Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Mar 1924

Vol. 6 No. 31

ARMY POSITION. - PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT.

General O'Duffy reports that the Army position is normal, that conditions generally are satisfactory, and that discipline is being maintained. Munitions which were removed from two barracks in the Dublin Command have been returned. I have to make a reservation, however, with regard to that: that complete checking has not yet been finished. There is a question of doubt with regard to one particular instrument. The total number of officers involved in the affair generally, according to the latest information furnished to me, is something under 100. The number of resignations is somewhere about forty, and the number of officers who have absented themselves from their posts is about fifty. A complete list has not yet been furnished to the Executive Council on this point. I should say that what has happened down in Leitrim, with regard to the apprehending of a man named Keegan, supports the claim that normal conditions are the rule down there, as is evidenced by the fact of this man's arrest. There are few people in the country who have given a greater amount of trouble, and many attempts have been made up to this to apprehend him. I much regret the death of an officer in connection with that affair.

I have no further information with regard to the Cobh incident, but the work of tracing and apprehending the perpetrators is going ahead, and quite a number of reports has been received and information furnished. There has been a general desire, as far as the information placed before me is concerned, on the part of every person, to assist in tracing the perpetrators, of that very foul deed, but I have nothing further to say with regard to any real success in tracing the perpetrators.

It is with the utmost regret that one has to assume that the President's illness has kept him so misinformed as to the position of affairs in the Dáil last week, as to suggest, even to his mind, that a statement such as he has made is a satisfactory answer to the question that was put to him. Surely, the President knows that the Dáil is in need of information as to the position resulting from the proceedings of last week in the Army and in the Executive Council. If the information that the President has given is all that he is prepared to give, then, of course, we know that we are being fooled as a Dáil. I will say no more at this stage.

The only other point which I did not think was connected with that was the appointment of another Minister. I should say that I have not had time yet to deal with that.

Since my return to duty we have had but one Executive Council meeting, and at that meeting there was quite an amount of business to be transacted. I am not in a position now to make any further announcement, but I believe that within a day, or possibly two days, it may be possible to do so. I should say that the Ministry of Defence is a very extensive Ministry, and the amount of time it absorbs is very considerable. I think Deputies generally will understand that, having regard to the number of occasions upon which the ex-Minister for Defence was absent from the House. I expect that within twenty-four, or possibly forty-eight hours, I will be in a position to deal with the other matters that, I think, Deputy Johnson has in his mind. I would be very sorry that he or any other Deputy in the Dáil would think that there was any intention, innocent or otherwise, on the part of the Executive Council, or on my own part, to fool the Dáil.

To my mind, the statement the President has made is a very bald statement. He has not referred to the Army position down the country. Is he aware, I ask, that a considerable number of men under arms, probably from the Templemore area, have been about, and I do not know at the moment but that they are still about, the Kilkenny-Tipperary border? I know that they were there on Friday and Saturday. I would also like to know the position with regard to the reported resignations, and all the rest, in the Cabinet and in the Government party. The newspapers were full of this sort of thing, and I think it would be very wholesome if a statement were made from the Government benches affirming or denying these reports. There is also a bit of anxiety in our minds with regard to the Government attitude on this question. It is a delicate subject, and I do not like to say much about it. A good many people in the country think that a certain section who organised themselves in the Army are having unduly favourable treatment, or that they are getting consideration that in the circumstances I, for one, think they do not deserve. I do not want to say more about the matter, having regard to the delicacy of the position.

I beg to give notice that I shall ask leave to move the adjournment of the Dáil to call attention to a matter of urgency and of public importance, namely, charges made by the ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce that understandings with Army officers made on behalf of the Executive Council have been broken, and that assurances were given that mutinous officers were to be reinstated. The President has failed, I think, to give satisfaction to the Dáil as regards the position, and I submit, in view of the few paragraphs of information he did give, that these rather confirm the necessity for dealing with these matters. For instance, he told us that a complete list of the resignations and abstentions had not yet been furnished to the Executive Council. Surely that is a matter on which the Dáil has a right to have some information. I am astonished that the President should think that the Dáil can be fobbed off with the kind of information that he has given to us.

Will twelve Deputies support the request of Deputy Johnson that the Order Paper be suspended?

