The question was that the Final Report of the Committee be adopted, and the debate was adjourned on Thursday, 3rd April.
FINAL REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WIRELESS BROADCASTING. - DEBATE RESUMED.
May I raise a point of order? The motion is that the Final Report of the Committee be adopted. That Report contains an alternative proposal. What would be the effect of the adoption of the Report? Can you give the Dáil any assistance?
Before you rule on that——
I have no intention of ruling on that, but I will hear Deputy Professor Thrift on it.
You have an excellent memory, and it is quite true that on the last occasion—not a very long time ago—when this matter was before us I rose to make a remark, and then it was decided that it would be better to postpone the debate. The remark that I was then about to make was that I thought it would shorten this debate very considerably if we made ourselves quite clear as to what the effect of the adoption of the motion would be, and I think that that is really the essence of the whole matter. At the same time it seems to me that it is quite a simple thing to say what the effect will be, because if the Final Report—I do not intend to refer to the whole volume, which I see Deputies are not provided with—is adopted, its recommendations become recommendations of the Dáil, but nothing further happens. Those recommendations, if involve financial expenditure, and the carried out, might, and probably would involve financial expenditure, and the Dáil itself cannot initiate financial outlay. Therefore it seems to me perfectly clear, for other reasons also, but for that in particular, that if the Dáil simply adopts this Report, as it has been asked to do by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the result would be that the whole matter goes back to the Postmaster-General and his Department, and that it is then for him to prepare a scheme, bearing in mind the recommendation of the Committee which would have become the recommendation of the Dáil, and giving those recommendations every consideration, which I am sure he will do, as they would be recommendations of the Dáil. He will then prepare a scheme, and if he finds that that involves a considerable outlay he will have to justify that to the Minister for Finance, and then the Minister for Finance will have to seek the consent of the Dáil to that outlay. That seems to me naturally the most radical course. The most valuable part of the Postmaster-General's speech was that part in which he expressed a perfect willingness to act upon such lines, prepare a scheme, and reconsider the whole matter. As a point of order has been raised I will not say any more until I hear what you have to say about it.
I really have nothing to say about the point of order except that it does not seem to me to be a point of order. It is a point of explanation. I think without giving the point an exact name that Deputy Thrift has given an excellent reply himself.
Well, if that is the course, I think really it is quite a simple matter for the Dáil to come to a conclusion as to what it will do with reference to this motion. The Postmaster-General—if we can carry our minds back so far, and I am sure we remember perfectly all he said on that occasion—did refer in the first part of what he said to the previous scheme which was before the Dáil. I do not want to argue about that scheme now; I could do so. All I will say in connection with it is this, that it has been my experience that if ever I imagine I am in a bargain, that I am getting all the good of the bargain, and that the other fellow has taken all the responsibility, there is a fly in the ointment somewhere. Whatever may be said about the company mentioned in the White Paper, I am convinced that it was not a purely philanthropic concern, and I think the Postmaster-General proved too much, or thought he did, when he said that all he was giving the company was the right to spend money, and that he was keeping all the control that was really desired. I think it turned out to be something of this kind: the control, if effective, would have to be a financial control, and that the financial control was not secured by the terms of the White Paper. I only refer to that because something similar in this or some other connection might arise again. The Postmaster-General passed on very properly to say that at this stage we had got to the point at which no other course was open to the Dáil except the adoption of the Report of the Committee, and I think he is quite right in that. The only practical course at present to adopt is to agree to this Report, and ask the Postmaster-General to go ahead; otherwise, as he said, the whole system will be delayed until things get cleared up.
One other matter was loosely referred to in the discussion, and that is the question of heavy expenditure. It is not for us, I think, at this stage to go into that. That will have to be considered later, when we get a definite scheme, and when the Minister for Finance, if he is going to back the scheme, asks for financial support. When that day comes I am sure that the Dáil will not be satisfied by being told that the expenditure is heavy; they will want to know what that expenditure is. They will want to know more than that. They will want to know what the receipts will be, and still more what good they will get for it, and what savings will be effected if that expenditure is carried out. I mention that for this reason, that since that final Report was issued I have come across some figures which are most interesting. They refer to England and Scotland. I am informed that less than twelve months ago there were 200,000 licences issued in these two countries, whereas at the present date, or up to a few weeks ago, there were over 600,000 licences issued. The Dáil may say that means very little for Ireland. If you take out of that the number of licences that are, or were a few weeks ago, applied for in Scotland, you will have some guidance which will be of importance when you come to consider the question of what the receipts are likely to be here. The figures for Scotland show that 87,000 licences were issued a few weeks ago. I think that is a very important figure to bear in mind. One other figure I would like to mention: the Report mentioned £5,000 as roughly the estimated cost of the equipment of the station. I have learned since the Report was issued that one of the British stations was recently completely newly equipped, so far as plant and everything of that kind goes, for the sum of £5,000, and I think that shows the Committee made a good guess. The Postmaster-General says there was no other course to adopt, and I think he was right, but, at the same time, he made a remark which showed he was not altogether happy: he said that it looked like nationalisation. I can quite imagine in other matters the Postmaster-General supporting a thing because it was nationalisation, and my arguing against it because it was nationalisation; but on this particular matter I am quite prepared to say that I support this broadcasting station as controlled by the Government just because it is nationalisation, at the present stage, and because the possible and probable developments of broadcasting are so important, so uncertain at present, that I do not think the State should let the control out of its own hands.
