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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Apr 1924

Vol. 6 No. 37

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - COMPENSATION FOR LIVE STOCK.

I beg to move the motion standing in my name, which is as follows:—

"That the Minister for Agriculture be directed to take action in the matter of the conditions obtaining with regard to the importation of Irish cattle into Great Britain on the lines suggested by the Irish Cattle Exporters Association at their meeting on the 12th March, 1924, viz., that the Free State and Northern Ireland Governments hold themselves responsible for payment of compensation for live stock compulsorily slaughtered in British lairages until the usual detention period of ten hours expires, and after that that representations be made to the British Government to accept liability for payment when proof is established that the disease was contracted in Great Britain."

This is a question of vital interest and of considerable importance, not alone to the men engaged in the export trade of Irish live stock, but to the whole agricultural community of the Saorstát. Accordingly, I would ask the sympathetic attention of the Dáil to the views I am going to put forward. These views are the considered opinion of the whole live stock trade, and I am glad to say they have received the sympathetic consideration of the Party to which I have the honour to belong.

In order to put Deputies in possession of the full facts of the case, I will commence by stating the present position. Deputies are aware that all live stock exported from this country are at present subjected to a detention period of ten hours at the ports of landing in Great Britain, after which if they show a clean bill of health a licence is issued for their removal to their destination. As matters stand at present, if those cattle, sheep or pigs, while being detained in the lairages, contract foot and mouth disease, they are slaughtered by order of the British Board of Agriculture, and no compensation is paid to the owners either by the British or Irish Governments, because the lairages in which they are kept are regarded as a sort of No Man's Land, and the cattle are looked upon as neither English nor Irish. I am sure that the Dáil will consider that this is a great hardship on Irish exporters of live stock, who, as matters stand at present, are compelled to suffer the total loss. I wish to point out that up to the passing of the Free State Act, and for the past thirty years, when Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom so far as the Diseases of Animals Act was concerned, the same regulations applied to both countries, and any Irish animals slaughtered at the British landing-places suffering from foot and mouth disease were paid for by the British authorities. I had better explain how these regulations affecting Great Britain and Ireland came into force, because they have a great bearing on this question.

In the nineties, when Canadian cattle were being imported into England, they brought in pleuro-pneumonia, which, next to rinderpest, is the worst and the most deadly of cattle diseases. This disease spread with great rapidity throughout the country, and thousands of cattle were slaughtered all over England. The Government of the day made an order in 1894, under the Diseases of Animals Act, prohibiting the importation of cattle into the United Kingdom, except for slaughter at the landing stations at the ports, and declaring that all countries outside the United Kingdom were foreign countries within the meaning of the Act.

There is no such place as the United Kingdom.

I am speaking about legislation that was passed in 1894, before the Treaty.

It was then, I think, the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland.

This, as I have said, has a great bearing on the position today. For thirty years since the passing of that Act up to the passing of the Free State Act, the same regulations, so far as the Diseases of Animals Act is concerned, applied to the two countries. Those regulations remained the law of the land up to the passing of the Free State Act, after which the embargo on the importation of Canadian cattle was removed, and then a short time afterwards foot-and-mouth disease broke out in England. Then the question arose as to whether the regulations of this Act or Order of 1894, which were translated into an Act of Parliament in 1896, still applied, or, in other words, whether Ireland was still an integral part of the United Kingdom or a foreign country. Sir Edward Carson said that Northern Ireland was still an integral part of the United Kingdom, but that Southern Ireland, being a Free State, and having the same status as Canada, was a foreign country within the meaning of the Act of 1896. That put up another Boundary question; but the British Government settled it by passing fresh legislation called the Importation of Animals Act, 1922, and it is under this Act that we are working at present and with which we have to comply. The position, so far as exportation of live stock from Ireland to Great Britain is concerned, is that neither the Free State Government, the Government of Northern Ireland, nor the British Government accept responsibility for animals slaughtered in Great Britain. Naturally this is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction among agriculturists generally, and the question must be dealt with sooner or later, and the sooner the better. While every protection is afforded to a British agriculturist whose stock is slaughtered owing to foot-and-mouth disease, this sword of Damocles is still hanging over the heads of men engaged in this industry in Ireland. It may be put forward by the Minister for Agriculture that there is no money at his disposal to pay compensation to owners for losses sustained by the slaughter of their stock at the landing places.

