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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Jun 1924

Vol. 7 No. 21

DAIL EIREANN COURTS (WINDING UP) ACT, 1923, AMENDMENT BILL, 1924—SECOND STAGE.

Deputies will be aware that the winding up of Dáil Courts, other than Dáil Land Courts, was provided for in a Bill passed last year, which it is now proposed to amend by extending it to cover the operations of the Dáil Land Courts. When that Bill was going through here the land side of the Dáil Courts was deliberately omitted. It was believed that most of the business had already been covered by agreements between the parties, and it was hoped that the comparatively few cases outstanding would be settled in the same way. It is unfortunate that those hopes have not been fully realised. In a few cases, through the country—not very many— the refusal of parties to recognise the facts of the situation has created a state of affairs which calls for the intervention of the legislature. It has been thought proper to introduce this Bill, the main purpose of which is to enable the Dáil Courts Winding Up Commission to deal with the uncompleted business of the Dáil Land Settlement Courts in the same way as they are dealing with the uncompleted business of the other courts which functioned under Dáil Eireann in the past. The vital part of the Bill is Section 1, which provides in effect that whatever powers the Dáil Courts Winding Up Commission have, as regards the winding up of the business of Parish, District, Circuit and Supreme Courts, they shall have the same powers as regards the winding up of the Dáil Land Courts. Deputies will notice that in sub-section 1 the definition of Dáil Land Courts is not at first sight very clear, but the form of words set out there has been arrived at as the form best adapted to cover a difficult and rather confused set of circumstances. I cannot claim to have that full knowledge of the history of the Dáil Land Settlement Scheme, and I do not know anyone who has. It is rather a dark secret locked up in the bosom of the gentleman whose advice and assistance is not available to the present Government. A certain amount of it is known, but not everything, and the matter must simply be taken in its setting and in its perspective, and with advertance to the situation which existed at the time.

It was a time when meeting and discussion were frequently impossible and when important documents were drafted hurriedly and sometimes never disclosed in their entirety except to a few persons. The person who acted as Commissioner under the Dáil Land Settlement Scheme acted at considerable risk to himself and did a great deal of useful work, and I have no doubt whatever prevented the wholesale seizure of land in many counties. The Minister for Agriculture remarked here some time ago that in the spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of land, and young men's fancy lightly turned to thoughts of land in the Spring of 1919 with more than usual intensity, and a situation grew up which made it necessary to take rather summary action in dealing with the matter. In the west practically two whole counties became a common and everyone's stock was on everyone else's land, but that situation was reduced to order and to some normal dimensions by the operations of this improvised Dáil Land Settlement Commission. I do not think that any doubt was entertained at the time, nor is there any doubt entertained now, that the person who acted as Commissioner was carrying out the wishes of the Executive of the Dáil at the time. But even this person himself never got anything but a verbal assurance that he was a Commissioner and his reference and his scope were never clearly defined to him.

The Commission operated as a fact, and operated to a considerable extent. People came before it, submitted to its authority. In some cases people refused to appear as defendants in what were then called the British courts in land cases, because they contended that the plaintiff had in the Dáil Land Settlement Commission a proper remedy for his grievance. I might cite a typical average case, and it would be something like this. A dispute arises in 1920 as to the distribution of land. All parties agree, some of them probably unwillingly but under pressuse of local opinion, to abide by the decision of the Dáil Land Courts. The Dáil Commissioner hears the case and makes a certain ruling. Under this ruling A.B. gets less than he thinks he is entitled to. He waits for some time, and perceiving that the campaign is getting somewhat stronger every day and the possibility of defeat for the forces that might be generally described as Sinn Fein or Dáil Eireann, would seem to increase he would simply go to Dublin and start proceedings in the Four Courts against the other party to the agreement arrived at before the Land Settlement Commission. He probably asks for damages for trespass, and for an injunction. What would happen in that case is: there would be no appearance for the defence, and the court not unnaturally would give the plaintiff heavy damages and the injunction sought for. As regards that decree, the fate of it in most cases was that for the next year or so nothing particular happened upon it. Either the plaintiff did not give the writ to the under sheriff for execution, or if he did, the under sheriff did not execute it, because in fact the execution of all court judgments had practically come to a standstill, and the under sheriff was unlikely to pick out for execution that particular class of writ or judgment. He would anticipate resistance by the parties and so on. Now, as matters settled down and order began to appear, and the machinery of the administration of the country began to function, the situation changed, and from the second half of 1923 onwards the holders of decrees given in that way began to press the under sheriff to execute the writ, and in some cases even wrote formal complaints, which came to my department, that the decrees were not being honoured and being executed.

Now Deputies can visualise the situation. Here you had settlements or agreements arrived at, and arrived at fairly, solemnly before the improvised Commission of Dáil Eireann, subsequently broken by one of the parties seeking a redress in the British courts at the time; decrees given when only one party appeared, now in the hands of the sheriff, and the successful plaintiff in the British court calling for their execution. That is the position which this Bill is introduced to meet. The cases are not very numerous, but they are rather serious, and they are all certainly of a kind calculated to provoke trouble and considerable disorder and turmoil in certain counties if we fail to take action to put the thing on a proper basis. In all respects, except as regards these land cases, the position ceased to be embarrassing after August, 1923, when we passed the Dáil Eireann Winding-up Act. When the Commission under that Act began to operate it took control of these cases, and did substantial justice. In the land cases, however, the Dáil Eireann Commission, which has been functioning as a winding-up commission, had no jurisdiction, and the position with regard to those land cases remained unchanged until it became clear that nothing would cure it except legislation upon the lines of this Bill we are now considering.