The necessary number of Deputies having risen.

Under the Standing Orders, if we were sitting from 3 o'clock until 8.30, the Order Paper would be suspended at 7 o'clock for the consideration of this matter. As we meet early to-day, perhaps we could come to an agreement as to what time this motion would be taken.

Would 5 O'clock be agreeable?

I think there is some little difficulty about deciding the matter of time. Owing to these things that have arisen financial business has been postponed and is very late. It will be necessary to get the Supplementary Estimates considered and the Central Fund Bill through all its stages before to-morrow night. It is necessary that the Central Fund Bill should go to the Seanad on Friday, and probably it will be necessary for the Dáil to meet on Monday, in case the Seanad make any recommendations. Recommendations made by the Seanad to a Money Bill must be considered by the Dáil before the Money Bill can be sent to the Governor-General. It is necessary that the Bill should go to the Governor-General by Monday evening at latest. So that really the Central Fund Bill must go through all its stages by to-morrow, and these Estimates, of course, must go through before the Central Fund Bill; so that it is a matter for deciding whether we would take a certain amount of time for the Army business, and resume and sit late, at any rate so disposing of this matter, that we shall have time to get the Estimates considered and the Central Fund Bill through by to-morrow night.

May I suggest that if the matter were taken at 5 o'clock and enough business had not been gone through by 5 o'clock there might be agreement to let the motion to adjourn pass at 8 o'clock, then revert to the Orders of the Day, and continue until such time as the business would be completed.

Might I suggest to the Minister for his serious consideration that it will probably be very much easier to get the Estimates considered after the matter which we will require to raise has been disposed of. It would be quite impossible to discuss Estimate No. 3, for instance, No. 58, and perhaps No. 64, without raising incidentally many matters which might well be disposed of much more satisfactorily if the Ministry is prepared to give the Dáil satisfaction on the question which has been agitating the minds of the people for the last fortnight. I would suggest that some of what might probably be the less contentious Estimates might be taken and then an early hour fixed for the motion for the adjournment, immediately after the luncheon adjournment, I suggest.

The difficulty I see with regard to that is if we come back after lunch and if the adjournment is moved then, would it mean that we have an adjournment for the day, or does the Deputy agree that the adjournment should be to 5 or 6 o'clock, so that we could return and finish the business?

If the President opposes the motion for the adjournment and succeeds in defeating it then we will not adjourn.

Very good. I am prepared to take it after 3 o'clock.

To take the motion at 3 o'clock?

My proposal is that we would adjourn from 2 o'clock to 3, and when we come back the question can be raised, and I take it the matter will be then whether or not we adjourn.

The Order Paper will be suspended at 3 o'clock for the consideration of a matter of urgent public importance on a motion for the adjournment. The Dáil will go into Committee on Finance for the consideration of Supplementary Estimates.

On this motion——

What is the motion?

The motion that we go into Committee on Finance.

We have not been in the habit of proposing any such motion. We have been in the habit of going into Committee on Finance without question put. Perhaps there is a question that the Deputy wants to raise?

The point I want to raise is that we have suddenly had a Vote on Account substituted for the Supplementary Estimates which have been on the Order Paper for the last fortnight.

They are not. They are separate items.

It is not a substitution; it is an addition. In connection with the discussion on Supplementary Estimates, I would like to remind Deputies that the debate on Supplementary Estimates is restricted to the particular items contained in the Estimates for which grants are sought. The debate, therefore, does not touch the general policy of a Department except in so far as such policy, or expenditure, is brought before the Committee by the items contained in the Supplementary or Excess Estimates. For example, some Deputy mentioned that on the Supplementary Estimates for the Army Deputies desired to raise questions as to the delay in the payment of accounts.

Not on the Supplementary Estimates, but on the Vote on Account for the Army.

On the Supplementary Estimates for the Army there is a token Vote asked for gratuities payable on demobilisation to certain officers with prolonged (including pre-truce) service. The debate will therefore be confined to that particular item. I want to make Deputies' minds clear on that question.

I take it that when a matter is an entirely new one, that is, not additional to an already voted sum, that the policy of the Executive Council or the administration of that Department which results in the requirement of that new item is subject to discussion?

Yes, the policy involved in the new expenditure is always a subject for discussion.

Top
Share