It might save time if I explained that I will not put forward that contention.

I would like to state for the information of the House that from 1894 up to 1922 there was always a sum voted in the British House of £140,000 annually to cope with contagious diseases. There was £40,000 of this set aside to stamp out swine fever. There was £100,000 put at the disposal of the Ministry to stamp out other diseases. When we were legally an integral part of the United Kingdom and when we had a visitation, as we had here in 1912, of which I have sad memories, because nearly everyone engaged in the trade then suffered immense losses, and when we were restricted for a considerable time before the disease was stamped out, compensation was paid, and I have received from the Department of Agriculture a return of the amount of compensation that was paid from 1914 to 1923. This is a return showing the number and kind of animals and the amount paid to owners, inclusive. In 1914 the amount paid for cattle was £1,119; for swine, £380. In 1921 the amount paid was £197; and at Holyhead £585 was paid. The total amount paid was £2,281 17s. 8d. There was nothing paid since the Free State Act was passed for the recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease, and the owners in those cases had to stand the whole loss, which was very considerable. In one case in particular brought to my notice a man lost £456 on 50 head of cattle. I want to contrast the position of a man in the live stock trade here with that of the man on the other side. Of that £140,000 that was voted from 1894 up to 1922, Ireland, whenever disease broke out, got a share; but in 1922, when foot-and-mouth disease was rampant through Great Britain, in that year alone the compensation awarded to owners for the slaughter of cattle in Great Britain amounted to the sum of £751,000. The grant was then no good, and here is a statement made by the new Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Buxton, as to what they did. I hope it will be a headline for our Ministry.

"The Minister explained that the resolution would pave the way for a Bill to meet the costs of the present visitation of foot-and-mouth disease, which had proved very much in excess of the statutory limitation. The outbreak in 1922 had cost £751,000. The Government of that day decided to depart from the usual practice, and that only one-half of the cost should be defrayed from Imperial Funds, leaving the remaining half to be borne on local funds. In regard to the present epidemic, the late Government had to decide what should be done to pay for it, and, not long before they left office, it was agreed that the greater part of the expense should be borne by the Exchequer. The present Government had decided to follow that procedure. Of the maximum sum of £140,000 which by the Act of 1894 might be devoted annually to defray the cost on diseases of animals, £40,000 had always been kept back for swine fever, so that only £100,000 was left for dealing with other diseases. This outbreak had cost the enormous sum—comparatively speaking—of £3,250,000. It was proposed that the share of the expenditure chargeable to the Local Taxation Account, in the case of England, should be limited to a sum estimated at £250,000. The amount chargeable to the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account would be 12-88ths of the share borne by the English account. In view of the possible contingency that it may be necessary to exceed next year the amount allowed by Statute, it was proposed to remove the limitation for two years."

As you see there, the British Ministry, with the exception of the £250,000 that is going to be raised out of the Imperial Exchequer, have paid the huge amount of £3,000,000 to British owners for compensation for losses sustained by the slaughter of animals. We are in a very chaotic condition in this country at the present time, and that is due to a fact that men in the trade do not know exactly where they stand. They know well that the British will accept no responsibility for losses sustained, even though the disease is contracted, as it has been, in Great Britain; and the fact that, despite all the attempts made by enemies of this country and of the trade to try and instil into the minds of the British public that we are cloaking up the disease, we have proved—thanks to our efficient Board of Agriculture—that this country has the cleanest bill of health of any country in the world so far as live stock is concerned.

It is very disheartening to men engaged in the industry, who have for a number of years done their best to make it flourish and prosper, to be rendered nervous by reason of the fact that prevailing conditions are not in any way satisfactory. I bring forward this motion in order to focus the attention of the Executive Council, and especially the Minister for Agriculture, on the fact that something must be done, and done quickly. Otherwise great hardships are going to be inflicted upon the trade. Often times great losses are incurred by those engaged in the export trade, and also by the farming community.

Deputies can well realise the effect in this country of a disease that has spread like a prairie fire all over England, and of the spasmodic outbreaks at the ports. Often times it has occurred that when an outbreak takes place in England a wire is sent to those engaged in the export trade here, acquainting them of the outbreak and the fact that animals have to be slaughtered. That immediately causes a lot of persons in this country to abstain from buying, and cattle drop from £2 to £5 a head often. Not alone is the exporter hit, but the farming community suffers, and the man who suffers worst of all is the man who is raising store cattle.