Section 2 is added with a view to the appointment as one of the Dáil court commissioners, if it is found desirable, of one of the present Commissioners of the Irish Land Commission who was actively engaged in the work of the Dáil land courts, and is familiar with the various aspects of the matter— that is Mr. Commissioner O'Sheil. Apart from the personal aspect of the question, it seems desirable on general grounds that persons responsible for the carrying out of the Land Act should be closely associated with the Dáil Act Winding-up Court to ensure certain continuity in the work. Section 3 is a necessary adaptation as to the dates. The dates prescribed by the 1923 Act are long since passed, and new ones have to be provided. In Sub-section 2 Deputies will note that the new date is to apply for the purposes of the older Act also, but the date in question is the date up to which judgment can be re-opened, and it is thought that too short a period was allowed for this purpose in the Act we passed last year. Section 4, while explanatory, widens or makes clear the power of the Commissioners when dealing with appeals. Section 5 makes it necessary for intending appellants to put up a bona fide case for appeal before proceeding with the appeals. Section 7 makes better provision than was made under the 1923 Act for the satisfactory enforcement of the Commission's awards. This Bill is introduced to obviate injustice and to obviate disturbance and turmoil. Many Deputies have made representation to me which determined our course when bringing in the Bill. If I did not feel that the cases with which it purports to deal held possibilities of grave trouble and unpleasantness in certain counties I would not ask Deputies having regard to the crowded programme of legislation, to consider the matter this Session. But obviously there is a tangle which needs to be straightened out, and we consider that the only possibility of equitable treatment and of an equitable settlement of these matters lies within the provisions of this Bill by reference of the matter to the existing Dáil Eireann Winding-up Commission.

The Minister for Justice has explained the sections of the Bill dealing with the functions of the old Dáil Eireann Courts, and has explained that these courts functioned without any written law. They were really arbitration courts. They had no written law to guide them. These courts were set up on the assumption that under a very special set of circumstances the laws of property were not to prevail in all cases. The courts got no substitute law and they were a sort of arbitration courts. At the same time arbitration forms were not signed, and strictly speaking they were not arbitration courts, and for legal purposes could not be considered as such. Hence they had to do a certain amount of rough and ready justice. These courts, such as they were, saved both the owners of land and other people a lot of trouble, worry and expense. They dispensed a certain amount of rough and ready justice in all the circumstances that prevailed. It will be obvious to Deputies that, in cases of that sort, it is extremely hard, after the event, to draft Acts of Parliament which would do justice to all the complexities that would arise as a result of the functioning of courts of that sort. We tried to approach the question indirectly, and we took certain powers under the Land Act which, I say confidently, would make it quite easy to settle most of the cases that still remain unsettled and unfinished, that is to say, most of the cases which had come before the Dáil Eireann Courts and which are still uncompleted. As I say, we took those powers under the Land Act. The difficulty in practically 90 per cent. of the cases was the question of finance. An award would be made of a farm, let us say, to pass from A to B, B to give £3,000 for it. Generally the trouble was that A was satisfied to settle at the £3,000, but that B had no prospect of getting the money, and it would not suit him to go to the bank. He probably could not get the security to satisfy the bank, and in any event the terms were such that it was not possible for him to get the money. We took power under the Land Act to make advances in such cases, and by that means to put the Land Commission in a position to put up the money, and then 95 per cent. of the cases would settle themselves. Deputies, I think, will agree that once you get the ordinary law to function, and once you could get both sides free from anything in the nature of intimidation, and get it into their minds that the money is forthcoming, a settlement can be effected. That is what has happened in 98 per cent. of the cases.

These cases that have been settled are covered by assignments. There is no question that any of these cases will come before this court because every one is satisfied, and the money is forthcoming. There are, I should say, 10 of 12 cases still to be settled. In some of these cases the owners of the land were unreasonable, and there are people still who show a disposition to be unreasonable even under the existing powers. We have, as I say, reduced the problem to 10 or 12 cases. If you were to introduce a Bill a year ago for the purpose of clearing up the old Dáil Court cases you would be asking for trouble. Everybody would be rushing in just as if you were to introduce a Bill with the avowed object of giving land to soldiers. You could give land to soldiers where you had suitable applicants, but if you were to introduce a Bill with that avowed object you would be raising a regular hornet's nest and asking for trouble. Exactly the same thing would apply in this case. If we were to introduce a Bill to deal with this matter a year ago we would have these 290 cases that have been settled amicably between the parties coming into court, fighting the matter out and having the cases dragging on still. We have now only 10 or 12 cases left to deal with. We cannot apply any written law to them, but we must have a certain number of arbitrators who understand the position and who will go into these cases and who will try to do justice as between all parties as has been done in the 290 cases that I have referred to.

Question—"That the Bill be read a second time"—put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 12th June.

I beg to call attention to the fact that there are not 20 Deputies present.

Dáil counted and 20 Deputies were found present.

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