging, and various little cottage industries of that kind. These are problems that we are not prepared to deal with at the moment. There is also, I understand, a partial failure in the turf supply owing to the wet weather. The people living up in that part of the country have found it impossible to draw the turf out of the bogs, and the result is that they are in a bad way for firing. There is another matter which has also helped to place the people of the district in a bad way. The migratory labourers found it impossible to get work in Scotland this year, so that a number of circumstances have combined to put these people into a very unfortunate position. As I say, at the moment I am not prepared to outline any scheme for special relief. They will have their ordinary portion of the road fund allocated to them, and I might also state that there are several grants that have been only partially availed of in Tirconaill, and when these grants are used up we will be in a position to see what further relief can be extended.

In reply to Deputy White, I might state for him the condition of these partially expended grants. Early in 1922 the Provisional Government allocated a sum of £11,000 to the County Council of Tirconaill for the relief of unemployment. The money was to be spent on road improvement and other constructive work, and schemes therefore were duly approved. Although this was a grant to relieve unemployment, only £2,844 had been expended up to the 31st March last, and the sum of £2,114 between that date and the end of November last, thus leaving a balance in the hands of the Council of over £6,000.

In August, 1922, a special grant of £20,000, known as the Dáil Relief of Distress Grant, was allotted to Tirconaill, and a scheme of road work was formulated and handed to the Council by an Engineering Inspector of the Ministry. The only condition placed upon the Council was that they should reorganise on an up-to-date basis their Roads Department so as to ensure the efficient supervision of the expenditure of the grant, and the keeping of proper records. Owing to failure to get on with the works, the grant was reduced to £15,000, of which £10,000 has been paid; this sum was to be paid in two instalments of £5,000 each, the second instalment being only paid owing to the delays of the Council a few months ago. Even then it was necessary to warn the Council that the remaining £5,000 would only be paid on the conditions originally laid down, as the Council had failed to carry them out.

British Government Grants for Road Work.—In April, 1919, grants amounting to £12,300 were made to the Council, and up to the 31st March, 1922, the balances outstanding amounted to £8,416, indicating that the progress of the works in the period of 3 years was slow. Claims for payment were, however, since received and had to be held up owing to the uncertainty concerning these grants, but £1,240 was paid out of the balance on the 10th inst.

£100,000 Trunk Road Grant.—On the 19th September, 1923, the County Council were offered a grant of £3,960 for the improvement of trunk roads. The County Council did not definitely approve of the proposals of their surveyors until the 13th November, although apparently the matter was to have come before them at their meeting in the previous month. So far a sum of £900 has been paid out of this grant, some of which is to meet estimated payments up to the 1st March next.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will the Minister say whether these unexpended balances are still available for the County Council?

Mr. BURKE

They are.

Mr. WHITE

I would be glad if the Minister would let me have, later on, a copy of the statement he has read out.

Mr. BURKE

I will have a copy of the statement furnished to the Deputy. That is the position of affairs at the present time, and I am not in a position now to make any further statement until I get a report from the inspector that I sent to the district. Probably the Minister for Fisheries will deal with the other problems that have been raised.

Major SPROULE MYLES

The Minister has given us a fund of information on the question of distress in Tirconaill. I am not in agreement with some of the statements he has made about the delinquency of the Co. Council of Tirconaill. Some of us have consistently attended these County Council meetings month after month, covering long distances on each occasion to do so. This question of the holding back of the alleged unexpended balances and the statement that has been made in reference to them is, to my mind, very misleading to the Dáil and to the public, because the idea given to the public is that the County Council of Tirconaill is not carrying out its duties. That is a view that I for a moment will not allow to go unchallenged. The whole question of these unexpended balances is a matter of a tussle on red tape between the County Council's officials and the Local Government Department. It was going on all last year. I am not in a position, because the matter has been sprung on me at short notice, to go into the full facts and figures, but, roughly, the situation is, as far as I am aware, that a sum amounting to several thousands was allotted to us a year ago. Certain conditions were attached to that grant. Suddenly, and without any warning, the Local Government Department said that any money that was not expended on the 1st May would be called in again. I maintain that the County Council's officials got no notice of the termination of that grant, or that it should be expended by a certain date. We have in Tirconaill one of the ablest county surveyors there is, I suppose, in Ireland, a man who has been in our service for a quarter of a century at least. And that man worked out his scheme in a proper manner. He has been held up by various things. He has been held up, to my mind, by the delay of the Local Government Department in sending forward this money. The fact remains that there is a balance apparently due to that Council. The county surveyor has his schemes, but he has no money to spend on them. There is another point that kept back this thing. This money was alloted to the county for road improvements. Each of the surveyors put forward his plan. The Local Government Department sent their own engineer who put forward a different set of plans. The Council were rather between the devil and the deep sea. On the one hand, if they carried out their own plans they would not get the money. Eventually they tried to carry out the Local Government Department's plans. Meantime the Local Government Department stated that they had not expended the money before a certain date, as specified, and withheld the balance. That is the position of Donegal County Council.