This industry is larger and more important than many realise. I desire to show the Dáil the extent of this industry by quoting portion of the evidence given by Mr. T. P. Gill at a Commission of Inquiry into the removal of the embargo on Canadian cattle. No doubt you are all aware Mr. Gill was over twenty years Secretary of the Department of Agriculture. In his evidence he stated that: "The total cattle herd in Ireland had been increased in twenty years by over half a million head; the annual supply to Great Britain has been increased by 125,000 head. But the improvement in quality—their quality as beef, and as early maturers and quick fatteners—has been recently estimated as representing an intrinsic value, irrespective of market fluctuations, of £5 a head. In 1920 Ireland had only ten per cent. of the population. She had 43 per cent. of the cattle in the United Kingdom. She consumes less than one-quarter of the cattle she produces; the rest are sent to Great Britain. Two out of every five beef cattle slaughtered in Great Britain before the war were born in Ireland. During the period of the war Ireland sent to Great Britain 3,862,223 cattle, and none were lost through submarine action."

Now, I hope that I have convinced Deputies that it is absolutely necessary something should be done in the near future. I hope the Minister for Agriculture will give this motion his support. If he does not see his way to give it the support that the members of the live stock trade expect, I would like to know what the Government propose to do. Now that we are not pooled with Great Britain so far as the expenses of the Diseases of Animals Act is concerned, I would like to know if, since the Treaty, any separate sum has been set aside under that Act to cope with contagious diseases here, such as foot-and-mouth disease and swine fever. If there has been, I think the Minister would be quite justified in compensating owners for losses sustained, the same as owners were paid out of the British Exchequer in days gone by. The trade want the Government here to accept responsibility and pay compensation for losses sustained by exporters until the licence is issued after the detention period of ten hours is completed. Then, after that, representations should be made to the British authorities to pay compensation out of their funds.

I wish to remind the Deputy—I am sorry to have to do so—that we have only twenty minutes left, and the Minister must be given some time to reply.

I do not wish to mislead the Dáil into supposing that in making representations to Great Britain in this matter we can be treated as a purely isolated case, because of the fact that we are a Dominion the same as Canada, Australia and South Africa, and that it is possible to legislate for us without legislating for other parts of the Dominions. I quite agree the British Authorities may put up that argument if the Minister approaches them on the compensation question. I hold it is within the power of the Minister for Agriculture here to compensate owners for losses sustained up to the expiry of the ten hours' detention period. After that representations could be made to the British Government. If the trade got in the thin edge of the wedge by getting the Ministry to accept responsibility up to the time the licence is issued, it would take a lot of uneasiness from the minds of those engaged in the industry. I hope something will accrue from this discussion to satisfy the trade. At present the members of the trade are dissatisfied.

I beg to second the motion. I will not approach this matter from the point of view of hardships inflicted on the trade, but rather from the point of view of what seems to me to be a grave injustice to the agricultural community. The position at present is intolerable. The matter is on anything but a businesslike basis.

Cattle leave our ports, land in Great Britain and are detained for ten hours. While they are there, they are neither English nor Irish. Unfortunately for the people dealing in the trade, they are destroyed. If an outbreak occurs in England within a 15-mile radius of the port, the cattle are taken and destroyed in the British interests. That is what we quarrel about. The British Government destroy them in the British interest and therefore it is plain that the British people ought to pay for them. That is the position as I see it. The position from the English point of view is indefensible, and it is the duty of the Minister for Agriculture to see that this thing is adjusted as between the two Boards of Agriculture, a conference, if necessary, taking place.

This is a very important question. It is an extremely important question. It affects a trade of something like £20,000,000 between this country and England, and I am sorry that we have not a longer time to deal with it. We spent an hour and a half on something preceding it which is of comparatively no importance whatever. But this is a matter which affects the biggest part of the Irish trade between Ireland and England, and there is not adequate time to deal with it.

May I suggest to the Minister that if this is of such great importance, that it is not absolutely necessary that the discussion should finish this evening.