May I ask if we accept this Report does it mean that we must accept the first proposal of the Committee?
Which is that?
That is that it should be taken up by the State directly. That is the first recommendation, and in default of that that it should be controlled by them, but not financially. —that there should be no financial responsibility.
I am not able to construe the Report, of course. But the effect of adopting the Report is simply that the Dáil expresses an opinion in favour of the Report, whatever the Report may be. It has no legislative effect, and it has no effect in compelling financial expenditure. As has been explained, if the Report recommends the expenditure of money, which, as a matter of fact, it does, the Postmaster-General would, presumably have to bring that before the Minister for Finance, and the Minister for Finance would have to examine it. If he thought fit, he would have to bring in a proposal to the Dáil asking the Dáil to give him the money. That has been explained by Deputy Thrift, and I think it is quite clear. If the Minister for Finance examines it and decides not to bring it in, I take it some person would ask him a question and that he would reply to it.
It seems to me that this Report gives the Dáil the option of choosing two things.
Exactly.
And it is not compulsory on us to accept one or the other. I do not care to accept the Report as it is, but I accept the second part of it.
May I suggest that the interpretation is pretty much as Deputy Thrift has said. We are asked to adopt this Report, that is to say, the Dáil would make this Report its own. The Postmaster-General is the officer responsible for the administration of these services. He is directly responsible to the Dáil, and the Dáil, by accepting this motion, will have in effect given him an instruction, and he will proceed accordingly in the ordinary course. As has been pointed out, if it requires new expenditure he will get the usual approval for that expenditure, and I have no doubt that the Postmaster-General, if he thinks it desirable to come to the Dáil with a further White Paper, or a report of any kind, will do so, but if this motion is adopted it will be accepted by him as the adoption by the Dáil as a whole of the Report of the Committee, that is to say, making the Report of the Committee, its Report, and in effect its instruction to the Postmaster-General. That is the understanding that I have of the terms of the motion and the effect of the motion, if carried. Perhaps it would be well if the Dáil realised it.
Would I be in order in asking the Postmaster-General to give us a little explanation on that matter?
I think sufficient and very lucid explanations have been given by Deputies Thrift and Johnson, and my position in the matter is clear. I might say also that the course outlined by Deputy Thrift appears to me to be the correct one in the circumstances, and it can count on my whole-hearted, not halting, support. I say whole-hearted support, fearing anybody should think that I would not give my whole-hearted support in endeavouring to push forward a scheme of broadcasting on the lines suggested, in due course, after this Report is adopted. I do not see much point in going into details until this Report is adopted. In due course I will submit a scheme outlining the financial details to the Minister for Finance, and, whether he approves or disapproves, I presume it will be my duty to submit it to the Dáil in due course.
The Minister cannot submit it to the Dáil if there is not financial approval—not as a proposition, anyhow.
At any rate, as a report, I presume I can. I cannot permit myself, for the sake of the Dáil and the Committee, to be completely ousted in the matter.
Is doigh liom nach gádh dom morán a rádh, mar nior dubhradh morán i leith na tuarasgabhála seo. Sílim go mba cheart do'n Dáil glacadh leis an tuarasgabháil toisc nach bhfuil bealach nios fearr as. Thugamar a lán ama do'n cheist agus rinneamar an obair chó duthrachta agus a thiocfadh linn. Rinneamar ar ndícheall agus molamuid an tuarasgabháil do'n Dáil.
I do not think it is necessary for me to say much in favour of the adoption of the Report, because very few points have been made against it. The Minister for Finance, on this matter being discussed, charged the Committee with having gone outside their terms of reference, but the members of the Committee felt themselves in the position that as they had turned down the White Paper, containing the proposals of the Postmaster-General, it was necessary for them to put forward some other suggestions to the Dáil for approval. We did not want to come here with a merely negative report. As regards the question of the expenditure of money, there will be ample time for the Ministry of Finance to give consideration to that aspect of the question before proposals are submitted here by the Postmaster-General. As Deputy Professor Thrift has explained, the chief proposal put forward by the Committee would not entail any very large expenditure of money. The Postmaster-General, in his speech here last day, laid great stress on the musical side of the programme, but we think that the national interests are far more important—the benefits that can be gained by agriculture and other industries in the country through the means of broadcasting. I hope, in conclusion, the Dáil will accept this final Report of the Committee. I think there has been enough said on the matter already.
Question put and agreed to.