I assure the Minister for Local Government that it was not any slackness on the part of the Donegal County Council that was responsible. You might call it a misunderstanding if you like, but it is not our fault or our want of energy in pushing forward the work on our roads that has been the cause of the holding up of that balance.

AIRE UM IASGACH (Fionán O Loingsigh)

An ceád rud ba mhaith liom a rádh nach bhfuil gádh le iarrtas mar seo. Ma tá gádh leis i d-Tír Conaill tá gádh leis in gach áird de'n tír. Ma tá gádh leis i dTír Conaill, tá gádh leis i gConndae Múigheo, i gConndae na Gáillimhe i gConndae an Chláir agus i gConndae Ciarruíghe, agus mar sin de.

I think that one has to discount to a great extent a good deal of the argument or dope—whatever one likes to call it—that is put up on occasions like this, with regard to distress. One must really realise that a good deal of it is stunt business.

Mr. WHITE

No.

Mr. LYNCH

I say, sir, yes.

Mr. WHITE

So far as I am concerned, it is not a stunt. Every statement I have made is backed up by facts.

Mr. LYNCH

I have not said the Deputy has made a stunt.

Mr. GOREY

On a point of order, A Leas-Chinn Chomhairle, is the word "stunt" parliamentary, or is it in the dictionary of the Dáil, or the dictionary of any language?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

It would be as well if it were not used.

Mr. LYNCH

The Deputy referred to the fishery districts, which are supposed to be in frightful distress. The particular place in distress is, I believe, Gweedore, and as a matter of actual fact, our reports from there are to this effect: "There is an evident lack of energy amongst the crews, notably in the Gweedore district, where, from reports recently to hand, it is stated that valuable boats fitted with costly motor-engines have been allowed by the crews to remain water-logged, involving costly repairs to remedy the damage caused by neglect."

These boats have, either by the Ministry of Fisheries, or most likely by their predecessors, been provided at a big cost on loan to these people. These persons have got these boats, and because they felt that, after all, it was not their concern, they could let these boats "go be hanged."

Mr. WHITE

There is no fish for them when they go out in the boats. The trawlers have the fish all stolen.

Mr. LYNCH

I will talk about that, too. We have taken measures, as far as was in our power, with regard to the protection of fisheries outside the coast from the poaching trawler. The fact is that there are boats lying up.

Mr. WHITE

What is the good of boats if there are no fish?

Mr. LYNCH

The fact is that some of the very people who are complaining are the persons who are preventing the patrol boats from being effective, because they are in the pay of the poaching trawlers; they are getting cheap coal and cheap Scotch whiskey, I believe, and other things, and these are the people that complain that the Ministry of Fisheries is at fault. They or their friends around give the game away when the patrol boat is coming along.

I do not think there was anything the Deputy said which it is necessary for me to answer. If he thinks that because I have inherited, as it were, the fishery functions of the C.D.B., I also inherited their more or less charitable functions, he is making a mistake. I am now, as a Minister in charge of a Department, responsible to the Dáil for every penny which is spent, and I cannot spend money in the same way as the C.D.B. spent it. I have got to account for every penny to the Minister for Finance first, and afterwards to the Dáil. I am in an entirely different position from the C.D.B. They had an Endowment Fund, which they could spend more or less as they liked, so long as they had vouchers. They were not responsible to a Minister for Finance. I am. I am not an inheritor of that particular function of the C.D.B. I am an inheritor of their fishery functions, so far as fishery administration and fishery development are concerned. But that is all. I am in sympathy with the Deputy in promoting anything in an area like Donegal, but the same thing applies to Mayo, Galway, Kerry and part of Cork. I am in entire agreement with him that something must be done to get those people who have no other means of livelihood, and even part-time fishermen, at least something to live on. So far as that is concerned, I am in entire agreement with him, and I am constantly putting up to Finance suggestions to further that opinion of mine.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.55 p.m. until Friday, 25th January, at 12 noon.