As my name has been mentioned, I must say I have no immediate recollection of the undertaking that Deputy Hogan says I gave. I believe I gave an undertaking that we would facilitate an inquiry. I would ask the Dáil to consider what is asked for in this resolution.
We are asked to go back to the year 1899, that is 24 years ago, and to furnish particulars for that particular year. Now, I would like to know what possible bearing the cost of services in the year 1899—the first year after the Local Government Act came into operation—can have in relation to the cost of services to-day. I do know that in the intervening period of years many and important services have been brought into operation in Local Government. An enormous extension of expenditure has also been incurred, and I think it is what the lawyers would call special pleading, to bring in a thing of that sort. I have some experience of local enquiries, of sworn enquiries, and so on. I was a member of a local authority in Dublin for a great many years, and I say, from the experience I have gained there, that piles and piles of statistics serve no useful purpose. They are rarely of use in coming to a sensible conclusion on any subject that is being considered; they only provide ammunition for the legal profession to support, or attempt to support, in whatever manner they may consider best in their own interest, the case that is put up. They support their case from some remote statistics that are probably as much out of date as any event that happened in 1899 is with things that occur to-day. Coming to the third paragraph in the Return asked for, we are asked for a list of officials superannuated in the County Clare. I think that information could be had in Thom's Directory; I am not quite sure, but I know that up to recent years one would find that information in Thom's Directory. What is asked for, according to this resolution, is to put some official of the Local Government Department at work in order to compile this, and supposing you had the whole lot furnished to you, what advantage would be derived from it? A case ought to be made, if public money is going to be expended, that some advantage is going to be derived from the information asked for, if it is going to entail cost in supplying.
When I was Minister for Local Government I realised the size of the problem we had in hand, and the dislocation that arose in the accounts of the local authorities and services of the local authorities, and the big work there was in trying to keep the machine going at all, with the cogs knocked completely out of some of the wheels, and some not operating at all, and so on. When it was first mentioned by the Government that was operating from the Custom House that grants would be withheld from local authorities it became immediately necessary to economise on every side, and to cut down services which might be even remotely described as luxuries or extravagant ones, and in that particular category there was one service which could not by any stretch of the imagination be called a luxury or an extravagance, but which was not heard of at all in 1899, and that is the treatment of tuberculosis. There was a particular reason for stopping any expenditure that could possibly be avoided in connection with that service because half of the cost, if my recollection is correct, was borne by the Local Government Board, and so on with regard to many other services; and to ask for a return of 1918 and 1919 is also unreasonable if the case be that in those years it was x pounds and that now it is 2½ times x pounds. I am sure the Deputy would admit himself that it would be impossible for him to submit to this House his budget of expenditure in 1918 and 1919, and to give his budget for 1922 and 1923. A great many of these returns which were in the custody and possession of the particular Department then in charge in the Government of Ireland were destroyed. The Deputy will admit that that was the case. He has probably heard of an accident at the Custom House a couple of years ago, when many documents were destroyed. To give these returns now asked for would mean that we would have to get into communication with every local authority in every county and ask them to look up their files and so forth, and to send in particulars of every case, and then when you have got them it would take an accountant—a legal man well versed in local government—to be able to make anything out of them.
I am positively certain that if the Deputy were to see the Minister for Local Government and to narrow down the points he wants information upon, and if he gave some consideration to the events of the last three or four years the Minister for Local Government would meet him in a reasonable demand. I have no recollection of ever saying to any deputation from the Co. Clare that I would seek for and get particulars tabulated showing the cost of services in 1899 and 1914, and 1918 and 1919, and 1922 and 1923. I have no recollection of saying anything of that kind at all.