Mr. HOGAN

I quite agree. I am very well aware that it is not necessary that this discussion should finish this evening. I am merely talking of the probabilities. Now, let me clear the ground. First of all, there is no point in quoting figures in connection with a sum that has been paid into a certain fund in order to enable the Treasury to pay for cattle slaughtered in Ireland and England before the Treaty. The position is this, shortly—we are only concerned with the law as it stands. Now, the law as it at present stands is that the English pay for all cattle slaughtered in England, except the cattle that are slaughtered at the wharves or landing-places. We would pay for all the cattle, regardless of cost, slaughtered in Ireland because of the foot-and-mouth disease. The Irish Government pays for all the cattle slaughtered in Ireland as a result of getting infected with foot-and-mouth disease, or such contagious disease. The English Government pays for all the cattle slaughtered in England, except, as I have said, the cattle slaughtered at the wharf or landing-place. There is just one point. Who is to pay for the cattle slaughtered at the English wharves or landing-places? It is a very important point, and a highly contentious point. I was extremely glad that Deputy McKenna brought this motion forward. I would like to have it fully discussed in the Dáil by every Party. Because I would like to have the benefit of the views of all sections.

The fact is that nobody pays for the cattle slaughtered at the English wharf or landing place. The proposal of Deputy McKenna was that we should make an offer to the British Government; that we should say, "We will pay for all the cattle slaughtered at the landing places provided they are slaughtered within ten hours." Deputy Gorey's proposal is slightly different. His position shortly is this: That we should not pay for any cattle except cattle slaughtered in Ireland, and that we should not admit the principle that we are liable for compensation for cattle slaughtered in England. I agree with that at the moment. Let me read for the Dáil the section that deals with the landing of cattle in England, or, rather, let me deal with the Order. This is the Order made under the Importation of Animals Act, 1922. Under Section 3, the first paragraph of that Order runs as follows:

"The Minister has, by Order, directed:

(1) Each cargo of animals shall on landing at a landing place be driven to an approved reception lair, detained and isolated there, from all other animals, unless and until the whole cargo has been examined in daylight by an inspector, and until the expiration of ten hours after the landing of the last animal from the cargo, and until again their removal from the reception lairs is authorised by an inspector."

What does all that come to? Simply this: that the minimum period of detention for Irish cattle landed at English landing places is ten hours. The maximum may be ten weeks. It is in fact at present a week.

Six days.

Mr. HOGAN

That is right, but it can be extended much longer. I am sorry to hear from Deputy McKenna that a large section of the trade are in favour of the proposition he has put forward. I hope they are not in favour of it.

They are practically unanimous.

Mr. HOGAN

I am sorry to hear it. The proposition that is put up to me by the trade is this: "Make an offer to the English Government; say that the Irish Government will pay for the cattle slaughtered in England within the minimum period of ten hours." Now where does that lead? I do not want to develop this, and this matter should not be debated in the Dáil. But I ask any man here who is a farmer: Where is that going to lead? If we say here officially, "We are willing to admit the principle that we will pay for cattle slaughtered in England, but we will want the time confined to ten hours," where is it going to lead? I want an answer to that question. I will leave it to the Dáil. It is a proposition that I have definitely refused to put up. My position in the matter is simply this—that the English should pay for the cattle slaughtered in England unless and until it has been demonstrated that the cattle became infected in Ireland.

On a point of order I would like to know from the Minister why this question was not raised at the Imperial Economic Conference, because, in my opinion, it is a question that should be raised there and answered?

That is a question for the Minister. It is not a point of order.

Mr. HOGAN

The Imperial Economic Conference is the last place in which I would like to raise it. I will tell you why. I do not want to admit for a moment that our cattle are in the same position as the Canadian cattle. That is what raising it at the Economic Conference would mean. They are not. We have been making representations to the English Government for the last six months. It is an extremely difficult problem to solve, but certainly in the interests of the trade itself I am not prepared to make an offer to the British Government, saying, "We will pay for all Irish cattle slaughtered in England within a certain period." Supposing the move came from the other, side, I do not think I would agree to it. Surely you will admit that it is a dangerous thing to do. Surely anybody who knows anything about the trade will admit it is a highly dangerous thing to do in view of the way in which English thought is running on the matter at the present moment. Why are we running this danger? This is a question that could be settled in Committee. It should not have come to this. I say there is no way out of it. I quoted the report from the various cattle trade associations, and with all respect to Deputy McKenna, I do not agree that it is the unanimous view of the cattle trade. However, he stated his position. I say officially that my view is that what he has stated is not the unanimous view of the cattle trade. The unanimous view is more like what Deputy Gorey stated.

Of the exporters?

Mr. HOGAN

But they are only one association out of the six. Now what is the difference all about? What is the amount of money involved? The trade in cattle between Ireland and England is worth £20,000,000 yearly. I am giving round figures. Deputy McKenna read out the amount of money involved since 1914. The value of the cattle paid for, that is to say, the value of the cattle slaughtered in the landing places and paid for between 1914 and the year 1921 was £1,109. Since the Act of 1922 came into operation, that is, during 1923, when the biggest outbreak occurred in England—more serious than all the outbreaks for the last forty years—360 cattle, worth about £5,000, were slaughtered at landing places, so that £5,000 would probably insure this risk, taking all the probabilities into account for twenty years. That is the position. £5,000 would cover the trade between this country and England, which is about £20,000,000, and I am asked by the Cattle Traders' Association to put up a proposition which I know is unsound, which I know is in their worst interests, for the sake of £5,000. I am well aware that £5,000 is to the unfortunate farmers who lost their 360 head of cattle just as much as if the total was extended over more farmers to £5,000,000.

The Northern Government has the same difficulty. The Diseases of Animals Act in the North is administered by England. For the purposes of the cattle trade the North of Ireland is part of England. Yet they are treated the same as we are being treated. Mr. Coote, M.P., expressed his desire to become a rebel on the question. He wrote letters to the newspapers complaining of the desperate state of affairs that obtained in the North concerning this matter, and said he was beginning to think there was something in the Sinn Féiners all the same. They are in the same dilemma in the North as we are here. I know what they are doing. Our interests are identical in the matter. Are we to be forced by a trade controlling twenty-four millions worth of cattle exports for the sake of £5,000 to a proposition which may lead —where? I do not blame the cattle trade, because it is disorganised. They have five or six traders' associations. There is the Farmers' Union, there is the Royal Dublin Society, and there are two associations in the South of Ireland. One of these associations has taken up an absolutely sound line on this matter, but both these associations are fighting for the title of the South of Ireland Cattle Traders' Association. All this comes back to this, that the farmers of Ireland must organise themselves for business purposes, or else they will get nowhere. If there was any co-operation between the different Cattle Traders' Associations, this problem would be solved without coming to the Dáil to ask to have it solved temporarily, and would give us a chance of putting up a right proposition to the English Government on the matter. That is my view. The slaughter of these 360 cattle took place eight months ago. I know that there are a number of small farmers in the South who have lost practically their all in this matter. They are writing letters to the Department asking what we are going to do about it. Naturally the associations to which they belong kicked up a row, and asked what are we going to do. I have every sympathy with these men, and I realise their position fully. I know they are in an extremely bad way, but I put it to the trade that it is too bad that at this hour of the day that I should be forced to put up a proposition which is immature to the British Government, because the trade which controls twenty-four million pounds' worth of Irish cattle is not able to tide over a period of three months, and find the small sum of £5,000. That is what the case comes to. I am glad that Deputy McKenna raised this question, and I am sorry that there is not a longer debate on it. It is a very important question with many reactions. It has caused me a lot of thought and trouble for the last six months. I am dealing with another independent Government —the British Government—and I have not been able to make up my mind as to what the final solution of this problem is to be. I suggest to the Farmers' Party that they ought not to press this resolution.

I agree with the Minister when he states that the sum of £5,000 is comparatively small compared with the extent and the importance of this, one of our greatest industries, if not our greatest. That being so, I desire to ask him if we will consider the possibility of the Government being able to provide the small sum of £5,000 in the manner he has suggested—that is to say, by way of insurance to enable the small number of farmers who have suffered this unnecessary loss to be recouped, pending the final decision on this matter as between the Irish and the British Governments.

Mr. HOGAN

That is the whole point. Supposing I discussed this matter with the English Ministry of Agriculture, and it is open to anyone to say that you have paid this money, what would my position in the matter be, or what would be the position of the cattle trade? We will not admit liability for cattle slaughtered in England. That money should be paid by the British interests.

I would like to know if Deputy McKenna is pressing his motion.

In view of its importance, I think perhaps it might be as well to adjourn the further consideration of it. There are a number of Deputies who I know are anxious to speak on the question, and perhaps it might be as well if it were adjourned until next week.

I move the adjournment of the debate on this question until Wednesday next.

I second. Question put and agreed to

I beg to move that the Dáil adjourn until Wednesday next at 3 o'clock.

Question put and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until Wednesday, 9th April, 1924, at 3 p.m.
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